Golf Course Conditions - Per Eric Van Gorder, Director of Executive Golf Maintenance

[ddharrold]

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 I sent the following email to GolfTheVillages.com. Though the response comes from the Director of Executive Golf Course Maintenance, I suspect what he shares applies to Championship Courses as well.
------------------------
Our neighborhood group played Saddlebrook & Hawkes Bay on Friday, May 27, 2016. Both courses are a disaster. As I recall one or both of these courses were closed for an extended period about the time last year. Apparently whatever was done didn't take. It seems to me that The Villages should have one or two persons on staff with training in golf course turf maintenance and these professionals should be visiting every golf course on a regular basis and instructing the contract maintenance people exactly what needs to be done to ensure good playing conditions. Perhaps even partnering with one or two colleges that specialize in golf course turf management to provide intern positions. Yes, I read the recent explanation in the paper about "transitional" conditions, but several places throughout The Villages aren't suffering from "transitional" issues; they are suffering from improper turf management.
================
This is the response I received on May 31, 2016
Hi David,
Thank you for the email and your concerns are valid and understood. I will be as brief as possible and try my best to help explain without excuses on conditioning and that all avenues are being addressed to correct the situation with these golf courses.

Currently myself on the District side and one other person on the developers side oversee the agronomy plans for each of these contracted Executive golf course maintenance companies based on soil test, contract requirements, and past histories. Ultimately the companies are responsible however to enact these plans thru their superintendents and any repairs are expensed to their companies. Many of the companies use the extension services, USGA and local Universities here in Florida. The different companies also have Doctorates of plant pathology, and turf biologist on staff such as Dr Barry Troutman and Dr Todd Burnell for whom both have visited these and other courses in The Villages.

The course conditions after this winter were not visible with over seed masking Bermuda issues from the winter that became more pronounced this spring with less than favorable conditions. Much of our current conditioning was caused by trying to manage two grass species in the same environment thru the warm winter wet months with full capacity amounts of play. Some superintendents were more successful than others based on timing when seed was installed, experience with over seed, the soil types and even the age of the greens.

The maintenance companies have made several changes to personal and their management teams in all these areas. In the case of Saddlebrook and Hawks the superintendent has been replaced this month. They are working every day to repair and we as a group have been closing courses to help speed recovery along. Sometimes we do not close two courses in the same area because we want everyone to have the ability to play in their perspective neighborhoods. When we get two courses in the same area in less than favorable conditions they are perceived as not caring or inability to manage but this is far from the truth. Today we have scheduled a course closure on June the 6th for SaddleBrook leaving Hawks open for play until Saddlebrook is recovered. At this time the maintenance company Valley Crest will be installing a new green on #2 Saddlebrook and working on all other areas to reopen as soon as they recover. After this closure at Saddlebrook if Hawks hasn’t fully recovered while open we will close it next. All other areas we expect to see good playing conditions return after the 21 days of aeration scheduled.

Please accept our apologizes and please be patient all groups are working due diligently for the return of good playing conditions.

Eric Van Gorder
Director of Executive Golf Maintenance

[alancusa]

Total BS!!!!!

[ddharrold]

And you know that how?????
It's so easy to spit out one-liners, it's something totally different to share informed content.

[Mleeja]

Total BS!!!!!

And you know this how? What is the reason and solution? Engage your brain before, in this case, engaging your fingers.

[golf2140]

Thank you for posting. Did the same thing happen to the expert at Palmer?

[ddharrold]

Thank you for posting. Did the same thing happen to the expert at Palmer?
Can't address Palmer.
If you care to inquire go to Golf The Villages (http://www.golfthevillages.com/) and scroll all the way to the bottom and look for Contact Us. I've communicated with this office several times - always in a positive manner - and have ALWAYS received a timely, thorough and complete reply.

[waynet]

The only issue I have is this is not the first time that our courses have been awful. Transition for 10 months good for 2 months. And how about the novel idea to switch to the newer grasses that do not need alot of the maintenance issues he talks about.

[Bogie Shooter]

Total BS!!!!!

That so intelligent.

[Challenger]

Total BS!!!!!

How about you give us some factual backup to support your thoughtful analysis.

[westcoast]

I appreciate Eric responding with an explanation and what is being done to correct it.

