Just my concern....as a Mom!

[Guest]

I know that some of you may think this is just one more attack on McCain and Palin...but I just learned something that truly worries me!
I know that families all have issues...that we all have things that should be kept private...however she is running for VP of the USA and I am concerned of the way it may appear to our children!

I just read that on of Sara Palin's daughters is pregnant. She is 17 years old and still in High School. The media and moms everywhere went nuts when we found out about certain tv stars that were pregnant at such a young age! They have handled it very well as a family and are not hiding anything....however I just don't think that in this day and age that our VP's 17 year old daughter should be "ok" about having a baby.

I am not even discussing the family values campaigns....about the "unmarried" pregnancy....not my point and I don't care personally....BUT she is only 17!!

This is something that we are trying to curb in HS across America! Safe sex, birth control, abstinence....

I am not judging Sara P...nor am I judging her daughter....this is a family issue for them to deal with in whatever way they see fit...

HOWEVER....I do not think that the children that are learning to follow this campaign and pay attention to both sides should have to hear that the possible VP's 17 year old daughter is pregnant, in HS and will be getting married!!

Again this is NOT a personal attack on the campaign...this is a concern from a mom....

I do not want my soon to be teenage daughter to think it is ok for a teenager to be get pregnant!!! I know I can teach her that...but our politicians should be examples. We have a hard enough time sheltering our children/grandchildren from the inappropriate things our politicians do themselves....

[Guest]

Your point is VERY WELL TAKEN...if you can get the media to stick to the subject it would be the greatest thing since slice bread :) I am always taken back by the media's concentration on stuff like this and then they turn around and critique the candidates for not sticking to the issues, when they get them on the defensive on such stupid stuff.

YOU are right....I dont think this has a party bias to it.....it sure has a media bias to it and I agree with you !

[Guest]

Bucco...YEAH!! We did it...we agree!!

I too think the media will handle this horribly and I am sorry for the family!

However...I am more concerned about our children...grand children...thinking that it is ok for them to get pregnant so early...married or not....they are in HS!! Scares me!! I have seen success come from early pregnancies and while some moms (sometimes dads) can get through it well....and live a good life and raise good children....BUT this should not be the norm...or seen as ok!

[Guest]

I agree that this should NOT be a media focus. Nobody 'wants' their teenage daughter or son to become parents at that time in their life. However, things happen. We can teach our children everything we believe. When the kids walk out of the house they do what they want to do and at that age usually think ' it won't happen to me'. All we can do is pray that they are strong enough to stay away from all forms of temtation.

Early pregancies can happen to anybody. How many TV ers had an early pregancy in their family? Let's not condem...we all live in glass houses.

[Guest]

Early pregancies can happen to anybody. How many TV ers had an early pregancy in their family? Let's not condem...we all live in glass houses.


As I stated...I am not condemning anyone!!! I am not asking to find out if any other people have had early pregnancies...I believe you have missed my point!!

I am concerned that our children and grand children and 17 year olds across America will see her pregnant or read about it and think that if it is OK for her to be pregnant and have family support...then well it must be ok for them too!!

[Guest]

My point exactly. Parents can teach children their beliefs...but when they walk out of the house, they are their own person.

Some 17 yr. old may think that a certain life style is OK because of what they hear, read and see people in the news doing. But, I personally don't think it is the majority of teenagers.

I don't believe that this pregnancy that the media has decided to put 'in everyones face' is not as important, nor will it 'give' the teenagers an OK to do certain things. What the rock/music/Television stars sing, wear and act on a daily occurrence are much more influential

[Guest]

Hopefully, there won't be too much of a spin on this subject. Obama has told the media and his crew to leave the families out of the mix and this was said in direct reference to Palin's daughter. It would be so nice if everyone would just focus on the issues and not their personal lives.

I do agree it's not the best message for our kids to hear but they'll hear far worse ones from their idols. The best we can do is use items like this as a way to discuss the issues that are important to us. Even the worst news can have a teaching tool in it.

[Guest]

Red -- right you are
Obama had the right idea on one subject --- the issues facing our country are not about Pailins daughter. That is so far down the list of issues it rates just below pumping up my tires.

Bernie

[Guest]

I really hope pumping up your tires is WAY higher on your list. That's important for safety, tire life, gas.

[Guest]

Perhaps because of the values I am trying to teach my daughter...this has hit a sore spot for me....but it is my opinion....and I shared it...again thanks for sharing yours.

[Guest]

Before we take Mrs Palin out in the town square and stone her, we should check the facts .
The Smear
Mayor Sarah Palin Banned Books and Fired the Librarian
A librarian accused former Mayor Palin of banning a list of books in 1996 in a blog post at Librarian.net [2].

Others, including the New York Times [8], claimed that Mayor Palin fired librarian, Mary Ellen Baker (aka Mary Ellen Emmons), president of the Alaska Library Association at the time.

Time Magazine furthered the smear in their article, "Mayor Palin: A Rough Record" [6]. Also, Obama's own website is furthering this fraudulent list [7].


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Truth
Sarah Palin Never Fired The Librarian and The Banned Books List is Bogus [1]
The website where the original smear started, Librarian.Net [3], says the banned books list is bogus [2] and came from an old University list of banned books [5].
there appears to be no truth to the claim made by the commenter, and no further documentation or support for this has turned up.
The "banned books list" includes books that were published after 1996 (like Harry Potter).

The librarian, Mary Ellen Baker, was not fired but instead resigned [4] in 1999.

We ask Mr. Obama to denounce these smears and to remove them from his website immediately.

Sources:
[1] Main investigative work by Michelle Malkin
[2] Librarian.Net
[3] Librarian.Net Poster Jessamyn West
[4] Pacific Northwest Library Association Resignation announcement August 31, 1999
[5] Florida International
[6] Mayor Palin: A Rough Record Time Magazine article.
[7] Obama's website furthering the smear
[8] New York Times, Palin's Start in Alaska: Not Politics as Usual says "Ms. Plain fired Ms. Emmons shortly after taking office"
[9] Alaska Daily News article

[Guest]

Red -- I meant to say my bicycle tires.
Cassie -- understand your positioin. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Bernie

[Guest]

drr47, we know she never fired her. But she did threaten to fire her. When there was public outcry from a well-liked librarian, Sarah Palin backed off and said it was a "test of loyalty". What????

The more I learn about this woman, the more cancerous she becomes to me. Just my opinion.

[Guest]

Before we take Mrs Palin out in the town square and stone her, we should check the facts .
The Smear
Mayor Sarah Palin Banned Books and Fired the Librarian
A librarian accused former Mayor Palin of banning a list of books in 1996 in a blog post at Librarian.net [2].

Others, including the New York Times [8], claimed that Mayor Palin fired librarian, Mary Ellen Baker (aka Mary Ellen Emmons), president of the Alaska Library Association at the time.

Time Magazine furthered the smear in their article, "Mayor Palin: A Rough Record" [6]. Also, Obama's own website is furthering this fraudulent list [7].


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Truth
Sarah Palin Never Fired The Librarian and The Banned Books List is Bogus [1]
The website where the original smear started, Librarian.Net [3], says the banned books list is bogus [2] and came from an old University list of banned books [5].
there appears to be no truth to the claim made by the commenter, and no further documentation or support for this has turned up.
The "banned books list" includes books that were published after 1996 (like Harry Potter).

The librarian, Mary Ellen Baker, was not fired but instead resigned [4] in 1999.

We ask Mr. Obama to denounce these smears and to remove them from his website immediately.

