It happened again - Underage and causing a problem

[schrdr]

Just read about a 41 year old assaulting a grandfather in The Villages who was protecting is granddaughter at a pool. It happens far to often that an underage resident is the cause of trouble and criminal activity.

I hope they throw the book at this jerk. I don't want him talking to my grandkids.

[NYGUY]

Just another jerk....sadly they come in all ages!!

[2BNTV]

I hope he enjoys his time in jail!

Isn't it a felony, to assault a senior citizen?

[TheVillageChicken]

The guy has every right to live here. He even has the right to be an a55hole. He doesn't have the right to hit on nine year old girls or to punch grandpa. He just completed three years probation for assault in May of last year. Hopefully, the impotent justice system will find him a small room and a bunk this time.

[Jima64]

Sounds like he likes to get in your face type of person. Hope he didn't sucker punch the older man. We have to protect the children from this type of perv.

[Jima64]

Just read about a 41 year old assaulting a grandfather in The Villages who was protecting is granddaughter at a pool. It happens far to often that an underage resident is the cause of trouble and criminal activity.

I hope they throw the book at this jerk. I don't want him talking to my grandkids.

Hope you are referring to the 41 year old as the root of the problem.

[Chatbrat]

No he's entitled to his space in the pool & he's entitled to talk to offend anyone who is in his space--its their obligation to move-if they don't want to make his acquaintance

[JGVillages]

No he's entitled to his space in the pool & he's entitled to talk to offend anyone who is in his space--its their obligation to move-if they don't want to make his acquaintance
Young children are not mature or street smart enough to "move from his space". Guys like this try and fool the kids into a false sense of security. Possibly you never had kids or grandkids to protect, but if this happened to me it would be my "obligation" to remove this scumbag from their space. :boxing2::boxing2:

[Golden Years]

There is the problem and why we have more and more people that act like this guy. We have the right to go to the pool or wherever and feel safe. This person doesn't have the right to remove our freedom and his behavior should not be talorated. With your thinking if I want the pool to myself all I have to do is be an ass so people have to leave. If I decided to have a pool party an I invite all my ass friends. We can just run everyone off after all it is my right to do whatever I want.

[primo]

Young children are not mature or street smart enough to "move from his space". Guys like this try and fool the kids into a false sense of security. Possibly you never had kids or grandkids to protect, but if this happened to me it would be my "obligation" to remove this scumbag from their space. :boxing2::boxing2:

I could not agree more. My question is why didn't more 65+ pool people come to this gentleman's assistance? We may be 65+ but we could be formidable in numbers. Stick together in these situations. Don't ever let this happen again.

[schrdr]

This underage 41 guy may have a right to live here but he can't get a resident ID and doesn't have rights to be at the pool.

[schrdr]

Again all the troubles have been underage residents. It happens all the time.

[Jima64]

No he's entitled to his space in the pool & he's entitled to talk to offend anyone who is in his space--its their obligation to move-if they don't want to make his acquaintance

sorry but he should act in a moral and decent way around other people. He has no right to offend anyone on purpose if it is against the norm of society. Especially concerning children. I am surprised that anyone would support this man in any way concerning what he did. Lucky it wasn't my child involved.

[Average Guy]

This underage 41 guy may have a right to live here but he can't get a resident ID and doesn't have rights to be at the pool.

What the guy allegedly did is despicable, but 41 year olds can legally live in The Villages, get a resident ID and use the amenities, including the pools.

[Bogie Shooter]

This underage 41 guy may have a right to live here but he can't get a resident ID and doesn't have rights to be at the pool.

Why can't someone 41,owning a home, not be able to get an ID?

[Bogie Shooter]

Again all the troubles have been underage residents. It happens all the time.

I agree many are under 55, but many also are over.
So, it's not all!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

What Do you mean by underage?

[Sandtrap328]

No he's entitled to his space in the pool & he's entitled to talk to offend anyone who is in his space--its their obligation to move-if they don't want to make his acquaintance

How about if he is chewing a cigar? :coolsmiley:

[nhelleks]

This happened around 6 PM. I was on the golf course and heard the obscenities coming from the pool. Language that would shock a sailor and very very loud. Saw the 41-year-old scale the pool fence on his way to his golf cart. Followed by the grandfather who scaled the fence too. There was much more to this event then reported.

[Barefoot]

This underage 41 guy may have a right to live here but he can't get a resident ID and doesn't have rights to be at the pool. :confused: I'm not sure why you refer to him as underage, anyone over the age of 19 is allowed to live in The Villages.
And unfortunately, he does have the right to a resident ID and to be at the pool.

Having said that, I hope the Judge throws the book at him and he spends a long time in jail. What a scumbag. :ohdear:

[Barefoot]

No he's entitled to his space in the pool & he's entitled to talk to offend anyone who is in his space--its their obligation to move-if they don't want to make his acquaintance

sorry but he should act in a moral and decent way around other people. He has no right to offend anyone on purpose if it is against the norm of society. Especially concerning children. I am surprised that anyone would support this man in any way concerning what he did. Lucky it wasn't my child involved.

Chatbrat isn't serious defending this guy. He is just harking back to a previous thread where he was upset about a cigar chewing bar mate.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

This underage 41 guy may have a right to live here but he can't get a resident ID and doesn't have rights to be at the pool.

Why not?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I agree many are under 55, but many also are over.
So, it's not all!

I agree. There have been plenty of example of bad behavior by people over the age of 55. This is not about age. It's about personality and behavior.

Do you think this guy is going to be any different in 14 years?

[Bay Kid]

If it had been my granddaughter the whatever age pervert would be seeing my equalizer.

[outlaw]

I could not agree more. My question is why didn't more 65+ pool people come to this gentleman's assistance? We may be 65+ but we could be formidable in numbers. Stick together in these situations. Don't ever let this happen again.

Because this is what our society has become; people who will look the other way rather than risk conflict or injury.

[vette]

"No he's entitled to his space in the pool & he's entitled to talk to offend anyone who is in his space--its their obligation to move-if they don't want to make his acquaintance"

IMHO - this is a very stupid comment! Free speech does not give anyone the right to "OFFEND" someone, let alone someone who is 41 dealing with a 9 yr old. And weather I'm in your space or not does not give anyone the right to strike someone. Which is why we have both Harassment and Assault laws. Because I wasn't there I cannot comment on who may have been more at fault. However I fail to see why a healthy 41 yr old male should need to resort to violence and perhaps offensive language to defuse a problem with a grandfather and his grandchild.

"My question is why didn't more 65+ pool people come to this gentleman's assistance? We may be 65+ but we could be formidable in numbers. Stick together in these situations. Don't ever let this happen again."

NOW THIS IS A COMMENT I TOTALLY AGREE WITH !! We all have cell phones; so get visible taking photo's, video's if u know how, call for help or just tell everyone to calm down. Even the simple act of standing behind the party you support can thwart a violent person from being more aggressive.

[outlaw]

I'm impressed that the grandfather chased after the fleeing 41 year old. More impressed if he also scaled the pool wall.

[Villager Joyce]

No he's entitled to his space in the pool & he's entitled to talk to offend anyone who is in his space--its their obligation to move-if they don't want to make his acquaintance

You defend a person speaking to a young girl, but the person who chews a cigar should be removed from any establishment you frequent. Huh?

[outlaw]

You defend a person speaking to a young girl, but the person who chews a cigar should be removed from any establishment you frequent. Huh?

Uh, it's called sarcasm?

[Taltarzac725]

I agree. There have been plenty of example of bad behavior by people over the age of 55. This is not about age. It's about personality and behavior.

Do you think this guy is going to be any different in 14 years?

I do not think people chance much either. Looks like he committed battery on someone in Reno, Nevada in 2004.

[Sandtrap328]

I actually missed reading the news article about exactly what happened in the pool.

What did the man say to the 9 year old? Did he touch her in any way? How did it evolve into a fistfight? Any chance of it being a mistake by the perception of the grandfather before the confrontation?

[Villager Joyce]

Uh, it's called sarcasm?

I appreciate you standing up for him, but I would like chatbrat to say that. He has said some pretty outlandish things in the past. This is not the appropriate topic for sarcasm. I think If it was his grandchild or child, he (and maybe you) would agree.

[Duckfinger2]

WOW ..... I can not beleve the number of people who are not focused on the real issue !
Hitting on a 9 year old girl !
At that point does it matter if the man was 19 or 41 really !

Hitting on a 9 year old girl is just flat out wrong !

I believe the grand father was right to defend his grand daughter, personally if I was there at the time I would help the grand father !

[Taltarzac725]

WOW ..... I can not beleve the number of people who are not focused on the real issue !
Hitting on a 9 year old girl !
At that point does it matter if the man was 19 or 41 really !

Hitting on a 9 year old girl is just flat out wrong !

I believe the grand father was right to defend his grand daughter, personally if I was there at the time I would help the grand father !

It is not clear he was hitting on the girl. From the news report it looks like he was insisting that he had a right to talk to the kids and the grandfather took issue with this. I certainly would be very protective of a niece or nephew in this situation. But, it is not reported what this 41 year old was talking with the kids about. It sounded like he was talking to a group of kids?

allegedly approached the girl and her two 10-year-old friends. Gagnon allegedly told the girls he is “someone who liked talking to young girls,” according to the arrest report.

The grandfather told his granddaughter to get out of the swimming pool and asked Gagnon why he had been talking to his granddaughter..

This is from the other Villages news online source.

[Justus]

WOW ..... I can not beleve the number of people who are not focused on the real issue !
Hitting on a 9 year old girl !
At that point does it matter if the man was 19 or 41 really !

Hitting on a 9 year old girl is just flat out wrong !

I believe the grand father was right to defend his grand daughter, personally if I was there at the time I would help the grand father !

:ho:Amen!!!

[Chatbrat]

Guess no-one got my sarcasm, a slob is entitled to his space, but a person talking to a child isn't

[Taltarzac725]

Guess no-one got my sarcasm, a slob is entitled to his space, but a person talking to a child isn't

True. Even if he was asking if they liked the temperature of the pool or some other innocent question?

The news report I saw does not really give enough facts to justify the statement that the 41 year old was hitting on the three girls.

Sorry my legal training comes in as I was trained to think like a defense lawyer among other things like judge and prosecutor.

They should have him on hitting the grandfather and taking off with cell phone though.

He probably had sleazy intentions towards the kids, but....

[Jima64]

True. Even if he was asking if they liked the temperature of the pool or some other innocent question?

The news report I saw does not really give enough facts to justify the statement that the 41 year old was hitting on the three girls.

Sorry my legal training comes in as I was trained to think like a defense lawyer among other things like judge and prosecutor.

They should have him on hitting the grandfather and taking off with cell phone though.

He probably had sleazy intentions towards the kids, but....

I wonder how often he approaches young girls that are sitting with adults and has a fun conversation with the young girls. Sorry but this guy is just creepy.

[CWGUY]

True. Even if he was asking if they liked the temperature of the pool or some other innocent question?

The news report I saw does not really give enough facts to justify the statement that the 41 year old was hitting on the three girls.

Sorry my legal training comes in as I was trained to think like a defense lawyer among other things like judge and prosecutor.

They should have him on hitting the grandfather and taking off with cell phone though.

He probably had sleazy intentions towards the kids, but....

:mademyday: "Lawyer and Sleazy in the same post. :1rotfl:

[Taltarzac725]

I wonder how often he approaches young girls that are sitting with adults and has a fun conversation with the young girls. Sorry but this guy is just creepy.

I doubt if he ever does this. It sounds like the girls were off at a separate portion of the pool away from the adults as there is no clear statement of what the actual conversation between the man and kids was.

All I am saying is that there is no evidence that he was hitting on these three girls from the available news reports.

And there are some rather nice retired lawyers here on TOTV. I know a few of them personally. I hope they will chime into this discussion.

I do think that the Florida and US Constitutions are still very important even in a situation like this. The man does sound creepy but "innocent before proven guilty" is still very important. Again, there is not clear evidence that he was "hitting on the girls". He did hit the grandfather and run off with the grandfather's cell phone.

