GOLFERS..what about the new 8 dollar charge?

[golferling]

Is there anyone out there that is angry about the "new charge" for all of us that use our computers to make a teetime? Do you know there will be an additional 8 dollar charge to do so. I think if there is enough STINK about it from users, maybe the VIllages will quit trying to "tap us out."
Can you imagine how much extra money this brings in to do this? Someone is getting richer, and it is not we that use the teetimes and are going to be charged for it.

[Best Mom]

Yes, everyone I know- No one is happy about it.
But like the Buffalo, not much the residents can do about it.
But I warn you, this site has people that will always defend the developer.

[redwitch]

From my understanding, it is ComCast this time, not the developer. TV had a contract with Comcast to try using the system online with Comcast. TV paid the fee. I've heard variouis rumors from Comcast inisted on a very hefty new contract to the original agreement stated that once the first year was up, it would be up to subscribers. I don't which is true. Either way, the contract with Comcast is up and the developer did not renew it, so the cost is now on the consumer. I'd suggest people write both the devleoper and Comcast about this. Those who are Comcast subscribers might be able to get the fee removed. Can't hurt to try.

[Best Mom]

Thanks Red. First I had heard that.

[Bogie Shooter]

Yes, everyone I know- No one is happy about it.
But like the Buffalo, not much the residents can do about it.
But I warn you, this site has people that will always defend the developer.

Are you a resident?

[Mallory]

If you don't like the $8 fee, access the system for free with your phone.

[Freeda]

Is that $8 per month?

[ijusluvit]

Yes, that's $8 per month, beginning next summer. If you do some math with the number of Comcast customers there are in TV, some of us think this is an outrageous amount, way more than the actual cost to The Villages to provide the tee time service as part of Villages.net. After all, The Villages already has huge computer capability, servers, personnel, etc. The tee time software was purchased a few years ago because it was far more efficient than using the phone. It may cost a little more to run that program now that there are more residents, but does that warrant an increase from an annual fee of zero to $100!

One of our members is researching this matter and I for one can't wait to read what she discovers.

[aln]

When I lived up north, there was no telephne or computer system.
Just call the course and make a ressie a week in advance.

Of course as technology became available a telephone system and computer system started up.

It wasn't free - they charged a yearly charge for access TO BOTH,

I think $96 a year is a little excessive but the telephone IS FREE.

Again, carefull what you ask for !

[zcaveman]

From my understanding, it is ComCast this time, not the developer. TV had a contract with Comcast to try using the system online with Comcast. TV paid the fee. I've heard variouis rumors from Comcast inisted on a very hefty new contract to the original agreement stated that once the first year was up, it would be up to subscribers. I don't which is true. Either way, the contract with Comcast is up and the developer did not renew it, so the cost is now on the consumer. I'd suggest people write both the devleoper and Comcast about this. Those who are Comcast subscribers might be able to get the fee removed. Can't hurt to try.

That is not correct. The Villages was trying to create their own cable company. They had originally picked Clearlink. Clearlink became the cable provider in Marion county and had costumers in Sumter county. I am not sure what happened but the Villages gave up on Clearlink and went to Comcast. The Clearlink customers had free Villages.net. When Comcast took over, they made a contract with the Villages.net to provide free access for all broadband customers to the villages.net until June, 2009. Personally i am not sure why they extended it to all Villagers as only the ones that had to be moved from Clearlink had the free access . But, that was a business decision.

So, in June, 2009, we will all have to pay the $8 a month for the online Tee Time system. For us that really use it, it is and expense bit it is not that bad. Personally I do not want to pay it but I will because I use the system and the few times I have had to use the telephone system, I never got what I wanted.

My only question is why did the Villages.net decide to stop the annual charge and go to a monthly charge?

[meriboo]

are you saying that ALL comcast customers will be charged $8/month or is it a charge to only those that use it to schedule tee times?

[redwitch]

Only those who use the golf sign-in.

[rshoffer]

Yes, that's $8 per month, beginning next summer. If you do some math with the number of Comcast customers there are in TV, some of us think this is an outrageous amount, way more than the actual cost to The Villages to provide the tee time service as part of Villages.net. After all, The Villages already has huge computer capability, servers, personnel, etc. The tee time software was purchased a few years ago because it was far more efficient than using the phone. It may cost a little more to run that program now that there are more residents, but does that warrant an increase from an annual fee of zero to $100!

One of our members is researching this matter and I for one can't wait to read what she discovers.I have been disappointed w/ Comcast TV, phone and internet... we all should threaten to drop comcast. That'd:boxing2: get their attention

[villages07]

RS,

I agree....that is one way to get some attention to this. Getting tee time system for 'free' is one factor for me in retaining Comcast (the company you love to hate). Once it is no longer free, I'll be more inclined to switch to DirectTV and DSL. I plan to alert Comcast to this upcoming choice long before the June deadline.

I stopped in at the Villages.Net office on Thursday and spoke with the receptionist....she didn't provide a lot of information...basically saying that the Villages (meaning the developer and his various companies) owns villages.net and the tee time system and sets the fees as they see fit (read a level at which people will pay). It is totally separate from the amenities we all pay for. She did not know how many comcast subscribers will be hit by the new fee nor was she privy to the overall operating budget for villages.net/tee time system.

I plan to also speak with local comcast, amenity authority committee and a few others to try to get some more info on this.

My basic gripe is that $8/month = approx $2M/year for 20,000 households....that seems like a lot of profit for the services provided. $4/month I could see..... $8 seems way too high.

The research continues....

[Bogie Shooter]

RS,

I agree....that is one way to get some attention to this. Getting tee time system for 'free' is one factor for me in retaining Comcast (the company you love to hate). Once it is no longer free, I'll be more inclined to switch to DirectTV and DSL. I plan to alert Comcast to this upcoming choice long before the June deadline.

I stopped in at the Villages.Net office on Thursday and spoke with the receptionist....she didn't provide a lot of information...basically saying that the Villages (meaning the developer and his various companies) owns villages.net and the tee time system and sets the fees as they see fit (read a level at which people will pay). It is totally separate from the amenities we all pay for. She did not know how many comcast subscribers will be hit by the new fee nor was she privy to the overall operating budget for villages.net/tee time system.

I plan to also speak with local comcast, amenity authority committee and a few others to try to get some more info on this.

My basic gripe is that $8/month = approx $2M/year for 20,000 households....that seems like a lot of profit for the services provided. $4/month I could see..... $8 seems way too high.

The research continues....

You may have to go higher in the food chain than a receptionist to get answers to questions like that.

[Mallory]

Just wondering how the figure of 20,000 households that are on the villages.net computerized tee time systems is calculated or verified?

[villages07]

Mallory.... that was just an estimate... may be way high, may be way low; there are almost 40,000 households in TV, so, just used half that for estimating purposes. Once all the Comcast people have to start paying for tee time system, the number of paid subscribers may drop.

Bogie... agreed, but, it was a face and a starting point. Given the intricate and somewhat secretive nature of villages-operated businesses, it may be a real challenge to actually find someone with answers who is willing to share.

As an aside, I started a list of all the businesses directly or indirectly owned or supported by the Villages developer....it fills up 2 columns on a piece of steno paper. A few examples.... libation stations at the Squares, golf cart store, katie belles, Daily Sun/VNN/WVLG, movie theatres, fitness centers, polo field, charter schools, bowling alley, championship golf, etc. Again, these are just a few. I am pro-Developer...I think they created a great concept here, do everything first class, and the risk they took earned them their rewards. But, it is a far and wide operation.... well beyond just selling new houses. Even after buildout, whatever and whenever that is, the Developer will continue to have a huge presence in this community.

[Mallory]

07 - Thanks. I'm sure it's a hard number to calculate. Most I know use it, but surprisingly some golfers don't even know the computerized system exists.

[aln]

____07

A good starting point for info would be the T-Time office on Wedgewood LN

[rekop]

Mallory.... that was just an estimate... may be way high, may be way low; there are almost 40,000 households in TV, so, just used half that for estimating purposes. Once all the Comcast people have to start paying for tee time system, the number of paid subscribers may drop.

Bogie... agreed, but, it was a face and a starting point. Given the intricate and somewhat secretive nature of villages-operated businesses, it may be a real challenge to actually find someone with answers who is willing to share.

As an aside, I started a list of all the businesses directly or indirectly owned or supported by the Villages developer....it fills up 2 columns on a piece of steno paper. A few examples.... libation stations at the Squares, golf cart store, katie belles, Daily Sun/VNN/WVLG, movie theatres, fitness centers, polo field, charter schools, bowling alley, championship golf, etc. Again, these are just a few. I am pro-Developer...I think they created a great concept here, do everything first class, and the risk they took earned them their rewards. But, it is a far and wide operation.... well beyond just selling new houses. Even after buildout, whatever and whenever that is, the Developer will continue to have a huge presence in this community.

I have nothing against the Developer either; but, as you said, they have their hand in a lot of side businesses designed to pick up extra $$$$. You can add the furniture stores to the mix as well. When you add in this extra golf fee, its pretty obvious there's a bonus in there for them moneywise. I can see making some profit, but after awhile, it seems like its going overboard.

