Traffic accidents at Powell Rd and Rt. 44

[noslices1]

There was an article,this morning, in The Villages newspaper, The Daily Sun, about all the vehicle crashes at the intersection of Powell Road and Route 44 in the last two years, with 3 fatalities. Looking at the diagram that was shown in the paper, at least 15 of the 20 crashes could have been prevented with a relatively inexpensive, simple fix.

Left turn arrows, but RED left turn arrows when there is oncoming traffic. Also, "NO RIGHT TURN ON RED" signs on Powell Rd and Signature Dr.

Any other suggestions that might keep these accidents to a minimum?

[outlaw]

After seeing what the county/state? did with hwy 301 and cr 472 intersection, I can only imagine what will happen with powell and 44.

[Taltarzac725]

There was an article,this morning, in The Villages newspaper, The Daily Sun, about all the vehicle crashes at the intersection of Powell Road and Route 44 in the last two years, with 3 fatalities. Looking at the diagram that was shown in the paper, at least 15 of the 20 crashes could have been prevented with a relatively inexpensive, simple fix.

Left turn arrows, but RED left turn arrows when there is oncoming traffic. Also, "NO RIGHT TURN ON RED" signs on Powell Rd and Signature Dr.

Any other suggestions that might keep these accidents to a minimum?

Park a cop car there with a dummy in it. I mean a manikin.

[Phanatic Luvr]

I have always said, all the turning lanes which have green arrows should turn to a red arrow when the oncoming traffic have the green light. Look at all these intersections with constant crashes ... Powell and 44, Buena Vista and 466A, Morse and 466A. I just don't get why this has not been done.

[fred53]

You can't fix inattention with signs or lights...period. Inattention happens when someone is either preoccupied with other things in life except driving, or has gotten old to the point of being unable to focus their attention 100 percent on the task at hand.

Signs/cop car/whatever will not fix this and never will. Perhaps autonomous cars might, but until then it is a fact of life...and death.

[memason]

I suspect the partial solution to this problem will be a lowering of the speed limit from 55 to 45, in that area.

That area, in general, has seen an increase in development within the last 2 years that has increased/changed the traffic patterns in that area.

Lowering the speed limit will not necessarily lessen the number of accidents, but rather the severity.

[Bogie Shooter]

After seeing what the county/state? did with hwy 301 and cr 472 intersection, I can only imagine what will happen with powell and 44.

I think what they did was a big improvement over the way it was. Their conclusion was to put in a roundabout in the future. Now that would be crazy................

[HimandMe]

You can't fix inattention with signs or lights...period. Inattention happens when someone is either preoccupied with other things in life except driving, or has gotten old to the point of being unable to focus their attention 100 percent on the task at hand.

Signs/cop car/whatever will not fix this and never will. Perhaps autonomous cars might, but until then it is a fact of life...and death.

We have a unique situation here, the elderly in many stages, the golf carts and the sometimes wild maneuvers of contractors and visitors. Let's not forget every single day people are here trying to find their way through the maze of roads and roundabouts for the first time too. Whatever extra help to make things as clear as possible gets my vote.

[villagetinker]

This intersection has an additional 'feature', it has a significant hump, not sure if this has contributed to any of the accidents, as you may need to slow down going through it. I did see a very close call at this intersection, when apparently I was taking too long to make a SAFE left turn on to Powell. The car behind me came thru with me and the on coming (East bound) vehicle had to hit their brakes hard to avoid hitting the car behind me.

[photo1902]

You can't fix inattention with signs or lights...period. Inattention happens when someone is either preoccupied with other things in life except driving, or has gotten old to the point of being unable to focus their attention 100 percent on the task at hand.

Signs/cop car/whatever will not fix this and never will. Perhaps autonomous cars might, but until then it is a fact of life...and death.

you can prevent failure to yield accidents. The same holds true on Rt 466A at Buena Vista and Morse. Ive seen some really close calls, especially since its extremely difficult to see on coming traffic on 466A, when there are cars in the turn lanes. No doubt there will be a major (fatal) accident at these intersections, if there has no already been one.

[CFrance]

You can't fix inattention with signs or lights...period. Inattention happens when someone is either preoccupied with other things in life except driving, or has gotten old to the point of being unable to focus their attention 100 percent on the task at hand.

Signs/cop car/whatever will not fix this and never will. Perhaps autonomous cars might, but until then it is a fact of life...and death.
I believe red left turning lights will grab people's attention. Most people obey red lights; they wouldn't be out there in the middle of a busy intersection.

[Happinow]

I believe red left turning lights will grab people's attention. Most people obey red lights; they wouldn't be out there in the middle of a busy intersection.

I agree. It is insane that at these major intersections cars able to turn against traffic.People are in so much of a hurry that they don't care about safety. People pulling into these intersections make them even more dangerous. A red and green turn arrow would fix this problem and possible save lives.

[golfing eagles]

I believe red left turning lights will grab people's attention. Most people obey red lights; they wouldn't be out there in the middle of a busy intersection.

