Sand trap & Rakes

[MnGirl]

Went golfing Friday with some friends. My girlfriend hit into a sand trap and as she took the rake to her ball the ambassador drove up and explained to her how to put the rake back when she was done. We couldn't believe that he would interrupt her game, to explain something she knew. I'm sure he wouldn't have done this to a man. If there was a problem setting rakes, I think we all should have been told this when we checked in. He should have stayed on the cart path and observed, and if the rake was placed wrong, then said something.

[rubicon]

But how does the ambassador know what your girl knows? Haven't you played enough golf here to see why an ambassador would remind people about proper placement of rakes? Haven't you noticed the number of divots on the greens that so called knowing people ought to have known to repair?

Personally I am glad this ambassador took the time to educate. We need more ambassador contact to provide gentle reminders to golfers of golf course etiquette and ready play because frankly some folks are just plain clueless or rude.

[Cobh521]

OMG. Nothing but complaining in such a beautiful place. Stop and enjoy yourself. Good for the ambassador to remind someone of the proper placement of rake. If the ambassadors don't do anything people complain, if they do something people complain.

[Marathon Man]

What are you hoping to accomplish? I support the ambassadors, and wish more could be done to keep our courses in good playing condition. Yes, it is a little irritating when one of them approaches you with some gentle coaching. But try to understand what their side must be like.

[tomwed]

I think he is trying to fire people up. We're pretty predictable.

[MnGirl]

I support the ambassadors too, but they should know, that you should not interrupt play. He should have waited to see where she put the rake and then corrected her if need be. This was a complaint, not complaining. Enough said.

[karostay]

But how does the ambassador know what your girl knows? Haven't you played enough golf here to see why an ambassador would remind people about proper placement of rakes? Haven't you noticed the number of divots on the greens that so called knowing people ought to have known to repair?

Personally I am glad this ambassador took the time to educate. We need more ambassador contact to provide gentle reminders to golfers of golf course etiquette and ready play because frankly some folks are just plain clueless or rude.
I hope the ambassador also instructs golfers how to properly dispose of their cigarette and cigar butts . Instead of leaving them on the tee boxes and thrown in the sand traps

[Bay Kid]

Maybe he just wanted to get a closer look....

[golfing eagles]

Went golfing Friday with some friends. My girlfriend hit into a sand trap and as she took the rake to her ball the ambassador drove up and explained to her how to put the rake back when she was done. We couldn't believe that he would interrupt her game, to explain something she knew. I'm sure he wouldn't have done this to a man. If there was a problem setting rakes, I think we all should have been told this when we checked in. He should have stayed on the cart path and observed, and if the rake was placed wrong, then said something.

Unless she was leading the US Open by 3 shots, I don't see how this could be viewed as an "interruption" that would affect her play. The ambassadors get enough grief, they certainly don't need this. It would be different if started his comment at the top of her backswing. BTW, maybe your friend knew it, but you would surprised at how many don't. I live on a course and I am continually amazed at the lack of respect shown for some pretty decent courses. Some leave rakes in the trap, some outside, some with tines pointing up, some toss it into the middle of the trap---and then there's the 30% that don't feel they should have to rake at all----they're the same ones hacking through a protected wetland area looking for a $2 golf ball, don't repair pitch marks on green or fill fairway divots, and my pet peeve---sticking their putter head into the hole to flip the ball out---just look at the condition of the hole margins sometime. If it were up to me, I'd put a body cam on all these people and a dash cam on ambassadors carts. Sure, everyone is out to have fun at golf, but that doesn't mean you have to leave devastation in your wake.

[graciegirl]

I support the ambassadors too, but they should know, that you should not interrupt play. He should have waited to see where she put the rake and then corrected her if need be. This was a complaint, not complaining. Enough said.



MnGirl, had your companion been in the sand before on that round? And perhaps not placed the rake where it should be?


It is unusual, but not disturbing. Why would the fact that she is female be a factor? I have golfed for over forty years and the Marshal's would marshal both sexes if they needed it. We need MORE marshaling here but the ambassadors hands are tied.

[golfing eagles]

I hope the ambassador also instructs golfers how to properly dispose of their cigarette and cigar butts . Instead of leaving them on the tee boxes and thrown in the sand traps

Or worse yet, a cigar butt on the green. Hard to know if it is a crane turd or coyote poop:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Challenger]

The condition of bunkers and greens is so bad on the exec courses that I now roll or place the ball after almost every shot. I personally know of no one who keeps a handicap on these courses, so why not end the frustrations and place the ball in a reasonable , playable location and end( some of) my frustrations. I do however rake and fix 2 or 3 ballmarks on each hole.

