Is It Too Late To Get Our Money Back?

[Guest]

Now that President Bush has agreed to give two of the U.S. auto companies about $17 billion, accompanied by some tough conditions, we've begun to understand the implications of the Bush conditions.

The shareholders of the two companies will have their investments essentially eliminated. That's fair--equity should bear the highest risk.

The debt holders of the two companies are going to have to take a huge writeoff of the monies owed them--maybe 50% or more.

Some of the suppliers to the two companies will also have to write off some of their receivables. Some may not make it and will have to be liquidated.

A large number of the dealers of the two companies will have to be closed. They're simply not needed. Many are threatening to sue.

Now the UAW has also spoken. Its president says he's going to ask the new Obama administration to change the requirements that Bush placed on the union. Bush prescribed that their wages and benefits be competitive with the foreign "transplant" auto makers by the end of 2009. The UAW says they've already given enough, that they're being singled out to solve the problem. This when they still have total hourly compensation and benefits that are 30-40% higher than the transplant workers; they get paid 95% of their pay if they're laid off; their health insurance costs them virtually nothing; and they have generous pension plans that don't require contributions from them.

It's pretty obvious that the UAW is willing to drive the U.S. indiustry over a cliff before they give up anything. My reaction is...so be it. Don't take any of our money. Solve the problem yourselves in a bankruptcy court. if you can't or won't, then find another job with another employer. These people--the UAW leadership and members--simply don't get it.They don't realize how little most Americans care about them and their plight. This is the same story as happened with Leyland Motors in the U.K. After $18 billion from the British government, the union workers still wanted raises and favorable work rules. Leyland finally went out of business and was liquidated.

The cost to all of us of the UAW's stupidity and avarice will be great. Some more than others. One of my sons works for Ford and they will almost certainly be sucked into the vortex caused by UAW greed. I wish the end result could be avoided. But it's pretty clear that the UAW is not going to let it happen.

[Guest]

We don't need to bail them out, they need to attempt to reorganize thru the bankruptcy court, that's what it's there for, top managenment and the UAW need to go, they got them to this this point..they need a new team, not the same old people with a big deposit in their bank account....duh

[Guest]

Now that President Bush has agreed to give two of the U.S. auto companies about $17 billion, accompanied by some tough conditions, we've begun to understand the implications of the Bush conditions.

The shareholders of the two companies will have their investments essentially eliminated. That's fair--equity should bear the highest risk.

The debt holders of the two companies are going to have to take a huge writeoff of the monies owed them--maybe 50% or more.

Some of the suppliers to the two companies will also have to write off some of their receivables. Some may not make it and will have to be liquidated.

A large number of the dealers of the two companies will have to be closed. They're simply not needed. Many are threatening to sue.

Now the UAW has also spoken. Its president says he's going to ask the new Obama administration to change the requirements that Bush placed on the union. Bush prescribed that their wages and benefits be competitive with the foreign "transplant" auto makers by the end of 2009. The UAW says they've already given enough, that they're being singled out to solve the problem. This when they still have total hourly compensation and benefits that are 30-40% higher than the transplant workers; they get paid 95% of their pay if they're laid off; their health insurance costs them virtually nothing; and they have generous pension plans that don't require contributions from them.

It's pretty obvious that the UAW is willing to drive the U.S. indiustry over a cliff before they give up anything. My reaction is...so be it. Don't take any of our money. Solve the problem yourselves in a bankruptcy court. if you can't or won't, then find another job with another employer. These people--the UAW leadership and members--simply don't get it.They don't realize how little most Americans care about them and their plight. This is the same story as happened with Leyland Motors in the U.K. After $18 billion from the British government, the union workers still wanted raises and favorable work rules. Leyland finally went out of business and was liquidated.

The cost to all of us of the UAW's stupidity and avarice will be great. Some more than others. One of my sons works for Ford and they will almost certainly be sucked into the vortex caused by UAW greed. I wish the end result could be avoided. But it's pretty clear that the UAW is not going to let it happen.

