Proposed roundabout at hwy 301 and CR 472!?!

[billethkid]

Given the issues here in TV with proper use of roundabouts, how do you think one will work at the intersection of 301 and 472?

http://www.**************.com/proposed-roundabout-moving-forward-on-u-s-301-in-wildwood/?utm_source=9%2F29%2F15&utm_campaign=9%2F28%2F15&utm_medium=email

A roundabout at that intersection will be more like one on the interstate than in TV!

I suspect some engineering firm presented a higher projected continuous flow rate of traffic VS a much needed traffic light.

A couple of things I forecast will happen:

>more folks like me will use 466 to use the traffic light to access 301 N or S.
>traffic on 472 will be reduced going toward the proposed traffic circle
>there will be some horrendous accidents in a traffic circle which will include 18 wheelers, buses, even more dump trucks, you name it.

Some of the kami kazee traffic circle drivers in TV will definitely wind up in a contest with very large vehicles.

If it were put to a vote I would vote against it due to the new level of danger that would be injected nearby.

[billethkid]

Apparently putting a link to the "OTHER" news source gets edited out.
My thread is still viable even with the arbitrary editing of my post.

[golfing eagles]

Apparently putting a link to the "OTHER" news source gets edited out.
My thread is still viable even with the arbitrary editing of my post.

I don't think the editing was arbitrary at all, it was specifically done the remove the reference to the "name not to be mentioned" site

A RB on 301----might as well just put in a demolition derby complete with grandstands (we all know those fans just go to see the crashes anyway). Would probably back up traffic 1/2 mile given the 18 wheelers. I suppose they could rely on the experience and driving skills of Villagers who are familiar with RBs:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Jima64]

A roundabout there is kind of hilarious. Can you imagine the thought process some genious traffic engineer used to make this sound viable.

[villagetinker]

Given the issues here in TV with proper use of roundabouts, how do you think one will work at the intersection of 301 and 472?

http://www.**************.com/proposed-roundabout-moving-forward-on-u-s-301-in-wildwood/?utm_source=9%2F29%2F15&utm_campaign=9%2F28%2F15&utm_medium=email

A roundabout at that intersection will be more like one on the interstate than in TV!

I suspect some engineering firm presented a higher projected continuous flow rate of traffic VS a much needed traffic light.

A couple of things I forecast will happen:

>more folks like me will use 466 to use the traffic light to access 301 N or S.
>traffic on 472 will be reduced going toward the proposed traffic circle
>there will be some horrendous accidents in a traffic circle which will include 18 wheelers, buses, even more dump trucks, you name it.

Some of the kami kazee traffic circle drivers in TV will definitely wind up in a contest with very large vehicles.

If it were put to a vote I would vote against it due to the new level of danger that would be injected nearby.

I agree with you comments, also consider these:

There is a 55 MPH speed limit in this area (most people do 60, dump trucks 65 to 70 I have clocked them). Can you imagine SLOWING the traffic to say 35 MPH before the traffic circle!!
This road has lots of visitors, do you think they will have any idea how to navigate a traffic circle???
Let's see there will be signs "YEILD TO TRAFFIC IN CIRCLE", right, and these will be obeyed like YEILD, STOP, etc.
If they actually decide to do this, there will be at least one less car on 301, and I will need to find a suitable detour.
We have enough problems with the low speed traffic circles in TV, especially during snowbird season, I cannot imagine how this will work on 301.

I have seen some other articles where it was stated that there were locations where these worked very well and others where they were a disaster. I have seen both, and I am certain that this location will be a disaster.

[bagboy]

Very good points mentioned above. I just have to ask "why not a traffic light?"

[golfing eagles]

I agree with you comments, also consider these:

There is a 55 MPH speed limit in this area (most people do 60, dump trucks 65 to 70 I have clocked them). Can you imagine SLOWING the traffic to say 35 MPH before the traffic circle!!
This road has lots of visitors, do you think they will have any idea how to navigate a traffic circle???
Let's see there will be signs "YEILD TO TRAFFIC IN CIRCLE", right, and these will be obeyed like YEILD, STOP, etc.
If they actually decide to do this, there will be at least one less car on 301, and I will need to find a suitable detour.
We have enough problems with the low speed traffic circles in TV, especially during snowbird season, I cannot imagine how this will work on 301.

