Active Shooter Awareness Message For Citizens

[DeanFL]

Heard this on news radio this morning. Even though we live in our Bubble, and some of "our guys & gals" are armed - important info for all of us for protection in the event we are faced with an active shooter/terrorist etc. Since 9/11 I have had in the back of my mind to plan to attack back if confronted and try not to cower and become an easy target. Can only hope, if in that situation, that some could muster that strength..."Let's Roll"...>

Our new message for our citizens is based on the reality of today's threat. Brevard County Sheriff Wayne Ivey

BREVARD SHERIFF WAYNE IVEY 4: AWARENESS, AVOID, ARM YOURSELF, ATTACK

link>

Brevard County Sheriff Wayne Ivey Revised Active Shooter Awareness Message For Citizens | (http://spacecoastdaily.com/2016/06/brevard-county-sheriff-wayne-ivey-revises-active-shooter-awareness-message-for-citizens/)

[Taltarzac725]

Heard this on news radio this morning. Even though we live in our Bubble, and some of "our guys & gals" are armed - important info for all of us for protection in the event we are faced with an active shooter/terrorist etc. Since 9/11 I have had in the back of my mind to plan to attack back if confronted and try not to cower and become an easy target. Can only hope, if in that situation, that some could muster that strength..."Let's Roll"...>

Our new message for our citizens is based on the reality of today's threat. Brevard County Sheriff Wayne Ivey

BREVARD SHERIFF WAYNE IVEY 4: AWARENESS, AVOID, ARM YOURSELF, ATTACK

link>

Brevard County Sheriff Wayne Ivey Revised Active Shooter Awareness Message For Citizens | (http://spacecoastdaily.com/2016/06/brevard-county-sheriff-wayne-ivey-revises-active-shooter-awareness-message-for-citizens/)


I saw that too. It could happen here in the Villages. Very improbable but it is best to be prepared.

The local police are well-armed and well-trained too. Calling 911 should be people's first thought in these situations and running for it.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

It's not enough to simply arm yourself. Every responsible gun owner needs to do training. Go to the range on a regular basis and do situational training on a simulator. Practice often.

[John_W]

In 2011 there was about 900,000 concealed weapons permits in Florida. Since this Orlando shooting I have read it is now 1.8 million. That's double in just 5 years. With a population of 20 million, roughly one in every ten has a concealed weapon in Florida.

The problem with the Orlando shooting was it happened in a place that serves mainly alcohol, off limits to those who carry a concealed weapon. Had it happen at one of the squares, a regular restaurant or movie theater here in TV, I think the outcome would of been different. In fact, I always believe that's why we haven't had a mass shooting in Florida until this latest. In the past we've had mass shootings in states with strict gun laws such as California #1 and Connecticut #5.

[Taltarzac725]

It's not enough to simply arm yourself. Every responsible gun owner needs to do training. Go to the range on a regular basis and do situational training on a simulator. Practice often.

That is needed. People with concealed weapons permits should be proficient with these arms.

I would probably shoot myself in the foot if I carried a pistol or somewhere much worse.

[MikeV]

Good information and a civil discussion. Nice.

[JoelJohnson]

Years ago an Massachusetts officer killed a black man while the black man was holding another man at bay in a car. Upon going to that black man it turned out to be a fellow officer that the officer worked with and knew very well.

How could this happen? In the heat of the moment the officer, who was veteran officer, lost focus. And this is not the first time that kind of thing has happened.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't have guns, as far as I'm concerned you can have as many as you want.

What I am concerned with is that at the moment of engagement, a good man with a gun may make a fatal mistake and shoot the wrong person.

When Gabby Gifford was shot, one of the "good guys with a gun" came upon the scene and, according to his own account, "came within seconds of shooting an innocent person".

A few weeks ago in Texas, a man with his wife and child saw another man arguing with a girl, then the guy took out a gun and shot the women. The guy left and got into his car. The father went out with his, legal gun, and stood in front of the guys car and ordered him to get out. The guy got out and shot the father dead.

If a well trained officer can make a mistake, what's makes anyone think that they, even with some training, can do better.