It isn't like our golf is cheap. If you're a single and play 3 times a week on the championship courses and have a priority membership the annual total comes to almost $5000 per year, or $9000-10,000 per couple. And that figure is based on the latest winter, fall and summer (golf in the morning) rates.

[retiredguy]

This is ridiculous. I have never paid a fee to my cable company or anybody else to do online T-times.

Yes, you can use the phone; however, if the convenience of using online is available, why the charge? I'm guessing Comcast and TV will be pointing fingers at each other.
What does that tell you !!

[Russ_Boston]

If you're a single and play 3 times a week on the championship courses and have a priority membership the annual total comes to almost $5000 per year

I think that sounds about right - I'm used to the $100 per week but up here it is only for 5 months. Holy crap I better start saving my pennies!

[tonycirocco]

The real problem is lack of competition.

Comcast being the only cable company in TV, can charge whatever they want.

We use Dish network...I think they have merged with the other satellite provider and will follow in Comcast's footsteps one of these days.

:shrug:

Tony C

[smalldog]

Small Dog Sez

just another fee added onto my free golf :ohdear: ..... wait, wait whose hand is that in my pocket again ........:cus:

[Midge538]

Maybe it would be appropriate to email Roger Kass who is President of our 'Village's Homeowners Assn.' The VHA might/should be able to provide a more detailed analysis and opinion re: this issue.

[Russ_Boston]

The $8 charge is not from Comcast. Dish/Direct vs. Comcast vs. Fios etc. is a separate issue. The $8 is called 'member services' from villages.net. You can access this from any internet connection once you are a member.

At least that is what I can gather from looking at the villages.net website.

[JTW]

I'd just like to thank you for pursuing this issue of the $8 added charge for the golf tee times in July of 09. It seems to me that everyone figures that there is no use in complaining to the folks in charge (I for one have written to support@thevillages.net which is an address that I was directed to) to voice my dissatisfaction with this additional charge, but I wish there was something more we ALL could do to insure that our voices and concerns are heard. I admire your resolve to contact those who make these decisions and let your opinion be counted. If you do find an email address or contact person that we can reach, please put that information on Talk of the Villages and maybe people like yourself will follow your lead and try to make a difference.

[texasfal]

I haven't had Comcast for about 2 years and I've been paying $6.00 per month so it's actually a $2.00 a month increase, and the $$ goes to TV.

[rekop]

I think it would be very tedious to use the phone system, when searching for tee times, or trying to fit in a group at certain times, as compared to using the internet where you can see at a glance what times are available. At home, where we paid much less for unlimited golf on a nicer course, we of course would just call the pro to get a tee time.

[Bogie Shooter]

I think that sounds about right - I'm used to the $100 per week but up here it is only for 5 months. Holy crap I better start saving my pennies!

Using the same logic, playing twice a week is $3400. Doesn't it depend on your personal choice of how many times a week you want to play and pay. One could be living in Orlando and paying $75 to $100 per round.Even comparable courses in our area are priced the same as TV.

[Bogie Shooter]

I think it would be very tedious to use the phone system, when searching for tee times, or trying to fit in a group at certain times, as compared to using the internet where you can see at a glance what times are available. At home, where we paid much less for unlimited golf on a nicer course, we of course would just call the pro to get a tee time.

The key word here is course. You had one course to choose from and maybe it was nicer, here you have 9. You said you played much less, for golf?, membership fee? monthly restaurant?, etc. Its like comparing apples to oranges.

[Russ_Boston]

Bogie - I think Rekop is from northern NY - It is apples and oranges trying to compare prices from there. I have a couple of friends from the Buffalo area and their cost of living is so low that I considered moving there many years ago. For example - the cost to park an RV at the Buffalo Bills game was $20. That same RV costs us $120 at Gillette stadium in Mass. A nice motel room cost me $35. His house was valued at $180K and it was better than mine valued at $450K (at the time). etc.

Don't get me wrong - it's a beautiful area to live but you can't use it as a comparison for prices.

There have been numerous 'arguments' on this site from those that live in relativly inexpensive areas of the country and then move to TV. For them it may seem expensive but for many others TV is relatively inexpensive.

[rekop]

I am not trying to compare the cost of golf in Florida vs other places. My point was only that for the amount of money a couple will pay, $10,000, and that is not even unlimited golf, that it seems like overkill to have to pay to conveniently make your reservations.

[Russ_Boston]

I think that is a valid point.

[golfnut]

Rekop said "it seems like overkill to have to pay to conveniently make your reservations."

I don't understand what some hypothetical annual cost of playing Championship courses has to do with paying $8 a month to access the on-line tee time system........GN

[tankdvr1950]

First...and i dislike immensely having to say this first...but since one poster actually asked if another poster was a resident or not....(as far as i know u don't have to be a resident to join this wonderful group at TOTV...nor do u have to be a resident to offer timely comments on various issues)....i am a wannabe....a dedicated one and a great follower of everything TV that appears on TOTV....without question, i get more real life info here than anywhere else and i have no doubt that all that info will be extremely helpful when we finally become TV'ers, this year.

That said, i am very aware of the T time system...both phone and on-line....i have seen comments on both...both positive and negative....my sense is that i will, upon our arrival, give the phone a try and if it does not meet my needs, head to the on-line system with its associated costs.

I guess i may be naive but i do not understand the furor about an $8 increase for on-line T time access. I understand that it is or appears to be a large increase....$96 additional per year is.....still $96 per year out of the household budget. But are some even more naive than I, to not realize that EVERYTHING...is going up. Remember a few months ago when food prices rose because of "increased transportation/fuel costs"...not that fuel has come down...has anyone seen a reduction in food prices???? Crude oil prices rose to above $45/barrel recently....now understand thats for future purchases of oil....but before the oil was even taken out of the gound...gas prices rose. How many of you have received notices from your credit card companies that your interest rates are going up and this from companies who have received part of the $350 b of our money used to bail them out.

Is someone making money from this increase...of course.....who is making it.....who knows for sure....Comcast, the villages.net...the developer...who knows for sure..but surely someone is.....is it pure greed?...is it trying to make up losses due to the economic situation? I have no idea. It is, lets be honest....the American way....its called profit motive.....its why people (including the developer) got into business in the first place.

I don't like the idea that Comcast is the only high speed internet provider available...but here in NY....i only have a choice of Time Warner Cable...or Verizon DLS which is far less desirable. I can't count the number of cable price increases i have seen in the last two years.

My trash hauler increased their charges due to increased fuel prices...but now that fuel costs are down.....i called and ask if the fuel surcharge was being reduced...the answer was no. I switched haulers to one that has no fuel surcharge.

This is already too long and i apologize..call it venting if you will....but i just don't understand the uproar over this charge. Justified or not....my opinion is....let the user pay the cost for the convenience...that way it effects only those that CHOOSE to use the service. If the cost is too high for some...if some object to the rate of increase or to whom it may be benefiting, either bite the bullet ...pay the increase for the convenience or...and yes there is an alternative....use the phone system....or organize a letter writing campaign to ask for a change.

Thank u TOTV...for being there...for residents and soon to be residents alike.

[graciegirl]

First...and i dislike immensely having to say this first...but since one poster actually asked if another poster was a resident or not....(as far as i know u don't have to be a resident to join this wonderful group at TOTV...nor do u have to be a resident to offer timely comments on various issues)....i am a wannabe....a dedicated one and a great follower of everything TV that appears on TOTV....without question, i get more real life info here than anywhere else and i have no doubt that all that info will be extremely helpful when we finally become TV'ers, this year.

That said, i am very aware of the T time system...both phone and on-line....i have seen comments on both...both positive and negative....my sense is that i will, upon our arrival, give the phone a try and if it does not meet my needs, head to the on-line system with its associated costs.

I guess i may be naive but i do not understand the furor about an $8 increase for on-line T time access. I understand that it is or appears to be a large increase....$96 additional per year is.....still $96 per year out of the household budget. But are some even more naive than I, to not realize that EVERYTHING...is going up. Remember a few months ago when food prices rose because of "increased transportation/fuel costs"...not that fuel has come down...has anyone seen a reduction in food prices???? Crude oil prices rose to above $45/barrel recently....now understand thats for future purchases of oil....but before the oil was even taken out of the gound...gas prices rose. How many of you have received notices from your credit card companies that your interest rates are going up and this from companies who have received part of the $350 b of our money used to bail them out.

Is someone making money from this increase...of course.....who is making it.....who knows for sure....Comcast, the villages.net...the developer...who knows for sure..but surely someone is.....is it pure greed?...is it trying to make up losses due to the economic situation? I have no idea. It is, lets be honest....the American way....its called profit motive.....its why people (including the developer) got into business in the first place.

I don't like the idea that Comcast is the only high speed internet provider available...but here in NY....i only have a choice of Time Warner Cable...or Verizon DLS which is far less desirable. I can't count the number of cable price increases i have seen in the last two years.

My trash hauler increased their charges due to increased fuel prices...but now that fuel costs are down.....i called and ask if the fuel surcharge was being reduced...the answer was no. I switched haulers to one that has no fuel surcharge.