I have seen some other articles where it was stated that there were locations where these worked very well and others where they were a disaster. I have seen both, and I am certain that this location will be a disaster.

I've only driven it once, but if you go from Boston to Cape Cod you encounter 1 or 2 on busy main highways. Maybe they're the reason I only drove it once!

[2BNTV]

Making a left turn onto 301 S is already dangerous. A traffic light is required to make this turn safer. A roundabout is not a viable solution. IMHO

Does several people have to be killed, before a traffic light is installed?

Hopefully, the people who are controlling this decision, come to their senses and do the right thing!

[tomwed]

Very good points mentioned above. I just have to ask "why not a traffic light?"
or a gate

[billethkid]

Considerations for traffic control always include some sort of throuh put per hour or per day and I would be willing to bet the assumptions show more traffic moved through a given area.

Which of course is what one would propose if they were a proponent of the traffic circle.

I for one will be one of the residents of TV writing to vote against introducing a hazard into our area.

The alternate to 301 is to go South on Morse Blvd or Buena Vista to one of the east west highways further south. The traffic light at 466 and 301 would be ruled out for me heading south and into the circle.

When safety is an issue it will not come to pass!

[Mleeja]

You can tell none of the posters are from central Indiana. The city of Carmel, Indiana is know for its roundabouts. They have roundabout for exits and entrances to major highways. It is actually two roundabouts connected together. The elevated roundabouts are located on the lesser of the "busy" streets with exit and entrance ramps off of the major artery. The system works quite well once one gets the hang of it. When we left Indianapolis to move to TV the cities of Indianapolis and Carmel were proposing building a roundabout for the highest traveled intersection in the entire state of Indiana.

I haven't seen the article in the other on-line news source. I tried looking for it before posting but did not see it. I agree if you have a roundabout like the current ones in TV, it could be a real mess. However, if one of the more advanced designs are used, you might just like the idea.

[outlaw]

Making a left turn onto 301 S is already dangerous. A traffic light is required to make this turn safer. A roundabout is not a viable solution. IMHO

Does several people have to be killed, before a traffic light is installed?

Hopefully, the people who are controlling this decision, come to their senses and do the right thing!

According to the "experts" on MMPs, yes.

[outlaw]

I prefer RABs to lights any day. This will keep traffic moving, and the vehicles entering will have to slow down. Just like in all RABs in major cities. No problem. Go to Europe. RABs are everywhere, 5 and 6 lanes. They work fine.

[Polar Bear]

I'm not sure if it's a good idea at this point, but roundabouts have been successfully used at much busier locations than this.

[billethkid]

My issue is not whether traffic circles work or not. We all have been to and through them. Even in Paris around the Arch de Triumph with a multiple lane circle it works.....once one figures it out.

It is more the fact, for me, that it is most likely not a good idea for the location intended.

Add into the equation high volumes of high speed traffic, high percentage of people new/visiting the area, even higher percentage of senior and senior plus drivers and a formula for disater is in the making.

I would like to see or hear the dialogue that concludes with the recommendation of a traffic circle in that location.

[Polar Bear]

My issue is not whether traffic circles work or not...It is more the fact, for me, that it is most likely not a good idea for the location intended.

Add into the equation high volumes of high speed traffic, high percentage of people new/visiting the area, even higher percentage of senior and senior plus drivers and a formula for disater is in the making.

I would like to see or hear the dialogue that concludes with the recommendation of a traffic circle in that location.
I agree 100%. That's the reason I couched my post regarding whether it's a good idea or not. Each location has to be evaluated on its own merit. Any given location may or may not be appropriate for a roundabout. Traffic volume is only one of many considerations.

[l2ridehd]

I think it's a good idea. A roundabout is nothing more then a traffic light replacement that moves traffic better then a traffic light. Slow the traffic down before it, and increase speed once past it. If it were possible, I would be in favor of replacing every traffic light with a roundabout.