[2BNTV]

Today's DS said the 41 year old resident of Summerhill was arrested for assault on a 65 year old person.

No one has the right to put their hands on a senior citizen or anyone else, for that matter!!!

[Taltarzac725]

Today's DS said the 41 year old resident of Summerhill was arrested for assault on a 65 year old person.

No one has the right to put their hands on a senior citizen or anyone else, for that matter!!!

That's true.

[Bruiser1]

I doubt if he ever does this. It sounds like the girls were off at a separate portion of the pool away from the adults as there is no clear statement of what the actual conversation between the man and kids was.

All I am saying is that there is no evidence that he was hitting on these three girls from the available news reports.

And there are some rather nice retired lawyers here on TOTV. I know a few of them personally. I hope they will chime into this discussion.

I do think that the Florida and US Constitutions are still very important even in a situation like this. The man does sound creepy but "innocent before proven guilty" is still very important. Again, there is not clear evidence that he was "hitting on the girls".


I do not know the time of the occurance but at @ 5:30 EST there were 4 Deputy Sheriffs at the Pimlico entrance by the pool.
If this was in response to the event- I would call that prompt and effective response.

[Chi-Town]

This reminds me of the opening lyrics from Jethro Tull's tune Aqualung...

Sitting on a park bench
Eying little girls
With bad intent.
Snot running down his nose
Greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes.

I picture the sleazeball looking just like that. And I do believe there was bad intent. Real bad.

[Taltarzac725]

This reminds me of the opening lyrics from Jethro Tull's tune Aqualung...

Sitting on a park bench
Eying little girls
With bad intent.
Snot running down his nose
Greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes.

I picture the sleazeball looking just like that. And I do believe there was bad intent. Real bad.

You are probably right. But, notice that no charges have been made for thinking bad thoughts. Also, recall how badly anyone with the hint of child molestation is treated in prison and jail. This man will not have it easy once others there learn about how and why he was arrested.

[Taltarzac725]

I do not know the time of the occurance but at @ 5:30 EST there were 4 Deputy Sheriffs at the Pimlico entrance by the pool.
If this was in response to the event- I would call that prompt and effective response.

I have found the Sumter County Sheriff's Department officers usually have a prompt and effective response. Hats off to these men and women.

[Barefoot]

Chatbrat isn't serious defending this guy. He is just harking back to a previous thread where he was upset about a cigar chewing bar mate.

Guess no-one got my sarcasm, a slob is entitled to his space, but a person talking to a child isn't

You need to use some icons if you're going to be sarcastic ... :1rotfl: :yuck: :shocked: :boxing2: chilout:Screen_of_Death::rant-rave: :boom:
GREAT RESPONSE by the Sheriff's Department!

[David Moon]

The article doesn't mention that this guy fled the scene. He was going as fast as an electric cart could go, and ducked into Cherry Hill Villas, where I was walking my dog. He zipped past me, and about 8 seconds later, a county cruiser zipped by in silent pursuit. Another cruiser with its lights on blocked him in a few seconds later. I did not get too close of where they stopped him, but there was a lot of loud talking and arguing back and forth before he was arrested. A flatbed was sent to pick up the cart.

[Taltarzac725]

The article doesn't mention that this guy fled the scene. He was going as fast as an electric cart could go, and ducked into Cherry Hill Villas, where I was walking my dog. He zipped past me, and about 8 seconds later, a county cruiser zipped by in silent pursuit. Another cruiser with its lights on blocked him in a few seconds later. I did not get too close of where they stopped him, but there was a lot of loud talking and arguing back and forth before he was arrested. A flatbed was sent to pick up the cart.

Thanks for adding that. I wonder if they will go for that additional charge? I suppose Florida has something under "evading arrest". Resisting Officer Without Violence- Florida | Resisting Arrest (http://www.husseinandwebber.com/crimes/public-order-obstruction/resisting-officer-without-violence/)

The guy probably knew he was heading for a world of hurt because of his actions at the pool.

[David Moon]

Thanks for adding that. I wonder if they will go for that additional charge? I suppose Florida has something under "evading arrest".

It's unclear (or was to me) that he knew he was being followed. He seemed to have stopped on his own accord, either because he saw the cop on Kenmore, or realized that he had limited choices of where to go.

[Taltarzac725]

It's unclear (or was to me) that he knew he was being followed. He seemed to have stopped on his own accord, either because he saw the cop on Kenmore, or realized that he had limited choices of where to go.

Thanks. Did you give the police your input? Just wondering.

[David Moon]

Thanks. Did you give the police your input? Just wondering.

No. I'd assumed that the police knew if this guy saw him or not, and I didn't see the actual stop. He stopped on the east side of the circle on Calhoun. Just because of the timing, I assumed he pulled over on his own accord once he saw the cop behind him. Even with the other cruiser coming the other way on Green Hill, he would have been a long ways down Green Hill if he didn't stop at that rate of speed. I paused in the middle of Calvert and expected him to come up Green Hill, the another cruiser came the opposite way instead, at about the time he should have been exiting.

[outlaw]

Guess no-one got my sarcasm, a slob is entitled to his space, but a person talking to a child isn't

I and one or two others did.

[David Moon]

I'm 44, and I'm just happy to be considered "underaged." :a040:

[kcrazorbackfan]

Because this is what our society has become; people who will look the other way rather than risk conflict or injury.

So true; no one wants to get involved; it's the mentality of "let someone else take care of it". I was chided by 2 people (I won't name their names) on the cigar issue post about trouble following me around. It may, but I DO NOT look for trouble and I refuse to be a pansy and cower down to bully's, thug's or trash.

[outlaw]

I appreciate you standing up for him, but I would like chatbrat to say that. He has said some pretty outlandish things in the past. This is not the appropriate topic for sarcasm. I think If it was his grandchild or child, he (and maybe you) would agree.

I wasn't standing up for him. I was explaining his comment to someone who obviously didn't get it. To avoid future embarrassment, please list those topics for which you feel sarcasm or humor is inappropriate. Thank you.

[outlaw]

I'm 44, and I'm just happy to be considered "underaged." :a040:

I'm thrilled that I'm almost in a protected class!

[outlaw]

How about if he is chewing a cigar? :coolsmiley:

Now THAT'S crossing the line. Bring in the SWAT.

[outlaw]

So true; no one wants to get involved; it's the mentality of "let someone else take care of it". I was chided by 2 people (I won't name their names) on the cigar issue post about trouble following me around. It may, but I DO NOT look for trouble and I refuse to be a pansy and cower down to bully's, thug's or trash.

I read those "thoughtful" comments. I suspect there was a time when they would have done what you did, but now they are more "safety" conscious. I must admit, though, that I hesitate to get involved in an altercation, mainly because of the concern of being charged with assault and sued. I remember growing up, if you got in a fight with your neighbor, you both ended up with bloody noses and that was it. Even if the police showed up, they would have you shake hands and promise not to fight again. Now, if you're arguing with someone and a drop of your sweat lands on their arm, you're arrested for aggravated assault.

[Justus]

No he's entitled to his space in the pool & he's entitled to talk to offend anyone who is in his space--its their obligation to move-if they don't want to make his acquaintance

I just got it!!! :coolsmiley:

[graciegirl]

I'm 44, and I'm just happy to be considered "underaged." :a040:


Do you live here?

[David Moon]

Do you live here?

I do.

[Villager Joyce]

I wasn't standing up for him. I was explaining his comment to someone who obviously didn't get it. To avoid future embarrassment, please list those topics for which you feel sarcasm or humor is inappropriate. Thank you.

I stand by my comment -- some topics are off limits for sarcasm.

[Topspinmo]

Read this in the paper also. My first thought was why was he at the family pool alone? Even though I can to go to the family pools I don't unless I have family member visiting. IMO the adult and sports pools more appropriate for me. It would be uncomfortable for me to be there alone and I'm sure for some family members with kids visiting seeing some old fart non family at the pool??:icon_wink: uncomfortable also?

[redwitch]

Read this in the paper also. My first thought was why was he at the family pool alone? Even though I can to go to the family pools I don't unless I have family member visiting. IMO the adult and sports pools more appropriate for me. It would be uncomfortable for me to be there alone and I'm sure for some family members with kids visiting seeing some old fart non family at the pool??:icon_wink: uncomfortable also?

Closest pool to his house.

I think most oldsters wouldn't want to go to a family with a lot of kids because of the noise factor. If just one or two kids, why not?

I don't know what the whole story is here. The young guy may have been totally innocent in his conversation with the girls but the grandfather wasn't sure and started yelling at the guy. It sounds like the guy has some anger management issues given past history and being yelled at set him off. Regardless, odds are the guy will be doing some jail time given the charges and prior history. Wish I could say I felt for this guy but I really don't. Even if totally innocent with the girls, striking another, especially someone twenty years his senior, is not acceptable.

[Justus]

This guy's probably done this before. Otherwise, why would he have known to abscond with Grandpa's cellphone so that the police couldn't be summoned. That's something an experienced criminal would instinctively do to enable his escape.

[David Moon]

When I saw him, he seemed very focused and was definitely trying to evade or lay low. Thin guy, no shirt... He wasn't driving erratically, but was moving as fast as the golf cart would go without losing control. I could not hear much of what was being discussed with the police, but his voice was elevated.

[Topspinmo]

Closest pool to his house.

I think most oldsters wouldn't want to go to a family with a lot of kids because of the noise factor. If just one or two kids, why not?

I don't know what the whole story is here. The young guy may have been totally innocent in his conversation with the girls but the grandfather wasn't sure and started yelling at the guy. It sounds like the guy has some anger management issues given past history and being yelled at set him off. Regardless, odds are the guy will be doing some jail time given the charges and prior history. Wish I could say I felt for this guy but I really don't. Even if totally innocent with the girls, striking another, especially someone twenty years his senior, is not acceptable.

I agree I don't know either. The girls May have approached him? I doubt it, but could happen I guess? I don't know? IMO it would be inappropriate for stranger to walk up and talk to children separate from family. Especially males, even it it was innocent conversation which from distance could be misinterpreted. Why put your self in that situation?

[Barefoot]

Read this in the paper also. My first thought was why was he at the family pool alone? Even though I can to go to the family pools I don't unless I have family member visiting. IMO the adult and sports pools more appropriate for me. It would be uncomfortable for me to be there alone and I'm sure for some family members with kids visiting seeing some old fart non family at the pool??:icon_wink: uncomfortable also?
I occasionally go to a Family Pool by myself, just for a change of pace, and to watch the happy kids. No nefarious business planned. Perhaps your comments apply only to old male farts and not to females. :D

[Barefoot]

Closest pool to his house.

If he lived north of CR 466 as was reported in the online newspaper, Pimlico wouldn't be the closest pool.
But perhaps he was visiting someone in the area, who knows.

[Taltarzac725]

I occasionally go to a Family Pool by myself, just for a change of pace, and to watch the happy kids. No nefarious business planned. Perhaps your comments apply only to old male farts and not to females. :D

All male farts though would be my guess. Not women so much even though they could be a problem too if working with a team for abductions for the sex trade. I do think that no matter where you are-- even the Villages-- you should keep a good watch on nieces, nephews, granddaughters, grandsons, and other loved ones.

It will be interesting to see if anything develops out of this. The police probably would have charged this man if he was truly trying to pick up some nine and ten year olds at the pool.

I did represent some sex offenders while at Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners (LAMP) at the University of Minnesota Law School back in 1987-1989. I looked at their files carefully from a victims/survivors point of view though as well as from the view of a student lawyer. They do use various tricks. I visited these inmates at Minnesota Correctional Facility-- Stillwater or mailed them letters. This was always under the supervision of practicing attorneys attached to LAMP. You cannot pick and choose your clients in these law school clinic situations. You take whoever the supervising practicing attorney gives you. Stillwater is probably still the largest prison in Minnesota so I saw a lot of files during those 21 months or so. It was also a paid position for one summer which helped pay for some of the law school tuition or other stuff.

