Morseville 'Bondage'

[Midge538]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/community/news/villages/orl-lritchie1008sep10,0,1600764.column

[Hyacinth Bucket]

Midge, thank you for posting this article.

HB

[ladykathleen]

Thank you midge for posting the article. I only hope Gary Morse cannot "buy off" the IRS.

[Talk Host]

This is really interesting.

[Peachie]

Before the rest of us start jumping up and down in glee, what would be the incentive for Mr. Morse to continue to develop at a top notch level and not plop any old mess next to us in completing the development and to maintain any of it at a high standard if there isn't sufficient profit to make it worth his time? Any thoughts?

And, IMHO, do we really think the Orlando Sentinel's Lauren Ritchie has The Villages best interests at heart? It has to be somewhat frustrating for the Orlando area to watch this beautiful development continue to grow and watch people buy homes and settle here and not in Orlando. Often parents and children also stay with grandparents here and not in Orlando when attending Disney World which causes a loss of tourist dollars because motels/hotels and meal dollars aren't spent there.

All fodder for thought....

[Sally Jo]

I've lived here for seven years. I still haven't seen a pro Villages article in the Orlando "Slantinel."

[Peachie]

We haven't been there that long, Sally Jo, but I have noticed the OS does not appear to have a positive attitude toward The Villages. Would the OS like it if the developer stumbles big time and The Villages, as it is, collapses?

[collie1228]

I don't know anything about the Orlando Sentinel, but I did notice that the article was prefaced by the following: "Special report COMMENTARY". This is the author's opinion, and you should take that into consideration. At least this paper clearly identifies opinion - you won't get that from the New York Times.

[Peachie]

A quote from Ritchie's 1st article in the OS series:

"You can see what the agent is thinking by the questions and can almost picture him turning this Rubik's cube of financing genius over and over as he tries to wrap his mind around the most clever scheme since carpetbaggers realized they could charge old ladies in Jersey $10 a month for swamp lots. It's like he just can't believe it's true".

That doesn't read like an unbiased report to me, IMHO, the innuendo is huge. It should have probably been printed under "Letters to the Editor".

[villages07]

Many other Florida communities are governed by CDDs and insitute bonds to pay for initial infrastructure. Are the issues Ms Ritchie raised about the IRS "audit" and federal tax deductibility of the bonds the same for these other communities? What's also a little muddled is whether the IRS is looking at both types of bonds.... the initial infrastrucutre bonds and the susequent Center CDD recreation bonds used to purchase amenities....or just the recreation bonds. I agree with Peachie....this all sounds a lot like the author's opinion and not pure facts...I'd rather hear directly from the IRS what they are investigating.

[rshoffer]

Before the rest of us start jumping up and down in glee, what would be the incentive for Mr. Morse to continue to develop at a top notch level and not plop any old mess next to us in completing the development and to maintain any of it at a high standard if there isn't sufficient profit to make it worth his time? Any thoughts?

And, IMHO, do we really think the Orlando Sentinel's Lauren Ritchie has The Villages best interests at heart? It has to be somewhat frustrating for the Orlando area to watch this beautiful development continue to grow and watch people buy homes and settle here and not in Orlando. Often parents and children also stay with grandparents here and not in Orlando when attending Disney World which causes a loss of tourist dollars because motels/hotels and meal dollars aren't spent there.

All fodder for thought....
excellent point

[dianerk]

Interesting that the Orlando Sentinel chose to pick on The Villages re. the CDD / bonding issues. They would NEVER write negatively about Celebration in their own back yard -- mainly because of the sacred Disney involvement.

[samhass]

;D Good point, jbsmom.

[Alex]

I am waiting for the IRS to report. Sounds complicated.

[jjdees]

Aah, the media and the IRS. What a wonderful pair. Ritchie should invite the ACLU in too. Take it away from the Morse's and turn it over to the politicians to run. Maybe they can replicate Detroit.