[buzzy]

Circle would make it more dangerous to get into and out of the gas station.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I've only driven it once, but if you go from Boston to Cape Cod you encounter 1 or 2 on busy main highways. Maybe they're the reason I only drove it once!

I've driven it hundreds of times and never had a problem. The roundabouts work fine just as they do in all of TV.

For those of you who think traffic lights are safer, how are the traffic lights at the intersections of Morse and 466, and Buena Vista and 466 working out? I hear about more accidents in those locations than I do in roundabouts.

Maybe it's because I'm from Massachusetts where roundabouts are common, but I don't see what the fuss is all about.

[JP]

Roundabouts are proven safer than traffic signals. I like them.

[tomwed]

I've driven it hundreds of times and never had a problem. The roundabouts work fine just as they do in all of TV.

For those of you who think traffic lights are safer, how are the traffic lights at the intersections of Morse and 466, and Buena Vista and 466 working out? I hear about more accidents in those locations than I do in roundabouts.

Maybe it's because I'm from Massachusetts where roundabouts are common, but I don't see what the fuss is all about.
I'm from NJ and I'm not certain but I think the traffic light patterns are different down here. For example if I'm heading north on BV and plan to make a left on 466A I think the pattern up north is that there is a red light on the south bound lane that remains red until the north bound light changes to red.

Down here the south bound light turns green for a few seconds while the northbound light is green. I think.

So now I am on the lookout for cars heading south that may even speed up, trying to make the light. And if I'm heading south I slow down looking for cars that may speed up trying to cross in front of me. I never have any close calls.

I think that's not the same up north. I can't quite put my finger on it but there's something different with the order or timing of the lights.

[villagetinker]

There are several different traffic light timing programs in use in the area. I have seen:
Left turn arrow turn green when the straight thru green lights go on.

Left turn arrow turn green when the OPPOSING traffic left arrow turns green and thru lanes are red

Left turn arrow turns green AFTER the thru lanes turned green, near the end of the cycle

This does tend to be confusing, especially where the traffic signals are adaptive, and change depending on traffic flow.

NOW as for the proposed roundabout on 301, there have been several very interesting comments and observations. My view has softened somewhat, but I still think there will be a continuing problem with OUT OF THE AREA drivers encountering the roundabout and doing something stupid. Please think about what happens this time each year when the snowbirds return.
Also, while I do agree that the accidents at the traffic lights appear to be more numerous, I have had more close calls on roundabouts then at traffic lights.

My plan will be to avoid 301, until the dust settles, then try it during NON rush hour times and see how it and the other drivers work.

[Mleeja]

FDOT does not have information about this proposed roundabout listed on their website. Right now I say this is much ado about nothing. It is a loooong way from being a reality. There is lots of work scheduled for 301 that will make our traveling lives difficult, but no roundabouts.

[dbussone]

FDOT does not have information about this proposed roundabout listed on their website. Right now I say this is much ado about nothing. It is a loooong way from being a reality. There is lots of work scheduled for 301 that will make our traveling lives difficult, but no roundabouts.


Interesting update. Thank you.

[obxgal]

Channel 9 reported about this back in June. Here's the link if your interested. US-301 roundabout proposal has some residents worried | www.wftv.com (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/us-301-roundabout-proposal-has-some-residents-worr/nmdLZ/)

Florida Department of Transportation officials are doing a study to see if a roundabout at the intersection of US-301 and County Road 472 could cut down on the accidents on US-301 in Wildwood.

FDOT officials said the intersection does meet the criteria for adding a traffic light, but according to department requirements, they're now reviewing a roundabout alternative.

Officials said they're in the beginning stages of the roundabout analysis, but so far no decision has been made.

[ScottRAB]

I agree with you comments, also consider these:

There is a 55 MPH speed limit in this area (most people do 60, dump trucks 65 to 70 I have clocked them). Can you imagine SLOWING the traffic to say 35 MPH before the traffic circle!!


So, in your mind, requiring people to slow down to 25 mph (roundabout speed) is less safe than requiring them to stop at a stop light?

[ScottRAB]

My issue is not whether traffic circles work or not. We all have been to and through them. Even in Paris around the Arch de Triumph with a multiple lane circle it works.....once one figures it out.


