Don't "dis" the doc.

[Talk Host]

I read this morning that there is a move among doctors to require patients to sign a waiver stating that the patient "will not" post negative comments about that doctor on blogs and forums like this one. The story went on to say that if the patient refuses to sign, the doctor will tell the patient to find another physician.

Patients have begun fighting back when they feel that they didn't get the care they deserved or when the doc's attitude was lousy. Doctors are feeling the pinch and they don't like it. As I understand the story, the doctors position is that comments about "service or attitude" are not a fair reflection on his or her medical skill.

To my way of thinking, they all come in the same package. Attitude, service, responsiveness, bedside manner, care, concern and medical skill are what we pay for.

You can read the full story here http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090304/ap_on_he_me/med_gagging_patients

[Bryan]

If presented with such a waiver by any doctor, I would probably sign it IF I really needed the services of that particular doctor. I would still feel like that was a minor form of blackmail - sign a waiver or I won't treat you. If things did not work out and I was unhappy with the "service", I would not hesitate to complain and post to a web site such as RateMDs.com in spite of the waiver. For one thing, if what you say (or post) is truthful and factual, you are covered (prevarications are a no-no). For another, as the referenced article pointed out, it is sort of doubtful if a doctor would even prevail in a lawsuit over this unless he could prove you lied and slandered him.

[Taltarzac]

If presented with such a waiver by any doctor, I would probably sign it IF I really needed the services of that particular doctor. I would still feel like that was a minor form of blackmail - sign a waiver or I won't treat you. If things did not work out and I was unhappy with the "service", I would not hesitate to complain and post to a web site such as RateMDs.com in spite of the waiver. For one thing, if what you say (or post) is truthful and factual, you are covered (prevarications are a no-no). For another, as the referenced article pointed out, it is sort of doubtful if a doctor would even prevail in a lawsuit over this unless he could prove you lied and slandered him.

This sounds like a contract between the patient and doctor with respect to treatment. It could be construed as an illegal contract under the freedom of speech clauses in state and the US Constitution. That would be an interesting case though about whether this kind of contract would pass constitutional muster if a patient signed this contract, then wrote something bad and the aggrieved physician sued the patient.

Looking it at this in a contractual light I do not believe the truthfulness of the statements would matter all that much.

[collie1228]

There is no constitutional right of freedom of speech between individuals. Only the government has to observe such rights. If you work for a major corporation, they have all kinds of speech restrictions that are enforceable under the law. I'm reasonably certain that the doctor's restriction is enforceable if you willingly agree in writing - but he would have a hell of a time determining who, in fact, was complaining about his service on an internet site (unless the complainer was dumb enough to use his name and address). And if the doctor, by some miracle, was able to determine who wrote the offending comment about him, I can't believe much damage could be substantiated to a jury. I'd sign the paper, and if the doctor ended up being incompetent enough to deserve a negative review, I'd do it anyway.

[serenityseeker]

I read this morning that there is a move among doctors to require patients to sign a waiver stating that the patient "will not" post negative comments about that doctor on blogs and forums like this one. The story went on to say that if the patient refuses to sign, the doctor will tell the patient to find another physician.

Patients have begun fighting back when they feel that they didn't get the care they deserved or when the doc's attitude was lousy. Doctors are feeling the pinch and they don't like it. As I understand the story, the doctors position is that comments about "service or attitude" are not a fair reflection on his or her medical skill.

To my way of thinking, they all come in the same package. Attitude, service, responsiveness, bedside manner, care, concern and medical skill are what we pay for.

You can read the full story here http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090304/ap_on_he_me/med_gagging_patients

The unfair and dangerous part of this is that anyone is able to write anything inflamatory about any physician as their "opinion". As in all other parts of life there are unreasonable people that be come disgruntled for unreasonable reasons. Defaming a physician, even if its only your "opinion" is hurtful and dangerous, and potentially damaging to professionals that deal with difficult people in some of the most difficult circumstances life has to offer. Many of these patients may in fact have emotional problems that affect their ability to give or receive communication normally, or to honestly and accurately portray the situations they deal with. Who is going to be able to tell the difference?
Should we all be held accountable? Certainly, just as the patients should (non compliance, obesity, smoking, missing appointments to just name a few). Medicine is difficult enough and has become too much of a battlefield as it is today without having to deal with sometimes wild, unfounded, and misplaced accusations. There are accepted channels to go through to deal with complaints regarding physicans, from actually sitting down to voice your concerns with the doctor to speaking with hospitals to going to the state medical board.
Let's try to remember that physicians are human too, and sometimes may have an off day and a "lousy" attitude. Our parents die, our children become sick, our patients die despite our greatests attempts, we carry the weight of a lot of peoples problems in our hearts and souls every day.
You want to "fight back"? Then do so in a fair and equitable way. Life in medicine is hard enough. Practicing today is a virtual minefield. Take a look at the statistics of the mass exodous from medicine that is gathering steam. I abhor medical professionals that do not have compassion, empathy and respect for their patients, I also know that this is a relative minority. Let's offer respect to those that sacrifice personal life and family every day for what they do, and avoid putting them in yet another defensless position.

[Talk Host]

Many of these patients may in fact have emotional problems that affect their ability to give or receive communication normally, or to honestly and accurately portray the situations they deal with.


99.9% of patients are able to give or receive communication normally. I would hate to think that doctors would label a person as "having emotional problems" just because the patient takes issue with the way they are treated. As you point out, doctors are human too and I think its important for doctors to remember than they are mere mortals.