[tomwed]

We need MORE marshaling here but the ambassadors hands are tied.
That's why it's important to put the rakes back for them.

[graciegirl]

That's why it's important to put the rakes back for them.



When I meet you in person Tomwed, I am going to bop you upsidethehead before I hug you.


Who do you credit, (or blame) for your sense of humor?

[DeanFL]

My 2cents:

At every (esp Exec) Starter House window - post a short Top Ten list of etiquette/rules. Easy to read and to the point - esp pace of play etc.

We've been in TV for 2 years now and still get confused where to turn in for particular Starter Houses for courses. Why can't TV have small street signs at the entrance (from the main St) for each course with their name? They could be very attractive, helpful, and Market all the avail courses to visitors/potential TV buyers.

We find most Ambassadors very cordial - some pointing out pace of play etc. My favorite was yesterday on Bonita Pass - after teeing off on #2, he stopped us on the path pulling up to the green "Hey you can't get a hole-in-one here - someone already did this morning". He saw my drive to 14" from the hole... I laughed, and yes, made the birdie...

[Bonny]

Geez, cut the ambassador some slack. It's not like there's a million dollars on the line. Have fun, laugh and just enjoy life and the fact that you are still able to get out and enjoy golf. :thumbup:

[graciegirl]

Geez, cut people some slack. It's not like there's a million dollars on the line. Have fun, laugh and just enjoy life and the fact that you are still able to get out and enjoy golf. :thumbup:



Our Bonnie has it right, plus a good heart, AND she is so lovely too. She is the poster girl for The Villages.

[Bonny]

Our Bonnie has it right, plus a good heart, AND she is so lovely too. She is the poster girl for The Villages.
You're a sweetheart.
We have lost so many very close friends this year and it's been heartbreaking. Many of them were so sudden. It helps put things in perspective. Life is so short and we never know when our time will come. Might as well get as much fun in as I can. :D

[tomwed]

When I meet you in person Tomwed, I am going to bop you upsidethehead before I hug you.


Who do you credit, (or blame) for your sense of humor?
My Uncle Eddy and Uncle Jimmy. On my mom's side we would have 10 cousin birthday parties a year besides Christmas and summer weekends in a couple of old trailers in the pine barrens. Dad's drank, mom's cooked and nobody talked politics or religion. As a kid if you could make my grandmother laugh with a school story, which wasn't hard to do, it would feel so good you kept trying to think of new ones. And if everyone laughed it must have felt like home run feels. I can only guess. Years later everyone tried to make my mom laugh.

Now only a couple of times a year my sibs, kids, nieces and nephews get together and we still try to make each other laugh with stories. It feels the same but twice a year is not enough. I wish they were here.

[bagboy]

Went golfing Friday with some friends. My girlfriend hit into a sand trap and as she took the rake to her ball the ambassador drove up and explained to her how to put the rake back when she was done. We couldn't believe that he would interrupt her game, to explain something she knew. I'm sure he wouldn't have done this to a man. If there was a problem setting rakes, I think we all should have been told this when we checked in. He should have stayed on the cart path and observed, and if the rake was placed wrong, then said something.

This seems like one of those times that it's just best to say thanks, and move on. I seriously doubt the ambassador meant to be offensive or sexist, and meant well by his actions.

[tomwed]

We've been in TV for 2 years now and still get confused where to turn in for particular Starter Houses for courses.
I use to get lost too. My idea was to put t a black pickle ball on the highest point on a street sign that leads to a starter shack or another pickleball. They look like big golf wiffle balls. Unless you were looking for one I'll bet no one would even notice it.

[rubicon]

Geez, cut people some slack. It's not like there's a million dollars on the line. Have fun, laugh and just enjoy life and the fact that you are still able to get out and enjoy golf. :thumbup:

Bonny, in all due respect we have far too many ambassadors that cut people too much slack...that's why golfers sometimes hit two three balls at a time, why they socialize around the tee boxes or greens, its why they spend an inordinate amount of time searching for a tee or ball, why they use that "horrifying phrase"I ain't giving up as they strike their upteenth shot. Its why a 1 hr and 20 minute round turn into 2hrs plus. Its why cigarette, cigar butts , peanut shells, etc end up on the tee boxes or around the greens.