[graciegirl]

Here's my take on it because I am a woman. I don't like that reporter's little beady eyes. :dontknow:

[Lauren Ritchie]

hello villagers,

someone sent me this link after my columns about villages bond debt were published in the sentinel earlier this week. i think i can explain a little about what i do so that you better understand the columns and how they came about.

first, i noticed that "peachie" questioned whether i had the "best interest of the villages" at heart. i do not. if you want a news source that has the best interest of the developer at heart, then you had best stick with the daily sun, which is wholly owned by the villages developer. that said, i also do not have any interest the other way. i don't live there, and i don't have any financial interest. none of the my relatives live there. in other words, i don't have any stake in this matter one way or the other.

the sentinel is an independent news organization. as for the person who questioned why we write about the villages but not celebration, i can only tell you that you are mistaken. you live in north lake county, which gets an edition of the sentinel that does not go to readers in osceola county, where celebration is located. news of this area goes in this edition. news of that area goes in that edition. they're probably sitting in celebration wondering why the sentinel writes about them and not the villages.

what i do, however, is not news. i write opinion. it is my job to look at an issue, take a stand and write it in a persuasive way. my column is not "balanced." it is not designed to be. that is why it is labeled commentary, as one perceptive reader noted.

this series of columns began when someone anonymously sent me copies of the IRS queries for information. though they came to me anonymously, they were public record. the villages' 12 governmental districts all fall under florida's sunshine (public meetings) laws and public records laws.

if you would care to read the same information for yourself (as one poster remarked), simply email janet.tutt@districtgov.org and i suspect she'll do for you what she did for me -- send the entire set of inquiries in electronic form.

as to why i found this interesting and worth writing about, you must know a little about the financing structure of the villages to understand it.

here, i'd like to pause a moment. the villages, in my opinion, is a wonderful and maddening place to live all at once. socially, it's way cool. you guys have it great up there. because it's such a fun place to live, i think that people tend to overlook the financial structure of the place, which unfortunately is built on the premise (in my opinion) that you'll continue to pay and that you'll be so satisfied that you won't ask questions.

now, back to the issue at hand. the villages has two types of community development districts and so far has issued three types of bonds.

the two most powerful districts are the village center district and the sumter landing district. the other districts are what you call the "numbered" districts.

the big districts have issued the bonds that i wrote about -- the recreational revenue bonds, which buy not only the right to collect amenity fees but also things like clubhouses, golf courses, pools and the like. the ones issued in 2003 are the subject of the IRS inquiry. they are backed by your amenity fees. the districts collect $33 million in amenity fees and roughly half is pledged to repay the bonds. if you didn't have those bonds, you'd still have all the amenities PLUS another $17 million a year to spend on more villages goodies. the big districts also issue utility bonds to buy, for example, water and sewer plants. those, typically are repaid by the ratepayers, (you) and i suspect that is the case for your utility bonds.

the third type of bond is referred to as special assessment bonds. they are issued by the numbered districts. as of aug. 31, the numbered districts owed between $765,000 (district 1) and $107 million (district 6) in outstanding bond debt. that loan went to buy infrastructure, such as roads, street lights, rentention ponds, sewer lines, etc. i may be wrong, but i believe the amount appears on the tax bill as a special assessment.

so here's the situation: if you're paying $130 a month, that's more than $1,500 a year in amenity fees; you're also paying some widely varying amount for the infrastructure on your tax bill, and you're paying for the utility plants in your months utility bills. how much is it total, in addition to your mortgage (if any)? i can't answer that because of the wide variation of bond debt among the districts. however, it easily can be calculated for an individual home.

theoretically, the price you paid when you bought in the villages should only have included the actual land and structure. everything else (from pools to streetlights to sewer lines) is extra -- being paid for in long-term debt (with a boatload of interest) because the developer wanted to take the profit right now rather than over a period of time.

my personal opinion is that villages houses weren't exactly dirt cheap, so it is difficult for me to believe the developer isn't making a profit off you twice -- or in some cases, four times. (three types of bonds plus your purchase price of the house) this is not a purchase i would advice my father to make, and i don't think that's ok. that's why i write these columns.

however, the real judge is you. is this good for you? that's an individual choice. if you knowledgably add up the total you're paying over a period of time and you find that it's worth what you're getting in return, then that's the end of the story. that's all that is important.

but to claim (from a standpoint of ignorance) that the sentinel is simply "against" the villages or wants the developer to fail for some weird vague reason is just a way of trying to escape a serious examination of the real issue, which is the amount of long term debt you're in hock for and how it affects your personal finances. i noticed a posting at one point by someone who said something to the effect, 'just let us live in our bubble.' certainly, you can do choose to do that. just don't read what is written about the villages. but why try to keep others from learning more?

i find that many retirees are money savvy want to learn more about the financing structure of their community and what their role is in that structure. i hope that i have provided accurate and useful information in that regard.

i will try to check back on this post and answer questions, but i receive a pretty staggering daily volume of email, and i try very hard to answer each one. if you would like more detailed information or want to know how to obtain more information for yourself, your best bet is to email me at LRitchie@orlandosentinel.com all of the information that appeared in my column is factual and provided directly to me by your governmental district manager, who i found to be a very dedicated, efficient and lovely person.

thanks for letting me explain. i know this is wildly long, but i hope that helps you understand the columns.

lauren

[graciegirl]

Wow. I take back the part about her little beady eyes. If only the article was published in this journalistic form. sigh.