Please recall that I was investigating the holdings in the University of Minnesota Law Library for survivors/victims of crimes during all the time I was using or working at that extremely large law library. This was from August 1986 through roughly August 1991 until I started that August of 1991 writing all the US Senators, half the US Representatives, all the US Governors, some of the Law School Deans of the most prestigious law schools, etc. when I had my mental health first subtly and then not so subtly attacked when I wanted to be honest with potential employers about the problems I had finding useful information for survivors/victims of crimes as well as about the culture in the law school which often seemed to make fun of the victims' rights movement. Case in point-- the practicing attorneys handed me a case of two boys who burned down a school library in upstate Minnesota. They knew I had a MA in Librarianship and Information Management from the University of Denver Graduate School of Librarianship and Information Management. (Class of 1984) I guess they saw it as kind of a test. I saw it as people who think that practicing law is some kind of game.

Back to this man at the pool, I do think that the police would have charged him if there was any evidence that he was approaching these girls with lascivious intent. https://www.richardhornsby.com/crimes/sex/lewd-or-lascivious-molestation.html

[outlaw]

I actually missed reading the news article about exactly what happened in the pool.

What did the man say to the 9 year old? Did he touch her in any way? How did it evolve into a fistfight? Any chance of it being a mistake by the perception of the grandfather before the confrontation?


Yes. But don't let that get in the way of a good hanging.

[outlaw]

Do you live here?

That seems inappropriate considering your age differences....

[Sandtrap328]

What did the man say to the 9 year old? Did he touch her in any way? How did it evolve into a fistfight? Any chance of it being a mistake by the perception of the grandfather before the confrontation?
___________________________________
Yes. But don't let that get in the way of a good hanging.

___________________________

Which one is documented as to taking the first swing? There must have been a lot of witnesses to the fight.

[outlaw]

What did the man say to the 9 year old? Did he touch her in any way? How did it evolve into a fistfight? Any chance of it being a mistake by the perception of the grandfather before the confrontation?
___________________________________
Yes. But don't let that get in the way of a good hanging.

___________________________

Which one is documented as to taking the first swing? There must have been a lot of witnesses to the fight.

I don't know. But if the grandfather overreacted by calling the other guy a pedophile or child molester, I could understand the younger guy losing it and punching him in the nose. I'm not condoning his action....but I understand why he could have hit him, if falsely accused.

[Taltarzac725]

I don't know. But if the grandfather overreacted by calling the other guy a pedophile or child molester, I could understand the younger guy losing it and punching him in the nose. I'm not condoning his action....but I understand why he could have hit him, if falsely accused.

That was why I jumped into this in case the accused did nothing more serious than perhaps asking some kids where they were from. A stupid idea yes but not something that should have erupted into an altercation.

[gerryann]

That was why I jumped into this in case the accused did nothing more serious than perhaps asking some kids where they were from. A stupid idea yes but not something that should have erupted into an altercation.

That's true. But, as adults, it doesn't ok hitting gramps. If gramps came upon a completely innocent conversation and told the guy to NOT talk to the girls......the younger guy should have just walked away. No need to punch gramps.

[red tail]

I don't know. But if the grandfather overreacted by calling the other guy a pedophile or child molester, I could understand the younger guy losing it and punching him in the nose. I'm not condoning his action....but I understand why he could have hit him, if falsely accused.

its a felony for a 41 year old to hit a person over 65

[graciegirl]

I don't know. But if the grandfather overreacted by calling the other guy a pedophile or child molester, I could understand the younger guy losing it and punching him in the nose. I'm not condoning his action....but I understand why he could have hit him, if falsely accused.



I heard from an unnamed source that the gentlemen in question had been behind bars before............ Don't ask.

[tomwed]

I believe that is mentioned on The-Site-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.

[Barefoot]

But if the grandfather overreacted by calling the other guy a pedophile or child molester, I could understand the younger guy losing it and punching him in the nose.

I heard from an unnamed source that the gentlemen in question had been behind bars before...
I think the online newspaper mentioned the younger guy has a record ... is that who you mean? :confused:

[BS Beef]

Does anyone know where there's a link or post on the news article about this? This whole thing stinks to high heaven. I understand the innocent before proven guilty but given his past I don't see the excuses put forth here having much merit. And I'm not aware of any reason it would be OK to take someone's cell phone.

The funniest thing I've seen in a long time was in here. Someone used "Lawyers" and "good people" in the same sentence. Now that's rich :clap2:

[graciegirl]

I think the online newspaper mentioned the younger guy has a record ... is that who you mean? :confused:



Yes. I think if that guy was chatting up three ten year olds connected to me and said anything much to them, I would be very quick to get them out of the pool. He wasn't there with his family and it would strike me as odd. It said on the online news that he told them he liked "younger girls", didn't it say that Bare?

[TheVillageChicken]

Does anyone know where there's a link or post on the news article about this? This whole thing stinks to high heaven. I understand the innocent before proven guilty but given his past I don't see the excuses put forth here having much merit. And I'm not aware of any reason it would be OK to take someone's cell phone.

The funniest thing I've seen in a long time was in here. Someone used "Lawyers" and "good people" in the same sentence. Now that's rich :clap2:

Here you go. (http://alturl.com/9v8ij)

[Taltarzac725]

Does anyone know where there's a link or post on the news article about this? This whole thing stinks to high heaven. I understand the innocent before proven guilty but given his past I don't see the excuses put forth here having much merit. And I'm not aware of any reason it would be OK to take someone's cell phone.

The funniest thing I've seen in a long time was in here. Someone used "Lawyers" and "good people" in the same sentence. Now that's rich :clap2:

You must know some lawyers who are not merely interested in money or some other kind of self-interest? I probably know 300 lawyers fairly well and some are bad, some good, and some are something else. I have a JD and most who know me would consider me very ethical, compassionate and nice person. I have met a lot of non-lawyers who are far less ethical, compassionate and some are just plain mean-spirited, nasty, and short-tempered.

Some of us seem to be saying that there is no evidence that this man was trying to pick up these young girls. If there were, then the police would have charged him in that manner. He does look like someone with some very serious anger management issues and who made a stupid decision to talk to some minors.

And, whom did he tell that he liked to talk to young girls? The other source says that he allegedly told that to the young girls. Maybe people should watch or read The Ox-Bow Incident about pillorying people before you get all the facts. Police reports and news reports do use "allegedly" for a good reason.

[Barefoot]

Yes. I think if that guy was chatting up three ten year olds connected to me and said anything much to them, I would be very quick to get them out of the pool. He wasn't there with his family and it would strike me as odd. It said on the online news that he told them he liked "younger girls", didn't it say that Bare?

I think that he allegedly told the girls that he liked to talk to young girls.
His arrest is for assaulting a man over 65, and for stealing his phone.
The last time he was arrested for battery, he got off with probation.
Hopefully, if he is convicted this time, he will go away for battery over age 65.

[David Moon]

He also fled the scene, but seemed to have gone fairly quietly. He certainly had the opportunity to ditch the cart and jump the fence into another neighborhood.

[Taltarzac725]

I think that he allegedly told the girls that he liked to talk to young girls.
His arrest is for assaulting a man over 65, and for stealing his phone.
The last time he was arrested for battery, he got off with probation.
Hopefully, if he is convicted this time, he will go away for battery over age 65.

I would hope that someone very adept at questioning kids is looking into this. Or, maybe they will just let it go and proceed with the charges as is. Kids can be manipulated by adults to say things that support one side or another. That just sounds like something incredibly stupid to say to some children in bathing suits of the opposite sex. Maybe he did say that, maybe he did not. I just wish people would look more critically about police and newspaper/TV accounts like this rather than just taking them at face value. It would lead to better results in the courts IMHO.

I wish that they taught Socratic thinking in more places than just Philosophy classes, Law School, some MBA schools, and some other places. 6 types of Socratic Questions (http://www.umich.edu/~elements/5e/probsolv/strategy/cthinking.htm)

[MDLNB]

Regardless of his age (meaning under 65) and whether or not it was a misunderstanding, if the guy took the first punch, he was wrong and should be charged (he was). Regardless of whether or not he instigated the altercations, he stole the senior's cell phone. That's larceny/theft. He should be charged. Regardless of whether there are extenuating circumstances related to the whole affair, that is for the court to decide, not Monday (today is Monday) morning quarterbacking. Talking to children is not a crime, as far as I can discern. However, any adult can and should be concerned about protecting children. I do not know if there were any other witnesses, but I do know that if I had been present, I would have become involved. I am sure that most of our seniors would have. I can only assume that there was not that many folks in attendance at the time. But, I have not read the article and thus do not have all the facts. If this person has been arrested for assault in the past, I would tend to side with the senior, rather than looking for ways to justify the child whisperer. Just my opinion, being a grandfather and great-grandfather.
There are several factors that are at issue here:
Protecting our children from perverts-scare.
The assault and battery
The theft of the cell phone
The fleeing the scene

Talking to the children is not an actual crime. Thank goodness the grandfather was there to prevent a possible crime on the children from happening. Sometimes waiting for a crime to occur before taking action toward prevention, causes unending regrets later. The grandfather (depending on facts) is a hero in my book. I find it hard to come up with circumstances that warrants the 41 yr. old striking the senior, stealing his cell phone and fleeing the scene. Of course, I was not there and do not know all the facts. However, with what we do know, I refuse to defend his actions. If it turns out that the grandfather's actions were warranted, I would like to shake his hand. If my granddaughter was in that pool and someone defended or attempted to protect them, I would be forever in their debt. I am not a lawyer or psychiatrist, so I will not attempt to analyze the perpetrator's motivation for attempting to engage minors in conversation. In my opinion, any adult with common sense and/or stable mind would know better. When accosted by the grandfather, he would have been well advised to retreat, rather than allow his anger to cause him to violate the law. Hardly the action of the innocent.

[Taltarzac725]

Regardless of his age (meaning under 65) and whether or not it was a misunderstanding, if the guy took the first punch, he was wrong and should be charged (he was). Regardless of whether or not he instigated the altercations, he stole the senior's cell phone. That's larceny/theft. He should be charged. Regardless of whether there are extenuating circumstances related to the whole affair, that is for the court to decide, not Monday (today is Monday) morning quarterbacking. Talking to children is not a crime, as far as I can discern. However, any adult can and should be concerned about protecting children. I do not know if there were any other witnesses, but I do know that if I had been present, I would have become involved. I am sure that most of our seniors would have. I can only assume that there was not that many folks in attendance at the time. But, I have not read the article and thus do not have all the facts. If this person has been arrested for assault in the past, I would tend to side with the senior, rather than looking for ways to justify the child whisperer. Just my opinion, being a grandfather and great-grandfather.
There are several factors that are at issue here:
Protecting our children from perverts-scare.
The assault and battery
The theft of the cell phone
The fleeing the scene

Talking to the children is not an actual crime. Thank goodness the grandfather was there to prevent a possible crime on the children from happening. Sometimes waiting for a crime to occur before taking action toward prevention, causes unending regrets later. The grandfather (depending on facts) is a hero in my book. I find it hard to come up with circumstances that warrants the 41 yr. old striking the senior, stealing his cell phone and fleeing the scene. Of course, I was not there and do not know all the facts. However, with what we do know, I refuse to defend his actions. If it turns out that the grandfather's actions were warranted, I would like to shake his hand. If my granddaughter was in that pool and someone defended or attempted to protect them, I would be forever in their debt. I am not a lawyer or psychiatrist, so I will not attempt to analyze the perpetrator's motivation for attempting to engage minors in conversation. In my opinion, any adult with common sense and/or stable mind would know better. When accosted by the grandfather, he would have been well advised to retreat, rather than allow his anger to cause him to violate the law. Hardly the action of the innocent.

You should read the article. IMHO it is not well written and puts in various assumptions for dramatic effect. Mainly the statement about the "child whisperer" as you put it saying he allegedly talked to young girls. That puts a sex offender twist on it from the start but the cops never charged him for coming onto the kids. It is a crime to talk to young girls if you are trying to set up a date or the like. That's what the reporter made it kind of sound like in the article-- that this man was interested in these three girls sexually. The fight might have been about the grandfather misconstruing the intentions of this man who MAY have said something completely innocent to the girls. The facts are not in the article. In this day and time which such fears for young kids it seems to be irresponsible journalism to not get more into the facts.