Its how and why a beautiful place can turn ugly pretty quickly

But then I am one of those folks who just always complains, like taxpayers who shudder to see the frivolous manner in which their hard earned dollars are spent.

[Bonny]

Bonny, in all due respect we have far too many ambassadors that cut people too much slack...that's why golfers sometimes hit two three balls at a time, why they socialize around the tee boxes or greens, its why they spend an inordinate amount of time searching for a tee or ball, why they use that "horrifying phrase"I ain't giving up as they strike their upteenth shot. Its why a 1 hr and 20 minute round turn into 2hrs plus. Its why cigarette, cigar butts , peanut shells, etc end up on the tee boxes or around the greens.

Its how and why a beautiful place can turn ugly pretty quickly

But then I am one of those folks who just always complains, like taxpayers who shudder to see the frivolous manner in which their hard earned dollars are spent.
I meant cut the ambassador some slack.

[Marathon Man]

Geez, cut the ambassador some slack. It's not like there's a million dollars on the line. Have fun, laugh and just enjoy life and the fact that you are still able to get out and enjoy golf. :thumbup:

Those words are what is needed on a sign.

[justjim]

I get it. Ambassador's are damned if they do (whatever they do) and damned if they don't. It can be a fun job being an Ambassador but also sometimes a tough job.

[graciegirl]

I get it. Ambassador's are damned if they do (whatever they do) and damned if they don't. It can be a fun job being an Ambassador but also sometimes a tough job.



ALWAYS a tough job here. I would last about five minutes in any job here, serving the public. Maybe four.


I appreciate those who work with us old grouches.

[ajbrown]

I support the ambassadors too, but they should know, that you should not interrupt play. He should have waited to see where she put the rake and then corrected her if need be. This was a complaint, not complaining. Enough said.

Based on the what you have told us, I agree with you 100%. The issue is we cannot know why the ambassador did this?

If we had that information it may make perfect sense... will never know...

[tomwed]

This is a great thread. It's about nothing but this time, so far, no one is angry.

[John_W]

Did this incident with the ambassador happen at Havana? I never forgot about three years ago I was playing at Havana on Kenya and was joined by a couple in their 50's from California. We had a nice conversation going for about a dozen holes, they were on a lifestyle visit and were trying to decide between Florida and Arizona and the west coast. They were both decent golfers and on our back nine the lady was in a sand trap. An ambassador rolled up and told the lady in a sort of stern manner, lay your rake inside the trap with the handle toward the edge and began to show her. She must of talked about that incident for the next 2 or 3 holes. I thought, I've never seen an ambassador talk this way to anyone, and many times I wished they had, and now this person is probably going to always remember this. I know I did, and that was three years ago.

The funny thing is, I started playing golf in 1962 and I know my way around a golf course. I took the Good Golf School when I arrived here five years ago, and the way a rake is positioned is the only thing I really learned at that school and remembered afterwards.

[MnGirl]

Just for clarification, this happened at Truman, the woman has played golf for years, knows the rules, and this was her one and only sand trap. I never have problems with ambassadors, but this guy left the cart path, drove over 100 ft. to the sand trap and proceeded to tell her how to put the rake away. Fortunately she is a full time resident and knows it was just him being a jerk. If you don't see it this way, that's fine, maybe you had to be there.

[buzzy]

Guess I should start carrying my own rake.

[dotti105]

I can't help but wonder if he had encountered several others earlier in the day who did not rake the sand trap or bother to place the rake. I think those guys must deal with a lot of flack on some days.

Maybe he had endured his share of jerks that day and just wanted to ensure that it didn't happen again.

I know I have encountered traps where there were 2 rakes side by side and none on the opposite sides of the trap. And we have all encountered traps that had not been raked.

At the end of the day, the Ambassadors go from hole to hole cleaning up the trash, repairing the divots, straightening the rakes and raking the traps when the "entitled" couldn't be bothered.

He probably just had a bad day. 'Tis the season!

[tomwed]

Do they send out the tractors to rake the traps every morning before the tee off times on the champs? I don't think they do on the execs.

[golfing eagles]

Do they send out the tractors to rake the traps every morning before the tee off times on the champs? I don't think they do on the execs.

they're out every AM on EP, at least in the trap in my backyard

[rubicon]

I get it. Ambassador's are damned if they do (whatever they do) and damned if they don't. It can be a fun job being an Ambassador but also sometimes a tough job.