Perhaps you would share with us, Kahuna, how your son feels about very possibily working for mediocre to low wages, poor benefits and very limited retirement benefits. Will he be job hunting, moving to a smaller home and changing his lifestyle if the auto companies are trimmed to their quicks? It would be nice to have the perspective of someone in the industry who would be effected by returning autoworkers to the level of marginal wages and benefits.

[Guest]

Now that President Bush has agreed to give two of the U.S. auto companies about $17 billion, accompanied by some tough conditions, we've begun to understand the implications of the Bush conditions.

The shareholders of the two companies will have their investments essentially eliminated. That's fair--equity should bear the highest risk.

The debt holders of the two companies are going to have to take a huge writeoff of the monies owed them--maybe 50% or more.

Some of the suppliers to the two companies will also have to write off some of their receivables. Some may not make it and will have to be liquidated.

A large number of the dealers of the two companies will have to be closed. They're simply not needed. Many are threatening to sue.

Now the UAW has also spoken. Its president says he's going to ask the new Obama administration to change the requirements that Bush placed on the union. Bush prescribed that their wages and benefits be competitive with the foreign "transplant" auto makers by the end of 2009. The UAW says they've already given enough, that they're being singled out to solve the problem. This when they still have total hourly compensation and benefits that are 30-40% higher than the transplant workers; they get paid 95% of their pay if they're laid off; their health insurance costs them virtually nothing; and they have generous pension plans that don't require contributions from them.

It's pretty obvious that the UAW is willing to drive the U.S. indiustry over a cliff before they give up anything. My reaction is...so be it. Don't take any of our money. Solve the problem yourselves in a bankruptcy court. if you can't or won't, then find another job with another employer. These people--the UAW leadership and members--simply don't get it.They don't realize how little most Americans care about them and their plight. This is the same story as happened with Leyland Motors in the U.K. After $18 billion from the British government, the union workers still wanted raises and favorable work rules. Leyland finally went out of business and was liquidated.

The cost to all of us of the UAW's stupidity and avarice will be great. Some more than others. One of my sons works for Ford and they will almost certainly be sucked into the vortex caused by UAW greed. I wish the end result could be avoided. But it's pretty clear that the UAW is not going to let it happen.


It is going to be very interesting to see how the President elect handles this situation. He professed a strong union tie and they really gave the money and the votes during the election.

[Guest]

We don't need to bail them out, they need to attempt to reorganize thru the bankruptcy court, that's what it's there for, top managenment and the UAW need to go, they got them to this this point..they need a new team, not the same old people with a big deposit in their bank account....duh


That's for sure GF. It really rattles my cage when the blue collar suffers the slings and arrows of the corporate scavengers. Everyone knows about corporate greed, yet nothing is ever done about it. Get rid of all the big guns is the best solution and keep those employees that are the producers and foundation of the corporations. Has anyone given any thought to the money that could be saved if corporate executives were all terminated and middle management carried the ball to a very lucrative resolve?

Bailout? NEVER Why lay this burden on the tax payers to pay for the bailout because of executive greed??? ....b

[Guest]

That's for sure GF. It really rattles my cage when the blue collar suffers the slings and arrows of the corporate scavengers. Everyone knows about corporate greed, yet nothing is ever done about it. Get rid of all the big guns is the best solution and keep those employees that are the producers and foundation of the corporations. Has anyone given any thought to the money that could be saved if corporate executives were all terminated and middle management carried the ball to a very lucrative resolve?

Bailout? NEVER Why lay this burden on the tax payers to pay for the bailout because of executive greed??? ....b

Do you mean like the fat-bottomed banking industry, Barb? ;)http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28337800?GT1=43001

[Guest]

The bottom line is that no amount of bailout changes the basic fact - the cars aren't selling.

What good is there to keep building a product nobody's buying? At this rate of build-to-inventory we'll need the entire State of New York or Arizona (random choices!) as the Great American Junk Yard.

There is only one fix for the auto industry - some plan to make the cars more attractive financially (since they aren't making it on looks, quality, performance or resale value) to the customer base, coupled with a federal block-purchase of 33% of the existing inventory for whatever purpose these cars can be used. The first moves inventory over a multi-month time frame, and the second infuses capital into the companies now. To sweeten the pot, all future labor (executive, management & floor) pay increases become tied to the company profits, with a quarter going to raises and the remainder to dividends to the stockholders.