If there is no choice, in other words there is no place to retreat to or your own family is in direct danger, then if you can, take the chance. But remember, your family would rather have a live chicken then a dead duck.

[dewilson58]

In 2011 there was about 900,000 concealed weapons permits in Florida. Since this Orlando shooting I have read it is now 1.8 million. That's double in just 5 years. With a population of 20 million, roughly one in every ten has a concealed weapon in Florida.

.

Plus all the out of state permits that now live in Florida.

[Gpsma]

My brothers neighbor shot himself in the leg last year with his glock.

Like drivers licenses, some seniors in the villages need to realize when to give up their guns.

[John_W]

...If a well trained officer can make a mistake, what's makes anyone think that they, even with some training, can do better...

The only mistake the police made was he didn't recognize the other officer. Same thing happens in the miliary with friendly fire.

How much actual training do soldiers receive in basic training to handle a weapon and recognize a situation. Of course those with advanced training in infantry and similar fields, but how about the soldiers in peripheral positions thrust into close combat situations. You can say they had inadequate training, but you can train forever and not face every situation.

You want to use logic, but most of these situations are controlled by emotions. You can't regulate emotions, you can practice for it, but no one knows until they're actually faced with a situation.

[Taltarzac725]

The only mistake the police made was he didn't recognize the other officer. Same thing happens in the miliary with friendly fire.

How much actual training do soldiers receive in basic training to handle a weapon and recognize a situation. Of course those with advanced training in infantry and similar fields, but how about the soldiers in peripheral positions thrust into close combat situations. You can say they had inadequate training, but you can train forever and not face every situation.

You want to use logic, but most of these situations are controlled by emotions. You can't regulate emotions, you can practice for it, but no one knows until they're actually faced with a situation.

Great point. Some officers probably never draw their weapons in some communities. Simulated exercises probably help a little bit though as they would at least prompt some of the fight or flee emotions.

[dbussone]

My brothers neighbor shot himself in the leg last year with his glock.

Like drivers licenses, some seniors in the villages need to realize when to give up their guns.



And others need to practice on a regular basis. Using the range the one and only time you apply for your permit is just not enough. When I go to practice every once in awhile I like to ask the range officer to observe me for opportunities to improve. It's like golf, having a little professional oversight goes a long way.


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[rjm1cc]

In 2011 there was about 900,000 concealed weapons permits in Florida. Since this Orlando shooting I have read it is now 1.8 million. That's double in just 5 years. With a population of 20 million, roughly one in every ten has a concealed weapon in Florida.

The problem with the Orlando shooting was it happened in a place that serves mainly alcohol, off limits to those who carry a concealed weapon. Had it happen at one of the squares, a regular restaurant or movie theater here in TV, I think the outcome would of been different. In fact, I always believe that's why we haven't had a mass shooting in Florida until this latest. In the past we've had mass shootings in states with strict gun laws such as California #1 and Connecticut #5.
I think you will find that a lot of your neighbors have had training in the use of a gun. I know in my neighborhood we have a couple of former special services members, a CIA person and several policemen.

[villagetinker]

There are lots of valid points above. I wonder if a non-lethal device (gun with plastic/rubber bullets, bean bag round, etc, stun gun, or similar) would be sufficient to stun the shooter, and allow lots of people to overpower the shooter. This keeps the person responding to a shooter from killing someone by accident, but provides a possible way to overpower a shooter.
I do have concerns about the potential for accidents if there are lots of armed senior citizens running around with loaded guns.

Please do not shoot (pun intended) me, this is just my humble opinion.

[Barefoot]

I wonder if a non-lethal device (gun with plastic/rubber bullets, bean bag round, etc, stun gun, or similar) would be sufficient to stun the shooter, and allow lots of people to overpower the shooter. This keeps the person responding to a shooter from killing someone by accident, but provides a possible way to overpower a shooter.
I do have concerns about the potential for accidents if there are lots of armed senior citizens running around with loaded guns.
Interesting comment re non-lethal devices.

