OUR STORY: Bldg./Warranty Depts./Utility Co./VHA/Dist. Admin. YOU DECIDE....

[Sidney Lanier]

It's a long story that I'll make as brief as I can, and I will not use names as my interactions were with the roles people occupy....

We bought a 3-1/2 year old resale last fall and left TV immediately following the closing, were back briefly over Christmas/New Year's, and didn't return till February, having spent the month of January in South America. By that point we had received two water bills--and something didn't look right. I took the two bills to the North Sumter Utility Company, where an employee took one look and said, more or less, 'Holy cow!' I said, 'Something didn't look right to me too; what's the story?' She explained that the bills showed that we were using 30,000 gallons of sprinkler water each month, in contrast to the typical usage for a property like ours which should have been 4-5,000 gallons. 'Holy cow!' indeed! She also checked back into the records and told me that although she couldn't give me copies of the previous owner's records for privacy reasons--understandable--she did assure me that astronomical sprinkler water bills on the account went back to the very first bill, at that point nearly 4 years earlier! She also immediately sent a serviceman to check the system, who examined everything and told us that the control box wasn't set for significant overwatering and that the meter was functioning properly.

I contacted TV to find out if I could get a diagram of the sprinkler system and learned that the company that had installed it at the time the house was built was still working in TV and that I should call them for further information. (I had nightmarish visions of tearing up the concrete driveway....) I reached a man who sounded extremely knowledgeable and made an appointment for him to come, figure out what was wrong, and repair it. It took him a few minutes to figure out where to dig, dug up I would say no more than 2 or 3 shovelfuls of soil, reached into the ground and pulled out a sprinkler line that had just ended in the ground, with no sprinkler head attached to it and obviously no remains of a sprinkler head broken off. It had just been left loose in the ground, apparently overlooked by the original installer of the system, meaning that whenever that sprinkler zone was on, the water simply ran as though from the end of a hose and allowed no pressure for the rest of the sprinkler heads on that zone!!! All that was needed was screwing in a sprinkler head and setting it at ground level where it belonged--and the problem was fixed! Our next-door neighbors, who are the original owners of their home and who do their own gardening, validated that there had NEVER been a sprinkler head in that location.

With the feeling that I was dealing with an original construction defect, I contacted the head of the Utility Company and, on principle, asked for an adjustment in our two months of water bill, more as an acknowledgment that the problem went back to the time that the house was built. My first email, though not returned to me, didn't elicit a response; my second one elicited an apology about not having received the first email, followed by an explanation that as far as the Utility Company was concerned, if the water had passed through our meter and the meter wasn't shown to be defective, then no adjustment was possible and the bill is mine. I did mention to her that I was troubled that no employee processing payments and/or nothing in their software would notice and kick out an exception when a house was using SIX TIMES the amount of water than it should have been.... She then suggested that I contact the Warranty Department, which I did.

Contacting the Warranty Department, I was assigned an examiner who was basically impossible to reach; other than leaving him a message, I had to wait for him to contact me, and he was polite to a fault. I made it clear that I had asked for an adjustment in the 2 months of irrigation water bills only because of a principle--that this was a defect that existed from the time of construction and had resulted from an error in construction, and that an acknowledgment of this would have been more than enough. Briefly put, he stuck to the 'party line' of the 1 year warranty, and our home was at that time nearly 4 years old. I attempted to explain to him that a defect created by a subcontractor of the developer hardly seemed to fall into the same category as a problem that first developed when the home was 4 years old, but it was pointless as he kept repeating the 1 year warranty 'mantra.' I finally said that although the previous owners were out of the picture, based on this construction defect created by the developer's subcontractor installing one line of the sprinkler system incorrectly, the developer's pockets were certainly much enriched by the astronomical water bills paid by the frail, less than competent, 90-year-old previous owners for 3-1/2 years.

Wow! Did the politeness disappear fast! For those who remember that part of U.S. history having to do with 'circling the wagons,' something the westward pioneers did when attacked by Native American warriors who objected to the settlers simply taking their land, this member of the Warranty Department jumped down my throat, making it clear that the developer had nothing to do with the utility company, that the latter is an independent autonomous organization with no relation to the developer, and that the developer is blameless and faultless. Not knowing whether this ownership question is true or not, I had no choice but to accept the statement--not that it changes anything from the original issue.

Around this time I received a phone call from the head of the Building Department for all of TV. He too was polite but with a real edge in his voice, telling me unequivocally--and essentially--'The original owners were told that they could get full instructions on the operations of the irrigation system and get all their questions answered during the first month of home ownership, and if they didn't do it, tough luck!' In other words, the 1 year warranty had now dropped to 1 month on the sprinkler system, and he assiduously defended the developer in this arrangement. The bottom line is that there does NOT exist anything along the lines of goodwill to a Villages resident and honesty in acknowledging the error made by the subcontractor. I asked him if it was still within the purview of the rep from the Warranty Department to make his own determination based on such goodwill factors, to which he replied 'of course,' that he didn't dictate to the Warranty Department reps. However, at the time of my final contact with the latter after this conversation, the rep told me that the head of the Building Department had already made the final decision. Hmmm....

Lest the question come up as to whether this was really an original construction defect rather than a problem that developed after the warranty period, this can be affirmed in 3 independent ways: (1) the utility company employee stated unequivocally that the irrigation water bills on the house had been astronomically high from the very first bill at the time the house had been built; (2) I watched the repair as it was done and plainly saw that the open line had been left in the ground; and (3) the neighbor affirmed that there had never been a sprinkler in that location after the repair was done.

