Golf Access Fees

[iaudit]

I was just logged onto the villages.net to access the golf reservation system.
There is a notice that the access rates are changing from $5.50 per month to $8.00 per month, effective January 1, 2009. In addition, there is no discount for paying on an annual or semi-annual basis. For twelve months, that means it will now cost $96 per year versus the old prepaid rate of $60 per year.

WHAT A RIPOFF!!!

Does anyone know if Comcast is going to change their current arrangement with customers for tee time access.

[iaudit]

Does anyone on this boards use the tee time golf access system at villages.net?? No reaction to their price increases, especially in light of the fact that the system has been down all day??

[ijusluvit]

Yes, it certainly looks like a ripoff. What cost does the Villages incur for continuing the computerized tee time system? Virtually all costs were associated with startup, which was paid for long ago. And what alternative do they have to the system? A labor-intensive phone system far less efficient and incapable of putting as many fee-paying golfers on the courses as the computer system can. So the fee increase almost seems like an insult.

If there's anyone out there who doesn't know it, you are entitled to free access to the Villages.net if you have an account with Comcast. I almost choke saying something positive about Comcast, but it's true!

[sschuler1]

I have no experience using the on-line tee time system there, but you posed the hypothetical question of what expenses they incur. I constantly see ads for jobs available in the tee times office, so I would hazard a guess that they have to pay those employees. Plus they would have the overhead of maintaining the building that the office is located in, just like any other business. It seems odd to have to pay for the service of making a tee time at a golf course, but they pretty much have us by the balls. (golf balls that is!)

[downeaster]

I have been told by thevillages.net the current arrangement with Comcast will end next June. No free access after that.

[zcaveman]

I have been told by thevillages.net the current arrangement with Comcast will end next June. No free access after that.

When Comcast bought out Clearlink, there was a letter that said that the free golf system access would continue until 2009 (I think). I have looked high and low for that letter and cannot find it. But I have not given up. When I find it I will repost.

Z

[Bogie Shooter]

I have been told by thevillages.net the current arrangement with Comcast will end next June. No free access after that.

Where is that information located on the thevillages.net website?

[zcaveman]

Go to https://www.thevillages.net/ and look to the left. It is under Service Notice.

Z

[borjo]

I was never told about the free access when we had Comcast! Doggone. I agree $96 is alot for the ease of making your tee time reservations. Maybe what we should do is use the phone system! No charge for that way. I never used it but one of my renters did all the time and said it wasn't very difficult at all.

[iaudit]

I don't understand why the developer should have the system that controls tee times for the executive courses. Since use of the executive courses is covered by our amenity fees, doesn't it make sense that someone under Janet Tutt should be responsible for these courses tee times and access should be covered under the amenity fee? Once the software is developed, the cost to run and maintain the system should be minimal.

[zcaveman]

The tee time system comes with two email Ids and the associated disk space which is not free. There is maintenance and other overhead associated with the email IDs above and beyond the Tee Time System. I don't think that Tutt and company want to get involved with running an ISP.

As I mentioned in another note, Comcast was providing free access to the Tee Time system through mid-2009. I am not sure who absorbed the cost of that decision.

I am not happy with the monthly charge as opposed to an annual discounted charge. But I will pay it because I do not like the telephone system.

[chacam]

Villages.net only gives two e-mail accounts to paying customers. Those who get it free through Comcast only get one e-mail address.

[Frangyomory]

If you are new here, just get used to it. The developer does just about anything he wants to do and raises prices at his will.

We moved in 2005 and were told our amenities would not raise until we had lived here two years. Less than one year later, we had an increase and each year since then.

The place is wonderful. I love living here. However, this is one of those things that gets my blood pressure up.

We just paid our $60 annual fee in August. Now I am waiting to see what they plan to do about recognizing that for one year or if we will get a bill for the $35 soon.

Truly, not worth having an attack over it.

