A moral dilemma

[Talk Host]

If you see a child, in this case a six year old, driving a golf cart on the street, (Today on Legacy Lane) and grandma is sitting on the passenger side, and you say nothing, and later the cart is involved in an accident and somebody is hurt or killed, do you share in the blame?

(IN this case, cars and carts were whizzing by in both directions and the kid was driving about 5 miles an hour, with her rear end on the edge of the seat so she would reach the pedals and her nose up over the steering wheel so she could see.)

Note to Grandma......"....shame on you....shame....shame.....shame."

JLK

[RCT]

I understand the moral part, but, also have to think about the legal part, remembering also, that the golf cart community is a privilege, that theoretically, can be taken away if there are too many incidents. I personally always say something when I see a young one driving, and if someone is offended, then so be it. I do not want to ever see this aspect of our community in jeopardy just because of a parent or grandparent who doesn't know how to say no to a child. The children in my family know that they ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT be able to drive a golf cart here until they are 15, and won't be able to take it out without a adult with them until they have their legal driving privileges, end of story. These people that feel they are doing a child or grandchild a favor, or giving them a present by allowing this, are misguided, and I will continue to say something and protect my lifestyle here, wether they get mad or not.

[Halle]

:agree::agree:

I understand the moral part, but, also have to think about the legal part, remembering also, that the golf cart community is a privilege, that theoretically, can be taken away if there are too many incidents. I personally always say something when I see a young one driving, and if someone is offended, then so be it. I do not want to ever see this aspect of our community in jeopardy just because of a parent or grandparent who doesn't know how to say no to a child. The children in my family know that they ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT be able to drive a golf cart here until they are 15, and won't be able to take it out without a adult with them until they have their legal driving privileges, end of story. These people that feel they are doing a child or grandchild a favor, or giving them a present by allowing this, are misguided, and I will continue to say something and protect my lifestyle here, wether they get mad or not.

Easy access to almost everything we need via Golfcart is one of the reasons we bought a home in TV. I also feel an obligation to speak up when I see laws being broken. If we were all more pro-active we might see some positive results.

[dillywho]

QUOTE=RCT;198584]I understand the moral part, but, also have to think about the legal part, remembering also, that the golf cart community is a privilege, that theoretically, can be taken away if there are too many incidents. I personally always say something when I see a young one driving, and if someone is offended, then so be it. I do not want to ever see this aspect of our community in jeopardy just because of a parent or grandparent who doesn't know how to say no to a child. The children in my family know that they ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT be able to drive a golf cart here until they are 15, and won't be able to take it out without a adult with them until they have their legal driving privileges, end of story. These people that feel they are doing a child or grandchild a favor, or giving them a present by allowing this, are misguided, and I will continue to say something and protect my lifestyle here, wether they get mad or not.[/QUOTE]
:agree:
I still would like to know if these same grandparents would (or do) let them drive their "big" cars. My guess would be no and these people need to realize that the carts are motorized vehicles and not toys! I have heard about the tickets and that the kids can't get their license when they do become of age, but are the grandparents/parents fined? A very hefty fine might well get their attention. The question keeps getting asked everyday why kids are so out of control.....this is a prime example. They are not taught the true meaning of the word "no" nor do they understand authority. Too much of the time they get to make the rules (or lack thereof).

Unfortunately, someone else will get the blame and lawsuits will fly when one of them gets hurt or worse. The kids are not to blame for wanting to drive the carts. The grandparents and parents are.

[Talk Host]

I think they are also teaching the kids that it's okay to break the law.

[mfp509]

I dread school breaks because of this very reason. If they would just start dishing out fines to the adults allowing these kids to drive the golf cart maybe word would get around and some of it would stop. I've said it before - unfortunately a very serious accident or even fatality will have to occur before they will make any attempt to control it. In the 6 years I have lived here I have seen this problem increase because of the increase in population. It's only a matter of time that something serious will happen which probably could be avoided.

[SUNNYMARYANN]

Is there no law enforcement or controlling authority within The Villages? If there were a Homeowners association (I understand there is none) the HOA would be the ones to send a letter to the homeowner making them aware of the penalty for allowing a child to drive a golf cart.
There must be someone who can uphold and enforce the rules and who will alert the rule breakers of the penalty. A retirement community is not the place where I would expect to see kids running around uncontrolled and especially driving a motorized vehicle. There must be someone that these offenders can be reported to and some form of penalty.

