Indoor Pistol Range

[Carl in Tampa]

There was a thread on Open Carry Laws that transitioned to a discussion of Indoor Pistol Ranges. Sadly, I found that thread closed before I could contribute a thought on the ranges......not on the open carry law.

I do not recommend to anyone what they might want to do with regard to guns and shooting, I am only making people aware of an alternative to the dangerous practice of shooting a firearm indoors in a residence.

The alternative is the use of an air gun (BB or Pellet) (Spring Loaded or Compressed Air.) The target is affixed to a Bullet Trap that is designed to stop at least a .22 caliber firearm. A safe indoor "range" would have to be established, with suitable backstop, and no one permitted in the area while shooting was going on. The air gun makes a "bang" but probably not so loud that a neighbor would hear it from inside a closed, air conditioned, house.

Interestingly, Florida Law does not regard a BB or Pellet gun to be a firearm so all of the objections about shooting a firearm near residences would not appear to apply. Also, unlike an Air Soft gun, it is not required to have orange paint on the muzzle.  The use for any purpose whatsoever of BB guns, air or gas-operated guns, or electric weapons or devices, by any minor under the age of 16 years is prohibited unless such use is under the supervision and in the presence of an adult who is acting with the consent of the minor’s parent.

When I was last residing in The Villages there was an air gun club with access to an air gun range for both pistol and rifle. Note that some air guns, both pistols and rifles are capable of power great enough to be used in small game hunting. The Emperor Napoleon was so incensed by enemy soldier snipers using air guns (for their silence) that he directed that an enemy found in possession of an air gun was to be executed on the spot. (But I digress.)

The pictured air pistol is a .177 Pistol Match grade with an upgraded (extra cost) Walther Match Grade rifled barrel. The target trap will stop a .22 caliber projectile. Extra bulls eyes were hand painted on in orange to get more use from the target when the main bulls eye is shot out.

[The Fed]

I agree with you that the open carry thread was closed prematurely, but only because 95% of the information about Florida law and other states' open carry laws was wrong. Perhaps that was why it was closed. I think the reason the information was so faulty is that most people who move to the Villages are ignorant of the laws of both Florida and the states they previously lived in. I do not blame them - it's hard to keep up - and I consider myself a "lay" expert on the subject. I was a moderator for a large web forum in Florida for years until it was combined with another site.

Just to correct a few misconceptions, if I may. You can open carry in Florida WITH A CWL to and from fishing, hunting, and a gun range. If I really wanted to, I could walk or bicycle to and from a gun range while open carrying. Do I recommend it? No. If you look for articles about open carrying on Clearwater's pier (where many people fish) you will see where CPD officers politely stop and ask fisherman who open carry for their permits. Note: The police do have the right to ask if you are open carrying. And another note, you are not required to volunteer you are carrying concealed. As for volunteering - if you really want to know if it's a good idea, ask you local sheriff or CoP. I can tell you this - not all want you to? Why? Because now they are required to waste time verifying you're legit.

As for open carry in other states, I'll give you a example I consider my best. Take Pennsylvania. It's been open carry for decades. You can get a permit if you want to carry concealed. Only Philadelphia requires a permit for open carry. PA law does not prohibit college campus carry. Fact: There has never been a shooting on a college campus by a permit holder. Ever. But almost no one open carries anywhere? Why? Because the police will hassle you. Every time Philly arrests a person open carrying legally, they are sued and have to pay up. Doesn't stop them from arresting people though.

Regarding Hillary. She stated she wants to look at Australia's gun "buyback" program that took place many years ago. It was NOT voluntary, it was required, and if you refused you were arrested. What happened with crime? Up 50%. Note: According to sources, they were not paid fair market value for their guns. And it's extremely difficult for a law-abiding citizen to own a gun now.

As for open carry legislation in Florida, I only have one problem with it - you should be required to use a Level 2 Retention Holster if you are carrying on your hip, so a bad guy doesn't just grab your gun. You would already need a carry permit, but a course in gun retention should also be required. You would get an "open carry" endorsement on your carry permit. Personally, I would still carry concealed, but it would be nice to not need to worry about the wind blowing my shirt up. I know, they changed the law to allow for this, but there are many counties and cities here with gun-hating police forces.

[chuck90199]

It would probably be safer to use an air pistol or rifle that shoots pellets, not BBs. The BBs can ricochet, the pellets are less apt to do so.

Also, The Villages now has two air gun ranges. The new one is at the south end near the new Rohan Rec Center and Soaring Eagle Softball Park. They only allow .177 pellets to be used at the two ranges.