As for T times in executive courses, if you saw the number of people who sneak out after the Ambassadors go home for the day, you would appreciate a T time system. While this is "free" don't forget your trail fees.

No free lunches, not here anyway. Remember, I love it here but every once in a while I get ticked off at something the developer does.

[zcaveman]

I found my letter from Comcast. It reads: "As a benefit, Comcast High-Speed Internet customers will enjoy complimentary access to www.thevillages.net through June 2009.

The letter was dated October 4, 2004.

I hope we are going to be notified so we can take appropriate action.

[The Great Fumar]

IF YOU ARE NEW HERE , DON'T BE MISLED BY CLAIMS OF PEOPLE SNEAKING ON THE COURSES IN THE EVENINGS........
AFTER HOURS (USUALLY ABOUT 5:30) WHEN THE STARTERS GO HOME , PEOPLE COME OUT AND GET A FEW HOLES BEFORE DARK.....THESE FOLKS ARE USUALLY BEGINNERS WHO DON'T WANT TO PLAY WHEN REGULARS ARE OUT THERE.... MANY FOLKS WHO MOVE TO THE VILLAGES ARE NOT GOLFERS OR JUST THE GUYS HAVE PLAYED AND NOW WANT TO TEACH THEIR WIFES TO PLAY AND THE EVENINGS ARE A PERFECT TIME TO DO THAT ....I TAUGHT MY WIFE THIS WAY BECAUSE IT WAS THE ONLY WAY I COULD GET HER TO TRY IT..........THAT WAS THREE YEARS AGO AND NOW SHE HAS CLUBS FAR BETTER THAN MINE (they had to be like Tigers) , SHE HAS HAD A HOLE IN ONE (thank God I wasn't there)....AND PLAYS WITH THE GIRLS ALL THE TIME. SHE LEAVES ME NOTES TELLING ME WHERE SHE IS AND WHAT TIME I SHOULD HAVE DINNER READY.....
AS MY DADDY USED TO SAY " I DON'T LIKE HER , BUT I'M USED TO HER"

BELIEVE ME 50 YRS OF MARRIAGE TAKES A LOT OF GETTING USE TO ....

COMING DEAR !!! FUMAR :bowdown:

[Autoshow]

The T Time system is an excellent way of controling the golf t times.
Office workers are always needed to keep the system going and also correcting mistakes when golfers are assigned points they do not deserve,
also doing printouts for the starters,etc.
If you are a resident of TV and enjoy the executive golf courses I think the amenity fee is well worth it,along with many of the other things that it covers.

[Cassie325]

So....all comcast users should be thankful that they do not have to pay any extra until June of next year....all village.net users have an increase now.....but next year....Everyone will have to pay the $90+ a year for the Tee time reservation system AND current Comcast users will still have to pay for Comcast....is this it? I just want to make sure I relay the information to the golfers in the family...correctly....

PS....fumar....I LOVE YOUR POST ON THIS THREAD~!!!

[zcaveman]

So....all comcast users should be thankful that they do not have to pay any extra until June of next year....all village.net users have an increase now.....but next year....Everyone will have to pay the $90+ a year for the Tee time reservation system AND current Comcast users will still have to pay for Comcast....is this it? I just want to make sure I relay the information to the golfers in the family...correctly....

PS....fumar....I LOVE YOUR POST ON THIS THREAD~!!!

Correct. It sounds like us Comcast users will have to pay the additional $8 a month to keep our villages.net IDs and to have the Online Tee Time System.

Personally I think that $8 a month is a high price to pay for something that should be free to Villagers but the telephone system is not an alternative to me so I will pay it until we can put enough pressure to bear to either get the price eliminated.

Z

[bargee]

It never ceases to amaze me.The economy is in the dumps so businesses raise prices so the'll have less business???

[iaudit]

I was a year round subscriber to the villages.net for the sole purpose of using the tee time system. I will now use it only during the January through March period. Old price - $60 per year. New price - $24 per year. They just forced me to save $36. The phone system is good enough during the less busy months.