Sources:
[1] Main investigative work by Michelle Malkin
[2] Librarian.Net
[3] Librarian.Net Poster Jessamyn West
[4] Pacific Northwest Library Association Resignation announcement August 31, 1999
[5] Florida International
[6] Mayor Palin: A Rough Record Time Magazine article.
[7] Obama's website furthering the smear
[8] New York Times, Palin's Start in Alaska: Not Politics as Usual says "Ms. Plain fired Ms. Emmons shortly after taking office"
[9] Alaska Daily News article




(1) The link originally given here did not say Palin had a list of books nor did it say the librarian was fired. It did have direct quotes of people who heard Palin asking about the possibility of banning the books.
(2) I looked at the official Obama website and could find no mention of the book banning (doesn't mean it's not there, just means I couldn't find it). Could you please provide a direct link to where Obama is smearing Palin?

Where did you get your sources from? It really does help to provide links when claiming that things were said by other sources rather than just "Time Magazine," etc. Most of what you said sounds more like it was copied from a blog than something you actually wrote. I don't mind that you copied, but it is always nice to see the source.

[Guest]

I do agree it's not the best message for our kids to hear but they'll hear far worse ones from their idols. The best we can do is use items like this as a way to discuss the issues that are important to us. Even the worst news can have a teaching tool in it.


I can explain to my daughter a lot easier (unfortunately) that a movie star or rock star just gets carried away with all the money. Not that any of it is right! They were wrong and their life will be very hard now. Disney took one girl off the air ASAP when she got pregnant at 16!

That they think they are grown ups faster then they should be....

BUT it will be a lot harder to explain that a Governor's (possible VP), 17 year old daughter is pregnant....and that her parents support her and that she can go off into the sunset to get married.....isn't this wonderful!! :dontknow:

It really bothers me!! AS A MOM!!! :'( >:(

[Guest]

Red -- I meant to say my bicycle tires.
Cassie -- understand your positioin. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Bernie

THANKS BERNIE!!!

PS.....bike tires need air too....unless it is sitting in the garage doing nothing.

[Guest]

I suppose it would be rude of me to ask if all the libs on totv who have been smearing Sarah Palin and blowveating for days on" allegations " ,when proven wrong, to appologize. Or would that be journalistically unfair.

And for all you dems who are bent out of shape because one of Palins daughters is pregnant and might send the wrong signal to our kids, If your lefty pals had not put her kid up to journalistic scrutiny in the press , it would never have been an issue. Benj

[Guest]

Before we take Mrs Palin out in the town square and stone her, we should check the facts .


Ok.....not sure when the smearing began...in fact I started this post stating that I was not trying to slam anyone....I was concerned about the teenagers of the world!

[Guest]

Having raised 5 children....3 girls & 2 boys.....with 11 grandchildren....and 2 great grandchildren.....it is imperative to establish early on the real core values, virtues and some religion what is wrong or right in their upbringing. However, once they become teen agers...and heavily dependent upon the company they keep (their friends)...they form their own views, opinions and desires. No matter how hard we try to influence their thinking, their needs (right wrong or indifferent) form their standards.
The influences they are exposed to daily...school...television...the movies...some friends...THE INTERNET...have been influencing them long before they ever heard of Sarah Palin.
All one can do as a parent is the best possible in the loose morals society/environment we they live in today.
I know....our first great grand child was concieved and born out of wed lock. Our grand daughter (the mother) a perfect model of what every parent would like a daughter to be.
They (mother and father) both finished high school. They are now married...both going to college.
As much as I/we were upset and shocked.....it happens in the best of families.
Until such time as core values are returned to that which they are exposed to and bombareded with every day...it will continue to happen...including in the best of families.

Palin's daughter is yesterday's news to most people already. The other influences mentioned are on ongoing and continuous. Want a good (or bad example)? Some schools offering condoms to assure safe sex.

I say good luck to those raising kids today. The prognosis...it can only become more common place...unfortunately!!!!

BTK

[Guest]

At one time I taught sex education to 5th graders. Boys in one class, girls in another. I thought, the parents thought, the district thought that was a good age. We didn't discuss birth control. My husband taught high school and taught sex ed. The curriculum covered birth control methods as well as abstinence.
When my son was about that age he and I looked at a few good movies about "bodies" and read, together, some books. Later, when he fell in love in high school I didn't treat it as "puppy love." We sat together and talked about everything: IF he should decide that he loved this young lady enough to make the commitment to her and become intimate how SHE would feel. (She'd start writing Mrs. XXX XXX on her notebooks, she'd be thinking about wedding gowns, she'd be picking names for her future children, etc.) I told him girls react differently to intimacy - at least I did. I told him that IF he and she decided to be intimate he needed to use protection because... one sentence we would never, never hear in our house was... Ma, XXX is pregnant. I told him I would buy condoms if he made that choice so he wouldn't have to face a pharmacist. We talked about how teen pregnancy forever changes your options. How teen moms are more likely to not finish their educational plans and are likely to have a second baby within two years of the first. We talked about teen parents and poverty. We talked about respect for him. Respect for her. We talked about "urges" and "needs". I told him I would like for them to wait but I couldn't follow them around and in the end I couldn't make their decision. It was a look-me-straight-in-the-eye conversation. It was a conversation which we repeated frequently. There was no yelling, no embarrassment, no scolding, nothing "out of bounds."
Schools can only do so much. I don't think an "abstinence only" curriculum is best for teenagers. We delay adulthood for a long time in this country. I think we need to take a deep breath and have a real conversation with each of our children - starting early and repeating it often. I think we need to understand the difference between what we wish would happen and what is likely to happen. As adults we know that teen love isn't the same as mature love, but they don't.

[Guest]

Having raised 5 children....3 girls & 2 boys.....with 11 grandchildren....and 2 great grandchildren.....it is imperative to establish early on the real core values, virtues and some religion what is wrong or right in their upbringing. However, once they become teen agers...and heavily dependent upon the company they keep (their friends)...they form their own views, opinions and desires. No matter how hard we try to influence their thinking, their needs (right wrong or indifferent) form their standards.
The influences they are exposed to daily...school...television...the movies...some friends...THE INTERNET...have been influencing them long before they ever heard of Sarah Palin.
All one can do as a parent is the best possible in the loose morals society/environment we they live in today.
I know....our first great grand child was conceived and born out of wed lock. Our grand daughter (the mother) a perfect model of what every parent would like a daughter to be.
They (mother and father) both finished high school. They are now married...both going to college.
As much as I/we were upset and shocked.....it happens in the best of families.
Until such time as core values are returned to that which they are exposed to and bombarded with every day...it will continue to happen...including in the best of families.

Palin's daughter is yesterday's news to most people already. The other influences mentioned are on ongoing and continuous. Want a good (or bad example)? Some schools offering condoms to assure safe sex.

I say good luck to those raising kids today. The prognosis...it can only become more common place...unfortunately!!!!

BTK




Again...I state to you....I don't care that she is not married....I care that she is 17 years old!!! The marriage thing means NOTHING to me as I am not even allowed to be married to the one I love...however I can be upset about the fact that she is 17 years old and is shown in the spot light of the RNC as a wonderful pregnant grown up with her fiance at her side.....

:barf: SHE IS 17~! WHAT DOES EVERYONE NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING!

I KNOW IT HAPPENS....I KNOW KIDS HAVE SEX....I KNOW KIDS GET PREGNANT.....

I still feel that this is VERY scary for the teens of the world....a message needs to be sent that it is HARD to be a mom at 17.....and not every parent is going to support their teen in pregnancy like the Palin family....Bless them for being able to.....

