Where do Political Beliefs Come From?

[Guest]

I've been reading the political thread for a long time and I am regularly impressed by the quality of many posts. Some of the regular contributors are paragons of 21st century intelligence - they know right where to go to access significant information then pull it together into comprehensive summaries and cogent arguments. Watching the give and take of posters like Villages Kahuna and Bucco in the current thread "A Little Income Tax History" is a good example.

The political thread is also full of emotion. Not as much now as during the recent campaign, but still the passion is obvious. Many of the posters hold their beliefs so dear that they can't help taking offense at diverging views. That's why I have rarely contributed. I'd rather not offend anyone, and I certainly don't enjoy getting blasted.

But as I keep reading, there are some things I just can't figure out. For example, how do people arrive at the positions they hold so dear?

Bucco finished one of his posts on the Income Tax thread this way:
"In addition I just find it offensive AND bad economics to go after the "rich" to fund the "poor". It's like calling a class war".

A study of history shows that the fundamental cause of class wars, revolutions and societal collapses was the too large gap that existed between the rich and the poor (or, the powerful and the weak). And the gap always grows when it is unchecked. Our not yet failed democracy exists and has thrived because of the emphasis on striving for equality. In economic terms that means employing mechanisms to redistribute wealth, which we've been engaged in since the birth of the republic. In the tough times those more fortunate have paid more to assist the less fortunate. The result is the most prosperous society ever, and the ability to absorb millions of new citizens into an environment where they are free and have a chance. We can and should wrestle forever about the details, but the concept remains intact. I just can't understand how the concept can be offensive. It's a fundamental tenet of the American experiment.

[Guest]

anyone have a rollaid...........

[Guest]

You are correct that when the gap is to wide a culture will die. Also when the have not's take from the have's to the point of eliminating their desire to grow, a culture will die. I believe almost everyone wants to help those who can't take care of themselves. The US is the most giving country in the world. To charity, to other nations, to it's own people. What people get upset about is giving to those who are able, but not willing to help themselves and expect the handout. When we see mortgage assistance given to those who lied on the application, food stamps that are traded for beer and cigarettes, and mothers having more babies for the sole purpose of getting a larger welfare check the have's have had enough. And that will cause a revolution. As will people starving. Balance is the key. Finding it, managing it, and preventing it being abused is the challenge.

As to values. I think you have to look at how people were raised and what their parents taught them. I grew up very poor on a small farm in NH. Had to work very hard since I was 10 years old and still working 50 + years later. Had to pay my own way through college. Had to work summers, nights, and go to a state university. Every thing I have I earned through my own hard work, saving, working two jobs, investing, and doing without things others may have had. And I am sure many others on TOTV have done the same things. I have also been very generous to those I see who need help. But when I see some of the outright abuse of the system and people who believe they deserve something for nothing only because someone else has it, I get very angry.

I will go out of my way to help anyone who is trying to help themselves. Give them my time, money, help, knowledge, and have a long history of doing it. I hire a lot of people in my work and I have special programs to hire handicap workers. They make some of the best employees as they really want a job. They want to pay taxes. They want the right to be fired. Most don't want a hand out, they want the chance to earn a living.

So peoples value system is a long time being built and grows as you grow. It shapes your political beliefs, your social engagements, your work ethic and your life in general.

[Guest]

I learned long ago that decisions made by those who are elected to do so have an enormous influence on my life as an individual.

I could give you a short, or not so short, history of what I mean. Starting with the circumstances of how I came to be in this world. My dad always told me that had Harry Truman not made that famous and difficult decision, it was entirely possible that I would never have been born. My dad was in the Navy, and was headed into a place where he felt there was a good chance he could have died had the war not ended when it did. As you can see, my name is Boomer.