[Carl in Tampa]

Just to correct a few misconceptions, if I may. You can open carry in Florida WITH A CWL to and from fishing, hunting, and a gun range. If I really wanted to, I could walk or bicycle to and from a gun range while open carrying. Do I recommend it? No. If you look for articles about open carrying on Clearwater's pier (where many people fish) you will see where CPD officers politely stop and ask fisherman who open carry for their permits. Note: The police do have the right to ask if you are open carrying. And another note, you are not required to volunteer you are carrying concealed. As for volunteering - if you really want to know if it's a good idea, ask you local sheriff or CoP. I can tell you this - not all want you to? Why? Because now they are required to waste time verifying you're legit.

As for open carry legislation in Florida, I only have one problem with it - you should be required to use a Level 2 Retention Holster if you are carrying on your hip, so a bad guy doesn't just grab your gun. You would already need a carry permit, but a course in gun retention should also be required. You would get an "open carry" endorsement on your carry permit. Personally, I would still carry concealed, but it would be nice to not need to worry about the wind blowing my shirt up. I know, they changed the law to allow for this, but there are many counties and cities here with gun-hating police forces.

We disagree about a Concealed Weapons License making Open Carry permissible in certain conditions in Florida. There is no such provision.

The Concealed Weapons law (FS 790.06) allows for a licensee "...who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense."

The section of the Florida law (FS 790.25) that provides for "possession" of a firearm while going to or from or engaged in hunting, fishing, etc. not only does not require a Concealed Weapons License but actually states that the provisions of the Statute regarding Concealed Weapons does not apply. It also does not authorize Open Carry while going to or from these activities; merely possession.

Further, if in an automobile while going to or from the activity, the firearm must be "encased" and not in "manual possession" of the owner. In fact, if you have a Concealed Weapons license the gun must be concealed on your person, not lying nearby.

The Open Carry on the Clearwater dock might be considered possession while fishing (paragraph h of FS 790.25) but it still does not require a Concealed Weapons License. Perhaps the police are simply checking personal identification or fishing licenses.

I enjoy a good exchange of information, without acrimony.

:police:

[outlaw]

We disagree about a Concealed Weapons License making Open Carry permissible in certain conditions in Florida. There is no such provision.

The Concealed Weapons law (FS 790.06) allows for a licensee "...who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense."

The section of the Florida law (FS 790.25) that provides for "possession" of a firearm while going to or from or engaged in hunting, fishing, etc. not only does not require a Concealed Weapons License but actually states that the provisions of the Statute regarding Concealed Weapons does not apply. It also does not authorize Open Carry while going to or from these activities; merely possession.

Further, if in an automobile while going to or from the activity, the firearm must be "encased" and not in "manual possession" of the owner. In fact, if you have a Concealed Weapons license the gun must be concealed on your person, not lying nearby.

The Open Carry on the Clearwater dock might be considered possession while fishing (paragraph h of FS 790.25) but it still does not require a Concealed Weapons License. Perhaps the police are simply checking personal identification or fishing licenses.

I enjoy a good exchange of information, without acrimony.

:police:

I thought Florida considered your automobile as your "castle" under the castle doctrine, and therefore, you could have your weapon accessible in your car without a CCL? Also, can you point me to the statute that requires a CCL holder to conceal the weapon on his person when in his auto? thanks.

[Carl in Tampa]

I thought Florida considered your automobile as your "castle" under the castle doctrine, and therefore, you could have your weapon accessible in your car without a CCL? Also, can you point me to the statute that requires a CCL holder to conceal the weapon on his person when in his auto? thanks.


Florida Statute 790.25 Lawful Ownership, Possession, and Use of Firearms and Other Weapons

(5) Possession in Private Conveyance.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use.

Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as
provided in s. 776.012.

About "Securely Encased"

790.001 Definitions.-- As Used in This Chapter, Except Where the Context Otherwise Requires:
(17) "Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover
to be opened for access.

Now, some of my knowledge in this area is based upon enforcement briefings that I had when an active duty Deputy Sheriff in Tampa; said briefings having been based upon Attorney General decisions. I couldn't tell you how to research the decisions. But if you have a Concealed Weapons License, but are not carrying the weapon concealed on your person, then the weapon is not being carried in compliance with the Concealed Weapons statute and must be carried in compliance with the statute quoted above.

Incidentally, the Castle Doctrine authorizes the use of deadly force, rather than being obligated to retreat, in the case of attack, both in your home and your automobile. But it makes no reference to the deadly force implement, so no mention of firearms. It might more properly called the "No Duty to Retreat" Law.