If enough subscribers do this, maybe they will get the hint.

[aln]

iaudit,
I like your resolution to the problem, but, think about what other services do when you cancel and reinstate.

Nothings been said yet, but I would not be surprised to see "reinstatement" or "startup" fees to 'returning customers'.

[EdV]

This business of charging extra for the on-line system when the phone-in system is free, doesn’t make sense.

First of all the phone-in system costs as much to maintain as the on-line system. In fact, it may even cost more because they have to have a sufficient number of incoming phone lines to prevent excessive busy signals. And each addition phone line is a monthly expense and each phone line requires addition hardware and maintenance fees to support it.

On the other hand, the on-line system requires a single high speed connection which is already in place. And as the population of TV grows, it behooves them to encourage the use of on-line system, not discourage its use by charging extra for it and raising the fee to boot.

They’re shooting themselves in the foot on this one.

[Puterguru]

This business of charging extra for the on-line system when the phone-in system is free, doesn’t make sense.

First of all the phone-in system costs as much to maintain as the on-line system. In fact, it may even cost more because they have to have a sufficient number of incoming phone lines to prevent excessive busy signals. And each addition phone line is a monthly expense and each phone line requires addition hardware and maintenance fees to support it.

On the other hand, the on-line system requires a single high speed connection which is already in place. And as the population of TV grows, it behooves them to encourage the use of on-line system, not discourage its use by charging extra for it and raising the fee to boot.

They’re shooting themselves in the foot on this one.

I could be wrong here but I would say you are 100% wrong on this one.
The online Tee Time System would require the expense of:
A high speed connection which would need to continually be updated (i.e. pay more money) to accomodate the many users and new users to use the system.
A programmer to continually work on bringing in new features (which they have done, buddy list etc..) and to work on bug fixes
People to monitor the system and make changes as needed.
Money to pay for support
Money to fix/upgrade/maintain the server as needed.

The online Tee Time system is probably much more expensive to operate than the phone system.

Maybe it's just me but you can't get a burger and a shake over at Johnny Rockets for less than $8 bucks and that only last you 15 minutes. I don't see the $8 for making my tee times every single day 365 days a year as being overly expensive.

[Russ_Boston]

Puter - Being an IT manager myself I think you are probably correct in the assessment of costs. Most courses/clubs that offer these type of systems usually roll them into their annual membership costs. At least TV separates this cost so those that don't want to use it don't bear the expense. I'll bet that there are 10's of thousands of TVers who don't participate in it.

[pooh]

There has always been a fee to use Villages.net, correct? Are the complaints about the fee itself or the increase in the fee?
I have Comcast and once June rolls around, guess I'll be paying the additional costs unless that price impacts only those who have Comcast in particular counties. Don't remember getting a notice from Comcast about the change.

When we arrived about two years ago, hubby and I signed up for a year of TV.net before I knew that Comcast customers got it for free. The Villages.net quickly refunded funds when we informed them of our use of Comcast.

Costs go up, it's sadly a fact of life.

[villages07]

Russ,

Yeah, but there are also thousands who use the tee time system. I agree that there are costs to maintaining and operating a computer based system....but, I sure would like to see that budget. If, as others have posted, Comcast customers will start paying the $8/month starting next July.....let's do some hypothetical math. If there are 10,000 subscribers to the tee time system (out of close to 40,000 households)...that's $80,000/month or just under a million bucks a year. That seems like a pretty high cost for such a contained system. I would like to see a neutral party analyze this one...maybe a task for the amenity advisory committee. Cover costs yes...make a large profit no.

[Russ_Boston]

That's a good point V7. I'd put the cost at 100K or less since the software might even be purchased and not home grown. Of course the best way to fight something like this is for everyone to not use it and refuse to pay. I'm sure the cost would come down quick.

