Unreasonable Pin Placements

[JohnFromMaine]

Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.

[dewilson58]

I always think sand traps, water and trees are put in unfair places.

Besides, moving the cups to all areas of the green is good for the greens.

Enjoy the journey.

[Mikeod]

When you encounter situations like this, contact the facility manager/pro at the country club responsible for the executive course you are on and let them know. They will investigate and have the hole position changed if they agree. Unfortunately, it won't help you, but those playing later will thank you.

This happened to us at Roosevelt #9 one day when the hole was cut at the top of the false front. Putts that were short would roll back of the green and putts from above the holed would roll off the green unless they went in. Putts from either side would roll off the front of the green if they missed the hole. We contacted Havana and they changed the hole. They also contacted the contractor to let them know about the hole position.

[Polar Bear]

...We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun...
Heheh. The fact is...pros would never play pin positions like many we face. USGA has guidelines/rules and many local pin placements would not meet them.

But I don't worry about it. I think it's so they can just keep the locations moving and keep the greens in better shape. Sometimes I just chuckle a little, maybe give myself a bit longer gimme than usual, and move on. :)

[asianthree]

If all pin placements were in the perfect place where would be the challenge.

[Polar Bear]

If all pin placements were in the perfect place where would be the challenge.
There's perfect, then there's playable. The vast majority are just fine. A few...not so much. :)

[Jima64]

If all pin placements were in the perfect place where would be the challenge.

Where would the fun be if everyone scored the same. Agree completely with you.

[MikeV]

I agree on the pin placements but one thing bothers me more and that is the domes around the holes caused by improper hole cutter removal. Watch any pro golf and you'll see the hole on a flat even surface where the ball does not make a severe turn just as it reaches the hole or it goes in and out or rims around. This raises all our scores significantly.

[Polar Bear]

Where would the fun be if everyone scored the same. Agree completely with you.
How in the world do pin placements make everyone score the same???If all pin placements were in the perfect place where would be the challenge.
Challenge?!? I must play a different game than you do. If all pin placements were at the bottom of a funnel, golf would still manage to humiliate and demoralize me. Must be why I love it so much! :icon_wink:

[JohnFromMaine]

If all pin placements were in the perfect place where would be the challenge.

... and if all were in the worst place, like 8 of 9 today, where's the enjoyment? Just a difference placement of 3 or 4 feet would have been just fine.

[JohnFromMaine]

Where would the fun be if everyone scored the same. Agree completely with you.

If all the placements are in the easiest locations, you still wouldn't see everyone score the same.

[JohnFromMaine]

There's perfect, then there's playable. The vast majority are just fine. A few...not so much. :)

I agree. What stood out to us today was that 8 of 9 were bad. One or two is a challenge but 8 takes the fun out of the game.

[JohnFromMaine]

When you encounter situations like this, contact the facility manager/pro at the country club responsible for the executive course you are on and let them know. They will investigate and have the hole position changed if they agree.

Thanks. Good to know. :coolsmiley:

[HOPSKIPJUMP]

For all who remember back 12 -15 years the same thing we have all encountered here in TV golf courses, that is stupid pin placement ,not tough not easy but stupid on the side of a hill on the green happened to Payne Steward in the PGA Tournament. It cost him the Tournament. He complained & the PGA agreed& since then both the PGA & the USGA have adopted rules on where a pin can & can not be placed & they can no longer be placed on slopes that could be used for Down Hill Sking. I believe it is called a Stemp Meter. True at the time Steward missed his putt all the other players had to hit the same cup, after that indecent the placement of the pin was defined. I played Okeechobee yesterday & encountered 5 or 6 stupid pin placements 3 or 4 foot from the edge & a couple on the side of a hill. It would be nice if the people who place the pins were given a heads up on where to place them & where not to place them.

[justjim]

Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.

OP, I agree there should be "supervision" by somebody who knows USGA rules regarding pin placement and perhaps more important supervision on the cutting and placement of the cup. We deserve better for the good of the game. The Pros should provide instruction and routinely monitor the courses for pins and holes that are not in compliance.

[JoMar]

Why don't they make the easy pin placements on courses rated a 1 and then make them increasingly challenging till you get to a 4 rated course? Then, as we get better we can move to a higher level of challenge. They have already started using the larger cups and I suspect that will expand to accommodate those of us that just can't put...:)

[asianthree]

... and if all were in the worst place, like 8 of 9 today, where's the enjoyment? Just a difference placement of 3 or 4 feet would have been just fine.

Well let's see you woke up this morning. it's was a beautiful day so you could play, you enjoyed the company you were with. A few holes caused you to pause and think a different hole placement would have made this day perfect. Nope first three are good for me, since are no fans or sponsors to be upset with me.
I am happy that some one changes the placement so when I wake up, enjoy the game, and the company, tomorrow it's different. Just have different priorities and someone give me a challenge to think how to putt better.
If you have ever played Oakland Hills in Michigan there's some pin placement that really would drive you crazy

[Polar Bear]

Don't mean to sound snooty, but there are pin placements that simply do not even come close to meeting USGA requirements for pin placements. There are many requirements, but here is one I'll bet some on this thread are referring to.

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

Check out the full list here: United States Golf Association (http://www.usga.org/rulesfaq/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule=16)

Don't let it ruin your day...agreed. But don't be under the false presumption that the pros deal with some of these more extreme placements. They don't. At least not in tournament play.

[drcar]

OP, I agree there should be "supervision" by somebody who knows USGA rules regarding pin placement and perhaps more important supervision on the cutting and placement of the cup. We deserve better for the good of the game. The Pros should provide instruction and routinely monitor the courses for pins and holes that are not in compliance.

Just asking, do you know the USGA rules regrading pin placements?

[triton18]

Try Pool the surface is flat six holes to shot for. If golf was easy we would all be on tour!!

[Challenger]

Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.
Right on. The people placing holes are clearly ignorant of the difficulty level they create. Played Tarpon tonight- at least three silly placements. Slows play.

Far too difficult for the level of players on execs

[Walter123]

Poor pin placement slows down the pace of play but I don't care. What bothers me more is the mound (if that is what you would call it) around the hole that makes the ball veer off an inch from the hole.

[Biker Dog]

Poor pin placement slows down the pace of play but I don't care. What bothers me more is the mound (if that is what you would call it) around the hole that makes the ball veer off an inch from the hole.

:agree:

[rubicon]

Yea, pin placement just unfair, wind too, sore elbow .............

I take the course as I find it. No excuses for me, no do overs and no six inch holes. And I do add a stroke to my game if the ball moves

[JohnFromMaine]

Yea, pin placement just unfair, wind too, sore elbow .............

I take the course as I find it. No excuses for me, no do overs and no six inch holes. And I do add a stroke to my game if the ball moves

Yes, I do take the course as I find it and make no excuses. But that doesn't make unreasonable reasonable. BTW, I enjoy the challenge of a windy day on the golf course and I certainly have no complaint for its creator. :icon_wink:

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

Check out the full list here: United States Golf Association (http://www.usga.org/rulesfaq/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule=16)

Thanks Polar Bear.

Here's the beginning of USGA Rule 16. Note that while it says there are no rules, good judgement should be used.

Rule 16:
"Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green

"Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

"A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes."

[Roaddog53]

Just asking, do you know the USGA rules regrading pin placements?Rule 16

Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green

Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:

Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, conditions of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the green.
There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green.
An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
Consider the condition of nearby turf, especially taking care to avoid old hole plugs which have not completely healed.
Holes should be cut as nearly on the vertical as possible, not plumb with the contour of the green.
There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front and back positions. For example, avoid too many left positions with resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots.