This is already too long and i apologize..call it venting if you will....but i just don't understand the uproar over this charge. Justified or not....my opinion is....let the user pay the cost for the convenience...that way it effects only those that CHOOSE to use the service. If the cost is too high for some...if some object to the rate of increase or to whom it may be benefiting, either bite the bullet ...pay the increase for the convenience or...and yes there is an alternative....use the phone system....or organize a letter writing campaign to ask for a change.

Thank u TOTV...for being there...for residents and soon to be residents alike.

It may be venting but it sure made sense to me. I use the computer but really have no broad knowledge of cyberspace and how it works and how the charges might be incurred. I am a tight person, REALLY thrifty, but I love to play golf. Eight dollars a month seems reasonable to me to access 27 executive and 9 championship courses. (And more on the way!!)

[golfnut]

tank, no need to apologize, you may call it venting, I call it a well thought out response, thanks for your input, to me it made a lot of sense.....GN

[Best Mom]

Thanks Tankdriver1950!
I am the one they asked if I was a resident.!!??
The answer is for many years! My golfing friends have been here since the beginning of this place.
So good to see new posters. Back to topic-I will now use the phone to make my tee times.

[rekop]

That said, i am very aware of the T time system...both phone and on-line....i have seen comments on both...both positive and negative....my sense is that i will, upon our arrival, give the phone a try and if it does not meet my needs, head to the on-line system with its associated costs.

I guess i may be naive but i do not understand the furor about an $8 increase for on-line T time access. I understand that it is or appears to be a large increase....$96 additional per year is.....still $96 per year out of the household budget. But are some even more naive than I, to not realize that EVERYTHING...is going up.

I repeat, my point was that for the amount of money a couple will pay, $10,000, and that is not even unlimited golf, that it seems like overkill to have to pay to conveniently make your reservations. After all, you've already paid for a priority membership, and will pay an additional greens fee to actually play golf. If paying for online tee time scheduling was to cover actual expenses it would be one thing, but it appears to be putting additional profits into someone's pocket.

[golfnut]

Your example of playing championship golf 312 times a year for a couple comes out to .30 cents per round to use the online tee time system, now if they golfed a couples times a week at an executive course too, the cost per use would be around .18 cents, looks like a bargain to me.

[tankdvr1950]

Rekop...I certainly understand your comments....BUT...as i said....u have a choice...u can play free at the exec courses.......and i would pay $15,600 at the least expensive (not as nice a TV's) championship courses in my area (NY) and T times would be via phone, first come first served....now lets see.....extra $96/year...when u already pay $10k for golf....thats a .0096% increase.......i wish my food bill would only go up $96/year ....as far as someone making money from the increase...yup...your right....but...if u have investments..would u object to making a profit of $96??????

my intent with the post was not to criticize those who are objecting....just offering my comments.....like with us all....its your call....

as fellow golfer like you....i'll would pay the $96 to play the beautiful courses at TV....hit it long and straight

[Russ_Boston]

Everyone seems to have valid points:

If you want to complain about it then please do. You never know maybe it might work.

If nothing comes of the complaints then you could revert to just using the telephone system.

If you want to use the on-line system then pony up the $96

I do have a question about its use. Do all members of the foursome need to be members of the on-line system? In other words maybe if you have a regular 4 or more members would it be possible to split the $96 and only have 1 person make the reservations? Personally I think I'd like the ability to make my own but perhaps it is a possibility?

[chuckster]

I am not trying to compare the cost of golf in Florida vs other places. My point was only that for the amount of money a couple will pay, $10,000, and that is not even unlimited golf, that it seems like overkill to have to pay to conveniently make your reservations.



If you haven't seen the notice on Villages.Net, take a moment to read.

Briefly it mentions the new rates in effect for 2009 and indicates what is included in the 8.00, called "member services".

. 2 e-mail addresses per household
. access to the villages golf and information system
. access to schedules of events in and around the villages

Granted you may not want anything other than the t-time access but now you have the info. and can choose to dial or use the web. Incidentally I max out at 100 - 120 rounds per year. At 156 rounds per year each for you and your wife (total 312), you win the prize. 116 for me and 85 for the wife last year.

[rekop]

Rekop...I certainly understand your comments....BUT...as i said....u have a choice...u can play free at the exec courses.......and i would pay $15,600 at the least expensive (not as nice a TV's) championship courses in my area (NY) and T times would be via phone, first come first served....now lets see.....extra $96/year...when u already pay $10k for golf....thats a .0096% increase.......i wish my food bill would only go up $96/year ....as far as someone making money from the increase...yup...your right....but...if u have investments..would u object to making a profit of $96??????

my intent with the post was not to criticize those who are objecting....just offering my comments.....like with us all....its your call....

as fellow golfer like you....i'll would pay the $96 to play the beautiful courses at TV....hit it long and straight

You obviously don't play much golf. # 1, the courses here aren't that great. Cane Garden, Mallory and Havana have nice layouts, but the fairways this time of year are like concrete. Hopefully this rain will help some. Glenview, Tierra, Lopez, and Orange Blossom are generally in decent shape, as is Palmer which is very expensive to play.

#2. Executive courses are free, but they are not "real" golf to people who golf a lot. They are short, and basically aimed at beginners or elderly people who can't play the longer courses for a variety of reasons. However, there are a number of golfers, myself included, that have started playing the 9 hole exec courses simply to help out with expenses. And they are not "free" they are subsidised by our amenity fees.

#3. I have been a member of various golf clubs over the years, including some high end private country clubs, and have never had to pay to make a tee time. That's utterly ridiculous. Your ability to make tee times is always included in your membership fee. I think if you're a priority member, that online ability should be included. When you're managing a group for example and checking out tee times for various days, or researching openings to see if women or men are playing, it would be tedious if not impossible to have to do that over the phone, so online access is necessary.

#4. As far as making a profit, I feel the Villages makes plenty of profits off of us. My original post stated that I have no problem with them making a profit, but at some point I think they've gone over the line.

You're entitled to your opinion, but we disagree.

As far as having 2 email addresses, and access to Villages events, who cares? We have our email with comcast and see the events listed in the rec center papers.

Obviously we'll pony up the $$; there is no alternative. But the system doesn't seem fair to me compared to how golf country clubs normally work. They're just taking advantage of people. Some Villagers will sit back and take it. Others, like myself, will question things. To each his own. Stay in the short grass....Rekop

[another Linda]

Perhaps part of the problem is that the villages.net is not owned by TV and so doesn't get any of the profits or amenity fees? I suppose we could vote to have our amenity fees subsidize the online system. But I'll bet non-golfers would object.

[Bogie Shooter]

Some folks have made a mistake by buying in The Villages.

[rekop]

I think some people love it here, but realize it has its imperfections and would like to see it become even better.

[Best Mom]

rekop,
So true.
My feelings completely!

[ijusluvit]

Perhaps part of the problem is that the villages.net is not owned by TV and so doesn't get any of the profits or amenity fees? I suppose we could vote to have our amenity fees subsidize the online system. But I'll bet non-golfers would object.

Is this a fact? Then who owns villages.net?

[llaran]

We have always paid for the tee time system because we don;t have comcast internet service. we have been paying $60 a year and don't like the increase but the convience is worth it. everything has gone up and the phone is still free.

[OutsiderWithInterest]

.

[graciegirl]

You don't have to pay to make a tee time you know. You can call up your favorite course and make one. It won't cost you a dime.

Next best option is to dial the automated phone line. It won't cost you dime more than that amount paid in the amenity fees.

Next best option is to get on the internet to make a tee time. That WILL cost you. Why? Many reasons already discussed.

If you want the online costs to be included in your membership fee, I am sure that that is probably possible. If enough people get together then it will be considered. Know that your memberships will probably go up $100 a year though. That way, instead of you having to suffer the pain of paying it every month, the cost will be buried in your membership fee. Then it will seem "free", just like it appeared at all the clubs you belonged to.

Regarding profit, what does "enough profits" and "over the line" mean? How would one compute a fair profit? Would you not first need to know what the profit is before you could state that it was "enough"? And was it not profit that allowed all of us to accumulate enough money to become Villagers?? How is it that the amount of profit required to achieve that goal is OK but other kinds of profit are not?

I agree that "you're entitled to your opinion, but we disagree." That is my position as well. Who in their right mind wants to pay more for anything? I certainly do not. Seriously though, in a land of 250,000 to 750,000 dollar homes, what's a lousy hundred bucks a year?

I'll sure be glad when everyone gets this out of their system :0000000000luvmyhors

I agree with your well thought out post.

[spruillie]

Am I the only one who didn't know that it was free to comcast customers? I've been paying for years....!???

[rekop]

You don't have to pay to make a tee time you know. You can call up your favorite course and make one. It won't cost you a dime.

Next best option is to dial the automated phone line. It won't cost you dime more than that amount paid in the amenity fees.

You obviously didn't read or didn't grasp the notion that with the online tee time system, there are no comparable alternatives...the phone system is not equivalent.

And frankly, its not the money, its the idea that we as priority country club members pay $10,000 a year and that is not even unlimited golf, and have to pay additional money just for the ability to make an online teetime. There is probably no other country club in the nation that operates that way.

End of subject, for me anyways.

[Russ_Boston]

You can call up your favorite course and make one

I don't think that is true, not in TV, except for early morning 9 hole availability I think you need to use the reservation system. - Golfers out there please correct.

