Union card check legislation

[Guest]

BBQMAN mentioned in a post about the proposed "card check" bill which is sponsored by President elect Obama and I think it may be worthy of its own thread.

The bill basically allows for the elimination of union elections and provides that once the union organizers get a majority of signatures on a petition that company is unionized. It was pushed hard by the unions of course, because I can tell you from personal experience there is a HUGE difference between a secret ballot and a petition !

What is scary to me about this is that there is a real financial impact we will feel in this country as a result of this legislation.....prices will rise and so will unemployment.

As with so much in the union world, 78% of current union members favor the current system but the "leaders" do not and have spent a ton of money in the past election to try and insure this gets passed.

I think this is MAJOR....it means that the pressure brought to bear by union organizers will be enough to unionize whatever target company there is. Watch out Walmart and Target, for two and watch out for the end of any low prices !!!!

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2008/11/tuesday_was_a_banner_day_for_u.html

[Guest]

I heard someone on Fox News say that campaigning is about "black and white" while governing is "shades of grey". Here is one issue where, as President, Obama will have to take a pass. Who wants to go on record as being against secert ballots? If this happens it will be seen as a payoff to the unions for their $upport. Remember, this is still a right of center country.

[Guest]

I heard someone on Fox News say that campaigning is about "black and white" while governing is "shades of grey". Here is one issue where, as President, Obama will have to take a pass. Who wants to go on record as being against secert ballots? If this happens it will be seen as a payoff to the unions for their $upport. Remember, this is still a right of center country.

He, President elect Obama, just does not support it....he is adamantly for it and I was under the impression that he sponsored the bill !!!

In any case, another link and some quotes from the link...

"We're ready to play offense for organized labor. It's time we had a president who didn't choke saying the word 'union.' A president who strengthens our unions by letting them do what they do best: organize our workers," Mr. Obama told the AFL-CIO in Philadelphia on April 2.

"I will make it the law of the land when I'm president of the United States," Mr. Obama told the labor federation.

The bill is "a poorly-disguised attempt by the labor unions to swell their ranks at the expense of workers' rights and employers.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/31/obama-supports-union-organizing/

[Guest]

in Louisville, KY.
In 1965 there were 11,00 employees, 6 huge manufacturing buildings (one for each major appliance)....a 1.5 million square foot warehouse. Lead market share in almost every product. And of course fully unionized.
That 11,00 grew to almost 24,000 in the late 70's. The pride was these were some of the few products still designed and made in America. Satellite plants in Milwaukee, Ft. Smith , etc.
More strikes than you can shake a stick at....sweepers in the 70's were pushing $20 per hour!!!!!!!!

Fast forward....all those buildings are still there. Of course they are empty. All the satellite plants are gone.
The total employment in Louisville is less than 5,000....all office and administration.
There is NO manufacturing. And this past summer Jeff Immelt (GE/CEO) announced the appliance business was for sale.

Not so slowly, the union wages drove this multi billion, leadership role in appliances in the world, bastion of manufacturing excellence into oblivion.

The unions have had the same effect on the automotive business over the years, almost eliminating manufacturing except for the remaining assembly plants.

I was in the machine tool business as well and at their peak there were more than 900 machine tool manufacturing companies in the US. In the late 80's that number was down to less than 200!!!!!

Now that the union has been suffering from lack of membership, is it any wonder they are sharpening their sights on retail and service businesses.
And yes, that too will deteriorate into oblivion as well.

I guess union executives are a lot like politicians...they are not in it for the people.

This country was always able to be a world leader because of the manufacturing base. It is now in the throws of becoming a retail and service provider only.

So when people talk about the paltry number of lost jobs that are so news worthy in the media these days.....where was everybody while all these other businesses were being wiped out??? Never mind it was a rhetorical question.

No manufacturing....increasing dependence on manufacturing from outside the US....increasing dependence on foreign energy suppliers.

This country has been on the skids for the last 40 years and nobody has done squat about it. So if there is legislation to help the unions then y'all better pay attention to who IS supporting it.

I feel sorry for my grandchildren, great grand children and their continuences because they will never ever enjoy the quality of life we all have....nor will they live in a country that was as standing tall as we had.

There were certainly more talented leaders at the helm in the past 40 years.....and they ALL....they ALL let it happen!

Why should anybody believe the current round of lip moving politicians are going to change anything?

Sorry for the lengthy speel but next to the silent majority my next favorite subject is what unions have done to manufacturing in this country.

BTK

[Guest]

in Louisville, KY.
In 1965 there were 11,00 employees, 6 huge manufacturing buildings (one for each major appliance)....a 1.5 million square foot warehouse. Lead market share in almost every product. And of course fully unionized.
That 11,00 grew to almost 24,000 in the late 70's. The pride was these were some of the few products still designed and made in America. Satellite plants in Milwaukee, Ft. Smith , etc.
More strikes than you can shake a stick at....sweepers in the 70's were pushing $20 per hour!!!!!!!!

Fast forward....all those buildings are still there. Of course they are empty. All the satellite plants are gone.
The total employment in Louisville is less than 5,000....all office and administration.
There is NO manufacturing. And this past summer Jeff Immelt (GE/CEO) announced the appliance business was for sale.

Not so slowly, the union wages drove this multi billion, leadership role in appliances in the world, bastion of manufacturing excellence into oblivion.

The unions have had the same effect on the automotive business over the years, almost eliminating manufacturing except for the remaining assembly plants.

I was in the machine tool business as well and at their peak there were more than 900 machine tool manufacturing companies in the US. In the late 80's that number was down to less than 200!!!!!

Now that the union has been suffering from lack of membership, is it any wonder they are sharpening their sights on retail and service businesses.
And yes, that too will deteriorate into oblivion as well.

I guess union executives are a lot like politicians...they are not in it for the people.

This country was always able to be a world leader because of the manufacturing base. It is now in the throws of becoming a retail and service provider only.

So when people talk about the paltry number of lost jobs that are so news worthy in the media these days.....where was everybody while all these other businesses were being wiped out??? Never mind it was a rhetorical question.

No manufacturing....increasing dependence on manufacturing from outside the US....increasing dependence on foreign energy suppliers.

This country has been on the skids for the last 40 years and nobody has done squat about it. So if there is legislation to help the unions then y'all better pay attention to who IS supporting it.

I feel sorry for my grandchildren, great grand children and their continuences because they will never ever enjoy the quality of life we all have....nor will they live in a country that was as standing tall as we had.

There were certainly more talented leaders at the helm in the past 40 years.....and they ALL....they ALL let it happen!

Why should anybody believe the current round of lip moving politicians are going to change anything?

Sorry for the lengthy speel but next to the silent majority my next favorite subject is what unions have done to manufacturing in this country.