Might help, but overall I disagree with this philosophy. You just end up sitting there waiting for an entire cycle of the lights while there may be no one coming in the opposite direction. There are plenty of turns off 44 where there is no light at all, should we put a traffic light with red arrows at every one of them? The problem is that you're trying to fix stupid, and that doesn't work. If you are too blind, or too inattentive to know when you can make a left off a high speed highway, perhaps you should stay off that road.

[golfing eagles]

I agree. It is insane that at these major intersections cars able to turn against traffic.People are in so much of a hurry that they don't care about safety. People pulling into these intersections make them even more dangerous. A red and green turn arrow would fix this problem and possible save lives.

Again it might, but many people who might be just sitting there for no reason while there is a green light for traffic going straight, say they are the only car on the road at midnight, will probably just turn through it anyway

[CFrance]

Might help, but overall I disagree with this philosophy. You just end up sitting there waiting for an entire cycle of the lights while there may be no one coming in the opposite direction. There are plenty of turns off 44 where there is no light at all, should we put a traffic light with red arrows at every one of them? The problem is that you're trying to fix stupid, and that doesn't work. If you are too blind, or too inattentive to know when you can make a left off a high speed highway, perhaps you should stay off that road.
I disagree with your disagreement! At the intersections of 466A & Morse & BV & 466A, it is very difficult to see around the car(s) in the left hand turn lane opposite yours. People pull out anyway, and surprise, surprise, there's a car or two barreling toward you while you're in the middle of the intersection.

Pretty impossible to live down this way and stay off of 466A. Besides, the people you would tell that to obviously wouldn't take heed. I'll bet you one of Bare's lobsters on it.:MOJE_whot:

[Polar Bear]

I'm with GE. (Will miracles never cease?) Red arrows are not the automatic solution to every intersection where some individuals make bad choices.

You significantly reduce intersection capacity and often make left turners wait unreasonable amounts of time when there is no oncoming traffic.

There are other, better ways to deal with the situation. But make no mistake...none of them are perfect. They all depend upon good, attentive driving.

[dbussone]

I disagree with your disagreement! At the intersections of 466A & Morse & BV & 466A, it is very difficult to see around the car(s) in the left hand turn lane opposite yours. People pull out anyway, and surprise, surprise, there's a car or two barreling toward you while you're in the middle of the intersection.

Pretty impossible to live down this way and stay off of 466A. Besides, the people you would tell that too obviously wouldn't take heed. I'll bet you one of Bare's lobsters on it.:MOJE_whot:


I must agree with you, despite the fact that GE and PB are often correct. Both BV and Morse require red arrows after green arrows on 466A, and other locations. (And I'll buy my own lobster thanks). The vast majority of people will stop on a red arrow. If they work in Las Vegas they will work anywhere. (LV has a much higher proportion of impaired drivers than TV.)

[CFrance]

I must agree with you, despite the fact that GE and PB are often correct. Both BV and Morse require red arrows after green arrows on 466A, and other locations. (And I'll buy my own lobster thanks). The vast majority of people will stop on a red arrow. If they work in Las Vegas they will work anywhere. (LV has a much higher proportion of impaired drivers than TV.)

I'll see you a lobster and raise you one crab, DB!

[dbussone]

I'll see you a lobster and raise you one crab, DB!


Done deal!

[Cathy H]

you can prevent failure to yield accidents. The same holds true on Rt 466A at Buena Vista and Morse. Ive seen some really close calls, especially since its extremely difficult to see on coming traffic on 466A, when there are cars in the turn lanes. No doubt there will be a major (fatal) accident at these intersections, if there has no already been one.yes it is hard to detect oncoming traffic when waiting to turn left when there is a line of cars in the left turn lane facing you. it would seem that the signal with the green arrow should also turn red to add safety to this situation. cours no one will be happy bout that

[joldnol]

Again it might, but many people who might be just sitting there for no reason while there is a green light for traffic going straight, say they are the only car on the road at midnight, will probably just turn through it anyway

well said

[photo1902]

yes it is hard to detect oncoming traffic when waiting to turn left when there is a line of cars in the left turn lane facing you. it would seem that the signal with the green arrow should also turn red to add safety to this situation. cours no one will be happy bout that

Heaven forbid someone is late for a tee time while waiting all that time for a green turn arrow.

[xkeowner]

An average of less than one accident a month. Is this really the most pressing traffic problem in this area?

[dbussone]

An average of less than one accident a month. Is this really the most pressing traffic problem in this area?


Given the severity of the accidents, I would have to rate it highly. Certainly higher than the DOT need for another rotary.

[golfing eagles]

I disagree with your disagreement! At the intersections of 466A & Morse & BV & 466A, it is very difficult to see around the car(s) in the left hand turn lane opposite yours. People pull out anyway, and surprise, surprise, there's a car or two barreling toward you while you're in the middle of the intersection.