I have been fighting at great personal and professional cost to get more practical information for survivors/victims of crimes accessible through or in libraries of all kinds in my 224 613 Project since January 1991. You do have to though think about the defenses to crimes also and it sound to me with my JD from the University of Minnesota Law School that a defense lawyer would have a field day with at least the prejudice put out by the local media against this innocent until proven guilty person. The man may have felt he had to flee because of the situation at the pool which was the portrayal of him as a potential sex offender.

The cops from what I have read handled this matter extremely well and made the charges based on their investigation and the law as welll as taking into account what a defense lawyer could tear down.

[MDLNB]

You should read the article. IMHO it is not well written and puts in various assumptions for dramatic effect. Mainly the statement about the "child whisperer" as you put it saying he allegedly talked to young girls. That puts a sex offender twist on it from the start but the cops never charged him for coming onto the kids. It is a crime to talk to young girls if you are trying to set up a date or the like. That's what the reporter made it kind of sound like in the article-- that this man was interested in these three girls sexually. The fight might have been about the grandfather misconstruing the intentions of this man who MAY have said something completely innocent to the girls. The facts are not in the article. In this day and time which such fears for young kids it seems to be irresponsible journalism to not get more into the facts.

I have been fighting at great personal and professional cost to get more practical information for survivors/victims of crimes accessible through or in libraries of all kinds in my 224 613 Project since January 1991. You do have to though think about the defenses to crimes also and it sound to me with my JD from the University of Minnesota Law School that a defense lawyer would have a field day with at least the prejudice put out by the local media against this innocent until proven guilty person. The man may have felt he had to flee because of the situation at the pool which was the portrayal of him as a potential sex offender.

The cops from what I have read handled this matter extremely well and made the charges based on their investigation and the law as welll as taking into account what a defense lawyer could tear down.

I understand your need to defend him. It's in the nature of a good lawyer. However, regardless of circumstances resulting in the assault and the theft, I doubt that either one is justifiable. Put aside the incident with the children, the facts seem to indicate that there was an assault and theft. Even if the assault was due to self defense, how does he justify the theft? It appears that even a good lawyer is going to have a hard time with this one, partnered with the history of the suspect being introduced into the equation. And the prosecutor will use that as evidence of a trend in the suspects behavior. Like I said, I have yet to read the article. But, like you said, the media does have a tendency to taint the issue. If the police arrested the suspect, then they had to have probable cause. I am basing my opinion on the information provide on this thread. I am not the judge or the jury and have not convicted him. It is only an unqualified opinion based on conversation. I find it hard to defend the suspect based on information provided. Am I wrong?

[MDLNB]

Yes. I think if that guy was chatting up three ten year olds connected to me and said anything much to them, I would be very quick to get them out of the pool. He wasn't there with his family and it would strike me as odd. It said on the online news that he told them he liked "younger girls", didn't it say that Bare?

:agree: As they say "an once of prevention..." Police are reactionary by necessity, whereas we can be proactive and preemptive.

[Taltarzac725]

I understand your need to defend him. It's in the nature of a good lawyer. However, regardless of circumstances resulting in the assault and the theft, I doubt that either one is justifiable. Put aside the incident with the children, the facts seem to indicate that there was an assault and theft. Even if the assault was due to self defense, how does he justify the theft? It appears that even a good lawyer is going to have a hard time with this one, partnered with the history of the suspect being introduced into the equation. And the prosecutor will use that as evidence of a trend in the suspects behavior. Like I said, I have yet to read the article. But, like you said, the media does have a tendency to taint the issue. If the police arrested the suspect, then they had to have probable cause. I am basing my opinion on the information provide on this thread. I am not the judge or the jury and have not convicted him. It is only an unqualified opinion based on conversation. I find it hard to defend the suspect based on information provided. Am I wrong?

The police do have those charges on him and they will probably stick IMHO. We do not have enough facts though for the mitigating circumstances though. It would seem to depend on why they got in a fist fight and why the man felt he had to run for it. If he thought he was unjustly going to be tarnished with the label of sexual pervert he might have just lost it. I do think that if there were any evidence that this man was making sexual advances on some kids in bathing suits in a pool, that the cops would have charged him. I assume that they did talk to kids in question at some time. There are hotheaded protectors of kids who just get angry about something and do not bother to get the facts from the kids. And kids may lie for some reason or another especially like defending a loved one if he made a seeing red mistake.

I would be seeing red if someone started talking to my 13 year old niece and they were much older and of the opposite sex. Especially if this were in a swimming pool. I would hope though that I could contain my anger.

[MDLNB]

The police do have those charges on him and they will probably stick IMHO. We do not have enough facts though for the mitigating circumstances though. It would seem to depend on why they got in a fist fight and why the man felt he had to run for it. If he thought he was unjustly going to be tarnished with the label of sexual pervert he might have just lost it. I do think that if there were any evidence that this man was making sexual advances on some kids in bathing suits in a pool, that the cops would have charged him. I assume that they did talk to kids in question at some time. There are hotheaded protectors of kids who just get angry about something and do not bother to get the facts from the kids. And kids may lie for some reason or another especially like defending a loved one if he made a seeing red mistake.

I would be seeing red if someone started talking to my 13 year old niece and they were much older and of the opposite sex. Especially if this were in a swimming pool. I would hope though that I could contain my anger.

I'm sorry if I misinterpret your response, but I get the idea that you feel that the suspect is misunderstood and that the grandfather should have held his temper, that resulted in the altercation. I get that implication by your statement that you would hope that you could contain your anger if someone older started talking to your teenage niece. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but are you indicating that we shouldn't be concerned with protecting children, and you believe that if the grandfather would have resisted confronting the :censored: everything would have been OK? Because, I see this type of thinking to be problematic and accessory to this kind of behavior. Correct me if I am wrong in my assumption.

[Taltarzac725]

I'm sorry if I misinterpret your response, but I get the idea that you feel that the suspect is misunderstood and that the grandfather should have held his temper, that resulted in the altercation. I get that implication by your statement that you would hope that you could contain your anger if someone older started talking to your teenage niece. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but are you indicating that we shouldn't be concerned with protecting children, and you believe that if the grandfather would have resisted confronting the :censored: everything would have been OK? Because, I see this type of thinking to be problematic and accessory to this kind of behavior. Correct me if I am wrong in my assumption.

We should be very aware of threats to kids especially of older men or women interacting with them. IMHO the grandfather should have approached the man talking to his grandchild as soon as possible and found out what they were actually talking about. From the article it sounds like the grandfather did not do that but accused the man of being a sexual pervert after the conversation with the kids was over and then the kids probably defended the grandfather of one of the kids by saying that the man told them that he "liked to talk to young girls". Who in his right mind says that to some young girls in bathing suits off to themselves?

The article is poorly written and does not really go into the details of who said what and when. I do think the police flushed this out and found out that this man was not trying to pick up the young girls.

If I saw a man trying to pick up a minor in some public place in the Villages I hope that I would call 9/11 immediately. I would though make sure that I was not misunderstanding the situation. It is a crime to vocalize a sexual intent towards a minor. Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0800/Sections/0800.04.html)

[Bonny]

This thread has made me really think. We were on vacation and I was in the ocean. There were a couple of brothers 9 & 11. They were swimming by me having fun. I said looks like you boys are having a good time. They started showing me how long they could stay under water. We started talking about where they lived & went to school. We were laughing while they were telling me all about their vacation. Their family was in the water, but a little ways from us.
After reading all of these posts here, what a shame that so many people would assume I'm hitting on little boys because I was talking with them.

[bomanm]

This whole article started off about under age residents being the cause of trouble in the village because this 41 year old spoke to some young girl and her friends. It caused an up roar. Granted he should of been minding his on business & not approached the girls. If he was 62, it would be a dirty old man. The crime I see committed around here is from the local community. I do see petty stuff from the Villagers and they are from Senior residents. So before you start pointing fingers, get your facts right.

[REDCART]

I think that he allegedly told the girls that he liked to talk to young girls.
His arrest is for assaulting a man over 65, and for stealing his phone.
The last time he was arrested for battery, he got off with probation.
Hopefully, if he is convicted this time, he will go away for battery over age 65.

Does anyone wonder why a 41 year old male without minors with him was in a family pool to begin with, rather than a senior pool? Maybe the totality of circumstances suggests this guy is on very thin ice.

[Bonny]

Does anyone wonder why a 41 year old male without minors with him was in a family pool to begin with, rather than a senior pool? Maybe the totality of circumstances suggests this guy is on very thin ice.
Oh my goodness, I'm 63 so I shouldn't go to family pools unless I have kids ? When we lived in Santiago, we went to the pool there because it was right by our house. It was a family pool. What's a senior pool ?

[redwitch]

I'm with Tal on this one. Not enough facts to know if there were any predatory acts. The conversation could have been an innocuous question about how they liked visiting TV to something extremely lewd and obscene. We also have no idea what was said by the grandfather. He really could have come off extremely accusatory and threatening. We don't know.

What we do know is that the younger resident was charged with battery against a senior citizen and theft. According to a TOTVer who heard part of the altercation, it was very loud and obscenities were used. Maybe by the grandfather, maybe by the perpetrator, maybe by an observer, maybe by both or all? Again, we don't know.

To politely ask someone to not interact with a child is appropriate in today's world. To become immediately belligerent is not reasonable. And please remember that most sexual abuse is perpetrated by friends and family, not strangers.

In this case, I'd say that charging the perpetrator with assault, battery and theft is appropriate. How it will turn out is unknown but I wouldn't be surprised to hear self-defense being brought up and accepted. That would leave a charge of theft to be plea bargained to a misdemeanor.

[dsilverbj]

There is a simple solution which would probably require an amendment to
the by laws. Just like with the Village Charter School if you lose your job in the Villages your child can no longer attend the Charter School. The amendment should read that if you are underage in the Villages and commit a crime then you lose your right to live here whether you are living with your parents or not.

[MDLNB]

We should be very aware of threats to kids especially of older men or women interacting with them. IMHO the grandfather should have approached the man talking to his grandchild as soon as possible and found out what they were actually talking about. From the article it sounds like the grandfather did not do that but accused the man of being a sexual pervert after the conversation with the kids was over and then the kids probably defended the grandfather of one of the kids by saying that the man told them that he "liked to talk to young girls". Who in his right mind says that to some young girls in bathing suits off to themselves?

The article is poorly written and does not really go into the details of who said what and when. I do think the police flushed this out and found out that this man was not trying to pick up the young girls.

If I saw a man trying to pick up a minor in some public place in the Villages I hope that I would call 9/11 immediately. I would though make sure that I was not misunderstanding the situation. It is a crime to vocalize a sexual intent towards a minor. Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0800/Sections/0800.04.html)

I thought you were saying that we are the ones making assumptions by automatically placing guilt on the suspect. And I have read the short narrative article on the incident. As a matter of fact, I read two articles related to the incident. But, now it seems that it is you that are assuming that the fault is on the grandfather. How you could interpret the information provided by the article the way you did, is beyond me. You found some way to automatically interpret that the suspect was misunderstood by the grandfather, and didn't get a chance to defend himself. I see nothing in the article to suggest your "theory." I interpret the article as indicating that there was an assault and theft and that the suspect was arrested. The circumstances leading up to the altercation appears to be the fact that the suspect was chatting with three underage children, in a suspected inappropriate manner. I say suspected because I believe he chatted with them, but the only indication that there might/might have been inappropriate conversation is the little content we have of the quote he allegedly made. Whether he was innocent in his interaction with the children is a moot point, if he is guilty of assault and theft. Motivation for the violations means little unless it was self defense and the theft was inadvertent. A defense attorney will attempt to get him the best deal possible because he/she will be getting paid to do so, not because she believes he is innocent.
I like to think of my fellow Americans that get involved as heroes, and not try to find fault with their actions. I believe that there are way too many dirt bags that get the benefit of doubt and sympathy. Not to say that this guy is guilty, but on the other hand, I am not blaming the grandfather until evidence suggests otherwise. Too many folks want to make excuses for bad behavior. I am not criticizing your statement, rather I am just disagreeing with the liberal interpretation that you seem to put on the article.