BTK
What I don't like about the "no secret ballot" concept is the intimidation factor that comes with the "raise your hand" vote. Union organizing brings with it high emotion and a "you're either with us or against us" attitude at the neighbor-to-neighbor and work-station-to-work-station level. The secret ballot mitigates much of that intimidation.

[Guest]

As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the question was too obvious to answer. Maybe not.

[Guest]

:agree::agree::agree:As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the answer was too obvious to answer. Maybe not.

[Guest]

I am a second generation member of organized construction union labor. I served as Vice President and on the Executive board, finance and negotiating committees in a 17 year span as an officer of my local. I still carry a book (union card) into retirement, so I do have background in this subject.

The days of Jimmy Hoffa and strong arm characters saying things like “you’se guys” are a thing of the past. Hoffa was corrupt and a rogue but has zero bearing on the overall organized labor movement. Strikers with clubs beating sweat shop owners senseless and vice versa are also history.

Union meetings are run following parliamentary procedure. Simple votes are taken by a show of hands but controversial matters are by secret ballot. ANY union member can request a secret ballot on any issue brought to a vote. It is highly unlikely a rank and file member will let legislation like what has been discussed become reality at the local level, no matter what national organizers propose. It goes against all the rank and file stands for. I agree with Number 6 – Obama won’t endorse legislation that opposes the secret ballot process.

It is easy to blame unions for the ills of business and corporate failures. After all, a union member with a whopping $50k a year salary, pension and health benefits – an excess of wealth showered upon a mere worker! When an economy flounders and a product such as a new auto is not in demand the very first reaction is to blame labor. They have GOT to be at fault. But there are always two sides to every story. Mismanaged corporations and excesses also play a part in their struggles. Fear and greed are the enemies of all.

I remember watching a late night talk show years ago, and Barry Goldwater was one of the guests. He talked about a plumber coming to his home and said he was charged $25 an hour (remember, this was years past). He went on to say that NO plumber is worth $25 an hour. This from a man who was at that time making a high 5 figure salary from his senate position alone. It pretty much sums up the way some feel about labor, especially if they are organized.

The idea of taking away the secret ballot when voting on union representation is comparable to the constant claim by the NRA that candidate so and so is going to take away our guns and Second Amendment rights. It is just political banter that never materializes. “You’se guys” need not worry – this just ain’t gonna happen.

[Guest]

He, President elect Obama, just does not support it....he is adamantly for it and I was under the impression that he sponsored the bill !!!

In any case, another link and some quotes from the link...

"We're ready to play offense for organized labor. It's time we had a president who didn't choke saying the word 'union.' A president who strengthens our unions by letting them do what they do best: organize our workers," Mr. Obama told the AFL-CIO in Philadelphia on April 2.

"I will make it the law of the land when I'm president of the United States," Mr. Obama told the labor federation.

The bill is "a poorly-disguised attempt by the labor unions to swell their ranks at the expense of workers' rights and employers.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/31/obama-supports-union-organizing/That's all well and good.... but when union demands and benefits drive a company into bankruptcy (general motors) DO NOT come crying to the taxpayers for a 50 billion bailout... 1/2 of which is to fund unrealistic health care benefits. That is insane and we need to stop the insanity.

[Guest]

There is nothing wrong with labor organizing into unions. I just believe that labor organizing, as well as management hire-fire, should not be done with even the potential of intimidation. That just puts the little guy at a big disadvantage from the beginning.

Whether it's the assemblyline worker seeking $5/hour more in benefits or the major league ballplayer seeking a $5million raise per season, labor is not wrong in trying to get as much for its services as it can - just like management setting its porduct prices for as high as it can, or the major league team owner who keeps raising ticket prices until folks just won't buy them anymore.

Just because some locals may still hold onto secret ballot doesn't mean all will, because what works oftentimes is the practice instead of what's right. That's why I hope whoever prompted this open-ballot idea doesn't get it.

[Guest]

As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the answer was too obvious to answer. Maybe not.


The question is.....do you think there should not be a secret election ??

That is the question...please...would love to hear your comments on this as a long time union member.

My experience, albeit on the other side, is that there is quite a difference between the petitions and the election and there IS intimidation, whether intentional or not !!!!

[Guest]

I am a second generation member of organized construction union labor. I served as Vice President and on the Executive board, finance and negotiating committees in a 17 year span as an officer of my local. I still carry a book (union card) into retirement, so I do have background in this subject.

The days of Jimmy Hoffa and strong arm characters saying things like “you’se guys” are a thing of the past. Hoffa was corrupt and a rogue but has zero bearing on the overall organized labor movement. Strikers with clubs beating sweat shop owners senseless and vice versa are also history.

Union meetings are run following parliamentary procedure. Simple votes are taken by a show of hands but controversial matters are by secret ballot. ANY union member can request a secret ballot on any issue brought to a vote. It is highly unlikely a rank and file member will let legislation like what has been discussed become reality at the local level, no matter what national organizers propose. It goes against all the rank and file stands for. I agree with Number 6 – Obama won’t endorse legislation that opposes the secret ballot process.

It is easy to blame unions for the ills of business and corporate failures. After all, a union member with a whopping $50k a year salary, pension and health benefits – an excess of wealth showered upon a mere worker! When an economy flounders and a product such as a new auto is not in demand the very first reaction is to blame labor. They have GOT to be at fault. But there are always two sides to every story. Mismanaged corporations and excesses also play a part in their struggles. Fear and greed are the enemies of all.

I remember watching a late night talk show years ago, and Barry Goldwater was one of the guests. He talked about a plumber coming to his home and said he was charged $25 an hour (remember, this was years past). He went on to say that NO plumber is worth $25 an hour. This from a man who was at that time making a high 5 figure salary from his senate position alone. It pretty much sums up the way some feel about labor, especially if they are organized.

The idea of taking away the secret ballot when voting on union representation is comparable to the constant claim by the NRA that candidate so and so is going to take away our guns and Second Amendment rights. It is just political banter that never materializes. “You’se guys” need not worry – this just ain’t gonna happen.


You call it political banter....our President Elect says this...


"We're ready to play offense for organized labor. It's time we had a president who didn't choke saying the word 'union.' A president who strengthens our unions by letting them do what they do best: organize our workers," Mr. Obama told the AFL-CIO in Philadelphia on April 2.

"I will make it the law of the land when I'm president of the United States," Mr. Obama told the labor federation.

[Guest]

As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the question was too obvious to answer. Maybe not. That's wonderful as long as MY taxes don not have to support YOUR pension and health benefits through a bailout. If Detroit can produce a quality product that everyone wants and can afford to provide the benefits you have, wonderful, However, if the benefit package bankrupts the company do you believe the American taxpayer should pay you benefits?