[chelsea24]

I think this is just awful! There NO WAY I would sign a waiver like this no matter who the doctor is. They already have the "Cover For Each Other" Club.

There are tons of bad doctors out there, mostly on the golf course just when you need them! If you personally feel you have not received the treatment you deserve, they should be outed!

Well, guess we'll just have to put up Soap Boxes in the town squares. Because I would be the first to step up! Last time I looked, we still had Freedom of Speech! :ohdear:

[diskman]

I once complained to my doctor about waiting 1 1/2 hours, he told me maybe you need to find a new doctor. If i was on the internet at that time i sure as hell would have blogged it. :cus:barf

[serenityseeker]

99.9% of patients are able to give or receive communication normally. I would hate to think that doctors would label a person as "having emotional problems" just because they take issue with the way they are treated. As you point out, doctors are human too and I think its important for doctors to remember than they are mere mortals.

You may have expertise in some areas but you are way out of your element in this. Your 99.9% statistic is unfounded and and at the very minimum innacurate. Also, nowhere in my post did I suggest that anyone would be "labled" as "having emotional problems" just because they took issue with how they were treated. That is an unfair and twisted representation of what I posted. Often times when emotions run high, particualry in health care situations, physicians bear the brunt of the anger, knowing it is a normal reaction even on those occassions when the issues are beyond their control. This is part of the profession we are blessed to be in and we strive to work within it with compassion and understanding.
Most physicians are quite aware that they are "mere mortals" as they deal with mortality on an everyday basis, along with some of the tradgedy associated with it. You should take the time to spend a 36 hour or so day with a physician sometime to getter a better appreciation of what one goes through for and with their patients. Attitudes like this amounting to blanket condemnation have become part of a system that is sucking the life out of dedicated physicians everywhere. This is not a rant, just an honest recognition of the situation, backed up by thoousands of physicians.
No good and caring physician fears constructive criticism or accountability, they are among the tools we use as we strive to maintain and improve every single day. As I said above, there are several ways to with deal problems before handling it in a way that leaves no recourse for the physician, who is bound by confidentiality laws. I am not talking about about a freedom of speech issue, simply talking about mutual respect and a resonable way of handling things instead of using an Amazon or eBay type of feedback that may not be fit many of the parties and situations ultimately involved.
You recently felt that issues posted on this board were unfair and hurtful to you, both personally and potentially financially. This is likely the same type of situation that many physicians might find themselves in, but with no way to way to rectify it. I just ask that you give thought to it in the same light.
"I "pointed out" several other things in the post also, I'm dissapointed they didn't warrant some consideration also.

[serenityseeker]

I think this is just awful! There NO WAY I would sign a waiver like this no matter who the doctor is. They already have the "Cover For Each Other" Club.

There are tons of bad doctors out there, mostly on the golf course just when you need them! If you personally feel you have received the treatment you deserve, they should be outed!

Well, guess we'll just have to put up Soap Boxes in the town squares. Because I would be the first to step up! Last time I looked, we still had Freedom of Speech! :ohdear:

Chels I think the world of you from what I have come to know from these boards but I really am kind of bothered by all of the negative blanket statements. We don't all( or even most) for that matter spend our time on the golf course (kind of hard to when working 60-70 hr weeks), nor do most of us "cover" for one another. Not angry but I do feel the need to stick up for my colleagues that are so far removed from the negative characterizations. Physicians are not the enemy. By and large they are hard working people that sacrifice their own emotional and physical health, even their relationships to a degree for doing what they consider to be a privledge.
I truly wish people could spend every minute of a week or so behind the scenes, you would be shocked and overwhelmed, as we aften are.

[Talk Host]

You should take the time to spend a 36 hour or so day with a physician sometime to getter a better appreciation of what one goes through for and with their patients. .

You shouldn't automatically assume that I am without some experience in this matter.

From 1995 to 1998 I ran "MedLink" the worlds largest independent international medical and surgical referral company. I had over 200 doctors working for me and patients on three continents. I spent hours and hours and days and days with doctors and patients in countries all over the world, inlcuding the United States.

I have lectured at the famous Federov Clinic in Moscow and the Lontock Clinic in Novosibirsk, Siberia. I worked closely with the top heart surgeons in Brazil and Armenia. I have not only hosted groups of US doctors on trips abroad, I have hosted foreign doctors on educational trips to the US.

Every single day, I had a stack of applications for surgery and treatment from patients all over the world. Every single day, my staff would "try" to work with doctors and hospitals to secure treatment for these people. Many of the doctors were personal friends of mine and were a joy to work with. Some those those that I had dealings with were the most arrogant individuals I have ever met in my life.

The larger hospitals, I dealt with personally. I had a laundry list of patients who wished to be refered to a famous medical facility in Maryland. Even though I met with them face to face and received assurance that they would provide service, THEY DID NOT RETURN MY PHONE CALLS. It is my opinion that all those people in that international department at that hospital were totally incompetent.

It was me that had to contact our patients in, say, Brazil and tell them that we could not provide service for them.

After two and a half years, I walked away from the job. Not because of the patients. I am fully aware that was 11 years ago and times change.

I have a great deal of respect for some doctors.


OOPS, I forgot to mention. I spent the majority of my career in the broadcasting business. Some radio station general managers are also among some of the most arrogant individuals I have ever met. Some of the air personalities are in the same club. Probably me too.

[KathieI]

Serenity, I agree with all your posts on this subject. I appreciate all of my doctors, because without them, I wouldn't be here today. There are some that are not as intuitive as others and maybe not as friendly as others, but I research my doctors and select the ones I am most comfortable with. There are many out there that are wonderful and do not take long vacations or spend time on the golf courses, they work long and difficult hours under tremendous stress. I especially love dedicated and smart nurses, they are sometimes more attune than the doctors (and they can find veins better anyday than the doc!)