[Bonny]

There is a simple solution which would probably require an amendment to
the by laws. Just like with the Village Charter School if you lose your job in the Villages your child can no longer attend the Charter School. The amendment should read that if you are underage in the Villages and commit a crime then you lose your right to live here whether you are living with your parents or not.
Too funny ! And what about the many seniors who live here that have committed crimes ?

[MDLNB]

There is a simple solution which would probably require an amendment to
the by laws. Just like with the Village Charter School if you lose your job in the Villages your child can no longer attend the Charter School. The amendment should read that if you are underage in the Villages and commit a crime then you lose your right to live here whether you are living with your parents or not.

Although, this seems to be a good idea in general, it couldn't be enforced, even if legal. This guy could own his house in the villages. Of course, I did not see any indication that he was living with his parents, but anyone over 19 yrs old can live in the villages with their parents, right? But, maybe he rents or owns a residence in the villages.

If you use google, you will see that there is a map with many residents in the villages that have been convicted of a sexual offense. You may have one that lives right next door and not even know it. Not that there is an overwhelming amount of these folks in the villages. Just saying. Of course, these are just the registered sexual offenders.

But, like you I get very upset when I hear of a possible case of child abuse or child molestation. But, like the lawyer said, this guy is not being charged with that type of crime.

[MDLNB]

Too funny ! And what about the many seniors who live here that have committed crimes ?

Exactly!

[REDCART]

Oh my goodness, I'm 63 so I shouldn't go to family pools unless I have kids ? When we lived in Santiago, we went to the pool there because it was right by our house. It was a family pool. What's a senior pool ?

You conveniently missed the point! "The totality" of the circumstances is the operative word. By a senior pool I was referring to an adult pool.

[MDLNB]

Oh my goodness, I'm 63 so I shouldn't go to family pools unless I have kids ? When we lived in Santiago, we went to the pool there because it was right by our house. It was a family pool. What's a senior pool ?

You are absolutely right. I think she was thinking of the resident pools? There are many seniors that enjoy being around young people and children in particular. They miss their family and grandkids and like to listen to them have fun and play. Just because one person may have evil thoughts for his/her particular reason to be there, does not make the rest of us perverts. We have nine grandchildren and three great-grandchildren and even though my wife wouldn't leave the villages, even if I was gone she still misses being around the kids. Sometimes we just want to see something different than white hair, stiff joints and lack of energy. Children have an abundance of energy and cheerfulness. It's contagious. No one should feel guilty about sharing in their company.

I do find it puzzling, base on the lack of information provided, that if this guy was innocent, then why did he not just excuse himself and leave, rather than sticking around for an altercation and then taking off with the guy's cell phone. But, I guess the court will vindicate him if he is innocent.

[tomwed]

\\\\

[MDLNB]

You conveniently missed the point! "The totality" of the circumstances is the operative word. By a senior pool I was referring to an adult pool.

Yes, there are four type of pools to my understanding.

Adult pool
Family pool
Sports pool

and country club pool.

[Bonny]

You are absolutely right. I think she was thinking of the resident pools? There are many seniors that enjoy being around young people and children in particular. They miss their family and grandkids and like to listen to them have fun and play. Just because one person may have evil thoughts for his/her particular reason to be there, does not make the rest of us perverts. We have nine grandchildren and three great-grandchildren and even though my wife wouldn't leave the villages, even if I was gone she still misses being around the kids. Sometimes we just want to see something different than white hair, stiff joints and lack of energy. Children have an abundance of energy and cheerfulness. It's contagious. No one should feel guilty about sharing in their company.

I do find it puzzling, base on the lack of information provided, that if this guy was innocent, then why did he not just excuse himself and leave, rather than sticking around for an altercation and then taking off with the guy's cell phone. But, I guess the court will vindicate him if he is innocent.
The guy probably didn't leave because he's probably a hot head, LOL :boxing2:
Yes, it is so much fun seeing kids and even their younger than us parents. I enjoy talking with them in a lively conversation. I don't go to the pools anymore because we have our own, but when we did, I always talked to the little kids.

[MDLNB]

This whole article started off about under age residents being the cause of trouble in the village because this 41 year old spoke to some young girl and her friends. It caused an up roar. Granted he should of been minding his on business & not approached the girls. If he was 62, it would be a dirty old man. The crime I see committed around here is from the local community. I do see petty stuff from the Villagers and they are from Senior residents. So before you start pointing fingers, get your facts right.

Facts ,as reported by the article?

He was arrested for assault
He was arrested for theft
He had been previously convicted of assault

By the way, aren't most residents of The Villages "senior?" Sounds to me like you are generalizing as much as the rest of us when you say you "see petty stuff from the Villagers"

He wasn't arrested for a pervert related crime. That was just the extenuating circumstances related to the incident. When reading a report, one wishes to be apprised of the possible motivation or circumstances surrounding the incident. Whether the spark that ignited the altercation was valid, implied or fabricated does not change the reporting of him being arrested.

[bomanm]

Going back to how this post started it isn't about age. It is all about the person's personality and his character. Don't try to make it about people under the age of 55. Or what age you feel is inappropriate to live here. Everyone is here for The same reason to enjoy the lifestyle.

[golfing eagles]

Well, after reading 112 posts and the article, I remain quite unclear on what happened.
IMHO, a 41 year old with resident ID has every right to be in a family pool, it may just be the closest to his home. If, as a community, we don't like the idea of a man without a child going there, then we should amend the rules to "no adult shall use a family pool unless accompanied by a minor"
We have no idea of the interaction between this man and the girls---is he friendly? Like kids? Miss his own children? or is he a perv?
Likewise, there is little info about grandpa's original interaction with this man---? aggressive, ? curious--who knows?
However, there was clearly an assault and theft. Usually, if there is an altercation involving battery, the police just arrest both parties and let the judge sort it out, so it SEEMS like most of the aggression was on the side of the 41 year old, as is clearly the theft, and possibly resisting arrest
I am concerned that there may have been multiple bystanders who did nothing. Yes, there is a slight chance of getting into legal problems if you help, but the law does allow you to help defend the victim of an assault.

[Taltarzac725]

I'm with Tal on this one. Not enough facts to know if there were any predatory acts. The conversation could have been an innocuous question about how they liked visiting TV to something extremely lewd and obscene. We also have no idea what was said by the grandfather. He really could have come off extremely accusatory and threatening. We don't know.

What we do know is that the younger resident was charged with battery against a senior citizen and theft. According to a TOTVer who heard part of the altercation, it was very loud and obscenities were used. Maybe by the grandfather, maybe by the perpetrator, maybe by an observer, maybe by both or all? Again, we don't know.

To politely ask someone to not interact with a child is appropriate in today's world. To become immediately belligerent is not reasonable. And please remember that most sexual abuse is perpetrated by friends and family, not strangers.

In this case, I'd say that charging the perpetrator with assault, battery and theft is appropriate. How it will turn out is unknown but I wouldn't be surprised to hear self-defense being brought up and accepted. That would leave a charge of theft to be plea bargained to a misdemeanor.

Thanks for pitching in with your view. It does sound to me that the grandfather was probably the hothead in this situation and the chatter got very mad when the grandfather started to imply that he had very despicable intentions towards the kids. The man then panicked from the implications of what might be in store for him.

I do not see this as a liberal (bleeding heart) interpretation of these facts but one than sees these in terms of common sense.

Maybe, the grandfather felt guilty for not paying more attention to his grandchild and her friends when she was at the pool and took this out on the man who did something rather stupid given the fear of child molestation and the like.

My assumptions are posted on what the cops actually did. I have more faith in their professional objectivity than some. I assume they talked to the witnesses and got a feel for what and when these events occurred and made no charges of a sexual deviance nature against the man who feared for his reputation and other things.

[outlaw]

Kids have taken over the family and priority pools. They're too noisy, always screaming and shouting, and the parents/grandparents think it's cute because it's their kids. If you want kids around all the time, why did you move to a 55+ development? Take your grandkids to Disneyworld, Seaworld, Universal, wherever. TV is turning into a vacation destination for grandkids because it is cheap to come here and use all the amenities, drive granddad's golf cart (cheaper than a E-ticket) and camp out at the pool all day for free. How would people like it if resident dogs were allowed at the family pools? Or Victoria Secret models were allowed? I didn't think so.

[golfing eagles]

Kids have taken over the family and priority pools. They're too noisy, always screaming and shouting, and the parents/grandparents think it's cute because it's their kids. If you want kids around all the time, why did you move to a 55+ development? Take your grandkids to Disneyworld, Seaworld, Universal, wherever. TV is turning into a vacation destination for grandkids because it is cheap to come here and use all the amenities, drive granddad's golf cart (cheaper than a E-ticket) and camp out at the pool all day for free. How would people like it if resident dogs were allowed at the family pools? Or Victoria Secret models were allowed? I didn't think so.

I don't get it. The reason for family pools is that grandkids DO visit. Who would move in to a 55+ community and not be able to have grandkids visit?
There are plenty of adult only pools, rarely are they overcrowded. Look at it this way---the family pools are an additional amenity for those who have visiting grandkids, the adult pools are "the norm". The priority pools may be a different matter, but how many people pay for priority membership just to get pools access? I imagine 99.9% do it for the golf. And if you did just get pool membership, you knew in advance it was a family pool. For those who want complete seclusion, put a pool on your lanai for about 100K (not serious)

[MDLNB]

Thanks for pitching in with your view. It does sound to me that the grandfather was probably the hothead in this situation and the chatter got very mad when the grandfather started to imply that he had very despicable intentions towards the kids. The man then panicked from the implications of what might be in store for him.

I do not see this as a liberal (bleeding heart) interpretation of these facts but one than sees these in terms of common sense.

Maybe, the grandfather felt guilty for not paying more attention to his grandchild and her friends when she was at the pool and took this out on the man who did something rather stupid given the fear of child molestation and the like.

My assumptions are posted on what the cops actually did. I have more faith in their professional objectivity than some. I assume they talked to the witnesses and got a feel for what and when these events occurred and made no charges of a sexual deviance nature against the man who feared for his reputation and other things.

I must have read a different article than some of you. Please enlighten me as to where you might have come up with the grandfather being the fault in this issue? Where did it say that the grandfather had an anger management problem. We already know that the suspect had anger issues. Why do you feel that the grandfather acted out of guilt? Did you read somewhere in the article that the grandfather neglected his granddaughter? I agree with the first two sentences in the second paragraph regarding the police officers' actions, until you get to the point where you act like the the suspect "feared for his reputation and other things."

No wonder people fear interaction with others. No telling how they will react and how witnesses will interpret such actions.

Regardless, the thread starts out generalizing about the younger aged causing problems. That's too bad that someone feels that way. That's almost as bad as those that generalize about STD's running rampant in The Villages. Bad choice of words to begin the thread.

Whether or not the suspect was out of line with the children, it probably doesn't matter in relation to charges. He was charged with assault as a result of disorderly conduct at the pool. Escaping from the fray, for unknown reasons right now, he also took the victim's cell phone. He was charged with theft. Reading anything more into this without better, more detailed reporting is fantasy.

[Taltarzac725]

I don't get it. The reason for family pools is that grandkids DO visit. Who would move in to a 55+ community and not be able to have grandkids visit?
There are plenty of adult only pools, rarely are they overcrowded. Look at it this way---the family pools are an additional amenity for those who have visiting grandkids, the adult pools are "the norm". The priority pools may be a different matter, but how many people pay for priority membership just to get pools access? I imagine 99.9% do it for the golf. And if you did just get pool membership, you knew in advance it was a family pool. For those who want complete seclusion, put a pool on your lanai for about 100K (not serious)

There are pools that you can do quite a lot in with respect to exercise and the like if you research when to go.

I have only been to the family pools when we have had nieces, nephews or other kids visiting. I would keep a close watch on them whenever we were there too.

