Question for Teachers or Grammar Experts

[Cassie325]

We are having a family debate and need some help from English teachers and/or Grammar experts. Any back up would be helpful as well.

Here are two examples of sentences...please tell us which one is correct in regards to using a comma:

1) While Mary was traveling through the East Coast she stayed overnight in New York, Pennsylvania, and Maine.

OR

2) While Mary was traveling through the East Coast she stayed overnight in New York, Pennsylvania and Maine.

We appreciate any feedback...

[Midge538]

, and Maine.

[Prizmz]

Both versions are acceptable, but the latter is better because the last comma clearly separates the final items in the series. When the final comma is omitted, there is a chance the final two items become a unit like peanutbutter and jelly or ham and eggs.

The clearest use is to include one fewer commas than items in a series.

The introductory adverbial clause should be marked with a comma before "Mary" for clarity between the two elements of the thought. The rule cites the length of the introduction as the factor to use a comma or not to create lucidity.

[Boomer]

, and Maine.

I vote with Midge.

Commas after the state name, too, in the middle of a sentence.

And if you want to see an example -- well, sort of an example -- look at the title of the TOTV Political Forum on the opening list. If that comma were not after Florida, it would look like we were allowed to talk only about Florida politics.

What a difference a comma makes -- sometimes.

Please do not look closely at my own punctuation. OK?

Boomer

[Cassie325]

Both versions are acceptable, but the latter is better because the last comma clearly separates the final items in the series. When the final comma is omitted, there is a chance the final two items become a unit like peanutbutter and jelly or ham and eggs.

The clearest use is to include one fewer commas than items in a series.

The introductory adverbial clause should be marked with a comma before "Mary" for clarity between the two elements of the thought. The rule cites the length of the introduction as the factor to use a comma or not to create lucidity.

Prizmz...thanks...now can you tell this to me in terms that a 6th grader would understand...or rather so that I can explain it in 6th grade terms? ;)

Boomer: I understand about the punctuation...I wish there was a grammar check along with spell check!!

[Boomer]

......Boomer: I understand about the punctuation...I wish there was a grammar check along with spell check!!


Cassie,

Stopitstopitstopit.

Do not wish that grammar check thing on anybody. I broke up long ago with grammar check.

That thing does not know a good compound-complex sentence when it sees one.

And the beauty of the introductory adverbial clause is wasted on grammar check.

And that thing insisted upon calling my short, choppy, incomplete sentences, that I do so love to write, "fragments." Yep, it called them "fragments"! So I just told that grammar check to go frag itself and we broke up. How dare that thing expect both a subject and a predicate from me!

Now, you listen to Boomer. Hear me, now, please. Do not even THINK about trying to get that grammar check thing in here. You can't build nuance into a computer.

Boomer

[Cassie325]

Cassie,

Stopitstopitstopit.

Do not wish that grammar check thing on anybody. I broke up long ago with grammar check.

That thing does not know a good compound-complex sentence when it sees one.

And the beauty of the introductory adverbial clause is wasted on grammar check.

And that thing insisted upon calling my short, choppy, incomplete sentences, that I do so love to write, "fragments." Yep, it called them "fragments"! So I just told that grammar check to go frag itself and we broke up. How dare that thing expect both a subject and a predicate from me!

Now, you listen to Boomer! Hear me please. Do not even THINK about trying to get that grammar check thing in here. You can't build nuance into a computer.

Boomer


:bowdown: Listening!! I promise!!

LOL! I know you are absolutely serious....but it truly made me laugh out loud!!


Ok...NO GRAMMAR CHECK!! :cus: thing!!

:mademyday:

[Prizmz]

Show that there are separate units (phrases or clauses for you - students need only to recognize parts of thought) in the entire thought.

Show the distinct parts of the thought 1. intro tells "when" and 2. the rest tells "what". The introductory part doesn't make sense alone; it adds to the primary part of the thought. The second part of the thought is the primary part (it makes sense alone, and it could be its own sentence).

Show commas as "markers" separating the parts to assure clarity. Commas are not arbitrary. Many folks feel, "It's been a long time since I used a comma; so, I should put some in."

Concerning the list of states, if it makes sense to use a comma to separate NY and PA, continue the pattern putting a comma between PA and ME (PA, and ME). Using one comma fewer than the number of series items will always engender clarity.

Let me know if this helps.

[njgranny]

While Mary was traveling through the East Coast she stayed overnight in New York, Pennsylvania, and Maine.

There should be a comma between Coast and she.

While Mary was travelling through the East Coast, she stayed ........

[Best Mom]

Njgranny,
You are so right.!!

Yes, I taught English in middle school for many years.

Our language is always changing and it is more important to not be afraid to post.
We have a President that just kills grammar. So you can be President and get through Ivy League schools and become President...without knowing grammar!( I don't know how he did it!) I read for the message, not the spelling or grammar. It is the thought that counts. (Unless you are in school or for a job interview etc.)

[Taltarzac]

http://www.protrainco.com/info/essays/serial-comma.htm

[golfnut]

# 2

[njgranny]

As long as I can understand a post, it doesn't matter to me how it's written either. I'm so used to my husband's strange style of writing (English is his second language), that not much phases me. ;););)

I only put in my two cents because Cassie had questions about grammar to solve a family debate.