[thirtyoughtsix]

do you tell all golf cart operators who "fly" by you going much faster then the legal 19.6 mph that they are speeding,( I would bet that a very high percent of golf carts can and do go much faster that the legal limit) or do you call the state police when each car goes by you at 80 mph, I doubt it and while I don't condone "gram and gramps" letting their underage grandchildren drive their carts I do not believe its the responsibility of any of us to act as "law enforcement". I would venture a guess that most of the violators know that it is either illegal or a violation and are 'taking a chance" they will not be caught. I unfortunately do not know the answer (perhaps more county sheriffs patrolling our streets and multimodal paths) but I for one would never tell someone what they can or can't do unless it directly affects my safety or infringes on my property ( as in the case of a pet owner allowing their pet to use your lawn to do its business).

[RCT]

do you tell all golf cart operators who "fly" by you going much faster then the legal 19.6 mph that they are speeding,( I would bet that a very high percent of golf carts can and do go much faster that the legal limit) or do you call the state police when each car goes by you at 80 mph, I doubt it and while I don't condone "gram and gramps" letting their underage grandchildren drive their carts I do not believe its the responsibility of any of us to act as "law enforcement". I would venture a guess that most of the violators know that it is either illegal or a violation and are 'taking a chance" they will not be caught. I unfortunately do not know the answer (perhaps more county sheriffs patrolling our streets and multimodal paths) but I for one would never tell someone what they can or can't do unless it directly affects my safety or infringes on my property ( as in the case of a pet owner allowing their pet to use your lawn to do its business). Are you playing Devil's advocate? What is your motive for this post? Children driving DOES affect our safety, and it DOES infringe on all our lifestyle when it eventually could come down to losing the right to have this as a golf cart community. The state grants us the privilege to have this, as they do other golf cart communities. I guess you wouldn't say something to someone that litters, also? And, although I agree that a dog going on your lawn isn't nice, I think that a 15 years or younger child driving a golf cart on streeets is much more dangerous, wouldn't you say???

[Laker14]

do you tell all golf cart operators who "fly" by you going much faster then the legal 19.6 mph that they are speeding,( I would bet that a very high percent of golf carts can and do go much faster that the legal limit) or do you call the state police when each car goes by you at 80 mph, I doubt it and while I don't condone "gram and gramps" letting their underage grandchildren drive their carts I do not believe its the responsibility of any of us to act as "law enforcement". I would venture a guess that most of the violators know that it is either illegal or a violation and are 'taking a chance" they will not be caught. I unfortunately do not know the answer (perhaps more county sheriffs patrolling our streets and multimodal paths) but I for one would never tell someone what they can or can't do unless it directly affects my safety or infringes on my property ( as in the case of a pet owner allowing their pet to use your lawn to do its business).

If enough stupid people do stupid things, then eventually the insurance companies put a stop to insuring. Then nobody will be able to drive a golf cart. IF you can do something to abate the stupidity, no matter whose noses get out of joint, you should do it. I wouldn't worry about being polite either.

I don't see a dilemma here at all.

I'd take a picture with my cell phone, and tell the idiot that you are going to report her. Then I'd report her.

[macgolfnut]

Thirtyoughtsix, I don't normally get mad at a comment on TOTV, but your comments really ticked me off. So it is better to bury your head in the sand and ignore a problem than get involved. We should all just mind our own business and let something that is both illegal and terribly dangerous continue because it is supposedly not our problem? I guess if I see someone robbing your house I should not do anything about it because "it is not our responsibility to act as law enforcement." A dog doing it's business on your lawn is important, but putting a child's life in danger or endangering someone else's life or property is not important. It's a little more difficult to do something about a speeder on the highway than it is to say something to an overzealous grandparent who won't teach their grandchild rules and safety. :cus:

[CJ]

Plain and simple: TV needs written rules...we all are at risk...carts do enter the street at some points and then car drivers and cart drivers use good judgement to insure safety for both.

Who should we report this activity to now? Police? Maybe alerting them and asking their input? The Moores family? I am new here and am truly upset by this.