[Peachie]

I agree, Graciegirl, journalistic form would have given lauren ritchie a leg up in her report.
lauren, just as many of us suspected, you are being fed this information by a disgruntled, not unbiased individual so you may write a biased commentary on issues involving The Villages. Did you notice, by chance, that Villagers are extremely interested in any situation that involves our community? What we are asking for is an unbiased, uncommented straight article regarding the IRS review of the bonds in The Villages. How are we to make informed, educated decisions regarding our futures when we are reading "commentary"? We have enough "the sky is falling" type individuals in the area providing no facts but constant rants. Most of us realize this is not the cheapest place on earth to live but we have so much more "bang for the buck" in The Villages for our retirement lives than anywhere else. There was a recent forum advising a single senior that one could probably live easily in TV for approximately $1500. to $2000., (total living budget), per month. Give us the gritty details in your reports without your side comments and no personal interpetations and you will have a great following in TV. We are very interested in news that affects us, we are not interested in the comments or innuendo of someone living in the greater Orlando area being fed as much negative information as possible by people with no interest in the success of TV.

[Frangyomory]

I thank Ms. Richie for her response. Now that's a lot to digest and I plan to read it again, more slowly and I would appreciate it if others would do the same and make some well thought comments on her information. There could be some truth here and we need to investigate this before we call her down on what she has said.

[Peachie]

Fran, I'm not calling her down on reporting in IRS investigation... but I want facts, no spin! These issues are too important for her to live outside TV and "comment" on her opinion of TV. lauren's blog on the forum in response provides more usable information than her newspaper article. That is what is needed, we'll decide after we read the "facts".

[rshoffer]

The more I read the less I know and understand. I guess that's why my eyes glazed over in college economics. These things are like a smoke and mirrors or shell game sleight-of-hand. However, I bet there are some very sophisticated and erudite retired economists here in TV and if we truely were being taken for a ride the facts would quickly rise to the surface and become known to all.

[Irish Rover]

Lauren - nice piece. You kind of exposed the reason we haven't bought in TV after renting for six years. Bonds and amenities fees are something we don't want to deal with. It's easier to rent a place for two months, not worry about bonds and fees then hand back the keys until next year. Thanks for the viewpoint. :bigthumbsup:

[Peachie]

And thank you, Irish Rover, you have exposed an issue which I think people need to rethink... rentals are way too cheap in The Villages! What a deal for the renters and maybe rates need to be evaluated and raised for the landlords to help pay their costs. ;)

[Midge538]

It was interesting to read Ms. Ritchie's further illumination re: the columns that she wrote concerning TV "Bondage" issue. We are fortunate to have TOTV to provide this forum for us to share, debate and to learn. Maybe her letter will appear in the Daily Sun for all those who do not share in our site ... you think?

[chelsea24]

And thank you, Irish Rover, you have exposed an issue which I think people need to rethink... rentals are way to cheap in The Villages! What a deal for the renters and maybe rates need to be evaluated and raised for the landlords to help pay their costs. ;)


I absolutely agree with you Peachie! 100%! I think rentals should be raised. I think you should start a thread on this. GREAT IDEA! :#1:

[Cassie325]

Here's my take on it because I am a woman. I don't like that reporter's little beady eyes. :dontknow:

Wow. I take back the part about her little beady eyes. If only the article was published in this journalistic form. sigh.




Oh Gracie...I didn't even read the thing....too long...but I wanted to just say to you....

I LOVE YOU....you have the best attitude and sense of humor!

I have highjacked yet another thread....

Promise to read it later and respond with something intelligent...atleast IMHO....

[Peachie]

Chels, hubby and I have stayed in some very nice hotels/motels over the years and all you get for some very high prices, in some instances, was a bed and that was a daily rate. Renters in The Villages have an unbelieveable array of goodies available to them plus their own private residence and often, golf cart. The rates for rentals here are a steal, particularly from November through April. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for nothing applies to a a..hem different situation, but for just a little cash one can get a whole lotta milk and honey here if you rent!

[chelsea24]

Exactly! And IMHO it's an attitude like Irish Rover's that should shake people up to raise their rents.