Pretty impossible to live down this way and stay off of 466A. Besides, the people you would tell that to obviously wouldn't take heed. I'll bet you one of Bare's lobsters on it.:MOJE_whot:

I live less than a mile from BV and 466A, make those left turns at least 10x/week. I have no problem whatsoever--it's just a matter of looking carefully, and not entering the intersection if in doubt--you can always turn as the light is changing and oncoming traffic is slowing

[villagetinker]

I had suggested before that the LEFT turn lanes for 466 and 466a be moved to the LEFT, take out some or all of the flowers, and put the left turn lane where it should be. Take a look at he NEW left turn lane on 441 to 466a, it is a full lane width to the left, there is a cross hatched lane to the right. Great visibility.

I think moving the left turn lanes is the ultimate and correct solution. While I agree that RED arrows will help, they will not help the person that entered the intersection, before these changed to red.

I am not sure if this solution can be applied at the intersections on 44.

Since these are COUNTY roads (maybe state??), I am guessing that FDOT will need to get involved, but if enough people complain, maybe something will be done.

Please do not shoot the messenger, this is just MHO.

[golfing eagles]

Heaven forbid someone is late for a tee time while waiting all that time for a green turn arrow.

And for the coup de gras---you wait for 3, 3 1/2 min for a green arrow and then some nimrod runs the red light and T-bones you.

[photo1902]

I live less than a mile from BV and 466A, make those left turns at least 10x/week. I have no problem whatsoever--it's just a matter of looking carefully, and not entering the intersection if in doubt--you can always turn as the light is changing and oncoming traffic is slowing

Hopefully no one coming the other way shoots through the yellow, or red light, as you're crossing over as the light changes. Again, your tee time will wait.

[golfing eagles]

Hopefully no one coming the other way shoots through the yellow, or red light, as you're crossing over as the light changes. Again, your tee time will wait.

I'll see exactly what they are doing long before that happens. Besides, my Chrysler 200 convertible has 292 HP---I can be across the road before he even sees me

[photo1902]

I'll see exactly what they are doing long before that happens. Besides, my Chrysler 200 convertible has 292 HP---I can be across the road before he even sees me

flaunting the hp of your car to get you out of trouble. Very mature.

[golfing eagles]

flaunting the hp of your car to get you out of trouble. Very mature.

No, using the HP of the vehicle to avoid an accident, when appropriate. You assume too much

[photo1902]

No, using the HP of the vehicle to avoid an accident, when appropriate. You assume too much

Meet kettle. We will agree to disagree.

[golfing eagles]

Meet kettle. We will agree to disagree.

No disagreement at all. Everyone should drive safe and be completely aware of their surroundings at all times. If you do this, making a left turn across 44 or 466A is NOT a problem. We don't need more red arrows and traffic lights to foul up traffic any further. Again, consider the turn if there was no light there, like many on 44 and 301. You wait for a safe opening, and then make your turn. Driving 101. The red arrow is just on a timer--it cannot evaluate if traffic is there or not, and cannot exercise judgment

[Polar Bear]

I had suggested before that the LEFT turn lanes for 466 and 466a be moved to the LEFT, take out some or all of the flowers, and put the left turn lane where it should be. Take a look at he NEW left turn lane on 441 to 466a, it is a full lane width to the left, there is a cross hatched lane to the right. Great visibility.

I think moving the left turn lanes is the ultimate and correct solution. While I agree that RED arrows will help, they will not help the person that entered the intersection...
:agree:

[photo1902]

No disagreement at all. Everyone should drive safe and be completely aware of their surroundings at all times. If you do this, making a left turn across 44 or 466A is NOT a problem. We don't need more red arrows and traffic lights to foul up traffic any further. Again, consider the turn if there was no light there, like many on 44 and 301. You wait for a safe opening, and then make your turn. Driving 101. The red arrow is just on a timer--it cannot evaluate if traffic is there or not, and cannot exercise judgment

Not all intersections are the same. When vehicles are in the turn lanes of 466A, you cannot adequately see traffic coming straight through. Certainly not enough to risk saving you apparently precious minutes in your commute by making the left turn. Entering the intersection just to wait for the light to change so you can make the turn is absurd. But I'm not going to change your mind, so there's no use discussing it. Turn arrows won't foul up traffic to the point of congestion. It's a preposterous statement in this area. My opinion is that in certain intersections, turn arrows need to be implemented.

[golfing eagles]

Not all intersections are the same. When vehicles are in the turn lanes of 466A, you cannot adequately see traffic coming straight through. Certainly not enough to risk saving you apparently precious minutes in your commute by making the left turn. Entering the intersection just to wait for the light to change so you can make the turn is absurd. But I'm not going to change your mind, so there's no use discussing it. Turn arrows won't foul up traffic to the point of congestion. It's a preposterous statement in this area. My opinion is that in certain intersections, turn arrows need to be implemented.

OK, let's dance.
"Not all intersections are the same"---quite obvious. When an intersection is busy enough it earns a traffic light. Some earn turn arrows.