[Taltarzac]

Plain and simple: TV needs written rules...we all are at risk...carts do enter the street at some points and then car drivers and cart drivers use good judgement to insure safety for both.

Who should we report this activity to now? Police? Maybe alerting them and asking their input? The Moores family? I am new here and am truly upset by this.

That would really be a first. The youngest person I have seen driving a golf cart in TV was maybe 7 or 8.

This upsets me too but what are we to do about it? Distract the kid driver by yelling at him or her and/or at the grandparents/parents/uncles/aunts or whomever happens to be in the cart with this kid?

I was just coming out of the tunnel under CR101 just west of Crispers in Southern Trace Shopping Center while this minor (about 10 to 12 years old) and his grandparent were turning into the tunnel a few days ago. That seemed to be gunning for an accident if I tried to tell the grandparent how unsafe this made me feel seeing someone so young also taking that turn.

[billethkid]

which is typical....especially in today's litigious and permissive society.
However, there are those of us who view it is a part of our responsibility to bring to a violators attention what they are doing wrong.

The reaction one gets will go all the way from being flipped the bird (isn't it grotesque when a senior does it!!!) to a thank you.

It is not enforcing anything. It is called doing the right thing when one is observed clearly doing something wrong or unsafe.

Over my life time I have been cursed and flipped off more than thanked. I always wish them a good day and wave bye-bye saying...see ya in church!!!

BTK

[tankdvr1950]

as a soon to be resident of TV (June....YEA!!!!)....this post scares me big time...

its just shows you that idiotic people are everywhere...yes...grandma...that means you

as others have said...i read other posts that get my dander up but i let it go...but this one crosses the line.....how could any adult...especially one over 50 be so stupid as to allow a child to drive a golf cart and to have someone propose that we all ignore it....its as stupid as what grandma did.

knowing that this type of illogical and dangerous behavior occurs....what the solution

having worked in government all my working life...i know that the local authorities will not act until something tragic happens (probably more than once since one occurrence is only an "accident")...or until the residents raise such a hue and cry that the politicians cannot ignore it and take some action....(question...how many TV residents are willing to give up some of their retirement to protest this situation and pressure their county representatives to make something happen???)

i would like to see a sheriff in a golf cart with a radar gun enforcing speed limits and other safety issues (i.e. age of driver????).....i would like to see a registration requirement for carts...with the requirements to display number plates...so at least one could report apparent violations to the local law enforcement authorities...and yes...i for one would be willing to pay a bit more taxes to help insure my wife's and my safety on the cart paths...and maybe golf car driving privileges could/should be taken away for multiple violations

rather than put our heads in the sand and doing nothing and accepting a dangerous situation, maybe there are enough concerned TOTV members that are willing to spend a little time and money to improve everyone's safety

[Dirigo]

do you tell all golf cart operators who "fly" by you going much faster then the legal 19.6 mph that they are speeding,( I would bet that a very high percent of golf carts can and do go much faster that the legal limit) or do you call the state police when each car goes by you at 80 mph, I doubt it and while I don't condone "gram and gramps" letting their underage grandchildren drive their carts I do not believe its the responsibility of any of us to act as "law enforcement". I would venture a guess that most of the violators know that it is either illegal or a violation and are 'taking a chance" they will not be caught. I unfortunately do not know the answer (perhaps more county sheriffs patrolling our streets and multimodal paths) but I for one would never tell someone what they can or can't do unless it directly affects my safety or infringes on my property ( as in the case of a pet owner allowing their pet to use your lawn to do its business).

I once followed a drunk driver who was all over the road for 10 miles. I was talking to 911 on my cell phone the entire time. When the driver tried to turn around in her own driveway she backed into a snowbank, got stuck, and passed out. There was an infant in a car seat in the back seat.

The EMTs showed up and took the baby to Grandmas house, and the police showed up and took her to jail charged with aggrivated DUI, a felony.

The whole process took half a day out of my life (paperwork and interviews with the police), and while it didn't effect me directly, it sure as heck effected that little baby and all the other drivers she almost hit head-on in those 10 miles I followed her.

Grandma letting little Suzie drive a golf cart on a public road or trail is endangering her grandkid and everyone they meet.

I don't know how to fix it, but it "ain't" right. Perhaps the loss of golf cart privileges for 30 days, a $1,000 fine, and a required golf cart safety course would be a start?