[looneycat]

There are lots of valid points above. I wonder if a non-lethal device (gun with plastic/rubber bullets, bean bag round, etc, stun gun, or similar) would be sufficient to stun the shooter, and allow lots of people to overpower the shooter. This keeps the person responding to a shooter from killing someone by accident, but provides a possible way to overpower a shooter.
I do have concerns about the potential for accidents if there are lots of armed senior citizens running around with loaded guns.

Please do not shoot (pun intended) me, this is just my humble opinion.

are you willing to risk your life on it? many people maintain control when engaged with non lethal methods and continue shooting/fighting.

[outlaw]

Years ago an Massachusetts officer killed a black man while the black man was holding another man at bay in a car. Upon going to that black man it turned out to be a fellow officer that the officer worked with and knew very well.

How could this happen? In the heat of the moment the officer, who was veteran officer, lost focus. And this is not the first time that kind of thing has happened.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't have guns, as far as I'm concerned you can have as many as you want.

What I am concerned with is that at the moment of engagement, a good man with a gun may make a fatal mistake and shoot the wrong person.

When Gabby Gifford was shot, one of the "good guys with a gun" came upon the scene and, according to his own account, "came within seconds of shooting an innocent person".

A few weeks ago in Texas, a man with his wife and child saw another man arguing with a girl, then the guy took out a gun and shot the women. The guy left and got into his car. The father went out with his, legal gun, and stood in front of the guys car and ordered him to get out. The guy got out and shot the father dead.

If a well trained officer can make a mistake, what's makes anyone think that they, even with some training, can do better.

If there is no choice, in other words there is no place to retreat to or your own family is in direct danger, then if you can, take the chance. But remember, your family would rather have a live chicken then a dead duck.

Are you suggesting, since mistakes can happen in a chaotic life or death situation, we should disarm ourselves and our police?

[outlaw]

The only mistake the police made was he didn't recognize the other officer. Same thing happens in the miliary with friendly fire.

How much actual training do soldiers receive in basic training to handle a weapon and recognize a situation. Of course those with advanced training in infantry and similar fields, but how about the soldiers in peripheral positions thrust into close combat situations. You can say they had inadequate training, but you can train forever and not face every situation.

You want to use logic, but most of these situations are controlled by emotions. You can't regulate emotions, you can practice for it, but no one knows until they're actually faced with a situation.

And probably, the leo that was shot did not identify himself as a leo. too much left out of the story to know what happened, really.

[outlaw]

There are lots of valid points above. I wonder if a non-lethal device (gun with plastic/rubber bullets, bean bag round, etc, stun gun, or similar) would be sufficient to stun the shooter, and allow lots of people to overpower the shooter. This keeps the person responding to a shooter from killing someone by accident, but provides a possible way to overpower a shooter.
I do have concerns about the potential for accidents if there are lots of armed senior citizens running around with loaded guns.

Please do not shoot (pun intended) me, this is just my humble opinion.

This is Florida; gun country. If you have concerns about a lot of citizens walking around with guns, you may have picked the wrong state in which to live.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Years ago an Massachusetts officer killed a black man while the black man was holding another man at bay in a car. Upon going to that black man it turned out to be a fellow officer that the officer worked with and knew very well.

How could this happen? In the heat of the moment the officer, who was veteran officer, lost focus. And this is not the first time that kind of thing has happened.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't have guns, as far as I'm concerned you can have as many as you want.

What I am concerned with is that at the moment of engagement, a good man with a gun may make a fatal mistake and shoot the wrong person.

When Gabby Gifford was shot, one of the "good guys with a gun" came upon the scene and, according to his own account, "came within seconds of shooting an innocent person".

A few weeks ago in Texas, a man with his wife and child saw another man arguing with a girl, then the guy took out a gun and shot the women. The guy left and got into his car. The father went out with his, legal gun, and stood in front of the guys car and ordered him to get out. The guy got out and shot the father dead.

If a well trained officer can make a mistake, what's makes anyone think that they, even with some training, can do better.

If there is no choice, in other words there is no place to retreat to or your own family is in direct danger, then if you can, take the chance. But remember, your family would rather have a live chicken then a dead duck.

