U S A in the middle east

[Guest]

In the last 8 years, we have completely changed our policy in the middle east.

We have been the principal power in the middle east for a long long time. Now, we are not.

Interesting article in the WSJ on this subject

"“It’s the lowest ebb since World War II for U.S. influence and engagement in the region,” said Ryan Crocker, a career diplomat who served as the Obama administration’s ambassador to Afghanistan and before that as U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Pakistan."

We have been at the side of Israel; We rolled back Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, halted the Iran islamic revolution.

Interesting....."Today, the void created by U.S. withdrawal is being filled by the very powers that American policy has long sought to contain."

"“It’s not American military muscle that’s the main thing—there is a hell of a lot of American military muscle in the Middle East. It’s people’s belief—by our friends and by our opponents—that we will use that muscle to protect our friends, no ifs, ands or buts,” said James Jeffrey, a former U.S. ambassador to Iraq and Turkey. “Nobody is willing to take any risks if the U.S. is not taking any risks and if people are afraid that we’ll turn around and walk away tomorrow.”

This perception seems to be gaining traction in the region, where traditional allies—notably Israel and the Gulf monarchies—feel abandoned after the Obama administration’s nuclear deal with Iran. Many regional leaders and commentators compare Russian President Vladimir Putin’s unflinching support for Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s ruthless regime with Washington’s willingness to let go of its own allies, notably Egypt’s longtime autocrat Hosni Mubarak. The phrase “red line” now often elicits knowing smirks, a result of the president’s U-turn away from striking Syria after the Assad regime’s horrifying sarin-gas attack in 2013.

There is another side investigated in this article.....

"The Obama administration’s pivot away from the Middle East is rooted, of course, in deep fatigue with the massive military and financial commitments made by the U.S. since 9/11, above all after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: Since 2001, at least $1.6 trillion has been spent, according to the Congressional Research Service, and 6,900 U.S. troops have been killed in the region.

“We couldn’t have gone in more flat-out than we did in Iraq, and not only didn’t it work, it made things even worse. That’s something to keep in mind when talking about Syria,” said Jeremy Shapiro, a fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington and a former State Department official."

"Such reluctance to get involved also reflects the overall mood of the American public, argued Brian Katulis, a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, a Washington think tank close to the administration.

“It’s not really about ‘exhaustion’ from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. I see it a bit more as pragmatism—many Americans look back on the past 15 years of U.S. engagement in the Middle East, and they see a meager return on investment when it comes to stability. So there’s a natural skepticism,” he said."[/B]

I know I am cutting and pasting a lot on this article but I think this country has a decision to make on what we intend to do and I am trying to present both sides of this issue as best I can.

I leave you with the last para of this article and hope you will read it. It really does give both sides of our withdrawl from the middle east and the rising of Russia and Iran.

"But others have concluded that the Middle East’s Pax Americana is truly over. “Whoever comes after Obama will not have many cards left to play,” said Mr. Hokayem. “I don’t see a strategy even for the next president. We’ve gone too far.”

[Guest]

I forgot the link to the article for anyone who really wants to read it''

America (http://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-fading-footprint-in-the-middle-east-1444411954)

I really suggest everyone reading it. The Middle East is not going away and we, as a country need to make some big decisions.

[Guest]

I forgot the link to the article for anyone who really wants to read it''

America (http://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-fading-footprint-in-the-middle-east-1444411954)

I really suggest everyone reading it. The Middle East is not going away and we, as a country need to make some big decisions.

Not as long as crony politicians are in charge!

[Guest]

Not as long as crony politicians are in charge!

Do you think we need influence in the Middle East ?

Do you think that maybe during the Bush administration we went too far one way and now we are going too far the other ?

It is apparent that, we can curry not much favor in that area at all, and no country there now trusts us.

[Guest]

Interesting and somewhat relative to this thread AND a split off discussion in another about torture.