[Challenger]

Rule 16

Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green

Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:

Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, conditions of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the green.
There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green.
An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
Consider the condition of nearby turf, especially taking care to avoid old hole plugs which have not completely healed.
Holes should be cut as nearly on the vertical as possible, not plumb with the contour of the green.
There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front and back positions. For example, avoid too many left positions with resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots.
All of this means that the person placing the hole needs to have a basic understanding of the game and good judgment. currently every principle addressed by the USGA statement is being ignored frequently.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I agree on the pin placements but one thing bothers me more and that is the domes around the holes caused by improper hole cutter removal. Watch any pro golf and you'll see the hole on a flat even surface where the ball does not make a severe turn just as it reaches the hole or it goes in and out or rims around. This raises all our scores significantly.

Much of the time those domes are not caused by improper cup cutting, but rather by many golfers stepping in a circle within a foot or so of the hole. What's actually happening is that an area from one to two feet from the hole is being depressed by foot traffic while the area within one foot from the hole remains high. Hardly anyone steps that close to the hole when retrieving their ball, nor should they. This is usually the case after several groups have played the course.
If six groups play the course that means twenty four people have stepped into he area to which I am referring. It doesn't take much more than that to create the illusion of a mound, or what Dave Pelz refers to s the lumpy donut.
Even with this situation, most putts hit at the proper speed on the correct line will go in. Putts that die in the hole have little or no chance of going in.
The perfect speed for a putt is the speed that would cause the ball to roll 15"-18" past the hole if it misses the hole. Slower than 15" and the lumpy donut takes affect the the ball will be thrown off line at the last second. Faster than 18" and the chance of a ball not exactly in the center of the holes going in is greatly reduced. There comes a point where even a ball that hits the hole directly in the center won't go in if it's going to fast.
Work on the speed of your putts. Lay a club down 15" behind the hole and putt from various distances trying to make the ball just come to rest against the club.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Yea, pin placement just unfair, wind too, sore elbow .............

I take the course as I find it. No excuses for me, no do overs and no six inch holes. And I do add a stroke to my game if the ball moves

Yea, that's my feeling as well. The game was never meant to be perfect. People like to compare the conditions that the see on television. I like to have people look at the conditions that existed over the first couple hundred years that the game was played. They played on pastures and the rule was to play the ball as it lies. Today if conditions are less than perfect people want to take preferred lies. Hitting out of bad lies is a skill required to play the game.
When I played I found nothing so satisfying than to hit a great shot out of a bad lie and never say anything about it. I knew what a great job I had done and that was enough for me.
You'll find that good players practice playing out of bad lies.
Bad hole locations? Try putting on your front lawn to get an understanding of how the game was originally played.
We actually only have to look back less than 100 years to see the scores shot by Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Same Snead, Hogan and the rest of the players of that era and know that the conditions that we have today are far better then a US Open course in the 1930s or 40s.

[Bogie Shooter]

You can complain, bitch and whine all you want on this thread and it will accomplish nothing.
The answer is in Mike's post #3.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you encounter situations like this, contact the facility manager/pro at the country club responsible for the executive course you are on and let them know. They will investigate and have the hole position changed if they agree. Unfortunately, it won't help you, but those playing later will thank you.

[Polar Bear]

Some of you are getting a bit self righteous in my opinion. Most of us play bad lies. We play in bad conditions. We take every penalty stroke we earn. That's called playing by USGA rules. Watching your straight uphill putt stop two inches short of the cup and then start rolling back to you is not playing by the rules.

[billethkid]

If all pin placements were in the perfect place where would be the challenge.

Please keep in mind many of us the challenge is being able to be out there.

Just how many strokes could possibly be attributed to bad pin placement.

Sorta related. How many can honestly say playing the courses with the "big" holes has improved their game/score?

Eliminating all water and underbrush and bushes and woods would help a lot more. :D

[outlaw]

Bad and inexperienced golfers don't get it. Many are out there to visit and just eat up time. They have little interest in sport or competition. To them you could mow the greens once a week and they would say "who cares, it's the same for everyone". You are wasting your time trying to convince them it's more than just walking around and socializing. That's why you have groups that seem to have to discuss where they are going to eat on the ninth green while a group is waiting to tee off. That's why the bunkers look like crap most of the time; why there are way too many unrepaired pitch marks on the greens. That's why you have golfers that don't care how slow they are playing, and really don't care who they are inconveniencing. Not in TV, of course; other places.

[dbussone]

Please keep in mind many of us the challenge is being able to be out there.



Just how many strokes could possibly be attributed to bad pin placement.



Sorta related. How many can honestly say playing the courses with the "big" holes has improved their game/score?



Eliminating all water and underbrush and bushes and woods would help a lot more. :D



BTK - I would add sand to your list as well.

[JohnFromMaine]

Some of you are getting a bit self righteous in my opinion. Most of us play bad lies. We play in bad conditions. We take every penalty stroke we earn. That's called playing by USGA rules. Watching your straight uphill putt stop two inches short of the cup and then start rolling back to you is not playing by the rules.

Couldn't have said it better. :BigApplause:

[kcrazorbackfan]

Bad and inexperienced golfers don't get it. Many are out there to visit and just eat up time. They have little interest in sport or competition. To them you could mow the greens once a week and they would say "who cares, it's the same for everyone". You are wasting your time trying to convince them it's more than just walking around and socializing. That's why you have groups that seem to have to discuss where they are going to eat on the ninth green while a group is waiting to tee off. That's why the bunkers look like crap most of the time; why there are way too many unrepaired pitch marks on the greens. That's why you have golfers that don't care how slow they are playing, and really don't care who they are inconveniencing. Not in TV, of course; other places.

:boom: How right you are....

[tomwed]

1] Hit the ball to the center of the green and 2 putt.
2] If you are not that good make your target in between the pin and the furthest hazard to give yourself a little wiggle room unless the hazard is in the front. Hit an extra club if it's in the front.
3] If you care that much about score, practice and play from the back tees on a championship course.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Played TDS today; some (a lot) of the front and back pin placements were about 2 good steps (6') from the fringe; greens were in REALLY good shape other than being a little slow.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Some of you are getting a bit self righteous in my opinion. Most of us play bad lies. We play in bad conditions. We take every penalty stroke we earn. That's called playing by USGA rules. Watching your straight uphill putt stop two inches short of the cup and then start rolling back to you is not playing by the rules.

I didn't intend to get self righteous. I was only explaining my feelings when I play.

That's the great thing about golf. Everyone can enjoy it in their own way. If you just want to go and knock the ball around a pasture, that's fine by me. If you want to compete at the highest level, that's fine as well. There's room for everyone in this great game.

By the way, I've played US Open courses where if you didn't get on the right side of the hole you had almost no chance of keeping the ball on the green when you putt.I've also played tour courses where if you didn't get your ball to the hole it would come back to your feet. No one likes it, but sometimes that's what you run into. I wouldn't allow myself to get that upset over it. It's not worth it. In tournament golf where those kind of things can make a difference between making a cut or making a check, it can be extremely frustrating, but in casual rounds of golf, I try not to do that to myself.

[Polar Bear]

...I've played US Open courses where if you didn't get on the right side of the hole you had almost no chance of keeping the ball on the green when you putt.I've also played tour courses where if you didn't get your ball to the hole it would come back to your feet.