[Sandtrap328]

The on-line article did not say which man threw the first punch. We do not know what Gramps said to the younger man nor in what tone it was said. We do not know if the girls were upset by what the man said in the pool. If Gramps had simply called nicely to his granddaughter that he would like her to come out of the pool, all this drama would not have happened.

Lots of unanswered questions because of a very poorly written article.

[MDLNB]

Kids have taken over the family and priority pools. They're too noisy, always screaming and shouting, and the parents/grandparents think it's cute because it's their kids. If you want kids around all the time, why did you move to a 55+ development? Take your grandkids to Disneyworld, Seaworld, Universal, wherever. TV is turning into a vacation destination for grandkids because it is cheap to come here and use all the amenities, drive granddad's golf cart (cheaper than a E-ticket) and camp out at the pool all day for free. How would people like it if resident dogs were allowed at the family pools? Or Victoria Secret models were allowed? I didn't think so.

If you don't appreciate family pools, the option is going to the adult pool or the sports pool. Or, spend a little money and join the country club and use their private pool, with a bar and hot tub. I too have issue with the underage (<14) children driving golf carts on the roads, but that is up to their parents and grandparents if they don't wish to obey the traffic laws and put their children in harms way. As far as dogs being allowed at family pools? I don't use the family pools so if the community wants to vote on it, so be it. Everyone I know has either a dog or cat and treats them like children. I love animals. And don't get me started regarding VS models. I'd be at the pool all the time, soaking up the cancer radiation. :thumbup::thumbup:

[MDLNB]

The on-line article did not say which man threw the first punch. We do not know what Gramps said to the younger man nor in what tone it was said. We do not know if the girls were upset by what the man said in the pool. If Gramps had simply called nicely to his granddaughter that he would like her to come out of the pool, all this drama would not have happened.

Lots of unanswered questions because of a very poorly written article.

I agree that the article was lacking in detail. However, you seem to want to charge the grandfather with fault in the matter. You state that it would not have happened if the grandfather would have ignored a possible problem and took his child away, ignoring the fact that there were at least two other little children in the pool too. Don't get me wrong, he may have been culpable, but there is no indication that he was. There was charges against the other subject though. We can't rewrite the incident to suit our liberal feelings, against the written claims. We also can't take liberties with the information to form another totally unfounded scenario. But, conversation is interesting if not imaginative on here.

[Topspinmo]

Wow, now it's grandpa fault. Did grandpa walk up to children and try to start conversation, especially saying he likes to talk to young girls? NO. Would that not be red flag To any of use with children? I sure we don't know nothing what when on, except grandpa got attacked and his property stolen for the accused to escape. Those are the facts we know we can assume what we think when on, but it don't look good for the younger villager does it!

[Topspinmo]

The guy probably didn't leave because he's probably a hot head, LOL :boxing2:
Yes, it is so much fun seeing kids and even their younger than us parents. I enjoy talking with them in a lively conversation. I don't go to the pools anymore because we have our own, but when we did, I always talked to the little kids.


Wouldn't it be viewed different being strange man ( young or old) talking to very young girls alone away from guardians? Just saying you being lady would not be scrutinized like men are?

[golfing eagles]

I think I would vote for keeping the dogs at the family pool and inviting the Victoria's Secret models to the adult pool:icon_wink:

[Taltarzac725]

I agree that the article was lacking in detail. However, you seem to want to charge the grandfather with fault in the matter. You state that it would not have happened if the grandfather would have ignored a possible problem and took his child away, ignoring the fact that there were at least two other little children in the pool too. Don't get me wrong, he may have been culpable, but there is no indication that he was. There was charges against the other subject though. We can't rewrite the incident to suit our liberal feelings, against the written claims. We also can't take liberties with the information to form another totally unfounded scenario. But, conversation is interesting if not imaginative on here.

I do not think I am taking liberty with the information just making the assumption that the Sumter County Sheriff's Office knows what it is doing. It did not charge the man with anything like making sexual advances on a minor. The grandfather charged into accusing the man without real evidence that he did anything wrong and the man got justifiably upset. Striking the grandfather is a criminal charge as is stealing the grandfather's cell phone. There probably would be other charges tacking on like evading arrest if this were not a situation where one hothead seems to have taken on another hothead. This is from the information Redwitch provided about the arguments at the pool heard by a TOTVer. I am a victim advocate as I have repeatedly said here since 2007 taking great risks with my career to improve victims' access to practical information accessible through or in libraries since January 1991 in my 224 613 Proejct. But, there is also common sense and accepting that most of the time the people involved in law enforcement investigations like this one, know exactly what they are doing. Try to empathize with each of the people in this real life drama. It sounds like the grandfather went way overboard protecting his grandchild. I do not have all the facts but assume that the Sumter County Sheriff's Office did a thorough investigation of this.

I will watch and see how this case is resolved. I do think that a good defense lawyer has a lot to work with in this one.

[outlaw]

If you don't appreciate family pools, the option is going to the adult pool or the sports pool. Or, spend a little money and join the country club and use their private pool, with a bar and hot tub. I too have issue with the underage (<14) children driving golf carts on the roads, but that is up to their parents and grandparents if they don't wish to obey the traffic laws and put their children in harms way. As far as dogs being allowed at family pools? I don't use the family pools so if the community wants to vote on it, so be it. Everyone I know has either a dog or cat and treats them like children. I love animals. And don't get me started regarding VS models. I'd be at the pool all the time, soaking up the cancer radiation. :thumbup::thumbup:

I joined the priority pools. They are also family pools. Kids pretty much every day in the summer and holiday season.

[outlaw]

I don't get it. The reason for family pools is that grandkids DO visit. Who would move in to a 55+ community and not be able to have grandkids visit?
There are plenty of adult only pools, rarely are they overcrowded. Look at it this way---the family pools are an additional amenity for those who have visiting grandkids, the adult pools are "the norm". The priority pools may be a different matter, but how many people pay for priority membership just to get pools access? I imagine 99.9% do it for the golf. And if you did just get pool membership, you knew in advance it was a family pool. For those who want complete seclusion, put a pool on your lanai for about 100K (not serious)

I partially agree with you. But I think TV has designated too many pools for children. All the family pools and all the priority (country club) pools allow kids. North of 466, there are not that many adult only pools. And the sport pools are not designed for relaxing. In fact, one cannot go there and just lay out in a chair in the sun; there are only benches.

[Licismom]

I was taught by a very wise professor years ago that I have the right to swing my fist all I want. However, my right to swing my fist, ended where his nose begins. The same is true for inappropriate behaviour, speech and actions in the presence of others. Something some seem to have forgotten. It's called civility.

[Barefoot]

The reason for family pools is that grandkids DO visit. Who would move in to a 55+ community and not be able to have grandkids visit? There are plenty of adult only pools, rarely are they overcrowded. Look at it this way---the family pools are an additional amenity for those who have visiting grandkids, the adult pools are "the norm".

The on-line article did not say which man threw the first punch. We do not know what Gramps said to the younger man nor in what tone it was said. We do not know if the girls were upset by what the man said in the pool. If Gramps had simply called nicely to his granddaughter that he would like her to come out of the pool, all this drama would not have happened. Lots of unanswered questions because of a very poorly written article.

Don't bother us with your sensible, well-written posts. :icon_wink:

[golfing eagles]

Don't bother us with your sensible, well-written posts. :icon_wink:

Sorry, bad habit:bigbow:

[graciegirl]

I was taught by a very wise professor years ago that I have the right to swing my fist all I want. However, my right to swing my fist, ended where his nose begins. The same is true for inappropriate behaviour, speech and actions in the presence of others. Something some seem to have forgotten. It's called civility.



I was taught the same thing.


And others who loved me chimed in. People who swagger and brag they are strong and have all kinds of degrees in martial arts makes everyone wonder why they are saying that. Most smart people don't EVER have to use force in their lives. EVER. They work hard to live where it is safe-er. They don't do unnecessary confrontations. They sense trouble and avoid it, are diplomatic in their speech and gently back away from folks who look dangerous.


Howsomever, I would and could rip apart anyone who tried to harm my children....but...if their teacher or a neighbor said they had eaten the strawberries or were late for class I would believe the teacher or neighbor and my kids would hear an earful.


As I said before, I would have gotten those kids OUT of the pool. NOW.
But I am NOT a grandfather, I am a grandmother, and men's instincts are different.

[MDLNB]

I do not think I am taking liberty with the information just making the assumption that the Sumter County Sheriff's Office knows what it is doing. It did not charge the man with anything like making sexual advances on a minor. The grandfather charged into accusing the man without real evidence that he did anything wrong and the man got justifiably upset. Striking the grandfather is a criminal charge as is stealing the grandfather's cell phone. There probably would be other charges tacking on like evading arrest if this were not a situation where one hothead seems to have taken on another hothead. This is from the information Redwitch provided about the arguments at the pool heard by a TOTVer. I am a victim advocate as I have repeatedly said here since 2007 taking great risks with my career to improve victims' access to practical information accessible through or in libraries since January 1991 in my 224 613 Proejct. But, there is also common sense and accepting that most of the time the people involved in law enforcement investigations like this one, know exactly what they are doing. Try to empathize with each of the people in this real life drama. It sounds like the grandfather went way overboard protecting his grandchild. I do not have all the facts but assume that the Sumter County Sheriff's Office did a thorough investigation of this.

I will watch and see how this case is resolved. I do think that a good defense lawyer has a lot to work with in this one.

I'm sorry, but I read the story and didn't see anything in there that seemed to indicate that it was the grandfather's fault. Either I missed it, you have information that I didn't know about, or you are seeing it different than what's stated. Even if what you indicate is true, that the grandfather was the hothead and shouted at the poor gent that was just having a conversation with three children, I don't see anywhere in the statutes where that is cause for an assault. If anything, I would say that it is the suspect that should have walked away, even if unjustly accused by the grandfather. But, maybe you have information that the rest of us don't have. Personally, I still figure the grandfather as a hero for protecting his grandchild, whether warranted or not. I would rather err on the side of protection than to ignore possible dangerous situations. If what you say is true and that same grandfather jumped in my face, I would attempt to reason with him in a low voice, assuring him that there was nothing untoward happening, and then if that didn't calm him, I would take my leave. I would not punch him and steal his cell phone. With a background conviction of assault, I think we know who was at fault and since the police didn't arrest the granddad, then it should be obvious it wasn't granddad that was wrong, but indeed wronged.
"Granddads lives matter too." :thumbup:

Just an observation, but I have noticed that those without children seem to take a much different view of how children should go about their daily lives. Children should feel secure and unafraid when they play. Too bad if some folks feel that all the pools should be there to cater to them only. Perhaps they should find an assisted living residence that has a private pool where they won't have to worry about hearing children laugh and play. Just my opinion.

My opinion may be wrong. I read two articles regarding the incident. Neither one of them provided much detail. I allow that my view of the incident is based only on the information I have available and it could be flawed. If this suspect is innocent then the court should reveal that. But, to immediately jump to the conclusion that he did this because the grandfather accosted him, and then blame the grandfather for causing the situation, just seems a bit skewed to me. I don't buy it.

The second part of my diatribe was addressing the family pool discussion and not your conversation regarding the cause of the assault. It probably could have been separate.

[Taltarzac725]

I'm sorry, but I read the story and didn't see anything in there that seemed to indicate that it was the grandfather's fault. Either I missed it, you have information that I didn't know about, or you are seeing it different than what's stated. Even if what you indicate is true, that the grandfather was the hothead and shouted at the poor gent that was just having a conversation with three children, I don't see anywhere in the statutes where that is cause for an assault. If anything, I would say that it is the suspect that should have walked away, even if unjustly accused by the grandfather. But, maybe you have information that the rest of us don't have. Personally, I still figure the grandfather as a hero for protecting his grandchild, whether warranted or not. I would rather err on the side of protection than to ignore possible dangerous situations. If what you say is true and that same grandfather jumped in my face, I would attempt to reason with him in a low voice, assuring him that there was nothing untoward happening, and then if that didn't calm him, I would take my leave. I would not punch him and steal his cell phone. With a background conviction of assault, I think we know who was at fault and since the police didn't arrest the granddad, then it should be obvious it wasn't granddad that was wrong, but indeed wronged.
"Granddads lives matter too." :thumbup:

Just an observation, but I have noticed that those without children seem to take a much different view of how children should go about their daily lives. Children should feel secure and unafraid when they play. Too bad if some folks feel that all the pools should be there to cater to them only. Perhaps they should find an assisted living residence that has a private pool where they won't have to worry about hearing children laugh and play. Just my opinion.