Silly me, still feeling that there was an injustice done, I decided to write one more email to all parties concerned, but I could not find an email address for either the Building Department or the Warranty Department. I posted a thread on TOTV asking if anyone had email addresses for these two offices. One TOTV member known to be knowledgeable responded to me, suggesting that whatever I send, I should send a copy to the District Administrator for The Villages, explaining that this is an extremely conscientious individual who would surely have the courtesy and take the time to respond and perhaps offer suggestions. I did this, and though this email was never returned to me as 'undeliverable,' I never heard back from this individual.

Then, as a member of a neighborhood association, our email address is on a mass mailing list, and we received an email from our VHA representative asking if there were any issues that residents felt needed addressing. I decided to respond with this whole story, and I received a response back very quickly. Because it struck me as, well, I'm not sure how to describe it, I will copy portions from the response and paste them here:

"We are fortunate to have a developer that not only lives here, but is very concerned about the problems that arise and remains involved in its ongoing success. Because of this, I often hear that residents think the family should be our 'daddy' and take
care of all our problems and issues without any cost or responsibility to us. If you purchased a home in a Del Webb community or in any other development (whether a retirement community or not), do you honestly think that the parent company that developed the area would fix a problem discovered at the time of the resale of the home if it was no longer covered by the initial warranty?"

When I emailed back this this response seemed very strange in light of my explanation that this was NOT a warranty problem that evolved and became evident at the time of resale but was a issue that existed from the time of construction that unfortunately didn't come to light because of the confusion of the very elderly and shaky original owners until new owners realized that something was wrong. Here is the next response:

"Please understand that I constantly get the criticism about the owners of the development group. It quite often sounds like a teenager ranting that his parents would not
buy him a new car, even though they can afford it - hence my reference to 'daddy' since that appears to be the role many people in The Villages feel the Morse family should play. I have been told that they make too much money - well thank God for that! I don't know a corporation in this world who would continue to build, maintain and provide services if they were losing money!"

Then followed an apology from this VHA rep for such a strident response and an acknowledgment that our sprinkler problem going back to its original installation did not fall into the category of expecting 'daddy' to buy us a new car. The rep further explained that "My duties as a representative of our neighborhood for the VHA is to be a conduit of information from the CDD & developer and a voice to them of problems and concerns from the neighborhood." At that point I clearly understood that the VHA is a shill for the developer and is an organization that does many wonderful things for TV as a whole--those supported by the developer, that is--but in being "a representative of our neighborhood" [emphasis mine], there is a focus on the larger community but no support, for example, for individuals dealing with a problem such as ours. I will add that subsequently this individual did make an effort to follow through, but to no avail.

Maybe this is utterly naive on my part, but I come from the Harry S Truman philosophy of 'the buck stops here!' By this the president undertook and accepted responsibility for the errors committed by those under his authority. In our situation, what I mean is that the irrigation system subcontractor may have created the problem, but likely he reported to the house constructor, who in turn reported to the Building Department, who ultimately (however many levels of hierarchy there are) brings the responsibility to the head of the entire operation, that is, the developer. This is not to say that the developer literally overlooked installing a sprinkler head that resulted in long-term implications, but rather that the ultimate responsibility lies with him as he continues his efforts to develop this fine community.

Two things impress me: (1) There is not a job description within TV for those positions dealing with individual homeowner issues that has the latitude to include compassion, understanding, goodwill, exceptions based on, well, exceptional circumstances. (2) EVERY job description includes the requirement to participate in 'circling the wagons' as previously explained when issues such as ours arises. I am not one to knock the developer, nor am I one to be envious of his financial successes, and I have had occasion on other threads to say so. The developer took the vision of 'our founding father,' Harold Schwartz, was willing to invest his money and energies in furthering this vision, and the result is a uniquely marvelous community of which most of us are very happy to be members. (I say 'most' because there are always a small minority who are chronically and constantly unhappy no matter where they are because their unhappiness is from within....)

What do you think?

[diskman]

Sidney, That is one heck of a story. Curious how much in $ is a 3,000 gallon bill?
One would think that the water company acknowledging they knew there had to be a problem would illicit some type of discount from them! :dontknow:

[rshoffer]

Here's what I think: It appears that any problem identified AFTER the one year warrenty is up, no matter if it is a construction defect will not be repaired or compensated for. All the powers that be will hide behind contractual legaleese and caring /compassion/fairness will play NO role in the outcome.

[villages07]

Sidney,

Interesting tale....of course, it never should have gotten this far. The original owners should have known that their irrigation usage bills were way out of line. But, they didn't, and they grossly overpaid for years.

Yes, the irrigation system only has a 30 day warranty and this is in the documents given to a new home buyer. You might have gotten some satisfaction with an installation defect within the first year, but, 4 years later I can understand why they have to dig in their heels just on principle...or, people would be coming after them for all kinds of problems and even wear and tear items. Still, it would have been satisfying if the warranty department, original irrigation contractor, or water company had admitted that there was a problem but was now well beyond any responsibility on their part to remedy it.

The response of your VHA rep was pretty childish.... really the VHA should not get involved in these kind of individual disputes with the developer over building issues. But, he/she should have given you either an understanding ear and/or pointed you in another direction.

Thanks for sharing your tale....this, along with another recent thread about irrigation system walkthrough, should be a warning to new homeowners to pay attention to the system and their water usage early on.

[Russ_Boston]

SL - Good story for the rest of us who haven't bought yet. I don't think I'd ever check the previous water bills before I bought the house but maybe now I will.

As far as the warranty dept. being responsible for repair - I'd so no. There has to be some time limitation to repairs. What if you were the type that turned off your system to be 'green' on water use but 5 years from now you wanted to reinvent your green grass? Should it extend that long? What if the builder forgot a cable outlet in a room but you never noticed it until you went to use it 10 years later? I know you're not a Morse attacker like some others so your story has merit but this is my opinion.