I don't doubt you for a second, but I'm fairly certain the experiences you describe were not at a pro tour event, or likely any USGA sanctioned event. And it's not because of any doubt about your skills :).



I'm assuming of course when you say "didn't get your ball to the hole", you mean it got pretty close to the hole. If it never got within a few feet of the whole, that's a different story altogether. But if did get close to the hole and then rolled back to your feet, it did not meet the USGA requirements for pin placement. It's that simple.



One area where I totally agree with you...I would never get upset about a pin placement here in TV. It's simply not worth it. Maybe bring it to the-powers-that-be's attention if it happened often enough just to see if they could improve education of the guys who place pins. But get upset? Nahhh.

[villages07]

I played Escambia yesterday, and, yes the pin placements were still in challenging positions. However, as an aside, I must say the greens were in absolutely perfect condition...just about the best I have ever seen in TV. Kudos to whomever does the maintenance down there.

[bagboy]

I didn't intend to get self righteous. I was only explaining my feelings when I play.

That's the great thing about golf. Everyone can enjoy it in their own way. If you just want to go and knock the ball around a pasture, that's fine by me. If you want to compete at the highest level, that's fine as well. There's room for everyone in this great game.

By the way, I've played US Open courses where if you didn't get on the right side of the hole you had almost no chance of keeping the ball on the green when you putt.I've also played tour courses where if you didn't get your ball to the hole it would come back to your feet. No one likes it, but sometimes that's what you run into. I wouldn't allow myself to get that upset over it. It's not worth it. In tournament golf where those kind of things can make a difference between making a cut or making a check, it can be extremely frustrating, but in casual rounds of golf, I try not to do that to myself.

For anyone that doubts your experience and descriptions of balls rolling off the green, they should view footage of previous US OPENS held at Pinehurst #2. And yes, those tournaments are USGA sanctioned.

[Polar Bear]

For anyone that doubts your experience and descriptions of balls rolling off the green, they should view footage of previous US OPENS held at Pinehurst #2. And yes, those tournaments are USGA sanctioned.

I do not question the speed of US Open greens. That is not the same as a pin placement on a slope where the ball is not able to stop within a couple feet of the hole. Apples and oranges.

Even US Open ultra-lightening-fast greens comply with USGA pin placement requirements.

[mudpac]

Suck it up ....
Have then put some kleenex at the green !!

[Jacksn]

Pin positions at Briarwood were also cut close to edge of greens and on awkward slopes and crests of spines running thru the greens on Saturday 3/26. USGA recommends pins be cut a minimum of 10 feet from edge of greens and common sense should prevail on the locations.

[billstrickland]

That's why they made the two golf courses with the six inch holes, for cry babies like y'all. And trust me the pros play much, much harder holes than we do.

[OhioBuckeye]

Darien, sympathize with your frustration about pin placement but just my own personally opinion, I think pin placement is to make our Executive courses very challenging & they sure are. Executive courses are easy enough other than the pin placement. You ought to ask yourself, am I hitting all the greens off the tee & the answer is NO then your not playing from the right tees, hitting those big greens ought to be easy & to putt your 1st putt on a graded hole should be easy & the 2nd putt should be in the cup. But I do agree with you partly. It seems like they always put the cup on a graded slope. I guess that's what keeps us all on the public course & not on the Pro circuit!

[Jacksn]

Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.
Rule 16

Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green

Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:

Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, conditions of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the green.
There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green.
An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
Consider the condition of nearby turf, especially taking care to avoid old hole plugs which have not completely healed.
Holes should be cut as nearly on the vertical as possible, not plumb with the contour of the green.
There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front and back positions. For example, avoid too many left positions with resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots.
For a competition played over several days, the course should be kept in balance daily as to degree of difficulty. In a stroke competition, the first hole of the first round is as important as the last hole of the last round, and so the course should not be set up appreciably more difficult for any round - balanced treatment is the aim. An old concept of making the course progressively harder round after round is fallacious. One form of balanced daily treatment is to select six quite difficult, six which are moderately difficult and six which are relatively easy.
During practice days before a competition, locate holes in areas not to be used during the competition and which will not result in areas to be used being impaired by foot traffic.
Anticipate the players' traffic patterns. Locate holes for early rounds so that good hole locations for later rounds will not be spoiled by players leaving the green.
In match play, a hole location may, if necessary, be changed during a round provided the players in each match play with the hole in the same location. In stroke play, Rule 33-2b requires that all competitors in a single round play with each hole cut in the same position, but see Exception to that Rule. When 36 holes are played in one day, it is not customary for hole locations to be changed between rounds, but there is no Rule to prohibit changing them. If they are changed, all players should be informed.
The greenskeeper who cuts the holes should make sure that the Rules of Golf are observed, especially the requirements that the hole not exceed 4 ¼ inches in outer diameter and that the hole-liner be sunk at least one inch below the putting green surface.

[The Mountaineer]

#8 at Truman had the cup within 4 feet of the upper right part of the green. The only thing lacking was a windmill and putting through a clown's face. I agree that the cup has to be moved around for the good of the greens, but common sense should prevail, too. Most of the golfers are lucky to make a putt if you put the cup in the middle of a flat green. All these trick greens do is frustrate senior citizens. We're there for the fun and sun and comradarie. Not to see if we can maneuver through an obstacle course that Tiger Woods would have trouble with. Common sense, hole-punchers! Please!

[Polar Bear]

That's why they made the two golf courses with the six inch holes, for cry babies like y'all. And trust me the pros play much, much harder holes than we do.
Oh get a clue. If you read the whole thread, you'll see a reasonable discussion of pin placement. And you'll also see many who observe the "radical" pin placements also recommend not losing sleep over it. Have fun.

But google USGA pin placement. You'll see what the reasonable discussion is about. And nobody is saying the pros don't play much, much harder holes than we do. Duh! But the pros don't play pin placements like many on the Exec courses either. That's a pure fact. So quit crying about the "cry babies".

[olemon]

[QUOTE=JohnFromMaine;1204258]Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.[/QUOTE

Play one of the courses with 6" holes

[billstrickland]

Yea, pin placement just unfair, wind too, sore elbow .............

I take the course as I find it. No excuses for me, no do overs and no six inch holes. And I do add a stroke to my game if the ball moves

:bigbow:

[billstrickland]

[QUOTE=JohnFromMaine;1204258]Over this winter I have noticed some pretty unusual and, frankly, unfair pin placements. Many have been within 4 or 5 feet of the fringe and often they have been on steep slopes at the same time. Most have been on the executive courses but I have seen some on the championship courses as well.

Today (3/26/16) I played Escambia and 8 of the 9 pins were near the fringe and most were up on steep slopes as well. We all had problems with the very sharp breaks, having the ball run way past the hole or coming up just short. While there’s no excuse for missing a putt, no matter the situation, but then again, there’s no excuse for unreasonable pin placements either.

One day a few months ago I played golf with a fellow who worked as a starter. We were having to deal with similarly difficult pin placements and he told us that the staff who place the pins are not golfers. I would hope that their superiors would be, at the very least, familiar with the game and pin placements. There should be guidelines for all the golf courses for reasonable placement of the pins.

We’re not pros playing for the big bucks. We play for recreation and fun. The unreasonable pin placements take some of the enjoyment out of the game.[/QUOTE

Play one of the courses with 6" holes

:mademyday:

[rjgnj321]

No issues with Pin Placements. I am a weekend Executive Course golfer still learning to handle my clubs. I have found some difficult pin placements also but enjoy the challenge. Playing is fun and the game is challenging. Never know which game I'm bringing to the course. Hope they continue to keep the pin placements interesting. To easy makes it boring.