[EdV]

Puter and Russ. Well, if we’re going to toss around credentials, here’s mine. I’m a network engineer and have been for several decades. I have designed and supported the installation of city, state and military networks including Hybrid Fiber Cable networks (HFC) as currently used by Comcast and other ISP’s. The largest private network had 100 servers and 10,000 workstations. So I think it’s safe to say that I know a little more than the average techie about networked systems.

The point I’m trying to make is that the on-line system is all digital but the dial-up system (unless it’s a new state of the art system) is as a combination of analog and digital. For every POTS line coming in there needs to be circuitry to convert the analog tones to digital, process them, and then convert the audio responses back into analog. And then you need a server(s) with memory to run the software, disk storage to maintain the history, printers to print out the tee times for the starters and display units for interrogating and monitoring the system and handle changes or manual entries. So let’s not refer to the dial-up system as though it were some kind of self maintaining perpetual motion machine.

Now, I will agree with you that the on-line system is more capable of providing improved services that will require software and/or systems people who command pretty hefty salaries. But I also know several guys that make a pretty good living just servicing digital/POTS business phone systems.

I look at this in the same way I looked at the cable companies when they began to roll out their digital video services which required you to rent a digital set top box from them to take advantage of it. They kept harping on the supposed superior quality of the digital channels compared to the analog channels. This was nothing more than hype straight out of an Oscar Myer factory. There is absolutely no discernable difference in the image quality of a standard definition signal sent over an analog channel from one sent over a digital channel. The real reason for the digital upgrade was the fact that they can squeeze six standard definition channels into the same bandwidth as a single analog channel. And that means being able to offer many more channels and increased revenue while getting a lot of subscribers to subsidize a portion of the infrastructure.

It’s a shell game, and TV knows how to play it. Believe me, they would love to get rid of that POTS dial-in system, but they can’t. Not only would there be grandfather clause issues, but there are still many villagers who either don’t have or won’t use a PC to book tee times.

So in my opinion, they’ve done the same thing that the cable companies have done. They upgraded their system but off-loaded the infrastructure costs by charging for the increased whiz-bang features like “buddy lists” etc. This is in spite of the fact that the more new residents that use the new system will decrease the overhead of expanding the old POTS system that at this point is probably getting a little long in the tooth.

Just calling it as I see it.

[Puterguru]

Russ,

Yeah, but there are also thousands who use the tee time system. I agree that there are costs to maintaining and operating a computer based system....but, I sure would like to see that budget. If, as others have posted, Comcast customers will start paying the $8/month starting next July.....let's do some hypothetical math. If there are 10,000 subscribers to the tee time system (out of close to 40,000 households)...that's $80,000/month or just under a million bucks a year. That seems like a pretty high cost for such a contained system. I would like to see a neutral party analyze this one...maybe a task for the amenity advisory committee. Cover costs yes...make a large profit no.

Since when is it a crime for companies to make a profit? Maybe they are maybe they aren't, I have no clue. But the last time I looked the sole purpose of any company is to "make a profit". Who are we to decide how much they should make? Sounds kind of like Socialism to me.

Quite frankly I'm surprised that they have only been charging $5.50 per month. Everyone here knows what the online Tee Time System can do. I don't need to go over the benefits. It has been $5.50 per month for a very long time, I think almost 6 years with no price increases. Everything else has gone up. Again some people may or may not like it, may or may not be able to afford it but it's still only $8.00 per month. For everything you can do on the system and for it's convenience that is well worth the money to me.

Perhaps they should ship the servers overseas, get rid of the store front, hire foreign technical support. Certainly then it would be cheaper and make some people happy.

[Russ_Boston]

First my intent wasn't to throw around any credentials (in fact if you've read my posts then you know I'm getting out of that biz after many years). Heck they can charge whatever they can get away with - agreed. Reservation systems can be hefty and the up front costs (assuming it is home grown) can be large. But if V7 is correct about the number of subscribers, well let's just say that if it was common stock, I'd be a buyer!

[villages07]

Puter,

I have no issues with companies making profits....but who are 'they' in this case?