My question would be: If you had hired a home inspector when you purchased and they missed this (which I would think they would), would their warranty apply?

Another question: Where was the water from the line going that it wouldn't be noticed? No soft ground or other noticebale effect?

[nitehawk]

Bldg./Warranty Depts./Utility Co./VHA/Dist. Admin - 1 Final Score
Sidney Lanier - 0

[JohnN]

Holy Cow is right. I'm amazed but unsurprised.
In the current world when there is a confusing issue, companies seldom stand up and take accountability on principle but tend to point fingers and pass the buck.

The utility company should have a means to monitor extreme usage. The developer should take responsibility for an obvious construction defect (ie: siding). Yet, they have the "law" on their side so to speak.

FYI, I had a similarly aggravating dealing with Southern Lifestyles (and I know the women love that place) which is owned by TV. Something was screwed up, they said "too bad" and contractually they were right, I guess *shrug*.

I'm glad you caught it pretty quickly. Good luck on getting action.

[collie1228]

Sidney, that's a well written description of a sad situation.

I'm no lawyer, but I do deal with legal issues on a daily basis. While my business is not real estate or construction, I do occasionally have to deal with "latent defects". Here is the first sentence of the definition of "latent defects" in Wikipedia:

"In the law of the sale of property (both real estate and personal property or chattels) a latent defect is a fault in the property that could not have been discovered by a reasonably thorough inspection before the sale."

You should Google "latent defects" to get a more thorough understanding, but generally, a latent defect is a defect that cannot be discovered by a reasonable inspection at the time of purchase (i.e., the defect is underground and you would have to destroy your lawn to gain access for the inspection). On its face, your situation looks an awful lot like a latent defect. To my knowledge, there is no general time limitation on when you must discover a latent defect, but obviously Florida law should be checked, and also obviously, you would need to get an attorney involved, but it seems to me that this situation could be resolved in your favor, depending on how Florida law covers latent defects. You might also have a problem with the fact that you weren't the original purchaser of the home. Quite possibly your complaint might have to be lodged against your seller, who would have to lodge a complaint against the developer. As I said, I'm not an attorney.

Good luck - it appears that you would have to be prepared to take this all the way to the courtroom to get the developer's attention. A time consuming and expensive proposition.

[JohnN]

or small claims court if not a large amount of $$$. I've had success using that venue.

[samhass]

Sid, I would pay the plumber and move on. I know it seems unfair, but to pursue litigation would be time and cost consuming. My carpets that are less than 2 years old are buckling up all over. I have had to pay to get them restretched. When I called the carpet installer I remarked on the "cheap" carpet. She got defensive and said the carpet in my home is quite expensive. It may be expensive, but it is stretching out in most rooms. When it gets dirty,(it is creamy white) I'll have it all ripped up and hardwood put down in its place. So..watch your carpets carefully and call before the year is out. Mine started to buckle in about 15 months.

[drdodge]

You should have done due diligence which you did not due. When buying property one should have an inspection done and if they missed it their insurance would cover the problem,also when buying property one should ask to see utility bills and tax bills to see if they look ok,if not thats the time to complain.
drd

[784caroline]

Sidney
I can understand your pain but you cannot let your emotions impact your reasoning and decision making. You have 2 things against you...you are out of warranty and you are not the original owner. Very few homes are perfect when first occupied and I believe the developer has a very good and commendable record of fixing anything identified as a problem within the first year AND will even come back and fix something that was identified during the first year but reoccurred after the warranty period expired. Add to this the fact that you never had a relationship with the builder, I would think you have a weak arguement. As others have said this could have eben identified during your home inspection or due dilligence on your part in simply asking for utility records prior to your purchase..and it would have been obvious if the bills were as outrageous as you have described.
NOW a friend of ours recently had a simialr situation as yours. They bought a Premiere home in 2005 and just sold it in August 2008 (Last month). The new buyer had a home inspector come through and they found that the home only had 4 inches of insulation in the attic rather than the required 8-10 inches. The new buyer placed the onus on the seller to get the problem fixed and the seller went back to TV Warranty to correct a "latent Defect" in the construction of the home even though the house was more than 3 years old. The Village inspector came by and agreed with the home insection report and had additional insulation blown in at no cost to the seller. SO these problems are resolved on a case by case basis (with my example comming out in favor of the original home buyer) but I think you not being the original buyer from the Developer does have an impact on the outcome.

[Don H]

If there is only a 30 day warranty on the irrigation system and YOU were the original owner you would still be out of luck. Look at it this way. You move into the new home and the clock starts ticking. You will probably not receive a water bill until well after that one month warranty has expired. Hence, even if you were the original owner you still would not realize there was a problem until after you got the bill and by then the warranty has expired. Man....nothing like catch 22! AND...only a 30 day warranty on something as big as an entire irrigation system for your property?? Sounds like it was "no win" from day one.

[graciegirl]

There should be a longer than 30 day warrenty on an irrigation system. The utility company here would have caught it and signaled the owner. Don't sue. You always lose money and what are you going to prove.

[Sidney Lanier]

Thanks for your thoughts and comments, everyone!

diskman:
It was 30,000, not 3,000 gallons. Actually the very first bill showed usage of 33,450 gallons and the total charge for irrigation water on that bill was $87.05 (which includes basic charges for having the account). By contrast, our most recent bill (several months after the repair) was $12.50 for 4,680 gallons. As I mentioned in my post, I was surprised--and told the head of the utility company--that there was nothing in place, whether human or computer software, to flag such out-of-line bills, but there wasn't.

rshoffer:
You're absolutely right! Given the choice of doing the decent thing or sticking to what I called 'the 1 year warranty mantra,' their job describes requires the latter. Too bad....

villages07:
Yes, it was really unfortunate for the previous owners who as I explained were 90 years old at the time they sold and moved into assisted living, he with several strokes and she asking us who we were every time we saw her. The house was actually owned by their 'family trust' which presumably also paid the bills routinely, and I can understand how it might not cross anyone's mind that there was anything wrong with the bill since those doing the paying would have had no basis for comparison. If you will look at what I wrote in the thread about the irrigation system walkthrough, you'll understand now why I wrote what I did....