So what you're saying is that if I'm in a mall and some nut starts shooting people, I shouldn't try to shoot him because I might miss and hit an innocent bystander? Did you consider that the innocent bystander is probably going to be shot by this guy? It's a chance that has to be taken. If I were to miss with a shot and hit an innocent bystander but also hit the perpetrator several other people might be saved.

I believe that if one fifth of the people in the Pulse night club had been armed, fewer people would have been shot and fewer people would have died. Would there have been some friendly fire casualties? Maybe, but there also might have been 70 or 80 people who did not get shot.

The guy in Texas made a mistake. When you see someone shoot someone else, you are within the law to shoot that person. The fact that he had just shot two people and is still holding the gun represents a threat to you. You never use a gun to hold someone prisoner. If you take out your gun in that situation, you shoot it.

[ColdNoMore]

All too many CCW permit holders harbor secret fantasies, of one day playing Dirty Harry and being a 'hero.' :oops:

While I have one, I almost never carry (especially in TV).

Why?

Because I know the odds of ever needing it, are much smaller than being run over by a golf cart or hit by lightning.

A cell phone with a quick dial to 911, is actually the safest defense in almost any situation.

[outlaw]

I read that a person has a 95% chance of surviving a gun shot wound, unless it is a direct shot to the heart. I'll bet most gun control advocates AND gun owners thought guns were much more lethal than a 5% kill rate. Kind of shows the hyperbole and prejudice the media has built around the subject of guns and gun control. And, of course, this doesn't include the many, many non-lethal self defense uses of just presenting a gun.

[Sandtrap328]

So what you're saying is that if I'm in a mall and some nut starts shooting people, I shouldn't try to shoot him because I might miss and hit an innocent bystander? Did you consider that the innocent bystander is probably going to be shot by this guy? It's a chance that has to be taken. If I were to miss with a shot and hit an innocent bystander but also hit the perpetrator several other people might be saved.

I believe that if one fifth of the people in the Pulse night club had been armed, fewer people would have been shot and fewer people would have died. Would there have been some friendly fire casualties? Maybe, but there also might have been 70 or 80 people who did not get shot.

The guy in Texas made a mistake. When you see someone shoot someone else, you are within the law to shoot that person. The fact that he had just shot two people and is still holding the gun represents a threat to you. You never use a gun to hold someone prisoner. If you take out your gun in that situation, you shoot it.

Wrong! Wrong!
Imagine the Pulse nightclub at 2 a.m., strobe lights, very loud pulsating music, young people ages 19 to 35 dancing, drinking for a few hours, maybe a bit of recreational drug usage - and 70 of the 350 have loaded guns!
A few shots ring out and suddenly the inside of the club has 70 people - hyped up with alcohol, adreneline, and maybe some Ectasy - start firing in all directions in the club with fog, darkness, and strobe lights.

I almost forgot to mention that shooting on an air conditioned well lighted indoor gun range is 100 percent Different than in a dark, noisy club with strobe lights. The first thing a gun instructor should tell students that shooting in a stress situation is not at all like in a controlled atmosphere. Bullets would be flying wildly all over the place.

Sorry, Doc Boogie, that scenario is not a good one. The solution is NOT to have the AR15 type rifles or large capacity magazines available. IF Mateen had only a handgun, he could have inflicted casualities but nowhere on the scale of 49.

And the comment about not holding a person prisoner with a drawn weapon but to shoot him? In some cases, that could result in a murder charge.

[outlaw]

All too many CCW permit holders harbor secret fantasies, of one day playing Dirty Harry and being a 'hero.' :oops:

While I have one, I almost never carry (especially in TV).

Why?

Because I know the odds of ever needing it, are much smaller than being run over by a golf cart or hit by lightning.

A cell phone with a quick dial to 911, is actually the safest defense in almost any situation.

And yet you have a ccw? 911 is great for a heart attack or traffic accident; but not so great when being attacked or mugged. And don't forget to take a picture, with your smart phone, of the mugger for the police.

[outlaw]

Wrong! Wrong!
Imagine the Pulse nightclub at 2 a.m., strobe lights, very loud pulsating music, young people ages 19 to 35 dancing, drinking for a few hours, maybe a bit of recreational drug usage - and 70 of the 350 have loaded guns!
A few shots ring out and suddenly the inside of the club has 70 people - hyped up with alcohol, adreneline, and maybe some Ectasy - start firing in all directions in the club with fog, darkness, and strobe lights.