[Guest]

That's wonderful as long as MY taxes don not have to support YOUR pension and health benefits through a bailout. If Detroit can produce a quality product that everyone wants and can afford to provide the benefits you have, wonderful, However, if the benefit package bankrupts the company do you believe the American taxpayer should pay you benefits?

RS...you have captured the essence of the question succinctly. I would like to see your question an Bucco's secret election question answered.

I would also ask why do foreign car manufacturers building cars in America seem to be feeling less pain and selling more cars?

[Guest]

My understanding of the Union card check issue is the National Right to Work allows for 2 types of votes. The first type would be a secret ballot. However, because of intimidation within the workplace the workers may choose to have the government come in a validate the results. The is the not secret ballot.

I think we should all understand that many of these Free Trade agreements put our workers at risk because they don't impose the same standards on the trading partners that we have here. This is just a race to the bottom of the wage pool.

I am trying to check...but I have visited hospitals in Japan and I am pretty sure they have government mandated hospitals along with a pricier private hospital system.

[Guest]

How is there more intimidation with a secret ballot than the card check system? And how do free trade agreements come into the discussion?

[Guest]

I am a labor attorney who is a former National Labor Relations Board attorney and former Director of Labor Relations for a major company and currently teach Labor Relations in an MBA program.
Under the current law, a union can petition the Naitonal Labor Relations Board to conduct a secret ballot election if it has a showing of interest, usually signed cards, from 30% of the employees. The NLRB conducts the election under pristine secret ballot methods. the proposed law would allow for a second process for the NLRB to certify a union, through showing that the union has over half of the employees signing to indicate their membership in the union. The "card check" is a key part of the proposed legislation. That said, there is now a lot of speculation that the proposed law will probably be amended to not have this "card check" provision but to rather require the NLRB to conduct the secret ballot elections in a much quicker process, maybe within days of a petition being filed.
Please post any other questions on this matter and I would be happy to offer responses. I will not take sides on this issue.

[Guest]

I am a labor attorney who is a former National Labor Relations Board attorney and former Director of Labor Relations for a major company and currently teach Labor Relations in an MBA program.
Under the current law, a union can petition the Naitonal Labor Relations Board to conduct a secret ballot election if it has a showing of interest, usually signed cards, from 30% of the employees. The NLRB conducts the election under pristine secret ballot methods. the proposed law would allow for a second process for the NLRB to certify a union, through showing that the union has over half of the employees signing to indicate their membership in the union. The "card check" is a key part of the proposed legislation. That said, there is now a lot of speculation that the proposed law will probably be amended to not have this "card check" provision but to rather require the NLRB to conduct the secret ballot elections in a much quicker process, maybe within days of a petition being filed.
Please post any other questions on this matter and I would be happy to offer responses. I will not take sides on this issue.


Thanks for the great information OHIOGOLF. I have nowhere near your experience, but in two case I was involved in, had there not been a secret election and only the petition there sure would have been much more intimidation (and there was a lot) to get to the 50% mark. So we wait and see on the card check but the President Elect seems to be straight forward in his support.

Thanks again for the informative post !

[Guest]

I am very glad to see interest in this type of discussion. I don't think Unions in general, do a good job at PR. Thank you to the Ohio poster for a clear definition of the pending legislation. I believe that anything that allows workers to safely, without threat of job loss, to vote on weather or not to form a Union is a good thing. If not this legislation, then better legislation would be good. When Union membership is up, the middle class is strong.

I have taken part in many organizing efforts, some successful, some not, but I have never witnessed any behaviors from the UAW that I would not be proud to be a part of. I have however, seen intimidation and dirty tricks from management groups that would make your hair stand on end.

I have cried with a strong minded single mom who just was fired because she was labeled a Union sympathizer, for exercising her right to support the Union. I knew full well that with the labor board stacked with anti-union Bush appointees it could be a long time, if ever that she could get her job back.

Sadly, my childhood neighbor back in NY owned a Beer distributorship. He spent millions on a "West Coast Consultant firm"(Ohio will know the consultants I am talking about), that promised to squelch any effort to organize his business. They followed the children of sympathetic workers home from school, spread awful lies about workers and wound up in a confrontation that ended with a mysterious attack on two outspoken workers landing them in the hospital. That money could have been better spent negotiating a fair wage and benefit agreement for the workers.

Our Union has negotiated a concession contract with for the few workers left at our plant (From 11,000 in 1977 to 2000 today) to cut in half their wages, provide only single health coverage, and no pension other than an self funded 401k, to help them out a bunch of bad business decisions followed by the slumping economy.

I hope those jobs are as important as the banking jobs are to the government. They are looking for loans, not gifts if I understand what the big 3 are asking for, and I hope that any help will be tied to job creation here in the US.

What could be a better investment than one in the industry that helped this country win WWII? If all of our factories are over seas, next time where will Rosie the Riveter work?

[Guest]

How is there more intimidation with a secret ballot than the card check system? And how do free trade agreements come into the discussion?

In earlier posts there were discussions on how unions and the healthcare and pension costs were driving US companies into bankruptcy.

That is how free trade agreements came into the discussion.

[Guest]

Our Union has negotiated a concession contract with for the few workers left at our plant (From 11,000 in 1977 to 2000 today) to cut in half their wages, provide only single health coverage, and no pension other than an self funded 401k, to help them out a bunch of bad business decisions followed by the slumping economy.

This pattern is all too frequently repeated whether it be Appliance Park, the steel mills, the airlines or the 'big' three. Driving companies out of business or out of the country is not a win for anyone. We have two automobile industries in this country; one headquartered in Detroit and another spread throughout the south. The first is highly unionized and has been shutting factories, laying off workers and losing money and marketshare. The second is building new factories, hiring more workers at good wages, making money and gaining marketshare. It is, coincidentally, not highly unionized.

Te question for this country is which model do we want to follow - the one that destroys jobs and companies or the one that creates jobs and allows companies to grow? I oppose card check not only because it pushes the country to the first model, but starts taking this country down the road where democratic elections are no longer required.

[Guest]

You failed to mention that the other industry model that you refer to is based in Tokyo, subsided by the Japan Government, taking the profits off shore, while piling tariffs on our imported goods. Some of those operations are now unionized with more requests every day as economic conditions worsen.

The workers at our plant now make around $17.00 an hour, (about $35,000 a year). That is about what wages were in 1980, and the top executives still make obscene salaries, most being rewarded grandly for years of bad business decisions.

We all picked our career paths for a reason but when I started on an assembly line of over 100 people over 25 of us had bachelors degrees or better. Most of us were teachers that couldn't find a job, but that Union job provided my family and I a nice lifestyle and a comfortable retirement after 30 years. I am not embarrassed to look back on a job that paid a fair wage for a hard days work. We are by no means rich, and I worry those left behind will not be able to buy a house, raise a family and retire with dignity. Is that really too much to ask, given none of us retired without repetitive motion injuries, chemical exposure conditions, hearing loss etc.