Russ:
One of the reasons I've gone through all the trouble of writing this is to alert present and future homeowners here of this very remote possibility: a missing sprinkler head with a line running nonstop underground. I did not expect TV to pay for the repair; as I mentioned, the sellers did so honorably. More than anything I hoped for an acknowledgment of responsibility, silly thinking on my part, I guess, more a reflection of myself than TV management. The home inspector did note the diminished pressure in that zone but had no way to say what was causing it.

nitehawk:
Literally speaking, you're right: 1-0. But also as I explained, I was raised with--and I live by--a different ethic. I don't feel as though I've lost anything, though on the other hand I would guess that the Villages employees and management I dealt with may think that they've 'won.' I'm left with integrity; they're left with, well, I'm not sure what, maybe a couple hundred dollars.

JohnN:
I'm unsurprised too. Initially I was not cynical (I am not inherently cynical...) and actually thought that the outcome could have been different; it didn't take me long to realize how naive that thinking was. I'm not 'seeking action,' and for me small claims court would be a continuance of using my energies fruitlessly; I learned what I needed to from the experience and am sharing it with my fellow TOTVers, potential TOTVers, and others.

collie1228:
Same here; it just isn't worth my while in the greater scheme of things in my life to pursue an examination of 'latent defects.' Dollar-wise we're talking about maybe $200. My integrity is worth more than that, and their integrity, or lack of same, is not my business or my problem.

samhass:
We paid for the repair when it was done in February, and the sellers, having said that they would do so, reimbursed us (and not knowing about the egregious overbilling they had been victimized by for 3-1/2 years, nor would we tell them, especially at their age and in their poor health). As I explained above, we have long since moved on with our lives and are busy and happy. And again, one of the primary reasons I've written this is to alert fellow homeowners in TV of the possibility, though very remote, that the same mistake could have been made on another house.

drdodge:
You're right, I 'should have done due diligence' and didn't. We did have the house inspected, and the inspector did note that something was not right with that irrigation zone, though he couldn't be sure what it was. On top of this, we were away at the time the first water bill came, and we take responsibility for that too. However, I am not comfortable with a 'blame the victim' approach, and I'm disinclined to allow myself to be/feel like a victim. I know that I did what I could, and in the end I let go of the whole business. I can only hope that my experience can benefit even one other villager....

[golfnut]

If the inspector notified you of reduced pressure in that zone shouldn't you have done something right then? Seems like that would have been the right time to pursue it, isn't that what you pay them for?

[chuckinca]

Sidney, that's a well written description of a sad situation.

I'm no lawyer, but I do deal with legal issues on a daily basis. While my business is not real estate or construction, I do occasionally have to deal with "latent defects". Here is the first sentence of the definition of "latent defects" in Wikipedia:

"In the law of the sale of property (both real estate and personal property or chattels) a latent defect is a fault in the property that could not have been discovered by a reasonably thorough inspection before the sale."

You should Google "latent defects" to get a more thorough understanding, but generally, a latent defect is a defect that cannot be discovered by a reasonable inspection at the time of purchase (i.e., the defect is underground and you would have to destroy your lawn to gain access for the inspection). On its face, your situation looks an awful lot like a latent defect. To my knowledge, there is no general time limitation on when you must discover a latent defect, but obviously Florida law should be checked, and also obviously, you would need to get an attorney involved, but it seems to me that this situation could be resolved in your favor, depending on how Florida law covers latent defects. You might also have a problem with the fact that you weren't the original purchaser of the home. Quite possibly your complaint might have to be lodged against your seller, who would have to lodge a complaint against the developer. As I said, I'm not an attorney.

Good luck - it appears that you would have to be prepared to take this all the way to the courtroom to get the developer's attention. A time consuming and expensive proposition.





I agree with the above by Collie.

Further, the sprinkler system probably required a pressure test witnessed and signed off by a county inspector as part of the building permit. It wouldn't pass a pressure test with an open end. I would ask TV and county building inspection dept for a copy of the permit sign off.

You're retired and have the time to mess with this injustice - - - go get em!

[SteveFromNY]

Sidney - regardless of the how it all came to be, and the question of fault, the end result sounds to me like this:
There was a problem with the sprinkler system that is now fixed (for free, correct?).
You have a liability for a few months of water bills resulting from this situation.
I'm not sure of what the real impact here is - your normal water bill is say $100, and your bills were $500 or $600? So that makes the issue an $800 to a $1000 problem (2 months, right?).
Since the irrigation company fixed the problem once they learned of it, I'm not sure what more they can be on the hook. Was there a "true-up" at closing where the water bill was settled for the balance of the days you owned into the next billing cycle? If there was then you should probably have seen the high amount then, and done something about it.
I believe the problem lies more with the former owners than with the builder. To have thrown away hundreds of dollars a month on a really high water bill - well it should have raised an eyebrow and they (the former owner) should have questioned it.
And assuming that someone would step up and pay the outrageous bill, should they be liable for more than one month's worth? It's not their fault you were away.
So maybe, if all the stars aligned, someone would give you the difference between a regular bill and your normal bill for one month? So we're now talking $400 to $500. Is that worth the trouble of suing? Here in NY we have a small claims court where for $20 an individual can bring action against anyone for anything up to $5000. It's easy to do, and you don't need an atty. Not sure about FL, but it would seem to me you can do one of three things:
Pay the bill and move on.
Pay the bill, and sue the original owner for their stupidity (not sure how that gets worded in a lawsuit), and $800.
Pay the bill and sue the sprinkler co/builder for $800

I seriously doubt you'll get anything but more aggravation as a result. And at the end of it all, the water did pass thru the meter,so the water company is right to bill you for it (even though they should have noticed, maybe).