[Cassie325]

Exactly! And IMHO it's an attitude like Irish Rover's that should shake people up to raise their rents.


Let them keep it low....they will rent theirs but so will you if you rent it last....at say $3500-4000 a month??? If someone really wants to come and every place is rented...they will pay it!!! We rented our villa for Feb-April at $3500 per month....a little villa for that price....but there was no where else!!! Some might say we took advantage....you better believe we did....

[chelsea24]

Sorry Cassie, I don't quite understand your post. We are not only homeowners, but we have invested in a Lifestyle. When people rent here, they are renting the "Lifestyle as well" They should pay appropriately for that.

[Peachie]

Cassie, I don't think you took advantage... that averages out to $117.98 per day with no additional "room tax". So by the time you have it cleaned, pay the taxes on your earnings, cover you butt with insurance for the exposure, wear and tear, pay the utilities and perhaps you are providing a cart... your renters are getting a terrific deal. There is no advantage taken here of the renter...

What is the rack rate for a room at the Hampton Inn with none of The Villages amenities and you're right, Chels, this should be a separate forum. But it does line up with the bond issues, there ain't no free ride. The developer is not creating The Villages for his entertainment, he wants to make a profit. The only thing new I learned from lauren ritches post today is that she doesn't want her father to live here. I'm ok with that.

[Cassie325]

Sorry Cassie, I don't quite understand your post. We are not only homeowners, but we have invested in a Lifestyle. When people rent here, they are renting the "Lifestyle as well" They should pay nicely for that.


Chels...I was just saying that we can let others keep it low....then when there is nothing left to rent....and if you try for Feb-April you can't find anything....YOU and other smart people will get top dollar!! It is really hard to find rentals for Feb-April....although I do know of one more place if anyone needs it...

Peachie...you are right...perhaps I should up the price....thankfully we have a second place to stay...so we can maintain our "life" here....love this!!!

[benj]

How about this.

Lets let the free market decide what rents should be.
You know where a willing buyer and a willing seller, both acting on whats the best for each of them, decide they what to offer/receive. Raise your rent all you want and see if there are any takers, if not adjust accordingly. Thats how it works in America. Benj

[Peachie]

Sure, Benj, people just need to put their heads together and figure this one out. Quite often the renters entertain and house their friends during the stay also, increasing the utilites costs for the rental period. And while they are partying, the owner is also paying the lawn maintenance, pest maintenance, real estate taxes and the amenity fees. Hubby and I were prepared to pay $1,000. more per month 4 years ago when we rented during the month of March. We were pleasantly surprised by the cheap rents in TV.

[Betty Mary]

It appears Lauren has generated more discussion about rentals than the issue. Maybe someone should ask Lauren which she would prefer: 1. Paying the monthly amenity fee, which we committed to when we bought here, to a government entity responsible for being, as she said, subject to public records, sunshine law, state requirements or 2. Paying to a private entity not subject to public records, sunshine law, state requirements, oh, and yes, would take that 17 million as profit. I purposely bought in here because government will control and maintain the future of this community and not a developer. Nothing against the developer who created this great community...but long after the developer is gone this community will continue because of the government structure and legal requirements. She fails to recognize that when the bonds are paid off...the government will own the infrastructure and amenity fee revenues...if it stayed with developer...he/she would still own it forever...Seems Lauren is so fixated on the negatives of the developer being a good business person that she fails to see the long term benefit for us! I don't know about you, but people I know in other communities pay more for amenity fees and get a WHOLE lot less! So, maybe Lauren's dad should move to one of those communities...and Lauren can move in with him!

[jadebox]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/community/news/villages/orl-lritchie1008sep10,0,1600764.column

Laura Ritchie gets her jollies downing The Villages and The Morse's. I would not pay attention to her. Can't figure out what her problem is BUT it is sick.

[ijusluvit]

I'M REALLY CONFUSED!!!!

What's all this about three kinds of bonds? In my simple mind 'the bond' which accompanies the sale price of most houses was the individual's share of the infrastructure cost and that the amenity fees pay for ongoing maintenance. What is the third type of bond and how am I paying for it now or in the future?

[gemorc]

Before I jump to any conclusions either way, I am following L. Ritchie's advise. I will be making a request to Ms. Tutt for all the information available concerning TV bond structure. I will then send it to an economist friend up north. I will ask for an impartial appraisal of TV future bond debt and possible options available.

I will report back later.