I am not sure what more I have to say.....I guess it doesn't matter!

[Guest]

CMJ...thank you for sharing this...I agree that communication is important! My daughter (at 11 ) knows more than I ever knew at her age...and she knows the truth and knows it from ME!

Thank you for sharing your insights as a parent and teacher!!

[Guest]

Cassie, any time I hear of someone under 25 having a child it bothers me. Few are mature enough before age 25 in today's society to be a parent. Even so, it happens. We can't stop our kids from having sex if they're bound and determined. I much prefer that Palin is supporting her daughter in this than leaving her on the roadside to figure out what to do on her own. I'm not going to condemn her for her daughter's pregnancy and I will applaud her willingness to stand by her daughter. That doesn't mean she approves (I doubt any sane parent would be thrilled).

Yes, it is hard to explain this to our daughters but it really isn't something Palin has a lot of control over. Her daughter is pregnant. She's lucky enough to have a boy who wants to step up and be a father and a husband. These are not easy choices for kids nor for their parents. This is a private family matter that should stay within the family. It is something that happens to many families -- some of the best and some of the worst. As I said, to me this should not be an issue of this campaign. Parents are going to have to decide how much to discuss with their children about this issue.

What you can do is discuss how hard it will be for Palin's daughter. She's not going to have a lot of privacy through this pregnancy, the birth nor the marriage. No matter how powerful her mother is, she's going to have to live with her boy friend/husband and lose out on college, sororieties, dances, football games -- all the joys of emerging adulthood. Instead, she's going to be changing diapers, listening to a baby cry at all hours of the day and night, sacrifice for the baby. Being a teen parent is hard regardless of who your parents are.

[Guest]

I agree with you 100% Red. I hope this opens discussions between parents and their children.


Shirleevee

[Guest]

Do you really think this boy wants to marry now? This is a high profile shotgun wedding if I've ever seen one!

[Guest]

chels

As keeper of all liberal knowledge, I just wondered what makes you think 'This boy" doesnt want to marry now. I think it's kinda uppity for you to jump to that conclusion not knowing the truth. Or the truth as libs see it. Benj

[Guest]

Oh for God's sake Benj, his blog has been reprinted everywhere! Do some research on Levi Jonhston! And don't call me uppity just because I have an opinion that doesn't parrot yours.

[Guest]

Chells
Here is the truth. Neither you or cassie have a clue wether That Boy wants to marry or not, Blogs or not you dont know. Having inserted yourself in the Palin family business doesn't give you any insight what so ever as to what they want or decide to do. Bringing personal private Palin business up as an election issue Is unfair and anything you might guess they might be thinking about is just your postulating with no knowledge what so ever, Just an opinion. Really a guess.
In your opinion that That Boy stepping up and taking responsibility is to you some sinister plan by Palin. And not a showing of moral fortitude from That Boy. I'll bet if she had an abortion you would have applauded that as an open minded decision. And if That Boy had run off to some far away place, you would of said he made a good decision. Benj

[Guest]

Gee, as an Obama supporter it must be difficult to know Levi and the Palins so well that you KNOW Levi doesn't want to marry now and this is a shot gun wedding.

Give this family some privacy. This situation should not be part of the election. Anyone who thinks that other teenagers are going to look at Palins daughters pregancy as an OK for them to get pregant, you certainly are giving the Palin family lots of 'power' What we need to zero in on is the music, idols, young stars dressing as young adults and other stuff teenagers are drawn too.

[Guest]

I cannot understand why anyone would want to "Do some research on Levi Jonhston!", the boyfriend of the VP candidates daughter.

Time better served researched Sen Obama's background and his ties to the radical left. or Sen McCains background or the candidates stand on health care !

[Guest]

Bucco, it all counts. It all matters. The Republicans are trying to fill a position that is a heartbeat away from the Presidency. EVERYTHING is an issue on both sides.

[Guest]

You know...I will state once again that this is MY opinion.....that is what this forum is for....and I am glad it is here. It is good to look at other postings to hear what other people think....however in regards to my concerns....I will stand by them and I have a right to do so.

I feel horrible for Palin's family...the media...the 17 year old pregnant as she is running for VP....but that does not mean that I am worried about the stigma this will leave for young teens.

Keep in mind I am not really talking about the teenagers that have families that will support like Palin. I am sure she will have help from the nanny etc....

I do have a concern as a mom....as a voter....I don't think it is right! I am all for womens rights to have good jobs and equal pay...however if a mom is never home for her teenage daughters....and they have 4 other kids and are the Governor.....well.....what do we think will happen if she becomes VP!!

I don't think she should kick her daughter out into the street, I don't think she should make her have an abortion, I don't think she should make them get married....

As for the teenage boy who is the father....he should have responsibilities to the child.....but honestly how many 17 year old boys do you know now a days that would get married....just because she is pregnant....and stay with the marriage....

[Guest]

If that's true, Chels, then we really need to examine Joe Biden's son getting a great job with the same institution that gave Joe a hefty campaign contribution and for which Joe nicely responded by passing very strict bankruptcy laws in favor of that institution. As I sort through the candidates, that makes me extremely unsettled. He passed it off as, the institution is a big employer and it wasn't a very big donation. Not the explanation I wanted to hear for his, IMHO, tarnished legislation.

And, Cassie, I think for that argument... we need to examine every working mother, every family, every working woman for that matter to determine if she should be employed. There are female physicians, engineers, line cooks, actresses, heavy equipement operators all with families or responsibilities and we haven't told all of them how they should manage their lives. It is obvious that women must be totally scrutinized and judged by our very skewed opinions as to whether they should hold the job they seek. (Men, you get a free pass here...) It is very elitist to suggest that some woman should stay home with their children and others better get to work if the income is needed. Let's get to the meat of the election and not examine Palin's private life lest your private life or my private life be examined too!

[Guest]

Peachie, new neighbor! ;D I will agree to disagree.

MNBA is one the the 2 biggest companies in Delaware. Joe Biden's son Hunter turned down jobs on Wall Street for much more money, to be in his home state. And Biden's contributions from any lobbyists are less than 2%. As opposed to McCain's campaign being surrounded by lobbyists. See link:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4210251

Senator Obama's funding came from the American people, so he has no one to answer to but the citizens.

As far as working women go, I have been one all of my life. And it really depends on the position or job they are accepting. I don't think any statement on working women should be a blanket statement or as black and white as you have put it. Just as I don't believe that "just being a woman" will win Hillary voters.

I was alone raising my daughter, then taking care of my father. When my dad became ill, I had to leave advertising, which I dearly loved, to take care of him. The traveling and time put in was too much. And hiring someone to do it just isn't the same. I have lived both sides of this issue. However, I just want to repeat. My issues are not with Sarah Palin being a working Mom, my issues are with Sarah Palin's non-issues.

[Guest]

And, Cassie, I think for that argument... we need to examine every working mother, every family, every working woman for that matter to determine if she should be employed. There are female physicians, engineers, line cooks, actresses, heavy equipement operators all with families or responsibilities and we haven't told all of them how they should manage their lives. It is obvious that women must be totally scrutinized and judged by our very skewed opinions as to whether they should hold the job they seek. (Men, you get a free pass here...) It is very elitist to suggest that some woman should stay home with their children and others better get to work if the income is needed. Let's get to the meat of the election and not examine Palin's private life lest your private life or my private life be examined too!