I could go on and on about how political decisions had an influence on my career. And then I could talk about how I navigated through the tax laws to make the friendly parts work in our own financial decisions. And about how lower cap gains have been my friend through real estate sales and investments. And how although it is not in a big way, those friendly cap gains made it possible for us to employ a few people on a project or two around here. Kind of a microcosm of employment opportunities, a microcosm influenced by big political decisions.

And then I could babble about how I saw this mess coming due to political idiocy. But nobody would believe that part anyway. Remember Cassandra in the Trojan War who kept yelling, "Do not bring that wooden horse inside these walls."

And then I could rant a while about how my party of my lifetime left me in the last election to be a woman scorned. Out here with all that fury, but with nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. The Republicans did what I feared would happen by pandering to the far right because power is everything and that is what they perceived as the easiest route to a block vote into power. (And how's that been workin' for 'em, huh?)

My, my, I seem to be on a rant this morning. I am sitting here listening to my gardening show like I do on Saturday mornings a lot. And I saw this question, and off I went it looks like.

(And btw, I like what 12ridehd has to say here. About how we should help those who help themselves and all that. Picture me holding up one of those little "I agree" signs.)

The point of all this is, to answer your question, my politics are not so much influenced by what I read as by what I see. And right now I see some daggone scary stuff.

Boomer

[Guest]

Boomer, I was agreeing with everything you said up until "the Republicans pandering to the far right" The biggest problem they have and why they lost the house and senate is they have moved away from the conservative values and trying to make themselves look more like Democrats. Read that a move to the center. The only time the Republicans are successful is when they stick to the core values of conservatives. Lower taxes, less government, more freedom for the people. When they do that they win elections, when they don't we end up with elected officials who raise taxes, spend, spend, spend and add more regulations, and more government. Based on whats been passed in congress already and what Obama has proposed to spend, if he gets most of it, which I believe he will, he will spend more in the first 20 months of his presidency then has been spent by government from its inception until the day he took office. Guess what that will do to your $$$$. You think Jimmy Carter caused inflation, which was double digit, wait until you need a $20 bill to buy a loaf of bread.

[Guest]

I do have a solid set of core values that came from how and where I was raised and grew up....and as important the time frame in our Nation's history, I consider myself fortunate to have grown up in.

Add in the experiences of life. Plus the successes (and disappointments) of a couple of different careers. Add to all this the raising of a family with 5 kids and a very tolerant loving wife.

These are the basic ingredients of my beliefs. I apply my beliefs to everything I see, hear, do and do not do. I have developed a credo of plan your work and work your plan; do not commit to that which you can not do or deliver upon; if you do commit, then I fully...100% expect delivery with no excuses or alibis...because I am also a firm believer that we do control our own destinies, hence no excuses. I do not subscribe to a commitment missed or ignored plus an excuse = forgiveness/tolerance/allowance.

I was and still am a very staunch advocate of not leaving people in jobs they cannot perform. Either train them or get rid of them if they can't do the job.

Accomplishments are the measurements....not words or promises...ya can't write checks on words and promises!!!

In turn anything I say or commit you can expect delivery upon...100% in full 100% of the time.

All the above (plus lots more) determines actions I take, don't take, say or don't say.
And these beliefs/experiences/expectation form what I apply to politics. Also explains why I have more disappointment than satisfaction with politicians, the political process and especially political correctness.

When I was in corporate America I never needed to know a persons political affiliation to make a decision to hire/fire/reward.

These are the things that shape how I happen to approach politics...as well as my expectations. I am a registered republican, but ALWAYS vote for the person, not the party. And regardless of party I still do expect them to do what they say (hence the disappointment).
Local, state and federal government is frought with incompetence that some how strangely manage to get elected and re-elected by the very constituents they do not deliver for....this is one that significantly affects my political beliefs!!!!