I think you're pretty well stuck. Too much time, and one too many owners to get the kind of satisfaction you deserve.

Would you have paid another $800 for the house? Cough it up, think of it as part of the the price of the house, and move on. That'd be what I'd advise.

[golfnut]

Steve, I think the extra water $ is less than $200. $87.05 - $12.50 = 74.55, for 2 months I believe.

[SteveFromNY]

Steve, I think the extra water $ is less than $200. $87.05 - $12.50 = 74.55, for 2 months I believe.


All the more reason to move on and learn a lesson.

[Sidney Lanier]

SteveFromNY (and BTW, we're from NY too and as snowbirds are still back and forth): The amount is small--no more than $200 and likely a bit less--and I have long since asked myself how much impact this minuscule amount will have over the course of our lives and answered 'zilch.' The sellers did pay for the repair as they had promised to do so, and considering how much they had been victimized because of the mistake made by the irrigation system installer (yes, granted they allowed it through their own frailty and lack of awareness stemming from advanced age and poor health), the idea of suing these honorable people is beyond our consideration. We paid the water bill months ago and, after observing the machinations of everyone 'passing the buck' rather than 'the buck stops here' which looking back I would almost think I did out of curiosity to see where it would go, we walked away from the issue other than finally posting the story, as I said, in the hopes that it would bring this remote possibility to the awareness of TV newcomers and others. The money is the least of it, I did indeed learn many things that make the story worth sharing, and we've long since moved on. Thanks!

[SteveFromNY]

SteveFromNY (and BTW, we're from NY too and as snowbirds are still back and forth): The amount is small--no more than $200 and likely a bit less--and I have long since asked myself how much impact this minuscule amount will have over the course of our lives and answered 'zilch.' The sellers did pay for the repair as they had promised to do so, and considering how much they had been victimized because of the mistake made by the irrigation system installer (yes, granted they allowed it through their own frailty and lack of awareness stemming from advanced age and poor health), the idea of suing these honorable people is beyond our consideration. We paid the water bill months ago and, after observing the machinations of everyone 'passing the buck' rather than 'the buck stops here' which looking back I would almost think I did out of curiosity to see where it would go, we walked away from the issue other than finally posting the story, as I said, in the hopes that it would bring this remote possibility to the awareness of TV newcomers and others. The money is the least of it, I did indeed learn many things that make the story worth sharing, and we've long since moved on. Thanks!


Glad to hear it! Thanks for posting as it is a good lesson for the rest of us.

Where in NY? We're in Staten Island.

[krys]

Sidney -

Thanks for taking the time to tell your tale of woe.

It will go on our growing list of "things" of which to be aware.

I am very surprised, since I believe the area is in a drought condition, that the utility company didn't pay - ANY - attention to water usage that was 6 to 10 times what is probable 'normal' usage (3,000/5,000 gallons versus 30,000 gallons).

Krys

[sandybill2]

thanks for your posting. I am sure it will give newcomers a heads-up and something to look for. We bought last Sept- never had irrigation system but noticed on our first two bills that we were paying into the "2nd tier" charge for residential irrigation--using 12,000--11,000. My husband checked our irrigation system and found one sprinkler head had been broken off ; therefore, whenever the system was on it was just like a hose running the entire time. At least there was a connection for a sprinkler--unlike your story.

One thing he just noticed is that on our gas water heater, there is no pressure release valve. He checked our neighbors heaters and they all seem to have a valve. There is a plug in the hole where it says to install pressure release valve. Who do you think we should contact about this? The plumbers that installed it--according to our list--was Tinney. I am assuming that is a company name. We could not find it in our phone book.

[chuckinca]

thanks for your posting. I am sure it will give newcomers a heads-up and something to look for. We bought last Sept- never had irrigation system but noticed on our first two bills that we were paying into the "2nd tier" charge for residential irrigation--using 12,000--11,000. My husband checked our irrigation system and found one sprinkler head had been broken off ; therefore, whenever the system was on it was just like a hose running the entire time. At least there was a connection for a sprinkler--unlike your story.

One thing he just noticed is that on our gas water heater, there is no pressure release valve. He checked our neighbors heaters and they all seem to have a valve. There is a plug in the hole where it says to install pressure release valve. Who do you think we should contact about this? The plumbers that installed it--according to our list--was Tinney. I am assuming that is a company name. We could not find it in our phone book.




If you get a run around - got to home depot and buy a PRV for about 15 bucks and install it yourselves.

Turn off the hot water heater
Shut the water supply valve.
Open a hot water valve in kitchen or bath to release pressure.
Remove the plug.
Install the PRV - use teflon tape on the threads.
Install plastic pipe from the PRV discharge to the floor or better discharge location
open the water supply valve and check the prv threads for leakage
open the water discharge valve
start up the water heater
run like hell (LOL)

[sandybill2]

If you get a run around - got to home depot and buy a PRV for about 15 bucks and install it yourselves.

Turn off the hot water heater
Shut the water supply and discharge valves.
slowly open the plug to release the pressure.
install the PRV - use teflon tape on the threads.
Install plastic pipe from the PRV discharge to the floor or better discharge location
open the water supply valve and check the prv threads for leakage
open the water discharge valve
start up the water heater
run like hell (LOL)

thanks for the advice. I''m hoping this would be the last resort. We called our "home inspector" and asked him about the lack of pressure valve. He said he would be back by to take another look at it. He would either take care of it===but he said if you call the home warranty dept---I guarantee they will be out in less than 15 minutes. I should tell you we purchased a home built in 2004---we are the 4th owner and the only owners to live here full time.