[rshoffer]

Before I jump to any conclusions either way, I am following L. Ritchie's advise. I will be making a request to Ms. Tutt for all the information available concerning TV bond structure. I will then send it to an economist friend up north. I will ask for an impartial appraisal of TV future bond debt and possible options available.

I will report back later.
FANTASTIC>>> an educated and informed response is what we need!

[graciegirl]

Cassie, I don't think you took advantage... that averages out to $117.98 per day with no additional "room tax". So by the time you have it cleaned, pay the taxes on your earnings, cover you butt with insurance for the exposure, wear and tear, pay the utilities and perhaps you are providing a cart... your renters are getting a terrific deal. There is no advantage taken here of the renter...

What is the rack rate for a room at the Hampton Inn with none of The Villages amenities and you're right, Chels, this should be a separate forum. But it does line up with the bond issues, there ain't no free ride. The developer is not creating The Villages for his entertainment, he wants to make a profit. The only thing new I learned from lauren ritches post today is that she doesn't want her father to live here. I'm ok with that.


Peachie, have I told you yet today that I love you?

[nitehawk]

What is the problem with the post of Lauren Ritchie, not being in journalistic form? - talk about finding "fault" with something or someone. Or is it what she wrote that you do not like. She said "what i do, however, is not news. i write opinion." She is entitled to here opinion and we do not have to read it. We can continue to drink the kool-aid. It was very well written (journalistic form or not) and not in the form of a William Buckley admirer. It is nice to have some definitions of the different kinds of bonds out there, and what they are used for. It was good to hear that a source was given, "if you would care to read the same information for yourself (as one poster remarked), simply email janet.tutt@districtgov.org. I did not see any " I heard", "Someone told me", "We should" (which means someone else should), "I wish" .

[Peachie]

perhaps we felt nitehawk that ritchies attitude toward totv is dismissive is using a very low form of communication vs the journalistic form which ritchie would normally use

in her words

"what i do, however, is not news. i write opinion. it is my job to look at an issue, take a stand and write it in a persuasive way. my column is not "balanced." it is not designed to be. that is why it is labeled commentary, as one perceptive reader noted."


"but to claim (from a standpoint of ignorance) that the sentinel is simply "against" the villages or wants the developer to fail for some weird vague reason is just a way of trying to escape a serious examination of the real issue, which is the amount of long term debt you're in hock for and how it affects your personal finances."

this is her opinion spin in her own words and not the type of report for which you are looking you want facts not someone sitting in the orlando area telling us what she thinks is wrong with tv as i stated in a response to her give us the details and no more we will weigh the facts and make our own decisions that koolaid phrase is used by the villagers in jest as to how much they love this community her inference that we re oblivious is not appreciated its an amusing fact that when the villagers scrutinize her motives and offer a reason why she may not have our best interests at heart, we are ignorant guess it just depends who's ox is being gored

i am delighted to see that gemorc has a great connection whom will read and evaluate the bond issues thank you for that gemorc i also state you don't get this lifestyle for free or a token contribution one has to maintain the features of the villages or the villages will be dismantled the developer is not the "big daddy" people want him to be, he is a businessman

by the way i appreciated the journalistic form you used nitehawk this is just an example of how punctuation and capitalization affects the message.

[rdmills]

I had dealt with the print media for many years. They all enjoy trying to discredit everything and anybody. They all wish that their reporting wins them a Pulitzer Prize. Don't believe all you read. Their editor also puts his/her slant on most articles. That why I like our happy paper where I can find meal deals within TV.

[Alex]

Knowledge is power. I am glad people are reading Lauren Ritchie. I hope people keep reading and understand all this before they buy in the Villages. They can chose to agree or disagree. I thank Lauren Ritchie and am waiting for the IRS to finish their investigation.

[graciegirl]

Knowledge is power. I am glad people are reading Lauren Ritchie. I hope people keep reading and understand all this before they buy in the Villages. They can chose to agree or disagree. I thank Lauren Ritchie and am waiting for the IRS to finish their investigation.


Alex. Alex. Alex.

[Cliff]

I would like to compliment Ms Ritchie on her explanation of her article. It was not necessary for her to do that. Unfortunately, Ms Ritchie, you have hit a stone wall of closed minds who do not want to listen to reason. If you complain about anything here, you are a whiner and hate the developer. These people just can't imagine that there is another side to every story. It is their way of putting down good common sense. It would help if they could listen as well as talk. Note how many posts some of them have and you will see that they just sit at the computer hour after hour commenting on things they they have very little knowlege about. Disagree with their comments, and your are made to feel like an outcast. So, Ms Ritchie, thank you and welcome to the rapidly growing list of outcasts.