[serenityseeker]

You shouldn't automatically assume that I am without some experience in this matter.

From 1995 to 1998 I ran "MedLink" the worlds largest independent international medical and surgical referral company. I had over 200 doctors working for me and patients on three continents. I spent hours and hours and days and days with doctors and patients in countries all over the world, inlcuding the United States.

I have lectured at the famous Federov Clinic in Moscow and the Lontock Clinic in Novosibirsk, Siberia. I worked closely with the top heart surgeons in Brazil and Armenia. I have not only hosted groups of US doctors on trips abroad, I have hosted foreign doctors on educational trips to the US.

Every single day, I had a stack of applications for surgery and treatment from patients all over the world. Every single day, my staff would "try" to work with doctors and hospitals to secure treatment for these people. Many of the doctors were personal friends of mine and were a joy to work with. Some those those that I had dealings with were the most arrogant individuals I have ever met in my life.

The larger hospitals, I dealt with personally. I had a laundry list of patients who wished to be refered to a famous medical facility in Maryland. Even though I met with them face to face and received assurance that they would provide service, THEY DID NOT RETURN MY PHONE CALLS. It is my opinion that all those people in that international department at that hospital were totally incompetent.

It was me that had to contact our patients in, say, Brazil and tell them that we could not provide service for them.

After two and a half years, I walked away from the job. Not because of the patients. I am fully aware that was 11 years ago and times change.

I have a great deal of respect for some doctors.

I am well aware of your experience as noted above, and recognize that part of it give you your due respect. I thought I was being relatively clear in what I was refering to, with regard to doctor patient relationships and difficulties of not only practicing in today's environment, but the difficulties of dealing with the type of "feedback" situations described above. I have a hard time standing by as near blanket condemnations and innacurate portrayals of physicians at large are bandied about, but that is my problem.

You give me some of your experiences, let me give you some of mine.
I am the one that has to tell people they are dying.
I am the one that has to tell families there is nothing more I or anyone else can do as they become angry and frustrated and scream at me.
I am the one that has to miss ball games, dinner at home, a decent nights sleep, when things don't go as planned or a patient deteriorates (much more often than not).
I am the one that will sit with my patient whose family won't come so they don't die alone.
I am the one that will deal with upset, angry or sad families during the day while keeping my attention focused on the other 15 patients I have in the hospital.
I am the one that divides my time between the patients and families that can talk while answering 30-40 calls and pages a day, treating the heart attack in the E.R., while my patient in ICU goes into respiratory failure, and still making constant decisions by phone and with nurses.
Every day I have to work with "arrogant" administrators and insurance company representatives that are far removed the the real world of patient care, some..the most arrogant people I have ever met in my life.
I have lectured in hospitals, to medical students, and do bedside teaching with patients and families every day.
I call teaching institutions for transfer of patients and they don't return my calls. Who wants a "no-pay" patient with a rare condition that has been in my hospital for weeks and likely has many more weeks to go if he survives.
I am the one that does all of the above, tries to sort though proper billing and procedure codes each day for every patient, and attends comittee meetings that some refuse to and others dodge.
I am the one that has to make the split second decisions as someone deteriorates in front of me and pray to God my instincts and knowledge are accurate.
I am the one that will face the lawsuits EVEN if there is no malpractice invloved when the outcome is poor.
I am the one that bears the brunt of anger and frustration for long waiting times that are beyond my control in every way.
I am the one that takes care of the alcoholic in for his third admission this month for liver failure, his family having forsaken him, with him doing the same thing over and over and slowly dying but wanting to be "fixed" again. I am his last advocate, no matter my level of frustration or sadness.
I am the one that will go the home of a terminal patient so they dont have to trudge in to be seen.
I am the one stopped in the store, at the ballgame, in the restaraunt, or in the halls of the hospital to discuss personal issues and get a curbside consult.

This is a snapshot (not all inclusive) of my day. I would never recommend anyone else go into medicine in this environment without their eyes wide open, and then take great pause before proceeding. Why do I do it? Because at the end of the day I still feel it has been a privlege to be able to do nearly all that I outlined above. And you know what, there are thousands just like me, many in more demanding situations, many better at it than me. They are not all in it for the money ( a laughable thought at this point) or somehow angry because they are "feeling the pinch". They do what they do because they are blessed eonough to be able to. I just wish they got the same attention as the bad guys. As I said, all I ask is that you give the same courtesy and thought process to them that you ask for yourself.
Thank you for indulging me.

[serenityseeker]

Serenity, I agree with all your posts on this subject. I appreciate all of my doctors, because without them, I wouldn't be here today. There are some that are not as intuitive as others and maybe not as friendly as others, but I research my doctors and select the ones I am most comfortable with. There are many out there that are wonderful and do not take long vacations or spend time on the golf courses, they work long and difficult hours under tremendous stress. I especially love dedicated and smart nurses, they are sometimes more attune than the doctors (and they can find veins better anyday than the doc!)

Kathie, a BIG ditto on the nurses, and thank you for discussing the other side of the coin.

[dillywho]

I am well aware of your experience as noted above, and recognize that part of it give you your due respect. I thought I was being relatively clear in what I was refering to, with regard to doctor patient relationships and difficulties of not only practicing in today's environment, but the difficulties of dealing with the type of "feedback" situations described above. I have a hard time standing by as near blanket condemnations and innacurate portrayals of physicians at large are bandied about, but that is my problem.