Hi justjim: I don't know if ambassadors are not allowed to exercise the duties of a golf ranger/ambassador or if they cop out by claiming that they are told to refrain but what use is an ambassador if s/he can't act like one.

Why is that the rules of etiquette are not managed to remain in play? On executive courses the rule is 9 minute per hole. Some folks may not be able to manage that because of some physical deficit but certainly not all?............

bottom line is that executive courses are becoming a "no man's land"

Personal Best Regards:

[graciegirl]

Hi justjim: I don't know if ambassadors are not allowed to exercise the duties of a golf ranger/ambassador or if they cop out by claiming that they are told to refrain but what use is an ambassador if s/he can't act like one.

Why is that the rules of etiquette are not managed to remain in play? On executive courses the rule is 9 minute per hole. Some folks may not be able to manage that because of some physical deficit but certainly not all?............

bottom line is that executive courses are becoming a "no man's land"

Personal Best Regards:


You asked and I will speak my thoughts AGAIN on the same subject. I think that the reason is that;


The people who made the rules and enforce them think that people over the age of 55 should know how to behave as adults. They know that trying to change them is futile and will only lead to ugly confrontations. Due to the upbringing of certain parts of the country, the confrontations may be quicker, more direct, and continue to the point of having to bring force. The people who planned this community did not wish to behave like parents or jailers or cops.


People from your neck of the woods Rubicon, are rarely to blame for lack of manners or acting in a selfish way or appearing selfish. They may have all of these traits inwardly, but their mothers straightened them out before the age of five. Mouthing off was not considered a right or encouraged in the area you grew up. Nor was ignoring the rules. I am very sure you have not ignored a stop sign in your whole life...and I love you for it.


Incoming.....

[biker1]

Please go back and reread the original post. According to the post, it doesn't appear that the ambassador was making a comment about incorrect behavior as the person was still in the trap with a rake. I have been playing golf for 50 years and have never seen a ranger/ambassador preemptively correct someone. If the person in question left the trap without raking or left the rake in the wrong position I could see making a comment. That doesn't appear to be what happened. Assuming someone is going to do something wrong and then preemptively correcting them hardly seems like part of the job.




Really ? Cause someone is doing their job ? :ohdear:

[golfing eagles]

Please go back and reread the original post. According to the post, it doesn't appear that the ambassador was making a comment about incorrect behavior as the person was still in the trap with a rake. I have been playing golf for 50 years and have never seen a ranger/ambassador preemptively correct someone. If the person in question left the trap without raking or left the rake in the wrong position I could see making a comment. That doesn't appear to be what happened. Assuming someone is going to do something wrong and then preemptively correcting them hardly seems like part of the job.

I think Dustin Johnson at the PGA at Whistling Straits 5 years ago on the final hole would have appreciated the marshal pointing out the correct sand trap procedures BEFORE he grounded his club!!!!

Maybe this person had the potential based on location in the trap to place the rake where it would take a lot of time and raking to correctly place it "after the fact"

Why do people assume the ambassadors are idiots and ignorant of the game of golf?

[biker1]

Hardly a similar situation with Dustin Johnson. By the way, the marshals are not responsible for preemptively reminding PGA players of the rules. Dustin Johnson could have asked for a clarification but didn't. Also, the fact that those sandy areas were considered sand traps was communicated to the players at the start of the tournament.

In this case, why did the ambassador apparently think the player was ignorant of the game of golf? I try to assume people know what they are doing until they demonstrate otherwise. The ambassadors should do so also. From the information presented by the original poster, that doesn't appear to be what happened. Since neither of us were there, I would suggest that further speculation is futile.

At many courses, the starter will give "friendly reminders" to each group before they tee off. These are typically things such as fix your ball marks, fill divots with sand, rake the traps, which holes are cart path only, maintain pace of play, etc. Further comments should be limited to when actual infractions are observed.


I think Dustin Johnson at the PGA at Whistling Straits 5 years ago on the final hole would have appreciated the marshal pointing out the correct sand trap procedures BEFORE he grounded his club!!!!

Maybe this person had the potential based on location in the trap to place the rake where it would take a lot of time and raking to correctly place it "after the fact"

Why do people assume the ambassadors are idiots and ignorant of the game of golf?