[zcaveman]

Thanks Cliff. :agree:

[collie1228]

"[P]eople just need to put their heads together and figure this one out"? Maybe the gas and electric companies should put their heads together on their pricing as well - and how about the airlines? Everybody knows that airline pricing is all screwed up (like rent) and we should let the airlines all get together to "fix the problem"! But wait a minute, isn't price fixing illegal? Oh well, let's keep electing people like Bernie Sanders and Charlie Rangel, they'll fix it so the government sets prices (and wages), then everything will be just perfect, even rents.

[livsea2]

I would like to compliment Ms Ritchie on her explanation of her article. It was not necessary for her to do that. Unfortunately, Ms Ritchie, you have hit a stone wall of closed minds who do not want to listen to reason. If you complain about anything here, you are a whiner and hate the developer. These people just can't imagine that there is another side to every story. It is their way of putting down good common sense. It would help if they could listen as well as talk. Note how many posts some of them have and you will see that they just sit at the computer hour after hour commenting on things they they have very little knowledge about. Disagree with their comments, and your are made to feel like an outcast. So, Ms Ritchie, thank you and welcome to the rapidly growing list of outcasts.




Amen Cliff, some of these people are so blinded by their bigotry, that reason and logic escapes them. I would also like to thank Ms. Ritchie because there was one part of the bond issue I couldn't get an answer on and she provided it in her explanation. CDS were instituted in good faith to provide amenities and infrastructure with out a burden to local governments. It didn't take long before some developers used them for their own gain.
Many people also don't understand that as the villages age the CDDs will issue new bonds to replace aging infrastructure and amenities.

[billethkid]

And I am sure the political "bent" of the Orlando Sentinal has nothing to do with their causess aimed at TV! :joke:

BTK :joke:

[Sidney Lanier]

Am I missing something?

1. Development districts that have used the equivalent of a municipal bond structure for the building of their infrastructure, including TV, are being investigated by the IRS to determine the legitimacy of their doing so. TV, being the biggest, as a result may get most of the attention (much like the STD issue of a year or two ago, an issue that exists in all such communities and likely similar percentage-wise though not numbers-wise).

2. Insofar as TV is concerned, any homeowner or potential homeowner or anyone else, for that matter, is free to self-educate: read whatever public information is available in terms of what the IRS is actually doing. I would guess that some of it must be publicly available.

3. Anyone is similarly free not to read it if not interested, which doesn't reflect on them in any way other than that they're not interested.

4. A columnist with the Orlando Sentinel has been writing opinion columns which are called 'commentaries' about this issue, self-admittedly not reported news. This is a job she is doing--for a paycheck.

5. People who are interested in these columns are free to read them.

6. People who are not interested in them are not obliged to read them.

What am I overlooking?...

[ijusluvit]

Good Idea gemorc.

May I suggest that when you get some information you start a new thread. Maybe something like: "REAL Bond Info"

Thanx

[KCinBAMA]

Good Idea gemorc.

May I suggest that when you get some information you start a new thread. Maybe something like: "REAL Bond Info"

Thanx


I wonder if it should be posted under "political"??

[Peachie]

Clifff, Zcaveman, Collie, Livesea, we're finally getting the drift here. We must let people, whom do not live in The Villages spit in our soup. Not advise us if the soup needs salt or something is missing but just spit in it. All posts I made have indicated we DO want the facts, not an Orlandoer's "personal commentary". We are whiners for wanting the details of this issue and not innuendo and a personal slant. It could be the war is being won, because The Villages is beginning to look less attractive. We are beginning to discuss selling our property in TV and advising others of the constant barrage of negative attitudes and attacks regarding Village homeownership and how the quality of life in The Villages may be undermined by outside and inside factors. You may be able to extract huge amounts of money from the developer, good luck with the results. We have planned carefully for our retirement and did not buy in a development we could not afford. We want this beautiful upscale, attractive lifestyle. And as Colllie pointed out, we could rent down here anytime very inexpensively and not listen to the harping. We're looking for peace and fun in our retirement lives because aging won't get any easier. The joy is being sucked out of this community by the continuing attacks without concrete reporting. It's a sad situation....

And Livesea, if someone is not of the same opinion as you, they are bigots? Where does namecalling get you?