BTK

[Guest]

Boomer, I was agreeing with everything you said up until "the Republicans pandering to the far right" The biggest problem they have and why they lost the house and senate is they have moved away from the conservative values and trying to make themselves look more like Democrats. Read that a move to the center. The only time the Republicans are successful is when they stick to the core values of conservatives. Lower taxes, less government, more freedom for the people. When they do that they win elections, when they don't we end up with elected officials who raise taxes, spend, spend, spend and add more regulations, and more government. Based on whats been passed in congress already and what Obama has proposed to spend, if he gets most of it, which I believe he will, he will spend more in the first 20 months of his presidency then has been spent by government from its inception until the day he took office. Guess what that will do to your $$$$. You think Jimmy Carter caused inflation, which was double digit, wait until you need a $20 bill to buy a loaf of bread.

The Republicans moved away from conservative values 8 years ago. Of course, they called themselves conservative, but politicians do tend to stretch the truth a bit. Some, more than most.

[Guest]

Boomer, I was agreeing with everything you said up until "the Republicans pandering to the far right" The biggest problem they have and why they lost the house and senate is they have moved away from the conservative values and trying to make themselves look more like Democrats. Read that a move to the center. The only time the Republicans are successful is when they stick to the core values of conservatives. Lower taxes, less government, more freedom for the people. When they do that they win elections, when they don't we end up with elected officials who raise taxes, spend, spend, spend and add more regulations, and more government. Based on whats been passed in congress already and what Obama has proposed to spend, if he gets most of it, which I believe he will, he will spend more in the first 20 months of his presidency then has been spent by government from its inception until the day he took office. Guess what that will do to your $$$$. You think Jimmy Carter caused inflation, which was double digit, wait until you need a $20 bill to buy a loaf of bread.

I know HD. I know. I was shopping mortgage rates, buying a house, during the Carter years while rates were going up by the minute. (I was still a baby but was tuned in to the lay of the land.) Found a 10% fixed and was thrilled to have it. I also held CD's at 17%, but I knew that was not right either.

But it seems like after all that, the Fed feared only inflation. And the fear of inflation grew and grew. And then Greenspan, genius though he may be, just kept giving money away, with little reg, until the floodgates opened for obscene, unrestrained greed. I kept yelling at Al to knock it off, every time I saw him on television. I know he thought he was being a capitalist. I know he used to party with Ayn Rand. Well, maybe he should have been partying with Boomer.

About my long lost Repubs. I liked McCain. I defended his age on here once. Told people to shut up about it. McCain is one tough guy. But I knew he had to have a clue for the VP. So I watched. I waited. And then he slapped me right across the face when he picked SP. It looked like any port in a storm to me. Any woman would do. I had to then write him that Dear John letter. Our country needed to get beyond calling upon the abortion issue to drive the bus. Easy mark, no thought required, hot button still though for the Repubs when the country was facing economic meltdown, barely addressed by campaign rhetoric.

The war? Who knows? Mr. Boomer tells me that we cannot know everything about it. He was military for a while, jumping out of perfectly good airplanes, but Nixon signed the treaty before he had to go to Viet Nam from Okinawa where he was stationed. The war thing? A mess indeed. But I do not believe that our right to know should supersede out right to exist. And it scares me a lot that some want it that way. Let our spies do their thing and fund them to do it. But please do not compromise our safety by demanding we be told too much.

I did not want to break up with the Repubs. They made me do it. I cannot worship Rush Limbaugh and the like. I wanted my party to see the big picture and offer common sense solutions. It was my party and I will cry if I want to. I truly am lost politically. Neither party is what I want.

Before I go I am posting a link here. It is that old thing about a democracy lasting only 200 years. It took me forever to find a link to this. First I had the wrong guy. Then I thought his name was Tyler, not Tytler. Then I found out that it is kind of a phantom attribution of the quote. And then the best I could do was this Wikiquote link.

I know enough about citing sources to know that anything with Wiki on the front is not always truly referenced, but hey we are living in a WikiWorld, are we not?