If I didn't answer your question directly I am sorry. The answer is Unions provide the balance necessary to insure individual workers have a voice in this world of Corporate greed. I pick the fair model in a fair and equal market playing field.

Thanks for the opportunity to have and intelligent idea exchange!

[Guest]

I also didn't mention that those new companies don't have so many residual costs as the work force is new, with none of us retirees being provided for (as promised). We are stubbornly living longer, and costing these 100 year old businesses more than they planned. Sorry about that.

They will, someday, be in the same boat.

[Guest]

Nicely said lazeelink! Sorry I'm out of order and reading posts backward.

[Guest]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that laid off workers at Ford can go to the union hall and wait to be called back. As long as they show up they get a (full?) days pay. Many of these folks will never be called back and are just running out the clock at Ford's expense.

It seems to me that the problem with the Unions is that they fail to change with the times. I'm not a union guy so perhaps I'm wrong but that is the perception at least.

I do take issue with the executive salaries too but that's another discussion.

[Guest]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that laid off workers at Ford can go to the union hall and wait to be called back. As long as they show up they get a (full?) days pay. Many of these folks will never be called back and are just running out the clock at Ford's expense.

I’m not sure how the UAW contract reads in times such as these. I do know speaking from a union construction labor view that a laid off worker returns to the hall and registers on the out of work list. Calls come in to the hall from the signatory contractors requesting services and you are dispatched to a job on a first in, first out basis. There isn’t any pay associated with these lapses in work unless you apply and receive unemployment insurance. Of course each local construction union has several signatory contractors as opposed to one such as Ford, GM, etc. While one contractor may be slow another may have quite a bit of work so your chances of employment are increased.

I would imagine the UAW’s views would be different representing workers in a single plant. Perhaps cglenhar can address your question?

[Guest]

I can't speak specifically to Ford's agreement as my contract was tied to GM. Generally in the collective bargaining process the Union strives to make it cost more to outsorce jobs (like to Mexico) thereby encouraging managment to keep work here. So it could be true that certain workers were owed pay (sort of like severance) if their jobs were lost due to work done offshore.

I am only guessing because each situation is different. Sometimes laid off workers draw from a sub fund that is jointly funded by workers and managment to ensure income during the cyclical down turns in the business.

If anyone thinks it is business as usual in today's economy, they are wrong. The Union has paired with managment to improve things like cost and quality and made great progress. The auto industry is fighting for its life, and nothing is more important to the Union than salvaging the jobs that still exist. If that is not changing with the times, there is nothing else that the Union can do. They only exist to promote and protect the workers, and that will always be the case. The stratigic direction of the business solely belongs to managment.

That said the business choices managment made to build the gas gusslers instead of developing fuel efficent cars has proven to be a disaster. Who would have predicted that gas would go through the roof and america's love affair with the monster truck would end? It is very difficult to change direction on a dime for these large Corporations.

We all remain hopefull that any government help will be tied to R&D in new products and US job retention, and creation.

[Guest]

I could let this one pass by, considering the recent news and events regarding the Big 3, and what's at stake for current, and future jobs for millions of people, and the risk of losing technological advances, knowledge, and experience of our manufacturing capabilities.

> LET EVERYONE KNOW
> For the record...
> Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11
>
> An interesting commentary...You might find this of
> interest:
>
> 'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford
> and GM's
> contri butions to the relief and recovery efforts in New
> York and Washington .
>
> The findings are as follows.....
>
> 1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching
> employee contributions of the same number plus 10
> Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER
> response team services and office space to displaced
> government employees.
>
> 2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee
> contributions of the sam e number and a fleet of vans,
> suv's, and trucks.
>
> 3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children
> and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.
>
> 4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new
> motorcycles to the
> New YorkPolice Dept.
>
> 5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11
> Foundation,
> funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the
> children and victims of the WTC.
>
> 6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.
>
> 7. Audi-Nothing.
>
> 8. BMW-Nothing.
>
> 9. Daewoo- Nothing.
>
> 10. Fiat-Nothing.
>
> 11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales
> month ever in
> August 2001
>
> 12. Isuzu- Nothing.
>
> 13. Mitsubishi-Nothing..
>
> 14. Nissan-Nothing.
>
> 15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the
> Porsche website.
>
> 16. Subaru- Nothing.
>
> 17. Suzuki- Nothing.
>
> 18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and
> August 2001.
> Condolences posted on the website
>
> Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new
> vehicle, keep
> this information in mind. You might want to give more
> consideration to a car manufactured by an American-owned
> and / or American based company. Apart from Hyundai and
> Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed nothing
> at all to the citizens of the United States ...
>
> It's OK for these companies to take money out of this
> country, but it is apparently not acceptable to return some
> in a time of crisis. I believe we should not forget things
> like this. Say thank you in a way that gets their attention..

BUY YOUR NEXT VEHICLE FROM GM, FORD OR CHRYSLER.

[Guest]

Here are some interesting stastics supporting why we need to tell our representatives to give the loan the big three?

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

[Guest]

As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the question was too obvious to answer. Maybe not. May I suggest everyone interested in all sides of the union story read "I Heard You Paint Houses", by Frank, "The Irishman" Sheeran. The inside story of the mafia, the teamsters and Jimmy Hoffa. Get to know about intimidation. Human nature is such that no matter what one has (benefits/wages) it is never enough and we always want more. Reality soon evaporates from the argument. That's why Aesop's fable, The Goose That Laid the Golden Egg, withstand's the test of time and is taught to our children generation after generation. Organized labor has (see above examples) squeezed the neck of the industrial goose one too many times. Does anyone expect a 30 year retiree with a good pension and healthcare benefits that most don't enjoy to be critical of the union which fought for those benefits??? It wont happen.... even if the reality of the situation now is that those benefits may be, in part, responsible for the demise of yet another manufacturing segment (the US auto industry) in America. I hope that Unions continue to exist to safeguard and protect the American worker. However, the workers and unions must be willing to accept that when the goose is dead the golden eggs are finished. Suddenly the pension, health insurance and everything is gone.... (unless the taxpayer buy another goose).

[Guest]

I could let this one pass by, considering the recent news and events regarding the Big 3, and what's at stake for current, and future jobs for millions of people, and the risk of losing technological advances, knowledge, and experience of our manufacturing capabilities.

