Fence being removed by Lake Sumter Landing where buffalo were!

[Indy-Guy]

The fence where the buffalo used to be are now being removed. This is the area that is Northwest of Buena Vista Blvd and Stillwater Trail by the play ground at Lake Sumter Landing. There are survey flags up. I looks like something is to be built there soon.

I don't feel that this had anything to do with the removal of the buffalo as there were several places that they kept buffalo and there is not construction at every site. It was only time before something was going to be built there.

I know perhaps a Ted's Montana Grill will go in there.

http://www.tedsmontanagrill.com/

[villages07]

Indy,

I rode by there last month when they were surveying....I asked one of the surveyors "what's up".....he said they will be building villas (and/or houses?) in that area. Have heard no corroborating facts, just what the surveyor said. I guess residential is better than more big box stores.

[SteveFromNY]

I don't feel that this had anything to do with the removal of the buffalo as there were several places that they kept buffalo and there is not construction at every site. It was only time before something was going to be built there.

I know perhaps a Ted's Montana Grill will go in there.

http://www.tedsmontanagrill.com/



I'm sure the building would have occurred on schedule even if the buffalo were still there. Ultimately, they were placeholders for the construction that would eventually occur anyway.

Went to a Ted's in PA and it's a really good restaurant! I'd love to see one in TV. They serve quite a bit of bison there. If they put one in TV I wonder if people would suspect THAT's where the buffalo went?

:o

(Only a joke...)

[ladykathleen]

I heard that they were building a bowling alley

[billethkid]

What we know for sure is the developer isn't spending the survey and fence removal dollars to make it look the the other side of the street!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Removing or moving the buffalo has been an ongoing process throughout different locations in TV as THEIR plan is implemented. Just like they did when it was time to implement Freedom Point.
My bet is on commercial use as they will get an ongoing income from the property VS selling land for dwellings of one kind or another.
They will let us know when THEY are ready.
While I think the buffalo were a neat attribute/attraction, they did little for property values.
On a positive note, all the property adjacent LSL has been successfully turned into value/service adding entities. What ever they do along Buena Vista and Old Mill Run will do like wise.

BTK

[samhass]

BTK, My money goes on commercial, as well. I think the chances of housing going in that area would be slim to none.

[Villages Kahuna]

...the development of real estate learn very early in their careers. I was involved for a long time in commercial real estate development and I know I was taught this rule early on.

The rule that is never violated, on purpose at least, is as follows...

The development of real property will ALWAYS be at its best use to create the highest value for its owner.


There are sometimes variances from this rule. The use of a piece of property zoned for high-rise construction for a single-level building would be a mistake by the developer and certainly wouldn't create the highest value. Of course, property that might otherwise be built upon can also be designated as a park or school or something else for the public good. The Village already has a huge proportion of its total acreage designated as recreation centers, pools, parks, wetlands, preserves, etc.

There was a lot of acreage devoted to buffalo grazing. That certainly wasn't the best use of the land that would create the highest value for its owner. Building on it, as appears now to be the case, won't reduce the amount of land devoted to public useage by any significant amount. I don't think anyone would classify the buffalo pastures as public parks. As many have said earlier, the disappearance of "our" buffalo was only a matter of time.

[chuckster]

:agree: And as an add on to the previous, Ag. land (fenced with cattle or crop land) is taxed at a lower rate than open undeveloped land adjoining residential or commercial property. Only makes sense to keep the buffalo/cattle until such time as the property is developed.

This is not common to the villages. When I lived in Miami Lakes. FL many moons ago, Senator Graham who owned a considerable amount of acreage did the same. His family, I believe, originally had a dairy prior to the development in the 70's.

[gnu]

Keeping animals, whether buffalo, cows or ostrich is a means for the landowner to claim the lands tax value is farm land thus keeping it's taxable value as low as possible. It is commonly done in all areas of Florida. The owner only keeps the animals as long as it takes for them to either sell or develop the land.

[renielarson]

Well...I would like to see another Katie Belle's or something similar there. Not a Cattle Baron Restaurant but a place for indoor music and dancing.

[villages07]

whatever,

thank you...my next move was to make a couple of calls tomorrow and see if I could find the "real truth". You got the scoop. It'll be interesting to see what type of houses and how they blend in with the surroundings. I'm sure it will be done tastefully. Talk about a primo location....walk to LSL.

[Whatever]

Allegedly, the site was approved for 202 homes and a recreation center, today.

[samhass]

Guess I'll have to pull my bet off the table. I did hear "houses" today from a reputable source. I'm still surprised.

[Ooper]

There may be other things scheduled for that area also but I agree with Kathleen and I do know for a fact that a 3rd bowling alley was on the agenda a few weeks ago.

[Indy-Guy]

They are working over there feverishly in typical villages fashion. Many trucks and they are digging. Saw several trucks that said water works or something to that effect. Much of the fence is gone.

[kd-dp2000]

Here is the latest....sorta from the horse's (buffalo's ?) mouth.....One of the Morse family is not happy with prospective buyers staying in "neighborhoods", and there has been some negative feedback on rental in the LSL Cottages. The buffalo field at Stillwater is to be upscale villas (similar to those at Spanish Springs, but with a different look), and possibly some designer homes. Supposedly, this is on a very fast track and everything else is on hold until this is done. The permits are all in and are being approved.

Planning like this takes months, so it was probably the "right" time to get rid of the buffalo there, in order to start this project.

Guess we'll have to watch and see if this is, indeed, the project.

[zcaveman]

The Villages, Florida

Who would of guessed. Freedom Point is now being built in a former buffalo range. Now this one?.

As said in some of the posts above, keeping livestock lowers the taxes and keeps the property open until an opportunity comes along.

[Barefoot]

BTK, My money goes on commercial, as well. I think the chances of housing going in that area would be slim to none.

Sam, I bet you $50,000 they will put residential in that area.



Guess I'll have to pull my bet off the table. I did hear "houses" today from a reputable source. I'm still surprised.

