Green Speeds

[JGVillages]

For those of you that have experienced fast (9-11 stimp) smooth greens prior to moving to The Villages I have a question to ponder. Do you putt better on fast (9-11) greens or slower (7-8) greens"? I hear all the time that players who do not play fast greens regularily fear them. Logically a 40 foot putt, or realistically any distance, that allows you to take a considerably shorter and probably more on line stroke will result in better scoring, and will be friendly to all with practice. I am not getting into the controversy here as to why The Villages keeps the greens slow the majority of the time, just the concept of putting on slower or faster greens? What do you think?

[Polar Bear]

Most putts end up past the hole. (Like Lee Trevino said...a very high percentage of putts that are short do not go in the hole. :) ) Faster greens mean longer come back putts...meaning higher scores on average.

[golfing eagles]

For those of you that have experienced fast (9-11 stimp) smooth greens prior to moving to The Villages I have a question to ponder. Do you putt better on fast (9-11) greens or slower (7-8) greens"? I hear all the time that players who do not play fast greens regularily fear them. Logically a 40 foot putt, or realistically any distance, that allows you to take a considerably shorter and probably more on line stroke will result in better scoring, and will be friendly to all with practice. I am not getting into the controversy here as to why The Villages keeps the greens slow the majority of the time, just the concept of putting on slower or faster greens? What do you think?

My home course greens are generally 12-13. When I hit the course with 7-8, I leave everything short. Then when I adjust I hit it 5 feet by. Last time I played in TV, which was April, I had 9 3 putts and a 4 putt. Trust me, there is no joy greater than hitting #1 of Egret into a 20 mph wind from 537 yds drive-3 wood 17 feet from the pin, only to walk away with a 5, and that was only because I sunk a 3 1/2 footer

[bagboy]

I worked at a country club in Myrtle Beach for over 10 years. I can tell you from experience, average golfers love fast greens, rave about how fast and true they are. And... average golfers can't putt on fast greens (9 or faster). Fast greens with any amount of grain, break, or front to back slope leads to 3, 4 or more putts. And that drastically slows play .

[Marathon Man]

After three months, I am still adjusting to the greens. I miss my bent grass greens of the mid-west. I prefer faster greens. Yes, you may have more break to deal with. But the shorter backswing of the putter keeps me on line more easily.

[JoMar]

I putt better on fast greens....except on downhill putts :)

[fred53]

My home course greens are generally 12-13. When I hit the course with 7-8, I leave everything short. Then when I adjust I hit it 5 feet by. Last time I played in TV, which was April, I had 9 3 putts and a 4 putt. Trust me, there is no joy greater than hitting #1 of Egret into a 20 mph wind from 537 yds drive-3 wood 17 feet from the pin, only to walk away with a 5, and that was only because I sunk a 3 1/2 footer

Augusta National? Very few courses can maintain speeds that great due to the inability of keeping the grass alive at that length for any period of time(months). Many of the professional tour stops don't keep the greens at tournament speeds after the event has played there...so please tell us where this place is...must be wicked expensive...

[fred53]

I prefer speeds up to about a 10...the reason most greens here don't see that is because of the difficulty in maintaining a healthy green with grass that short(it's one reason you see pro event greens turning brown on occasion)....another reason is because if you have fast greens you limit the pin positions to areas where there isn't to much slope and since the fine, but mostly non-golfing folks who set the exec greens don't play you get the pins in such silly locations that with fast greens you have people 6 putting....

"Logically a 40 foot putt, or realistically any distance, that allows you to take a considerably shorter and probably more on line stroke will result in better scoring, and will be friendly to all with practice."...not sure how you come up with this conclusion...if you can't putt slowish greens it's more often than not due to not being able to read the line and fast or slow that is a priority...with slow greens you get more foot print retention and that knocks the ball off line(even if you've read it correctly)and it also causes the ball to bounce around more and that also knocks it off line...having fast greens usually only results in better scores by golfers who are better at utilizing that advantage...