You give me some of your experiences, let me give you some of mine.
I am the one that has to tell people they are dying.
I am the one that has to tell families there is nothing more I or anyone else can do as they become angry and frustrated and scream at me.
I am the one that has to miss ball games, dinner at home, a decent nights sleep, when things don't go as planned or a patient deteriorates (much more often than not).
I am the one that will sit with my patient whose family won't come so they don't die alone.
I am the one that will deal with upset, angry or sad families during the day while keeping my attention focused on the other 15 patients I have in the hospital.
I am the one that divides my time between the patients and families that can talk while answering 30-40 calls and pages a day, treating the heart attack in the E.R., while my patient in ICU goes into respiratory failure, and still making constant decisions by phone and with nurses.
Every day I have to work with "arrogant" administrators and insurance company representatives that are far removed the the real world of patient care, some..the most arrogant people I have ever met in my life.
I have lectured in hospitals, to medical students, and do bedside teaching with patients and families every day.
I call teaching institutions for transfer of patients and they don't return my calls. Who wants a "no-pay" patient with a rare condition that has been in my hospital for weeks and likely has many more weeks to go if he survives.
I am the one that does all of the above, tries to sort though proper billing and procedure codes each day for every patient, and attends comittee meetings that some refuse to and others dodge.
I am the one that has to make the split second decisions as someone deteriorates in front of me and pray to God my instincts and knowledge are accurate.
I am the one that will face the lawsuits EVEN if there is no malpractice invloved when the outcome is poor.
I am the one that bears the brunt of anger and frustration for long waiting times that are beyond my control in every way.
I am the one that takes care of the alcoholic in for his third admission this month for liver failure, his family having forsaken him, with him doing the same thing over and over and slowly dying but wanting to be "fixed" again. I am his last advocate, no matter my level of frustration or sadness.
I am the one that will go the home of a terminal patient so they dont have to trudge in to be seen.
I am the one stopped in the store, at the ballgame, in the restaraunt, or in the halls of the hospital to discuss personal issues and get a curbside consult.

This is a snapshot (not all inclusive) of my day. I would never recommend anyone else go into medicine in this environment without their eyes wide open, and then take great pause before proceeding. Why do I do it? Because at the end of the day I still feel it has been a privlege to be able to do nearly all that I outlined above. And you know what, there are thousands just like me, many in more demanding situations, many better at it than me. They are not all in it for the money ( a laughable thought at this point) or somehow angry because they are "feeling the pinch". They do what they do because they are blessed eonough to be able to. I just wish they got the same attention as the bad guys. As I said, all I ask is that you give the same courtesy and thought process to them that you ask for yourself.
Thank you for indulging me.

My mother was an RN and one of the best so I am not a stranger to the world of medicine. For those who complain about long wait times, medicine is not an in and out at your convenience profession. That same one complaining aboutthe long wait might be heard to complain that the doctor is always in a rush, doesn't take time to listen, etc. You can't have it both ways. If I am the patient taking more of the doctor's anticipated time in an office visit or have an emergency that gets him behind in his schedule, then you bet your sweet bippy that is exactly the doctor I want for my care. Serenity, you're my kind of professional and I thank you for your service, even if I don't know you personally. Maybe when we can get back to the point where doctors can be doctors and not the insurance companies, more like you will return. Medicine needs to be about the patient, not the bottom line.

[serenityseeker]

My mother was an RN and one of the best so I am not a stranger to the world of medicine. For those who complain about long wait times, medicine is not an in and out at your convenience profession. That same one complaining aboutthe long wait might be heard to complain that the doctor is always in a rush, doesn't take time to listen, etc. You can't have it both ways. If I am the patient taking more of the doctor's anticipated time in an office visit or have an emergency that gets him behind in his schedule, then you bet your sweet bippy that is exactly the doctor I want for my care. Serenity, you're my kind of professional and I thank you for your service, even if I don't know you personally. Maybe when we can get back to the point where doctors can be doctors and not the insurance companies, more like you will return. Medicine needs to be about the patient, not the bottom line.

Insightful comments dilly, thanx for the input. I realize we have oafs in the profession just like any other, but somehow there seems to be a view that physicians are mostly greedy, arrogant, and inconsiderate. The system is so completely fractured at this point that the art of medicine is rapidly being lost. Here's to letting doctors be doctors and making medicine about the patient.:beer3:

[Fourpar]

You may have expertise in some areas but you are way out of your element in this. Your 99.9% statistic is unfounded and and at the very minimum inaccurate. Also, nowhere in my post did I suggest that anyone would be "labeled" as "having emotional problems" just because they took issue with how they were treated. That is an unfair and twisted representation of what I posted. Often times when emotions run high, particualry in health care situations, physicians bear the brunt of the anger, knowing it is a normal reaction even on those occasions when the issues are beyond their control. This is part of the profession we are blessed to be in and we strive to work within it with compassion and understanding.
Most physicians are quite aware that they are "mere mortals" as they deal with mortality on an everyday basis, along with some of the tradgedy associated with it. You should take the time to spend a 36 hour or so day with a physician sometime to getter a better appreciation of what one goes through for and with their patients. Attitudes like this amounting to blanket condemnation have become part of a system that is sucking the life out of dedicated physicians everywhere. This is not a rant, just an honest recognition of the situation, backed up by thousands of physicians.
No good and caring physician fears constructive criticism or accountability, they are among the tools we use as we strive to maintain and improve every single day. As I said above, there are several ways to with deal problems before handling it in a way that leaves no recourse for the physician, who is bound by confidentiality laws. I am not talking about about a freedom of speech issue, simply talking about mutual respect and a resonable way of handling things instead of using an Amazon or eBay type of feedback that may not be fit many of the parties and situations ultimately involved.
You recently felt that issues posted on this board were unfair and hurtful to you, both personally and potentially financially. This is likely the same type of situation that many physicians might find themselves in, but with no way to way to rectify it. I just ask that you give thought to it in the same light.
"I "pointed out" several other things in the post also, I'm disappointed they didn't warrant some consideration also.