Sorry Sam, too late to pull your bet off the table. I win, I win, I win. :clap2:

[Indy-Guy]

I was on my way home and stooped and asked a workman what was going in there. He said Villas. I would have bet the other way but after some previous post and then asking I lean towards Villas being correct.

[samhass]

Barefoot, What is wrong with you??? You just won 72 mil in the lottery and you want to collect a measly 50k from me???? Gee whiz.

[Barefoot]

Sorry Sam, you're right .. with $72 mil I don't need your measly $50K. :chillout:

And now I can buy one of those new Villas in the buffalo field next to LSL. Life just has a way of working out. ;)

[samhass]

Ha Bare, I'm not sure how much yard space the new villas will have. I suspect they will be high density. Where will the pups play???

[Mintjulep]

I hope something good is going in there as the back of our new house will face it! :bow:

[Laura]

Today they were digging a very deep hole next to the fence. There are also stacks of stone that look like the stone they used to build all the stone walls around the tunnels. Lot's of speculation, and no confirmation yet.

[villages07]

Laura,

You are right...lots of speculation, no confirmation. Now, I understand the developer keeps his future plans as a close hold secret, but, wouldn't ya think that once the survey stakes went up, the fence came down, and heavy equipment/supplies moves in, that the Developer, by way of the Daily Sun, would publish an announcement as to what is being built there? A few solid facts would sure tone done rampant speculation. It's his land but it is our community and we are all keenly interested in what goes on around here.

So, SunReporter, TOTV member in good standing...are ya reading this? Can you convince your publishers to print an article about the LSL Buffalo field?

ps

The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida
The Villages, Florida the Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida The Villages, Florida

[Barefoot]

Ha Bare, I'm not sure how much yard space the new villas will have. I suspect they will be high density. Where will the pups play???

I was thinking ... your back yard?

[samhass]

07, nice point. TV is well aware of how rumors fly around here. One would think they could announce plans for the site in The Sun . Maybe we should start lobbying the Sun to run a story.

Barefoot..will you hire a picker upper for the back yard??? ;) ;)

[aln]

It's all got to do with marketing.
At any point in time there are prospective buyers for all the land around here and if a neighboring piece is going to be residential or commercial it could drive the price up or down for the prospective buyer. It's not that it's a big secret, it's just better not to announce any finalization CUZ nobody is really sure what anybody is thinking.

[Barefoot]

Barefoot..will you hire a picker upper for the back yard??? ;) ;)

I have Fumar in mind. I've heard that he has a lot of time on his hands and loves little dogs so much he doesn't mind picking up after them. :joke:

But I've seen a big gator in the lake behind your house. And I know that Fumar enjoys feeding little dogs to the gators. So perhaps that's not the ideal solution.

:cop: Sorry, off topic, now .. back to the Villas at LSL ..

[same]

Look at www.districtgov.org and then district 8 and the agenda for 8/15. It was in the Sun last week under "district reports".

[samhass]

That link does not seem to work. Would you tell us what it said?

[SteveFromNY]

That link does not seem to work. Would you tell us what it said?

Deb, try typing it in.

[jimt49]

A quick read looks like an application for 202 units. 20 homesites and 182 villas.

JimT

[Skip]

Yup! Old Mill Landing and Creekside Landing.

Skip

[travelstiles]

http://www.districtgov.org/slcdd/yourdistrict/images/dist8_agenda_080815.pdf
(http://www.districtgov.org/slcdd/yourdistrict/images/dist8_agenda_080815.pdf)

Pages 69-85 give maps of the plots and info.

[samhass]

They moved some big equipment in there today and have already started grading. At 6pm many construction trucks were still on site. The equipment looked impressive. Our Mr Morse does things in a big way. I have so much admiration for that man. Yes, he makes money from us all. He's a Capitalist. God Bless America and Gary Morse!!!!

[amgoldho]

I moved from South Florida (Boynton Beach) because developing got out of hand. The standard joke was, "Don't let your grass grow higher than 3/4" or it would be considered an open lot!"

I like a little breathing room, I like open places. There is not enough land available for building? Building is dynamic at the same time at what cost. The developer says the buffalo was removed because of law suits. Well. I guess we know why. He couldn't out straight and said we are going to be build here. Why all the BS and the fast tracking? Are they afraid of something?

How about building a church or synagogue or a performing arts center or a complex for all the clubs to meet and display? I would even settle for another Savannah Center!

I love The Villages and would recommend this place to anyone. What I do not like is subterfuge and that is exactly what we are seeing. Now if they can do it here they can do it anywhere and I know another possible place. There is a large tract of land opposite the Glenbrook Gate. I think this is a "preserve" or former buffalo grazing area. There are many survey stakes there, why??

Go ahead guys and gals these people have only one goal in mind, how much money can they make when the goal could how much money can we make and at the same time improve the quality of life in The Villages.

Thank you,
Alan Goldberg
Village of Poinciana

[samhass]

Dear Alan,
Despite my admiration for the Developer, I too, wish something else was going in that spot.
There are so many existing places to build houses. It's not my ground though, so I don't get a say.

[renielarson]

Sam

Perhaps you would get a say if the CDD's were run like state government.

[samhass]

OK Bright...picture me saying this as Scarlett O'Hara would. "Oh fiddledeedee, I don't know anythin about those CDD's, but if Mistah Morse owns the land, why can't he build little olde houses if he so desires??? Now I would rather have an entertainment type venue there of course, but darlin', ah don't own it. Where is that Rhett??? He could have bought that ground for me years ago. Oh well......tomorrow is anotha day."

[Muncle]

Sam

Perhaps you would get a say if the CDD's were run like state government.

just my $0.02, but if the cdds were run like a state government, tv would consist of a bunch of trailers/mobile homes/whatever on the other side of 27/441 and you'd be driving into leesburg for vittles.

no, the cdd concept implementation is not perfect and 190 could stand a relook -- not a repeal or major overhaul, but a tweak. as it is, i got to sleep nightly thanking my lucky stars that i've had brilliant, dedicated, unselfish folks like :edit: taking care of the interests poor ignorant apathetics like the rest of us. oh lord we are not worthy!!!!