"When vehicles are in the turn lanes of 466A, you cannot adequately see traffic coming straight through."---Disagree, and I drive it frequently--do you? But I agree with Village Thinker, moving the left turn lane over would improve visibility for everyone, since some people seem to have a problem with it.

"Entering the intersection just to wait for the light to change so you can make the turn is absurd."----Don't remember saying THAT. But if I am the first car in line to make a left, I will pull up to the center line of the cross road, since I will turn on yellow if needed. Do you stay back at the end of the turn lane? If so, and since you state you cannot see what is coming, you then sit there as the light turns red? That is essentially a self imposed red turn arrow, except that you are imposing it on everyone behind you as well.

"But I'm not going to change your mind, so there's no use discussing it."--actually, if you make a logical argument, you might. So far, it's an epic fail.

"Turn arrows won't foul up traffic to the point of congestion. It's a preposterous statement in this area."---Really? People constantly are complaining about traffic, especially this time of year. So you think making a line of cars stop and wait 3 minutes when they might very well have been on their way does not add to congestion? Please rethink that one.

"My opinion is that in certain intersections, turn arrows need to be implemented"---best statement in your post, since you are entitled to your opinion. But overall, I'll give you a 3 on a scale of 10. Maybe we should waltz instead of tango:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[photo1902]

OK, let's dance.
"Not all intersections are the same"---quite obvious. When an intersection is busy enough it earns a traffic light. Some earn turn arrows.

"When vehicles are in the turn lanes of 466A, you cannot adequately see traffic coming straight through."---Disagree, and I drive it frequently--do you? But I agree with Village Thinker, moving the left turn lane over would improve visibility for everyone, since some people seem to have a problem with it.

"Entering the intersection just to wait for the light to change so you can make the turn is absurd."----Don't remember saying THAT. But if I am the first car in line to make a left, I will pull up to the center line of the cross road, since I will turn on yellow if needed. Do you stay back at the end of the turn lane? If so, and since you state you cannot see what is coming, you then sit there as the light turns red? That is essentially a self imposed red turn arrow, except that you are imposing it on everyone behind you as well.

"But I'm not going to change your mind, so there's no use discussing it."--actually, if you make a logical argument, you might. So far, it's an epic fail.

"Turn arrows won't foul up traffic to the point of congestion. It's a preposterous statement in this area."---Really? People constantly are complaining about traffic, especially this time of year. So you think making a line of cars stop and wait 3 minutes when they might very well have been on their way does not add to congestion? Please rethink that one.

"My opinion is that in certain intersections, turn arrows need to be implemented"---best statement in your post, since you are entitled to your opinion. But overall, I'll give you a 3 on a scale of 10. Maybe we should waltz instead of tango:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

You've got some serious issues. But hey, do what you need to do to save that extra 3 minutes of your time.

[golfing eagles]

You've got some serious issues. But hey, do what you need to do to save that extra 3 minutes of your time.

I have serious issues??? Now that's funny:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: I made a cogent argument, refuting your post point by point, and THAT'S your response??? It is reminiscent of those that lose a political argument, then just like the first graders that they are, call the winner names.

Back on topic, again, you posted
"Turn arrows won't foul up traffic to the point of congestion. It's a preposterous statement in this area."---Do you live in a vacuum??? It should be 100% obvious that whenever you plant vehicles on a road that are doing nothing, it increases congestion. What do you think is happening in the turn lane behind you as you sit at a red arrow? Easy answer---it backs up further and further until the last cars have their rear ends hanging out stopped in the left lane of the highway. How safe do you thin THAT is? You must have implicit trust that the cars approaching at 45+ mph are paying attention! And don't tell me it doesn't happen, because it just happened to me last week on 466 waiting to turn south on Morse. Even with my flashers on, I had a reasonable degree of concern that some bozo would be texting or daydreaming and run right into me. There is no red arrow at that intersection, and yet there were about 25 cars overflowing the left turn lane. Add a red arrow and now you have how many???? And how many more intersections will now experience this problem? Or do you still think that contention is "preposterous"??? How would you deal with the new widespread turn lane back ups---increase the green arrow time? That of course just backs up the traffic going straight even further. You see, cause and effect is a relatively simple principle. And don't tell me this paragraph is just "my opinion", because it is EXACTLY what would happen, it is inevitable just on the logistics alone.
So if the mature, logical, coherent presentation above doesn't at least make you reconsider, at least do me 2 favors.
1) refrain from calling other posters names when you lose an argument
2) Please do not get ahead of me in a left hand turn lane:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[photo1902]

:BigApplause:I have serious issues??? Now that's funny:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: I made a cogent argument, refuting your post point by point, and THAT'S your response??? It is reminiscent of those that lose a political argument, then just like the first graders that they are, call the winner names.