[dbussone]

Ddharrold - thanks for taking the time to share the response.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[bagboy]

This site gives one a little better understanding of overseeding http://www.aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu

If the link doesn't work, you can type it in, or Google it.

[alwann]

As far as the executive courses go, you get what you pay for, and most pay little or nothing.

The executive courses will always suffer because they get too much play. Even now, in the so-called low season, they are still crowded. "Free golf for life" was a good sales strategy 20 years ago. Now, with 80,000-plus owners and more on the way, I'm not so sure that strategy makes sense with respect to the health and maintenance of the executive courses.

We should expect the norm to be "in poor condition" and live with it, unless the number of rounds played is reduced or more executive courses are built to handle the increasing number of golfers (many of them beginners) moving here.

[westcoast]

Cant agree with you on that. All greens get about the same amount of play, only some are bad.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Everything stated in that e-mail is completely reasonable. What is not reasonable, IMHO, is that the maintenance for these course is contracted out. Companies that do this kind of contract work are more concerned with their bottom line than course conditions. Their goal is to spend as little money as possible while keeping the contract.

I would much rather see a system where we have several USGCSA head superintendents in charge of several courses with good, experienced apprentices in charge of two courses each. We would then have people on board who care about the condition of the courses and not so much their bottom line.

To me, the people in charge are taking the easy way out. With this system they have a lot less to do. They do not have to worry about managing individuals. The contracted company does all of that for them.

I got a job at a golf course for just that reason. Prior to me they had a golf course management company come in. There was a different golf professional every few months and he did almost nothing. The club members were running the club themselves. The course was in terrible condition. They hired me and a USGCSA member and within a year the course was in much better condition, the tournaments were run better, the golf shop looked good, their carts were clean and ran well.

Within three years, the course had the best greens in the area and went from a laughingstock to a place that people wanted to play.

Having people on the job that report directly to the course owners is much better than contracting services out

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

As far as the executive courses go, you get what you pay for, and most pay little or nothing.

The executive courses will always suffer because they get too much play. Even now, in the so-called low season, they are still crowded. "Free golf for life" was a good sales strategy 20 years ago. Now, with 80,000-plus owners and more on the way, I'm not so sure that strategy makes sense with respect to the health and maintenance of the executive courses.

We should expect the norm to be "in poor condition" and live with it, unless the number of rounds played is reduced or more executive courses are built to handle the increasing number of golfers (many of them beginners) moving here.

Not exactly the case. I haven't seen the budget, but f someone knows percentage of the total amenity income goes toward executive golf then you could just apply that same percentage to your amenity bill to determine how much you pay for golf.

We all pay the same amount for golf regardless of how much we play, or even if we don't play at all.

Golf is not free. Someone is paying for it.

I've played many excellent golf courses in my life that get an enormous amount of play and many have been in at least reasonable, if not excellent condition. Pebble Beach comes to mind. It s one of the most played golf courses in the world and I've never seen it in terrible shape.

If a golf course is getting a lot of play then they are getting a lot of income. In the case of the executive courses, the income comes from those 80,000 plus households.

Also, as The Villages has grown, more courses have been added so I don't know that they are getting any more play then they did twenty years ago.

[Mikeod]

Not exactly the case. I haven't seen the budget, but f someone knows percentage of the total amenity income goes toward executive golf then you could just apply that same percentage to your amenity bill to determine how much you pay for golf.

We all pay the same amount for golf regardless of how much we play, or even if we don't play at all.

Golf is not free. Someone is paying for it.

I've played many excellent golf courses in my life that get an enormous amount of play and many have been in at least reasonable, if not excellent condition. Pebble Beach comes to mind. It s one of the most played golf courses in the world and I've never seen it in terrible shape.

If a golf course is getting a lot of play then they are getting a lot of income. In the case of the executive courses, the income comes from those 80,000 plus households.

Also, as The Villages has grown, more courses have been added so I don't know that they are getting any more play then they did twenty years ago.
C'mon Doc. Comparing Pebble Beach to TV? $495 greens fee! If played as frequently as you describe, imagine the resources they have available to keep the course in the condition you experienced. BTW, when I played PB, it was in the middle of a drought like exists now in CA. They had no grass on the fairway and were watering the greens and tees only. No reduction in fees, though. Plus, the quality of player who goes to PB is far superior to the beginners and novice players who frequent TV courses. Makes a big difference in maintenance costs.