[JohnFromMaine]

Oh get a clue. If you read the whole thread, you'll see a reasonable discussion of pin placement. And you'll also see many who observe the "radical" pin placements also recommend not losing sleep over it. Have fun.

But google USGA pin placement. You'll see what the reasonable discussion is about. And nobody is saying the pros don't play much, much harder holes than we do. Duh! But the pros don't play pin placements like many on the Exec courses either. That's a pure fact. So quit crying about the "cry babies".

Thanks again Polar Bear.

Darien, sympathize with your frustration about pin placement but just my own personally opinion, I think pin placement is to make our Executive courses very challenging & they sure are. ... You ought to ask yourself, am I hitting all the greens off the tee & the answer is NO then your not playing from the right tees ...

OB, by "Darien," I assume you mean me.
I don't believe that those who physically move the pins know enough about golf to know how to make the executive courses more challenging and I've had two different starters confirm that.

As to hitting all the greens off the tee, I challenge you to find me a Villager, much less a pro, who hits every single par 3 green from any tee, every time. I just watched the WGC Match Play Championship and many of those guys missed more than one par 3 green during the tournament.

As for the "cry-babies" here, I don't think that there are any. We're just discussing, hopefully in a friendly manner, pin placements that reduce the enjoyment of the game being played by retired folks.

I play for fun (and exercise) and I enjoy a reasonable challenge. I don't overly mind being frustrated by things like my somewhat flawed swing, or my head looking up to see where the ball went even before it's left, or those beyond my control, such as wind. I just would like to see some more reasonable pin placements.

[billstrickland]

Don't mean to sound snooty, but there are pin placements that simply do not even come close to meeting USGA requirements for pin placements. There are many requirements, but here is one I'll bet some on this thread are referring to.

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

Check out the full list here: United States Golf Association (http://www.usga.org/rulesfaq/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule=16)

Don't let it ruin your day...agreed. But don't be under the false presumption that the pros deal with some of these more extreme placements. They don't. At least not in tournament play.

The site you referenced, DOES NOT STATE REQUIREMENTS, it states suggestions. The very first sentence tells you plainly that there are no rules or requirements for flag placement. That full list as you called it, is answer to a question. and the first sentence answers the question: THERE ARE NO RULES OR REQUIREMENTS FOR FLAG PLACEMENT.

[drperreault@mchsi.com]

I agree with John from Maine regarding "reasonable" placement of pins on our greens, especially on the executives for one big reason, "speed of play".
I have golfed for a long time and they don't bother me too much but I feel for many of the "newbies", or less experienced, to the game, it causes them many challenges reading the green for speed,slope, etc. Especially if they end up playing on a Level 3 or 4 exec. course.

None of us like to go out and have to wait and wait for slower players. More "reasonable" pin placements that aren't so challenging, is one way to help golfers get their putts in quicker, and help improve speed up play. I know there are many other things that could improve speed of play, i.e. 1) Beginners, only playing Level 1 and 2 executive level courses; 2)More training for them on golf etiquette and slow play; 3) Practicing more; 4) Getting off the tee box and fairways quicker,(numerous things they could do here to help that part of their game); 5) Ambassadors that are a little more active it helping them to speed up their play with suggestions and directions, to list a few.
We are all there to have fun and improve our game. Friendlier pin placements by people who play the game might help.

[Polar Bear]

:rant-rave:The site you referenced, DOES NOT STATE REQUIREMENTS, it states suggestions. The very first sentence tells you plainly that there are no rules or requirements for flag placement. That full list as you called it, is answer to a question. and the first sentence answers the question: THERE ARE NO RULES OR REQUIREMENTS FOR FLAG PLACEMENT.
I stand corrected. They are not requirements.

But neither are they "suggestions". The PGA and USGA adhere to the guidelines religiously for major tournaments. Just to pick one...

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

There have been major championships where a pin placement did not adhere to this "suggestion". And in defense of the groundskeepers, it's usually due to unforeseen wind and drying conditions. The pros made no bones about their feelings. And rest assured no future pin placement in that tournament pushed the limits again.

I'm not sure why you're making such a fuss over a discussion of reasonable pin placements. It's obvious there is such a thing as an unreasonable pin placement. It's a no-brainer for most knowledgeable golfers. And nobody I've heard has suggested you ruin your day over one. But you seem to want to insist that pros routinely play pin placements like some of the more radical ones on the Exec courses. That's simply not the case.

Wow, this is the second time this week...I must be getting cranky in my old age:rant-rave:...but I'm gonna bow out of this thread. It's another thread that's reached that spinning-wheels stage. I don't think there's much new to be said, and obviously (as usual) opinions will not be changed...which is okay of course. :icon_wink:

Keep it in the short grass.

[Grill Meister]

FYI, I used to be a starter/ambassador and the pin placement is supposed to be located so that there is a flat area at least three feet in circumference around the hole. This is not only for fairness to the golfers but to speed up play as well. When I would go out in the mornings to inspect my course and I notice situations with pin placements such as you described, I'd call the course managers and have the maintenance crew come out and relocate the pins. I hope those bad guys, perpetrators, toss and turn all sleepless night long after putting the pins on slopes.

[JohnFromMaine]

FYI, I used to be a starter/ambassador and the pin placement is supposed to be located so that there is a flat area at least three feet in circumference around the hole. This is not only for fairness to the golfers but to speed up play as well. When I would go out in the mornings to inspect my course and I notice situations with pin placements such as you described, I'd call the course managers and have the maintenance crew come out and relocate the pins. I hope those bad guys, perpetrators, toss and turn all sleepless night long after putting the pins on slopes.

Great to hear GM. Thanks.

Wow, this is the second time this week...I must be getting cranky in my old age:rant-rave:...but I'm gonna bow out of this thread. It's another thread that's reached that spinning-wheels stage. I don't think there's much new to be said, and obviously (as usual) opinions will not be changed...which is okay of course. :icon_wink:

Keep it in the short grass.

Well said PB. We've all had our say and made our points. And, we may not all agree but ... as you say; "... which is okay of course."

Thanks to all for your thoughts. Hopefully all the powers that be at all the country clubs will become aware of these concerns.

Hit 'em, if not long, at least straight and keep that head down. :wave:
:gc:

[dalem]

I have to agree. Played Heron yesterday and it really is obvious someone goes to to great lengths to make it almost impossible to get to the cup. I can see one or two tough pin placements but not all. Someone needs to supervise the people doing this.

[rubicon]

Bad and inexperienced golfers don't get it. Many are out there to visit and just eat up time. They have little interest in sport or competition. To them you could mow the greens once a week and they would say "who cares, it's the same for everyone". You are wasting your time trying to convince them it's more than just walking around and socializing. That's why you have groups that seem to have to discuss where they are going to eat on the ninth green while a group is waiting to tee off. That's why the bunkers look like crap most of the time; why there are way too many unrepaired pitch marks on the greens. That's why you have golfers that don't care how slow they are playing, and really don't care who they are inconveniencing. Not in TV, of course; other places.

Au contraire: Its because I love the game and respect its challenges that I do not complain about it being unfair. I suspect your comments may apply to some but not all. and just because someone does not complain about a green not mowed etc doesn't me they don't know or don't care. It may mean to them, that's the lot a drew today. I did my best. I'll mention the missed mowing to the starter.