Back on topic, again, you posted
"Turn arrows won't foul up traffic to the point of congestion. It's a preposterous statement in this area."---Do you live in a vacuum??? It should be 100% obvious that whenever you plant vehicles on a road that are doing nothing, it increases congestion. What do you think is happening in the turn lane behind you as you sit at a red arrow? Easy answer---it backs up further and further until the last cars have their rear ends hanging out stopped in the left lane of the highway. How safe do you thin THAT is? You must have implicit trust that the cars approaching at 45+ mph are paying attention! And don't tell me it doesn't happen, because it just happened to me last week on 466 waiting to turn south on Morse. Even with my flashers on, I had a reasonable degree of concern that some bozo would be texting or daydreaming and run right into me. There is no red arrow at that intersection, and yet there were about 25 cars overflowing the left turn lane. Add a red arrow and now you have how many???? And how many more intersections will now experience this problem? Or do you still think that contention is "preposterous"??? How would you deal with the new widespread turn lane back ups---increase the green arrow time? That of course just backs up the traffic going straight even further. You see, cause and effect is a relatively simple principle. And don't tell me this paragraph is just "my opinion", because it is EXACTLY what would happen, it is inevitable just on the logistics alone.
So if the mature, logical, coherent presentation above doesn't at least make you reconsider, at least do me 2 favors.
1) refrain from calling other posters names when you lose an argument
2) Please do not get ahead of me in a left hand turn lane:1rotfl::1rotfl:

Proved my point. Case closed. Have a great day!

[golfing eagles]

:BigApplause:

Proved my point. Case closed. Have a great day!

Actually, you just proved my point. If you are able to make a logical counterargument, I'm all ears. Otherwise, just concede graciously and have a great day as well.

[Challenger]

OK, let's dance.
"Not all intersections are the same"---quite obvious. When an intersection is busy enough it earns a traffic light. Some earn turn arrows.

"When vehicles are in the turn lanes of 466A, you cannot adequately see traffic coming straight through."---Disagree, and I drive it frequently--do you? But I agree with Village Thinker, moving the left turn lane over would improve visibility for everyone, since some people seem to have a problem with it.

"Entering the intersection just to wait for the light to change so you can make the turn is absurd."----Don't remember saying THAT. But if I am the first car in line to make a left, I will pull up to the center line of the cross road, since I will turn on yellow if needed. Do you stay back at the end of the turn lane? If so, and since you state you cannot see what is coming, you then sit there as the light turns red? That is essentially a self imposed red turn arrow, except that you are imposing it on everyone behind you as well.

"But I'm not going to change your mind, so there's no use discussing it."--actually, if you make a logical argument, you might. So far, it's an epic fail.

"Turn arrows won't foul up traffic to the point of congestion. It's a preposterous statement in this area."---Really? People constantly are complaining about traffic, especially this time of year. So you think making a line of cars stop and wait 3 minutes when they might very well have been on their way does not add to congestion? Please rethink that one.

"My opinion is that in certain intersections, turn arrows need to be implemented"---best statement in your post, since you are entitled to your opinion. But overall, I'll give you a 3 on a scale of 10. Maybe we should waltz instead of tango:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Written by someone who knows how to drive. I would concur!!!

[photo1902]

Actually, you just proved my point. If you are able to make a logical counterargument, I'm all ears. Otherwise, just concede graciously and have a great day as well.

I don't need to justify my opinion to you. I feel certain intersections need to be controlled by traffic arrows. My opinion, yours is different. Big deal.

[outlaw]

I think what they did was a big improvement over the way it was. Their conclusion was to put in a roundabout in the future. Now that would be crazy................

It's pretty bad. Crossing 301 at 472, especially at night, one could easily enter the 301 turn lane. There are no "do not enter" signs at these turn lanes. And I don't recall any "right turn only" signs on 472. The turn lanes are perfectly lined up with 472, appearing to be a staging area to cross 301. Worst design I have ever encountered imho.

[golfing eagles]

I don't need to justify my opinion to you. I feel certain intersections need to be controlled by traffic arrows. My opinion, yours is different. Big deal.

No big deal at all. My point was simply that adding those "controls' may have unintended consequences, and that by making the turn safer, you may make the end of the turn line less safe. I think you may have misunderstood my original point, and perhaps I worded it poorly. I believe you took my post to advocate unsafe turns to save a few minutes. Far from it. Each time you approach these turns is a bit different, and the driver needs to exercise judgment and an awareness of his surroundings.
Let me use turning left on BV from heading west on 466A as an example:
I can see the light from over a mile away--this gives me a gestalt on whether the light will turn when or shortly after I arrive. If it is obvious that it is going to turn red, I even slow down a bit , let it change and wait for the arrow. As I approach the turn lane, even before entering it, I am observing and evaluating the traffic flow in the other direction. I know in advance if this is going to be an easy turn or near impossible, again , in the latter case, I stop short of the intersection and wait for the arrow. If the traffic in the other direction is light, I will pull up to the center line of the intersection, since I will be able to turn, and only rarely do I have to turn on yellow since I know what is coming in the other direction. Also, never turn your wheels left until you start to turn, otherwise you run the risk that a distracted driver will rear end you and push your car into the path of oncoming traffic. Even as I'm driving along 466A, I avoid riding side by side with another car--they are too unpredictable and there is very little reaction time if they do something stupid. I've been driving for 45 years and have never been in an accident BECAUSE I am aware of my surroundings, despite driving in NYC and Long Island most of those years.