So have a look at this, and attributed correctly or not, it is kind of scary. How far down that list are we? (The list is at the bottom half of the link. The first part is kind of a mess. Wiki stuff is not the best as a real source. But that list, that has been floating around forever, does give me pause for thought.)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler

Boomer

[Guest]

12ridehd, I wanted to post exactly what you said. Notice how many Democrats are elected by running to the right. As far as I'm concerned McPain is a RINO. I had to hold my nose to vote for him. Better than the alternative, but not by much.
Kayaker, you are right. Bush turned out to be more like his father than Reagan. He disappointed me many times. He did have some pluses though, he kept us safe, after 911, two good picks on the Supreme Court and he kept Gore and Kerry out of the White House.
Boomer, I found Palin to be a breath of fresh air. Not your run of the mill politician. She certainly had more experience, running a government, than the other three guys running. The fact that the MSM is destroying her should tell you something.

[Guest]

12ridehd, I wanted to post exactly what you said. Notice how many Democrats are elected by running to the right. As far as I'm concerned McPain is a RINO. I had to hold my nose to vote for him. Better than the alternative, but not by much.
Kayaker, you are right. Bush turned out to be more like his father than Reagan. He disappointed me many times. He did have some pluses though, he kept us safe, after 911, two good picks on the Supreme Court and he kept Gore and Kerry out of the White House.
Boomer, I found Palin to be a breath of fresh air. Not your run of the mill politician. She certainly had more experience, running a government, than the other three guys running. The fact that the MSM is destroying her should tell you something.

Thank you Sally Jo
You saved me a lot of typing..........

Fumar the slacker

[Guest]

BTK, right on.

Boomer, you are correct on the quote. And yes we are far down the path to dictatorship. If you are a reader of Karl Marx, you will see we are going step by step down that road. Tax the wealthy until they have nothing left, then inflate the currency until it is worthless, then the people are dependant on the government for everything. When that happens they will accept dictators. The are so many examples of it, even in recent history, that you would think people would know better. But everyone wants something for nothing. And so they vote for who ever they think will give it to them until there is nothing left.

[Guest]

BTK, right on.

Boomer, you are correct on the quote. And yes we are far down the path to dictatorship. If you are a reader of Karl Marx, you will see we are going step by step down that road. Tax the wealthy until they have nothing left, then inflate the currency until it is worthless, then the people are dependant on the government for everything. When that happens they will accept dictators. The are so many examples of it, even in recent history, that you would think people would know better. But everyone wants something for nothing. And so they vote for who ever they think will give it to them until there is nothing left.


Well, HD,

That quote creeps me out every time I see it. And nobody seems to know how to get us back on track. That other quote I throw around is, "Unrestrained greed is not only bad morals, it's bad economics." I still can't find who said that first. But I don't think I did.

I have thought of posting a picture here of me dancing with W at the 2000 inauguration. A little Photoshop can be a lot of fun. I used to hang that picture behind my desk in my office and watch people do a double take. I had such hope. I am smiling in that picture.

And about what we read, I was a - oh how shall I say it - "a facilitator of discussion" of Orwell's 1984, actually it was in 1984. One of the things we did was to take a look around and pay attention to the things that were in our real world that were way too much like things in that work of fiction. And now, oh my, the list would be much longer than it was back then. That book would make an interesting book club discussion for our current time, although Orwell can get a little tedious in spots.

Like I have said before, this is Orwellian. This is surreal.

And where oh where is Thomas Paine when we need him?

Boomer (And if I do not move this infernal computer out of the main part of my house where I can look in way too often, I will surely end up with just one big eye right in the middle of my forehead.)

[Guest]

My answer is short. I believe in equality, but it is "equality of opportunity", not "equality of result".

www.cato.org

That web site saves me lots of typing.

[Guest]

My answer is short. I believe in equality, but it is "equality of opportunity", not "equality of result".

www.cato.org

That web site saves me lots of typing.



"equality of opportunity", not "equality of result".

BINGO !!

Opening post sort of took me to task and I could not have responded better !!

Thank you Number 6 !!!