The bottom line is that anyone that practices seriously appreciates smooth and quicker greens rather than slow and bumpy(they do go together)and once a serious golfer(and there just aren't that many...although you do have more than enough people who claim to be serious, but don't even know how to practice correctly)gets used to smooth/fast it's easier to find the line and putt on that line...so yes I prefer them fast, but can also putt on slow and bumpy...

As to the controversy you tried to shunt aside(hard to do when you yourself bring it up)the greens are kept slow because they're easier to maintain and the vast majority of golfers here wouldn't be able to consciously appreciate smooth fast greens for the advantage they allow...how do I know....they keep "water" balls available at all times...their practice swing is nothing like their actual swing..."mulligans"..."what rules?"...iron protectors, towel hanging from pocket...ball retriever....don't get me wrong...I play with many of these folks all the time and enjoy playing with them more than most of the "better" golfers...at least most of them realize they will never play really well and just enjoy the time outside....

[Polar Bear]

Are we talking about which type of greens (fast or slow) we prefer/like? Or are we talking which is going to produce...in the long run...higher or lower scores? Regardless of which type you might prefer to play, in my opinion...

If you talk about just green speed, not bumpiness, etc., players of all caliber are going to take more putts in the long run on faster greens. It's almost a mathematical certainty. Pros may not play truly slow greens very often, but when they do, they demolish them...no fear of going past too far, cutting down the amount of break they have to play, etc. A good part of the difficulty of top courses/top tournaments is the lightning speed of the greens. Take that away, the difficulty is reduced dramatically.

The principle would only be magnified for lesser-talented golfers.

(And fred53...I totally agree with you about some of the silly pin positions on the executive courses. Some would be basically "illegal" by any accepted standards. :) )

[dbussone]

I putt better on fast greens....except on downhill putts :)

And don't forget the dreaded uphill shot that one leaves short.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Play the ball as it lies and play the course as you find it. The ability to adjust to different conditions is the mark of a good player. Blaming the speed of the greens is making an excuse. You should be able to adjust to green speeds after an hour or so on the practice green.

The exception is, of course, when greens are extremely fast and very undulating, That's what makes Augusta National so difficult. The it becomes a game of making your mistakes in the right places.

I doubt that many golfers will ever experience green speeds over 10.

[golfing eagles]

Augusta National? Very few courses can maintain speeds that great due to the inability of keeping the grass alive at that length for any period of time(months). Many of the professional tour stops don't keep the greens at tournament speeds after the event has played there...so please tell us where this place is...must be wicked expensive...

Sorry, meant to say they're 13 for tournaments. Normally 10-11. I like them fast, but sometimes there is too fast. Number 2 at my course is 2-tiered and slopes severely back to front. If you are on the upper tier, your putt will go off the front of the green no matter what you do. One year in the member guest tourney, I saw a guest putt from the back of the green down to the 100 yd marker, the greenskeeper had also shaved the apron in the front and it's all downhill from there. Maybe the pros can tear up a slow green, but I've found it tends to alter my putting stroke so I pull it left.

[Mikeod]

(And fred53...I totally agree with you about some of the silly pin positions on the executive courses. Some would be basically "illegal" by any accepted standards. :) )

Just FYI, if you find a really silly hole position on an executive course, notify the facility manager responsible for the course so they can change it. For example, one day they cut the hole on #9 at Roosevelt right at the top of the false front. Putting from below the hole saw the ball roll up, then back off the front of the green, If you were above the hole, and hit it slightly too hard, it went off the green. If you were pin high to the side, and misread the amount of break, off the green it went. A call to Havana pro shop and they sent someone out to move the hole.

And another thing, one day at Bogart, they had the hole cut in the back left area. That area was noticeably thin and brown, whereas the rest of the green looked very good. We reported it to Dan Machande at Mallory because it seemed they would want to minimize traffic in that stressed area and the hole was moved.