My opinion may be wrong. I read two articles regarding the incident. Neither one of them provided much detail. I allow that my view of the incident is based only on the information I have available and it could be flawed. If this suspect is innocent then the court should reveal that. But, to immediately jump to the conclusion that he did this because the grandfather accosted him, and then blame the grandfather for causing the situation, just seems a bit skewed to me. I don't buy it.

The second part of my diatribe was addressing the family pool discussion and not your conversation regarding the cause of the assault. It probably could have been separate.

I do not see any heroes in the situation. Also, no reason to charge the grandfather with anything as he is the "victim" in the battery. Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0784/Sections/0784.03.html)

The grandfather contributed to the confrontation though unless the cops did not have enough evidence to charge this man for trying to pick up the girls in the pool. There should have been evidence though if the police interviewed people at the pool like these three kids. I am assuming that the girls were asked about what the man was talking with them about before the grandfather got so livid.

I do not see someone who gets into a rage without getting the facts as a hero.

[MDLNB]

I do not see any heroes in the situation. Also, no reason to charge the grandfather with anything as he is the "victim" in the battery. Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0784/Sections/0784.03.html)

The grandfather contributed to the confrontation though unless the cops did not have enough evidence to charge this man for trying to pick up the girls in the pool. There should have been evidence though if the police interviewed people at the pool like these three kids. I am assuming that the girls were asked about what the man was talking with them about before the grandfather got so livid.

I do not see someone who gets into a rage without getting the facts as a hero.

Where are you getting this information? You must have a source of information that I didn't see.

"The grandfather contributed to the confrontation" ????
"before the grandfather got so livid" ????

Is this something that was quoted from a witness, or are you embellishing what you believe happened in your mind? Just asking because maybe I am wrong, if what you say is true.

"I do not see someone that gets into a RAGE without getting the facts as a hero." ???? What facts do you have that the grandfather did not have?

I thought you were a lawyer, but after reading your interpretation, it sounds like you have written a totally different incident. Maybe you have more details of the incident that you could share? Because I totally don't see it the way you are seeing it, just based on that article. No offense meant. I mean this as a question, not as an insult or trying to be derisive. I am really curious. If you are embellishing the story, then you are tainting this as would a defense lawyer would in court.

Based on what information I have right now, I applaud the grandfather for attempting to protect those children from what he conceived to be a possible threat, real or implied. I certainly would hope that someone such as that gentleman would be around if my grandchildren were possibly/possibly accosted at the pool. Yep, until I get more facts, he is a hero and the other guy is a suspected criminal.

I don't look for trouble. I would rather walk away from a confrontation. But, when it comes to protection of others, I will stand my ground, whether I know the victim or not. We need more folks that will stand up for those less able to defend themselves. If that is old fashioned, I don't apologize. If my wife ever needs assistance and I find out that someone didn't want to get involved, shame on them.

It is not the grandfather that should have walked away, but the suspect. If the grandfather was wrong, the suspect should have been the one to walk away, not the grandfather. If the suspect would have walked away then there would probably not have been a fight and he wouldn't have found it necessary to steal the cell phone. Sorry, but regardless of whether or not the grandfather was wrong, the other guy could have avoided the confrontation and the criminal charges. If the grandfather would have pursued the guy, then it would have been the grandfather being charged. I was not there and I have not seen any details that suggested that the grandfather did anything wrong. I am not saying that this information does not exist. I just haven't seen anything to suggest the embellishments of facts in your comment.

Just one more point I would like to share. When I was in Turkey, a friend of mine parked his car legally on the side of the street. During the day, another car ran into his car, damaging it. Who's fault was it? The police found both cars to be at fault because one ran into the other and the other was at fault because it was parked (legally) in that spot. If the car was not there, then it would not have been damaged. That is how they see vehicle accidents. I understand how you might feel that the incident would not have occurred if the grandfather was not there, so therefore the fault should be shared.

[redwitch]

I think Tal got some of his ideas from one of my posts. If you read all of the posts, someone said that they had heard a lot of shouting and cursing as they drove by in their golf cart. From what I could gather, it was at least two parties yelling at each other.

Personally, if someone were to accuse me of something nefarious because I was talking to some kids, I would try to explain my innocence and assure whomever no harm was meant. If I was the grandparent feeling my grandson was in danger, I'm not sure I would really hear what was being said. I can easily see this turning into a serious confrontation. i don't know the facts, but I sincerely doubt the grandfather was entirely innocent in this whole mess. I think it probably could have been handled better by both of these men. And why should someone have to leave a pool if doing nothing wrong just because someone else perceives wrongdoing?

[Bonny]

I think Tal got some of his ideas from one of my posts. If you read all of the posts, someone said that they had heard a lot of shouting and cursing as they drove by in their golf cart. From what I could gather, it was at least two parties yelling at each other.

Personally, if someone were to accuse me of something nefarious because I was talking to some kids, I would try to explain my innocence and assure whomever no harm was meant. If I was the grandparent feeling my grandson was in danger, I'm not sure I would really hear what was being said. I can easily see this turning into a serious confrontation. i don't know the facts, but I sincerely doubt the grandfather was entirely innocent in this whole mess. I think it probably could have been handled better by both of these men. And why should someone have to leave a pool if doing nothing wrong just because someone else perceives wrongdoing?
I totally agree ! There's a lot to this we don't know and we probably will never know the whole story. Everything here is pretty much speculation

[MDLNB]

For some reason, many folks on here believe that the grandfather was wrong for trying to protect the children. I hope those folks aren't at the pool when my wife takes the grandkids. You are assuming that the suspect is innocent. You are saying that the grandfather should have taken his grandkid and left, thereby alleviating any possibility of an altercation. That leaves two ten year olds in the pool if they were not under the supervision of the grandfather. Ok, you established guilt on the grandfather because he didn't avoid confrontation. Let's take that scenario further. Suppose, instead of confronting the suspect, he left with his grandchild, leaving the other two in the pool with the 41 year old suspect. Rather than assuming his innocence and the grandfather's guilt, lets assume the 41 yr old is a pervert. Hey, assumptions go both ways. What happens to those two children? How would that grandfather feel if he left them to their plight and they were molested? How would you feel about the grandfather then? Still guilty, right? So, no matter what he does, or doesn't do, he earned your skeptical conviction of guilt. Now, assume that the grandfather sees this character that appears shady (liberal interpretation since everyone else has been quite liberal with theirs) and tells the girls to get out of the pool. Perhaps the 41 yo is offended and stalks (liberal interpretation) up to the grandfather and accuses him of insinuating that he is a pervert to his children. The grandfather attempts to deny this and the 41yo strikes him and they fight. Is it still the grandfather's fault because he couldn't avoid the altercation? How about if the grandfather told the kids to get out of the pool and away from that pervert (liberal interp) and tried to leave, when the 41 yo stepped in front of him and started shouting. Gramps tries to step around him when he is suddenly punched in the face or shoved. He tries to escape, shouting his protest and attempting to call the police. The guy grabs his phone and runs, leaping over the fence. Gramps, trying to get his phone back, jumps after him but can't catch him. Is it still Gramp's fault? Perhaps if he wouldn't have removed the children from the pool and thereby embarrassing the gentleman, he could have avoided the altercation?

The facts are that John Gagnon had been arrested on at least two previous occasions for assault and drug related charges. I'm sure these were not his fault.

The article that I read, suggested that gramps told his grandkid to leave the pool and asked Gagnon why he was talking to the kids. Gagnon gave him a smart a** response and told gramps to come get a piece of him. Then he struck gramps in the face. Although, I could see how gramps could have gotten "livid" even if the article did not suggest that. I didn't see in the article where gagnon was accused of anything, but just asked why he was talking to the children. Perhaps, he was on drugs or intoxicated and that sent off alarms in gramps. Who knows, but I wouldn't automatically assume that gramps caused the problem. It appears by gagnon's back ground criminal violations, that he is not the paragon of civility.

Hero is loosely defined as one with courage and honor. It takes courage to stand up for what you think is right, and against one much younger than you.

Could this have been avoided. No doubt. Does it take two to dance, yep. I still applaud Grandpa for his courage and honor. Until someone shows me where he was out of line, I'll stick to that.

[TheVillageChicken]

Somebody's slacking. We are 137 posts into this thread and no one has thrown out the ubiquitous "Granddad might be in the early stages of dementia" theory.

[outlaw]

Maybe the young guy asked the kids to quiet down and quit screaming, or go down to the other end of the pool and leave him alone. This probably woke grandpa up from his nap, and upset him that anyone would think his grandchildren were anything but perfect little angels. The young guy may have told grandpa that the kids were making too much noise, which sent grandpa into a hissy fit. The young guy, seeing that grandpa was angrily moving toward him, decided in a split second to defend himself by throwing a punch just as grandpa was bringing his arm up to throw his own hay maker. It may have been a case of a younger quicker man beating an older slower man to the punch. In all the excitement, the traumatized young man grabbed what he thought was his phone (they all pretty much look alike), and decided to get out of there before grandpa got up and fetched a firearm that was in a bag over by the chair where he was sleeping. At any rate, it looks like it could have just been a misunderstanding that grandpa escalated because he's p!ssed off that the MMPs are going to be striped and the tree killers are not going to have to serve any prison time.

[MDLNB]

Maybe the young guy asked the kids to quiet down and quit screaming, or go down to the other end of the pool and leave him alone. This probably woke grandpa up from his nap, and upset him that anyone would think his grandchildren were anything but perfect little angels. The young guy may have told grandpa that the kids were making too much noise, which sent grandpa into a hissy fit. The young guy, seeing that grandpa was angrily moving toward him, decided in a split second to defend himself by throwing a punch just as grandpa was bringing his arm up to throw his own hay maker. It may have been a case of a younger quicker man beating an older slower man to the punch. In all the excitement, the traumatized young man grabbed what he thought was his phone (they all pretty much look alike), and decided to get out of there before grandpa got up and fetched a firearm that was in a bag over by the chair where he was sleeping. At any rate, it looks like it could have just been a misunderstanding that grandpa escalated because he's p!ssed off that the MMPs are going to be striped and the tree killers are not going to have to serve any prison time.

:coolsmiley:

[Bogie Shooter]

I totally agree ! There's a lot to this we don't know and we probably will never know the whole story. Everything here is pretty much speculation

Contact the people with a lot of posts on the tree cutting thread.......they will get you the whole story.

[Taltarzac725]

I think Tal got some of his ideas from one of my posts. If you read all of the posts, someone said that they had heard a lot of shouting and cursing as they drove by in their golf cart. From what I could gather, it was at least two parties yelling at each other.

Personally, if someone were to accuse me of something nefarious because I was talking to some kids, I would try to explain my innocence and assure whomever no harm was meant. If I was the grandparent feeling my grandson was in danger, I'm not sure I would really hear what was being said. I can easily see this turning into a serious confrontation. i don't know the facts, but I sincerely doubt the grandfather was entirely innocent in this whole mess. I think it probably could have been handled better by both of these men. And why should someone have to leave a pool if doing nothing wrong just because someone else perceives wrongdoing?

Thanks. My assumptions about the grandfather are from the information that no sexual advances on a minor charges are anywhere suggested as having been placed against the man who hit the grandfather. The articles I have read suggest that the grandfather was protecting the kids from unwanted attentions of the 41 year old.

And I do not see challenging a younger man as something heroic unless a physical confrontation is in your mindset to begin with.

The heroic thing have been to get the kids out of the pool as soon as possible, find out what the man had actually said to the kids, and then call 9/11 if there was anything criminal in a man getting too close to young children in a pool. Talk to witnesses too in order to see if they heard anything criminal in comments made to the kids. Again, I am also assuming that the Sumter County Sheriff's Office did their professional duty and actually investigated what happened and when at that pool.