Dirigo

[Vichyssoise]

How many have seen someone driving a golf cart with a dog in their lap? How safe can that be.

[CAL]

I would and have stopped the cart and spoken to the adult about the violation. In most cases people have been unaware of the rule surprisingly enough.

[kaydee]

Just last week there was an article regarding underage golf cart drivers and the penalties. Wish I still had the paper where I read the article so I could positivley pass along the acurate source. The article stated that the Sumter County sherrif WILL TICKET the adult of the said golf cart if a youngster is seen driving/steering the cart and that the said child will have a SUSPENDED LICENSE when he/she becomes of age to apply for a license. Yes, I read that and it struck me as quite a penalty that surely a young child would not understand so it certainly should be the responsibility of the adult to never put their loved one in that risk as well as the danger of the act.
There are many irresponsible people out there.....many grandparents who just won't say no to the grandkids. Bet those grandparents are the same people who don't follow any traffic laws weather in an auto or golf cart.

[The Great Fumar]

If we allow this to continue we could wind up with women driving race cars some day.......


fumar

[tankdvr1950]

interesting post Kaydee....however as i said in my original post....i am sure the sheriff has lots more to do than patrol TV's golf cart paths....kinda tough to do anyway from their patrol car on a public street/highway

bottom line...until there is a tragic accident or two or three...it will not be an enforcement priority

i am somewhat disappointed that there were not more posts or replys to this thread.....i guess the TOTV community does not consider it a real serious issue...too bad

[ouma1938]

Heavens to betsy, Fumar, not woman driving race cars!!! What is this world going to be coming to!

[katezbox]

Heavens to betsy, Fumar, not woman driving race cars!!! What is this world going to be coming to!

Gracious me - next thing you know they will be on the golf course - and not just driving the beer cart!

K

[graciegirl]

I personally have never seen a young child driving a golf cart. I have seen teens driving them. I can't think how you would "stop" the cart from on foot or as you approach them or drive behind them ......... and no matter how you said it, I doubt that it would change the behavior. If they thought they were in the right, they would only be annoyed that you tried to tell them what to do. If it was someone you knew, you could try to point out the danger once they were out of the cart....but it is not an easy problem to solve. If they are dumb enough to allow this, they are probably too dumb to listen to someone lecturing them....in my very humble opinion.

[Whalen]

If we allow this to continue we could wind up with women driving race cars some day.......


fumar

For shame great one, have you not heard of Sarah Fisher or Danica Patrick?
Some day I will tell you why Fumar reminds me of Paris.
:girlneener:

[Talk Host]

This is a very serious situation, and it seem to have drifted off topic. Oh well.:confused:

[mfp509]

I wonder if we, as a group, could arrange a meeting with Law Enforcement representatives from Marion, Sumter, and Lake counties and voice our concerns sighting incidences and/or "close calls" we have seen or experienced with young children driving golf carts. At least it would be "on the record". We will find out where LE stands on this and they will know our concerns. Or could we meet with The Villages Public Safety division first? Just a thought for us concerned citizens. Nothing ventured - nothing gained.

[tucson]

If you see a child, in this case a six year old, driving a golf cart on the street, (Today on Legacy Lane) and grandma is sitting on the passenger side, and you say nothing, and later the cart is involved in an accident and somebody is hurt or killed, do you share in the blame?

(IN this case, cars and carts were whizzing by in both directions and the kid was driving about 5 miles an hour, with her rear end on the edge of the seat so she would reach the pedals and her nose up over the steering wheel so she could see.)

Note to Grandma......"....shame on you....shame....shame.....shame."

JLK

When I saw a elderly lady driving her big 4door sedan down a golf cart path on BV Blvd a couple of years ago, I flagged down a Village Watch truck and told him to go and take care of the incident. My point is; isn't this the job of The Village Watch , aren't these (life & death issues) more important than "investigating what ppl put on their front lawns"???????????

[katezbox]

This is a very serious situation, and it seem to have drifted off topic. Oh well.:confused:

TH,

After my post (as one of the major drifters) I thought this as well. :shrug:This is an issue that you have raised several times in the time I have been on this forum.

mfp makes a good point. How do we do more than talk about this online? Who are the right people to approach?