[Walter123]

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;1188555]O
"Entering the intersection just to wait for the light to change so you can make the turn is absurd."----Don't remember saying THAT. But if I am the first car in line to make a left, I will pull up to the center line of the cross road, since I will turn on yellow if needed. Do you stay back at the end of the turn lane? If so, and since you state you cannot see what is coming, you then sit there as the light turns red? That is essentially a self imposed red turn arrow, except that you are imposing it on everyone behind you as well.

GE, I agree with most of what you say except that I think that it's against the law to wait in the middle of the intersection to make a left turn. I think the law states you cannot block the intersection. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;1188555]O
"Entering the intersection just to wait for the light to change so you can make the turn is absurd."----Don't remember saying THAT. But if I am the first car in line to make a left, I will pull up to the center line of the cross road, since I will turn on yellow if needed. Do you stay back at the end of the turn lane? If so, and since you state you cannot see what is coming, you then sit there as the light turns red? That is essentially a self imposed red turn arrow, except that you are imposing it on everyone behind you as well.

GE, I agree with most of what you say except that I think that it's against the law to wait in the middle of the intersection to make a left turn. I think the law states you cannot block the intersection. Please correct me if I am wrong.

You cannot block an intersection, but by pulling forward when the light is green in your direction, you are not blocking it, unless you sit there until it turns green in the opposite direction.

[Bogie Shooter]

A classic P!$$ing contest.....................

[golfing eagles]

A classic P!$$ing contest.....................

Of course. Isn't that what makes TOTV a great forum?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[golfing eagles]

And here's another example of why we all have to drive defensively and be thinking all the time, from just yesterday:

Exiting Hillsborough gate to go south on BV, I took the inner lane to go around 270. Some yahoo tailgated me through the gate and continue to ride 5 feet off my rear bumper. As we got 1/4 around, another bozo coming from the north on BV failed to yield the right of way and entered the RB in the outer lane right alongside me, then made an obscene gesture as I used my horn (for safety reasons, of course:1rotfl:). Now, being quite familiar with this RB there were 2 possibilities: Either she was unaware of the bypass lane and was going to head south on BV (1%) or she was going to go around 270 to the Hillsborough gate (99%). So I slowed down and let her get ahead, at which point the guy behind me leaned on his horn to get me to speed up! Of course, the lady did exactly as predicted---headed to the gate. If I did not slow up because of awareness of the likely scenario, there would have been a 3 car accident. They both deserved a one finger salute, but that would have left me steering with my knees. The worst thing is that, even though I was the only one driving through the RB correctly, I would have had both front end and rear end damage as they sandwiched me!

[dbussone]

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;1188555]O
"Entering the intersection just to wait for the light to change so you can make the turn is absurd."----Don't remember saying THAT. But if I am the first car in line to make a left, I will pull up to the center line of the cross road, since I will turn on yellow if needed. Do you stay back at the end of the turn lane? If so, and since you state you cannot see what is coming, you then sit there as the light turns red? That is essentially a self imposed red turn arrow, except that you are imposing it on everyone behind you as well.

GE, I agree with most of what you say except that I think that it's against the law to wait in the middle of the intersection to make a left turn. I think the law states you cannot block the intersection. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Absolutely correct! It is in opposition to the law. There is even a catch phrase for it. "Don't block the box." The "box" is a rectangle or square created by imaginary (or sometimes painted) lines. It consists of the space where cars coming in from all directions might intersect.

[Walter123]

[QUOTE=Walter123;1188641]

You cannot block an intersection, but by pulling forward when the light is green in your direction, you are not blocking it, unless you sit there until it turns green in the opposite direction.

I tried a quick google and really couldn't find a definitive answer. The only thing I would worry about would be someone coming straight through from the opposite direction when they have a yellow light too. Usually that guy will be accelerating. I have been in this situation and left in the middle of the intersection when the light turns red and if more than one guy wants to beat the yellow light you could find yourself in a bad situation.
It's a gray area because you can't predict what other drivers will do. So I guess it depends on the situation before I would know what I would do.

[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=Walter123;1188641]

Absolutely correct! It is in opposition to the law. There is even a catch phrase for it. "Don't block the box." The "box" is a rectangle or square created by imaginary (or sometimes painted) lines. It consists of the space where cars coming in from all directions might intersect.

You're not blocking it, you are passing through it. The phrase you quote was intended for urban traffic where drivers pull straight thru to the end of a back up that leaves them in the intersection when the light changes, thus creating gridlock. You have to experience it in Midtown Manhattan to have full appreciation of the effect.

[dbussone]

[QUOTE=dbussone;1188659]

You're not blocking it, you are passing through it. The phrase you quote was intended for urban traffic where drivers pull straight thru to the end of a back up that leaves them in the intersection when the light changes, thus creating gridlock. You have to experience it in Midtown Manhattan to have full appreciation of the effect.