[Sidney Lanier]

We called our "home inspector" and asked him about the lack of pressure valve. He said he would be back by to take another look at it. He would either take care of it===but he said if you call the home warranty dept---I guarantee they will be out in less than 15 minutes. I should tell you we purchased a home built in 2004---we are the 4th owner and the only owners to live here full time.


Hi sandybill, thanks for your earlier PM.

I had little expectation from the Warranty Dept after our debacle with the missing sprinkler head. However, our next-door neighbor recently realized that his water heater was lacking an expansion tank, and even though the house is also, like yours and ours, four years old, they came quickly as that is an actual safety violation, and the original plumber was back installing their expansion tank. I inquired as well and was shown that our tank was in the wall rather than on the heater itself. Chuckinca's instructions are clear and simple--I've done it at our home in NY (and you don't really have to run like he**!)--but why not at least ask TV's Warranty Dept to do it?

And yes, ours was a sprinkler line buried in the ground that had NEVER had a sprinkler head attached. It's hard to imagine that 25,000 gallons of water would run underground and go unnoticed for 3-1/2 years, but the soil is sandy and apparently not prone to sinkholes.... Unless one has a really large property, one generally shouldn't be in the second tier of irrigation water, given the current water restrictions; ours was in the third and would have been in the fourth had there been a fourth (third is the highest, so far as I know)! It's also worth checking each zone individually via the control box to see if the watering times and day are appropriate. Other neighbors of ours once got a snippy note left by the 'water police' that they were watering on the wrong day!

[Sidney Lanier]

Thanks for taking the time to tell your tale of woe.

It will go on our growing list of "things" of which to be aware.

I am very surprised, since I believe the area is in a drought condition, that the utility company didn't pay - ANY - attention to water usage that was 6 to 10 times what is probable 'normal' usage (3,000/5,000 gallons versus 30,000 gallons).

Krys



Krys, that was one of the most disturbing things that came out of our whole experience (the only thing worse being the extent of victimization of the original frail owners for 3-1/2 years by whoever is responsible, since no one is willing to admit to being so...), and one of the primary reasons that I knew I had to take the time to post this story, is that the utility company did NOTHING to flag situations like ours where water usage was extraordinarily and inappropriately high. After all, this can be built into their billing software, and even if not, a human being somewhere has to be processing payments....

[diskman]

Sidney,
I guess you could thank the lord it was recycled water. Could you imagine what 30,000 gallons of drinking water would cost! :cus:

[JohnN]

utility company not monitoring nor noticing extreme water usage -
again, amazed but unsurprised.

I've noticed so many companies do not have very good internal controls nor monitoring, it's scary - and costly.

[zcaveman]

Sidney: Thanks for the input. I have added a line entry to my Things to Think About When Moving to the Villages covering warranties with a special mention of the sprinkler system 30 day warranty. I will be posting the new list today.

[Sidney Lanier]

zcaveman:
That's a great idea--to include it in your list! Sorry, I should have thought of it myself and sent you a PM. Whatever, as long as it gets publicized.

Potential newbies and newbies:
Be sure to read zcaveman's posts on his Things to Think about When Moving to The Villages! It's an absolutely valuable resource and the most comprehensive source of 'what to do and how to do it' that I've ever seen not only here in TV but in any context!

EVERYONE (potential newbies, newbies, and even existing residents):
When you get here--or if you are here already--it would be well worth your while to monitor your sprinkler system. The control box is a bit complicated but can be figured out; if you're in new construction you can get TV to walk through its operations with you, as well as how the zones themselves work, during that 30-day warranty period. And it's important to remember to replace the 9-volt back-up battery periodically; otherwise, in the event of a power outage, you can lose your settings. Be vigilant; it's yet another 'caveat'!

[Sidney Lanier]

utility company not monitoring nor noticing extreme water usage -
again, amazed but unsurprised.

I've noticed so many companies do not have very good internal controls nor monitoring, it's scary - and costly.


Unrelated story but a whole different management attitude: We have friends up north who were away for a week or two in the middle of winter. The oil company delivery truck came to fill their oil tank, and the driver noticed a sound coming from inside the house. He contacted the local police, who came, heard the same sound, broke in, and found that a pipe had frozen and started leaking. The police contacted a local plumber, had the repair done, had the oil company service department come back and check the heating system (which was fine), and secured the house after everything was attended to.

Our friends came home and were upset at what had happened--and at the same time were flabbergasted and delighted at the conscientiousness of the oil delivery driver who could easily have done his delivery, gotten into his truck, and driven on to his next stop. Instead he had taken the time to do what he did. When our friends contacted him to express their gratitude, he explained that it was something he would do anyway; however, his manager routinely instructs drivers to take a minute or two to scan the house, especially if it's noticeable that the house is unoccupied (snow on the front walk, no tire tracks coming and going, etc.), and to act on it if he perceives anything out of the ordinary.

A whole different management practice....




I guess you could thank the lord it was recycled water. Could you imagine what 30,000 gallons of drinking water would cost! :cus:



Indeed! (Actually about 30,000 times 2.5 months until we finally got the repair done....) And imagine where that water would have gone....

[chuckster]

I gather frome the foregoing, when buying a resale check all utility bills for the past 6 - 12 months and compare them with comparable homes. ;D

[Sidney Lanier]

I gather frome the foregoing, when buying a resale check all utility bills for the past 6 - 12 months and compare them with comparable homes. ;D


Very well put, chuckster! It's something that never occurred to us to do, and based on our experience we hope that others will do so. As was pointed out in an earlier post to this thread, which I recognized, I didn't practice due diligence (not that, IMHO, this absolves whoever in TV management should be taking responsibility from acknowledging the construction error...).