________________

Recop - From what my golfing friends at TV tell me (and there are some very low handicaps included!) the execs at TV are not just for beginners and elderly (I can't believe you even said that word). Golfers out there please comment.

I do agree that perhaps a priority membership should have the on-line system included.

I'm just curious Recop - what is your handicap? I thought perhaps during this thread that you were a golfer but I'm beginning to think otherwise from some of the comments in that last posting.

I love playing longer courses myself and my handicap hovers just out of the single digit range but I don't feel that playing the 9 hole execs is beneath me the way that you make it out to be. I think that they can be fun and challenging - all they lack is the long first drive. I think you should explain those comments a little.

[golfnut]

You obviously don't play much golf. # 1, the courses here aren't that great. Cane Garden, Mallory and Havana have nice layouts, but the fairways this time of year are like concrete. Hopefully this rain will help some. Glenview, Tierra, Lopez, and Orange Blossom are generally in decent shape, as is Palmer which is very expensive to play.

#2. Executive courses are free, but they are not "real" golf to people who golf a lot. They are short, and basically aimed at beginners or elderly people who can't play the longer courses for a variety of reasons. However, there are a number of golfers, myself included, that have started playing the 9 hole exec courses simply to help out with expenses. And they are not "free" they are subsidised by our amenity fees.

#3. I have been a member of various golf clubs over the years, including some high end private country clubs, and have never had to pay to make a tee time. That's utterly ridiculous. Your ability to make tee times is always included in your membership fee. I think if you're a priority member, that online ability should be included. When you're managing a group for example and checking out tee times for various days, or researching openings to see if women or men are playing, it would be tedious if not impossible to have to do that over the phone, so online access is necessary.

#4. As far as making a profit, I feel the Villages makes plenty of profits off of us. My original post stated that I have no problem with them making a profit, but at some point I think they've gone over the line.

You're entitled to your opinion, but we disagree.

As far as having 2 email addresses, and access to Villages events, who cares? We have our email with comcast and see the events listed in the rec center papers.

Obviously we'll pony up the $$; there is no alternative. But the system doesn't seem fair to me compared to how golf country clubs normally work. They're just taking advantage of people. Some Villagers will sit back and take it. Others, like myself, will question things. To each his own. Stay in the short grass....Rekop

Quotes above are from rekop, following are my responses, keep in mind these are just my opinions, you are entitled to yours.

#1 I play golf here everyday and also play courses outside TV and think our courses for the most part are superior, if you don't like the courses why would you play them?
#2 executive courses, first you say they are free then you say they are not free, is that your final answer? IMO they are free since everyone pays the same monthly fee. As far as being real golf , IMO they are very challenging and not aimed strictly at beginners or the elderly, however, since you have belonged to a high end country club I will have to defer to your opinion.
# 3 the online system here is different than anything I've seen before, but then I've never belonged to a high end country club, you might want to look at going back to your high end private country club to get your free tee time system, it's not an option here but I'd be curious to know what your yearly cost was at your high end country club.

IMHO you seem very disenchanted with the setup here and I am curious why you came here as opposed to all the other choices that are out there, if it sounds like I'm having a hard time understanding your responses, well I am....GN

[golfnut]

WOW Russ, a low double digit handicap, good for you, i didn't see your recent post as I was composing mine while yours was coming in but I agree, eldery golfers what a hoot, and I'm also not sure rekop is really a golfer based on his responses, like you I'm curious to see what rekops handicap is, however since rekop has said it's the end of subject for him we will probably never know, how sad....GN

[macgolfnut]

I hate to beat the sbject to death, by I, too, am curious about Rekop. I grew up playing a very high end private country club in the Chicago area, I worked at a private golf club for 32 years, I was a high school golf coach, and I carry a single diget handicap. I find the courses here both challenging and pretty well maintained. The executive courses are a great bargain for free and a wonderful opportunity to work on your short game. If there was only one course here, you would expect it to be superior. But there are 33 and counting. I think they do a remarkable job of organization and upkeep.

Please don't confuse our country clubs with the private country clubs in other parts of the country. They normally have a huge entrance fee and renewal fee, as well as a minimum that you must spend on food or you will be billed. You have to pay a locker fee and whether or not you use a caddie, you must pay for one. Ours are only called country clubs because they have 18 or 27 holes and a nice restaurant. Despite our amenity fees, it is super expensive to build and maintain a golf course for an entire year, not just 6-7 months like up north. That does not include the clubhouse or all the rest of the wonderful amenities we have in TV.

I can't believe someone would buy in a place like this without doing a little homework. If you are a golfer, you should have played some of the courses before you made your decision. If you don't like them and golf is that important to you, then you don't buy here. Also, nobody is forcing you to play a certain number of times per week. That is your choice, as is the choice to use the computer system instead of the phone system.

Yes, whether you take advantage of the many opportunities in TV or not, they will nickel and dime you to death. We all know that. But I just went to the grocery store in the Chicago area( I'm a part timer now, full timer come July) and it cost me over $100.00 for a week of groceries for my wife and me. $96.00 just doesn't seem that much for a whole year for what you get.

This is just My Humble Opinion, so I hope I didn't offend. I'm looking forward to a high of zero degrees for the next couple of days. I can't wait to get back to Paradise.

[graciegirl]

I was confused by Rekops statement about ten thousand dollars a year and then I realized that she must be counting green fees almost daily at the Championship courses. I do agree with her that the executive courses that I have played here pretty much offer you a good time for your short game only, but I have found them well maintained. The dry conditions and the roll are a bit of a challenge when you are trying to make a short iron "stick" but that is fun too. My game has changed over the years but I still cuss when I get into a sand trap or the bull rushes. I find that the executive courses are still a LOT of fun in their own way. I suppose that eight dollars a month could and maybe should be included in the amenity fees, but then you would penalize non golfers further.

[Russ_Boston]

Golfnut - I was not trying to brag about being a 10.1

In fact as we know there are many single digit golfers in TV (and many here on TOTV) and we all strive to become one if possible. I think macgolfnut, who IS a single digit golfer, summed up my feelings. Are TV courses representative of an expensive exclusive club? No they are not. But IMHO they are very nice for courses that costs about $30 - $40 in high season.

But this thread is about the $96 and while we all have the right to complain, the biggest impact you can make as a consumer is with your wallet. If, after complaining, they still have the fee you can then decide to pay it or not. It really is that simple.

[bsliny]

How is this fee to be paid Is it going to be part of the monthly amenties
Or do you pay only when you use it:shrug: Sorry i should have read the previos posts

[Bubbalarry]

Nothing free or really good lasts forever. We got the deal for a year or so and
it spoiled us.

I for one never expected a free-bee from TV or comcast. However if there's anyone who we should complain to is our government that allows comcast to charge such a ridiculous fee for HD Cable TV/Hi-Speed internet and rental of the equipment that we need to for those services.

I pay higher prices back home in NJ, on 2 properties we own. One of which we rent out during the summer at the New Jersey shore compared to down here.

Thats why I keep talking about satellite dish and FTA (Free to air receivers) looking for a installer here in TV because it has No fees- NOT-TA, except the setup of the dish and receiver costs.

So when I read & hear people talk about $ 8.00 bucks, I for one have to laugh.

Your not gonna change it so just like everything else in life, we need to live with it.

Enjoy heaven on earth here in TV, before we head to the big heaven in the sky.

[hh6641]

This fee is not for the Teetime Reservation System. It is for subscribing to the Villages.Net, which if you don't know, is an ISP and email system. There has always been a charge except for Comcast Subscribers. I think it used to be $6 or $6.50. If you want to make a statement, then don't subscribe and use the telephone system if that's all you use it for. Otherwise you'll have to suck it up and pay the fee.

[gratton]

The fee is for the golf tee time system is just what it says, you can't use the site for searching or surfing for the fee, just golf tee times, Oh and yea a email address where you can get for free anyplace on the net, I can't understand why the fee went up except to make more money period, And if you think about it why shouldn't it be included in our amenities, They knew that the phone system would be cumbersome once they got more courses open, It was planed that way believe me, Think about it you get more customers and the price goes up, Seems strange to me.

[downeaster]

The fee is for the golf tee time system is just what it says, you can't use the site for searching or surfing for the fee, just golf tee times, it you get more customers and the price goes up,

If I log on to thevillages.net (currently for free with Comcast) I am on the web, Internet or whatever. I can then surf the web. If I want to search I use Google. I assume it will be the same when the $8.00 fee kicks in.

thevillages.net is not my portal of choice.

BTW, I am not endorsing the fee but it is the only game in town as far as I am concerned.

[Russ_Boston]

Don't confuse the tee time reservation system with any sort of ISP availability. At the villages.net (accessible by anyone on the internet through any sort of connection) you can access the tee time system through a username and PW if you pay the $8 fee per month.

The Villages.net also has a dial-up ISP service that you can get with ($20) or without ($17) the tee time system. This could be used by people who have no other internet connection service and it provides access to the web. (think old AOL). This is the way that most people used to connect in the early 1990s when the net was in its infancy.