I have experienced traffic in Manhattan, Boston (for years), LA, etc And the traffic we have here this time of year is already pretty nasty. If you stop in the box, you are not passing through it. And if you are still there when the light changes, you will be blocking it.

[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;1188661]

I have experienced traffic in Manhattan, Boston (for years), LA, etc And the traffic we have here this time of year is already pretty nasty. If you stop in the box, you are not passing through it. And if you are still there when the light changes, you will be blocking it.

Agreed---just don't be there when the light changes. And as I posted above, don't enter it when it is obvious you are not going to be able to turn safely due to oncoming flow of traffic. What I'm really getting at is the times when 1 or 2 cars are coming and the light won't change for a while, which are the same times that a red arrow would be a detriment rather than an enhancement.

[golfing eagles]

From Florida statutes:
316.151 Required position and method of turning at intersections.�
(1) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do so as follows:
(a) Right turn.�Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway.

(b) Left turn.�The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left at any intersection shall approach the intersection in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of such vehicle, and, after entering the intersection, the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection in a lane lawfully available to traffic moving in such direction upon the roadway being entered. A person riding a bicycle and intending to turn left in accordance with this section is entitled to the full use of the lane from which the turn may legally be made. Whenever practicable the left turn shall be made in that portion of the intersection to the left of the center of the intersection.

Interestingly here's what the Florida DMV has to say about the line for a left turn backing up into the left highway lane:

6.If you are not going a safe speed or are not in the proper lane you should drive to the next intersection to make your turn. And if there are vehicles occupying the turn lane you should not block traffic. Continue on to the next intersection.

Now how many of us actually do THAT?????

[Walter123]

From Florida statutes:
316.151 Required position and method of turning at intersections.�
(1) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do so as follows:
(a) Right turn.�Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway.

(b) Left turn.�The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left at any intersection shall approach the intersection in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of such vehicle, and, after entering the intersection, the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection in a lane lawfully available to traffic moving in such direction upon the roadway being entered. A person riding a bicycle and intending to turn left in accordance with this section is entitled to the full use of the lane from which the turn may legally be made. Whenever practicable the left turn shall be made in that portion of the intersection to the left of the center of the intersection.

Interestingly here's what the Florida DMV has to say about the line for a left turn backing up into the left highway lane:

6.If you are not going a safe speed or are not in the proper lane you should drive to the next intersection to make your turn. And if there are vehicles occupying the turn lane you should not block traffic. Continue on to the next intersection.

Now how many of us actually do THAT?????


It's weird the way the quots and responses are coming out.

[graciegirl]

Of course. Isn't that what makes TOTV a great forum?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:



I have been drawn into quite a few and I don't have the right equipment and it gets very uncomfortable.

[golfing eagles]

I have been drawn into quite a few and I don't have the right equipment and it gets very uncomfortable.

You know , GG, that I try to avoid them as well. But sometimes a poster just needs to be called out, if not for an off-base opinion but for their decorum

[dbussone]

[QUOTE=dbussone;1188668]



Agreed---just don't be there when the light changes. And as I posted above, don't enter it when it is obvious you are not going to be able to turn safely due to oncoming flow of traffic. What I'm really getting at is the times when 1 or 2 cars are coming and the light won't change for a while, which are the same times that a red arrow would be a detriment rather than an enhancement.


We agree.

[Bogie Shooter]

You mean decorum like this?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[golfing eagles]

You mean decorum like this?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Obviously not!:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

That little guy is almost a requirement (sorry P Bear)

More like nasty name calling, the kind the rest of us outgrew in grade school

[cquick]

I do think it's a great plan to lower the speed limit to 45 MPH in that area. There is a new shopping center going up on the south side of Hwy. 44, and the existing shopping center at Publix, so the speed limit should be 45MPH

[golfing eagles]

I do think it's a great plan to lower the speed limit to 45 MPH in that area. There is a new shopping center going up on the south side of Hwy. 44, and the existing shopping center at Publix, so the speed limit should be 45MPH

That really isn't a bad idea, after all the speed limit drops shortly past Grand Traverse headed west anyway, and the eastbound traffic can certainly wait another 3/4 mile to speed up to 55. I guess the government decision on this may depend on whether speed, rather than stupidity, was determined to be a factor in the accidents that have occurred there.

[Polar Bear]

...Case closed...
Only in your mind.

[photo1902]

Only in your mind.

that matters most!

[Polar Bear]

that matters most!

Not when driving...'right' matters most.

[photo1902]

Not when driving...'right' matters most.

And for that reason, I err on the side of safety, rather than trying to save a few minutes in traffic.

[Polar Bear]

And for that reason, I err on the side of safety, rather than trying to save a few minutes in traffic.
You are not erring on the side of safety. Making a left turn on a green ball at a properly designed intersection is perfectly safe. And it significantly increases the traffic handling capacity of an intersection...without compromising safety.