When either executive/management or labor gets greedy, it's like a snake eating itself from the tail end - eventually the snake dies from self-consumption.

[Guest]

Do you mean like the fat-bottomed banking industry, Barb? ;)http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28337800?GT1=43001


Our congress, in their infinite wisdom, decided not to be so strict with the money they threw at them and thus the restrictions were not put in to stop this kind of thing.

[Guest]

Our congress, in their infinite wisdom, decided not to be so strict with the money they threw at them and thus the restrictions were not put in to stop this kind of thing.

This is a lame-duck congress with no conscience and those returning (over 90% of them) for the next session are banking on the precept that Americans have lousy memories. They believe that what they do now will be forgotten in 2010 out of our collective dumbness fed by a locally distributed diet of "pork."

Will we remember in 2010 or will Congressional "pork" continue to be that tasty?

[Guest]

The department my son runs for Ford did the analysis that concluded that if either GM or Chrysler went under, the suppliers that they'd suck down with them would cause Ford to shut down as well. Ford has husbanded it's money pretty wisely and could survive market conditions as now exist for another year or so without any government help. They have a lineup of attractive, fuel efficient and hybrid vehicles ready to hit the market in late 2009 and 2010, a better lineup of product than any of their competitors they believe.

But are my wife and I worried about our son and grandsons? Certainly. If any of the auto companies fail our son would certainly be out of work. Could he get another job? With his experience, performance and advanced degrees, almost certainly. Would it take awhile? Probably. Would he have to move from suburban Detroit? Almost certainly. Would the experience have an effect on our very smart grandsons, all of whom are attending private schools? Certainly. Can my wife and I help? No. Would it be a very tough couple of years for a young family. Absolutely.

So as much as I hate to say it, the chances are that the UAW in particular will cause the U.S. auto companies to cease to exist. Will that event cost all of us a lot of money and prolong and deepen an already serious worldwide recession? I believe that it will. But as much as it will hurt me and my family, I still don't think it's the role of our government to continue to fund companies or an industry, however important it might be, if the stakeholders in the industry don't take the necessary steps to make themselves competitive--even at great personal sacrifice.

[Guest]

This is a lame-duck congress with no conscience and those returning (over 90% of them) for the next session are banking on the precept that Americans have lousy memories. They believe that what they do now will be forgotten in 2010 out of our collective dumbness fed by a locally distributed diet of "pork."

Will we remember in 2010 or will Congressional "pork" continue to be that tasty?

I dont think it is nor will be the "pork" but simply voter apathy. We all get excited about this and get out and vote for a Presidential election or scream about our reps during a "situation" but when those elections come around the voter turnout will be light and those who vote will vote for the incumbents !

[Guest]

I dont think it is nor will be the "pork" but simply voter apathy. We all get excited about this and get out and vote for a Presidential election or scream about our reps during a "situation" but when those elections come around the voter turnout will be light and those who vote will vote for the incumbents !
If only you were wrong - but you are not...

At least let's see what we can do about it here next time.

[Guest]

why I don't know because they are in more than just the south and their suppliers are from all over the US and the planet.
I don't hear much from those who work in those plants about mediocre wages.
They all had it explained what kind of work environment they were going to get into...both the white and the blue collar. They bought into it!!! They make better cars for less with better quality because they are allowed to do more than the UAW allows it's workers to do at a significantly higher rate. The UAW will in fact let the company go down in flames before they concede. If the rank and file are stupid enough to allow it to happen, AGAIN, then so be it. Then they will have $0 per hour....good thinking. Why did I say again? In other threads related to the subject I pointed out my experience with GE Appliances in Louisville, KY. 1965 less than 10,000 employment....mid to late 70's more than 25,000 employment....late 80's and early 90's down to 15,000...2008/today less than 5,000.
The union absolutely held the line on wages and benefits in the face of higher than the competitions cost and man hours to build a unit.
We used to brag the appliance business was one of the few remaining products still manufactured in the USA....the union took the business to it's knees with the result being businesses were sold to foreign manufacturers...component manufacturing was all taken off shore to reduce costs.....
all of which is currently happening in the auto industry....you do know the made in America cars are less than 70% American components? They are on the slide going toward a locked door. The only remaining benefactors are the union officials. They still have their jobs and benefits.
My vote as expressed many times before...chapter 11....reorganize...throw out the management and the unions. Give the workers red, white and blue collars 1/2 the loaf they used to get....it feeds many more than no loaf at all!!!!

