View Full Version : Curious question....
Guest
04-19-2009, 06:57 PM
How folks feel about the following question.....
We hardly even cover on the MSM (main stream media) or question on this board or any others, or get upset about a US Drone attacking a village in Afghanastan and KILLING INNOCENT VILLAGERS...
BUT....
We seem to get all excited and threaten impeachment, etc because there was harsh punishment given to folks who HAVE killed....have said they WANT to kill and that includes those involved in 9/11 !!!!
Folks have posted on here how we, as Americans, are better people and should not reduce ourselves to "torture" folks....BUT WHERE ARE THEY condemning the drone killing of INNOCENT FOLKS ?
Just curious !!!!
Guest
04-19-2009, 07:34 PM
Except for rhetorical purposes or to insinuate that we are bad people, who told you that they were innocents? I do not doubt that there were some civilians killed, who were not the intended target. That can be proven. Innocents, I am not so sure.
As for why a big deal is not made about it? There is in some circles. I feel however that many people view these casualties as collateral to the intended mission.
It is sad that enemy soldiers choose to camp among the civilian population who supports them, attempting to make an unclear target.
Yoda
Guest
04-19-2009, 07:42 PM
Except for rhetorical purposes or to insinuate that we are bad people, who told you that they were innocents? I do not doubt that there were some civilians killed, who were not the intended target. That can be proven. Innocents, I am not so sure.
As for why a big deal is not made about it? There is in some circles. I feel however that many people view these casualties as collateral to the intended mission.
It is sad that enemy soldiers choose to camp among the civilian population who supports them, attempting to make an unclear target.
Yoda
So this killing is ok, but our "torture" is something that we talk about daily almost and act as if those who ordered it, legalized it, carried it out, are demons of some sort.
Viewing innocent citizens as "collateral to the intended mission.", makes me wonder about what we should call those we "tortured"..those who have already killed, planned killings, and threatened to kill.
This is not a defense of, excuse for any inhumane behavior...simply wondering how one who is so violently opposed to what is called "torture" can simply pass off the KILLINGS as "collateral" (and not talking specifically of you YODA...simply borrowed your term)
Guest
04-19-2009, 08:38 PM
So this killing is ok, but our "torture" is something that we talk about daily almost and act as if those who ordered it, legalized it, carried it out, are demons of some sort.
Viewing innocent citizens as "collateral to the intended mission.", makes me wonder about what we should call those we "tortured"..those who have already killed, planned killings, and threatened to kill.
This is not a defense of, excuse for any inhumane behavior...simply wondering how one who is so violently opposed to what is called "torture" can simply pass off the KILLINGS as "collateral" (and not talking specifically of you YODA...simply borrowed your term)
You keep saying innocent civilians. Civilians yes. Innocent, not proven.
You changed to torture. If you must. I have read the great report on torture that was released the other day. I was shocked. I went through more than that in basic training. If that's all we were doing and calling it torture, I am disappointed. By all the talk over the years, I was sure that we were braking bones, sticking pins under fingernails or worse. Perhaps we should have been beheading captives as our "Peace loving" enemy does?
Just as a matter of comparison, when the British attacked the colonists during the revolution they were in fact attacking civilians. Do you think that they were all "innocent" civilians?
Bucco, obviously you don't like what is going on. Tell us, how would you prosecute this war?
Yoda
Guest
04-19-2009, 10:18 PM
of war being waged...using 21st Century mindset....war goes back to the dark ages...and except for the weapons not much has changed...and of course the 24/7 media is ever present.....people die during war.
The wars of today kill far fewer than any wars in history. None of this is intended to be defending of the killing of wars, innocent or other wise....only to present a point of view.
I do support the military doing what ever it takes to get information to save American lives and capture and or kill those who have seorn to kill as many Americans as possible. A lot of the do gooders would change their tune if their families were in the cross hairs of those who would pull the trigger in a heart beat no matter who it is....man, woman, child, elder doesn't matter.
With wars comes death....a fact of life since records have been kept.
Only in America do we make an issue of debating the right from wrong based on the 24/7 media hyper-sensationalization of a war tactics results.
Such an ill defined waste of time. BTK
Guest
04-19-2009, 11:25 PM
It is a fraud to say we are at war. When you are at war it is with a country. Germany, Russia, Spain. Military men in military uniforms trying to kill each other with the standard issue rifles and bombs. Terrorist's work on a different timetable. Catch Americans or allies and chop off their respective heads. No uniform of their country as they have none. Just Allah. IED's to me are a little more radical that water boarding. When you are water boarded you cannot die and you know that from the outset. It is how long you can last feeling uncomfortable without talking. On the other hand capture by the terrorist gets you a 10 speech read and a saber sawing off your head. That you can die from. Let's put the running of wars in the hands of the rightful owners the Pentagon and the Military and stop making America look foolish in airing out our dirty laundry as it were. Lastly, stop bowing to Kings and shaking hands and yucking it up with dictators that have already trashed America.
Guest
04-20-2009, 07:19 AM
Peter, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!
Guest
04-20-2009, 07:30 AM
You keep saying innocent civilians. Civilians yes. Innocent, not proven.
You changed to torture. If you must. I have read the great report on torture that was released the other day. I was shocked. I went through more than that in basic training. If that's all we were doing and calling it torture, I am disappointed. By all the talk over the years, I was sure that we were braking bones, sticking pins under fingernails or worse. Perhaps we should have been beheading captives as our "Peace loving" enemy does?