You are never 100% safe using any transportation system. But you are as safe making a left-turn-yield movement as you are anyplace else in the system. And that includes going past the stop bar as oncoming traffic approaches, then proceeding when a gap appears. Or if there is no gap, you wait for the signal to turn red...not yellow, red...and then complete your left turn while being aware of possible red-light-runners. You have plenty of time to safely complete the left turn in any case. And it is perfectly legal to complete your left turn on the red light as long as you were in the intersection PRIOR TO the light turning red.

By the way, "Don't Block the Box" refers to blocking an intersection such that you can't move after your light turns red. That keeps opposing traffic that has green from moving and in a worst case scenario causes gridlock. It does NOT refer to a left turner awaiting a gap or a signal change to complete a turn into an open lane.

Just for the record, I am a Professional Engineer in the State of Florida. I have a Masters Degree in Transportation Engineering from the University of Florida. I worked in the field for roughly thirty years before retiring.

[photo1902]

You are not erring on the side of safety. Making a left turn on a green ball at a properly designed intersection is perfectly safe. And it significantly increases the traffic handling capacity of an intersection...without compromising safety.

You are never 100% safe using any transportation system. But you are as safe making a left-turn-yield movement as you are anyplace else in the system. And that includes going past the stop bar as oncoming traffic approaches, then proceeding when a gap appears. Or if there is no gap, you wait for the signal to turn red...not yellow, red...and then complete your left turn while being aware of possible red-light-runners. You have plenty of time to safely complete the left turn in any case. And it is perfectly legal to complete your left turn on the red light as long as you were in the intersection PRIOR TO the light turning red.

By the way, "Don't Block the Box" refers to blocking an intersection such that you can't move after your light turns red. That keeps opposing traffic that has green from moving and in a worst case scenario causes gridlock. It does NOT refer to a left turner awaiting a gap or a signal change to complete a turn into an open lane.

Just for the record, I am a Professional Engineer in the State of Florida. I have a Masters Degree in Transportation Engineering from the University of Florida. I worked in the field for roughly thirty years before retiring.

I was referring to those who creep out into the intersection waiting for the yellow so they can make a turn. And you damn sake better err on the side of safety when you drive.

[Polar Bear]

I was referring to those who creep out into the intersection waiting for the yellow so they can make a turn. And you damn sake better err on the side of safety when you drive.
I know you were. And as long as they wait either for a gap or for the signal to turn red (not yellow) they are making the left turn properly...and safely.

[photo1902]

I know you were. And as long as they wait either for a gap or for the signal to turn red (not yellow) they are making the left turn properly...and safely.

Agreed.

[bagboy]

How many cars can cross the stop bar and wait on a red light to make their left turn at one time ? Safely and legally?

[golfing eagles]

How many cars can cross the stop bar and wait on a red light to make their left turn at one time ? Safely and legally?

Probably 2 or 3, but I NEVER pull into the intersection behind a car that has already done so---you lose all control of the situation and are now dependent on the actions of the guy in front of you, not a good idea, especially in TV. As far as the light changing red and getting stuck in the intersection, it rarely happens, not if you are paying attention, but while you may draw a horn or a finger, I doubt anyone who was stopped in the cross road would accelerate right into you when the light changes

[Polar Bear]

How many cars can cross the stop bar and wait on a red light to make their left turn at one time ? Safely and legally?
It really just depends on the geometrics of the intersection. But like GE said, if you're not the first, you have lost some control of the situation.

As far as getting stuck in the intersection when the light turns red, it should never happen. You must keep the signal in view and be aware when it changes to red. Then, you complete your turn after making sure all the approaching traffic is stopping. There is plenty of time to do this safely. At larger intersections, there is usually a brief, 1-2 second all-red phase between a change of green phases. This is specifically to allow clearing of the intersection, insuring safety against yellow-light-stretchers/red-light-runners, and allowing left turns to be completed.

[Miles42]

Stop all the crap about right turn on red. To many think they have the right away over on coming traffic. Lets just have red means stop no exceptions.

[The Buckeyes]

This intersection has an additional 'feature', it has a significant hump, not sure if this has contributed to any of the accidents, as you may need to slow down going through it. I did see a very close call at this intersection, when apparently I was taking too long to make a SAFE left turn on to Powell. The car behind me came thru with me and the on coming (East bound) vehicle had to hit their brakes hard to avoid hitting the car behind me.

Not enough of this hump and valley has been mentioned. I believe it is one of the major problems causing the accidents as people familiar slow down tremendously while others proceed at a normal speed and bottom out their front end. You can see all the marks in the intersection. Very poor planning!

[The Buckeyes]

No, using the HP of the vehicle to avoid an accident, when appropriate. You assume too much

It's knowing the lay of the land which helps. For those unfamiliar it doesn't. As to HP, I have a supercharged muscle car and will not take it thru that intersection of 44 and Powell due to that dip in the intersection. How could someone from the DOT approve that.

[Polar Bear]

Stop all the crap about right turn on red...

???