It seems as though it is an internal Villages operation that supports amenities and should run at a cost basis...i.e. monies collected should support operating costs.

This (tee time system) is another fuzzy area of what is an internal resident supported and funded function versus an external developer/business function. I honestly don't know what the answer is.

The developer/entertainment dept can charge whatever they want to for drinks at the libation stations in the town squares and make a nice profit...good for them. That is understood to be a separate commercial enterprise.

Don't get me wrong....I agree that the tee time system is great and should be supported by those who use it but at a fair and reasonable cost. $100/year to use tee time system but $140/year for trail fees? Seems out of balance.

[smalldog]

SMALLDOG SEZ ............. true to most things in The Villages, let us see how much more we can get the cattle ( us frogs) to pay, after all you are living the millionair's life style aren't you ?? :boxing2:............ if there is one thing that detracts from every day life here it is the constant nickle dimeing of it all :ohdear: ........... so it is argued they upgraded didn't they ?? ....... and as alway us you must pay for convience :yuck:
What the hey, you've got it and they want it :cus:

[nitehawk]

Thank You -- EdVinMass --very well explained -- just what we need - new blood -- not only in TV - but in this forum - great credentials -- love to hear from someone who really knows -- I for one feel if I do not like the product or it is too much money I will not buy it. So maybe in June 2009 I will now longer have village.net. Some of us will complain and still pay -- good move you really showed them.

[Russ_Boston]

Nitehawk - He may have the best credentials in the world of networking but he (no offense) doesn't know the inside details of the cost of this product. And neither do we. That is why i think V7 has a point about it being a fuzzy area. Of course if you think it is too high of a price then just don't use it. No business is immune from consumer pressure. There are other ways to get tee times albeit not as robust or conveinent.

[EdV]

Nighthawk, thanks for the supportive words. I defiantly don’t have “the best credentials in the world of networking”, but I was very fortunate over the years to have studied under and learned from a few who really did. And Russ, I don’t know the actual cost of either system, but I never said I did. In fact, it was you who estimated the cost at 100K or less for the new system. All I did was challenge the notion that the fee for use of the new system was justified because it was so much more costly to operate than the old system.

The real question that should be answered is whether or not the Developer has the right to charge individuals for specific services that are an integral part of the Amenities, rather than making them part of the Monthly Amenities Fee that everyone shares.

Last week I uploaded a transposed copy of the Declaration of Restrictions for the Lake Sumter district which I had converted into a searchable PDF. Tony has posted that document in the Nuts and Bolts forum for reference purposes when discussing covenants and restrictions here in TOTV.

Section 4.1 – C of that contractual document states that:

“Each Owner agrees that as additional facilities are requested by the Owner, and the erection of such additional facilities is agreed to by the Developer, that upon a Vote of ½ of the Owners approving such additional facilities and commensurate charges therefore, the monthly Contractual Amenities Fee provided for herein shall be increased accordingly.”

Now the question is, what is the definition of a facility. Dictionary.com defines it as:

a. Something designed, built, installed, etc., to serve a specific function affording a convenience or service.
b. Something that permits the easier performance of an action, course of conduct, etc.

Now if that doesn’t describe the new on-line reservation system, I don’t know what does. I’m not a lawyer but I think that a reasonable argument could be made for the idea that charging a separate fee for the use of this new facility is a breach of the contract that the developer signed with each Villager.

But I also think that Villages07 is on the right track in suggesting that addressing this issue would be a good task for the soon to be, owner elected AAC representatives.

The main thing that is currently holding me back from becoming a “gonnabee” Villager is this issue of the Developer having the ability to charge whatever and whenever without some adequate form of checks and balances. So I will be very interested in following their progress.

[Russ_Boston]

Good points Ed.

You're right, I also have no idea of the cost. I would think that it is a tweaked version of a standard reservation system but who knows perhaps it is outrageously expensive.