[ladykathleen]

You are so right on Cliff and those who agree with you and with Laure Richie. Of course after I post this reply the usual posters ::) those who use this site as a "chat room" will so quickly and negatively reply to my post. , one reason I post so infrequently.
I care about my money, I am retired, on a fixed income and struggle in keeping enough of it to live day to day as a retired person. With Lauren's explanation of what the bonds really are and how they really operate I see we have been so taken advantage of by "these powers" by them using a state law created for them. This means I could daily have had more money to maybe take away the uncertainy of the future. On this same "vein" Hometown Democracy is not on the current "table" at the state level blocked by developers and construction. To whoever critized me for using "bold" I shall write as I please.

[graciegirl]

:edit:

[zcaveman]

It is not that I agree with L Richie. It is that she is offering a view of the bond issue that many of us know nothing about.

We can live in a bubble or we can at least understand where our bond money is going.

We buy a house and we are saddled with a bond outside of the price of the house. Currently, it is for $24,000 at 6% and is not tax deductible. With this $24,000 X the number of buyers, The Villages purchases the infrastructure and the rec centers , etc. After a time, The Villages sells the rec centers, etc to the CDDs. Then with a portion of our amenities fees we pay off the rec centers, etc that The Villages sold to us. Did not we already pay for the rec centers, etc with the $24,000 X the number of buyers? This is in addition to the annual fee that the CDDs are changing us via the non-valorum tax part of our property tax for maintenance - mowing, plants, and upkeep to keep these rec centers, etc operational.

All that L Richie is doing is telling us something that we should already know.

Personally I already knew this and am able to live with it.

Slamming us because we want to see the other side is not a win-win situation.

I definitely do not agree with some of the negative posts but think that some civility should rule.


In retrospect, I am sorry I even posted to this post. I tried to keep my fingers quiet but once L Richie gave an explanation and was still :edit: I figured I had to say something. She was not defending herself. Just explaining the facts. Please reread her post all the way through and you will see that.

[Alex]

Good post Zcaveman! Knowledge is power!
Many on here know nothing and knock people who try to educate them.
I would still pick this place for 3 months in the winter but then I have plenty of money.

[macgolfnut]

There are certain rights to which we, as Americans, are entitled. One of these is the freedom of speech, including differing opinions. Another is the freedom of the press to not only report the news, but to also express their opinions about what they see as right or wrong. I appreciate Ms Ritchie's commentary, which is not just opinion, but opinion supported by facts. If our only source of news and commentary is The Daily Sun then we will never read anything negative and we will be swayed by an unrealistic and biased point of view.

I have a house in The Villages and I absolutely love it there. I love the lifestyle, the people, the amenities, everything. It's a dream come true. However, there is a distinct possibility that we have paid more than we should have for this lifestyle. An uninformed citizen is an ignorant citizen, and I like to know all of the facts about where my money is going. I have worked too hard all of my life to have it taken away from me when it shouldn't be.

Peachie, you have always sounded like a fun person and I defend to the death your right to express your opinion, but would you please stop using "us" and "we" instead of "I" and "me." You do not speak for me and your responses make it sound like you speak for many, if not all of us. I do, however, agree with you about the renters.

ZCaveman and Sidney - thank you for your intelligent and objective responses.
Gracie - I love your comments. My wife and I live in Hadley as well. I can't wait to meet you.
LadyKathleen - Although I often agree with you, you come off as a really angry person. SMILE! ;D

Sorry everyone. I am really opinionated.

[Peachie]

Macgolfnut, I am a fun person... wanna come to my house? :redface: Oh wait, I'm married and that's why I use we and us in my later post and in an earlier post regarding journalistic style, I was referring to Graciegirl's distaste also for that tact. I wouldn't presume to speak for you, honestly . 024 My intention was to preserve the investment we, (oops), Mr. Peachie and I made in our home by asking for the truth about the bond issues. If you read the original newspaper articles posted by your appreciated Orlando poster, I think you will find it difficult not to see her slant. Only when she posted on the TOTV did she expound on the bond issues. And she advised that anyone who examined her Orlando motives was ignorant.

I, (see now I"m using I), ;D, (even though my husband has heard the same), when traveling in the Orlando area and furthur south, have heard disparaging remarks about The Villages being an adult "Disney World" and how people in The Villages are really being ripped off by the developer. I'm turning in my pom pom's for being a Villages cheerleader for the truth and will now follow your lead, and will try to adhere to your reasoning that The Villages is fair game for all the publicized personal comments from outsiders comparing us to little old ladies being taken by a carpetbagger. I have seen the light :o and now realize I don't need to be involved. Guess I'm off to drink the Koolaid and live in the bubble because I have someone who wouldn't like her father living here looking out for me. :bigthumbsup: The lesson has been learned that the bad developer is the only one to be scrutinized. Scrutinize away, more Koolaid anyone? :beer3:

[villages07]

The 'bonds' and our unusual form of local government are complex topics that require a fair amount of reading, study, and analysis to understand. I don't pretend to understand it all and read Ms Ritchie's articles as another perspective on things. I don't necessarily agree with all of her conclusions on how we got here and where it's heading.