MY private life is a wide open book...in fact I have been more than honest here on this forum...then most really to know but that is me....so I am really not worried about it...
However....I am not talking about ALL women....I am talking about one that has 5 children...one of which is now pregnant and is running for VP! BIG difference. If the husband was the one supposedly taking care of the children...shame on him to for not knowing what was going on.....

My parents had 8 kids.....Dad worked and Mom worked and went back to school for her Masters....but you better believe they knew what was going on with their kids....and we paid the price if it was not right!!

I guess my real concern is not her as a Mom...that is her problem to deal with....BUT

I honestly think she is not the right person for the job....if you can not manage your own

household and family....and work at the same time.....how are going to run the country if you have to give one or the other up?

[Guest]

"If you can't run your own household and family... how are you going to run the country?" I guess it's a good thing Hillary didn't get the nomination. She supposedly did'nt have a clue as to what Bill was doing in the oval office, etc.

[Guest]

Cassie, this isn't about your life being an open book, this is about everyone else dictating what happens in your life because of the open book. Do you believe everyone would approve of how you live your life? I'm sure there is something someone would not like about mine and insist I do otherwise.

I know a very wonderful couple that were blessed with a beautiful daughter with Down Syndrome recently. They already had a little girl and a little boy. They wept and then rejoiced at how truly wonderful this little girl is in their lives. But Mommy went back to work immediately when recovered and worked double shifts to help cover the gaps in their income when Daddy was laid off from his job after baby came into their lives. They have no staff, are unable to schedule her hours to work for her to be home when they would like, she cannot take baby with her to work but their family is so viable and so wonderful. These arguments tell her she is an awful mother to go to work to cover the bills. Or is that option only for the elite? Did anyone see the live telephone call where Barrack's little daughter asked him what city he was in today and just wanted to talk with him? He has a wonderful family but running for president or the presidency will exact a price from him too, is he less important to his family? We need to drop Palin's family life and look at the issues and the candidates, to continue this moral judging is to invite judgement of every woman and tell her how her life should be lived.

[Guest]

Sally Jo, we need a bigger argument than where Clinton was putting his _____ Fill in the blank. ;D

[Guest]

That's such an old subject to me, Sally Jo. I think the only difference between Bill Clinton and many men is the fact that he got caught. I don't endorse what he did, he was a hound but I am tired of the rerun of the ugly moment in history.

[Guest]

If that's true, Chels, then we really need to examine Joe Biden's son getting a great job with the same institution that gave Joe a hefty campaign contribution and for which Joe nicely responded by passing very strict bankruptcy laws in favor of that institution. As I sort through the candidates, that makes me extremely unsettled. He passed it off as, the institution is a big employer and it wasn't a very big donation. Not the explanation I wanted to hear for his, IMHO, tarnished legislation.

And, Cassie, I think for that argument... we need to examine every working mother, every family, every working woman for that matter to determine if she should be employed. There are female physicians, engineers, line cooks, actresses, heavy equipement operators all with families or responsibilities and we haven't told all of them how they should manage their lives. It is obvious that women must be totally scrutinized and judged by our very skewed opinions as to whether they should hold the job they seek. (Men, you get a free pass here...) It is very elitist to suggest that some woman should stay home with their children and others better get to work if the income is needed. Let's get to the meat of the election and not examine Palin's private life lest your private life or my private life be examined too!


Peachie, very well said. I sincerely doubt that the pregnancy of Palin's 17 year old daughter is going to lead to the deterioration of the moral fibre of the nation's teenagers.

[Guest]

My parents had 8 kids.....Dad worked and Mom worked and went back to school for her Masters....but you better believe they knew what was going on with their kids....and we paid the price if it was not right!!

Cassie, as someone born in the early 1940's when things were very different, let me assure you that lots of stuff went on that neither of my parents knew about. Most youngpeople have no fear of consequences. I had a very open relationship with my children and am now hearing things they did that make my hair curl. No parent can be everywhere or think that everything is being told to them.

[Guest]

Oops forgot the quotes.

Shirleevee

[Guest]

MY private life is a wide open book...in fact I have been more than honest here on this forum...then most really to know but that is me....so I am really not worried about it...
However....I am not talking about ALL women....I am talking about one that has 5 children...one of which is now pregnant and is running for VP! BIG difference. If the husband was the one supposedly taking care of the children...shame on him to for not knowing what was going on.....

My parents had 8 kids.....Dad worked and Mom worked and went back to school for her Masters....but you better believe they knew what was going on with their kids....and we paid the price if it was not right!!

I guess my real concern is not her as a Mom...that is her problem to deal with....BUT

I honestly think she is not the right person for the job....if you can not manage your own

household and family....and work at the same time.....how are going to run the country if you have to give one or the other up?


AS A FATHER OF DAUGHTERS, what I have learned is the following:

1. The kids don't care about the kids of the President, Vice-President, Governor, Mayor, dog-catcher or neighborhood cop. The only ones that matter are the "A-List" kids at the junior high school and high school (and sometimes, the more exclusive sororities at college). Kids aren't into newspapers, Hannity & Colmes or Meet the Press.

2. The public school sex education programs provide so much "birth preventive systems" information that kids think they really can have their fun at no cost or risk, and all kids think they are bulletproof to start with. Oh yeah, if the preventive systems fail, there's always abortion. THAT is the message they really learn at school.

3. The kids these days start pairing up like they are heading for a cruise on the Ark at age 10, and it gets worse as they get older (e.g., 12) if they haven't got a steady boy/girlfriend because of peer pressure. All of this is local, and has nothing to do with the occupants (current of future) of 1600 PA Ave and the Residence at the Naval Observatory in DC.

So, don't worry about the Palin family and their trials as being the topical scapegoat if a daughter gets pregnant. Just look at what's going on at the schools and hang-outs within a twenty-mile radius of wherever you live. That's where kids get their information and role models.

[Guest]

Steve,

Thank you for your thoughts...much appreciated!


However....apparently my daughter and her friends are a little different then everyone else their age....they are the ones who told me about Palin's daughter...they heard it at school and then I looked it up!!

[Guest]

Sorry, Chels, I missed your earlier post:

"MNBA is one the the 2 biggest companies in Delaware. Joe Biden's son Hunter turned down jobs on Wall Street for much more money, to be in his home state. And Biden's contributions from any lobbyists are less than 2%."

I know you and I watched this same program and so I'm sure you heard Joe Biden, when pressured by the moderator as to how he could back such strict bankruptcy guidelines for people going under do to huge medical expenses, lamely came back with, "that's why we need a health care program in this country". What in the world does that mean to the families staggered by a major illness or accident currently? Tough luck? But the Democrats are in the majority in the Congress and Senate and I saw no health insurance programs enacted during their tenure. INMO, I feel it was a conflict of interest for Biden to vote on the bankruptcy law, he had dogs in that fight. And where is all that change when they could be producing it right now without Barrack Obama? Those are some of the issues that concern me.

[Guest]

AS A FATHER OF DAUGHTERS, what I have learned is the following:

2. The public school sex education programs provide so much "birth preventive systems" information that kids think they really can have their fun at no cost or risk, and all kids think they are bulletproof to start with. Oh yeah, if the preventive systems fail, there's always abortion. THAT is the message they really learn at school.

So, don't worry about the Palin family and their trials as being the topical scapegoat if a daughter gets pregnant. Just look at what's going on at the schools and hang-outs within a twenty-mile radius of wherever you live. That's where kids get their information and role models.