Keep in mind that these courses get a lot of play. Keep in mind that the same people that cut a hole for pin placement are the same guys that set the tees at the tee box and they miss there also because they are not professionals caretakers on a PGA played course. BUT the person ultimately responsible for my golf game is ME.

Personal Best Regards>

PS I don't do do overs either.

[Topspinmo]

Let's see. You have all the time it takes to get set up, wear your Sunday best to play in, ride up to the ball to hit it, can use range finder to determine distance, control over the which club to use, can look see which way the wind blowing, take practice swing, and alien up the shot. Now it unfair to where the pin placed so you don't shoot bad score.


Give me break! This is too funny

[inkster]

Pin placement often reflects the attitude of the person doing the placing. It sounds like the Escambria experience reflected a really bad karma day. BTW, complaints regarding Executive Courses are best directed to the Community Development District, specifically to Eric Van Gorder (753-3396) who is responsible for executive course maintenance, and who responds directly to John Rohan. At that level, you might influence the quality of golf here.

[JoMar]

Let's see. You have all the time it takes to get set up, wear your Sunday best to play in, ride up to the ball to hit it, can use range finder to determine distance, control over the which club to use, can look see which way the wind blowing, take practice swing, and alien up the shot. Now it unfair to where the pin placed so you don't shoot bad score.


Give me break! This is too funny

:bigbow:

[Walter123]

You can complain, bitch and whine all you want on this thread and it will accomplish nothing.
The answer is in Mike's post #3.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you encounter situations like this, contact the facility manager/pro at the country club responsible for the executive course you are on and let them know. They will investigate and have the hole position changed if they agree. Unfortunately, it won't help you, but those playing later will thank you.

Sorry but this is one thread where I won't take the advice of a poster named Bogie Shooter! I hope you have a sense or humor! :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Walter123]

:rant-rave:
I stand corrected. They are not requirements.

But neither are they "suggestions". The PGA and USGA adhere to the guidelines religiously for major tournaments. Just to pick one...

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

There have been major championships where a pin placement did not adhere to this "suggestion". And in defense of the groundskeepers, it's usually due to unforeseen wind and drying conditions. The pros made no bones about their feelings. And rest assured no future pin placement in that tournament pushed the limits again.

I'm not sure why you're making such a fuss over a discussion of reasonable pin placements. It's obvious there is such a thing as an unreasonable pin placement. It's a no-brainer for most knowledgeable golfers. And nobody I've heard has suggested you ruin your day over one. But you seem to want to insist that pros routinely play pin placements like some of the more radical ones on the Exec courses. That's simply not the case.

Wow, this is the second time this week...I must be getting cranky in my old age:rant-rave:...but I'm gonna bow out of this thread. It's another thread that's reached that spinning-wheels stage. I don't think there's much new to be said, and obviously (as usual) opinions will not be changed...which is okay of course. :icon_wink:

Keep it in the short grass.

I agree PB. I never in my wildest dreams thought there could so much discussion and opinions about a four inch hole in the ground. I'll keep on putting towards the four inch hole in the ground wherever it may be until I've been put'ed into a 6 foot hole in the ground!

[Barefoot]

Let's see. You have all the time it takes to get set up, wear your Sunday best to play in, ride up to the ball to hit it, can use range finder to determine distance, control over the which club to use, can look see which way the wind blowing, take practice swing, and
line up the shot. Now it unfair to where the pin placed so you don't shoot bad score. Give me break! This is too funny
:bigbow: :ho:

[tuccillo]

I saw that situation on #1 on Volusia a few months ago; the hole was on the slope between the tiers. Uphill putts either went in or rolled back down. Downhill putts had no chance and then you putted uphill just to have your putts roll back down. Tee times were delayed because of many putts. Bad choice for pin placement by the groundskeepers.

Some of you are getting a bit self righteous in my opinion. Most of us play bad lies. We play in bad conditions. We take every penalty stroke we earn. That's called playing by USGA rules. Watching your straight uphill putt stop two inches short of the cup and then start rolling back to you is not playing by the rules.

[kcrazorbackfan]

I agree with John from Maine regarding "reasonable" placement of pins on our greens, especially on the executives for one big reason, "speed of play".
I have golfed for a long time and they don't bother me too much but I feel for many of the "newbies", or less experienced, to the game, it causes them many challenges reading the green for speed,slope, etc. Especially if they end up playing on a Level 3 or 4 exec. course.

None of us like to go out and have to wait and wait for slower players. More "reasonable" pin placements that aren't so challenging, is one way to help golfers get their putts in quicker, and help improve speed up play. I know there are many other things that could improve speed of play, i.e. 1) Beginners, only playing Level 1 and 2 executive level courses; 2)More training for them on golf etiquette and slow play; 3) Practicing more; 4) Getting off the tee box and fairways quicker,(numerous things they could do here to help that part of their game); 5) Ambassadors that are a little more active it helping them to speed up their play with suggestions and directions, to list a few.
We are all there to have fun and improve our game. Friendlier pin placements by people who play the game might help.

1. Most beginners (and probably a % of "seasoned" executive course golfers) have no idea what you're talking about or don't care; they're just looking for a tee time anywhere.
2. Training on golf etiquette and slow play? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
3. Practicing more? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Very few of them will ever give up that stiff arm backswing with the club pointed almost straight up in the air, their body sliding backward and looking like a ballerina coming up on the toes of their left foot; their downswing then starts with the forward slide while attempting to get the left heel back down all the while keeping their arms stiff and swiping at the ball pushing a worm burner dead right travelling maybe 50yds. Have I gotten their swing pretty spot on?
4. Every time the carts stop, conversations begin regarding absolutely nothing relevant about golf, or even life in general.
5. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ambassadors treat players with the utmost respect and make suggestions in the most gentlest way and people will postpone getting that after round drink to complain to the golf shop about how disrespectful the ambassadors were to them.

A large % of the guys that cut the pins probably never play the game.

[outlaw]

Au contraire: Its because I love the game and respect its challenges that I do not complain about it being unfair. I suspect your comments may apply to some but not all. and just because someone does not complain about a green not mowed etc doesn't me they don't know or don't care. It may mean to them, that's the lot a drew today. I did my best. I'll mention the missed mowing to the starter.

Keep in mind that these courses get a lot of play. Keep in mind that the same people that cut a hole for pin placement are the same guys that set the tees at the tee box and they miss there also because they are not professionals caretakers on a PGA played course. BUT the person ultimately responsible for my golf game is ME.

Personal Best Regards>

PS I don't do do overs either.

If you enjoy golf on unkempt courses, that is good for you. If you don't mind waiting 10 minutes on each tee because of slow play, more power to you. I know many people who have no problem playing tennis with old tennis balls. But better tennis players open a new can every time they step onto the court. It makes for a better experience for the better player. I think this is the same for golf, or for any sport. To each his own.

"A lot of play" does not excuse lack of respect for the course and other players. Pitch marks on the greens, and footprints in bunkers have nothing to do with the number of players. It has everything to do with inconsiderate and disrespectful players. And it doesn't take a professional caretaker on a PGA played course to take a little interest in understanding the proper pin placements. I blame the manager for not making sure his/her employees understand the basics of pin placement, cutting holes, and setting tees.