[Talk Host]

When I saw a elderly lady driving her big 4door sedan down a golf cart path on BV Blvd a couple of years ago, I flagged down a Village Watch truck and told him to go and take care of the incident. My point is; isn't this the job of The Village Watch , aren't these (life & death issues) more important than "investigating what ppl put on their front lawns"???????????


No, this is not the job of Village Watch. They are not law enforcement officers and will be very quick to tell you that. I don't blame them for not trying to enforce the law, it's often times dangerous work and they aren't trained or commissioned.

It's up to police authority and The Villages, at least in Marion County, is just a speck on the county radar.

[Taltarzac]

No, this is not the job of Village Watch. They are not law enforcement officers and will be very quick to tell you that. I don't blame them for not trying to enforce the law, it's often times dangerous work and they aren't trained or commissioned.

It's up to police authority and The Villages, at least in Marion County, is just a speck on the county radar.

I do not get up to the Marion County side of TV very often but it only seems like a small percentage of the homes in TV are in Marion County??

[billethkid]

Pre-requisite for being granted a registration...a class to learn the rules....just like the rules of the road for a motor vehicle. Yes charge a reasonable fee to be used for admin costs, etc. Then affix a decal in a prominent location on the golf car (just like a lot of country clubs do!!).

As unpopular as it may be....it would definitely bring improvement....but just like motor vehicles there will always be violators.

As prominant a role golf cars (and traffic circles) play in most all of our lives here in TV, one would think they would be included in some sort of orientation when buying/renting here in TV.......nah....that makes too much sense....

BTK

[katezbox]

Pre-requisite for being granted a registration...a class to learn the rules....just like the rules of the road for a motor vehicle. Yes charge a reasonable fee to be used for admin costs, etc. Then affix a decal in a prominent location on the golf car (just like a lot of country clubs do!!).

As unpopular as it may be....it would definitely bring improvement....but just like motor vehicles there will always be violators.

As prominant a role golf cars (and traffic circles) play in most all of our lives here in TV, one would think they would be included in some sort of orientation when buying/renting here in TV.......nah....that makes too much sense....

BTK

Agree that a class is a great idea. None of us know what we don't know.

Not sure why we would need more regulation/fees. It seems there are already rules in place - they just aren't being enforced.

JMO

Kate

[dillywho]

This is an e-mail I sent to John Rohan and his response. Sounds like TV would like to see this problem go away, too.


John,

I don't know if you are the person to handle this. If not, perhaps you could pass it along.

There is considerable discussion on the talkofthevillages.com website about small children seen driving golf carts. I would like to suggest that when residents pick up guest cards for their visitors that they be cautioned about the age restrictions and the consequences of allowing this behavior. They already tell us that those under 19 must be accompanied by an adult, what pools are restricted, etc. It might even be good to put it in print on the forms also.

Thanks.


That is a great idea let me see if we can get some language added to our guest ID card stock and on our website

[tankdvr1950]

Dillywho....this is good news...it would also be a plus if The Villages Golf Cars would also hand any renters or buyers a flyer stating the rules of the road for golf carts

[dillywho]

That's a great idea, tankdvr1950. Maybe they, too, could address the issue from both a safety first and consequences angle.

[SteveZ]

What we are discussing is the result of TV growing pains - the more people here, the more pronounced the problems.

I can't disagree with the concept of cart registration, as that would cut down on several problems. The question is - who does it and what can be enforced? State laws cover vehicle registrations, and carts not "street legal" are exempt.

That would require CDD rules for cart registration to drive on private property controlled by CDDs, and thus the CDDs would have to control cart registration. Enforcement of any CDD rules would require an enforcement entity to observe and record violations, and subsequently suspend cart use on private property.

So, because of a few idiots who let little kids drive the carts, we would all have to fund (it's not free!) a registration and enforcement scheme that the idiots would argue and fight (and possibly win) to get overturned, and would ignore anyway - after all, they and their grandkids are the center of the universe....

If the problem is serious enough (and who thinks it isn't?), then where's The Villages Daily Sun and the TV Channel 2 news on all of this? I don't remember ever seeing anything on the TV media stressing the illegality and danger (maybe they have done reports, but darned few).