Many people confuse other and older styles of circular intersections with modern roundabouts. East coast rotaries, large multi-lane traffic circles (Arc D�Triomphe, Dupont Circle), and small neighborhood traffic circles are not modern roundabouts. If you want to see the difference between a traffic circle, a rotary (UK roundabout) and a modern roundabout (UK continental roundabout), go to Center for Roundabouts Research and Training (http://tinyurl.com/kstate-RAB) to see pictures. And here�s another site that shows the difference between an older rotary and a modern roundabout: Difference between a Rotary and a Roundabout (http://tinyurl.com/bzf7qmg)

WA DOT: Roundabouts - What they are and what they aren't (1 of 5) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsCoI7lERGE)

[ScottRAB]

Add into the equation high volumes of high speed traffic, high percentage of people new/visiting the area, even higher percentage of senior and senior plus drivers and a formula for disater is in the making.

Single-lane modern roundabouts (90-120 feet in diameter) can handle intersections that serve about 20,000 vehicles per day with peak-hour flows between 2,000 and 2,500 vehicles per hour. Two- and three-lane modern roundabouts (150-220 feet in diameter) can serve about 50,000 vehicles per day and handle 2,500 to 5,500 vehicles per hour. Right-turn slip lanes can increase that number if needed (just like for signal intersections). Much depends on how balanced the entries are, but only in determining how many lanes are needed for each movement.

Here�s a quote:
�By 2025, a quarter of all drivers in the United States will be over the age of 65. Intersections are the single most dangerous traffic environment for drivers of any age with left-hand turns being the single most dangerous traffic maneuver that any of us can make. Forty percent of all crashes that involve drivers over the age of 65 occur at intersections. This is nearly twice the rate of experienced younger drivers. AARP would like to see more roundabouts constructed because of the many safety benefits that they present for drivers of all ages.� - Jana Lynott, AARP Public Policy Institute

[tomwed]

Forty percent of all crashes that involve drivers over the age of 65 occur at intersections.
Seems to me not stopping would be a lot more dangerous. That must be the other 60%.

[ScottRAB]

60% of crashes that involve drivers over the age of 65 do not occur at intersections.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

There are several different traffic light timing programs in use in the area. I have seen:
Left turn arrow turn green when the straight thru green lights go on.

Left turn arrow turn green when the OPPOSING traffic left arrow turns green and thru lanes are red

Left turn arrow turns green AFTER the thru lanes turned green, near the end of the cycle

This does tend to be confusing, especially where the traffic signals are adaptive, and change depending on traffic flow.

NOW as for the proposed roundabout on 301, there have been several very interesting comments and observations. My view has softened somewhat, but I still think there will be a continuing problem with OUT OF THE AREA drivers encountering the roundabout and doing something stupid. Please think about what happens this time each year when the snowbirds return.
Also, while I do agree that the accidents at the traffic lights appear to be more numerous, I have had more close calls on roundabouts then at traffic lights.

My plan will be to avoid 301, until the dust settles, then try it during NON rush hour times and see how it and the other drivers work.

If you have a left hand green arrow, then the traffic coming in the opposite direction has a red light. If you have a green light, the traffic coming in the opposite direction has a green light and you should only make a left hand turn only when it is safe to do so. It seems that a lot of people here have difficulty judging how far and how fast an oncoming car is traveling.

The green arrow always shuts off before the opposing red light turns green. You'll never see a left hand green arrow when the opposite traffic has a green light.

Like I said, I hear about accidents at the intersections of Morse and 466, Morse and 466A, Buena Vista and 466 and Buena Vista and 466A than any other place in The Villages. I seldom hear of accidents in the roundabouts.

[Challenger]

If you have a left hand green arrow, then the traffic coming in the opposite direction has a red light. If you have a green light, the traffic coming in the opposite direction has a green light and you should only make a left hand turn only when it is safe to do so. It seems that a lot of people here have difficulty judging how far and how fast an oncoming car is traveling.

The green arrow always shuts off before the opposing red light turns green. You'll never see a left hand green arrow when the opposite traffic has a green light.