Sorry, Doc Boogie, that scenario is not a good one. The solution is NOT to have the AR15 type rifles or large capacity magazines available. IF Mateen had only a handgun, he could have inflicted casualities but nowhere on the scale of 49.

And the comment about not holding a person prisoner with a drawn weapon but to shoot him? In some cases, that could result in a murder charge.

Why do you assume law abiding gun owners are going to be drinking and using drugs because they are in a bar? Have you never heard of or known a designated driver. Do you think all people that drive to a bar, drive home drunk? If we banned AR15s, then a mass shooting occurred with a shooter using a semi auto with five 30 round magazines, then you would say we need to ban semi autos or high capacity magazines. You will never ban away murder. Sensational mass murders of the Orlando style are tragic, but totally eliminating them would do little to reduce gun crime statistics.

[ColdNoMore]

And yet you have a ccw? 911 is great for a heart attack or traffic accident; but not so great when being attacked or mugged. And don't forget to take a picture, with your smart phone, of the mugger for the police.

I have one for the sole purpose of the occasional need to be in a place where it is prudent to carry.

TV, nor a bar/nightclub/etc. are one of those places.

My previous comment still stands.

All too many CCW permit holders harbor secret fantasies, of one day playing Dirty Harry and being a 'hero.' :oops:

While I have one, I almost never carry (especially in TV).

Why?

Because I know the odds of ever needing it, are much smaller than being run over by a golf cart or hit by lightning.

:wave:

[outlaw]

I have one for the sole purpose of the occasional need to be in a place where it is prudent to carry.

TV, nor a bar/nightclub/etc. are one of those places.

My previous comment still stands.



:wave:

Why would you not think other responsible ccw holders have the same legitimate concerns about safety as you? Why do you think many others fantasize about a violent exchange of gunfire simply because they have a ccw? Your generalization of the ccw holder is insulting and shows your extreme bias towards your fellow ccw holders. You indite a whole group as Dirty Harry wannabes, then as a member of this group, claim the higher ground of reasonableness? :sad:

[Shimpy]

A cell phone with a quick dial to 911, is actually the safest defense in almost any situation.

Yep, then set back and wait 6 minutes for the average police response.

[Shimpy]

While I have one, I almost never carry (especially in TV).

Why?

Because I know the odds of ever needing it, are much smaller than being run over by a golf cart or hit by lightning.

Do you have fire insurance? I'll bet those in those situations felt that it would never happen to them also.

[Shimpy]

The solution is NOT to have the AR15 type rifles or large capacity magazines available. IF Mateen had only a handgun, he could have inflicted casualities but nowhere on the scale of 49.


It only takes about 2 seconds to drop an empty magazine and insert a fresh fully loaded one. There would have been less casualties but not by much. Problem was he was never challenged
He was in a place that sold mainly alcohol and CCW doesn't allow carry in such places.

[Sandtrap328]

Why do you assume law abiding gun owners are going to be drinking and using drugs because they are in a bar? Have you never heard of or known a designated driver. Do you think all people that drive to a bar, drive home drunk? If we banned AR15s, then a mass shooting occurred with a shooter using a semi auto with five 30 round magazines, then you would say we need to ban semi autos or high capacity magazines. You will never ban away murder. Sensational mass murders of the Orlando style are tragic, but totally eliminating them would do little to reduce gun crime statistics.

IF you had read my post, I DID say to ban high capacity magazines. IF semi-automatics were banned and ONLY bolt action was permitted, the carnage would not have happened.

As for designated drivers/shooters - forget it. Not Going to
happen!

Drugstore cowboys and Dirty Harry wannabees are ridiculous. Shooting in a controlled gun range is 100 percent different than in a stress situation. The drugstore cowboys and Dirty Harry wannabees have not had stress shooting since the 1970's and reflexes are gone.