[outlaw]

1. Most beginners (and probably a % of "seasoned" executive course golfers) have no idea what you're talking about or don't care; they're just looking for a tee time anywhere.
2. Training on golf etiquette and slow play? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
3. Practicing more? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Very few of them will ever give up that stiff arm backswing with the club pointed almost straight up in the air, their body sliding backward and looking like a ballerina coming up on the toes of their left foot; their downswing then starts with the forward slide while attempting to get the left heel back down all the while keeping their arms stiff and swiping at the ball pushing a worm burner dead right travelling maybe 50yds. Have I gotten their swing pretty spot on?
4. Every time the carts stop, conversations begin regarding absolutely nothing relevant about golf, or even life in general.
5. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ambassadors treat players with the utmost respect and make suggestions in the most gentlest way and people will postpone getting that after round drink to complain to the golf shop about how disrespectful the ambassadors were to them.

A large % of the guys that cut the pins probably never play the game.

So true.

[stewartjames]

Wow! What a response ,thank you all for your comments on my job's importance. You go out in the dark each morning attempting to find ways to make the course both challenging and fun and sometimes it feels like nobody notices. The thought and preparation that we put in trying to insure that each of us has a memorable golfing experience goes on most of the night and day.
First let me apologize to this fellow villager and his group for my shortcomings of not making his day more relaxing and fun. Just a couple of weeks back we were fighting to keep these greens playable! We were coming n 2,3 4 in the am spraying ,watering,aerating the greens to rid them of black spots,bare spots, due to the short days, cold nights and extreme amount of play. Here in the villages we never have an off day. We have about 200 to 400 golfers,up 800 steps waliking the greens and it's extremely challenging to keep the conditions near perfect. Take up north ,our course was closed on Mondays ,winter and early spring and fall so we could do all our catch up maintenance. Not here we have more play than any other place in the world! Everyday we rotate the holes front ,middle, back. We move the pins left to right. Since we were struggling to keep the greens playable I was moving the holes to side positions so to relieve the large portion of the greens so they could return to the wonderful condition they are in today. I do love a challenge when I golf but will take into consideration some folks need for relaxation. We do try and get the feel of for the course,what was the intent of the designer? Place the pins to the side of a trap, front or back? Water hazards place the pin to the front near the hazard or take it out of play.? These are thoughts that cross my mind at 5am in the dark moving from green to green. We are advised to take 2 large steps from the fringe for hole placement and we are advised not to place holes on an extreme slope. Pictures are posted in the office as to not place holes in areas of unfair placement positions. For instance #9 on escambia we are not to place the hole in the center of the green in the middle the slope ,same for volusia #1. We do have young folks and persons working unfamiliar with the beautiful game of golf who are learning so please try to be understanding. I golf as many different courses here and must bite my lip when I see a hole cut short,pin unable to place in the hole,or tee markers sticking out of the ground,but I look into the big bright beautiful sky anf thank my lucky stars I still have the health and fortunate luck to be here!
We have the busiest hard working golf superintendents in the world who get little time off work night and day so we all can have the most memorable ,challenging fun day of this great game of golf.
Again my apologies to this fellow villager and his group. I will make every attempt to keep all your comments with me as I arise at 4am to make all your days a pleasurable day of golf!

[Barefoot]

Wow! What a response ,thank you all for your comments on my job's importance. You go out in the dark each morning attempting to find ways to make the course both challenging and fun and sometimes it feels like nobody notices. The thought and preparation that we put in trying to insure that each of us has a memorable golfing experience goes on most of the night and day.
First let me apologize to this fellow villager and his group for my shortcomings of not making his day more relaxing and fun. Just a couple of weeks back we were fighting to keep these greens playable! We were coming n 2,3 4 in the am spraying ,watering,aerating the greens to rid them of black spots,bare spots, due to the short days, cold nights and extreme amount of play. Here in the villages we never have an off day. We have about 200 to 400 golfers,up 800 steps waliking the greens and it's extremely challenging to keep the conditions near perfect. Take up north ,our course was closed on Mondays ,winter and early spring and fall so we could do all our catch up maintenance. Not here we have more play than any other place in the world! Everyday we rotate the holes front ,middle, back. We move the pins left to right. Since we were struggling to keep the greens playable I was moving the holes to side positions so to relieve the large portion of the greens so they could return to the wonderful condition they are in today. I do love a challenge when I golf but will take into consideration some folks need for relaxation. We do try and get the feel of for the course,what was the intent of the designer? Place the pins to the side of a trap, front or back? Water hazards place the pin to the front near the hazard or take it out of play.? These are thoughts that cross my mind at 5am in the dark moving from green to green. We are advised to take 2 large steps from the fringe for hole placement and we are advised not to place holes on an extreme slope. Pictures are posted in the office as to not place holes in areas of unfair placement positions. For instance #9 on escambia we are not to place the hole in the center of the green in the middle the slope ,same for volusia #1. We do have young folks and persons working unfamiliar with the beautiful game of golf who are learning so please try to be understanding. I golf as many different courses here and must bite my lip when I see a hole cut short,pin unable to place in the hole,or tee markers sticking out of the ground,but I look into the big bright beautiful sky and thank my lucky stars I still have the health and fortunate luck to be here!
We have the busiest hard working golf superintendents in the world who get little time off work night and day so we all can have the most memorable ,challenging fun day of this great game of golf.
Again my apologies to this fellow villager and his group. I will make every attempt to keep all your comments with me as I arise at 4am to make all your days a pleasurable day of golf! :024: Thanks for this perspective.

[outlaw]

Wow! What a response ,thank you all for your comments on my job's importance. You go out in the dark each morning attempting to find ways to make the course both challenging and fun and sometimes it feels like nobody notices. The thought and preparation that we put in trying to insure that each of us has a memorable golfing experience goes on most of the night and day.
First let me apologize to this fellow villager and his group for my shortcomings of not making his day more relaxing and fun. Just a couple of weeks back we were fighting to keep these greens playable! We were coming n 2,3 4 in the am spraying ,watering,aerating the greens to rid them of black spots,bare spots, due to the short days, cold nights and extreme amount of play. Here in the villages we never have an off day. We have about 200 to 400 golfers,up 800 steps waliking the greens and it's extremely challenging to keep the conditions near perfect. Take up north ,our course was closed on Mondays ,winter and early spring and fall so we could do all our catch up maintenance. Not here we have more play than any other place in the world! Everyday we rotate the holes front ,middle, back. We move the pins left to right. Since we were struggling to keep the greens playable I was moving the holes to side positions so to relieve the large portion of the greens so they could return to the wonderful condition they are in today. I do love a challenge when I golf but will take into consideration some folks need for relaxation. We do try and get the feel of for the course,what was the intent of the designer? Place the pins to the side of a trap, front or back? Water hazards place the pin to the front near the hazard or take it out of play.? These are thoughts that cross my mind at 5am in the dark moving from green to green. We are advised to take 2 large steps from the fringe for hole placement and we are advised not to place holes on an extreme slope. Pictures are posted in the office as to not place holes in areas of unfair placement positions. For instance #9 on escambia we are not to place the hole in the center of the green in the middle the slope ,same for volusia #1. We do have young folks and persons working unfamiliar with the beautiful game of golf who are learning so please try to be understanding. I golf as many different courses here and must bite my lip when I see a hole cut short,pin unable to place in the hole,or tee markers sticking out of the ground,but I look into the big bright beautiful sky anf thank my lucky stars I still have the health and fortunate luck to be here!
We have the busiest hard working golf superintendents in the world who get little time off work night and day so we all can have the most memorable ,challenging fun day of this great game of golf.
Again my apologies to this fellow villager and his group. I will make every attempt to keep all your comments with me as I arise at 4am to make all your days a pleasurable day of golf!