This broad brushstroke is so unfair. What public school district are you specifically talking about? I've seen a lot of curriculums and haven't found your assessment to be true at all. Having taught for 33 years, and my husband teaching health for 33 years, this was not our experience. In the district where we taught (a public school system) parents came for meetings to view, discuss, and sign a permission slip for their child to be in class or to opt out and not have any part of the program. The curriculum was written by parents, teachers working together.
The messages children learn in school are far less important than the messages they receive from their #1 supporter - YOU, the parent. The situation with Palin's daughter is a "teachable moment." Any parent who doesn't want a teen pregnancy for their child should take this as an opportunity to get a conversation going or to continue one.
As for teens who do get pregnant, please don't dump that burden on the schools. The last time I looked this up, research said the average father spends less than 10 minutes per day in meaningful conversation with their children. This doesn't include: clean your room, listen to your mother, do what I say. Hang-outs? If your child is hanging out where you don't think they're safe and the environment is healthy, how is that the school's fault?

[Guest]

Sorry, Chels, I missed your earlier post:

"MNBA is one the the 2 biggest companies in Delaware. Joe Biden's son Hunter turned down jobs on Wall Street for much more money, to be in his home state. And Biden's contributions from any lobbyists are less than 2%."

I know you and I watched this same program and so I'm sure you heard Joe Biden when pressured by the moderator as to how he could back such strict bankruptcy guidelines for people going under do to huge medical expenses and he lamely came back with, "that's why we need a health care program in this country". What in the world does that mean to the families staggered by a major illness or accident currently? Tough luck? But the Democrats are in the majority in the Congress and Senate and I saw no health insurance programs enacted during their tenure. INMO, I feel it was a conflict of interest for Biden to vote on the bankruptcy law, he had dogs in that fight. And where is all that change when they could be producing it right now without Barrack Obama? Those are some of the issues that concern me.


I'm sure all of this will be brought up in the debates, which is why I'm so looking forward to them. I just know McCain cast a series of Senate votes in 2005 siding with the banking industry and lobbyists, while opposing measures from congress and senate that would have helped families struggling to pay medical bills, seniors in bankruptcy fighting to keep their homes, and victims of Hurricane Katrina.

Senator Obama said he also would help service members and military families struggling financially after multiple moves, lengthy deployments and, in some cases, predatory lenders, saying, "If you're protecting America, America should be protecting you from unfair bankruptcy laws."

[Guest]

This broad brushstroke is so unfair. What public school district are you specifically talking about? I've seen a lot of curriculums and haven't found your assessment to be true at all. Having taught for 33 years, and my husband teaching health for 33 years, this was not our experience. In the district where we taught (a public school system) parents came for meetings to view, discuss, and sign a permission slip for their child to be in class or to opt out and not have any part of the program. The curriculum was written by parents, teachers working together.
The messages children learn in school are far less important than the messages they receive from their #1 supporter - YOU, the parent. The situation with Palin's daughter is a "teachable moment." Any parent who doesn't want a teen pregnancy for their child should take this as an opportunity to get a conversation going or to continue one.
As for teens who do get pregnant, please don't dump that burden on the schools. The last time I looked this up, research said the average father spends less than 10 minutes per day in meaningful conversation with their children. This doesn't include: clean your room, listen to your mother, do what I say. Hang-outs? If your child is hanging out where you don't think they're safe and the environment is healthy, how is that the school's fault?

Where I have lived in Eastern Massachusetts especially this was the prevalence. Central FL counties are not much better.

It always goes back to - why is the public school system trying to teach sex education and a host of other items that fall to parents? Where is the demonstrated need, and what objective criteria is being used tot evaluate the effectiveness of any instruction on these topics?

The public school system in the US has become a greater tragedy in the US than all of the wars, the economy and the health care system. Since 1960 the SAT scores keep going down and the curriculum keeps broadening, and the kids now leave school: 1) not really knowing enough basic math to balance a checkbook properly; 2) with grammar so poor that the text-message shorthand is considered acceptable writing skills; and 3) reading at no higher than the 9th grade level. The drop-out rate still is abominable and a high school diploma today is not regarded as being worth much of anything due to the high number of graduates who leave the hallowed halls still ignorant in the "3 'Rs."

There was a time when the public school system delivered an education, and that was prior to the '60s. Teachers then were role models of the highest order. They came to work dressed as professionals, conducted themselves accordingly, demanded classroom courtesy and there was mutual respect. They really were the first "business" role models outside the home for kids, especially as to what would be expected post-graduation regarding job knowledge, skills and conduct. Nowadays, A visit to the average public school finds the teachers dressed like every day is "Casual Friday" and the classroom attitude ranges from fear-of-the-student to so-what-you're-here. The list of "electives in 7-12 grades is unbelievable, and why we have all of these electives is a mystery, as there are no objective criteria upon which to base their need. What happened? ? ?

Say what you want about "no child left behind," but it spoke volumes about the overall disappointment of with public schools in general from its customers - the taxpayers in general who deal with youth who can't read, can't do basic math, have no business deportment skills - but do have a diploma which says they passed "life sciences" and the like.

I've taught as well - at the undergraduate and graduate level. I've been an employer of the product of the public school system. In both situations I have been highly disappointed with the overall preparedness of these young people in their command of the English language and their ability to apply basic math skills to logic. Yet, they claim to be knowledgeable about sexuality, the sex act, pregnancy (and it's prevention and abortion), and apparently have just enough information to get it wrong - as demonstrated by the ever-increasing teen-birth and teen-abortion rate.

We hue and cry that jobs are being shipped overseas, but the sad truth is that many of the information technology jobs can't be filled by today's US-educated entry-level labor force because their math and language (English, specifically) skills are second-rate (or worse) in comparison to the younger folk in other countries.

No - I don't want the parental burden "dumped on the schools." Public school teachers are not social scientists, and nor should they try to take that role. The public schools are to teach those basic subjects necessary to academically prepare students for the academic (not social) rigors of collegiate life and/or prepare students to enter the American work force with reasonable competency in the national language and the sciences at the level necessary for entry-level employment in the region. When schools can at least do that job with demonstrated competency, then expansion of curricula may have merit.

[Guest]

Parental burden should not be dumped on the schools. But it should be shored up by the schools. They should work hand in hand. In a perfect world that is.

[Guest]

Parental burden should not be dumped on the schools. But it should be shored up by the schools. They should work hand in hand. In a perfect world that is.

Agreed with caveat.

Public schools are not "special places." Public school teachers hold not "special status." Both exist to provide a taxpayer-paid service. There is no "shared parenting" happening, and schools and teachers should be held to objective standards of performance - just like any other government service or employee- and that evaluation criteria and measurement occur to value the performance.

[Guest]

You know...I will state once again that this is MY opinion.....that is what this forum is for....and I am glad it is here. It is good to look at other postings to hear what other people think....however in regards to my concerns....I will stand by them and I have a right to do so.

I feel horrible for Palin's family...the media...the 17 year old pregnant as she is running for VP....but that does not mean that I am worried about the stigma this will leave for young teens.

Keep in mind I am not really talking about the teenagers that have families that will support like Palin. I am sure she will have help from the nanny etc....

I do have a concern as a mom....as a voter....I don't think it is right! I am all for womens rights to have good jobs and equal pay...however if a mom is never home for her teenage daughters....and they have 4 other kids and are the Governor.....well.....what do we think will happen if she becomes VP!!

I don't think she should kick her daughter out into the street, I don't think she should make her have an abortion, I don't think she should make them get married....

As for the teenage boy who is the father....he should have responsibilities to the child.....but honestly how many 17 year old boys do you know now a days that would get married....just because she is pregnant....and stay with the marriage....






Cassie I am quoting you but I am saying this to all people who are flogging these sociocultural factors which condition behavioral patterns.