[rt]

The last POA bulletin has a great article about the Tee time charge. To charge the folks who only use the Tee time system at TheVillages.net and nothing else is a grand rip-off that you can thank the developer for. He stands to gross 1.9 million without lifting a finger!!! - and he knows it. Complain to the Gary Morse at the AAC, the VCCCD, Customer Service Center, the Morse Family and TheVillages.net. We've got nothing to lose.

[chuckster]

How did you arrive at 1.9 million rt?? Sounds like a stretch since not every household uses villages.net. The solution is easy. Don't buy/use it. You make a bigger impact by not spending your dollars. Personally I like the convenience and ease of .net for the t-time system and will continue to use it. Remember, there are choices.

[withease23]

For those of us who did not subscribe to Comcast Television, and who perhaps had Dish TV or Direct TV, we have been paying $6.00 per month for the Tee Time System for over 5 years. We always had the option to use the telephone system for free, but felt, for us the convenience was worth the $6.00. Now TV has raised the fee to $8.00. I'm sure there's a Cost Of Living raise in there somewhere, but we continue to feel the fee is worth the convenience.:read:

[RCT]

You obviously don't play much golf. # 1, the courses here aren't that great. Cane Garden, Mallory and Havana have nice layouts, but the fairways this time of year are like concrete. Hopefully this rain will help some. Glenview, Tierra, Lopez, and Orange Blossom are generally in decent shape, as is Palmer which is very expensive to play.

#2. Executive courses are free, but they are not "real" golf to people who golf a lot. They are short, and basically aimed at beginners or elderly people who can't play the longer courses for a variety of reasons. However, there are a number of golfers, myself included, that have started playing the 9 hole exec courses simply to help out with expenses. And they are not "free" they are subsidised by our amenity fees.

#3. I have been a member of various golf clubs over the years, including some high end private country clubs, and have never had to pay to make a tee time. That's utterly ridiculous. Your ability to make tee times is always included in your membership fee. I think if you're a priority member, that online ability should be included. When you're managing a group for example and checking out tee times for various days, or researching openings to see if women or men are playing, it would be tedious if not impossible to have to do that over the phone, so online access is necessary.

#4. As far as making a profit, I feel the Villages makes plenty of profits off of us. My original post stated that I have no problem with them making a profit, but at some point I think they've gone over the line.

You're entitled to your opinion, but we disagree.

As far as having 2 email addresses, and access to Villages events, who cares? We have our email with comcast and see the events listed in the rec center papers.

Obviously we'll pony up the $$; there is no alternative. But the system doesn't seem fair to me compared to how golf country clubs normally work. They're just taking advantage of people. Some Villagers will sit back and take it. Others, like myself, will question things. To each his own. Stay in the short grass....Rekop

Quotes above are from rekop, following are my responses, keep in mind these are just my opinions, you are entitled to yours.

#1 I play golf here everyday and also play courses outside TV and think our courses for the most part are superior, if you don't like the courses why would you play them?
#2 executive courses, first you say they are free then you say they are not free, is that your final answer? IMO they are free since everyone pays the same monthly fee. As far as being real golf , IMO they are very challenging and not aimed strictly at beginners or the elderly, however, since you have belonged to a high end country club I will have to defer to your opinion.
# 3 the online system here is different than anything I've seen before, but then I've never belonged to a high end country club, you might want to look at going back to your high end private country club to get your free tee time system, it's not an option here but I'd be curious to know what your yearly cost was at your high end country club.

IMHO you seem very disenchanted with the setup here and I am curious why you came here as opposed to all the other choices that are out there, if it sounds like I'm having a hard time understanding your responses, well I am....GN Palmer VERY expensive to play??? Where did you come from, that 41 dollars for a priority member, in peak season is expensive?!?!?!?!?

[golfnut]

rt, like chuckster I'm looking for an explanation on the $1.9M, please lift your finger, inquiring minds want to know....GN

[iaudit]

For those of us who did not subscribe to Comcast Television, and who perhaps had Dish TV or Direct TV, we have been paying $6.00 per month for the Tee Time System for over 5 years. We always had the option to use the telephone system for free, but felt, for us the convenience was worth the $6.00. Now TV has raised the fee to $8.00. I'm sure there's a Cost Of Living raise in there somewhere, but we continue to feel the fee is worth the convenience.:read:

Who exactly is the "we" that you refer to? I also have been paying the $6 per month and I thought that was excessive from the get go. Increasing it to $8 per month is adding insult to injury. Do not lump me into those that feel the fee is worth the convenience.

In my opinion, the tee time system should be run by the central district, not by the developer, and the charge should be just enough to cover the cost of development and operation. It should NOT be supported by our amenity fee but an extra charge incurred by those that golf.

[Muncle]

How did you arrive at 1.9 million rt?? Sounds like a stretch since not every household uses villages.net. The solution is easy. Don't buy/use it. You make a bigger impact by not spending your dollars. Personally I like the convenience and ease of .net for the t-time system and will continue to use it. Remember, there are choices.

Chuck, here's the article from the POA bulletin. You may remember that I've never been a POA fan, but I get the impression they are changing a bit. As to the numbers, they may be swags, but they provide a good baseline. I tend to agree with their argument, but like you, I'll likely pay up and play/.


Golf Tee Time System
Comcast users are scheduled to pay $8.00
per month to use the developer�s Tee Time
System on computers starting June 1, 2009.
Out of about 30,000 homes, there probably
are close to 20,000 subscribers that use
the computer Tee Time System. This would
yield $160,000 a month to run the Tee Time
System at $8.00 per month per account, or
$1.9 million a year.
Something is funny here. A fee of $8.00 a
month and $1.9 million a year seems unusually
high just to make golf reservations. We
get the feeling that the developer is trying to
take advantage of the residents on this issue.
As an alternative, why not charge residents
$1.00 per month (billed annually) to
access the Villages.net system for only the
tee time system? This seems more reasonable
and would generate $240,000 annually
to pay for operating the system. Surely, the
developer can operate the system for less
than that.
We think the Amenity Authority Committee
should research the feasibility of having
our amenity fees pay for the Tee Time System.
If there are no funds for that, then
$240,000 a year is a reasonable compromise
that should be able to keep everybody happy.
We would ask the AAC to take the lead in
negotiating an arrangement. □

[OutsiderWithInterest]

Oh no, not again!

[Ooper]

I don't like paying increasing or new fees any more than the next guy... but I don't see what is so hard to understand. The developer is not going to make money from this... it is Comcast that is going to reap the benefits. The Villages had a contract with Comcast and that contract is ending and not being renewed because Comcast wanted too much money from the developer so the developer just washed their hands of it. If you want to complain, complain to Comcast. I really don't see what is so hard to understand about this. And Comcast is just raising their fees $2 for the 1st time in over 5 years. Like I said, I don't like this fee any more than anybody else, but business is business. And if you don't want to pay... use the phone line... simple as that!

[chuckster]

Muncle thanks for the reference......I agree with some of the assumptions (the POA does seem to be mellowing) but will continue to pay for the convenience of a "visual" system.

[GatbTester]

You can say what you want; however, with the greed of the developer already evident in many other areas, how could you expect some different treatment?

[chuckster]

Gatb Tester

I must be naive but what are the "many other areas" of developer greed. It would be helpful to list them so that I could be better informed. Thanks.

[Russ_Boston]

The developer is not going to make money from this... it is Comcast that is going to reap the benefits.

Comcast owns villages.net? That's who the money is paid to. Correct?

[trav]

It seems to me that Comcast had been absorbing the fee for a period of time as a hook to get cable customers. That arrangement is now coming to an end. The villages.net can be accessed through any ISP but you still need to get sign in an passwords through them. It is now The Villages.net that is imposing the fee not Comcast. Just my opinion

[iaudit]

I don't like paying increasing or new fees any more than the next guy... but I don't see what is so hard to understand. The developer is not going to make money from this... it is Comcast that is going to reap the benefits. The Villages had a contract with Comcast and that contract is ending and not being renewed because Comcast wanted too much money from the developer so the developer just washed their hands of it. If you want to complain, complain to Comcast. I really don't see what is so hard to understand about this. And Comcast is just raising their fees $2 for the 1st time in over 5 years. Like I said, I don't like this fee any more than anybody else, but business is business. And if you don't want to pay... use the phone line... simple as that!

This is 100% wrong. Comcast is getting nothing out of this, the developer is getting all the money.

[katezbox]

This is 100% wrong. Comcast is getting nothing out of this, the developer is getting all the money.

It seems there are differences of opinion on this - laudit or anyone - can you cite your source for who earns this money? Like many of you, I am willing to pay a fee for the service - but I would like to know who is getting the revenue.

Thanks so much,

Kate

[villages07]

Way back in the beginning of this thread (or perhaps it was a related thread), I had planned to dig into this arrangement.... well, I talked to folks at Comcast, villages.net, and the golf and country club division of The Villages. I didn't get many clear answers and employees didn't seem to be told many details. It got to be a frustrating search with little hope of any relief, so I gave up.

The original deal between Comcast and the Developer is a little murky.... whether comcast was paying the developer or the tee time access was part of their original deal, I dont know.... and, it's somewhat immaterial now. The deal is over.

Villages.net is a private for profit company and is one of many owned directly or indirectly by the developer. They will reap all the revenues from the tee time system as well as the cost for operations and maintenance.