The initial infrastructure bond associated with a new house is what it is and is defined as part of the cost of purchasing a house. The developer doesn't have to itemize how he came to that figure or the associated interest rate. It is disclosed up front.

The recreational bonds to purchase amenities/facilities are a different animal. As I've stated in other threads, the process by which the developer-appointed supervisors in the central commercial districts agree on a purchase price for a package of amenities seems inherently 'stacked' against the end consumer. Not only do they put a value on the physical property but also a value on the future revenue stream from amenity fees. The flip side of this though is that we, the homeowners, do no own the facilities. The facilities are owned by the commercial districts and we pay a "use" fee via our amenity fee. In another thread, I equated this to us being members of a fitness club where we pay a fee to use the facilities vs a homeowners condo association where we would own the facilities and pay fees to own, operate, and maintain them.

It's a complicated process, but, bottom line is you pay a monthly fee and for that you get 'free' golf, year round heated swimming pools, beautiful meeting halls, pickleball and tennis courts, bocce, numerous recreation-sponsored special events, etc. You know what your fee is and know increases are limited to the published change in the CPI. The unknown is when buildout is complete and for the decades after that will our amenities and facilities continue to be as beautiful and well maintained as they are today?

I come from a very high cost area (DC) and have been in TV for about 2 years. For me, TV and Florida living come at a very reasonable cost. For someone who has lived (on a fixed income) in TV for say 8-10 years, I'm sure things are looking pretty expensive. Home values (and property taxes) have gone way up, amenity fees have increased, utilities have increased, food, entertainment, etc. Yes, we pay a premium for our homes in TV because it is a desirable location. Just as you would pay more for a townhouse in the Georgetown section of DC vs what you would pay for the same house in the outermost suburbs. That's real estate.

Enough rambling for now. I plan to continue to read and absorb as much as I can about how TV works and get involved when and where necessary. It's not utopia but it's also not 1984 run by a mind-control big brother. (it's much closer to utopia!!!)

[livsea2]

A bigot is not someone who disagrees with my opinion. A bigot is �someone who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed or opinion� according to Webster�s.

Ms. Ritchie wrote an article in the newspaper including facts about the bond structure in the villages and opinion as to whether she thought it was fair to the villagers.

She was attacked as to her motives and bias. She voluntarily responded with the source of her facts, and where they could be obtained for your own verification. She further explained why it may seem to some that her paper was �picking on the villages� because of different editions that are published. She explained reasonably every fault that was nitpicked in her article. She was very forthcoming and even offered her email to discuss further with anyone that had more questions.

She was further attacked by some. That my dear is bigotry. If you look at my calling a spade a spade �name calling� so be it. I am merely holding up a mirror.

My opinion about the villages is still being formulated. I haven't yet decided if it is worth my while to purchase a home there. The first rule of real estate is that the value of a property is exactly equal to what someone else is willing to pay for it no more no less. So even though the homes seem over priced and the fees, bonds, and taxes seem high compared to other retirement communities I've visited, many seem more than willing to pay the price. I have stayed for a month and agree there is so much going on but despite some marketing spin it is not free by any stretch. Free golf for life is the biggest misnomer of all time. Golf is by no means free in the villages you just pay for it in other ways than greens fees.

Whether someone is willing to buy into the villages lifestyle is a personal choice. Do what you wish with your money. I know I will. Just don't attack those that try to present facts about certain issues there. If you made an ill informed decision when you bought that�s a shame. Just don�t deny my right to get as much information, good and bad, before I make my decision.

If you wish to �live in a bubble�, �drink the koolaid�, �be a cheerleader� great. Just stop the vicious attacks and bigotry against those trying to present information that�s contrary to your very biased opinion. (off my soap box now)

[gemorc]

I have followed this thread for 5 days. I have even posted a reply on the first day. On each succeeding day the responses have become more intense and hateful. Nothing is being accomplished by all the name calling. Most of us on this forum, used it to help make a decision on whether to move here or not, me included. You don't have to live here to form an opinion on TV.

After this latest episode in TOTV courtesy, I am no longer going to contribute to this forum.