If I run across more documentation I'll let you know.

[Shimpy]

Note: The police do have the right to ask if you are open carrying. .


Can't they see this?

[Carl in Tampa]

Can't they see this?


In the context of the post, I believe the poster meant that the police could ask to see your concealed weapons license if you were openly carrying a pistol. As I pointed out, the license carries no authorization to carry openly.

[looneycat]

Florida Statute 790.25 Lawful Ownership, Possession, and Use of Firearms and Other Weapons

(5) Possession in Private Conveyance.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use.

Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as
provided in s. 776.012.

About "Securely Encased"

790.001 Definitions.-- As Used in This Chapter, Except Where the Context Otherwise Requires:
(17) "Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover
to be opened for access.

Now, some of my knowledge in this area is based upon enforcement briefings that I had when an active duty Deputy Sheriff in Tampa; said briefings having been based upon Attorney General decisions. I couldn't tell you how to research the decisions. But if you have a Concealed Weapons License, but are not carrying the weapon concealed on your person, then the weapon is not being carried in compliance with the Concealed Weapons statute and must be carried in compliance with the statute quoted above.

Incidentally, the Castle Doctrine authorizes the use of deadly force, rather than being obligated to retreat, in the case of attack, both in your home and your automobile. But it makes no reference to the deadly force implement, so no mention of firearms. It might more properly called the "No Duty to Retreat" Law.

If I run across more documentation I'll let you know.

thanks for the factual answer. when I go to the range my range guns are in the trunk and my concealed carry is on my person.

[Shimpy]

I've had a CCL for about 18 years and have no desire to carry open. The very first thing my instructor told the class I took to get the license was to never tell anyone you are carrying. If you do then you may find yourself in a situation where there may be a problem and everyone would look to you to "do something". I carry to protect myself and family and with the way the laws and courts are that is all I'm going to do.

[Carl in Tampa]

I've had a CCL for about 18 years and have no desire to carry open. The very first thing my instructor told the class I took to get the license was to never tell anyone you are carrying. If you do then you may find yourself in a situation where there may be a problem and everyone would look to you to "do something". I carry to protect myself and family and with the way the laws and courts are that is all I'm going to do.

:agree:

I agree, and this is the same reason that I don't generally wear "casual police" clothing when I go out. If I am in the check out line when the armed robber enters the convenience store, I will be his first target. The same would apply to someone who is carrying openly.

I prefer concealed carry and the tactical advantage it brings.

:boom:

[looneycat]

I've had a CCL for about 18 years and have no desire to carry open. The very first thing my instructor told the class I took to get the license was to never tell anyone you are carrying. If you do then you may find yourself in a situation where there may be a problem and everyone would look to you to "do something". I carry to protect myself and family and with the way the laws and courts are that is all I'm going to do.

the only plus I see in open carry is that it removes the penalty for accidentally exposing my concealed weapon.

[outlaw]

Florida Statute 790.25 Lawful Ownership, Possession, and Use of Firearms and Other Weapons

(5) Possession in Private Conveyance.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use.

Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as
provided in s. 776.012.

About "Securely Encased"

790.001 Definitions.-- As Used in This Chapter, Except Where the Context Otherwise Requires:
(17) "Securely encased" means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover
to be opened for access.

Now, some of my knowledge in this area is based upon enforcement briefings that I had when an active duty Deputy Sheriff in Tampa; said briefings having been based upon Attorney General decisions. I couldn't tell you how to research the decisions. But if you have a Concealed Weapons License, but are not carrying the weapon concealed on your person, then the weapon is not being carried in compliance with the Concealed Weapons statute and must be carried in compliance with the statute quoted above.

Incidentally, the Castle Doctrine authorizes the use of deadly force, rather than being obligated to retreat, in the case of attack, both in your home and your automobile. But it makes no reference to the deadly force implement, so no mention of firearms. It might more properly called the "No Duty to Retreat" Law.

If I run across more documentation I'll let you know.

Thanks for the info. Not crystal clear, but then, that's what keeps lawyers in business.

[outlaw]

the only plus I see in open carry is that it removes the penalty for accidentally exposing my concealed weapon.

I think Florida already had the accidental exposure scenario covered under a separate statute?

[looneycat]

I think Florida already had the accidental exposure scenario covered under a separate statute?

yep, that just passed this year.

[Carl in Tampa]

Well, back to the original subject. Indoor pistol ranges, using spring powered air guns and appropriate back stops, can help in maintaining shooting skills. Always be safe.