> LET EVERYONE KNOW
> For the record...
> Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11
>
> An interesting commentary...You might find this of
> interest:
>
> 'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford
> and GM's
> contri butions to the relief and recovery efforts in New
> York and Washington .
>
> The findings are as follows.....
>
> 1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching
> employee contributions of the same number plus 10
> Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER
> response team services and office space to displaced
> government employees.
>
> 2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee
> contributions of the sam e number and a fleet of vans,
> suv's, and trucks.
>
> 3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children
> and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.
>
> 4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new
> motorcycles to the
> New YorkPolice Dept.
>
> 5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11
> Foundation,
> funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the
> children and victims of the WTC.
>
> 6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.
>
> 7. Audi-Nothing.
>
> 8. BMW-Nothing.
>
> 9. Daewoo- Nothing.
>
> 10. Fiat-Nothing.
>
> 11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales
> month ever in
> August 2001
>
> 12. Isuzu- Nothing.
>
> 13. Mitsubishi-Nothing..
>
> 14. Nissan-Nothing.
>
> 15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the
> Porsche website.
>
> 16. Subaru- Nothing.
>
> 17. Suzuki- Nothing.
>
> 18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and
> August 2001.
> Condolences posted on the website
>
> Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new
> vehicle, keep
> this information in mind. You might want to give more
> consideration to a car manufactured by an American-owned
> and / or American based company. Apart from Hyundai and
> Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed nothing
> at all to the citizens of the United States ...
>
> It's OK for these companies to take money out of this
> country, but it is apparently not acceptable to return some
> in a time of crisis. I believe we should not forget things
> like this. Say thank you in a way that gets their attention..

BUY YOUR NEXT VEHICLE FROM GM, FORD OR CHRYSLER. Consumer Reports, the magazine that most buyers review before a vehicle purchase, rates and recommends vehicles on value and performance. It is important to add the dimension you have when considering a 30 thousand dollar purchase, however, I believe the CR data influences most buyers in a powerful way.

[Guest]

I can't speak specifically to Ford's agreement as my contract was tied to GM. Generally in the collective bargaining process the Union strives to make it cost more to outsorce jobs (like to Mexico) thereby encouraging managment to keep work here. So it could be true that certain workers were owed pay (sort of like severance) if their jobs were lost due to work done offshore.

I am only guessing because each situation is different. Sometimes laid off workers draw from a sub fund that is jointly funded by workers and managment to ensure income during the cyclical down turns in the business.

If anyone thinks it is business as usual in today's economy, they are wrong. The Union has paired with managment to improve things like cost and quality and made great progress. The auto industry is fighting for its life, and nothing is more important to the Union than salvaging the jobs that still exist. If that is not changing with the times, there is nothing else that the Union can do. They only exist to promote and protect the workers, and that will always be the case. The stratigic direction of the business solely belongs to managment.

That said the business choices managment made to build the gas gusslers instead of developing fuel efficent cars has proven to be a disaster. Who would have predicted that gas would go through the roof

All petroleum based fossil fuels are of a finite supply... We will run out of oil in the not too distant future. Prices will continue to rise.


I don't believe it was that difficult to predict. After all, the price of gas in Europe was 2-3 times what it was here for decades.

and america's love affair with the monster truck would end? It is very difficult to change direction on a dime for these large Corporations.

We all remain hopefull that any government help will be tied to R&D in new products and US job retention, and creation..

[Guest]

"Does anyone expect a 30 year retiree with a good pension and healthcare benefits that most don't enjoy to be critical of the union which fought for those benefits??? It wont happen...."


With respect, I am admitadly as biased as an insider can be, but I think my life experiences are at least as valid as a well read outsider.

That pension and benifit package of mine was guranteed and funded by negotiated wages defered. Those health benifits that we once thought were a given are now eating a good portion of my fixed income with new fees and co-pays every time I turn around.

It was funny when I first read the comments earlier in this thread about intimidation, i jumped to the conclusion that managment was the intimadator. In my world the "head buster, worker exploiter" was the boss. Just another perspective, I guess.

I wonder if you feel that the goose is dead for everyone and that america is doomed to become a third world economy, or just dead for the middle class skilled and semi-skilled workers?

I am interested in what your background is rs, and upon what your retirement future depends?

[Guest]

My background: I am a physicain (psychiatrist). I am almost 59 y.o. and still practice her in TV. I spent 9 years in the Army as a physician and have practiced for 31 years in all. We have lived frugally (before moving to TV in June my 1994 Ford F 150 had served as my transportation for 14 faithful years). I have no pension except what I contibuted to my 401-K over the years. That has shrunk by 40 % in the past 12 months. I have NO healthcare benefits unless I pay for them. I must pay full fee for all prescriptions. I have but 1 regret and that is not staying in the Army as a US Army physician. Hindsight is 20/20. America's future is at risk as has been true of all great civilizations in the past. The Romans believed their empire would last forever. Greed, political self-interest, laziness and corruption... not to mention battles on too many fronts ended all of that. Hopefully we have the wisdom to pull out Aesop fables periodically to keep us honest.

[Guest]

rs...
Agree, agree. Like many folks, my fortunes have been up and down, back up and then down again. Result, the word retirement is still in the future for me.

Regardless of that, I have predicted for 15 years to anyone that would listen (which weren't many) that the export of the U.S. manufacturing base overseas would spell doom for the America we know it. Of course, my views were "poo-pooed" but I do believe the chickens are coming home to roost now. Someone much more savvy than I postulated that in order to have a thriving, growth oriented economy a country has to "make stuff". That's HARD GOODS, not phony financial products made of smoke and mirrors or hamburgers. Not everyone can be a maid or clean offices. It's production of real "Stuff" that makes money.

When a local firm's employees spend their hard earned dollars at LOCALLY OWNED businesses and services, that dollar turns 8-10 times in the community. In other words, $1 in payroll equals $8-$10 in additional sales, payroll, etc. for the local community.

When you buy foreign, WalMart for example, most of the money goes to Bentonville and then on to China, Indonesia or wherever. The payroll multiple is lost. The illusion of prosperity by buying goods cheaper is soon lost in a falling job base, etc. as local companies fold in favor of the multi-nationals buying overseas.

So getting back to the Union thing, those that are now collecting their Union negotiated benefits (for the moment) are surely the last generation to do so. In fact, if the current financial trends continue they may only be getting those benefits for a short while. I hope for them this is not the case, but one only need to look at Polaroid to see the devastating effect a company failure can have on retirees. When they went bankrupt a few years ago, many of their retirees were left with 0 benefits and they found themselves looking for work to make ends meet. It wasn't pretty. NOTE: The CEO's whose crappy decisions were at fault were retained at outrageous salaries to help with the workout. ???????

I do believe time will show we are in the midst of a seismic shift in our economy, politics AND our futures. A recent tally showed that in recent weeks the govt. has incurred about $7.2 TRILLION DOLLARS in bailout obligations of one sort or another. Where is this money going to come from?????? Can you say printing press? Can you say hyper-inflation?

No matter what happens with the auto's it's not going to be business as usual in the future. In fact, it's not going to be business as usual for anyone.
Hope I'm wrong, but I don't see how the outcome can be much different.:shrug::shrug:

[Guest]

I have a hard time "blaming" management or unions. they both do what they have to do.