"Saudi Arabia’s airstrikes in Yemen, conducted with U.S. assistance,
are alleged to have killed at least 1,500 civilians, dividing members of the Obama administration over whether the U.S. risks being accused of abetting war crimes in a bombing campaign that could ultimately strengthen Islamist militants."


Read more: Obama officials at odds over Saudi airstrikes - POLITICO (http://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/yemen-war-crimes-obama-215058#ixzz3piuuYpUB)

"Sources inside the administration say they are struggling to keep in check
the opposing sides in Yemen, one of the clearest examples of the intensifying Saudi-Iran proxy war in the Middle East. But even as reports of civilian suffering and terrorist gains pile up, U.S. officials believe that reducing American support for the Saudis could make the situation even worse.
Story Continued Below

The White House does not want to anger Saudi Arabia, a vital, oil-rich ally already unhappy with President Barack Obama’s decision to pursue a nuclear deal with Iran. At the same time, what many hoped would be a short Saudi-led campaign against the Iran-backed Houthi rebels who overthrew Yemen’s government, is now entering its eighth month with no end in sight."


Middle East...are we engaged enough ???? Killing more and more civilians.

[Guest]

LINK FOR ABOVE

Obama officials at odds over Saudi airstrikes - POLITICO (http://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/yemen-war-crimes-obama-215058)

[Guest]

This appears to be an interesting upcoming confluence.......

"An Iranian official says the Revolutionary Guard has sent more military advisers to Syria to help President Bashar Assad in the fight against insurgents.

Gen. Hossein Salami, the Guard's deputy leader, says this has led to more Iranian deaths in the conflict. Salami didn't give any specifics for the Iranian death toll or for the number of troops dispatched.

Salami spoke to state television on Tuesday. He says Iranian forces are also trying to mobilize volunteers in Syria to help Assad push back rebels, though he did not say if those included Western-backed rebel groups fighting in Syria.

Along with Russia, Iran is a key Assad ally and has provided his government with military and political backing for years. Tehran, however, denies the presence of Iranian combat troops in Syria.

Official: Iran has sent more military advisers to Syria (http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/10/27/official-iran-has-sent-more-military-advisers-syria/74670336/)

"The United States and Saudi Arabia have dramatically responded to Russian air-strikes in support of the Assad regime by agreeing to boost their own military and diplomatic support for the Syrian rebels.
John Kerry, the US secretary of state, the King Salman of Saudi Arabia in Riyadh for talks over the weekend. Despite Russian leaders saying they had extracted promises of fresh elections from President Bashar al-Assad, Mr Kerry and the Saudi ruler presented a common front in agreeing to hit the regime harder."

US and Saudis vow to step up war on Assad in defiance of Russia - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11954193/US-and-Saudis-vow-to-step-up-war-on-Assad-in-defiance-of-Russia.html)

When you read BOTH of these from today....it would seem that there are cross purposes at work and escalating.

[Guest]

We will never influence change in the Middle East as long as we have a pseudo Muslim running America with dictator rule.

[Guest]

I cannot tell the players without a score card now...

"Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu has confirmed that the Turkish military has attacked Kurdish fighters in northern Syria.
The Kurdish People's Protection Units (YPG) said Turkey shot at its forces in the town of Tal Abyad on Sunday.
The YPG has been a key ally of the US in fighting the so-called Islamic State (IS) group in Syria."

Turkey confirms shelling Kurdish fighters in Syria - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34645462)

I keep thinking of the warnings given and a quote from the WSJ article above...

"...where traditional allies—notably Israel and the Gulf monarchies—feel abandoned after the Obama administration’s nuclear deal with Iran.

We may not want to be involved but creating a vacuum is never a good idea.
US NEWS and World Report opined this a few months ago....and it is happening...

"If there is an epitaph written about the Obama foreign policy legacy, it would highlight the word vacuum. The latest transformation of the Obama Doctrine should be entitled the Grand Retreat – not quite a rout, but not quite a strategic withdrawal either. It is almost exhausting making a list of every location that America has either left or never bothered with. However, one can focus on the single issue of Islamic extremism to illustrate this disaster."