[Bonny]

Maybe the young guy asked the kids to quiet down and quit screaming, or go down to the other end of the pool and leave him alone. This probably woke grandpa up from his nap, and upset him that anyone would think his grandchildren were anything but perfect little angels. The young guy may have told grandpa that the kids were making too much noise, which sent grandpa into a hissy fit. The young guy, seeing that grandpa was angrily moving toward him, decided in a split second to defend himself by throwing a punch just as grandpa was bringing his arm up to throw his own hay maker. It may have been a case of a younger quicker man beating an older slower man to the punch. In all the excitement, the traumatized young man grabbed what he thought was his phone (they all pretty much look alike), and decided to get out of there before grandpa got up and fetched a firearm that was in a bag over by the chair where he was sleeping. At any rate, it looks like it could have just been a misunderstanding that grandpa escalated because he's p!ssed off that the MMPs are going to be striped and the tree killers are not going to have to serve any prison time.
:clap2:

[Bonny]

Contact the people with a lot of posts on the tree cutting thread.......they will get you the whole story.
:icon_wink:

[MDLNB]

Yes, we all know that old folks are always cranky and get angry at the least provoking. That's why they hang out at the pool, to soak their aching bones and bunions. We can all sympathize with a younger guy that is probably detoxing from his drug habit and trying to ease his lonely, misunderstood feelings by chatting with three young people. People that are young enough not to misinterpret his scrungy appearance and blood shot eyes. Too bad that old hard case had to interrupt him while he was in his peaceful zone. He hardly even hit the old guy, and only took his cell phone because his own had a dead battery. He was just going to call the police for protection against the demented old guy that was shouting and screaming at him about.. what??? What's this about his pants hanging too low? What??? What children? Were there children in the pool? Put your teeth in when you are hollering at me, you old fool! I don't understand anything you are shouting about. This guy is going to have a coronary if I don't leave real fast. Yep, I am saving his life by running away. I'll call for a medic with his phone. There's the police now. I'll just wave them over and give them directions to where the old fool is located. They'll know how to help him until the medics get there. What?? Why are you handcuffing me? You don't understand, I was just minding my own business. I wasn't bothering anyone. I just want to help the old guy. I am a good Samaritan.

[redwitch]

MDL, not going to copy your response (too long and too much of a pain to edit it on iPad) but do want to respond to a couple of points. I don't see anyone saying the younger guy is innocent. In fact, I think most of us firmly believe arresting him for striking the grandfather and for the theft of the phone was the right course of action. I think we're saying the grandfather may well have escalated the whole thing. I don't see his actions as heroic nor do I see them as villainous. I see them as perfectly human. Humans have a tendency to overreact. We say and do many wrong things when our adrenaline is flowing. I do believe both men probably overreacted. Our justice system will have to sort this out.

[Bonny]

MDL, not going to copy your response (too long and too much of a pain to edit it on iPad) but do want to respond to a couple of points. I don't see anyone saying the younger guy is innocent. In fact, I think most of us firmly believe arresting him for striking the grandfather and for the theft of the phone was the right course of action. I think we're saying the grandfather may well have escalated the whole thing. I don't see his actions as heroic nor do I see them as villainous. I see them as perfectly human. Humans have a tendency to overreact. We say and do many wrong things when our adrenaline is flowing. I do believe both men probably overreacted. Our justice system will have to sort this out.
:agree:

[Greg Nelson]

you're a master of your words..until you speak them

[outlaw]

MDL, not going to copy your response (too long and too much of a pain to edit it on iPad) but do want to respond to a couple of points. I don't see anyone saying the younger guy is innocent. In fact, I think most of us firmly believe arresting him for striking the grandfather and for the theft of the phone was the right course of action. I think we're saying the grandfather may well have escalated the whole thing. I don't see his actions as heroic nor do I see them as villainous. I see them as perfectly human. Humans have a tendency to overreact. We say and do many wrong things when our adrenaline is flowing. I do believe both men probably overreacted. Our justice system will have to sort this out.

Uh, MDL was kidding.....

[MDLNB]

you're a master of your words..until you speak them

:agree:

Just words. Words to make one think, but not very good at expressing them.

Have a great day, all. It was an interesting conversation, and I value all of you and your opinions. I am out numbered so I will take a gentle retreat....and get a haircut..:icon_wink:

[MDLNB]

Parting shot:

He is my HERO... until I get to know him. :spoken:

[mwilli]

Sad to think this is happening in our community

[Taltarzac725]

Sad to think this is happening in our community

There are not that many hotheads in the Villages fortunately. Two seemed to have crossed paths in this instance. And, sexual advances on minors is quite rare in the Villages as far as I know. Of course, relative to other communities of our size we have very few kids around.

[CWGUY]

I do not see any heroes in the situation. Also, no reason to charge the grandfather with anything as he is the "victim" in the battery. Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0784/Sections/0784.03.html)

The grandfather contributed to the confrontation though unless the cops did not have enough evidence to charge this man for trying to pick up the girls in the pool. There should have been evidence though if the police interviewed people at the pool like these three kids. I am assuming that the girls were asked about what the man was talking with them about before the grandfather got so livid.

I do not see someone who gets into a rage without getting the facts as a hero.

Today on the other site: :ohdear: He has been granted �indigent status� and will be represented by the public defender.

My question - Tal, why don't you jump in and defend him and save us tax payers a few bucks? :coolsmiley:

[MDLNB]

Today on the other site: :ohdear: He has been granted �indigent status� and will be represented by the public defender.

My question - Tal, why don't you jump in and defend him and save us tax payers a few bucks? :coolsmiley:

:thumbup::agree:

[Taltarzac725]

Today on the other site: :ohdear: He has been granted “indigent status” and will be represented by the public defender.

My question - Tal, why don't you jump in and defend him and save us tax payers a few bucks? :coolsmiley:

I will have to watch this as it develops. https://www2.myfloridacounty.com/ccm/?county=60

https://www2.myfloridacounty.com/ccm/do/clericusdocket?q1=RhzGUFV8UDUxZMo0z5z70w&q2=43f44a0a10c84a084ad75b03b4229532

[MDLNB]

I will have to watch this as it develops. https://www2.myfloridacounty.com/ccm/?county=60

https://www2.myfloridacounty.com/ccm/do/clericusdocket?q1=RhzGUFV8UDUxZMo0z5z70w&q2=43f44a0a10c84a084ad75b03b4229532

Yes, perhaps they will release this guy out to the community again, because he is such a shining example of civility. :icon_wink:

[Taltarzac725]

Just read about a 41 year old assaulting a grandfather in The Villages who was protecting is granddaughter at a pool. It happens far to often that an underage resident is the cause of trouble and criminal activity.

I hope they throw the book at this jerk. I don't want him talking to my grandkids.

There was an underage Villager reported to have been allegedly stalking a woman around Lady Lake and the Villages according to the site with no name. I was a victim/survivor of a female stalker along with my then live-in girlfriend Jennifer V., back when I was doing some reference work, cataloging foreign language books and finishing up the WESTLAW cataloging project at the University of Minnesota Law Library. This was for most of the 1989-1990 academic year. And I remember that Jennifer complained bitterly to the then Law Librarian, M. Kathleen Price about the stalker Gail P. Gail P., had targeted a Math Professor at the University of Minnesota and had chained herself to his desk. She was at the reference desk while I was working and at other times too because she was working on her defense against charges brought by him.

The University of Minnesota at that time could not do much about Gail P., until she followed me home and I confronted her about it.

Looking back I do think she was slightly mentally ill or just terribly lonely.

Jennifer V., was a student of mine at Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners who asked me to move in with her after I graduated from Law School in 1989. A Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners legal secretary played match-maker and persuaded her to just ask me to move in with her as a way of really getting to know me. Jennifer V., went on to be a Prosecutor in a small town in Iowa before moving on to something else.

Jennifer V., did try to talk me out of fighting for law libraries getting more practical materials in their collections for survivors/victims of crimes ( what would become my 224 613 Project) as did many of my friends from the University of Minnesota Law School but I can be incredibly stubborn when I get my teeth into something that I know has to be done.

Anyway, I just wanted to relate my experiences with stalking and mention the survivor/victim of an alleged stalking here recently in the Villages and Lady Lake. It seems to be with domestic violence a rather common crime. I did try to help Gail P., with her legal research defending herself from the U of MN Math Professor but that was just doing my job as a reference librarian. What resulted was almost a full academic year of stalking of me and Jennifer V., and what seemed to be an impotent U of MN police Dep't in taking actions to stop this stalking.

M. Kathleen Price would become the Law Librarian of Congress around 1991 through 1995. Then go onto to be Law Librarian at NYU and finally to the University of Florida.

[MDLNB]

There was an underage Villager reported to have been allegedly stalking a woman around Lady Lake and the Villages according to the site with no name. I was a victim/survivor of a female stalker along with my then live-in girlfriend Jennifer V., back when I was doing some reference work, cataloging foreign language books and finishing up the WESTLAW cataloging project at the University of Minnesota Law Library. This was for most of the 1989-1990 academic year. And I remember that Jennifer complained bitterly to the then Law Librarian, M. Kathleen Price about the stalker Gail P. Gail P., had targeted a Math Professor at the University of Minnesota and had chained herself to his desk. She was at the reference desk while I was working and at other times to because she was working on her defense against charges brought by him.

The University of Minnesota at that time could not do much about Gail P., until she followed me home and I confronted her about it.

Looking back I do think she was slightly mentally ill or just terribly lonely.

Jennifer V., was a student of mine at Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners who asked me to move in with her after I graduated from Law School in 1989. A Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners legal secretary played match-maker and persuaded her to just ask me to move in with her as a way of really getting to know me. Jennifer V., went on to be a Prosecutor in a small town in Iowa before moving on to something else.

Jennifer V., did try to talk me out of fighting for law libraries getting more practical materials in their collections for survivors/victims of crimes ( what would become my 224 613 Project) as did many of my friends from the University of Minnesota Law School but I can be incredibly stubborn when I get my teeth into something that I know has to be done.

Anyway, I just wanted to relate my experiences with stalking and mention the survivor/victim of an alleged stalking here recently in the Villages and Lady Lake. It seems to be with domestic violence a rather common crime. I did try to help Gail P., with her legal research defending herself from the U of MN Math Professor but that was just doing my job as a reference librarian. What resulted was almost a full academic year of stalking of me and Jennifer V., and what seemed to be an impotent U of MN police Dep't in taking actions to stop this stalking.

M. Kathleen Price would become the Law Librarian of Congress around 1991 through 1995. Then go onto to be Law Librarian at NYU and finally to the University of Florida.

What does this have to do with the incident?

[Taltarzac725]

What does this have to do with the incident?

I am talking about ANOTHER matter brought up by the site that must not be named. That's the alleged stalking of a woman by a Villages under 55 man. I was just informing people about my own experiences with a stalker but this was for a much longer period and during a period where the law did not give victims/survivors that many rights and/or options. This was primarily at an extremely liberal law school library in 1989-1990.

I did not want to start another thread for yet another "underage and causing a problem" person who was arrested here in the Villages for allegedly doing something criminal.

Empathy is extremely important for understanding the needs of victims/survivors of crimes. Especially when this relates to informational needs in libraries or accessible through libraries. https://www.victimsofcrime.org/our-programs/stalking-resource-center

[MDLNB]

I am talking about ANOTHER matter brought up by the site that must not be named. That's the alleged stalking of a woman by a Villages under 55 man. I was just informing people about my own experiences with a stalker but this was for a much longer period and during a period where the law did not give victims/survivors that many rights and/or options. This was primarily at an extremely liberal law school library in 1989-1990.

I did not want to start another thread for yet another "underage and causing a problem" person who was arrested here in the Villages for allegedly doing something criminal.

Empathy is extremely important for understanding the needs of victims/survivors of crimes. Especially when this relates to informational needs in libraries or accessible through libraries. https://www.victimsofcrime.org/our-programs/stalking-resource-center

:shrug::confused: Ok....