[ldj1938]

When I worked in the golf division I was told that the reservation software is homegrown and they have had visitors from all over the world interested in how the system works. They said that there was no other system that could handle the number of golfers we have in the villages. The system has worked pretty well in the eight+ years I've been here. I'm not too excited about the cost, but I know they have employees and software and hardware to support. I will probably find the $8 a month to stay on the system. :sad:

[nitehawk]

Ed - Thanks for you imput - you have my vote if you ever run for something - I like the way you think:agree:

[aln]

SMALLDOG SEZ ............. true to most things in The Villages, let us see how much more we can get the cattle ( us frogs) to pay, after all you are living the millionair's life style aren't you ?? :boxing2:............ if there is one thing that detracts from every day life here it is the constant nickle dimeing of it all :ohdear: ........... so it is argued they upgraded didn't they ?? ....... and as alway us you must pay for convience :yuck:
What the hey, you've got it and they want it :cus:


I don't think the man/family/friends/employees that put the place together and maintain it are out to 'nickel n dime' us. YES they're here to make a profit and 50 cents per year increase is acceptable in my mind.

[Russ_Boston]

50 cents?

[aln]

Yup, last rate increase was 2003....50 cents PER YEAR.

[Golf-Tinker]

For Comcast subscribers, it's a bit more than a $ 0.50 increase. But I think the flexibility it gives us to make tee-time requests and see what's available is worth it.

[dinch]

My wife and I will be arriving on Nov 17 for a month. We are renting privately and staying in Sabal Chase. Question is this: My wife doesn't play golf but we both hope to enjoy the rest of the facilities at TV. I'll be wanting to play golf every morning at a number of the closest courses - Cane, Mallory Hills and Havana.
Will I be able to "just show up" and be put into a group?

My 89 year old dad is coming for a week at the end of November to stay with us. We'll be wanting to play the Executive courses while visiting. When a time is booked at the Exec courses, are 18 holes played or just 9? Will we both require Resident ID's, or just me? Can he use a "guest card?"

I've really been enjoying this forum for the past month or so. Thanks to everyone who contributes.

David

[earickis]

I having been using the phone tee time reservation system for almost four years. I've never had any difficulty getting tee times and once you use the system a couple of times it's quite easy. You don't have to wait until each menu item is finished to select your options, you can select them at any time during the message. I've never used the on-line system so I have no way to compare the two.

[gratton]

Its seems to me that we were paying 5 bucks a month for the past 5 years, now that there are more people using the system the rate should go down and not 60 percent higher, I bet if they had to prove the increase they couldn't do it, Its not that its not worth it but the nickel and dime-ing is what aggravates me. Thers no way that they had a 60 percent increase no way.

[EdV]

Well, I think there’s more going on here than meets the eye. According to previous posts in this thread by zcaveman, when Comcast bought out Clearlink they inherited a contractual agreement to subsidize the membership fees for any Comcast customer that requested a villages.net id through them.

Apparently that contract will end this coming June and Comcast has notified its customers that they do not intend to renew that contract. Clearly, this will result in a reduction of revenues since many Comcast customers would have requested membership simply because it was free even if they hardly ever used the service.

So this anticipated drop in the revenue stream, which could be significant, would likely be an important factor in the decision to raise the fee.

[aln]

DINCH.....

First, Welcome
But, just showing up at a golf course I would not advise unless you're prepared to wait.

You may get out in a group within 2 or 3 t-times but it could be longer.

My group of 8 which plays every Friday had a request for 6 courses between 8:30 and 11 this week and we were denied. Granted, if we had more courses and a longer time window we may have been successful but...

Anyway our 'leader' was able to find 2 consecutive times at 7:11 and 7:20 at Hilltop so that we got.

Anyway, it's best to request something upfront as you're success showing up will be hit and miss.
Enjoy

[dinch]

ALN, one further question, is a tee time on the executive courses for 9 holes only, or for 18.:2excited:

[Golf-Tinker]

Go to GolfTheVillages.com. You'll find most of your golf questions answered there.