My issue before and now is that the projected revenues (and I agree with the approx $2 million) represent an enormous profit. I was an IT development manager and I know the costs of developing, maintaining, and operating an online system.... this is no $2M/year system.

As a golfer, I would not squawk with paying a reasonable fee to use the tee time system.... but something at or less than $50/year makes sense to me and still provides a tidy profit. I have great respect for the developer, but, sorry folks...this time I think we are being gouged. But, like Uncle Muncle, I'll grouse about it and pay the fee anyway.

I do suspect that comcast stands to lose a lot of subscribers in the next 3 months..... between this additional $8 and a recent $4/month cable TV increase.... the equation to go with Direct/Dish is getting heavily weighted to making the switch. I mentioned this to the Comcast staff and they shrugged their shoulders with a 'who cares' response.

I would not mind seeing a public campaign to expose the cash flow/costs/beneficiaries of this new charge. Maybe that letter/article in the POA will get more folks fired up about this.

All of the above are my own opinions.

[Bob S]

It seems to me that the most direct way for homeowners to respond is to vote with their dollars. If most residents boycott the $8/ month pay system and stick to calling in, perhaps there will be pressure on the developer to make the fee more reasonable.

[billethkid]

We got caught in the transition to Comcast. We were told we were "grandfathered" and there would be no charge for access to TV.net and the T time system. Not a word about it only lasting till 6/09.

My opinion: TV made a deal with Comcast. TV .net is owned/operated by TV. The T time system is part of TV. It is an issue of TV....for TV...by TV...et al.

I will NOT pay an additional $$ to any provider for an amenity of TV.

There are so many changes in TV management they can play hide the facts till the buffalo come home!!

I am in the process of dumping Comcast.They have old non digital technology technology with band aids to provide some HD programming. They have consistant pricing increases with no up grade of performance for the same old same old technology. Yes someday they will get to fiber optic....who knows when. They are one of the last to make the conversion.

I am switching to Dis Network this month. I have already gone to Verizon's air card for high speed internet. I tried their air card for the last month and unless you are a major download/upload freak for music and video streaming, there is hardly a noticeable difference. The air card is $59 per month for 5 gig per month....most people will never ever even hit one gig. Comcast high speed internet is $45 per month and rising. The Dish net work programming...all digital...substantially more HD programming.....$78 per month. At the end of the switch I will be paying $10-15 less per month than Comcast. I will use the phone for T times it is no big deal and it is free.

Plus I can take the Dish Network box to our lake home and use it there for no additional charge so I get to use one provider for both locations. Another almost $60 per month savings.

Plus with the Dish Network promotions currently available, the monthly fee is reduced by $35 per month for 6 months. Another almost $500 savings over the 6 month period.

Why would one stay with Comcast or TV.net??? For the $$$ one wouldn't and I am not.

When it is time to call Comcast and cancel they will do some real strange things price wise to keep the account. My answer....too late.

Until another cable provider comes to town, we are hamstrung and held at bay by Comcast....just like TV. That will change when the upcoming fiber optic capability is attained by the phone companies. Then watch what Comcast does to TRY to be competitive.

I find it quite interesting that friends and family who live on the fringe of TV where they have acces to Brighthouse Cable....most choose Brighthouse VS Comcast.....they have better technology. And I wonder why they are not (allowed) in TV.

I will soon have better programming....the flexibiloity of a second location for no additional cost. It is a no brainer. The other alternative is Direct TV....it boils down to a matter of choice....get it...a choice....which one does not have with TV or Comcast.

Asta la vista Comcast and TV and money in my pocket!!!! No contest!!

BTK

[katezbox]

Way back in the beginning of this thread (or perhaps it was a related thread), I had planned to dig into this arrangement.... well, I talked to folks at Comcast, villages.net, and the golf and country club division of The Villages. I didn't get many clear answers and employees didn't seem to be told many details. It got to be a frustrating search with little hope of any relief, so I gave up.

The original deal between Comcast and the Developer is a little murky.... whether comcast was paying the developer or the tee time access was part of their original deal, I dont know.... and, it's somewhat immaterial now. The deal is over.

Villages.net is a private for profit company and is one of many owned directly or indirectly by the developer. They will reap all the revenues from the tee time system as well as the cost for operations and maintenance.

My issue before and now is that the projected revenues (and I agree with the approx $2 million) represent an enormous profit. I was an IT development manager and I know the costs of developing, maintaining, and operating an online system.... this is no $2M/year system.

As a golfer, I would not squawk with paying a reasonable fee to use the tee time system.... but something at or less than $50/year makes sense to me and still provides a tidy profit. I have great respect for the developer, but, sorry folks...this time I think we are being gouged. But, like Uncle Muncle, I'll grouse about it and pay the fee anyway.

I do suspect that comcast stands to lose a lot of subscribers in the next 3 months..... between this additional $8 and a recent $4/month cable TV increase.... the equation to go with Direct/Dish is getting heavily weighted to making the switch. I mentioned this to the Comcast staff and they shrugged their shoulders with a 'who cares' response.

I would not mind seeing a public campaign to expose the cash flow/costs/beneficiaries of this new charge. Maybe that letter/article in the POA will get more folks fired up about this.

All of the above are my own opinions.

V07

Thank you for a well-written, informative post. I am also a software person and agree that the cost to develop is minimal. Like you and Muncie, we will also pay the fee. At the time we both retire, well, we shall see...

[GrayGoose]

Yes, that's $8 per month, beginning next summer. If you do some math with the number of Comcast customers there are in TV, some of us think this is an outrageous amount, way more than the actual cost to The Villages to provide the tee time service as part of Villages.net. After all, The Villages already has huge computer capability, servers, personnel, etc. The tee time software was purchased a few years ago because it was far more efficient than using the phone. It may cost a little more to run that program now that there are more residents, but does that warrant an increase from an annual fee of zero to $100!

One of our members is researching this matter and I for one can't wait to read what she discovers.

Lets see $8 x 50,000 people that play golf... $2,880,000 a year... HELLObarf

[iaudit]

Lets see $8 x 50,000 people that play golf... $2,880,000 a year... HELLObarf

HELLO. $8/month times 12 months/year equals $96 per year times 30,000 HOUSEHOLDS equals $2,880,000.

10,000 households = $960,000
20,000 households = $1,920,000
30,000 households = $2,880,000

The rate is per household, not golfer, take your pick how many households actually use the system.

[cabo35]

REMEMBER THE BOSTON TEA PARTY!!! Dissenters who are outraged at the tee time registration fee should meet on June 14, Flag Day, at the dock on Lake Sumter and toss a golf TEE into the lake to protest taxation without representation.

All others...on June 14, book your favorite course and tee time while everyone else is throwing golf tees in the lake.

Free tee fees now!
Free tee fees now!
Free tee fees now!

Tee shirts with the red hot "Free Tee Fees" logo, will be available at all starter shacks for just $29.95. $39.95 at Palmer.

Those who don't care can obtain a tee shirt with large printed letters stating, "What...me worry?" , and a full face frontal of Alfred E. Newman. The development office says you can pick them up free where the buffalo roam.

Who is Alfred E. Newman?

http://www.leconcombre.com/concpost/us/postcard4/alfred_e_neuman.html

[zcaveman]

Before you decide to dump the online Tee Time System, I suggest you try using the telephone system as your sole means of getting requests and reservations for your groups for the next month. After two weeks, I think you will be willing to pay the $8 a month.

I am not happy with the $8 a month but anything will beat the telephone system - especially if you have several groups that you make requests and reservations for.

Also, I will repeat some info from my first note. When I moved here in 2001, ClearLink was the plan for a total Villages cable company. Anyone on ClearLink hi-speed got the villages.net free. When the Villages decided to dump ClearLink and go with Comcast, Comcast sent us a letter that the villages.net would be free until June, 2009. I still have the letter. Comcast gave all Villagers using the high speed internet the free villages.net. Maybe they did not specify the 6/2009 date but all introductory prices come with a catch. The date was 6/2009.

And for those that wonder why you get two email addresses, it is so that the online Tee Time System can deliver the tee time reservations from the requests directly to your PC if you use a PC client email product since they only recognize the village.net as a valid domain.

I agree with all of the other posts about the amount of money the villages.net and the developer are going to "glean" from us but the alternative is not worth the time and the pain.

Z

[OutsiderWithInterest]

I hesitate to get wet again, but what the heck? The water is very warm.

The most intelligent observation offered in this whole thread is this:
"Villages.net is a private for profit company."

This fact sums up and ends the conversation does it not? Like every such business, it boils down to one question for the customer: Is the service received worth the price?

If the answer is no, then the solution is very easy: Cancel your subscription. Then use the phone system. You can make a reservation in two minutes or less. It is VERY EASY. If the answer is yes, then shut up already and go play golf.

Oh I suppose, if enough people complained about their property taxes and bugged their representatives to death then something might change...OH I'M SORRY. I forgot. We were talking about an $8/month voluntary payment, not a mandatory $500/month for taxes (I tend to focus on things that really cost money, not 3 or 4 beers a month. Again I apologize).