[molddude]

I am not an attorney either, but I do inspections in MD and have fought many a builder. I have had to go back on builders after the warranty period. The way I have won is by showing that a "reasonable discovery" had just taken place and the warranty period begins at that point. ie I lived in a home for 5 years when I had to replace a speaker in the wall. I found missing insulation, big time, and when I mentioned the "discovery that could not be found by a reasonable inspection" and mentioned the county inspection folks, they came right out and rebuilt the entire wall

good luck

Marty

[EdV]

Warranty or no warranty, if the defect involves a code violation, you can usually get it corrected if you take the right approach.

After living in my new condo for nearly 4 years, the toilet suddenly backed up and I immediately called a drain cleaning service. They unclogged the drain but then pointed out that they would not be able to warranty the work because the problem was due to a faulty installation where a 4 inch sewage drain pipe was connected to a 3 inch pipe (on the downstream side) and that is a code violation.

After getting nowhere with the original builder and the plumbing subcontractor that did the work, I called the local town plumbing inspector. He asked me to take pictures and email them to him. A few days later he was out to personally inspect the work and noted that there was no record of the work being signed off by the town.

When I told him about my difficulty getting the plumber to respond, he said that wouldn�t be a problem for him because if the plumber tried that little avoidance trick, he�d be contacting the State Licensing Board on the Town�s behalf.

Needless to say, within a week or two the original plumber arrived with an assistant and by the end of the day, the entire faulty plumbing was replaced and I�ve had no problem since.

[Sidney Lanier]

Warranty or no warranty, if the defect involves a code violation, you can usually get it corrected if you take the right approach.



Your situation of a 4" toilet drain going into a 3" pipe is pretty obvious as a code violation, which was not the case in our situation. For us, the bottom line was that the issue of the missing sprinkler head was never addressed by anyone. It was not even considered a construction defect! The premises of the powers-that-be in TV (who if push had come to shove could always deny that the sprinkler head was missing from day one) was that there was a warranty period, that period had passed, and that was the end of the discussion.

Had hundreds of homes in TV had missing sprinkler heads and there was a lawsuit won by the homeowners, as with the siding issue, then legally it would have to have been addressed by the developer, long after the warranty period, because then it would have been mandated by the court rather than out of any goodness of heart or goodwill or whatever one may term it. Apparently legal action would be the only way to get an issue like this addressed. It didn't help to be the lone voice with this problem, and fortunately for us it was not a serious problem. It's really best left as it is with our having learned that this is what I can expect from any/all offices within TV management.

Again, it's our hope that if there is another villager with this problem, our posting might help him or her become aware of it.

[EdV]

Your situation of a 4" toilet drain going into a 3" pipe is pretty obvious as a code violation.....

Well maybe to you it is, but it wasn't to me until it was pointed out by the plumber who came to unclog the blockage that caused a major backup in my home.

And I wasn't trying to compare my particular problem to yours. I was addressing the issue of the applicability of a warranty on any defect which is discovered after a warranty expires but could be proven to have resulted from an installation code violation.

Although it doesn't apply to your situation, the information I provided could be helpful to an owner encountering a faulty installation in which the installer hides behind the warranty.

[Sidney Lanier]

You're absolutely right, EdVinMass, and an important point for all of us to be conscious of. Thanks!


I was addressing the issue of the applicability of a warranty on any defect which is discovered after a warranty expires but could be proven to have resulted from an installation code violation.

... [T]he information I provided could be helpful to an owner encountering a faulty installation in which the installer hides behind the warranty.

[inda50]

Sorry to hear about your experience. Great to see someone stand up to try to get the "right thing" done . The frail owners before you were unable. The right thing does not have a time limit. I applaud your effort even though you did not succeed . Bravo!

[chuckinca]

Sidney,
I guess you could thank the lord it was recycled water. Could you imagine what 30,000 gallons of drinking water would cost! :cus:


From another TOTV thread - drinking water is cheaper than irrigation water!

[Frangyomory]

I am not surprised because the VHA representatives do NOT represent us, the home owners, they are shills for the developer/family! Anyone who thinks they get representation by VHA are simply being fooled.

While it might still be a waste of time, you should send copies of all your correspondence to the POA and see if they can do anything for you. Likely not because the "rules" are on the side of the developer! Surprise!

I don't understand why the water company didn't notice this!!! Oh, yes, the water/utility company is part of the developers oversight!! Doesn't our water bill come together with our trash bill and amenity bill????????

This is my only real gripe here. I LOVE living here but the family rarely accepts responsibility even when they should. In your case, Sid, there is a moral obligation to help you out even though not legal obligation. Had the old fellow, Mr. Schwartz, still been alive you would not be going through this. He would have taken care of it and shaken your hand.

The second and third generation don't give a rats' behind about those of us who have already bought a home here and the VHA rep spoke the only truth to you when they said....yes, the family makes a lot of money and I am glad they do!!! That VHA rep is probably employed in some other capacity by the developer and owes their paycheck to them. They won't ever bite the hand that feeds them.

[Sidney Lanier]

I am not surprised because the VHA representatives do NOT represent us, the home owners, they are shills for the developer/family! Anyone who thinks they get representation by VHA are simply being fooled.

While it might still be a waste of time, you should send copies of all your correspondence to the POA and see if they can do anything for you. Likely not because the "rules" are on the side of the developer! Surprise!

I don't understand why the water company didn't notice this!!! Oh, yes, the water/utility company is part of the developers oversight!! Doesn't our water bill come together with our trash bill and amenity bill????????