The number of rounds played in TV has increased significantly every year, surpassing 2 million in 2015. Although they have added courses, those of us who have been here for 10 years or more will confirm that it gets harder every year to get desired tee times on desired courses. Each year you have to increase the number of courses and widen the time range on requests in order to avoid being shut out.

The organization of the maintenance program in TV is exactly as it should be. If we follow your logic in the previous post, then any large company or corporation should not utilize suppliers or sub-contractors and should do it all themselves. With all the courses to be maintained, it only makes sense to contract it out to companies that do this as their sole business activity. This is not the easy way out. It is the most efficient. Eric and GMS manage the contractors rather than manage the mass of individuals that would be required by your example.

Every year we go through "Miserable May" as the courses recover from the high season play and overseeding followed by the necessary aeration. And every year they get back to good condition.

[ddharrold]

The only issue I have is this is not the first time that our courses have been awful. Transition for 10 months good for 2 months. And how about the novel idea to switch to the newer grasses that do not need alot of the maintenance issues he talks about.
Obviously I can't answer your concerns or questions. I suggest you inquire of the appropriate Villages Golf Course Administration group. They can be reached by email via GolfTheVillages.com
(http://www.golfthevillages.com/) and then scroll to the bottom of the page and click on Contact Us.

[kcrazorbackfan]

As far as the executive courses go, you get what you pay for, and most pay little or nothing.

The executive courses will always suffer because they get too much play. Even now, in the so-called low season, they are still crowded. "Free golf for life" was a good sales strategy 20 years ago. Now, with 80,000-plus owners and more on the way, I'm not so sure that strategy makes sense with respect to the health and maintenance of the executive courses.

We should expect the norm to be "in poor condition" and live with it, unless the number of rounds played is reduced or more executive courses are built to handle the increasing number of golfers (many of them beginners) moving here.

I totally agree on your statement "you get what you pay for". I really wish that "free executive golf" would be done away with; start charging greens fees for the execs - that would probably stop enough play to where the execs could be closed on a weekly rotating basis to get them back in shape and keep them in shape. Do I care that charging executive green fees would stop people from playing golf? Nope. It would stop a lot of the unfilled divots, unrepaired ball marks and unraked traps.

[waynet]

for ddharold...I have tried many times to get an answer why not new grasses and have NEVER got an answer. Doc is correct in everything he says. Mike will always defend the ancient practices of maintaining these courses. Palmer is still closed, anyone know why or is it still a secret. Only May are you kidding me? Our Champ courses are not good and rarely are good. Played World Woods today now thats what we should expect all the time not excuse after excuse.

[Polar Bear]

...I really wish that "free executive golf" would be done away with; start charging greens fees for the execs...

That would really upset me if I thought there was any chance of it happening.

Almost all courses go through occasional rough stretches. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the current system.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

C'mon Doc. Comparing Pebble Beach to TV? $495 greens fee! If played as frequently as you describe, imagine the resources they have available to keep the course in the condition you experienced. BTW, when I played PB, it was in the middle of a drought like exists now in CA. They had no grass on the fairway and were watering the greens and tees only. No reduction in fees, though. Plus, the quality of player who goes to PB is far superior to the beginners and novice players who frequent TV courses. Makes a big difference in maintenance costs.

The number of rounds played in TV has increased significantly every year, surpassing 2 million in 2015. Although they have added courses, those of us who have been here for 10 years or more will confirm that it gets harder every year to get desired tee times on desired courses. Each year you have to increase the number of courses and widen the time range on requests in order to avoid being shut out.

The organization of the maintenance program in TV is exactly as it should be. If we follow your logic in the previous post, then any large company or corporation should not utilize suppliers or sub-contractors and should do it all themselves. With all the courses to be maintained, it only makes sense to contract it out to companies that do this as their sole business activity. This is not the easy way out. It is the most efficient. Eric and GMS manage the contractors rather than manage the mass of individuals that would be required by your example.

Every year we go through "Miserable May" as the courses recover from the high season play and overseeding followed by the necessary aeration. And every year they get back to good condition.

The comparison is valid depending on the income and the acreage being maintained. And executive golf course wth virtually no fairways and only nine greens should cost much, much less than an eighteen hole par 72 course.

I agree, I've seen Pebble during a drought and they water and maintain the greens only. With our executive courses they don't have much more than the greens to maintain. It's the greens that are the problem here.