With all due respect instead of focusing on...

a pregnant teenager... (as a possible role model for today's young women, when Hollywood has such stellar examples for them to follow.) ...who happens to be the daughter of a now prominent V.P. Candidate...

...and the candidate's parenting responsibilities....because the candidate is a woman... (I wonder if anyone questioned Biden's ability to hold down a Senate job, a long commute and the raising of his boys..hmmm bet he wasn't home all that much. I know they say he had dinner with his family every night...wonder what time that was? Nobody has a family dinner every night)

Wouldn't it be refreshing to focus on the fact that a woman is after 20 years or so, finally again running for Vice President of this country. (It's only 86 years after we got the vote)

Whether she wins or not, whether you like her or not, isn't Palin's running, an example that we can hold up to our daughters and granddaughters to say, see that glass ceiling is finally once again starting to crack. You really can be what you want to be.

I don't know about you, but I for one am sick, sick, sick, of the sexism.

If you aren't old enough to remember what it was like before the liberation of women in the 60's and the 70's, or if you didn't experience it because you are a man, you have no right to criticize Palin on these topics.

If the family fell apart when women went to work maybe it is because the men didn't step up to the plate.

Another thought why is it that it is still okay to put the responsibility for having, supporting & raising that baby only on the girl's shoulders? It takes two to make this situation happen. The boy gave up his right to choose or not choose parenthood when he left his Trojans at home. And honestly they might actually be in love. It does happen. My mother was 18 when she got married and then pregnant with me. My parents were married for 41years when my dad died.

Argue your politics, have fun, but quit setting women back 40 years.
The allure of Father Knows Best was only cool on TV.

[Guest]

I agree with you Susan on having positive role models for our daughters. But let's make sure they're the right ones. I wouldn't want Sarah Palin as my daughter's role model.

[Guest]

Chels, it isn't whether or not you like her...I have little regard for Hilary...but I am glad that she had the opportunity to run her campaign without being shut out from the beginning just because she was a woman.

My point is people should be judged equally on their merits, not by their race, sex, age, etc. and the fact that that is finally happening in this election is wonderful.

Standards applied to one should be applied to all or none.

[Guest]

If I have to choose between Sarah Palin and Hillary, as a role model, I'll take Sarah. hands down.

[Guest]

I agree with you Susan on having positive role models for our daughters. But let's make sure they're the right ones. I wouldn't want Sarah Palin as my daughter's role model.

Politicians, pro athletes, entertainers and actors/actresses in general as life-style role models for kids is a danger anyway. Their job is not to be a morality model, but to perform specific duties and do specific tasks. Being a role model doesn't fit. Examples:

Pres. Bill Clinton - his personal behavior on-the-job was sickening, but many folks thought he was okay as a President. In fact, there were many who thought his impeachment was really about the Lewinsky matter, and believed that "wasn't fair."
A signficant number of the NBA and NFL superstars - Either have criminal records for everything from dog-fighting to drug running, and that doesn't include the number fathering children out of wedlock and dumping responsibilities later. Yet, they keep having their pictures on cereal boxes and get paid to endorse products marketed at the young.
U.S. Congresspersons - The list of these elected officials with ethics violations is scary. The behavior of many when away from the "home folk" and enjoying what DC has to offer parallels the ditties written about mariners-of-old on shore leave.
Sen. Ted Kennedy - I could go on for days on this dude, but he keeps getting re-elected.
Vice. Pres. Spiro Agnew - The only V.P. ever to resign because of criminal charges. That speaks volumes.
"____________" - Fill in the blank. This list could go on ad infinitum.

The bottom line is that if you want a President or Vice President or any other elected official to be the poster boy/girl for your concept of morality and example to your kids of "being perfect," no one will ever qualify.

So, if Gov. Palin (and her family) is being held to standards which were not applied to the aforementioned elected officials and those who entertain us for money, then there is indeed a double-standard being applied to her.

Whether the double-standard is because she is conservative (that's politics and expected) or is a woman (that's sexist and shameful), it doesn't say much for the so-called concept of "progressive liberal thought."

[Guest]

I think it is a waste of time and space to keep talking politics. This is not a political forum. Politics like religion should be off limits, no one is going to change any one's mind. However if the idea is to hear yourself, keep going.

[Guest]

:agree: with you Sally Jo and welcome to TOTV.

I also :agree: :agree: with you Steve. Role models for children should come from within their everday experience, not strangers who have very good PR people.

[Guest]

I think it is a waste of time and space to keep talking politics. This is not a political forum. Politics like religion should be off limits, no one is going to change any one's mind. However if the idea is to hear yourself, keep going.


I must disagree...I started not caring about politics at all. I haven't even voted in many years. While typically my views are VERY liberal...I have learned a lot from the people here on TOTV. I particularly like to read what Steve has to say. It is always intelligent and well thought out. While I am very emotional about my thoughts and what I have to say....there are always people giving me more to think about...more to learn...

So...while I have not changed my vote thus far...I have learned so much and it really has made me think. So I thank everyone who has posted here....I have learned so much from everyone! Steve, Peachie, Sammhass, Chels, Susan/Tom, bright, ronda, gracie and 07....I am sure there are many more that I have missed!!!

I am voting this year and I am very excited to do so...and honestly after all this...I haven't yet made up my mind!! I am learning and being educated! Isn't that what this is about!!

[Guest]

Good for you Cassie.

[Guest]

;D

thanks!!

[Guest]

I think it is a waste of time and space to keep talking politics. This is not a political forum. Politics like religion should be off limits, no one is going to change any one's mind. However if the idea is to hear yourself, keep going.
__________________________________________________ ____________-

I would totally disagree with this. I subscribe to a number of political forums with one intent, as Cassie said....TO LEARN. Sure this is a lot of "stuff" that is not true,meaningless and simply stupid,but if you are patient and DO YOUR RESEARCH on what folks say is true...I think that is vital...do not accept...use google and other sources to make sure what someone said is true is in fact a fact !!!!!

Great way to learn

[Guest]

I think it is a waste of time and space to keep talking politics. This is not a political forum. Politics like religion should be off limits, no one is going to change any one's mind. However if the idea is to hear yourself, keep going.
__________________________________________________ ____________-

I would totally disagree with this. I subscribe to a number of political forums with one intent, as Cassie said....TO LEARN. Sure this is a lot of "stuff" that is not true,meaningless and simply stupid,but if you are patient and DO YOUR RESEARCH on what folks say is true...I think that is vital...do not accept...use google and other sources to make sure what someone said is true is in fact a fact !!!!!

Great way to learn


Oh Bucco....I love when we agree on things!!! ;D

[Guest]

Wouldn't it be refreshing to focus on the fact that a woman is after 20 years or so, finally again running for Vice President of this country. (It's only 86 years after we got the vote)
If you aren't old enough to remember what it was like before the liberation of women in the 60's and the 70's, or if you didn't experience it because you are a man, you have no right to criticize Palin on these topics. Argue your politics, have fun, but quit setting women back 40 years.

Susan, great viewpoint! :beer2:

[Guest]

Thanks Bare. It is a hotspot of mine.

[Guest]

http://abcfamily.go.com/abcfamily/path/section_Shows+Secret-Life-Of-The-American-Teenager/page_Detail

A friend of mine called me and told me about this show....she said she put her kids in front of a movie...came back in and found them watching this!! Ofcourse it lef to some great conversations....but it certainly is no Leave it to Beaver or Brady Bunch.