:agree::agree::agree:

[chelsea24]

Insightful comments dilly, thanx for the input. I realize we have oafs in the profession just like any other, but somehow there seems to be a view that physicians are mostly greedy, arrogant, and inconsiderate. The system is so completely fractured at this point that the art of medicine is rapidly being lost. Here's to letting doctors be doctors and making medicine about the patient.:beer3:

Serenity, I didn't mean it to be a blanket statement of all doctors, and if it came across that way I'm sorry. My husband and I have a fabulous doctor right now that I adore. But there are those out there that need to be "outed" and my indignation was not really pointed at the profession in general, it was pointed at this waiver. It just feels wrong to me on so many levels. Granted there are wacko patients that will see ANY doctor as bad. I agree there are two sides to every coin. My husband is a veterinarian and he went to "human" med school also. He is one of the finest physicians I know. But I went through hell with doctors treating my father. Finally found a great one, but went through many trying to do so. My husband stepped in twice and saved my father's life! Once, they called me from the hospital and said to come and say good-bye to my dad, that he would be gone in 24 hours from kidney failure. I couldn't believe it! He was not in the hospital for kidneys at all. Granted he was in his late 70's but still! So we rushed over and my husband demanded an ultrasound (I think) and they found that the cather was in backwards and the urine was flooding INTO his kidneys, virtually killing him! (I hope I'm explaining this correctly, as I am not a physician.) It was corrected and he was fine.

Consequently, I would never, NEVER leave my father, daughter, or even my husband alone in a hospital. I have many experiences I could share, but it would be way too long.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we all draw from our own experiences and I've had many bad ones. On the other hand, many good ones! Such a mixed bag, that I, personally would not sign a waiver.

I think the world of you too Serenity and certainly did not mean to belittle the valiant job that is done everyday by the really good doctors and nurses of the world. :wave:

[serenityseeker]

Serenity, I didn't mean it to be a blanket statement of all doctors, and if it came across that way I'm sorry. My husband and I have a fabulous doctor right now that I adore. But there are those out there that need to be "outed" and my indignation was not really pointed at the profession in general, it was pointed at this waiver. It just feels wrong to me on so many levels. Granted there are wacko patients that will see ANY doctor as bad. I agree there are two sides to every coin. My husband is a veterinarian and he went to "human" med school also. He is one of the finest physicians I know. But I went through hell with doctors treating my father. Finally found a great one, but went through many trying to do so. My husband stepped in twice and saved my father's life! Once, they called me from the hospital and said to come and say good-bye to my dad, that he would be gone in 24 hours from kidney failure. I couldn't believe it! He was not in the hospital for kidneys at all. Granted he was in his late 70's but still! So we rushed over and my husband demanded an ultrasound (I think) and they found that the cather was in backwards and the urine was flooding INTO his kidneys, virtually killing him! (I hope I'm explaining this correctly, as I am not a physician.) It was corrected and he was fine.

Consequently, I would never, NEVER leave my father, daughter, or even my husband alone in a hospital. I have many experiences I could share, but it would be way too long.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we all draw from our own experiences and I've had many bad ones. On the other hand, many good ones! Such a mixed bag, that I, personally would not sign a waiver.

I think the world of you too Serenity and certainly did not mean to belittle the valiant job that is done everyday by the really good doctors and nurses of the world. :wave:

It's all good hot-shot;). I just see the inherent danger in the eBay type review system that affords no recourse for the physician. Cool thing is we can agree to disagree on some things

[musicman]

Some very good input in this thread. Obviously, a hot topic. Some of my opinions...

Most doctors became doctors because they have a strong desire to help people. My PCP tells me about how he saw his Dad (general practitioner) go out of his way to treat people who were ill. His father's caring and compassion inspired him to become a doctor. His father was a good man and a good doctor. He didn't make millions, but he DID make a difference.

It is sad that most doctors today are struggling (yes, struggling) to make a living. Look up some of the average salaries that PCPs, family doctors, GYNs, and internal medicine docs make. These are the doctors we see for the routine, day-to-day stuff. The ones we depend on for most of our care. The national average...around $150,000. In Florida, it's lower. It's shocking, considering the time spent in undergrad, grad and residency. Their school wasn't free. I want MY doctor worrying about my HEALTH, not about paying the electric bill. In July, Congress (barely) stopped a 10% reduction across the board on Medicare reimbursement. Most of us would be outraged if our employer told us that we had to take a 10% salary cut, yet that is what would happen to most doctors in our area. They won't be able to afford to take care of us if that happens. Everything else goes UP...