And it further discusses the policy that is at the feet of Ms Clinton and President Obama in Libya....

"The Obama mentality was illustrated in Libya, where American halfhearted intervention assisted in justifiably removing dictator Moammar Gadhafi, but lack of further involvement allowed parts of the country to fall under the sway of the Islamic State group. Naturally, the worst example is in Iraq and Syria, where initial timidity followed by a rump policy of limited intervention with farcical rules of engagement led to the assembling and metastasizing of the Islamic State group, whose current grip is expanding worldwide. This vacuum has now been fully repeated in Yemen, and elements of it are in play in Egypt. America is absent from the field, and the enemy has exploited it fully"


Obama Foreign Policy Vaccum Has Let Islamic Extremists Run Wild - US News (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/world-report/2015/07/15/obama-foreign-policy-vaccum-has-let-islamic-extremists-run-wild)

I know everyone wants to just pull the covers over our head and ignore this region but I think that is impossible. Bill Clinton reminded us of how small the world is when he pushed NAFTA and it is getting smaller.

AND we are losing or have totally lost any influence

[Guest]

We will never influence change in the Middle East as long as we have a pseudo Muslim running America with dictator rule.
When did we have influence change there? The Crusades? A pseudo Muslim dictator, that's rich.

[Guest]

When did we have influence change there? The Crusades? A pseudo Muslim dictator, that's rich.

Well Chi, what is YOUR take on it? You like my term "pseudo Muslim dictator?" Thank you. I have little doubt that he leans Muslim. Evidence of his history proves he has had many years of Muslim influence in his life. He certainly doesn't show any Christian leaning. Even his one pastor claims a Christian label but an abundance of evidence contradicts that. Obama certainly has many traits resembling Muslims. He acts like a dictator with his EO pen, unlike any of his predecessors. He uses it like a legislator, rather than a executive leader.
So, why don't you give me your take on him that differs?

Obama is a threat to the American way of ideology, plain and simple. He will go down in history as the first black president, and a miserably failed experiment. Once again liberals have succeeded in lowering American standards, and this time without the assistance of the GOP. They (liberals) get all the credit.

[Guest]

Well Chi, what is YOUR take on it? You like my term "pseudo Muslim dictator?" Thank you. I have little doubt that he leans Muslim. Evidence of his history proves he has had many years of Muslim influence in his life. He certainly doesn't show any Christian leaning. Even his one pastor claims a Christian label but an abundance of evidence contradicts that. Obama certainly has many traits resembling Muslims. He acts like a dictator with his EO pen, unlike any of his predecessors. He uses it like a legislator, rather than a executive leader.
So, why don't you give me your take on him that differs?

Obama is a threat to the American way of ideology, plain and simple. He will go down in history as the first black president, and a miserably failed experiment. Once again liberals have succeeded in lowering American standards, and this time without the assistance of the GOP. They (liberals) get all the credit.
Instead of always fixating on Obama, what a have we done historically to influence change in the Middle East? And I mean lasting change. And let's include the British, Russians, French, and Germans. A list of short term gains and long term losses.

[Guest]

Instead of always fixating on Obama, what a have we done historically to influence change in the Middle East? And I mean lasting change. And let's include the British, Russians, French, and Germans. A list of short term gains and long term losses.

You're right, Chi. Rather than waste time on the Middle East by enhancing their lifestyle by purchasing their oil, we should send them back to being nomad wanderers of the desert by dropping a nuke on them. We should deny all visa applications from the Middle East and let them go back to herding goats and emptying sand from their burkas.

[Guest]

When did we have influence change there? The Crusades? A pseudo Muslim dictator, that's rich.

I agree. Getting some credit for influnce in the middle east seems to be on every POTUS' list. A total waste of reality.

We should just continue to be good allies with those who have shown they are friendly toward us. What have have given up doing under the current muslim favorable administration under Obam is to come down hard on those who violate trusts, agreements or intents that would result in harm to USA presence there or our friends in the area.