Like I said, I hear about accidents at the intersections of Morse and 466, Morse and 466A, Buena Vista and 466 and Buena Vista and 466A than any other place in The Villages. I seldom hear of accidents in the roundabouts.

Accidents at 4 way stops and lights quite often result in bodily harm or even death. Accidents at RAB most often are fender benders.

[tomwed]

It seems that a lot of people here have difficulty judging how far and how fast an oncoming car is traveling.

See that's where I think the lights down here are different than in New Jersey. I was making a left off BV on 441A I went slow so there was no problem for me avoiding an accident but it never occurred to me that someone could be legally barreling down south trying to make the light because he had a green light.
I think up north the southbound light would have been red. I wouldn't swear on a stack of Bibles. It just seems like something with the lights is different down here.

[Polar Bear]

See that's where I think the lights down here are different than in New Jersey. I was making a left off BV on 441A I went slow so there was no problem for me avoiding an accident but it never occurred to me that someone could be legally barreling down south trying to make the light because he had a green light...

Did you have a green ball or a green arrow?

[chuck90199]

Here's a swell rotary (or roundabout) in East Longmeadow, Massachusetts. During rush-hour it makes driving an adventure.

[tomwed]

Did you have a green ball or a green arrow?
I was beyond the light when I stopped and looked. Which brings up another question. In Philly if you get stuck in the middle of an intersection because you timed it wrong, a camera takes your picture, they track you down and send you a ticket.
Here's the question:
If I time it wrong down here and get stuck in the middle, trying to make a left, could I get a ticket for careless driving or impeding traffic or some other thing?

[Polar Bear]

I was beyond the light when I stopped and looked. Which brings up another question. In Philly if you get stuck in the middle of an intersection because you timed it wrong, a camera takes your picture, they track you down and send you a ticket.
Here's the question:
If I time it wrong down here and get stuck in the middle, trying to make a left, could I get a ticket for careless driving or impeding traffic or some other thing?

You are supposed to continue on in to the intersection if you have a green ball, of course yielding to oncoming traffic. You stay back far enough to see the signal. When the signal turns red, you should immediately...again being cautious of oncoming traffic...proceed with your left turn.

If you do that, you're not only staying legal, you're doing it the way the intersection is designed to be driven.

[rubicon]

There is a heck of a lot of home building happening on CR 472. I like many use this CR 472 often. As it sits now you can get get onto 301 with a left turn with little delay. As building continues it is going to increase traffic. I prefer a round a-bout over a traffic light because a traffic light is going to really back up traffic....and let's not forget about the trains that pass over CR472

I digress but I wonder what affect this is going to have on the new service station at this corner. My wife avoids it now because she claims its too hard to get in and out??

Some folks just do not like big city driving. so they are a little intimidated with on/off ramps, metered ramps, round a-bouts or rotaries as they call then in Boston.

It is quite obvious DOT sends out a notice on proposed plans ( sending up ballons) to get the public feedback. Perhaps DOT monitors TOTV also?

[villagetinker]

I have no problem leaving the service station and going South on 301. I simply head NORTH to the first turn around, and head South, simple, safe, and it avoids all of the problems of trying to make a left at 472.

PS I have beaten many cars that were behind me a 472 doing this, as they had to wait for traffic to clear in both direction, I only need to wait for the direction I am going.

This is JMHO, please do not shoot the messenger.

[ScottRAB]

Here's a swell rotary (or roundabout) in East Longmeadow, Massachusetts. During rush-hour it makes driving an adventure.

It might be a circle or a rotary, but it is not a modern roundabout.
Many people confuse other and older styles of circular intersections with modern roundabouts. East coast rotaries, large multi-lane traffic circles (Arc D�Triomphe, Dupont Circle), and small neighborhood traffic circles are not modern roundabouts. If you want to see the difference between a traffic circle, a rotary (UK roundabout) and a modern roundabout (UK continental roundabout), go to Center for Roundabouts Research and Training (http://tinyurl.com/kstate-RAB) to see pictures. And here�s another site that shows the difference between an older rotary and a modern roundabout: Difference between a Rotary and a Roundabout (http://tinyurl.com/bzf7qmg)