BTK

[Guest]

I'd much perfer to keep a 25 dollar an hour job then lose a 50 dollar an hour job.

[Guest]

I've been reading a little bit about the bailout in the online editions of the Detroit newspapers. I've read that the president of the UAW definitely wants the deadline for the union wages and benefits becoming "competitive with the foreign transplants" to be into 2010, rather than anytime in 2009. I don't quite understand the UAW organization, but the observation was made in one of the papers that if the deadline was in 2009, which is the current condition proposed by President Bush, the union president would have to take whatever structure is decided upon to the membership for a vote. If the changed conditions became effective in 2010, he apparently does not have to get membership ratification. (Don't ask me why, I don't quite understand the UAW's internal rules.)

The implication in one article I read was that the UAW president definitely does not want to permit the membership to become involved because he feels they will be more willing to "cave", accepting much deeper cuts in pay and benefits in order to keep their jobs than the president thinks is acceptable. The UAW leadership is apparently more willing to play chicken with the government, continuing to demand their higher pay and benefits at the expense of either other stakeholders in the companies or by getting additional funding from the Treasury Department. They apparently continue to feel that the massive campaign contributions made to the Democrats and the union help in winning Ohio and Michigan in the last election has created an IOU from the incoming Congress and administration.

At this point, whether or not to change the conditions attached to the bailout bridge loan is totally within the authority of President Obama. But several of the Democratic Congressional leaders--the lovable Congresspersons Pelosi and Frank and Senator Dodd, are already making noises that new legislation should be prepared for consideration by the new Congress that would provide for more money and a longer bailout period with less reliance on "giveups" by the UAW. They're quite certain they could get such legislation passed by the new Congress.

If there was ever a time that I actually wanted the GOP to filibuster legislation, it would be on this issue. But if the new legislation being talked about happens, I give up!

[Guest]

Perhaps you would share with us, Kahuna, how your son feels about very possibily working for mediocre to low wages, poor benefits and very limited retirement benefits. Will he be job hunting, moving to a smaller home and changing his lifestyle if the auto companies are trimmed to their quicks? It would be nice to have the perspective of someone in the industry who would be effected by returning autoworkers to the level of marginal wages and benefits.
I think Kahuna's point is that the taxpayers should not be required to subsidize this industry. If they can pay their workers 500 dollars an hour and run a profitable company... great. It doesn't look like "business as usual" will work much longer. The taxpayers will surely revolt if asked to cough up much more.

[Guest]

I think Kahuna's point is that the taxpayers should not be required to subsidize this industry. If they can pay their workers 500 dollars an hour and run a profitable company... great. It doesn't look like "business as usual" will work much longer. The taxpayers will surely revolt if asked to cough up much more.

I understand, Rshoffer, and I'm thinking we should not subsidize the bailout or the bankruptcy of automakers. CNBC did a piece today that Toyota is taking a big hit in this economy and they are now concerned also. I'm trying to glean perspective as to how this will effect the autoworkers if wages and benefits are cut, (Kahuna has indicated his son works for Ford).

I sense from Kahuna's post that his son feels Ford needs to make these cuts and I am wondering how his son and other workers plan to deal with these cuts. Will they leave their jobs, will they stay, will they need to change homes, schools for their children, medical care, etc. or is there such a huge cushion in their wages that these changes will only cut out the European vacations, exclusive Ivy League schools, Country Clubs and so forth? I have never met a wealthy autoworker but that doesn't mean they're not out there. I'm finding myself very adverse to bailouts, particularly of the investment/banking industry but then I also realize that if we are quickly becoming the very rich and the lower class, there will be problems in the streets.