[Cassie325]

I only put in my two cents because Cassie had questions about grammar to solve a family debate.

Thanks for your 2 cents!! I love it and always appreciated!

However, I am not sure who has won the debate yet...seems we all have different answers!! :laugh:;)

[golfnut]

not sure there is only one right answer, here.....GN

[redwitch]

Modern-day usage drops the comma before "and," "or," etc. Blame newspapers and attorneys. Newspaper columns need to keep things as brief as possible (the less words, the more ads). Courts today require word counts on briefs. The count is every five characters. So, commas are dropped when possible. BTW -- the newest issue is where to put the quotation marks: "and," or "and", since the comma is not part of the quote. So, it really helps to know the teacher's preference. Mom's choice doesn't count on this one. Sorry.

A good reference book to have around is "Elements of Style." It's used by attorneys, professors, writers.

[graciegirl]

Modern-day usage drops the comma before "and," "or," etc. Blame newspapers and attorneys. Newspaper columns need to keep things as brief as possible (the less words, the more ads). Courts today require word counts on briefs. The count is every five characters. So, commas are dropped when possible. BTW -- the newest issue is where to put the quotation marks: "and," or "and", since the comma is not part of the quote. So, it really helps to know the teacher's preference. Mom's choice doesn't count on this one. Sorry.

A good reference book to have around is "Elements of Style." It's used by attorneys, professors, writers.


Spoken, and written, like a person who has spent a goodly amount of time writing for and with lawyers. (Which I know you have.):)

[Prizmz]

Spoken, and written, like a person who has spent a goodly amount of time writing for and with lawyers. (Which I know you have.):)

When did "goodly" become an acceptable adjective?

[Boomer]

When did "goodly" become an acceptable adjective?


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/goodly

Hey, GG, I got your back!

Boomer ;)

[Best Mom]

How silly....I said language has to fit the purpose.
I was agreeing with Njgranny and I agree with Red. Those are two DIFFERENT places to put or not put a comma. You have a right to your opinion but not to tell some one else they are wrong. The poster who said there is NO ONE way is on the right track. Language is flexable. I still agree with Njgranny.

I taught for over 32 years and corrected many NY State English Regents. I remember many debates over commas.

[Karen83]

Boomer,

You make this "Back Door Cincinnati Gal", ( I'm from Northern Ky), very proud!:thumbup:

(I am quite sure I didn't place my comma's or anything else in that sentence correctly)

Karen

[graciegirl]

When did "goodly" become an acceptable adjective?

I don't know. It flowed from my brain. Maybe goodly is as good as kindly which you weren't very to me.

Not articulate Gracie.

[redwitch]

Prizmz, it seems the answer is at least since the 12th century. Per Miriam-Webster online dictionary:

"good·ly
Pronunciation: \ˈgu̇d-lē\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): good·li·er; good·li·est
Date: before 12th century
1 : pleasantly attractive
2 : significantly large : considerable <a goodly number"

And thank you, Gracie, I think. I'm not sure that writing for and with attorneys is a good thing or not but it does mean that you can at least be articulate, albeit wordy. :shrug:

[Cassie325]

Alright...now I am confused...I honestly did not think this was a topic that would start a fight!:ohdear:

Seriously...this was a debate the family had...apparently we are ALL right as it can go one way or the other depending on the circumstances.

I will go with the advice of Red....Mom's choice doesn't matter...depends on whatever the teacher of the moment wants....

As adults I guess we choose whatever we want....

Thank you all for your advice and wisdom....that is all I was looking for!! No arguing!! PLEASE!! Just friendly opinions!:beer3:

[Cassie325]

I don't know. It flowed from my brain. Maybe goodly is as good as kindly which you weren't very to me.

Not articulate Gracie.

GG....thank you for being goodly and your wisdom....

P...thank you for your wisdom and goodliness as well!

I appreciate it all!!!

[samhass]

Gracie, you are quite articulate. You are also kind, generous, loving, spontaneous and intelligent. I am thrilled to have you as a friend. Note that I did not place a comma after spontaneous.:laugh:;)

[Cassie325]

Gracie, you are quite articulate. You are also kind, generous, loving, spontaneous and intelligent. I am thrilled to have you as a friend. Note that I did not place a comma after spontaneous.:laugh:;)

With THIS quote I WIN the debate!! Beautifully said and written!!:agree:





However for the child's sake....I will do as the teacher asks!! LOL:cus:

[chelsea24]

While Mary was traveling through the East Coast she stayed overnight in New York, Pennsylvania, and Maine.

or . . .

Exploring the East Coast, Mary stayed overnight in New York, Pennsylvania, and Maine.

Stronger sentence I think. :laugh: :shrug:

[chuckinca]

While Mary was traveling through the East Coast she stayed overnight in New York, Pennsylvania, and Maine.

There should be a comma between Coast and she.

While Mary was travelling through the East Coast, she stayed ........




AGREE - but then I bombed the business letter writing quiz last week.