[samhass]

Dearest Muncle, You seem to be feeling better..a little of that old -iss and vinegar coming out tonight. :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :-*

[Peachie]

But I don't like vittles... Muncle, it is so good to read your colorful comments. Feel better!

[renielarson]

Just a thought I had, nothing more. And...I'm certainly not out to change anything.

However, it still seems to me it would be a better system than having only one person making the decisions for 2 of the CDDs (with these 2 CDDs owning all the rec centers, executive golf courses, and all the land around and near both squares). ??? ??? ???

Personally, I would like to see a second Katie Belle's at Lake Sumter Landing. Having another indoor dance hall would be nice on rainy, chilly, or hot nights in addition to a place to go after the Squares close.

[amgoldho]

Ah, seems like protest is "Gone With The Wind". Oh, for the days of 1968 again in this instance.

Well, if they are going to build "upscale villas", then they are going to need "upscale" resturants (aka Bonefish Grill). The opportunity is there with two large resturants gone from Lake Sumpter plus a large open storefront. Wonder how Joseph A. Bank is doing?

What kind of resturants could work? How about a good Jewish deli like Ben's in West Boca? How about an English pub/chop house where Dominicks was? How about a Spanish/Portugese resturant? How about a resturant like Angelo's (I think its either Eustis or Tarvares)? Morton's?? LOL. I am not knocking the low end resturants that are here at the same time the median income is $88,000, so tell me is it greed or demographics?

One more thing, rich (nice rich people) like to have something named after them like a building, that will never happen with their mindset.

I want to say one more thing I wrote an email to the POA and HOA and did not even get the courtesy of an acknowledgement.

I love this place and always will at the same time from here on, I will tell people all that glitters is not gold. The best advertising in the world is word of mouth! Think about it!!

[Russ_Boston]

I love this place and always will at the same time from here on, I will tell people all that glitters is not gold. The best advertising in the world is word of mouth! Think about it!!


I don't understand this statement. Are you saying that you love this place and will give it BAD word of mouth? OR Are you saying that you love this place and will give it GOOD word of mouth?

Why on earth, even if you thought otherwise, own an investment in some location and then give it BAD word of mouth to endanger your investment?

Just wondering.

[Peachie]

I thought the same thing, Russ... if your soup is flat, wouldn't you add salt vs spitting in the pot? :dontknow:

[amgoldho]

OK, why would I say I love it here and then say to a possible new resident what has happened and could that happen again.

Because I came here with the belief that the developer always would put residents into consideration in future planning and building. Obviously this is not the case when you are left with the impression when you are looking at what was planned and would remain that way. Now every piece of open land except the golf courses is open to building. Freedom Point and Old Mill Landing are the examples. Isn't there a point of no return?

Yes, I will tell possible new residents what could happen and if they can live with that, fine. I will just pass along a warning. The ecology (I am far from being a greenie) of Florida is a fragile ecology and if the ecology is altered and/or disrupted the chance of something going wrong increases. South Florida has a long term water issue which could be remedied by the Everglades Restoration Project which will cost billions of dollars. If smart growth was the rule this issue could not happen. I will grant the developer one very important observation, the developer builds according to the contour of the land and does not tear it apart whether be a residential subdivision or commercial. Everything built seems to fit and is low profile. Other developers should be like ours in that respect.

I would be less angry and hurt, if the developer said to us, "there is open land which we could develop in the near future. This would either be residential or commercial." They would probably get more suggestions as to what to do with the open land then go behind the back.

[Peachie]

Alan, I don't know if it because we live in an area that has had so much grow in the last 25 years but when hubby and I first visited The Villages four years ago, we wondered what would be put in the undeveloped areas where the buffalo roamed. Even four years ago there was conversation in The Villages that the buffalo were on that land to make the taxes more palatable until the areas were developed. (Hubby and I have seen a lot of beautiful farmland in the Midwest gobbled up for development.) We, also, would like to know what is planned for those areas but I'm sure there is a masterplan for this community and the developer is not looking for our input for changes. If they start filling in the lowlands and lakes, we will then be in trouble.

[samhass]

I guess I'm confused. Who owns the land..we or he? If he owns the land, why shouldn't he be able to develop it, within zoning standards, as he sees fit? He seems to have a grand master plan. His plan has made TV a highly desirable place to live in the US. We are here and many more want to come. Utopia does not exist...but TV is kind of close.
Going back to the buffalo, you had to know they would never be a permanent fixture and were simply a tax tool. We all use tax tools. Why is there this constant demonization of Gary Morse? He is richer and way smarter than I am. That does not awaken the green eyed monster within me. We all made the choice to live here. We could and should try to improve our living conditions here in TV with constuctive suggestions.
I have never felt the developer "went behind my back." He doesn't require my permission or consent to do much of anything.

[ladykathleen]

When we moved here there was a lawsuit against the developer building Sumpter Landing brought against him because of concerned citizens worried about the water tables in this area and the impact that so much development would have on the land. Much open space was here all that not so long ago. Many residents who bought here were "promised" not written, that no development would take place in several areas. I attended a garden meeting a year ago by a former resident who is very distressed with the loss of natural habitat that was supposed to remain undeveloped for wildlife. There had been an orginal plan that we saw and were told about, about what would be developed in the future ,however that is not so today. Is this a situation where like the Talk Host the railroad was not shown on the Villages maps of that time.

[samhass]

I hate that talk Host has to endure the train. This subject is not about the train. It is about the Lake Sumter Landing area.
People will continue to move to Florida. Central Florida is a wonderful place to live on many levels. You will not stop the influx of people into this area. High density dwelling seems preferable to urban sprawl.
More than once I have seen the attitude " I was here 2,4,5,10,___ years ago. You new people should stay up north where you came from. Is that the real issue here? We have what we want and all you newbie wannabees should not mess up our lifestyle."