[justjim]

I've seen a lot of alcohol consumed on the squares and on the outdoor patios around the squares. Do you think these are good places for people to be carrying firearms? Yes, there is food but not much food consumed in these places. Hopefully discretion will be the better part of valor for those that are carrying---especially those that are saving seats. Just a thought......

[ColdNoMore]

Why would you not think other responsible ccw holders have the same legitimate concerns about safety as you? Why do you think many others fantasize about a violent exchange of gunfire simply because they have a ccw? Your generalization of the ccw holder is insulting and shows your extreme bias towards your fellow ccw holders. You indite a whole group as Dirty Harry wannabes, then as a member of this group, claim the higher ground of reasonableness? :sad:

I did not "generalize" nor did I "indict a whole group."

I simply stated my opinion regarding many people I know who have a CCW permit.

[Sandtrap328]

What about the stressful circumstnces in an actual gunfight versus shooting at targets on an air conditioned range? What makes these Marshall Dillon wannabees think they would be able to perform? If they did just freeze up completely, bullets would be flying haphazardly.

Very few of these "cowboys" has fired a gun in a combat situation since at least the 1970's. That is about 50 years!

Leave the policing to the police. The Villages DOES NOT NEED wannabees carrying pistols and getting a few drinks into themselves. You mean well but no thanks!

[Cathy H]

we have lost our way. all this chatter about the willingness to shoot someone. if you carry a gun you must be ready to use it. how sad.

[ColdNoMore]

What about the stressful circumstnces in an actual gunfight versus shooting at targets on an air conditioned range? What makes these Marshall Dillon wannabees think they would be able to perform? If they did just freeze up completely, bullets would be flying haphazardly.

Very few of these "cowboys" has fired a gun in a combat situation since at least the 1970's. That is about 50 years!

Leave the policing to the police. The Villages DOES NOT NEED wannabees carrying pistols and getting a few drinks into themselves. You mean well but no thanks!

:agree:

[goodtimesintv]

Ohio legalized concealed-carry weapons in bars in 2011.

There's a reason you've probably never heard that. The reason would be..... it's not been a problem!

"A year after the sound and fury over a state law allowing concealed guns in bars and restaurants, there has been silence.

Almost no incidents have been reported involving concealed-carry permit holders, and there has been no spike in violence as predicted by some opponents concerned about the volatile mix of alcohol and guns....."

Guns in bars | One year later: ‘Carry’ fear silenced | The Columbus Dispatch (http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/09/30/carry-fear-silenced.html)

[Chi-Town]

Ohio legalized concealed-carry weapons in bars in 2011.

There's a reason you've probably never heard that. The reason would be..... it's not been a problem!

"A year after the sound and fury over a state law allowing concealed guns in bars and restaurants, there has been silence.

Almost no incidents have been reported involving concealed-carry permit holders, and there has been no spike in violence as predicted by some opponents concerned about the volatile mix of alcohol and guns....."

Guns in bars | One year later: �Carry� fear silenced | The Columbus Dispatch (http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/09/30/carry-fear-silenced.html)

Sometimes it's hard to control your emotions during a heated moment in a bar. Maybe open carry helps......

For a few dollars more - Smoker - YouTube (https://youtu.be/kv0b9TxAtG4)

[Barefoot]

Leave the policing to the police. The Villages DOES NOT NEED wannabees carrying pistols and getting a few drinks into themselves. You mean well but no thanks!
:agree:

[Chatbrat]

I carry, my weapon has a laser sight, it helps take out the emotion, & guarantees accuracy. bY the way 10years ago I out shot my local swat team in an hostage scenario game , when I lived in NC

The real difference is, in a bad situation, you might be dodging bullets. If you can carry, CARRY--and make sure you have proper insurance and keep your mouth shut until your lawyer is present.

[HimandMe]

When stopped by a policeman who was just checking vehicles, he saw hubby's gun permit and asked if he was packing. I said no I don't like guns and the officer looked at me sternly and said I should let him....things happen.

[Chatbrat]

Just remember police are minutes away, when seconds count.

[graciegirl]

///

[Carl in Tampa]

Deleted duplicate post.

[Carl in Tampa]

Outlaw and ColdNoMore are illustrations of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's essay on Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs.