This is my only real gripe here. I LOVE living here but the family rarely accepts responsibility even when they should. In your case, Sid, there is a moral obligation to help you out even though not legal obligation. Had the old fellow, Mr. Schwartz, still been alive you would not be going through this. He would have taken care of it and shaken your hand.

The second and third generation don't give a rats' behind about those of us who have already bought a home here and the VHA rep spoke the only truth to you when they said....yes, the family makes a lot of money and I am glad they do!!! That VHA rep is probably employed in some other capacity by the developer and owes their paycheck to them. They won't ever bite the hand that feeds them.

BINGO! Absolutely accurate. The VHA does neat things for TV as a whole, that is, those approved by the developer (plural) which in truth do add to the quality of the find product they are offering to us, but nothing for individuals with issues. Ironically, the VHA rep is a neighbor whom we know socially as well and is indeed employed in another capacity.

I've harped on my issue with the utility company not noticing that a house that should use 4-5,000 gallons of irrigation water used 6-8 times this amount! Similarly, dealing with what could be considered at the time 'only' a goodwill issue rather than a requirement through the warranties we accept when we buy here is similarly beating a dead horse. For a scant amount of money, or even just an acknowledgment, the developer, through their management, could have built goodwill but instead chose not to make an exception, which must be consistent behavior on their part.

By the time I'd posted the original story, I'd long since given up on beating the dead horse. I just wanted to share the story with my fellow villagers in the hope that it could serve even at least one of them with a similar experience with an egregiously high water bill.

[Quixote]

Im just reading old threads and found this crazy story. I can understand the management not wanting to admit to anything because that could open a big nasty door for them. Do things like this happen often in the Villages?

[anyexit]

Im just reading old threads and found this crazy story. I can understand the management not wanting to admit to anything because that could open a big nasty door for them. Do things like this happen often in the Villages?

Don't you think the word would get out if things like this happen often? 78,000 people can't all be idiots to stay here. It's a wonderful place to live. This is the 2nd "bump up" by you today of threads that have been previously run their course. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but there does seem to be a pattern here.

[clyd709]

Regarding the buckling of Carpet, I had the same problem in 2 pieces of property in the Villages,First in a Single Home then in a Courtyard Villa, Many of my friends had the same problem. I think part of the problem is that when they pour the Concrete Slab for the Houses they do not let it cure for a sufficient amount of time,only my opinion. If the Concrete does not dry properly it will create problems. It can create problems when the flooring is put down for eg; Carpet,Vynel,Woodfloor etc. Because onc you put the floor covering down and ther is any moisture left in the concrete it creates a perfect place for mildew to grow. It is dark and Moist. Any Home we built before Moving to the Villages we always let the Concrete cure for at least a week before we started Framing the House. Like I said this is only my personal opinion and I loved Living in the Villages but mabey it is a good idea to ask how long the concrete is allowed to cure before they start building Mabey the rules vary from state to state but in my opinion Concrete is Concrete no matter how you look at it , Good Luck

[Bob S]

Actually concrete takes much longer for the water vapor to dissipate. Commercial projects require testing of water vapor transmission before flooring is placed. This can take from 1 to 6 months of drying time. If the slab is still emitting vapors, it can affect carpet and floor tile adhesives.

I am sure that with the rapid construction in The Villages this can become a real problem.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

Another thing to find out is if they put in a vapor barrier. Plastic down under the concrete pour keeps moisture from the sand coming in to contact with the concrete.

[Bogie Shooter]

Im just reading old threads and found this crazy story. I can understand the management not wanting to admit to anything because that could open a big nasty door for them. Do things like this happen often in the Villages??
Do you think it would any different in any of the hundreds of other developments in Florida? Or any other state?

[GatbTester]

I am sure it is not different in many other developments in Florida, a shortcut is just what it implicates; that being said the developer and VHA has an ethical responsiblity to ensure that ALL owners are protected and made to feel that "big brother at least cares." While we all like to point to pride in living here, these bumps in the road make us see the reality and at times it stinks! Mr. Schwartz would not have allowed this to occur, or if so would have had it corrected......PERIOD! Not these losers!

[dillywho]

Maybe we are the exception, but we have had some issues resolved even after living here for several years. The first one was that my kitchen sink kept stopping up. Since our home had long past the year warranty, I called the Warranty Dept. to find out who had done the original plumbing. It was Scott Plumbing and I called them. When the plumber cleaned it out, he said that it was because I had put egg shells through the disposal. I don't, I put them in a bag in the freezer until trash day, which is what I do with whatever might smell up the trash can in the house. He was showing me the debris and what he originally thought were egg shells, but in doing so he discovered that it was actually dry wall. He concluded that the builders had cleaned up in the sink and that was the problem and wrote it off to warranty work. Another time I called the Warranty Dept. to find out who to contact because my shutters had faded out on some of the windows and they told me how to contact Alcoa. Alcoa does not warranty paint, but did advise me on the proper way to paint them. In going through my "Wish Book" to find out which shutters we had (we got to pick out everything for our houses back then) before I contacted Alcoa, I discovered that my lamp post was specified as black and the contractors had installed a white one. When I called the Warranty Dept. back about it, they checked and their records indicated that the post should have indeed been black and sent Price Electric to correct the error the next day. I now have a black post.

As for the way the sprinkler people do things, I was told when we moved in to contact them right away because there was only the 30-day warranty so they would send someone out. I did, but it never happened. They didn't even bother to return my phone calls. My neighbor ended up giving me a spare "key" to adjust the heads and the cover still won't stay on the meter when you open it. Superior Services finally got it programmed like it should be for me and checked/set the heads as part of the yard service I get from them.