[SteveFromNY]

More than once I have seen the attitude " I was here 2,4,5,10,___ years ago. You new people should stay up north where you came from. Is that the real issue here? We have what we want and all you newbie wannabees should not mess up our lifestyle."


Deb, I agree with your position. Lots of the old not-in-my-back-yard syndrome. I can't imagine how naive someone would have to be to see that large swath of land alongside the hotel and across from that HUGE empty parking lot and think it was going to remain a buffalo pasture forever. It's going to be developed by the evil developer that developed all the rest of the wonderful things in TV. What has the developer done wrong already? Some may find fault in certain areas, but overall everything seems to add to the desirability of TV. Look around at the open space that will stay. The golf courses (yes, of course there are golf courses that won't be developed), the "preserves" that are all around, even just the roads and pools and rec centers - which aren't open space per se, but still not developed with folks living there. Overall the entire effect is positive, and apparently I am not alone thinking that.
IMHO, if the developer puts something in place in that empty cow field, it will be a boon to the area, only making it a little more desirable to be here. I know he (they) are making lots of money, and it's in their continued best interest not to :edit: it up so they can keep doing so.

[dianerk]

We purchased in 2006. Asked at that time what would go across from Barnes & Noble where the buffalo were at that time. (We actually assumed it would NEVER stay a buffalo pasture.) We were told it was zoned for future buildout. Just my humble input to this bashing of the developer.

[Peachie]

Sam and Steve, stand up and take a bow, :agree: :agree: :agree:.

[samhass]

I think most people would assume it would never stay a buff pasture. jbsmom.. you still haven't had that cat coiffed??
Peachie, thanks..sometimes it gets scary taking a stand. People get very passionate about these issues.



We purchased in 2006. Asked at that time what would go across from Barnes & Noble where the buffalo were at that time. (We actually assumed it would NEVER stay a buffalo pasture.) We were told it was zoned for future buildout. Just my humble input to this bashing of the developer.

[Peachie]

You're right, Sam, but many people read this forum and it's so important to present the "other side of the coin". Working together to build up vs tearing down or defaming our community reaps greater rewards. One may want to inform their friends of upcoming changes but that doesn't require blackening the community eye. I think the hardest principle for some people to grasp is perhaps the developer is doing what developers do and not trying to ruin what they have created. (Now don't prove me wrong, Mr. Morse.....)

[downeaster]

It seems every last son-of-a-gun wants to be the last son-of-a-gun to move to Florida.
Or, as submariners say, Close the hatch and take her down, I'm aboard.

DC

[billethkid]

Let's see, the developer has been dong this successfully for almost 40 years. The very obvious results over the years and to date is they do it better and better and better.
I know of no developer who would go to the masses to test for reaction....see what they want next....can you imagine the multiple inputs....multiple interests...LACK OF PROGRESS!!!!
The Villages I suspect attains approval by residents of 90%++. And of course like everything else, the naysayers (minority) seem to be louder than those of us who are happy and satisfied.
Makes one wonder why they bought here in the first place.
I believe the developer does an outstanding job of providing what the market wants in housing and amenities. There is a different critical mass here now than when the built things like bowling alleys and Katie Bells. The critical mass has worked wonders in attracting national brands of all sorts.
The more they develop, the better it continues to get for us property owners including retaining property values. And in that process the developer et al are getting rich(er).
Aren't we blessed? Because if they weren't, then there would be cause for concern.

We loved it here 5 years ago and like it more each year.

BTK

[renielarson]

The Villages is no different than anywhere else. The developer can do whatever he wants with the land as long as the plan follows zoning ordinances. Of course, not everyone is going to agree with every plan. That's human nature. However, if the developer has not violated any ordinances then he has the privilege of carrying out his plan regardless of what you or I may think.

amgoldho: I am confused by the statement you made of "I would be less angry and hurt, if the developer said to us, "there is open land which we could develop in the near future. This would either be residential or commercial." They would probably get more suggestions as to what to do with the open land then go behind the back." Please explain how Mr. Morse supposedly (by your claim) went behind anyone's back? What do you base that belief?

Mr. Morse is doing his job of developing the land he owns of which he has every right to do. I don't know of any place that requires a developer to ask for citizen input.

[SteveFromNY]

I know of no developer who would go to the masses to test for reaction....see what they want next....can you imagine the multiple inputs....multiple interests...



With all due respect BTK, I think the developer HAS gone to the masses and asked for what they want. I think you can see the results of that in the changes made over the course of the 40 years. The changes made have been driven by the folks buying the homes. Things like wider golf cart trails and tunnels are a great example of ways TV has become even more attractive than it was. Perhaps there was no survey taken, but folks have put their money where their mouths are and bought into the improvements made.

Personally, I can't wait to see what improvements are made below 466A. I think it will be even better.

[`willy]

OXFORD -- The most hated man in Sumter County lives on a country road in a concrete-block house that he built himself. On his 55 acres he grows hay for sale.

He also raises Cain.

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/07/07/State/One_man_s_crusade.shtml

[Peachie]

Willy, is the article, "Nudist condo nettles some neighbors, ;D :redface:

Seriously, I think I missed the article in the link, would you advise me...

[SteveFromNY]

Willy, is the article, "Nudist condo nettles some neighbors, ;D :redface:

Seriously, I think I missed the article in the link, would you advise me...


Scroll down - it's at the bottom of the link.

Seems to be some very ill-informed quotes in the article. Farnsworth "wishes he could eat in the restaurants but they're all members only" - a crock of :edit:

[iaudit]

Page down. The article is at the bottom of the headlines.

[Peachie]

I found it, thank you.

[graciegirl]

I have been speed reading and probably didn't get this right.

I know that when we moved into a newly built housing area in West Chester, Ohio 35 years ago, I had hoped for but couldn't dream of the wonderful area it has become. Wonderful houses, people, schools, restaurants, library. JUST dazzling. All along there was a low chant. no change, no change no change. But not from us. Now I see all the folks who didn't want change eating at the restaurants, seeing their grandchildren do well at the schools etc.