Maybe you all should make this the issue of 2009 and force the district to ante up and pay an annual fee to the villages.net so that all residents can access the tee time system, "for free", as some say. Wouldn't that solve your problem? Money you can't see is money you wouldn't be spending right? Those poor kids at the villages. net would probably love that. Then they wouldn't have to hear you complainers go on about EIGHT DOLLARS day after day after day after day after day.

To the issue of all the computations offered, know that every one is 100% off the mark. You all are just guessing. Do you even know how many subscribers there are? I certainly do not. Without that, you can't even write the first number down on paper. It's a jolly waste of time. Plus it costs you an extra blood pressure pill. Why would you do that to yourselves?

Even villages07, who, with his experience as IT development manager KNOWS THE COST of "an" online system, saying that "this is no $2M/year system" [is there a tee time system on your resume by chance? Would you happen to know anything about the complexities involved? That isn't meant to be a rhetorical question...I really would like you to explain some aspects of its to us], let me say this:

It must be isn't it? After all, it IS generating $2M of greed to the developer (according to your calculations).

This is way over the top I know. But gee whiz people, it gets so old. Take your 8 bucks and drive to a course outside of the Villages for gosh sakes. Sure it cost money to get there, but "BY GOD, I was able to call them up and reserve a tee time, FOR FREE."

[cabo35]

I thank God every morning when I wake up in the Villages....a place where passionate controversy and healthy, spirited debate focus on whether its worth spending $8.00 a month for the OPTIONAL convenience of booking your tee times on line. Thank you TOTV. :024: Ain't life grand. :clap2: Be of good cheer! :laugh: Celebrate!!! :beer3:

[katezbox]

I thank God every morning when I wake up in the Villages....a place where passionate controversy and healthy, spirited debate focus on whether its worth spending $8.00 a month for the OPTIONAL convenience of booking your tee times on line. Thank you TOTV. :024: Ain't life grand. :clap2: Be of good cheer! :laugh: Celebrate!!! :beer3:

Cabo,

You say it all!:eclipsee_gold_cup:

[EdV]

I gave my thoughts on this issue in another thread on the subject but I think it is worth repeating here:

The real question that should be answered is whether or not the Developer has the right to charge individual Villagers for specific services that are an integral part of the Amenities, rather than making them part of the Monthly Amenities Fee that everyone shares.

Recently I uploaded a transposed copy of the Declaration of Restrictions for the Lake Sumter district which I had converted into a searchable PDF. It is posted in the Nuts and Bolts forum for reference purposes when discussing covenants and restrictions here in TOTV.

Section 4.1 � C of that contractual document states that:

�Each Owner agrees that as additional facilities are requested by the Owner, and the erection of such additional facilities is agreed to by the Developer, that upon a Vote of � of the Owners approving such additional facilities and commensurate charges therefore, the monthly Contractual Amenities Fee provided for herein shall be increased accordingly.�

Now the question is, what is the definition of a facility. Dictionary.com defines it as:

a. Something designed, built, installed, etc., to serve a specific function affording a convenience or service.
b. Something that permits the easier performance of an action, course of conduct, etc.

Now if that doesn�t describe the on-line reservation system, I don�t know what does. I�m not a lawyer but I think that a reasonable argument could be made for the idea that charging a separate fee for the use of this new facility is a breach of the contract that the developer signed with each Villager.

The representatives of the developer are always quick to point out that the amenity fee is not a tax, but is instead a contractual obligation and is subject to the terms as stipulated in the Declaration of Restrictions. OK, fine, but it's a two way street.

When it comes to anything having to do with the identified amenities (exec courses and rec centers), you really owe it to yourselves to make sure that the developer colors inside the lines.

[Russ_Boston]

But the argument could be made that the courses have a free reservation system (by phone). I would think that the on-line system could be considered a 'value added' function beyond the required free access.

Also, like you, not a lawyer.

[katezbox]

But the argument could be made that the courses have a free reservation system (by phone). I would think that the on-line system could be considered a 'value added' function beyond the required free access.

Also, like you, not a lawyer.

Russ,

I'm not a lawyer either - but my opinion mirrors yours.

To me it is like the high speed ferries to Block Isl. or Martha's Vineyard or the Canadian Maritimes. You can get there for less other ways - but time is worth something. Only you can decide how much on-line vs phone is worth to you.

[EdV]

But the argument could be made that the courses have a free reservation system (by phone). I would think that the on-line system could be considered a 'value added' function beyond the required free access.

Also, like you, not a lawyer.

I think you�re missing my point. There�s no question that the online system adds value, some wouldn�t dream of going back to the old phone based system that lacks features they use all the time. That�s clear from some of the posts in this thread.

The point I�m trying to make is that the developer has added value to a basic amenity that is supposed to be governed by the contract every villager signed when they bought their home. And according to my interpretation of that contract, anything done to those facilities is supposed to be funded by the amenity fee that is shared by all villagers.

For example, how would you feel if the next time you go to your local recreation center for a swim and find that there is now a new section of the pool area. In that area are fancy lounge chairs with plush cushions and canopies , an ice dispenser, and even air conditioning to keep the area cool in the heat of summer. But there�s a sign that says �this area reserved for Pool Club members only�. And when you inquire, you are told that the developer has set up these areas at each of the recreation centers and membership is $50/month or $500/yr and you can use these value-added areas at any of the recreation centers.

So it�s not about whether the $8/mo for the online system is worth it, nor about how much it costs to implement it. It�s about whether or not the developer should be allowed to add value to the basic amenities and charge individually for it. And my take is that the contract calls for anything done to the amenity facilities must be funded by the amenity fees.

I think the POA and newly elected AAC members should make it clear to the developer that he can add value and charge for anything he wants, just don�t mess with the amenities.

And Katezbox, regarding the high speed ferry, you may have given the developer a new idea. Granted, the golf cart bridge is not an amenity, but don�t be surprised to find a 50 cent toll both there the next time you go to cross it. No big deal, you can always get in your car and cross 441 that way.

[Alex]

Thanks for a good post EdVinMass!

[Russ_Boston]

Remember - certain things ARE left off the use of the amenities. For example if you want to walk the exec courses that is free but if you want to ride then you need to pay an additional trail fee even though the cart paths are already in place. Why couldn't this be challenged per your argument?

If you want to use the phone it's free if you want to use the on-line system it is 26 cents per day additional.

[Talk Host]

I think you�re missing my point. There�s no question that the online system adds value, some wouldn�t dream of going back to the old phone based system that lacks features they use all the time. That�s clear from some of the posts in this thread.

The point I�m trying to make is that the developer has added value to a basic amenity that is supposed to be governed by the contract every villager signed when they bought their home. And according to my interpretation of that contract, anything done to those facilities is supposed to be funded by the amenity fee that is shared by all villagers.

For example, how would you feel if the next time you go to your local recreation center for a swim and find that there is now a new section of the pool area. In that area are fancy lounge chairs with plush cushions and canopies , an ice dispenser, and even air conditioning to keep the area cool in the heat of summer. But there�s a sign that says �this area reserved for Pool Club members only�. And when you inquire, you are told that the developer has set up these areas at each of the recreation centers and membership is $50/month or $500/yr and you can use these value-added areas at any of the recreation centers.

So it�s not about whether the $8/mo for the online system is worth it, nor about how much it costs to implement it. It�s about whether or not the developer should be allowed to add value to the basic amenities and charge individually for it. And my take is that the contract calls for anything done to the amenity facilities must be funded by the amenity fees.

I think the POA and newly elected AAC members should make it clear to the developer that he can add value and charge for anything he wants, just don�t mess with the amenities.

And Katezbox, regarding the high speed ferry, you may have given the developer a new idea. Granted, the golf cart bridge is not an amenity, but don�t be surprised to find a 50 cent toll both there the next time you go to cross it. No big deal, you can always get in your car and cross 441 that way.


Although I'm not completely sure of all the details, I was led to believe that certain amenities at some of the golf courses are reserved for those who pay the extra priority golfing fee. Is it true that some of those pools are only for those who pay the priority fee. I do know that at one time, Cattle Baron was only for priory golf members, but that bit the big one.

[Russ_Boston]

The pools at the CC's are additional but that doesn't follow the amenities argument since the CC's are not supported by the amenity fee anyway.

[katezbox]

And Katezbox, regarding the high speed ferry, you may have given the developer a new idea. Granted, the golf cart bridge is not an amenity, but don�t be surprised to find a 50 cent toll both there the next time you go to cross it. No big deal, you can always get in your car and cross 441 that way.

Ed,

LOL

I hear you - but I don't think the language in the documents prohibits the developer from finding additional sources of revenue. I'm not trying to take a stand on whether this is greed, fair or somewhere in between.

k

PS - hope the golf cart bridge doesn't become like the the NH tolls on 95!

[Talk Host]

The pools at the CC's are additional but that doesn't follow the amenities argument since the CC's are not supported by the amenity fee anyway.


I think it does address the argument that was made by EdVinMass in his post.

[EdV]

Lets not confuse the issue by using the trail fee argument as a justification for allowing the developer to add fees at his whim to the basic amenities and pocketing the revenue.