An example: you visit you doctor and spend 15 minutes with him/her (about an average appointment time). Medicare pays that doctor $58.60. How do I know? It's on my mother's EOB from Medicare. However, for that 15 minute appointment of face-to-face with the doctor, you get a lot of behind the scenes work. There's the receptionist that scheduled and confirmed, checked you in, collected your copay, etc. There's the Medical Assistant that weighed you, took your vitals, drew your blood, set up the room, cleaned the room, printed your lab reports, updated your medications, called you with the results and got you the consultation with the specialist for the problem that was found. And, there's the MA that called you to remind you to please go do the test that you asked the doctor to order for you but never took time to get (I'm guilty of that:oops:). These folks don't work for free. The doctor also has to review your tests and coordinate how those tests need to be best handled. Whew, that's alot, and I'm probably missing A LOT more! And still, it's remarkable how often I hear people around town complain about the $10 or $20 copay they had to pay in one breath and then talk about their new $400 driver they just bought while ordering their $4.00 latte in the next. Priorities, folks!

Insurance companies continue to reduce reimbursement while increasing what they require doctors to do, many of which they don't get paid for. An example: my PCP ordered an CT for me because of a problem. My insurer (UHC) requires that the PCP notify them that I am having this test. It is not an authorization, just a notification. My PCP is not even the doctor that is performing the test or even being paid for it's completion. The facility I went to got the payment, but my PCP's staff did the leg work. I sat in the waiting room while they did it. It took 15 minutes.

And, most of all, part of a doctors job is to tell us what horrible shape were in and how we should stop drinking, stop smoking and start eating right. It's a tough job. Sometimes I get angry when being told that I need to lose 20 pounds. But, that's what I pay my doctor to do.

As a patient, I work hard to help my doctor help me.

When I schedule my appointment, I make sure I tell them EXACTLY why I'm coming in so I get the appropriate amount of time scheduled. I NEVER say everything is fine and then show up with a laundry list of problems. It's not fair to my doctor or the patients after me.

I never complain when my doc is running behind. I know he's not back there sipping tea with his feet up on the desk. He's taking care of other patients. I know when it's my turn, he'll do the same for me. I take a book and wait patiently for my time.

I NEVER cancel or miss an appointment without proper notice or a good reason. By the way, a good reason is NOT that I got a better tee time.

If my doctor asks me to fill out and update paperwork, I do without complaint. Yea, he saw me last year, yea I'm a memorable guy, but not THAT memorable. Things change and I want him, no DEMAND that he be up-to-date on all my medications and problems. I know he can't treat me effectively if I don't give full disclosure and I certainly can't blame him if he misses something because I didn't tell him everything. People die from drug interactions because they don't tell every doctor every medication they take. That won't be ME. I try to remember that no matter how much I want to be treated like the only patient, I am not. There are probably others who are in much worse shape than me.

When I need a refill, I notify my doctor a week in advance. If I forget and call after I run out, I don't throw a fit if I can't get it in the next five minutes. There may be someone else who needs more attention than me for a more serious problem than my running out of my cholesterol medicine. I want my doctor to take care of the person that really NEEDS immediate attention first, so he'll do the same for me.

I NEVER ask for a "curbside consult" when I run into my doctor around town. He needs some "ME" time.

So, my thought about the form...I don't like it. But, I understand. Seems that every other commercial is about suing your doctor. People don't like being told they drink too much (or "too much" anything) so they are quick to take offense at the simplest things.

Negligent, nasty doctors should be held accountable. But, most doctors are good PEOPLE, just like most of us. Most are trying to provide us with the care that is best for us, even if we disagree. They have good and bad days, they get overworked, short of temper, extremely stressed...but they are good people. Take a deep breath, have an ice cream cone (sugar-free of course) and things will probably not be as bad as you thought.

[serenityseeker]

Some very good input in this thread. Obviously, a hot topic. Some of my opinions...

Most doctors became doctors because they have a strong desire to help people. My PCP tells me about how he saw his Dad (general practitioner) go out of his way to treat people who were ill. His father's caring and compassion inspired him to become a doctor. His father was a good man and a good doctor. He didn't make millions, but he DID make a difference.

It is sad that most doctors today are struggling (yes, struggling) to make a living. Look up some of the average salaries that PCPs, family doctors, GYNs, and internal medicine docs make. These are the doctors we see for the routine, day-to-day stuff. The ones we depend on for most of our care. The national average...around $150,000. In Florida, it's lower. It's shocking, considering the time spent in undergrad, grad and residency. Their school wasn't free. I want MY doctor worrying about my HEALTH, not about paying the electric bill. In July, Congress (barely) stopped a 10% reduction across the board on Medicare reimbursement. Most of us would be outraged if our employer told us that we had to take a 10% salary cut, yet that is what would happen to most doctors in our area. They won't be able to afford to take care of us if that happens. Everything else goes UP...

An example: you visit you doctor and spend 15 minutes with him/her (about an average appointment time). Medicare pays that doctor $58.60. How do I know? It's on my mother's EOB from Medicare. However, for that 15 minute appointment of face-to-face with the doctor, you get a lot of behind the scenes work. There's the receptionist that scheduled and confirmed, checked you in, collected your copay, etc. There's the Medical Assistant that weighed you, took your vitals, drew your blood, set up the room, cleaned the room, printed your lab reports, updated your medications, called you with the results and got you the consultation with the specialist for the problem that was found. And, there's the MA that called you to remind you to please go do the test that you asked the doctor to order for you but never took time to get (I'm guilty of that:oops:). These folks don't work for free. The doctor also has to review your tests and coordinate how those tests need to be best handled. Whew, that's alot, and I'm probably missing A LOT more! And still, it's remarkable how often I hear people around town complain about the $10 or $20 copay they had to pay in one breath and then talk about their new $400 driver they just bought while ordering their $4.00 latte in the next. Priorities, folks!