I am older and I think I have learned a few things. One is if it ain't broke, why fix it. What in heavens name is so wrong with more people moving to TV except for the mild inconvenience of traffic and waiting to be seated at restaurants. I do believe that with the water all around this peninsula that someone will figure out how to desalinate it and restore the water table.

It could be I simplify. But I really don't think the sky is falling. YET.

[swrinfla]

A modest observation:

Ever since Harold Schwartz passed away, there have been small rumblings that his family ("The Morses," "The Developer," "Those Guys") cared nothing about the residents, only about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

To some extent, I think that money does, indeed, drive their lifestyle. They certainly do NOT have the reputation that HS did. However, I agree wholeheartedly that they have the right to do what they want with their property.

It's just too bad, on t'other hand, that they don't have a better "bed-side manner." The sudden destruction of the buffalo ground near Lake Sumter gives many a bad taste in the mouth. I note that there is still no mention in the Daily Sun's Construction Update about this project. Nor, about whatever is happening east of the Homewood Assisted Living Center, where many old and beautiful live oaks are being cut down!

It's too bad that there are many obvious flys in the ointment!

SWR

[SteveFromNY]

The sudden destruction of the buffalo ground near Lake Sumter gives many a bad taste in the mouth.



As I recall, the buffalo were gone for quite some time and had been replaced by cows, no?

Since the day I asked my R/E agent about the buffalo - and he told me about the whole tax-dodge concept - I knew they were nothing more than a place holder until the developer decided to do what he does best - develop.

If you liked looking at the tree in my lawn, or the car in my driveway, or my statue on the lawn (heaven forbid), would I be in any way obliged to discuss the trimming of the tree or moving the car or painting the statue with you before I did?

Maybe it's me, but it was undeveloped land sitting in the middle of a huge sprawling development holding a few cows while it waited its turn. It belongs to the developer, and he didn't masquerade anything about it, it was going to be developed, either into a commercial or residential complex. Now you think he owed you the courtesy of telling you what he was developing there? I truly don't get it.

What do you think is going to happen to the land between CVS and WalMart along 466 where a few cows graze? Do you seriously think it's going to remain a cow pasture? Did anyone feel offended that some of it became the Bone Fish Grill, or CVS, or Beall's without letting all of us know? I don't get it!

[Russ_Boston]

Welcome back Muncle - Nice to read you again!

To what point in time would some of you people like the Morse family to roll things back to?

Let's look at this from a business POV. If the new houses that they are building are still selling in this economy THEY must be doing something correct. Yes? If you now have major retail centers (the Wal-Marts, Target etc.) and hundreds of restaurants that you never had THEY must be doing something correct. Yes? If the house that you bought in 1998 is now worth 2 or 3 times what it was worth then THEY must be doing something right. Yes?

From an environmental standpoint when I look at the TV map I see numerous Krestel, Owl etc. preserves etc. I assume that this are permanent preserves and will not be built on. If that is the case then THEY must be doing something correct. Yes?

TV is more desirable today than it was 4 years ago, or 10 years ago or 20+ years ago when HS started this thing. THEY must be doing something correct. Yes?

Just my 4 cents worth from an outsiders perspective.
Russ

[amgoldho]

We moved to West Boca Raton in July 1992 (yep just before Andrew) with our two daughters who were still in high school. We moved to Boca because of the school system. We lived in a subdivision of 7000 homes called Loggers Run.

Ok, During the first few years during the rainy season, there would be rain like clockwork and the thunderstorms would line up along I-95 and move inland. Water and rain was plenty. Then the building increased where we lived out towards the Everglades and between the turnpike and 441. Each year the rainy season seemed shorter and each year the starting point for the thunderstorms was further west until by the time we moved most of the rain was falling west of the turnpike. Water became and still is an issue. I talked to a person well versed in climate and he said if they keep building over the "open" land, water will become a serious problem. South Florida's water issue is greater than ours yet we with our own water system are on a form of rationing. To desalinate is a costly endeavor and guess who pays for it, the taxpayer.

Now we have a community that at buildout (2011??) we will have a population of 101,000+. With smart growth one takes into consideration the infrastructure, land use, etc. This developer is one of the best in this country. To plan out a community like this, is truly amazing and I truly thank him for that. At the same time one must consider the ramifications and the future quality of life.

If you have not been to South Florida, go there and see if you would like to live there.

Also this is a rural society not urban or suburban which makes this area almost unique. There are some beautiful horse farms, ranches which I hope never go.

I am more concerned about the quality of life for the future, not property values. Maybe I am an idealist, well so be it. Go take a ride in your golf cart and look at the open land and picture houses or whatever in those areas, could get a little suffocating.

Progress comes at what price?

[captain1202]

All the offers of input from the posters are the very reason that the developer should do what he wants. It's worked so far! With home sales in TV 17% ahead of last year, who are we to argue?

Personally, I love coming home for my 10 days off work and just enjoying the surroundings, whatever they may be.

[Peachie]

Alan, I have the distinct feeling you were unaware of the size and scope of planned Villages development. I can't believe you thought you would be able to control the development after you moved in to your home. And as for the water issue, surely you have heard about the individual down the road in Sumter County, I believe, who is selling the water and able to ship it out of the area. How desperate can water conditions be if the powers that be see fit to let that happen? Maybe that is the first place to start to control the water problem, stop shipping it out of central FL.

[Barefoot]

Mr. Morse is doing his job of developing the land he owns of which he has every right to do. I don't know of any place that requires a developer to ask for citizen input.

Exactly right. Some people state with surprise that the the developer is selling "our" plazas and "our buffalo fields"!

We should be thankful that the developer had the creativity, energy, financial resources and vision to create this paradise for us to enjoy.

[rshoffer]

Exactly right. Some people state with surprise that the the developer is selling "our" plazas and "our buffalo fields"!

We should be thankful that the developer had the creativity, energy, financial resources and vision to create this paradise for us to enjoy.
I concur. Anyone in his position wakes up everyday knowing he's gonna take a lot of shots from a lot of directions. Like they say, "The tall trees take the breeze". Face it, The entire Morse family has all the moola they could ever want. If they didn't have their heart and soul into this venture they could have cashed in their chips long ago and done what most Villigers have done... "retired".