It's too long for me to go into here, but I will post a link. One of the main points of the essay is that people who go out unarmed in public are Sheep. He is not judgmental about the Sheep, but points out that they are at the mercy of Wolves in he absence of Sheepdogs.

Note that not all police officers are Sheepdogs. Many choose not to go armed when they are off duty. The most telling paragraph in the essay follows:

"If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be �on� 24/7 for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... �Baa.�

As for me..........."Arf."


On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs (http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm)

[Taltarzac725]

I wonder how many bullets were fired in the OK Corral gun battle and how many of those hit something?

And these were six shooters, shotguns and maybe a few other guns with very limited capacity.

[outlaw]

What about the stressful circumstnces in an actual gunfight versus shooting at targets on an air conditioned range? What makes these Marshall Dillon wannabees think they would be able to perform? If they did just freeze up completely, bullets would be flying haphazardly.

Very few of these "cowboys" has fired a gun in a combat situation since at least the 1970's. That is about 50 years!

Leave the policing to the police. The Villages DOES NOT NEED wannabees carrying pistols and getting a few drinks into themselves. You mean well but no thanks!

You do realize that most leos have never fired their weapon in the line of duty? Why do you think leos have any more training under fire than a serious ccw holder? I think you have been watching too many cop shows.

[outlaw]

Outlaw and ColdNoMore are illustrations of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's essay on Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs.

It's too long for me to go into here, but I will post a link. One of the main points of the essay is that people who go out unarmed in public are Sheep. He is not judgmental about the Sheep, but points out that they are at the mercy of Wolves in he absence of Sheepdogs.

Note that not all police officers are Sheepdogs. Many choose not to go armed when they are off duty. The most telling paragraph in the essay follows:

"If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be �on� 24/7 for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... �Baa.�

As for me..........."Arf."


On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs (http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm)

No Gracie, I'm not a wolf.

[Carl in Tampa]

I wonder how many bullets were fired in the OK Corral gun battle and how many of those hit something?

And these were six shooters, shotguns and maybe a few other guns with very limited capacity.

You enjoy research. You could probably get it pretty close.

There are some fairly detailed accounts on the Internet, including autopsy and wound reports. There's probably a pretty good count of how many rounds were fired.

It could be interesting.

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1244190

[dbussone]

///

[dbussone]

You have watched "Sniper" too many times.



Weapons for police officers, only. Thank you for your service - but your service is no longer required.



Know that you speak for yourself., or (I suspect) a small minority. There are plenty of us who are happy to have armed, retired, LEOs and military amidst us, in addition to those of us with permits.


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[Carl in Tampa]

You do realize that most leos have never fired their weapon in the line of duty? Why do you think leos have any more training under fire than a serious ccw holder? I think you have been watching too many cop shows.

Let's be very thankful that most LEOs have not had to fire their weapon in the line of duty. But many of the larger agencies, my old Sheriff's Office among them, do a lot to make the training stressful.

For me this included a "Live Fire House" where we entered as teams and engaged multiple targets with live ammunition, with some risk to each other. We also had a "Hogan's Alley" where you moved down a "street" and encountered both "bad guys" and "innocent civilians." We entered a "dark house" where the target could hardly be discerned. And of course all of this shooting was timed, and affected the score.

We had an interactive training room where scenarios were projected on a hit sensitive screen. It's called a "shoot/don't shoot" decision making drill, but if you wait too long you get shot by the bad guy.

And, most stressful of all, we dressed in armor, with a full face mask, and engaged each other with low velocity plastic bullets. These bullets would break the skin if bare skin was struck. They also left a blue mark wherever they hit.

Part of becoming a Hostage Negotiator required that I stand downrange within eighteen inches of a "bad guy" target while a sniper shot it when I gave the signal.

My Secret Service training included shooting after a hard run, and in conditions that were so noisy and confused that team members could not communicate with each other.

All of that being said, there are lots of civilians out there who shoot more accurately that many LEOs. And even that is not the point. The point is that if an active shooter came into any venue that I might visit, I would prefer that it be populated with Concealed Weapons carriers rather than unarmed Sheep.