As I stated before, if we knew what percentage of the total amenity fees collected goes toward exec golf, we would know how much we each pay. Unless we know that number, we don't know what we pay to play the execs.

While I can certainly understand courses getting damaged from a high amount of play, like I said, if they're getting that much play, they should be getting more income. And there is no excuse for the condition of the greens that I've seen. Like I've stated so far I've seen deplorable and horrendous. No amount of play should result in the condition that we currently have.

I don't know the income or budgets for these courses, but I still maintain that having the maintenance done in house rather than contracting it out would yield better results.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I totally agree on your statement "you get what you pay for". I really wish that "free executive golf" would be done away with; start charging greens fees for the execs - that would probably stop enough play to where the execs could be closed on a weekly rotating basis to get them back in shape and keep them in shape. Do I care that charging executive green fees would stop people from playing golf? Nope. It would stop a lot of the unfilled divots, unrepaired ball marks and unraked traps.

First of all, that would entail breaking a contract with 120,000 people. I think that the developer might have a bit of a problem unless they lowered the amenity fee by a percentage equal to the percentage that goes toward these courses.

Secondly, as I have stated with so many more residents TV is gaining more in amenity fees so they should be able to budget more for proper maintenance.

It seems that we have hundreds, if not thousands of employees in TV that do very little. Guards at some of the gates, some rec centers have more people than needed, greeters in the sales departments, yet, the golf courses are not being maintained.

I don't know the income and the budgets so I won't jump to any conclusions, but it's obvious that some people not doing their jobs or money is being spent in the wrong places.

I'd like to see annual dues and no green fees at some of the country clubs. That is how most private and semi-private clubs work up north. We're told that we're members at all of these country clubs but what does that really mean? We get to pay the same green fee as everyone else. We get to eat in the restaurants that are pen to the general public? It's very easy to give away something that is worthless.

[Polar Bear]

...I'd like to see annual dues and no green fees at some of the country clubs...

Agree. At least as an option.

[Bogie Shooter]

for ddharold...I have tried many times to get an answer why not new grasses and have NEVER got an answer. Doc is correct in everything he says. Mike will always defend the ancient practices of maintaining these courses. Palmer is still closed, anyone know why or is it still a secret. Only May are you kidding me? Our Champ courses are not good and rarely are good. Played World Woods today now thats what we should expect all the time not excuse after excuse.

Are there homes for sale there?

[JGVillages]

C'mon Doc. Comparing Pebble Beach to TV? $495 greens fee! If played as frequently as you describe, imagine the resources they have available to keep the course in the condition you experienced. BTW, when I played PB, it was in the middle of a drought like exists now in CA. They had no grass on the fairway and were watering the greens and tees only. No reduction in fees, though. Plus, the quality of player who goes to PB is far superior to the beginners and novice players who frequent TV courses. Makes a big difference in maintenance costs.

The number of rounds played in TV has increased significantly every year, surpassing 2 million in 2015. Although they have added courses, those of us who have been here for 10 years or more will confirm that it gets harder every year to get desired tee times on desired courses. Each year you have to increase the number of courses and widen the time range on requests in order to avoid being shut out.

The organization of the maintenance program in TV is exactly as it should be. If we follow your logic in the previous post, then any large company or corporation should not utilize suppliers or sub-contractors and should do it all themselves. With all the courses to be maintained, it only makes sense to contract it out to companies that do this as their sole business activity. This is not the easy way out. It is the most efficient. Eric and GMS manage the contractors rather than manage the mass of individuals that would be required by your example.

Every year we go through "Miserable May" as the courses recover from the high season play and overseeding followed by the necessary aeration. And every year they get back to good condition.

Only "Miserable May"??? The courses have been in "Transition" since mid-March when the warmer weather allowed the Bermuda to start to come in and take back over from the winter overseed. Now we have Miserable May Aerification with Greens recovering slowly, usually decent by July. Then we have "Miserable August" Aerification with decent recovery expected by October, then it is time to overseed. With a good overseed recovery may come late in the year. I say "good overseed" because in the 10+ years here I have seen only a few. Then hopefully a few months of decent conditions and we are back to spring transition again. I have been a member at 2 Florida Golf Clubs prior to moving here. The last was Riverwood GC in Port Charlotte. We went through a similar annual ritual as described above until (13 years ago) we changed to Champion grass for our Greens. No overseeding and transition issues. These modern grasses have been available for decades, and new and improve strains have been developed on an ongoing basis. Why The Villages decides to stay with "old" grass technology, when at least 6 of the 12 Championship Courses could have grass that does not require overseeding, is curious.