[rshoffer]

We moved to West Boca Raton in July 1992 (yep just before Andrew) with our two daughters who were still in high school. We moved to Boca because of the school system. We lived in a subdivision of 7000 homes called Loggers Run.

Ok, During the first few years during the rainy season, there would be rain like clockwork and the thunderstorms would line up along I-95 and move inland. Water and rain was plenty. Then the building increased where we lived out towards the Everglades and between the turnpike and 441. Each year the rainy season seemed shorter and each year the starting point for the thunderstorms was further west until by the time we moved most of the rain was falling west of the turnpike. Water became and still is an issue. I talked to a person well versed in climate and he said if they keep building over the "open" land, water will become a serious problem. South Florida's water issue is greater than ours yet we with our own water system are on a form of rationing. To desalinate is a costly endeavor and guess who pays for it, the taxpayer.

Now we have a community that at buildout (2011??) we will have a population of 101,000+. With smart growth one takes into consideration the infrastructure, land use, etc. This developer is one of the best in this country. To plan out a community like this, is truly amazing and I truly thank him for that. At the same time one must consider the ramifications and the future quality of life.

If you have not been to South Florida, go there and see if you would like to live there.

Also this is a rural society not urban or suburban which makes this area almost unique. There are some beautiful horse farms, ranches which I hope never go.

I am more concerned about the quality of life for the future, not property values. Maybe I am an idealist, well so be it. Go take a ride in your golf cart and look at the open land and picture houses or whatever in those areas, could get a little suffocating.

Progress comes at what price?
I don't believe you are an idealist. Some people are never satisfied or able to see the glass as half full. If we all stay as active as we can in the District gov't I believe we can trust the developer to do what he's done so far... which is to create a retirement community that is the envy of the Nation.

[villages07]

Today's Daily Sun had a small photo of lawn grader machines with caption stating they were clearing land for 182 villas and 20 designer homes in field by Old Mill Run. Nothing splashy.

As a topic cop aside for all of you out in the hinterlands, they also said Red Lobster site prep has begun and restaurant will open in Jan 09.

[graciegirl]

Welcome back Muncle - Nice to read you again!

To what point in time would some of you people like the Morse family to roll things back to?

Let's look at this from a business POV. If the new houses that they are building are still selling in this economy THEY must be doing something correct. Yes? If you now have major retail centers (the Wal-Marts, Target etc.) and hundreds of restaurants that you never had THEY must be doing something correct. Yes? If the house that you bought in 1998 is now worth 2 or 3 times what it was worth then THEY must be doing something right. Yes?

From an environmental standpoint when I look at the TV map I see numerous Krestel, Owl etc. preserves etc. I assume that this are permanent preserves and will not be built on. If that is the case then THEY must be doing something correct. Yes?

TV is more desirable today than it was 4 years ago, or 10 years ago or 20+ years ago when HS started this thing. THEY must be doing something correct. Yes?

Just my 4 cents worth from an outsiders perspective.
Russ




Russ. I agree with your very positive, very accurate post. :agree: :agree: :agree:

I personally have only heard this criticism of the developers on TOTV but never have heard it in TV when we am there. I haven't read a POA newsletter, just exerpts. I wonder why they make me feel not wanted as a newcomer sometimes here on this forum.

I certainly didn't want to spend my final years trying to run a golf course community. We did that once and believe me it isn't fun. A group of residents bought the course we lived on when it went on the market and I thought my neighbors had common sense. WRONG. Anything by committee is just a place for people to showcase their personal ideas. I am glad that the developers are running it and running it so well. I keep hearing about small things, not big things. May we all outlive any change in TV.

[samhass]

Amen, Gracie!!!!! :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup:

[downeaster]

.

I certainly didn't want to spend my final years trying to run a golf course community. We did that once and believe me it isn't fun. A group of residents bought the course we lived on when it went on the market and I thought my neighbors had common sense. WRONG. Anything by committee is just a place for people to showcase their personal ideas.

Thanks Gracie, may we all listen well to your message.

For those who have never experienced what Gracie posted, beware. There are hundreds of cases just like hers. Satanic developer leaves only to be replaced by dozens of imps each one with mischief in mind. I, too, have had the same experience. Among other things, it turns neighbor against neighbor. Of all of the reasons I moved from that subdivision to The Villages, that was number one.

DC

[NJblue]

When I look at open land in the TV area, if it is not a wildlife preserve and not a golf course, I assume that it will at some point be developed. That's the nature of the beast and as some have pointed out, along with development comes many positives.

In our case, we will be looking out over Rooseveldt golf course toward 466A. On the other side of 466A is open land. Our agent told us that eventually it will be developed "as houses". That's fine and to be expected. However, I am a bit concerned that "houses" may morph into McDonalds, Burger Kings and Home Depots. I am less fine with that concept, but I doubt that I would have any legal grounds to stand on in protesting a verbal comment made by a sales agent.

However, where I would draw the line with my level of acceptance is if the golf course, which I paid a hefty premium to be on and which the developer was willing to accept, turns into something other than a golf course. If that were to ever happen, I'm hoping that the number neighbors and fellow TVers willing to join in a legal battle would give the developer pause. In my mind, such a transformation clearly constitute fraud - when a developer makes a large profit selling a piece of land with a price premium for an amenity, there is an implicit understanding that that amenity will not be arbitrarily removed. But, until that happens, I am willing to give the Morse's the benefit of the doubt that their ethics are above that sort of thing.

[Peachie]

Mr. Peachie and I received a resounding endorsement of The Villages while playing a round of golf with two golfers we met at tee time in April of this year. While waiting to tee at one of the holes, I asked one of the gentlemen how long he had lived in The Villages. He sheepishly admitted they had bought here several years ago but had moved away and then moved back. It appears that he and his wife were unhappy with the developer and left to live in another Florida golf community and then moved to another but nothing came close to what they had left. They returned to The Villages and they were not leaving again. That disclosure certainly made Mr. Peachie and me think we should keep drinking the water...