[JGVillages]

Augusta National? Very few courses can maintain speeds that great due to the inability of keeping the grass alive at that length for any period of time(months). Many of the professional tour stops don't keep the greens at tournament speeds after the event has played there...so please tell us where this place is...must be wicked expensive...

Augusta National at 9, NEVER ~ 10, on a rainy bad day~ 11, OK their slow fast.
Speeds 9-11 regularily~
World Woods~Homassa / Juliette Falls~Ocala / Red Tail~Sorento / Mission Inn El Campeion~Howey-in-the Hills just to name a few. Spring/Summer/Fall rates in the non-wicked $35-$45 range. Winter rates a bit higher but not wicked.
PS~ 9 or 10 are not tournament speeds normally.

[JGVillages]

Play the ball as it lies and play the course as you find it. The ability to adjust to different conditions is the mark of a good player. Blaming the speed of the greens is making an excuse. You should be able to adjust to green speeds after an hour or so on the practice green.

The exception is, of course, when greens are extremely fast and very undulating, That's what makes Augusta National so difficult. The it becomes a game of making your mistakes in the right places.

I doubt that many golfers will ever experience green speeds over 10.

Consider me, and my golf buddies one of the "many". I played 9-11 speed greens all my playing life before moving here. Been here 9 1/2 years and I would like to play faster greens for awhile and let others "adjust", just to even things out.

[Callaway Guy]

I like fast greens, their so much easier to putt on and the breaks on putts are more true and easier to read.

[fred53]

Augusta National at 9, NEVER ~ 10, on a rainy bad day~ 11, OK their slow fast.
Speeds 9-11 regularily~
World Woods~Homassa / Juliette Falls~Ocala / Red Tail~Sorento / Mission Inn El Campeion~Howey-in-the Hills just to name a few. Spring/Summer/Fall rates in the non-wicked $35-$45 range. Winter rates a bit higher but not wicked.
PS~ 9 or 10 are not tournament speeds normally.

in the 60's they didn't have the stimpmeter and if you watch old Masters from that era they ran about 8/9...

[fred53]

Consider me, and my golf buddies one of the "many". I played 9-11 speed greens all my playing life before moving here. Been here 9 1/2 years and I would like to play faster greens for awhile and let others "adjust", just to even things out.

you're one of the few...out of millions of golfers who experience what you claim... very few courses maintain anything over a 9+...to much stress...to much work...quite a few private courses do maintain about a 10, but I seriously doubt your claim to an 11 unless your course had huge flatish greens and a monster overhead...

Perhaps bragging rights? Like...I average 275/280 off the tee...with 60 yards of roll and 70yd wide fairways...no offense, but I suppose if you're accustomed to paying $200+ green fees you could chase the speedy greens from course to course...11 on the stimp is like putting on smooth cement...so if your claim is true you must be near scratch or even a + hndcp...possible for sure...:BigApplause::BigApplause:

[golf2140]

According to Yogi, 98% of the putts that are short of the hole, won't go in. !!!

[JGVillages]

in the 60's they didn't have the stimpmeter and if you watch old Masters from that era they ran about 8/9...

In the 60's they did not have the advanced strains of grasses that the USGA and others have developed. The Villages has Bermuda which is grainy and needs overseading. Many southern courses have converted to different types of Champion which does not need overseeding and is significantly less grainy. When we converted from Beremuda to Champion at Riverwood GC in Port Charlotte, FL we were able to keep greenspeeds easily at 9+ with considerable course traffic.
It comes down to what the Club owners and members want for putting surfaces. It seems faster greens are not a priority with GMS or the majority of resident members here. Since we have 12 Championship courses could we not have a few that promote faster speeds to appease the possibly 30% of residents that prefer that?

[DonH57]

What I love most about playing golf is it seems there is always a change in course conditions and other factors that make the game challenging and I'm trying to always learn more. If there's not a change in courses or weather my body is doing something different day to day.