You sound like you're not enjoying your job anymore.

[JohnFromMaine]

First let me say that I do indeed very much appreciate the dedicated and hard work that the ground crews perform over the night time hours. Considering the over 10 to 12 thousand rounds played each day during the top season, the courses are in marvelous shape and I want to thank each and every one involved.

I would never have started this thread except that that day on Escambia made me realize that maybe a discussion might be helpful. Each season I see 1 or 2 poorly placed pins every once in a while. Once, 5 or 6 years ago I was putting on the 4th hole at Bogart. The hole was 3/4ths of the way up the steep slope towards the right. I putted about 12 feet up to the hole 4 or 5 times with the ball missing the hole and rolling back down to me. My fellow players were all laughing, as was I. How could one not laugh? However, when there are 8 of 9 pins such as that, I think concern should be voiced.

Today, on Volusia, all the pins were in good places. Some were tougher than others and the pin on 9 was particularly challenging but fair. 2 of us missed our putts because of deceptive reads which makes for a good and fair challenge. We were both amazed by the two different breaks but not upset.

Once again, thank you to the ground crews. You are unsung heroes. :BigApplause:

[Miles42]

Obvious that a majority of the crew that makes the pin placements and cuts the hole are not trained well.

[Challenger]

Obvious that a majority of the crew that makes the pin placements and cuts the hole are not trained well.

Clearly evident.

[Topspinmo]

If you enjoy golf on unkempt courses, that is good for you. If you don't mind waiting 10 minutes on each tee because of slow play, more power to you. I know many people who have no problem playing tennis with old tennis balls. But better tennis players open a new can every time they step onto the court. It makes for a better experience for the better player. I think this is the same for golf, or for any sport. To each his own.n

"A lot of play" does not excuse lack of respect for the course and other players. Pitch marks on the greens, and footprints in bunkers have nothing to do with the number of players. It has everything to do with inconsiderate and disrespectful players. And it doesn't take a professional caretaker on a PGA played course to take a little interest in understanding the proper pin placements. I blame the manager for not making sure his/her employees understand the basics of pin placement, cutting holes, and setting tees.

Where is there unkept course in the villages? Millions of dollars spent to keep them up! If they are unkept then maybe we don't need no more?

[kcrazorbackfan]

Played Mallory today; all the pins were fair placements on the FRESHLY SANDED GREENS. The upside to the sand was, after numerous groups had gone thru, your could see the lines in the sand showing the track to the pins. Let's face it, these ground crews do the best they can in the short allotted time they have everyday and these courses rarely have a break in the amount of play they have. With the rain we've been getting, the courses are really starting to green up; irrigated water can only help so much, but there's nothing as beneficial as good rain.

I catch myself sometimes doing what everyone does, going flag hunting, and I've found that I've actually started scoring better by firing at the center and trusting the flatstick to get me to those close to the edge pins.

[outlaw]

Where is there unkept course in the villages? Millions of dollars spent to keep them up! If they are unkept then maybe we don't need no more?

You misunderstood my comment, or I wasn't clear. Many of these executive courses are as good or better than many country club courses from a maintenance standpoint. Overall, many excellent executive courses in TV. I was referring to the golfers abusing the courses by being too lazy/inconsiderate to fix their pitch marks, sand their divots and rake the bunkers after they mess them up. They act like a bunch of pigs.

[Walter123]

You misunderstood my comment, or I wasn't clear. Many of these executive courses are as good or better than many country club courses from a maintenance standpoint. Overall, many excellent executive courses in TV. I was referring to the golfers abusing the courses by being too lazy/inconsiderate to fix their pitch marks, sand their divots and rake the bunkers after they mess them up. They act like a bunch of pigs.

In all fairness, pigs have a hard time with the raking due to the whole hoof thing.
However, I wish the pigs would fix the ground where they forage.
Ya gotta admit that those little piglets are kind of cute though! Oink, Oink.

[outlaw]

In all fairness, pigs have a hard time with the raking due to the whole hoof thing.
However, I wish the pigs would fix the ground where they forage.
Ya gotta admit that those little piglets are kind of cute though! Oink, Oink.

No disrespect meant to pigs...they don't know any better.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

You sound like you're not enjoying your job anymore.

I think that he loves his job but is a bit frustrated when people complain and don't understand what goes into maintaining a golf course.

I worked in the golf industry for 35 years and although I loved my job, it was irritating to hear people coming in after playing and complaining about little things. I was stuck in the shop for ten to twelve hours and didn't get to play as much as I would have liked and instead of appreciating how fortunate these people were to be out playing golf, they came in whining about the greens were too slow or they got a bad lie in a fairway.

Like I said, I loved my job, but it was annoying and frustrating to hear people who should have been out enjoying themselves come in complaining while you were working hard to make their time at the club as enjoyable as possible.

[DonH57]

I think the pin placements should be on the ponds because that's where my balls go.

[outlaw]

I think that he loves his job but is a bit frustrated when people complain and don't understand what goes into maintaining a golf course.

I worked in the golf industry for 35 years and although I loved my job, it was irritating to hear people coming in after playing and complaining about little things. I was stuck in the shop for ten to twelve hours and didn't get to play as much as I would have liked and instead of appreciating how fortunate these people were to be out playing golf, they came in whining about the greens were too slow or they got a bad lie in a fairway.

Like I said, I loved my job, but it was annoying and frustrating to hear people who should have been out enjoying themselves come in complaining while you were working hard to make their time at the club as enjoyable as possible.

One person's truthful observation is another person's "complaining". As in your statement regarding being "stuck" in the pro shop for 10 to 12 hours. Many people would feel lucky to be working in the golf industry, being paid to be at a beautiful country club atmosphere all day, meeting new and interesting people, mostly in a good mood because they're at the golf course, not stuck in their cubicle office environment. Successful businesses understand that the customer can make or break them. Ergo "the customer is always right" cliche. You won't find too many successful businesses if the owner thinks customer dissatisfaction is just picky "complaining". Golf swing fundamentals is a combination of very precise movements and synchronization of those movements. The difficulty of doing this well is what attracts many to the game. Take the top player in most country clubs, a person that has that swing and ball striking consistency you wish you had, and you will likely find a person that is still practicing more than most, still working on improving their swing mechanics, etc.; never totally satisfied with their level of performance. The people that approach (not achieve) this perfection, many times expect this level of dedication from everyone else. It's not so much that they are complaining. They are just responding to the employee obligatory greeting "how was your round today". Or maybe they think that the course depends on their input to improve the course conditions, as in "what did the manager say when you told him about your poor service" or "did you call the course superintendent to tell them about the poor pin placements".

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

One person's truthful observation is another person's "complaining". As in your statement regarding being "stuck" in the pro shop for 10 to 12 hours. Many people would feel lucky to be working in the golf industry, being paid to be at a beautiful country club atmosphere all day, meeting new and interesting people, mostly in a good mood because they're at the golf course, not stuck in their cubicle office environment. Successful businesses understand that the customer can make or break them. Ergo "the customer is always right" cliche. You won't find too many successful businesses if the owner thinks customer dissatisfaction is just picky "complaining". Golf swing fundamentals is a combination of very precise movements and synchronization of those movements. The difficulty of doing this well is what attracts many to the game. Take the top player in most country clubs, a person that has that swing and ball striking consistency you wish you had, and you will likely find a person that is still practicing more than most, still working on improving their swing mechanics, etc.; never totally satisfied with their level of performance. The people that approach (not achieve) this perfection, many times expect this level of dedication from everyone else. It's not so much that they are complaining. They are just responding to the employee obligatory greeting "how was your round today". Or maybe they think that the course depends on their input to improve the course conditions, as in "what did the manager say when you told him about your poor service" or "did you call the course superintendent to tell them about the poor pin placements".