What we need to think of as a society is how we want to maintain our standard of living. We have exported most of the manufacturing because we don't want to pay USA-made prices for goods, and believe if it can be made more inexpensive elsewhere (shipping included), that's the better bargain.

Since I have been alive I've seen manufacturing leapfrog out of the USA to many different countries.

First it was to Japan, and "made in Japan" became synonymous with "cheap and poor quality." However, after a while, Dr. Deming's philosophies worked their magic, and costs for Japanese goods went up concurrent with the quality.

Next, Taiwan and other countries in the Pacific Rim became the "Made in ...." centers, keeping up the tradition of reducing the price well below Made-In-USA, and even more of the manufacturing base went away.

Along came NAFTA, and while it didn't move that much North, a significant number of products (especially subsystems/components) went to Mexico.

Today, almost everything I see has a "Made in China" tag.

There is an obvious pattern to all of this - we buy more goods where the labor is exploited than not. We would rather turn a blind eye to the exploitation than Buy American.

So, it seems that we will continue to maintain our standard of living as consumers by buying foreign-made stuff where the labor is paid wages we wouldn't offer a despised in-law. The Balance of Payments is so far out of whack it cannot even be accurately measured anymore, and blue-collar manufacturing is disappearing in all the traditional toolbelt areas within this country. We have sold ourselves a story that everyone in the USA must have a college degree and a white-collar job to be successful, and as a result more and more of today's youth are willing to sit on their hands rather than get them dirty earning blue-collar money.

Now we have found ourselves heavily reliant on illegal aliens working at slave wages and conditions in the USA (and want again to turn a blind eye to the human condition) because if they weren't being exploited, our costs for goods would increase accordingly.

Yes, the economy is going to H#&&, but it is our greed as consumers - not management and unions - which deserves the lion's share of the "credit."

[Guest]

rs...
Agree, agree. Like many folks, my fortunes have been up and down, back up and then down again. Result, the word retirement is still in the future for me.

Regardless of that, I have predicted for 15 years to anyone that would listen (which weren't many) that the export of the U.S. manufacturing base overseas would spell doom for the America we know it. Of course, my views were "poo-pooed" but I do believe the chickens are coming home to roost now. Someone much more savvy than I postulated that in order to have a thriving, growth oriented economy a country has to "make stuff". That's HARD GOODS, not phony financial products made of smoke and mirrors or hamburgers. Not everyone can be a maid or clean offices. It's production of real "Stuff" that makes money.

When a local firm's employees spend their hard earned dollars at LOCALLY OWNED businesses and services, that dollar turns 8-10 times in the community. In other words, $1 in payroll equals $8-$10 in additional sales, payroll, etc. for the local community.

When you buy foreign, WalMart for example, most of the money goes to Bentonville and then on to China, Indonesia or wherever. The payroll multiple is lost. The illusion of prosperity by buying goods cheaper is soon lost in a falling job base, etc. as local companies fold in favor of the multi-nationals buying overseas.

So getting back to the Union thing, those that are now collecting their Union negotiated benefits (for the moment) are surely the last generation to do so. In fact, if the current financial trends continue they may only be getting those benefits for a short while. I hope for them this is not the case, but one only need to look at Polaroid to see the devastating effect a company failure can have on retirees. When they went bankrupt a few years ago, many of their retirees were left with 0 benefits and they found themselves looking for work to make ends meet. It wasn't pretty. NOTE: The CEO's whose crappy decisions were at fault were retained at outrageous salaries to help with the workout. ???????

I do believe time will show we are in the midst of a seismic shift in our economy, politics AND our futures. A recent tally showed that in recent weeks the govt. has incurred about $7.2 TRILLION DOLLARS in bailout obligations of one sort or another. Where is this money going to come from?????? Can you say printing press? Can you say hyper-inflation?

No matter what happens with the auto's it's not going to be business as usual in the future. In fact, it's not going to be business as usual for anyone.
Hope I'm wrong, but I don't see how the outcome can be much different.:shrug::shrug:
I remain hopeful. The world is rapidly running out of oil. The silver lining is that the country that capitalizes on this reality will be the economic/financial leader of the free world. History shows that hundreds of years ago when the Netherlands perfected water and wind power they became (until British coal came along) a leading world power... the little old Netherlands. If President (elect) Obama gives a Kennedyesque "man on the moon in 10 years speech" and devotes the trillions of dollars into the technology of alternative energy I believe we can again become a world economic power. Hydrogen cells, solar panels, windmills etc need to be MANUFACTURED.... so why not perfect the technology, do it here and sell it to the world. I know, sounds naieve and simplistic but : a) there's certainly gonna be a market and b) we've got the brain power to do it... it simply has to become TOP priority.

[Guest]

These are all such valid points! Steve you are so right that blame placing is a waste of time, as both management and Unions are obligated to do their best for their constituents (Management the shareholders and Unions the workers), but in the last 15 years we have moved a long way toward the understanding that when the ship sinks, the sailors and officers die. Joint cost and quality improvement efforts (many based upon Deming’s principals) have taken away the poor product argument. If you look to CR there are highly recommended American cars in every category. How much is it worth to each of us personally to commit to buy more American made products?

My father, (a loyal Cadillac guy) a manager with no auto industry ties, used to remind me, when I had a boyfriend pull up in a foreign car, that his stint on the USS Picking in the South Pacific in WWII would have been a waste of time if we gave our country away for a few bucks of savings to out of country government sponsored businesses.

Captain, That point about making "things" is one I have been arguing ever since the financial guys took over the top positions in the auto industry. The car lovers were replaced by the quick return on a dollar guys. These guys didn’t care if we ever made a car again, as long as we made a buck. To maintain a long-term robust economy any economist will tell you that you have to export more than you import, not just push around money and ideas.

When we lost steel jobs, most people not directly effected, didn't notice, “those jobs were dirty and the people didn't deserve the wages they were getting paid,” was the justification. Then came the call center jobs, the engineering and design jobs all outsourced (getting a little scary and closer to home), now we hear talk that European doctors are limited to about $50,000 per year, helping keep health care affordable for everyone. Questions abound about the worth of CEO's CFO's and other executives in banking and industry. We can go on pointing accusing fingers at each other until we all come crashing down or...

The Union's position is to bring everyone up, not down. Our strength is as RS, stated in innovation. The future belongs to the next new idea, and our dedication should remain to to making “it” here thereby keeping this country's economy strong and self sufficient.

They should pay us all to fix this mess, it seems like all of the answers are right in front of our noses!

[Guest]

Hey, what do we know? We're the "old geezers" and this is the age of the youngsters.