[rubicon]

Well some of you posters must have forgotten the tagline associated with moving to "The Villages" "Live like a millionaire on your retirement savings"............................................

Some of you must have forgotten that the agreement "amenities bundled together for a set amenities fee (PR)that only went up with a CPI increase and/or as AFDR which is the max amenity + CPI. all homeowners (sites) pay an amenity fee."

To even suggest charging a green fee for executive courses and/or an annual fee for championships courses is proposing a Faustian Bargain.

Clearly either because of pressures within or greed or both the tension between amenity fees and amenities is already too taut

As stated all amenities are bundled. You don't get to choose what amenities you want and pay for each separately. Use or lose

I have some questions concerning amenitiy fees that I addressed to both the POA and the District and never received an acceptable response.

My advice is tread very careful on this subject ( (amenity fees) and pay close attention to the politics surrounding its application.

As to the executive golf courses this same situation has existed every spring for the 10 years I have lived here despite the fact that people were fired and new contractors hired.

Personal Best Regards:

[waynet]

JG Villages I totally agree with all you said. The shame is it would not cost them any extra money to convert.

[Mikeod]

for ddharold...I have tried many times to get an answer why not new grasses and have NEVER got an answer. Doc is correct in everything he says. Mike will always defend the ancient practices of maintaining these courses. Palmer is still closed, anyone know why or is it still a secret. Only May are you kidding me? Our Champ courses are not good and rarely are good. Played World Woods today now thats what we should expect all the time not excuse after excuse.
LOL. If you ask Eric about me, he will tell you I don't always defend the maintenance practices here. I am on a committee that meets with Eric as well as GMS representatives on a quarterly basis to discuss maintenance of the executive courses. And we are not complimentary a lot of the time. Interesting that TPC Sawgrass is replacing the ultradwarf bermuda on all its greens this summer. The information I got at The Players is that they are putting in a dwarf bermuda. The course is closed until November to get it done. That's a lot of revenue lost, so they must have a good agronomic reason for doing it.

I enjoy our discussions and appreciate and understand your concerns. What I tend to respond to are hyperbolic posts that unfairly, IMO, denigrate the efforts I know for a fact are being made to maintain the courses. We can certainly discuss how effective they are.

[waynet]

Mike is correct TPC is replacing greens. They are going from Miniverde Bermuda to Tifeagle Bermuda because it will hold up to damp ,cold winters better. Interesting is that they will reopen for play in November so closed for 6 months. How long was Tierra closed for or the Hacienda 9 or the Glenview 9 and really did anyone notice a difference?

[PennBF]

I once was involved in a very elite semi private course which was having some problem. One of the "wealthy" members said "either we are not giving you enough money to keep the course in good conditions or you (Greens Keeper) are not capable of maintaining the course, which is it". This seem to net the problem here. Having said this I believe it is an Organizational Management Problem which may tie somewhat to a money problem? I had the opportunity to view some of the Management structures and came away believing they do have a serious organizational problem which probably rolls into a course maintenance problem? This does not rule out a "budget" concern but makes it less likely to be the driving force to cause such disgraceful conditions as seen with the Palmer Course. Some questions would be, what role do the individual course Pro's play in Management, selections, etc? How often are there audits of the process/procedures timing and coverages?, What is the process for escalating concerns and issues? Can staff
bring issues forward without concerns of being punished by management? Are there published rules for maintenance and who is responsible to review the rules, the contents and auditing to ensure they are being followed? These are just a few of the management concerns that should be in place.:(

[ddharrold]

I once was advised that as soon as you realize the horse is dead it's time to dismount. That is the conclusion I've come to regarding this particular topic thus I'm closing it here and it's sister post on the Executive Golf Conditions thread.
Thanks to everyone that posted positive thoughts and to those who made suggestions for improving. I'm quite confident that The Villages Golf Course Administration department does NOT read anything on Talk of The Villages. They can be reached at Golf The Villages (http://www.golfthevillages.com/) and then scroll to the bottom and look for CONTACT US.