Most people get in the golf business because they love the game and they love to play. Unfortunately for most of us we find that we're not able to play very much because we spend so much time helping others enjoy their time at the the club.

You're right, I've heard many people talking about how they'd feel lucky to be able to spend every day at a beautiful country club. Believe me, it's a lot different when you are there to work than when you are there to play.
But I will admit that it was much better then working in an office. My work life varied tremendously every day. I did meet interesting people and it was very rewarding to know that I helped some of those people play better and enjoy the game more. But, it's not a bed of roses and working in an environment where every is on their recreation time and you are working can be very frustrating. This is especially so when people come in from playing golf and whine about minor problems. I often want to say, "Why don't you stay here and unpack, price and put these sweaters out while I go out and play."

I'd ask everyone who came in after playing how their day went and how they played. Most were very happy but there were always those few that felt that they had to complain about everything. Some people are just not happy no matter what. And many of these complainers would complain about the most ridiculous things. But, I'd patiently listened to all of it promising that I'd look into it.

[worcester]

I can play gold on most executive courses. I cannot and will probably never be able to carry the water on Mangrove #4 and Seetgum #8 (depending on tee placement). Most gold tee golfers I play with also cannot. Makes me stay away from these 2 courses

[Polar Bear]

I can play gold on most executive courses. I cannot and will probably never be able to carry the water on Mangrove #4 and Seetgum #8 (depending on tee placement). Most gold tee golfers I play with also cannot. Makes me stay away from these 2 courses

If you generally like the courses, why not just play green tees on those couple of holes.

[kcrazorbackfan]

I can play gold on most executive courses. I cannot and will probably never be able to carry the water on Mangrove #4 and Seetgum #8 (depending on tee placement). Most gold tee golfers I play with also cannot. Makes me stay away from these 2 courses

Take a look at the initiative called "Tee It Forward". There's nothing wrong with "checking your manhood" at the starter shack and enjoying the game again, at all the courses, from the set of tees that is friendly to you. I see way too many guys, and a few women, playing tees too far back. Besides you having more fun, it helps speed the game up.

[outlaw]

Most people get in the golf business because they love the game and they love to play. Unfortunately for most of us we find that we're not able to play very much because we spend so much time helping others enjoy their time at the the club.

You're right, I've heard many people talking about how they'd feel lucky to be able to spend every day at a beautiful country club. Believe me, it's a lot different when you are there to work than when you are there to play.
But I will admit that it was much better then working in an office. My work life varied tremendously every day. I did meet interesting people and it was very rewarding to know that I helped some of those people play better and enjoy the game more. But, it's not a bed of roses and working in an environment where every is on their recreation time and you are working can be very frustrating. This is especially so when people come in from playing golf and whine about minor problems. I often want to say, "Why don't you stay here and unpack, price and put these sweaters out while I go out and play."

I'd ask everyone who came in after playing how their day went and how they played. Most were very happy but there were always those few that felt that they had to complain about everything. Some people are just not happy no matter what. And many of these complainers would complain about the most ridiculous things. But, I'd patiently listened to all of it promising that I'd look into it.

I'm sure you're right about that. Every job has it's mundane, tedious tasks that must be done...it's like the cubicle worker complaining he's cooped up all day inside...until he sees the outside worker toiling in the summer heat or in a downpour. Then the air conditioned, dry cubicle doesn't look so bad.

[fred53]

If all the placements are in the easiest locations, you still wouldn't see everyone score the same.

Well it's golf isn't it? Various skill levels, various abilities, various attitudes...seems rather obvious statement you've made.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

FYI, I used to be a starter/ambassador and the pin placement is supposed to be located so that there is a flat area at least three feet in circumference around the hole. This is not only for fairness to the golfers but to speed up play as well. When I would go out in the mornings to inspect my course and I notice situations with pin placements such as you described, I'd call the course managers and have the maintenance crew come out and relocate the pins. I hope those bad guys, perpetrators, toss and turn all sleepless night long after putting the pins on slopes.

Actually, the USGA recommendation is that there is no change in the degree of slope within three feet of the hole. On some greens it might be impossible to find a perfectly flat spot six feet in diameter.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

If all the placements are in the easiest locations, you still wouldn't see everyone score the same.


True, but studies have shown that better golfers will score closer to their average score as the course gets more difficult. Higher handicap golfers will score much worse than their typical score on a course that's much more difficult than what they usually play.

That's what the SLOPE system is all about. If you made a course as easy as possible the higher handicap players would score much better than their average and the better players would only score a little better than average. As the course gets more difficult, the better player would only score a bit higher and the high handicapper would score much worse.

If you took a scratch player and an 18 handicap and had them play a match at Silver Lake, or Hilltop, for example with the 18 getting a stroke a hole, the higher handicap would have a much better chance of winning the match that if they played at say, TPC Sawgrass, where the 18 handicapper might need two strokes per hole.

Moving all of the holes to the middle of the greens would benefit the higher handicap player more than the better player.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

For anyone that doubts your experience and descriptions of balls rolling off the green, they should view footage of previous US OPENS held at Pinehurst #2. And yes, those tournaments are USGA sanctioned.

Number 7 at Shinnecock is another great example as is 18 at Olympic. I don't think that most people realize how good the tour players are to shoot the scores that they do on the courses they play.

Watch next week at Augusta National. I'm sure that you'll see a few examples of a player getting int he wrong place and have no control over his ball.

Another factor in this discussion has to be the speed of the greens. I've seen courses where the greens had such severe slopes to that the speed of the greens had to be slowed. I haven't played here in The Villages, but I doubt that any of the courses have green speeds of 12 or 13.

[dillywho]

First let me say that I do indeed very much appreciate the dedicated and hard work that the ground crews perform over the night time hours. Considering the over 10 to 12 thousand rounds played each day during the top season, the courses are in marvelous shape and I want to thank each and every one involved.


Once again, thank you to the ground crews. You are unsung heroes. :BigApplause:

:agree::agree:

[dillywho]

I think the pin placements should be on the ponds because that's where my balls go.

Every time I play, the pins are in the wrong places!:smiley::cryin2:

[bagboy]

Number 7 at Shinnecock is another great example as is 18 at Olympic. I don't think that most people realize how good the tour players are to shoot the scores that they do on the courses they play.

Watch next week at Augusta National. I'm sure that you'll see a few examples of a player getting int he wrong place and have no control over his ball.

Another factor in this discussion has to be the speed of the greens. I've seen courses where the greens had such severe slopes to that the speed of the greens had to be slowed. I haven't played here in The Villages, but I doubt that any of the courses have green speeds of 12 or 13.

It's nice to hear an opinion on golf and golf courses from someone who actually has real life experience to draw upon. I am guessing the greens in the Villages are somewhere between 8 to 9. Possibly up to 10 on some courses during the dry summer months, but that is a stretch as the staff probably keeps the grass higher to protect them.

[Gerry P.]

How here I thought it was my poor golf abilities.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

How here I thought it was my poor golf abilities.

That's almost never the case.