[golfing eagles]

Hardly a similar situation with Dustin Johnson. By the way, the marshals are not responsible for preemptively reminding PGA players of the rules. Dustin Johnson could have asked for a clarification but didn't. Also, the fact that those sandy areas were considered sand traps was communicated to the players at the start of the tournament.

In this case, why did the ambassador apparently think the player was ignorant of the game of golf? I try to assume people know what they are doing until they demonstrate otherwise. The ambassadors should do so also. From the information presented by the original poster, that doesn't appear to be what happened. Since neither of us were there, I would suggest that further speculation is futile.

At many courses, the starter will give "friendly reminders" to each group before they tee off. These are typically things such as fix your ball marks, fill divots with sand, rake the traps, which holes are cart path only, maintain pace of play, etc. Further comments should be limited to when actual infractions are observed.

All true, but I always wondered why the rules official was on the left side of the fairway with a player that was out of contention when the leader was 50 yds. right of the fairway. A rules official is permitted to give facts, and could tell the player "That is a bunker"--he doesn't HAVE TO. I can understand DJ getting caught up in the moment despite multiple warnings posted about the quantity and nature of the traps on that course, but what was HIS CADDY thinking?
As far as pre-emptive reminders at TV courses go, I just don't see the harm. I've played a long time, played competitively when I was younger including some pro events (not PGA tour:1rotfl::1rotfl:), and I would never react negatively to such a reminder from an ambassador---a simple thank you suffices

[biker1]

An analogous situation would be the ambassador driving over to me in the middle of the fairway before I hit my approach shot and telling me that I need to fill in my divot. Or how about the ambassador driving up to me before I hit my approach shot and telling me that I need to fix my ball mark on the green. Most golfers know these things and do them. The ambassadors should say something when these actions are not taken. I think we have beaten this horse to death.

All true, but I always wondered why the rules official was on the left side of the fairway with a player that was out of contention when the leader was 50 yds. right of the fairway. A rules official is permitted to give facts, and could tell the player "That is a bunker"--he doesn't HAVE TO. I can understand DJ getting caught up in the moment despite multiple warnings posted about the quantity and nature of the traps on that course, but what was HIS CADDY thinking?
As far as pre-emptive reminders at TV courses go, I just don't see the harm. I've played a long time, played competitively when I was younger including some pro events (not PGA tour:1rotfl::1rotfl:), and I would never react negatively to such a reminder from an ambassador---a simple thank you suffices

[Bogie Shooter]

An analogous situation would be the ambassador driving over to me in the middle of the fairway before I hit my approach shot and telling me that I need to fill in my divot. Or how about the ambassador driving up to me before I hit my approach shot and telling me that I need to fix my ball mark on the green. Most golfers know these things and do them. The ambassadors should say something when these actions are not taken. I think we have beaten this horse to death.
Oh no.....................you have only just begun. (46 posts).

[golfing eagles]

An analogous situation would be the ambassador driving over to me in the middle of the fairway before I hit my approach shot and telling me that I need to fill in my divot. Or how about the ambassador driving up to me before I hit my approach shot and telling me that I need to fix my ball mark on the green. Most golfers know these things and do them. The ambassadors should say something when these actions are not taken. I think we have beaten this horse to death.

Well, we've probably beaten it to death on TOTV. But if it were truly dead, I wouldn't have to fix 4 or 5 ball marks on every green, fill 4 or 5 divots on every fairway, and rake out 2 or 3 areas in every trap I get into, would I?

[biker1]

Yes, this was clearly a fail by his caddy. The marshal may have been asked for some clarification by the other player. The fact that the other player is out of contention is not a factor. All players have equal access to the marshals.

All true, but I always wondered why the rules official was on the left side of the fairway with a player that was out of contention when the leader was 50 yds. right of the fairway. A rules official is permitted to give facts, and could tell the player "That is a bunker"--he doesn't HAVE TO. I can understand DJ getting caught up in the moment despite multiple warnings posted about the quantity and nature of the traps on that course, but what was HIS CADDY thinking?
As far as pre-emptive reminders at TV courses go, I just don't see the harm. I've played a long time, played competitively when I was younger including some pro events (not PGA tour:1rotfl::1rotfl:), and I would never react negatively to such a reminder from an ambassador---a simple thank you suffices

[biker1]

I never said bad behavior is not a problem on the courses. I always come back without sand and fix many ball marks also. How to instill better on-course behavior is a mystery.