On the other hand, we may all have to deal with deflation worldwide and that is another realm of havoc. I am trying to watch less of CNBC. :sad:

[Guest]

...

If there was ever a time that I actually wanted the GOP to filibuster legislation, it would be on this issue. But if the new legislation being talked about happens, I give up!
Then let's make sure we truly remember this debacle when the polls open in November 2010. Out with everyone who votes YEA for the Great bailout of 2008/9.

[Guest]

Peach, don't have the wrong impression of those who work for the auto industry, particularly those in middle management. No, there aren't any European vacations and Ivy League schools.

If I had to describe my son's situation it would be "highly stressful" with 12-hour days and six-day weeks. The population of his department has been cut several times in the last 18 months and is now down about 40% from where it was. But the work, the reports, etc. continue to be the same. Everyone just has to work harder and worry about the next cutback. There have been no raises or bonuses for two years now. For a couple of years they got stock options, but the option price is so far above the current market that they're worthless.

The kids aren't in fancy, private schools, but they are in parochial schools (that aren't cheap these days). My son lives in a nice suburb where the homes sold in the $400,000 range 3-4 years ago. He mows his own lawn, shovels the snow, is the leader of a Cub Scout pack and ran the Pinewood Derby (model races for the Scouts) for the whole metropolitan area. Most of his neighbors work in the auto industry in middle management or professional jobs (engineers, designers, sales, etc.). From his front door he now looks at six homes that have been foreclosed on. Just to keep the neighborhood looking nice, the neighbors have begun mowing the lawns that the banks now owning the houses refuse to maintain. My son says that based on the few recent sales in his subdivision, he'd take a $150,000 loss from what he paid for his house, not including the improvements he's made. Business with the local newspapers is so bad that they've stopped daily delivery, dropping papers at houses only 3 days a week now. About a third of the kids in the local Catholic school have dropped out during this school year as one or both of their parents were laid off.

I can't imagine that the situation with the UAW hourly factory workers is as bad as it is for the middle managers and professional employees. Their average hourly rate is just a little shy of $30 an hour (a little more than $60,000 a year without any overtime, with many older workers earning much more than that), with health insurance almost completely paid for and a generous non-contributory pension plan that permits retirement with full benefits after 25 years of employment. There are a lot of people in their late 40's in Detroit that are enjoying the good life with a full pension and no-cost health insurance, having gone to work in an auto plant right out of high school in their late teens, retiring after 25 years, and then finding another job to supplant their pension payments, often to a six-figure level. The UAW workers don't fear layoffs or temporary plant shutdowns as the UAW contract provides that they be paid 95% of their hourly pay, even if they are laid off and stay at home with the kids, or until they are recalled to fill a job very closely defined as the one they were laid off from. As I understand it, that benefit applies with no time limit unless or until the factory where they worked is permanently closed and shut down. That is the "job bank" benefit that the UAW says it will agree to give up. But their "give-up" only applies to new, yet-to-be hired employees, not any union member currently on the payroll. The same is true of the new, somewhat lower wage scale that they've agreed to--it only applies to yet-to-be hired workers. But the UAW leadership wails, "Look what we've given up."

So, Peach, if you are left with any impression of "living large" by people employed in the auto industry--the middle management types anyway--remember this story when your hear the spin from the president of the UAW saying, "...we're being taken advantage of...we've already given enough...President Bush placed too much of the responsibility of the auto re-structuring on our members." Do you think this is "reality" in today's work-a-day world? The UAW thinks so. And they think all those taxpayers out here that are working for little more than the minimum wage, getting paid only when work is available, with no heath insurance and no pension plan ought to have some of their tax dollars used to maintain the UAW lifestyle.

[Guest]

IMHO (please remember this is just my opinion) the American people could go a long way towards helping the American car companies (and at the same time help themselves and quite possible their relatives) by buying an American car. I purchased foreign cars many years ago (about 20 -25 years ago) when our cars couldn't match up with foreign cars from a quality stand point. In the last 20 years I have bought American exclusively because I felt the quality was as good or better than the foreign cars and I wanted to support our country/workers. We are currently on our 6th Chrysler minivan (and will buy another one when needed) and also own a PT Cruiser and a Chevrolet Camaro.. OK you all are now free to pile on....GN

[Guest]

Peach, don't have the wrong impression of those who work for the auto industry, particularly those in middle management. No, there aren't any European vacations and Ivy League schools.