And think about those golf courses, I believe they are the biggest attraction to the area. Who the heck is going to buy homes or condos built on top of the golf course if there is no
golf or activity to interest them. Density can be found anywhere, amenities are what will draw future homeowners. Now if they find oil under the golf courses, they may have to drill but that's another thread :o

[NJblue]

Well, what you say would be true if ALL of the golf courses were eliminated, but if they just eliminated one or two courses which could have far more value as say a shopping center or even more houses, they would still be able to advertise "free" golf as an amenity.

[Russ_Boston]

NJB - Don't some of the CC courses belong now to the CDDs? If so then the 'developer' can no longer sell them, they belong to us (through the CDD extension if you own in that district). Once all the courses and other amenity facilities have been sold over to the districts then the developer can not just build on them with other uses.

At least that is my take on the government of the future (and some present) in TV.

[renielarson]

However Russ...

The developer could raze all the Rec Centers and Executive Golf Courses and build whatever he wants there.

This is a scenario I don't think for a minute would happen....but it could....since Morse owns all of these.

[`willy]

The Country Club golf courses and the polo fields are privately owned

Willy

[`willy]

Russ
This link might help
WILLY http://thevillagesfl.blogspot.com/2005/09/who-owns-recreation-centers-executive.html

[drr47]

All very interesting, but if you want to know the future, just go to Bushnell to the "Planning and Zoning " department. They have the complete plan on file and it public record. It's call a DRI, its Directive of Regional Impact. This is the document that the developer must follow. It will tell you what will be residential, commercial etc. They can change this document, but must go through many hoops to do so. Hope this helps.

[forever_villager]

However Russ...

The developer could raze all the Rec Centers and Executive Golf Courses and build whatever he wants there.

This is a scenario I don't think for a minute would happen....but it could....since Morse owns all of these.


Brightspot:

Not entirely correct. The CDD's own the Executive Courses and the Recreation Centers. At least the ones that have been sold to the CDD's which is currently Districts 1-5. Future amenity sales will take place to purchase the newer ones.

The only golf courses the Developer owns are the Championship (Country Club) courses.

[renielarson]

Forever_Villager...wrong, oh so, wrong

It's a question of what CDD's own what. The Central CDD's (Lake Sumter Landing and Spanish Springs...there IS a difference in CDDs) are owned by the owners of the land. Who owns the land there? The developer. Those 2 CDD's not only own all the land at both Squares but also own every single Executive Golf Course and every single Rec Center in the Villages.

If you don't believe me, then read the facts listed under "Links" at the top of this page: http://thevillagesfl.blogspot.com/2005/09/who-owns-recreation-centers-executive.html

[chelsea24]

Here's a piece of the puzzle. When I was asking about the new Havana Country Club, I was told that the same people who own Cane Garden would be in charge of Havana. Well, I love Cane Garden, so I was very happy with that. They I asked who those people were, and the answer I got was "The Villages!" :dontknow:

[forever_villager]

Forever_Villager...wrong, oh so, wrong

It's a question of what CDD's own what. The Central CDD's (Lake Sumter Landing and Spanish Springs...there IS a difference in CDDs) are owned by the owners of the land. Who owns the land there? The developer. Those 2 CDD's not only own all the land at both Squares but also own every single Executive Golf Course and every single Rec Center in the Villages.

If you don't believe me, then read the facts listed under "Links" at the top of this page: http://thevillagesfl.blogspot.com/2005/09/who-owns-recreation-centers-executive.html


That is beside the point. They are still owned by the CDD's, not the Developer. What you seem to be objecting to is the actual membership of the Board of Supervisors - elected versus appointed. That is dictated by FS Chapter 190, not the Developer. As majority landowner, yes, he appoints the Board members to the commercial districts and those numbered districts not yet populated by majority residential landowners.

But, a CDD is still a CDD regardless of the composition of the Board. All 12 CDD's still follow the same rules, regulations and state statutes. Additionally, CDD's are not allowed to reduce the "level of service" when an amenity sale takes place. Therefore, nothing will ever happen to the rec centers or the golf courses.

And, for clarification, they do not own the squares. They only maintain the squares with a maintenance assessment. The commercial properties within the squares pay this assessment. The squares are owned by the Developer, not the CDD's.

[renielarson]

You are correct Forever Villager that the squares are owned by the developer along with all the other land that is part of the Central CDDs.

Now, let's discuss the CDD's. Who sits on the boards of the CDD's? Only those who are appointed by the majority landowner. Who is the majority landowner in the Central CDD's (Lake Sumter Landing and Spanish Springs)? The developer because he is the ONLY landowner. So, who basically "owns' the two Central CDD's? I don't think I need to answer that one. I'm sorry, but there IS a difference in the CDDs. Two are owned and controlled by the developer...the remaining CDDs are controlled and owned by the residents when the area has been built out. Don't tell me that you are going to say that a CDD is still a CDD. Maybe in definiton of the term but in actuality...here in The Villages, there IS a difference....based on who (how many) have ownership.

Repeating myself, you are correct with who owns the squares...they are owned by the CDD's that purchased them from the developer at his asking price without question (I'm supposing since they have purchased golf courses at his high inflated asking prices without question.).

You are probably going to misunderstand me but I'm in favor of Gary Morse and have no complaints with what he has accomplished. I applaud him and his father for all they have done for us. Without them, I wouldn't be the happy Villager I am today. All I'm doing here is educating you, and others about CDD's. Nothing more. It's the teacher in me.

[forever_villager]

You are correct Forever Villager that the squares are owned by the developer along with all the other land that is part of the Central CDDs.