Well, we've probably beaten it to death on TOTV. But if it were truly dead, I wouldn't have to fix 4 or 5 ball marks on every green, fill 4 or 5 divots on every fairway, and rake out 2 or 3 areas in every trap I get into, would I?

[golfing eagles]

Internet shaming via webcam?

[bagboy]

Re: Whistling Straights and Dustin Johnson. I know the PGA is going to stage another major there. And I know all players are made aware of the course rules. I just remember watching that happen and thinking... seriously, they call all these thousands of little pieces of sand a hazard? And they allowed the galleries to stomp all over them throughout the week. And this is a major ? I am for sure in the minority but I think WS is an unacceptable venue for a PGA event, yet alone a major.
As for our ambassadors, some may have certain things they focus on. Some pay attention to cart path rules, some divots, some hazard areas, etc. Maybe this ambassador has a thing for rakes and traps. He could have been less than cordial and even jumped the gun a bit. I just think it's best to not take it personal.

[tomwed]

If anyone else went to Catholic grammar school you know exactly what to say. If the ambassador gives you any kinda lip, all you gotta say is "Yes Sister, it will never happen again".

And if this is news to you, make sure your not smiling or the ambassador will smack that smile right off your face.

[Gerald]

I don't see a problem with an Ambassador coming over to give information. Oh I bet she was in another sand area that the ambassador sore and he was really talking to her because of that one. Best of all you can just keep complaining as much as you like.

[golfing eagles]

I don't see a problem with an Ambassador coming over to give information. Oh I bet she was in another sand area that the ambassador sore and he was really talking to her because of that one. Best of all you can just keep complaining as much as you like.

OK, I'll duck for cover on this one:

Maybe the golfer hit a bad shot (or 2 or 3 or 7) after the ambassador's comment, and thus it MUST have been the ambassador's fault. Hence the tone of the OP. I should remember to add "ambassador distracted me" to my golfer's excuse towel---along with "too hot, too cold, too windy, not windy enough, too wet, rough too long, the sun bothered me, a duck quacked in my backswing, etc., etc., etc.

[karostay]

Or worse yet, a cigar butt on the green. Hard to know if it is a crane turd or coyote poop:1rotfl::1rotfl:

Light it and inhale let us know:wave::wave::wave:

[golfing eagles]

Light it and inhale let us know:wave::wave::wave:

You first:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[drcar]

MnGirl, had your companion been in the sand before on that round? And perhaps not placed the rake where it should be?


It is unusual, but not disturbing. Why would the fact that she is female be a factor? I have golfed for over forty years and the Marshal's would marshal both sexes if they needed it. We need MORE marshaling here but the ambassadors hands are tied.

Graciegirl, I have to say I love your posts, but the ambassadors hands are NOT tied. They have a procedure to follow. They may on their own move players and report players who are not following the rules. To many people on here think that just because they do not see action, AT ONCE, they think there is no action. Sometimes actions take place behind the scenes instead of creating a scene. Everyone can be tracked and dealt with. Contrary to the belief on Talk of the Villages, no Ambassadors will be fire for doing their job, that includes moving golfers if needed. But most golfers only understand WHAT they want to believe, sometime things are beyond control.

[tomwed]

that just because they do not see action, AT ONCE, they think there is no action. Sometimes actions take place behind the scenes instead of creating a scene.
Now this is interesting. You must be an undercover ambassador. What goes on behind the scenes that you can talk about?
[i'll play along]

I thought you were kidding but now I'm not so sure. I can see where a troublemaker could get a reputation that gets shared. I would understand that.

[DonH57]

Can you be placed on double secret probation by an ambassador? I heard it somewhere.

[golfing eagles]

Can you be placed on double secret probation by an ambassador? I heard it somewhere.

No, only by Dean Wormer

[DonH57]

No, only by Dean Wormer

Yes indeed.:coolsmiley:

[graciegirl]

Now I have to go look up Dean Wormer. This place adds to my information all of the time.

[tuccillo]

You won't appreciate it unless you see the movie: Animal House.

Now I have to go look up Dean Wormer. This place adds to my information all of the time.

[tomwed]

Now I have to go look up Dean Wormer. This place adds to my information all of the time.
Here you go:
v=1tfK_3XK4CI

[biker1]

I believe the original poster said that was the first and only sand trap she had been in.

I don't see a problem with an Ambassador coming over to give information. Oh I bet she was in another sand area that the ambassador sore and he was really talking to her because of that one. Best of all you can just keep complaining as much as you like.