Insurance companies continue to reduce reimbursement while increasing what they require doctors to do, many of which they don't get paid for. An example: my PCP ordered an CT for me because of a problem. My insurer (UHC) requires that the PCP notify them that I am having this test. It is not an authorization, just a notification. My PCP is not even the doctor that is performing the test or even being paid for it's completion. The facility I went to got the payment, but my PCP's staff did the leg work. I sat in the waiting room while they did it. It took 15 minutes.

And, most of all, part of a doctors job is to tell us what horrible shape were in and how we should stop drinking, stop smoking and start eating right. It's a tough job. Sometimes I get angry when being told that I need to lose 20 pounds. But, that's what I pay my doctor to do.

As a patient, I work hard to help my doctor help me.

When I schedule my appointment, I make sure I tell them EXACTLY why I'm coming in so I get the appropriate amount of time scheduled. I NEVER say everything is fine and then show up with a laundry list of problems. It's not fair to my doctor or the patients after me.

I never complain when my doc is running behind. I know he's not back there sipping tea with his feet up on the desk. He's taking care of other patients. I know when it's my turn, he'll do the same for me. I take a book and wait patiently for my time.

I NEVER cancel or miss an appointment without proper notice or a good reason. By the way, a good reason is NOT that I got a better tee time.

If my doctor asks me to fill out and update paperwork, I do without complaint. Yea, he saw me last year, yea I'm a memorable guy, but not THAT memorable. Things change and I want him, no DEMAND that he be up-to-date on all my medications and problems. I know he can't treat me effectively if I don't give full disclosure and I certainly can't blame him if he misses something because I didn't tell him everything. People die from drug interactions because they don't tell every doctor every medication they take. That won't be ME. I try to remember that no matter how much I want to be treated like the only patient, I am not. There are probably others who are in much worse shape than me.

When I need a refill, I notify my doctor a week in advance. If I forget and call after I run out, I don't throw a fit if I can't get it in the next five minutes. There may be someone else who needs more attention than me for a more serious problem than my running out of my cholesterol medicine. I want my doctor to take care of the person that really NEEDS immediate attention first, so he'll do the same for me.

I NEVER ask for a "curbside consult" when I run into my doctor around town. He needs some "ME" time.

So, my thought about the form...I don't like it. But, I understand. Seems that every other commercial is about suing your doctor. People don't like being told they drink too much (or "too much" anything) so they are quick to take offense at the simplest things.

Negligent, nasty doctors should be held accountable. But, most doctors are good PEOPLE, just like most of us. Most are trying to provide us with the care that is best for us, even if we disagree. They have good and bad days, they get overworked, short of temper, extremely stressed...but they are good people. Take a deep breath, have an ice cream cone (sugar-free of course) and things will probably not be as bad as you thought.

Wow. If u r not in the medical field I know some doctors that might pay you just to be a model patient.:bowdown:
It really is the little things you listed that add up over the tousands of times a year. I am sure your PCP appreciates you, and I appreciate your input on this subject.

[musicman]

Chels I think the world of you from what I have come to know from these boards but I really am kind of bothered by all of the negative blanket statements. We don't all( or even most) for that matter spend our time on the golf course (kind of hard to when working 60-70 hr weeks), nor do most of us "cover" for one another. Not angry but I do feel the need to stick up for my colleagues that are so far removed from the negative characterizations. Physicians are not the enemy. By and large they are hard working people that sacrifice their own emotional and physical health, even their relationships to a degree for doing what they consider to be a privledge.
I truly wish people could spend every minute of a week or so behind the scenes, you would be shocked and overwhelmed, as we aften are.

My aunt was recently diagnosed with a severely blocked carotid artery when visiting her OB-GYN. The blockage was so severe that the doctor called an ambulance and had my aunt taken to the hospital for Emergency surgery. When she next saw her OB-GYN, she asked the doctor why her PCP hadn't found the problem but she, an OB-GYN had. My guess, like some of the "bad" doctors out there, the PCP never listened to my aunt's heart, arteries, etc. My aunt confirmed this. So, what should the doctor say? "Your PCP is an idiot and shouldn't practice medicine." (possible slander). Should she stick up for (or cover for) the doctor's error? My aunt was pleased that the doctor tried to take the high road. She told my aunt that she couldn't answer for the other doctor, but encouraged my aunt to ask. She also empasized that the most important thing is that she got treated before anything really bad happened. Did the OB-GYN cover for the other doctor? No way, but she also didn't negate my aunt's concern or pass judgment on the other doctor. She's letting my aunt do that.

[musicman]

Wow. If u r not in the medical field I know some doctors that might pay you just to be a model patient.:bowdown:
It really is the little things you listed that add up over the tousands of times a year. I am sure your PCP appreciates you, and I appreciate your input on this subject.

I try to be a model patient, customer, husband, friend, (stranger?).

I believe that most of the problems in the world come back to the Golden Rule or "All I ever needed to know, I learned in Kindergarten". --- Robert Fulghum http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/9691/kindergarten.html or my Grandpa. He said things like:

1) There's always someone worse off than you are.
2) There's always someone bigger than you that can take you down.
3) You are not the only person that lives in this house.
4) Biggest has the right of way (usually when a semi was bearing down on us).:laugh:
5) Be nice to your Mom.
6) Common sense isn't common.
7) You will be better remembered for being nice than being right.
8) You can have a cookie, but if you take the LAST cookie, you'll answer to me.
9) The world always looks better after a nap (or an ice cream or walk on the beach).
10) You always know what's the right thing to do, even if you try to ignore it.
11) Doing right isn't always easy and sometimes it's really hard.
12) Just because your Mom says she's a modern woman doesn't mean you should stop holding the door for her.