The trail fees are revenues that go into the operating funds of the amenites and offsets the cost of maintaining the executive course golf cart paths. That revenue I believe is listed on the Village Center Community Development District's (VCCDD) Recreational Amenities Division (RAD) annual budget as "Parks & Recreation Fees & Charges" to the tune of 1.6 million dollars. Here's a link to that http://www.districtgov.org/vccdd/yourdistrict/images/vccdd_bas_090131.pdf

As far as I know, not one cent of the 8 dollars per month charged for the online tee time system ends up in the revenues of the VCCDD's RAD.

Now if I'm wrong about that and those fees are in fact revenue to the VCCDD, then I would withdraw my objection to it and any discussion of the issue can focus on whether or not one feels it's worth the value added and use it or not based on personal choice.

[OutsiderWithInterest]

Lets not confuse the issue by using the trail fee argument as a justification for allowing the developer to add fees at his whim to the basic amenities and pocketing the revenue.

The trail fees are revenues that go into the operating funds of the amenites and offsets the cost of maintaining the executive course golf cart paths. That revenue I believe is listed on the Village Center Community Development District's (VCCDD) Recreational Amenities Division (RAD) annual budget as "Parks & Recreation Fees & Charges" to the tune of 1.6 million dollars. Here's a link to that http://www.districtgov.org/vccdd/yourdistrict/images/vccdd_bas_090131.pdf

As far as I know, not one cent of the 8 dollars per month charged for the online tee time system ends up in the revenues of the VCCDD's RAD.

Now if I'm wrong about that and those fees are in fact revenue to the VCCDD, then I would withdraw my objection to it and any discussion of the issue can focus on whether or not one feels it's worth the value added and use it or not based on personal choice.

The argument could also be made that the presence or absence of the online system in no way affects anyone's ability to golf at the villages. How would you quantify this added value then? Resident 1 may be golfing 7 days a week using the phone system with no complaints. Resident 2 may be doing the same via the online system, also with no complaints. What's the difference of benefit? One might say, "It's too hard to work with groups on the phone." Others then might say, "I don't care about groups. It works fine for me and my small group."

Nevertheless, let's cut to the chase. The REAL argument is about you not getting access FOR FREE right?...with "FREE" meaning that whatever the cost, it is spread among every resident. In other words, why should you pay $8 when you could by paying $1 or $2? If it was $0 there would be no problem whatsoever right?! That's what's going on here. You want to use whatever tool possible (now legal documents) to force the issue, so you can use the online tee time system for free.

So then, why not advocate that the district pay for it then? Charge every house a couple of bucks a month and be done with it. Then you get it for FREE. Provided that $2 bucks a house would cover the costs. Never mind those who have no need for it or ever want it. Make them pay anyway.

I have to say, fwiw, this is how the US got so screwed up. Some group in Oregon needs 50-million bucks for something. Instead of them forking over the cash, they tickle the ears of their representative (and leave a few bucks in his pocket), and he goes back to Washington and gets it appropriated. Then I, way down here in Florida, get to help pay a few cents for a little project in Oregon that I will never see, touch, smell, or worse of all, even know that I paid for part of it.

[EdV]

......Nevertheless, let's cut to the chase. The REAL argument is about you not getting access FOR FREE right?

Wrong!

Furthermore, this is not a political discussion. If you want to discuss politics and how tax dollars are spent, there is a forum for that. This is about business. The amenity fee is not a tax, it�s a fee that is mandated by a contract between the developer and every villager.

And the amenities identified in that contract are supposed to be managed according to that contract. This is a discussion about whether or not the developer should be allowed to add a service to an amenity and charge separately for it and pocket the profits instead of having that service funded by the amenity and being paid for by the service fees collected from the golfers that prefer to use that value added service.

[dillywho]

I signed up with the Villages.net when I ditched Comcast Cable internet and went with Sprint DSL (now Embarq) because I could no longer afford the cable internet. At that time it was $6. The way cable keeps going up, it stands to reason that they are not furnishing Villages.net for nothing. Contracts expire and maybe that is what has happened here. Don't know how it all works, but it could be that Villages.net now has to pay Comcast. Everything is not covered by the ammenity fee...else we couldn't afford the fee, either. My son lives in Jacksonville and pays $176 monthly fee and for that gets an outdoor pool, a party room, workout room, and maintenance for his postage stamp yard.....no golf courses, no rec centers, no golf cart privileges, etc. Seems we already get a lot for our money.

[Hancle704]

I have no way of knowing what transpired back then, between the Developer who apparently owns TheVillages.net and Comcast, that provided online access for Village's Comcast clients to the tee time system. I am of the opinion that there had to be some arrangement made $$$$, that gave TheVillages.net some compensation for this service:beer3:. Now that the contract is about to expire it would seem reasonable for Comcast to either renew it and continue to pay the fee or, give it's clients who have been using the service a reduction in their monthly high speed internet charge.

Am I alone in this thinking view?

[aln]

Here's my opinion folks......... it's kinda like the buffalo!

[The Great Fumar]

When the villages are completed there will be 46 golf courses (including 12 country clubs with 27 holes each.) Having the ability to go online and scan all the courses and pic and choose the one you want is an outstanding perk that is cheap at 8 bucks.....I haven't lost one minutes sleep over it and to cover it , once a month I won't go to McDonald's for lunch on my way home from the golf course...However now that I think about it , I don't think I ever did go to McDonald's for lunch so I probably won't miss it......
That said, let me respond to a poster who said that the Exec courses are not for real golfers and just for beginners and old people ......I will be glad to forward your note on to NANCY LOPEZ who played pelican from the blues and stated afterward that she didn't think she was ready for this tour......

The online system is a valuable service to me and many of my golfing friends and I for one consider it a great tool for creating ease of play in the villages , I consider it a heleva deal....
for those who don't , Then DIAL ONE FOR ENGLISH !!!!!!

THE GREAT FUMAR...

[dillywho]

When the villages are completed there will be 46 golf courses (including 12 country clubs with 27 holes each.) Having the ability to go online and scan all the courses and pic and choose the one you want is an outstanding perk that is cheap at 8 bucks.....I haven't lost one minutes sleep over it and to cover it , once a month I won't go to McDonald's for lunch on my way home from the golf course...However now that I think about it , I don't think I ever did go to McDonald's for lunch so I probably won't miss it......
That said, let me respond to a poster who said that the Exec courses are not for real golfers and just for beginners and old people ......I will be glad to forward your note on to NANCY LOPEZ who played pelican from the blues and stated afterward that she didn't think she was ready for this tour......

The online system is a valuable service to me and many of my golfing friends and I for one consider it a great tool for creating ease of play in the villages , I consider it a heleva deal....
for those who don't , Then DIAL ONE FOR ENGLISH !!!!!!

THE GREAT FUMAR...

Real golfers??? As far as I know, Nancy and Arnie are the only ones here that have been on a real tour. I don't know of any of the other "real golfers" here that have a Green Jacket, either.

[chuckster]

Agree with all you say Fumar except Tierra and OBH are 18 holes. Thought I would point that out as I knew you were testing us to see who would catch it first. :bowdown:

[Russ_Boston]

Real golfers??? As far as I know, Nancy and Arnie are the only ones here that have been on a real tour. I don't know of any of the other "real golfers" here that have a Green Jacket, either.

Not sure what your point is. There are some excellent players who live in TV.

And besides, TV golf is for everyone to enjoy.

[zcaveman]

Real golfers??? As far as I know, Nancy and Arnie are the only ones here that have been on a real tour. I don't know of any of the other "real golfers" here that have a Green Jacket, either.


I have a green jacket. Does that make me a real golfer or just a guy with a green jacket. Ami I missing something?

[Ooper]

Real golfers??? As far as I know, Nancy and Arnie are the only ones here that have been on a real tour. I don't know of any of the other "real golfers" here that have a Green Jacket, either.

Wow... went over my head!

[dadspet]

$8 for what you get is a rip off. Way over priced for a single function internet used a few times a week for a very short period of time. Perhaps those who play Championship courses don't mind the extra fee but to me it stinks!

And using the phone system is a real hassle!

[dillywho]

Not sure what your point is. There are some excellent players who live in TV.

And besides, TV golf is for everyone to enjoy.

I'll try and spell it out for ya'll. I was referring to the remark in the quote I included that alluded to the idea that the executive courses were for those in TV that are not "real golfers" and was wondering just what a "real golfer" by their definition would be. I got from that post that some of the excellent golfers you referenced feel that they are too good to stoop to the level of playing executive courses. They may be good, but not as good as Nancy Lopez or Arnie Palmer for instance, and she evidently will play those courses. As for the green jacket, I meant the one earned by playing and winning the Masters. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone by questioning the post and you're right...TV golf is for everyone to enjoy and not be belittled by which course or courses they choose to play in the process.

[Bogie Shooter]

Real golfers??? As far as I know, Nancy and Arnie are the only ones here that have been on a real tour. I don't know of any of the other "real golfers" here that have a Green Jacket, either.

Lucy, please splain!

[jackcis]

I agree with you, also, I think that especially during the Holidays most anyone who visits the home owners are either grand children, sons etc. When you take them to an Executive
Course and they charge you $10.00 each for the kids, but things must be really bad, they charge and additional $5.00 for the kids to ride in your golf cart.
Hard to understand how much money you now have to pay for a little enjoyment with you family

[Moderator]

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Please feel free to start a new thread on a new or related topic.