[Guest]

I do have a concern as a mom....as a voter....I don't think it is right! I am all for womens rights to have good jobs and equal pay...however if a mom is never home for her teenage daughters....and they have 4 other kids and are the Governor.....well.....what do we think will happen if she becomes VP!!

No offense but did you even read what you wrote? You are FOR womens rights, good jobs, equal pay but AGAINST her being away from home because of the VP position but all of this is "A OK" if you are Barrack Obama who also has young children???

You can't have it both ways.

[Guest]

Chels, it isn't whether or not you like her...I have little regard for Hilary...but I am glad that she had the opportunity to run her campaign without being shut out from the beginning just because she was a woman.

My point is people should be judged equally on their merits, not by their race, sex, age, etc. and the fact that that is finally happening in this election is wonderful.

Standards applied to one should be applied to all or none.


On most of this statement we do agree Susan. Except I do have a great deal of regard for Hillary.

Absolutely, both standards should apply. I went through this "double standard" big time in advertising. One of my concepts landed a 10 million dollar account for an ad agency I was working for. Don Tennant, owned the agency was very chauvinistic. He actually held the celebration luncheon at an all men's club in Chicago. It was blatant an of course I was angry and hurt.

My only point was on the flip side of the coin, I would be careful of who I wanted to point out as a role model to MY daughter. Just because a woman makes it to a certain position in her career, doesn't automatically make her a great role model. It's got to be the entire package, not just 'The Vagina Monologues'.

[Guest]

No offense but did you even read what you wrote? You are FOR womens rights, good jobs, equal pay but AGAINST her being away from home because of the VP position but all of this is "A OK" if you are Barrack Obama who also has young children???

You can't have it both ways.



I CAN ABSOLUTELY HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!! I HAVE DONE IT FOR YEARS! Equal pay for equal jobs has nothing to do with her being a mother! I have worked full time my entire life....and I am raising a child...and for most of that time on my own! I have worked hard enough to make sure that time is split equally! I also work for a company that says "Family First". If you can not take care of yourself...your family then you can not do the job well!!
I ALSO get equal pay for equal work...if not better then some of my male counter parts!!!

A child needs its mother....but she can still work and be home when needed!!

[Guest]

A child needs its mother....but she can still work and be home when needed!!
But that's not what you said "Can she work and be home when needed?". You have already come to the conclusion for some strange reason that she cannot? What about Obama? Doesn't the same go for him if he is elected President? Or are you just totally against "Women Working" and not being home for their children? Or is it OK for Obama because he has a wife that will be home with the kids (where a women is suppose to be, I guess in your mind). Which is it?

Below is what you said about Palin: Note it was NOT "Can she give equal time to her kids?" It was much more harsh than that.

Quote from: Cassie325 on September 07, 2008, 11:29:26 AM
I do have a concern as a mom....as a voter....I don't think it is right! I am all for womens rights to have good jobs and equal pay...however if a mom is never home for her teenage daughters....and they have 4 other kids and are the Governor.....well.....what do we think will happen if she becomes VP!!

[Guest]

Chelsea...dangerous? Gossip without facts is dangerous. You wouldn't want anyone to be judging your words or actions. What goes around, comes around. Let's remember dignity here. Thank you.

[Guest]

I CAN ABSOLUTELY HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!! I HAVE DONE IT FOR YEARS! Equal pay for equal jobs has nothing to do with her being a mother! I have worked full time my entire life....and I am raising a child...and for most of that time on my own! I have worked hard enough to make sure that time is split equally! I also work for a company that says "Family First". If you can not take care of yourself...your family then you can not do the job well!!
I ALSO get equal pay for equal work...if not better then some of my male counter parts!!!

A child needs its mother....but she can still work and be home when needed!!


As all of this is in regards to the Palin household and how some have the feeling her kids "suffer" because she works - this is a two-parent household where the father is basically acting as the stay-most-of-the-time-at-home parent.

Mothers don't have a monopoly on child-rearing, advice-giving, skinned-knee patching, and all the other ups-and-downs with raising kids. The role of "father" seems to have become detached in these posts with an insinuation that only mothers matter. That seems a bit chauvanistic.

[Guest]

As all of this is in regards to the Palin household and how some have the feeling her kids "suffer" because she works - this is a two-parent household where the father is basically acting as the stay-most-of-the-time-at-home parent.

Mothers don't have a monopoly on child-rearing, advice-giving, skinned-knee patching, and all the other ups-and-downs with raising kids. The role of "father" seems to have become detached in these posts with an insinuation that only mothers matter. That seems a bit chauvanistic.


That is exactly my point. She implies that the mother should be at home spending time with her kids but no mention of the father. Then states that she is for womens rights, working mom's etc. ???

[Guest]

WOW, this topic developed a life of its own ::) so I guess I'll throw in my two-cents worth of comment.......... :dontknow: somehow, it doesn't seem right to blame the mother for her teenage daughter's judgement and behavior.

[Guest]

Chelsea...dangerous? Gossip without facts is dangerous. You wouldn't want anyone to be judging your words or actions. What goes around, comes around. Let's remember dignity here. Thank you.


CJ, I don't have a clue to what you're referring to? :dontknow:

[Guest]

CJ, I don't have a clue to what you're referring to? :dontknow:


Chels....apparently you and I are one in the same...this happens quite a bit! Sorry about that...my guess is he/she was talking to me!

However...if I am thought of as similar to you....not such a bad thing....just don't want you yelled at because of me.... ;)

[Guest]

As all of this is in regards to the Palin household and how some have the feeling her kids "suffer" because she works - this is a two-parent household where the father is basically acting as the stay-most-of-the-time-at-home parent.

Mothers don't have a monopoly on child-rearing, advice-giving, skinned-knee patching, and all the other ups-and-downs with raising kids. The role of "father" seems to have become detached in these posts with an insinuation that only mothers matter. That seems a bit chauvanistic.

[quote=Puterguru ]
That is exactly my point. She implies that the mother should be at home spending time with her kids but no mention of the father. Then states that she is for womens rights, working mom's etc. ???




A mother can work full time...make just as much money as the father...but still needs to be home for the children....

Two things:

mothers and fathers parent differently...mothers (typically) get more involved in the personal side of a teenagers life...they just have that intuition....

and a teenage girl needs her mother (as much as she claims to not like her mother...still needs her)

However....now stop yelling....I can see your point...there is another parent....and my comments seem sexist...I apologize....but I still think that a teenage girl can get away with murder with her father....a nothing with her mother....if she is home ENOUGH....not all the time....just enough!!

THIS IS MY OPINION...AS AN EX-TEENAGE GIRL(NOT SO LONG AGO IN MY OPINION) AND A MOTHER OF A SOON TO BE TEENAGE GIRL....THANKS FOR LISTENING.....

NOW I AM DEPRESSING MYSELF!!! :'(

[Guest]

Cassie

You say a mother can work full time but still needs to be home for the children,

You libs have said several times WHERE IS CHENEY has anyone seen him?

Maybe he was babysitting grandkids or something instead of being behind the curtain controlling GW.


OOOwherethehellishe?? Benj

[Guest]

Cassie

You say a mother can work full time but still needs to be home for the children,

You libs have said several times WHERE IS CHENEY has anyone seen him?

Maybe he was babysitting grandkids or something instead of being behind the curtain controlling GW.


OOOwherethehellishe?? Benj



I don't believe I have ever asked where Cheney is!!!!! EVER!!!


Actually benj, I don't even think about him...cause he is not around!!!

1rnfl 1rnfl 1rnfl 1rnfl 1rnfl

OMG...I crack myself up......must have been the dancing tonight....I am too funny! Now I am going to get in trouble!