If I had to describe my son's situation it would be "highly stressful" with 12-hour days and six-day weeks. The population of his department has been cut several times in the last 18 months and is now down about 40% from where it was. But the work, the reports, etc. continue to be the same. Everyone just has to work harder and worry about the next cutback. There have been no raises or bonuses for two years now. For a couple of years they got stock options, but the option price is so far above the current market that they're worthless.

The kids aren't in fancy, private schools, but they are in parochial schools (that aren't cheap these days). My son lives in a nice suburb where the homes sold in the $400,000 range 3-4 years ago. He mows his own lawn, shovels the snow, is the leader of a Cub Scout pack and ran the Pinewood Derby (model races for the Scouts) for the whole metropolitan area. Most of his neighbors work in the auto industry in middle management or professional jobs (engineers, designers, sales, etc.). From his front door he now looks at six homes that have been foreclosed on. Just to keep the neighborhood looking nice, the neighbors have begun mowing the lawns that the banks now owning the houses refuse to maintain. My son says that based on the few recent sales in his subdivision, he'd take a $150,000 loss from what he paid for his house, not including the improvements he's made. Business with the local newspapers is so bad that they've stopped daily delivery, dropping papers at houses only 3 days a week now. About a third of the kids in the local Catholic school have dropped out during this school year as one or both of their parents were laid off.

I can't imagine that the situation with the UAW hourly factory workers is as bad as it is for the middle managers and professional employees. Their average hourly rate is just a little shy of $30 an hour (a little more than $60,000 a year without any overtime, with many older workers earning much more than that), with health insurance almost completely paid for and a generous non-contributory pension plan that permits retirement with full benefits after 25 years of employment. There are a lot of people in their late 40's in Detroit that are enjoying the good life with a full pension and no-cost health insurance, having gone to work in an auto plant right out of high school in their late teens, retiring after 25 years, and then finding another job to supplant their pension payments, often to a six-figure level. The UAW workers don't fear layoffs or temporary plant shutdowns as the UAW contract provides that they be paid 95% of their hourly pay, even if they are laid off and stay at home with the kids, or until they are recalled to fill a job very closely defined as the one they were laid off from. As I understand it, that benefit applies with no time limit unless or until the factory where they worked is permanently closed and shut down. That is the "job bank" benefit that the UAW says it will agree to give up. But their "give-up" only applies to new, yet-to-be hired employees, not any union member currently on the payroll. The same is true of the new, somewhat lower wage scale that they've agreed to--it only applies to yet-to-be hired workers. But the UAW leadership wails, "Look what we've given up."

So, Peach, if you are left with any impression of "living large" by people employed in the auto industry--the middle management types anyway--remember this story when your hear the spin from the president of the UAW saying, "...we're being taken advantage of...we've already given enough...President Bush placed too much of the responsibility of the auto re-structuring on our members." Do you think this is "reality" in today's work-a-day world? The UAW thinks so. And they think all those taxpayers out here that are working for little more than the minimum wage, getting paid only when work is available, with no heath insurance and no pension plan ought to have some of their tax dollars used to maintain the UAW lifestyle.

Thank you, Kahuna, for your thoughtful insight of what is occurring in your son's life at this point. It must be extremely stressful for him and his family and I hope there is a resolution to this mess. I misunderstood and thought your son worked the line and didn't realize he was a middle management employee.

After the description you have provided regarding the difficult working conditions, I am more convinced a bailout or government backed bankruptcy probably would not work. The husband, in a couple I know, has worked the line for one of the big three for about 10 years and provides the health insurance. His wife was laid off, found a part time job, they have downsized their house and their three children were removed from parochial, (Catholic), school and placed in the public school system to help make ends meet since her job loss. They don't take fancy vacations, live in bars or live life largely. How much financial loss will they be able to absorb at this point?