I remember the good old days when someone in the area did anything that violated Israel's presence, there was a military strike the next day to rid the area of the aggressor. In those days Israel had a line drawn in the sand and if one crossed it, it was a known fact there would be retaliation.

Fast forward to today.....even Israel has joined the let's wait and see crowd. While we hold first place for doing anything against anybody who crosses the line, beheads our people, massacres women and children, threaten to kill us all........we now are feared by no one in the middle east. The protagonists all know there will only be a plethora of words from Obam and if it involves a muslim action he most likely will defend their positin while apologizing for the actions of the USA.

[Guest]

I agree. Getting some credit for influnce in the middle east seems to be on every POTUS' list. A total waste of reality.

We should just continue to be good allies with those who have shown they are friendly toward us. What have have given up doing under the current muslim favorable administration under Obam is to come down hard on those who violate trusts, agreements or intents that would result in harm to USA presence there or our friends in the area.

I remember the good old days when someone in the area did anything that violated Israel's presence, there was a military strike the next day to rid the area of the aggressor. In those days Israel had a line drawn in the sand and if one crossed it, it was a known fact there would be retaliation.

Fast forward to today.....even Israel has joined the let's wait and see crowd. While we hold first place for doing anything against anybody who crosses the line, beheads our people, massacres women and children, threaten to kill us all........we now are feared by no one in the middle east. The protagonists all know there will only be a plethora of words from Obam and if it involves a muslim action he most likely will defend their positin while apologizing for the actions of the USA.

Israel has no choice. WE have a weak president holding Israel's purse strings. Obama controls Israel by threatening to pull their funding. It will be back to normal once we get rid of the liberals in D.C.

[Guest]

Instead of always fixating on Obama, what a have we done historically to influence change in the Middle East? And I mean lasting change. And let's include the British, Russians, French, and Germans. A list of short term gains and long term losses.

NEW YORK TIMES....2012...

"THERE was a time when American power was viewed as decisive in the Middle East. If Washington sneezed there was a sense that the region would catch a cold.

Times have changed. Many factors brought us to this point. Perhaps most important is the fact that though the region has changed, U.S. policies have not adapted."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/opinion/marwan-muasher-reviving-us-influence-in-the-middle-east.html?_r=0

That responds to the question as to WHEN did we have influence.

I think it rather naive to think we can just set back and ignore the ME as if it meant nothing. Those allies that someone mentioned in a post who we will support if they need us are leaving our sides and quickly.

Folks seem to think insuring influence means war. It might at times, abut ignoring and region that is literally on fire, full of terrorism, and requiring someone to be by their side does not make much sense to me.

We do not live in past times. The world is small. Distances do not mean much anymore. If we intend to have our allies to be such as Great Britian, etc...then we are not even in the game.

"While Russia participates in the new U.S.-led discussions over Syria, it is simultaneously striking side deals with U.S. allies to further its military presence there, which the U.S. government has called counterproductive.

On the same day as the Vienna meeting, Russia signed an agreement with Jordan to coordinate militarily against the Islamic State. The next day, Kerry traveled to Jordan and Saudi Arabia to discuss Syria with leaders there. (Putin didn't have to go to Saudi Arabia; the Saudi defense minister had visited Moscow earlier this month.) And while Kerry was in the region, the government of Iraq announced it had given Russia the green light to begin airstrikes there too, over U.S. objections."

U.S. is driving Mideast allies to Putin - Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-declassified-836a287e-7ca3-11e5-bfb6-65300a5ff562-20151027-story.html)

The article referenced above begins...

"America's traditional Middle East allies, having run out of patience with President Barack Obama's policy in Syria, are now reaching out to a resurgent Russia -- even though it is bolstering the very dictator so many of them have pushed to leave power."


So I simply say to those who wonder WHEN we have had influence and why we need to have influence, PLEASE READ...history and current events

We are being squeezed out, allies are leaving. You folks are envisioning the region as a bunch of folks on camels and behind the times and not worthy or our respect.

I will tell you, THAT IS NAIVE to say the least.