20 years of The Simpsons, Family Guy, the 70's Show, Malcolm in the Middle, and a host of others taught today's youth that Fathers and Mothers were stupid and could not be trusted, and that the kids knew better than any of us. We let Hollywood and the "free press" portray us a dumba$$e$, and look what we've got for it!

[Guest]

Hey, what do we know? We're the "old geezers" and this is the age of the youngsters.

20 years of The Simpsons, Family Guy, the 70's Show, Malcolm in the Middle, and a host of others taught today's youth that Fathers and Mothers were stupid and could not be trusted, and that the kids knew better than any of us. We let Hollywood and the "free press" portray us a dumba$$e$, and look what we've got for it!


Dumb like a FOX we are(Arn't most of those shows FOX TV?)!

[Guest]

Dumb like a FOX we are(Arn't most of those shows FOX TV?)!
No, They're everywhere over the "dial."

[Guest]

As a 30 year member, organizer and retiree of the UAW I couldn't believe what I was reading. The Unions work to make life better for all workers. They work to raise the standard for all workers. I hope our country doesn't aspire to become a third world economy, because that is what workers will be relegated to if the Corporations are left unchecked.

When union membership declines, the middle class suffers. Social security, minimum wage, child labor laws, workplace safety laws. 8 hour work days brought to you by Union efforts! I think our new President gets it. Government help only for job creation within the US. We should have learned the lesson from hand outs to the Steel Companies without strings.

God bless the UAW for my opportunity to retire with dignity, a pension and health care after 30 years in the factory.

I had a politician ask me on one visit why we lobbied for health care and fair minimum wage when we already enjoyed those benifits. I thought the question was too obvious to answer. Maybe not.

SORRY... I worked my way through the ranks..passing other because I wa ambisious, hardworking and wanted to learn. I rose from a change order clerk making $2.45 an hour to a Vice President of a $60M consulting firm make 6 plus figures. This would not have happened if the union was involved... the guy with the most senioity would have moved, not the right person for the job.

I think the unions served thier purposes and made better labor relations and working enviorments..but thier time has passed..

[Guest]

I have no beef with unions. I am sure that they serve a crutial role in keeping management honest. However, and this is a big however, this argument is simply about the power of the secret ballot. This is fair to both labor and management. I do notice that we do not have check cards for any local, state or national election. I wonder why.

[Guest]

SORRY... I worked my way through the ranks..passing other because I wa ambisious, hardworking and wanted to learn. I rose from a change order clerk making $2.45 an hour to a Vice President of a $60M consulting firm make 6 plus figures. This would not have happened if the union was involved... the guy with the most senioity would have moved, not the right person for the job.

I think the unions served thier purposes and made better labor relations and working enviorments..but thier time has passed..


Congratulations on your success, but are there enough of "you" to support a robust economy on your own? The system is supported by contributions of the many, not the few.

Unions are just as relevant for the majority of the work force today as ever. Most people are just one bad management decision away from the unemployment line. That is particularly devastating if you are a hard worker at the end of a lifelong commitment to a company looking to down size.

It is a mistake to think that seniority prohibits advancement. I started in production, scored my way into the engineering trades and was appointed as a joint UAW/GM partner in quality management during my carreer. Hard work is still rewarded in a fair minded manner in a seniority system
ie: all things being equal (education, performance etc) the tie breaker is then seniority.

[Guest]

It is a mistake to think that seniority prohibits advancement. I started in production, scored my way into the engineering trades and was appointed as a joint UAW/GM partner in quality management during my carreer. Hard work is still rewarded in a fair minded manner in a seniority system
ie: all things being equal (education, performance etc) the tie breaker is then seniority.

Yes and can all see the success that resulted from the 'GM/UAW partnership'.
There are now less than 60,000 UAW employees at GM down from a high of 600,000 in 1979 and the company has gone from one of the most profitable in the world to bankruptcy. The benefits of unions are as clear here as they were in the steel and many other industries. Union card check legislation would extend there 'benefits' to many more people and industries.

[Guest]

What's banking, insurance, the airlines, tourism's (pick your favorite)..... reason for failure..... 8 years of an oil man in office perhaps?

[Guest]

An oil man in the White House didn't force Wal-Mart to go from a Made-in-USA only store to almost exclusively a Made-in-China store, or force people to use their Mastercard to buy Chinese-made computers, TVs, coffee cups and clothing, and then pay their Mastercard with a convenience check written against a Visa card.

An oil man in the White House didn't force a working couple with each making $60K per year to buy a $400K house with $20K down (and that was borrowed) on a 3-5 year interest-only balloon mortgage, and the house dip $50K in value at the same time one spouse left his/her job (for whatever reason) and the one income alone wasn't enough to cover the house bills.

If American is ever going to get out of this financial situation people better start standing up and taking PERSONAL responsibility for risky financial decisions and personal buying habits, because "government" and the "oil man in the White House" did not sign those credit card slips, use the products, or live in the over-mortgaged house.

Until people admit their own judgment was faulty, and learn from their mistakes, the paying-Mastercard-with-Visa and overcommitting without reserve will just happen again and again, with the same after-action bellyaching and the nation always teetering on recession. The soon-to-be "lawyer in the White House" can't be everyone's parent any more than the "oil man" could.

[Guest]

Like this:
John Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock
(MADE IN JAPAN ) for 6 am.
While his coffeepot
(MADE IN CHINA )
was perking, he shaved with his electric razor
(MADE IN HONG KONG ).
He put on a dress shirt
(MADE IN SRI LANKA ),
designer jeans
(MADE IN SINGAPORE )
and tennis shoes
(MADE IN KOREA )
After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet
(MADE IN INDIA )
he sat down with his calculator
(MADE IN MEXICO )
to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch
(MADE IN TAIWAN )
to the radio
(MADE IN INDIA )
he got in his car
(MADE IN GERMANY )
filled it with GAS (from Saudi Arabia )
and continued his search
for a good paying AMERICAN JOB.
At the end of yet another discouraging
and fruitless day checking his Computer
(Made In Malaysia )
Joe decided to relax for a while.
He put on his sandals
(MADE IN BRAZIL )
poured himself a glass of wine
(MADE IN FRANCE )
and turned on his TV
(MADE IN INDONESIA ),
and then wondered why he can't find
a good paying job in AMERICA !

Another contributing factor to a complicated mess.