And today, Toyota announces they have lost money. It appears deflation is the only correction that is going to happen and that will hit all of us, as you well know. I don't think we'll see the American auto industry in a few years.

I hope your son is able to maintain employment and his sanity, it's difficult to watch our children struggle so much, no matter how old they are.

[Guest]

IMHO (please remember this is just my opinion) the American people could go a long way towards helping the American car companies (and at the same time help themselves and quite possible their relatives) by buying an American car. I purchased foreign cars many years ago (about 20 -25 years ago) when our cars couldn't match up with foreign cars from a quality stand point. In the last 20 years I have bought American exclusively because I felt the quality was as good or better than the foreign cars and I wanted to support our country/workers. We are currently on our 6th Chrysler minivan (and will buy another one when needed) and also own a PT Cruiser and a Chevrolet Camaro.. OK you all are now free to pile on....GN

No piling on needed on your post. While I think that you are noble in wanting to support American auto industry, the purchase of American made cars is what allowed the auto industry to keep manufacturing the same old inferior products. While overall the American auto has improved in quality, this improvement has been reluctant on the manufacturers part because of the "Buy American" purchasers giving them a pass on quality for so many years. Should we all shift to buying Ford, Chrysler, GM from now on, the auto makers will find no need to improve their product.

Competition buy foreign manufacturers is what will give us the best selection of autos at the best price. When Ford, Chrysler, and GM start showing all those green dots in the "Consumer Reports Car Buying Guide" I'll consider their products. My next auto will be one of the leaders, Honda or Toyota.

[Guest]

Lee Iacocca was supporting free trade when he said, "If you can find a better car, buy it".

[Guest]

when unemployment was what we have today..."if you have no job and are hungry go eat your import..."

BTK

[Guest]

Thanks Kahuna, for the perspective that the UAW, Industry Management and the Biased Media will never reveal!

One big question comes to mind: Why is the govenrment taking from our pockets to try to save this, or any other, industry? I cannot see where this is going, beyond giving every troubled business out there reason to ask for the same.

It just isn't right to tag us with righting the ship they (UAW & Management) put in harms way!

[Guest]

My latest car purchase is a Ford product - a Volvo C30.
Before that, another Ford product - a Land Rover Freelander.

It's amazing that the British and European "Ford" products are doing well, and the domestic is having such a hard time. Perhaps there's a lesson there.

I'm somewhat of a "petrol-head" in that I love cars - and motorcycles - and never miss a car show. I enjoy seeing all the new models and test-driving every one I can. As with most consumers, I like getting my money's worth.

Eventually, the domestic manufacturing is either going to get better, or go the way of the Yugo, the Renault Dauphine, and most Fiats.

As with any competitive product, you can either give the consumer what they want, or you can go the way of the Hudson and the Nash Metropolitan. Manufacturing products that are not marketable is utterly stupid and arrogant, and yet we encourage the Big-3 to do just that.

If Hewlett-Packard kept making 386 and 486 computers, would we bail them out as well?

[Guest]

Two points:

1) I second SteveZ 's comment about folks buying cars. Any workout plan must be predicated on the assumption that people will be buying cars. They're not. I work in Baltimore Harbor frequently and the car lots where autos are stored after offloading from the incoming car carriers are chock-a-block full. They are putting cars in every spare lot available. This means they are NOT moving them to dealers, which means.....and so on. Until the consumer is more confident and has credit to buy at his disposal the car biz will remain on the skids, or worse.

2) The UAW (itself) needs the car companies more than the car companies need them. Their intransigence in this matter is puzzling.

In any event, we are in the midst of a massive sea change in our economy. 5 years from now it will not look like what we knew 10 years ago. There is going to plenty of pain to go around and a lot of casualties.

[Guest]

Even if everyone started buying only gm cars, the problem remains they lose money on every car they sell. Fox and friends had a segment on this morning.... A contractual arrangement with uaw retirees resulted in "christmas bonus" payments up to 700 dollars! So, john q taxpayer is funding the bailout and some retirees are allegedly getting a "christmas bonus"... Note, these are not current active employees.... Talk about "legacy costs". Anyone else heard about this?