[Guest]

Thanks cassie you make my point for me. HA HA

You say " cause he's not around" Duh so If he's not around maybe Palin wouldnt be around and therefor would have lots of time to take care of her kids. You know the ones you think will be abandoned.

Where is OOOwishiwaspres??? Benj

[Guest]

benj

OOOwishyudshudup

[Guest]

benj

OOOwishyudshudup



1rnfl 1rnfl Ohhhh Bright! I love you! I needed a good laugh tonight!

OOOhezanass! 1rnfl

[Guest]

Bright

OOOwishobamawouldshutup.

OOOwheredidchrismathewsgo???
come up with original ideas of your own...Benj

[Guest]

chelsea

Since all my OOO's reference Obama I assume you mean Obama is an ASS??

For someone as fair and open minded as you I'm surprised you have to resort to swearing but as others have mentioned here YOU are the best at namecalling. Is swearing fair game now?. I know how.

OOOishouldofbeenrepublican!!! Benj

[Guest]

chelsea

Since all my OOO's reference Obama I assume you mean Obama is an ASS??

For someone as fair and open minded as you I'm surprised you have to resort to swearing but as others have mentioned here YOU are the best at namecalling. Is swearing fair game now?. I know how.

OOOishouldofbeenrepublican!!! Benj


No Benj, that was not meant for Obama. Just a secret message to my wonderful friend Bright. Have a good evening, chels ;D

[Guest]

chels

You know there's a dictionary on your computer maybe you can find other words than swear words to articulate your positions. Boy if all we're going to do is swear at each other I'm going to have a blast.

OOOiwantthejet!!! Benj

[Guest]

chels

You know there's a dictionary on your computer maybe you can find other words than swear words to articulate your positions. Boy if all we're going to do is swear at each other I'm going to have a blast.

OOOiwantthejet!!! Benj

You have highjacked my thread!!! Stop it....time to call a truce! Be nice benj!!!

[Guest]

Cassie


DID I CALL ANYONE AN ASS???

Maybe you should ask Chels to be nice, I didn't swear at anyone Benj

[Guest]

On most of this statement we do agree Susan. Except I do have a great deal of regard for Hillary.

My only point was on the flip side of the coin, I would be careful of who I wanted to point out as a role model to MY daughter. Just because a woman makes it to a certain position in her career, doesn't automatically make her a great role model. It's got to be the entire package, not just 'The Vagina Monologues'.




Here we agree also Chels...on the basic point that is. I would not want my daughter to model herself after Hillary just because she ran for Pres. Sarah would be just fine.

Cassie with all due respect your viewpoint is so narrowly focused on just your own experience.

You make equal pay only because of the struggles and demands of those women who came before you. Most women, even today, still do not equal the wages of their male counterpart, but at least now it is possible.

You are lucky to have found a job that values family first. I too have found those jobs in my lifetime, but I have also done the 80 hour a week jobs, while raising my children.

During those times, Tom had to step up his parenting. My opinion, the more a man is allowed to parent the better parent he is. I think women have historically pushed men away from the ugly or tedious parts of parenting by assuming men can't do it as well. Just as men pushed women away from the work world when it came to the management jobs. That is changing.

Your comment about a teen needing her mother's discipline because she can wrap dad around her finger. That must be your story, it is not the story of all women.

If women want equality, we must be equal, to be equal, men must be equal. It doesn't matter who is home with the kids and who has the biggest career. It all just has to get done however, a couple want to divide the responsibilities.

[Guest]

cassie

So chels calls me an ass. I ask her if she meant Obama is an ass she says no I'm an ass I ask her if she could find other words to use ,then you ask ME to be nice then I ask you if you would ask chels to be nice and here I sit waiting for you to ask her, and nothing. Could you be biased? Benj

[Guest]

Here we agree also Chels...on the basic point that is. I would not want my daughter to model herself after Hillary just because she ran for Pres. Sarah would be just fine.

Cassie with all due respect your viewpoint is so narrowly focused on just your own experience.

You make equal pay only because of the struggles and demands of those women who came before you. Most women, even today, still do not equal the wages of their male counterpart, but at least now it is possible.

You are lucky to have found a job that values family first. I too have found those jobs in my lifetime, but I have also done the 80 hour a week jobs, while raising my children.

During those times, Tom had to step up his parenting. My opinion, the more a man is allowed to parent the better parent he is. I think women have historically pushed men away from the ugly or tedious parts of parenting by assuming men can't do it as well. Just as men pushed women away from the work world when it came to the management jobs. That is changing.

Your comment about a teen needing her mother's discipline because she can wrap dad around her finger. That must be your story, it is not the story of all women.

If women want equality, we must be equal, to be equal, men must be equal. It doesn't matter who is home with the kids and who has the biggest career. It all just has to get done however, a couple want to divide the responsibilities.




Susan...while I respect and appreciate what you have said here....you really should not assume that this is MY story.....in fact it is not....just my opinion.

I was a single mom and made it work by fighting and proving my worth....that I would not only have time at home with my family but also equal pay. It was not "luck" that brought me to the job I am in now...it was smart work on my part....

Perhaps Tom was a good parent and did his part...good for him and for you and for your children...

I also will say that while my mother went back to get her masters...while working full time....my father did his part.....they were a team....so this has nothing to do with my upbringing either just in case anyone questions that....but times are a little different now a days....at least in my opinion...I could go on and on with my opinions....not my experience or story....but we will just agree to disagree I guess.....

As for my comment about a daughter needing her mother especially in her teen years....sometimes it is just a womens intuition....I am sure that has no facts to back it up....but a mother knows when her child needs help.....a mother just knows!!!

[Guest]

cassie

So chels calls me an ass. I ask her if she meant Obama is an ass she says no I'm an ass I ask her if she could find other words to use ,then you ask ME to be nice then I ask you if you would ask chels to be nice and here I sit waiting for you to ask her, and nothing. Could you be biased? Benj


Benj!!! You are right! Chels BE NICE!!!! But perhaps I am biased....because I wasn't really talking about that comment....I was talking about all of the other ones....

Let's be nice!!! Disagree...Agree....doesn't matter....let's just be nice about it!
:'(

[Guest]

...

As for my comment about a daughter needing her mother especially in her teen years....sometimes it is just a womens intuition....I am sure that has no facts to back it up....but a mother knows when her child needs help.....a mother just knows!!!


I beg to differ. If that were true, the teen birth rate would not be stratospheric, runaways would be down, suicides and other such stuff would not be on the rise, and all sorts of other distress situations wouold go away. While one may be more observant to warning signs (if one wants to, and that is not gender-unique) being a mother (or father) does not make one a mind reader.

I'm sorry, but that's somewhat sexist and chauvanistic.

[Guest]

I beg to differ. If that were true, the teen birth rate would not be stratospheric, runaways would be down, suicides and other such stuff would not be on the rise, and all sorts of other distress situations would go away. While one may be more observant to warning signs (if one wants to, and that is not gender-unique) being a mother (or father) does not make one a mind reader.
I'm sorry, but that's somewhat sexist and chauvinistic.


Don't apologize....again thank you...I KNOW I am not always right...in other people's minds...

I do "feel" that mothers have better instincts (notice I said I FEEL not I KNOW) but perhaps I am not giving fathers a chance....not all deserve one...(my Dad is great by the way)but perhaps most do....read what I found...I guess I am going to the book store today...Thanks again Steve... ;)

http://www.betweenfathersanddaughters.com/course.asp