Now, let's discuss the CDD's. Who sits on the boards of the CDD's? Only those who are appointed by the majority landowner. Who is the majority landowner in the Central CDD's (Lake Sumter Landing and Spanish Springs)? The developer because he is the ONLY landowner. So, who basically "owns' the two Central CDD's? I don't think I need to answer that one. I'm sorry, but there IS a difference in the CDDs. Two are owned and controlled by the developer...the remaining CDDs are controlled and owned by the residents when the area has been built out. Don't tell me that you are going to say that a CDD is still a CDD. Maybe in definiton of the term but in actuality...here in The Villages, there IS a difference....based on who (how many) have ownership.

Repeating myself, you are correct with who owns the squares...they are owned by the CDD's that purchased them from the developer at his asking price without question (I'm supposing since they have purchased golf courses at his high inflated asking prices without question.).

You are probably going to misunderstand me but I'm in favor of Gary Morse and have no complaints with what he has accomplished. I applaud him and his father for all they have done for us. Without them, I wouldn't be the happy Villager I am today. All I'm doing here is educating you, and others about CDD's. Nothing more. It's the teacher in me.


I appreciate your efforts in "educating" me. Just for grins and giggles, call the District office in the morning and ask them who "owns" the squares. Better yet, check with the Clerk of Court for Lake and Sumter Counties. You will learn that it is the Villages of Lake-Sumter, Inc., not the CDD's. Any of the CDD's. Also, you shouldn't think about the center districts in terms of just the squares. The Village Center CDD is responsible for all amenities north of 466 and Sumter Landing is responsible for those amenities south of 466 that have been sold to the CDD (eventually it will be all areas except for Brownwood which will be a 13th CDD). Their only involvement in the actual squares (SS and LSL), again, is the maintenance (landscaping, janitorial, repair, etc.)

And, just out of curiosity, how did you learn about CDD's. Attend the CDD orientation? Read Chapter 190? Attend meetings? Talk to board members and District staff? I have done all of these and feel very comfortable in my knowldege of Chapter 190, The Florida Statues, the public records law and how the CDD's operate. It is the first "research" project I engaged in when moving here.

I have worked for both state and local municipalities my entire career. After watching those who run and operate the CDD's, they conduct themselves very much like any local governmental agency would. I must say, I have been quite impressed. I strongly urge anyone who doesn't understand them to get involved. It is easy to misunderstand how they work and it is easy to fall prey to "grapevine" politics. I have always learned it is best to go to the source. Cut out all of the speculation.

[renielarson]

FYI..I read the links provided by TOTV and furthermore I was also involved in local and state politics for many years so am knowledgeable.

As I said earlier, I am happy in The Villages.

Continue to debate if you want, but I know what I know.

[Russ_Boston]

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1224_researching_smiley_finding_an_answer_in_a_boo k.gif (http://www.clipartof.com)

Confused me am.

[ConeyIsBabe]

I'll be following this project with interest cuz this wannabee would really love to live in a 3/2 cyv within walking distance to LSL.

Timing is everything ;D

[villages07]

It is not a crystal clear setup....


We pay amenity fees to the Central CDD for rec centers, pools, exec golf courses --- the fee is to payoff the initial purchase of the facility and provide for its ongoing maintenance and operation. This part is pretty clear to me.

These central CDDs are run by supervisors appointed by the Developer. Ok, again understood.

The Central CDD buys amenity facilities from the Developer as areas are built out. The really fuzzy part of this is who, at this point, owns the purchased amenities? The Central CDD is an entity, a business -- it is not us. So, we are more like club members paying a fee to use facilities rather than a condo association who actually owns the properties.

The squares are totally outside the purview of what the residents pay for. The central CDD may manage their maintenance but from funds collected from the developer and/or commercial tenants.

Forever_villager...thanks for your insights; it sounds like you have done extensive research on this topic. I'd be curious to hear your take on the process whereby the commercial CDD buys amenity facilities from the developer...how they set the value and whether the process seems fair.

I have great respect for the job done by the Developer to create the Villages. Everything runs very smoothly right now for what to me seems to be a very reasonable fee structure. My greatest hope is that it will always be a great value to live here and continue to be operated as efficiently as it is today...my biggest fear is that after buildout when the residents get more involved in government this vision may not hold forth or all of a sudden huge deferred maintenance expenses will be exposed.

[Villages Kahuna]

Think of it this way. If you were the developer and bore the costs of building all the golf courses and recreational facilities, how could you get your money back, yet still maintain control over their maintenance and the quality of the recreational programs?

Like a lot of other things in TV, I think it was a stroke of genius whereby the developer sold all the rec facilities and golf courses to the central CDD, which he controls because he owns all the commercial property in the central CDD's. (The voting rights for the CDD supervisors go to the property owner.) The central CDD's have bonding authority and issued bonds in an amount sufficient to pay off the developer. Our amenity fees are used to both provide for the rec activities as well as retire the bonds. The POA folks will differ with me because when sold, the developer clearly didn't provide enough money in a sinking fund for deferred maintenance. But even that's now corrected by the developer's agreement to settle the POA lawsuit before it went to trial.

In essence, the developer sold the golf courses and rec centers to himself, with the residents of TV providing the money with our amenities fees. If you think about it, if the family really "wanted out" of TV as we're now within 7-8 years of build-out, why wouldn't they have simply sold all those facilities and property to a new owner? The cash flows from those facilities are pretty significant and selling them would present no problem whatsoever. There would be all kinds of commercial real estate companies, pension funds, hedge funds, etc. who would have lined up to present a bid. That would really have been a risk to our lifestyle.

So to a degree, we have to have some confidence in the developer that he will do as he says he will, and not sell off all the commercial properties in the soon-to-be three central CDD's, thereby giving control of all the golf courses and rec centers to the new owner(s). He has said that TV is in the Morse family DNA and even though all the houses might be built, they'll still have a huge investment in the commercial properties in and surrounding TV and that they're not going anywhere.

Is the family legally bound by that statement? No. But until now, they have certainly conducted themselves admirably in creating a community with the lifestyle we all so enjoy. In my opinion, there's no more risk that there will be significant changes in our lifestyle or the costs of living here than there is in the communities we moved from. Frankly, there's probably less risk of something like that happening given the control of a responsible developer.