Well, he had lots of 'em, but you get the idea.

[Sidney Lanier]

The unfair and dangerous part of this is that anyone is able to write anything inflamatory about any physician as their "opinion". As in all other parts of life there are unreasonable people that be come disgruntled for unreasonable reasons. Defaming a physician, even if its only your "opinion" is hurtful and dangerous, and potentially damaging to professionals that deal with difficult people in some of the most difficult circumstances life has to offer. Many of these patients may in fact have emotional problems that affect their ability to give or receive communication normally, or to honestly and accurately portray the situations they deal with. Who is going to be able to tell the difference?
Should we all be held accountable? Certainly, just as the patients should (non compliance, obesity, smoking, missing appointments to just name a few). Medicine is difficult enough and has become too much of a battlefield as it is today without having to deal with sometimes wild, unfounded, and misplaced accusations. There are accepted channels to go through to deal with complaints regarding physicans, from actually sitting down to voice your concerns with the doctor to speaking with hospitals to going to the state medical board.
Let's try to remember that physicians are human too, and sometimes may have an off day and a "lousy" attitude. Our parents die, our children become sick, our patients die despite our greatests attempts, we carry the weight of a lot of peoples problems in our hearts and souls every day.
You want to "fight back"? Then do so in a fair and equitable way. Life in medicine is hard enough. Practicing today is a virtual minefield. Take a look at the statistics of the mass exodous from medicine that is gathering steam. I abhor medical professionals that do not have compassion, empathy and respect for their patients, I also know that this is a relative minority. Let's offer respect to those that sacrifice personal life and family every day for what they do, and avoid putting them in yet another defensless position.

I could not agree more. I have unfortunately had to avail myself of the medical profession far more than most and I have nothing but gratitude to those physicians and others. If not for them, I would not be (1) walking, (2) seeing, and more important (3) alive.... How easy it is to complain about having to wait longer than expected when a physician may be dealing with an emergency and to CHOOSE not to understand the meaning of 'triage.' I was recently treated by an outstanding physician (I say that having had enough 'training' of my own) whom I overheard being threatened with a lawsuit by a loud, obnoxious patient who didn't like 'the news.' I could cite instances and more instances. No doubt there are those in the medical field with less personality than we would like, but that's not what I'm there for!

In another thread I recently wrote about the PA who took a hand that looked like ground beef and transformed it back into a hand following an accident in December; I was in The Villages Hospital ER for SIX hours, during which time he was either with me or constantly running back in to check on me. I learned recently that his submitted charge was just under $500, from which the insurance company promptly subtracted over $400, meaning that he was paid less than $100 for his services. As I pointed out, this is less than our oldest son, a grocery clerk, earns in six hours. The control the government has given to insurance companies makes life extremely difficult not just for us as patients but for medical practitioners in general, just another issue that's part of their lives.

I also served as a Hospice volunteer for many years and was in fact instrumental in bringing the Hospice movement into our rural NYS region. The level of care and compassion on the part of physicians and others dealing with terminal patients and their families was beyond touching.

I would not be thrilled to sign the waiver which started this thread, but to an extent, given the power of the Internet, I can understand where it's coming from....

[serenityseeker]

Thanks for the input Syd.
You made some points I was trying to and perhaps didn't do so well with.
These eBay/Amazon type reviews really dont have a place in medicine. The physician is defensless and bound by HIPPA (federal laws governing confidentiality).
Never ONCE in private practice was I late (and almost always was late) for anything personal like eating lunch or peeing. It was the patient that went bad in the hospital unexpectedly or the one that came to the office with the heart attack or bleeding wound instead of going to the E.R, or the one that came in for a blood pressure check and just happened to mention they had been suicidal since the death of their spouse.. Did that keep people from being angry? For those with basic compassion and intelligence yes. For some, they frankly said they didn't care if someone else was dying, they were important too (yes they said THAT).
Imagine those same unreasonable people posting whatever they wanted with the physician having no recourse, as if he even had time to pursue that while struggling with the patients' difficulties and the day to day struggle of keeping the office running. It simply is mean spirited and unfare. I interestingly did not hear nearly the clamour to set up sites singing the praises of great doctors.
I'm just saying guys, it is the hardest job I could have ever imangined, and the continous/unrelenting attacks from lawyers, insurance companies, the government, and disgruntled patients is making leaving medicine behind an easier and easier decision for more and more physicians.
Think you have a tough time getting an appointment now? If you couple the virtual dearth of those entering primary care residiencies with those leaving the field and retiring early or changing careers, you aint seen nothing yet.
I could go on for pages about yearly salary cuts for most physicians for the last 5-8 years, the lawsuit issues and more. My point is if you feel the need to attack them you have be prepared for the future consequences. As I said before there are established ways to go about addressing problems that don't encourage anger driven, harmful, indefensible comments.
The physcian can't just ban them from the board they post on if he doesn't agree.
The physician can't just say that he has been asking you to lose 50 lbs and quit smoking for 10 years.
The physcician cant just say how you miss follow up appointments and don't take medicines as ordered.
The physician can't explain that "Jane Doe" shared that her husband is beating her, leading to a longer office visit and referal to proper avenues of help.
If you have problems with your doctor TELL HIM or HER! So many people never do then trash the doctor. We need reminders just like everyone else, and sometimes don't realize the front staff has slipped into bad habits.
If that doesn't work, vote with your pocketbook and go to someone else. And by all means if a loved one or friend asks you your opinion give it, just do so after doing your part to encourage communication and a fair resolution.