[Guest]

Like this:
John Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock
(MADE IN JAPAN ) for 6 am.
While his coffeepot
(MADE IN CHINA )
was perking, he shaved with his electric razor
(MADE IN HONG KONG ).
He put on a dress shirt
(MADE IN SRI LANKA ),
designer jeans
(MADE IN SINGAPORE )
and tennis shoes
(MADE IN KOREA )
After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet
(MADE IN INDIA )
he sat down with his calculator
(MADE IN MEXICO )
to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch
(MADE IN TAIWAN )
to the radio
(MADE IN INDIA )
he got in his car
(MADE IN GERMANY )
filled it with GAS (from Saudi Arabia )
and continued his search
for a good paying AMERICAN JOB.
At the end of yet another discouraging
and fruitless day checking his Computer
(Made In Malaysia )
Joe decided to relax for a while.
He put on his sandals
(MADE IN BRAZIL )
poured himself a glass of wine
(MADE IN FRANCE )
and turned on his TV
(MADE IN INDONESIA ),
and then wondered why he can't find
a good paying job in AMERICA !

Another contributing factor to a complicated mess. Any suggestions on how to change this?

[Guest]

Any suggestions on how to change this? A first step might be to crack down on employment of illegals. This would free up their jobs for American citizens who will spend the money here rather sending it back to support their families. Companies may have to pay more, but they did before illegal workers were here in such numbers. One of the first industries that would hire more American workers is construction. With the government looking at massive spending for infrastructure, power generating facilities, etc, wouldn't be nice to know that the money we are spending is going into our communities rather than being wire transferred out of the country?

[Guest]

thus increasing costs while making sure the productivity is not too demanding or efficient (union greed). As a result, auto companies take work off shore to reduce costs, improve quality and eventually management greed (this time) leads the company toward bankruptcy.

At the same time foreign auto makers decide to move to the USA to cut costs, improve quality WHILE DEMANDING THE SAME EFFICIENCY THEY DO back home....even with the union....for a lower wage.
These auto makers are not in line for bail outs and their employees are still working.

Now just what could be the difference? For one, this subject will never hit the main stream media. You also will not hear this comparison being made during the hearings for the auto maker bail out. Why? Because there is no incentive to understand the real problem and solve it.

Anyway, I may have strayed from the thread....but just followed suit.

BTK

[Guest]

thus increasing costs while making sure the productivity is not too demanding or efficient (union greed). As a result, auto companies take work off shore to reduce costs, improve quality and eventually management greed (this time) leads the company toward bankruptcy.

At the same time foreign auto makers decide to move to the USA to cut costs, improve quality WHILE DEMANDING THE SAME EFFICIENCY THEY DO back home....even with the union....for a lower wage.
These auto makers are not in line for bail outs and their employees are still working.

Now just what could be the difference? For one, this subject will never hit the main stream media. You also will not hear this comparison being made during the hearings for the auto maker bail out. Why? Because there is no incentive to understand the real problem and solve it.

Anyway, I may have strayed from the thread....but just followed suit.

BTK


Good post.....I agree with all !!!

Your comment on the main street media is right on target. From my perspective, most and I mean the far largest percentage of our problems are actually a result of the media. They are supposed to be our "watchdogs" and they are anything but !!!!!!

[Guest]

Any suggestions on how to change this?

I wish I had answers, but I do have a couple of observation and suggestions:

I think that Americans as a whole want to do the right thing, for the country and the planet. They are, however, afraid of being taken for a ride, appreciate value, and are a bit lazy and easily overwhelmed by giant overhauling lifestyle changes.

Take the environment for an example: Ten years ago you got laughed at as a tree hugger if you cared about the environment, we now have accepted as truth the value in taking care of the planet. We are now learning to help by making small incremental changes, like using florescent bulbs and recycling.

So I think the plan has to be to make Americans understand that buying American products are good for the country (the patriotic thing to do), a good value, by producing innovative, high quality goods that people want to buy (value is not only price), and make the right choice easy (Clearer labels, retailers dedicated to American made products).

Our trade policies may have to be revised to assure equal trading status only for equal trading partners. Preferred status given only to countries that respect the environment, protect workers and do not tariff our imports.

I think the free market will take it from there and more entrepreneurs will invest here, make things here, more people will be employed and the circle expands. Eat the elephant one bite at a time.

[Guest]

Agreed! We still have a double-edged sword at our throats - our foreign policy for the last three decades and our domestic economic policy counter each other.

One of the main reasons - if not THE reason - we have a pseudo-peace with many nations is by giving them "most favored trading partner" status. So, even though the foreign government may control in fact or in part the factories, give pittance wages in sweatshop conditions, and otherwise do things (greenhouse gas monsters?) that US companies can't or don't, the foreign goods are allowed into the US either duty-free or almost-duty-free. That gives the foreign goods a distinct pricing advantage versus the US manufacturer when similar goods are placed before consumers.

So, US manufacturers find themselves competing toe-to-toe in the US market with Chinese competitors who pay their labor anywhere from $0.40-$.90 per hour (depending on location) for a basic 44-hour workweek which can stretch to 80+ hours per week when the factory can get away with it. That's the biggest reason why US companies have sought illegal alien labor - to help level the labor-cost playing field, because the illegals work non-union and for whatever they can get.

As an example - a lot of noise has come out concerning the ICE raids on Midwest meat-packing plants and a New England leather/nylon goods manufacturer. There is great pressure to bear by Rep. Pelosi and others to stop these raids. In each of the raids, several dozen illegal alien workers were rounded up. Human rights and local business owners got upset because the plants closed afterwards. However, no one wanted to comment on the fact the alien workers were being paid 1/4th to 1/3rd of what US workers used to get in the same plants before they were forced out. No one wanted to discuss the dozens of OSHA violations in all of these plants. No one especially wanted to discuss the 13-17 year olds working in the plants like they were adults. No one surely wanted to recognize that these illegal aliens, for the most part, were all involved in identity theft by virtue of the documents and SSNs they were using (and if you have been an identity theft victim, you understand the long-term problem you now have).

To be honest, I understand the viewpoint of the illegal alien and the plant owner. The illegal alien is doing whatever it takes to feed his/her family and could care less if that harms the American worker. The plant owner is trying to meet all of the safety, environmental and labor laws of the Fed, the State and locals, and still try to make a product and profit, and finds the Fed has sold him down the river by allowing his foreign competition to do everything the Fed won't let the US plant owner do, and the result is a huge price differential in the foreign versus US goods.

All of the bailout plans presented so far do not address any of this, and this is basic economics in the 21st century within the US.

So, until such time as this "most favored trading partner" program is leveled to a neutral balance-of-payments situation, there is no true way out of our industrial and financial dilemma.

[Guest]

Just a follow-up note on the EFCA (card check legislation)...now the general thoughts are that with the Republican senatorial win last night in Georgia, the "card check" portion of any labor law reform legislation is probably doomed. Also indicative of that is the centrist and pragmatic approach that the Obama appointees seem to be taking on other issues. The current expectation is that some labor law reform will take place, probably in the form of quicker elections, stiffer penalties and more legal pressure for reaching agreements on initial labor agreements, but the card check idea is waning.

again, I will take no sides on this or the other labor issue being discussed but will keep you up to date on the legislation.