.

[chuckinca]

Can you get from PA or NY to Maine in one day?

No stop in Boston?

.

[chelsea24]

Can you get from PA or NY to Maine in one day?

No stop in Boston?

.

Good point Chuck! How can anyone miss Boston! What a beautiful city! :laugh:

[Cassie325]

Can you get from PA or NY to Maine in one day?

No stop in Boston?

.

I agree with Chelsea.....if you know the East coast....you would stay over in Boston, PROBABLY for several days!!! :beer3: CHEERS!!!

However....it was the comma in question not the actual states they stayed in....:1rotfl::clap2: Thanks for the smile!!!

[Best Mom]

Cassie,
OMG
Stop knocking teachers!!!
Stop trying make it someone is right, someone is wrong!
Everyone has come around to what I said. I think we are all in agreement.

Silly....

[Boomer]

AGREE - but then I bombed the business letter writing quiz last week.


.

Chuck,

You think you got problems? I am still having flashbacks from how awful I did on that spelling test that was on here a few weeks ago.

Boomer

[renielarson]

All I can say is this:

As a third grade teacher we are instructed, here in Michigan, to put a comma after a list and before the word and.

Whether right or wrong...so be it. Does it really matter?

[Best Mom]

Bright,
Yep, that is what I taught too. But you are so right, that a comma means very little.

[Best Mom]

Bommer,
I could never spell either ....

[Boomer]

What ever happened to that rule, "When in doubt, leave it out"?

Boomer

(Uh oh. I just noticed that it's after midnight and I am not supposed to be typing after midnight.)

[Cassie325]

Cassie,
OMG
Stop knocking teachers!!!
Stop trying make it someone is right, someone is wrong!
Everyone has come around to what I said. I think we are all in agreement.

Silly....


Oh, I really am not knocking teachers....I love them....my mother was one...but each teacher has a different opinion, so my point was in agreement with Red....I may have won the family debate....but as far as the child goes...it is whatever the teacher tells her is so....as there is no point in arguing with the teacher.....whom she loves dearly!!!

Trust me....I LOVE the teachers....they are truly a Godsend!!! My daughter LOVES MATH....and LANGUAGE ARTS....and GEOGRAPHY.....thanks to the teachers!!!!

[Best Mom]

This was to Boomer. My computer is so slow. That is one thing (computers) I don't understand at all.


Late...I am going to bed.

[Cassie325]

All I can say is this:

As a third grade teacher we are instructed, here in Michigan, to put a comma after a list and before the word and.

Whether right or wrong...so be it. Does it really matter?

YES....it matters to the child who wants to get it right for the test next week!! Would you want your student to ask that question? I am glad mine asked!!

[Best Mom]

Ok.... but I agree with Red and many others on that thread.


Most teachers agree after we sort it out. It depends on the purpose of the writing and/or the meaning of the sentence.

I just want everybody to be nice. !!!!
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Not too worry. Good night Cassie.(You are a sweetie)

[Cassie325]

Ok.... but I agree with Red and many others on that thread.


Most teachers agree after we sort it out. It depends on the purpose of the writing and/or the meaning of the sentence.

I just want everybody to be nice. !!!!
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Not too worry. Good night Cassie.(You are a sweetie)


Love you too!!! Thanks for your help~!! It all depends on so much....just want to teach the child the right way....and sometimes the right way is the teachers way....atleast in school.....LOL!!

You are a sweetie as well!!! No worries here my friend!!!

[Best Mom]

Cassie,
Yes on a grammar test it matters and we all agreed put the commar before the , and.
Good night sweetie. Don't I sound like an old lady....just trying to let you know you are loved.

[graciegirl]

Another wonderful thing about this place, THE VILLAGES, is that we can write unafraid, writing among the word-smiths that did it for a living all of their life, i.e. Chelsea, RedWitch, Prismz, and many others,.... and we can write, unafraid, among the gifted and dedicated teachers, who encouraged, instructed and graded, i.e. Best Mom, Brightspot, maybe Boomer, (if she wasn't an English teacher, she should have been.)

It is the joy of communicating that matters here!!:pepper2: Thank heavens we are just auditing, not being edited.:coolsmiley:

[TallerTrees]

Njgranny,
You are so right.!!

Yes, I taught English in middle school for many years.

Our language is always changing and it is more important to not be afraid to post.
We have a President that just kills grammar. So you can be President and get through Ivy League schools and become President...without knowing grammar!( I don't know how he did it!) I read for the message, not the spelling or grammar. It is the thought that counts. (Unless you are in school or for a job interview etc.)
Best Mom:

I have worked with scientists and other PhD types throughout the years. Most of them couldn't spell or put two sentences together.

I must tell you though, in their fields, they had genius. Bottom line, have a good command of the English language is NOT a prerequisite for intelligence.

P.S. Get off the President's back. He kept us safe since 9/11. Can you do that !!!

[Cassie325]

I can not believe that this turned fiesty...come on TOTVers....it was just a question. A simple question with apparently not such a simple answer.

Thank you to all that gave well thought out answers....I have what I came looking for...and much more;).

Thanks again.