[l2ridehd]

It's all about education. Most people will follow the rules if they know what the rules are. So adding words to the guest pass registration, flyer's, maybe bumper stickers for carts, any way to inform people that allowing minors to drive golf carts is breaking the rules and could cause injury or damage or worse would go a long way to solving the problem. Golf carts are not toys and should not be treated as such. Those that rent carts have statements in the lease that carts are not to be driven by minors.

Most golf courses do not allow minors to drive carts. If everyone who saw a minor driving, told the parents/grandparents that it was not legal to allow that, it might help. But it takes everyone doing it, not just a few with everyone else ignoring it. You are just protecting yourself and others. Safty first is a good mantra to have.

[Talk Host]

It's all about education. Most people will follow the rules if they know what the rules are. So adding words to the guest pass registration, flyer's, maybe bumper stickers for carts, any way to inform people that allowing minors to drive golf carts is breaking the rules and could cause injury or damage or worse would go a long way to solving the problem. Golf carts are not toys and should not be treated as such. Those that rent carts have statements in the lease that carts are not to be driven by minors.

Most golf courses do not allow minors to drive carts. If everyone who saw a minor driving, told the parents/grandparents that it was not legal to allow that, it might help. But it takes everyone doing it, not just a few with everyone else ignoring it. You are just protecting yourself and others. Safty first is a good mantra to have.

Wouldn't you think that anybody old enough to buy a house in The Villages would know that it's dangerous and stupid to let a child drive in traffic?

[RCT]

Wouldn't you think that anybody old enough to buy a house in The Villages would know that it's dangerous and stupid to let a child drive in traffic? I don't know about that, these are the same people that go and have 5 or more drinks then get in their cars or carts. Also, I think many DO know the rules, yet ignore them, or just can't say no to that persistent child.

[mfp509]

A couple of weeks ago, I emailed Public Safety concerning underage golf cart drivers and suggested that flyers be inserted in the utilities bill as someone had suggested awhile back. That is an excellent idea. I did receive an answer from John Rohan that he would look into it. I think we are making them aware that there is a lot of concern about this.

[tankdvr1950]

Finally...this topic is generating some interest :a040:

My sense is that this is probably a local issue...although i am sure it is a concern at other golf cart communities in the state, its probably impossible to get state law changed....likewise its probably not possible to get the county government to make any changes to allow the sheriff to enforce laws on TV's cart paths....so i guess it falls to the local government entity

we all know, that unless pressure is applied to the appropriate governmental body...things don't get done...so maybe...in addition to the good suggestions already generated in this thread, we need to put some pressure on our government leaders to help address the issue

while its only a small number of idiots who are causing the problem, we are all potentially affected by their irresponsible actions....in my mind...its no different than driving an auto (or for that matter...a golf cart) while drunk....we are all at risk

getting the Daily Sun and Ch2 involved, The Villages Golf Cars, TV itself, contacting the CDD....all great ideas...but....how is the effort coordinated to insure that it moves forward and does not just turn into words typed on an electronic bulletin board (i.e. TOTV) and goes no further....and how is this issue brought to the forefront for all TV residents to see, hear and consider??

[katezbox]

Finally...this topic is generating some interest :a040:

My sense is that this is probably a local issue...although i am sure it is a concern at other golf cart communities in the state, its probably impossible to get state law changed....likewise its probably not possible to get the county government to make any changes to allow the sheriff to enforce laws on TV's cart paths....so i guess it falls to the local government entity

we all know, that unless pressure is applied to the appropriate governmental body...things don't get done...so maybe...in addition to the good suggestions already generated in this thread, we need to put some pressure on our government leaders to help address the issue

while its only a small number of idiots who are causing the problem, we are all potentially affected by their irresponsible actions....in my mind...its no different than driving an auto (or for that matter...a golf cart) while drunk....we are all at risk

getting the Daily Sun and Ch2 involved, The Villages Golf Cars, TV itself, contacting the CDD....all great ideas...but....how is the effort coordinated to insure that it moves forward and does not just turn into words typed on an electronic bulletin board (i.e. TOTV) and goes no further....and how is this issue brought to the forefront for all TV residents to see, hear and consider??


Hi Tank,

Well said. The RDOG group is holding a focus group meeting on dog parks today. Maybe a similar initiative could be started around cart safety. Not all the unsafe behavior is illegal - but all is definitely stupid.

Of course a focus group would need a leader who is passionate about change....