Just as a matter of comparison, when the British attacked the colonists during the revolution they were in fact attacking civilians. Do you think that they were all "innocent" civilians?
Bucco, obviously you don't like what is going on. Tell us, how would you prosecute this war?
Yoda
I think we may agree YODA, although you feel a bit more strongly than I about the possible innocence of those killed in Afghanastan !
My problem has been reading the last few days about the released report and the shock shown, the righteous indignation shown about how we treated folks who have already killed, assisted in killing, etc. that were captured. Then hearing almost NO indignation about the killing by the US with drones. Not even reported much but we have specials on the treatment of prisoners.
Seems to me this is more political than real. I support both the drone attacks and also doing what is necessary to get information from folks who have a mission to kill my fellow americans.
How can you be so publicly outraged..so "embarassed" by our treatment of killers in captivity and so blase about killing possible innocent citizens ?
Guest
04-20-2009, 02:18 PM
In today's paper there was a political cartoon showing pirates in a small boat looking for prey...they see a ship with an American flag and the caption says...not that one...they hit back.
That is exactly the way we need to have ourselves repositioned....as you say not yukking it up with the enemy.
Obama has a personal agenda to be liked by the leadership of our enemies.
Not until another 911 event or worse will Obama understand the obligation of the office of POTUS....if then!!!
BTK
Guest
04-20-2009, 03:50 PM
The only people concerned with the definitions of "war," "police action," "conflict," etc. are those folk who are umteen hundred/thousand miles away from the smell of cordite, torn flesh and scorched blood. For those semanticians, it's an intellectual matter, while for those whose olfactory senses are put to the worst test it does not matter what label is tacked to the hell around you.
Armchair quarterbacking is an American tradition. It's easy to sit at a distance, away from the contact and come with the shoulda, woulda, coulda for any situation. It's even easier to create rules that don't affect whether you or yours will live or die by virtue of their image to others.
I personally don't have any problem with Pres. Obama meeting with any head-of-state on the planet - friend, foe, ally or fence rider. That's part of his job. I don't even have a problem with him meeting anyone more than halfway, and if he or anyone in his entourage screws up with a piece of local protocol or does something the French think is diplomatically dumb, big deal! What I hope he doesn't do is get himself snookered like Pres. Roosevelt (regarding Japan) did in 1941. As long as he realizes these folk are more sly and cunning, smarter (never underestiimate the other guy!)and more experienced at international politics than he or his entourage is, then it's okay.
Guest
04-20-2009, 03:53 PM
I'm glad that the U.S. struck back at the pirates in the way that they did. Now there is a lot of international attention to this problem.
On the other hand, you could argue that it takes more confidence, vision and understanding of world issues for the POTUS to reach out vs. staying in ones comfort level, surrounded only by like minded confidants.
Guest
04-20-2009, 06:22 PM
I think we may agree YODA, although you feel a bit more strongly than I about the possible innocence of those killed in Afghanastan !
My problem has been reading the last few days about the released report and the shock shown, the righteous indignation shown about how we treated folks who have already killed, assisted in killing, etc. that were captured. Then hearing almost NO indignation about the killing by the US with drones. Not even reported much but we have specials on the treatment of prisoners.
Seems to me this is more political than real. I support both the drone attacks and also doing what is necessary to get information from folks who have a mission to kill my fellow americans.
How can you be so publicly outraged..so "embarassed" by our treatment of killers in captivity and so blase about killing possible innocent citizens ?
I agree that the outrage may be more political than real. I do not have faith in our president. I do not think that he has a sincere bone in his body. He has a plan for us. A plan that most of us reject now and will at the next election.
Do not misunderstand me. I do not care one bit about how we treat terrorists, un-uniformed combatants or bottom feeding scum sucking Muslims who wish me and mine ill. I would be fine with the death of a thousand cuts or the bamboo shoot up the butt. Bamboo shoots grow a foot per night.
We will not be defeated on the battle field. We will not be defeated in our homes. It was they who declared war on us. We are within our rights to inflict such horrendous punishment upon our enemies that they will never dare to cross our paths again.
All of this is meant with love and turning the other cheek.
Yoda
Guest
04-20-2009, 06:53 PM
I agree that the outrage may be more political than real. I do not have faith in our president. I do not think that he has a sincere bone in his body. He has a plan for us. A plan that most of us reject now and will at the next election.
Do not misunderstand me. I do not care one bit about how we treat terrorists, un-uniformed combatants or bottom feeding scum sucking Muslims who wish me and mine ill. I would be fine with the death of a thousand cuts or the bamboo shoot up the butt. Bamboo shoots grow a foot per night.
We will not be defeated on the battle field. We will not be defeated in our homes. It was they who declared war on us. We are within our rights to inflict such horrendous punishment upon our enemies that they will never dare to cross our paths again.
All of this is meant with love and turning the other cheek.
Yoda
Heard somewhere today..not sure where to be honest....that they DID NOT release ALL of the memos....never released those memos that showed the RESULTS of the bad things we supposedly did to them and how it helped the country.
Guest
04-20-2009, 07:14 PM
I think of the innocent people killed by drones and feel bad about it. Unfortunately for the children and women, their homes may be housing terrorists at night and even a smart bomb can't pick people out of a building. While I really don't feel "sorry" for terrorists being tortured, I would hope if we abided by the Geneva agreements or non-torture for captureds, so would other countries that might capture our young men and women. Even John McCain has come out and said you do not get good information from torturing.
Guest
04-20-2009, 08:02 PM
I think of the innocent people killed by drones and feel bad about it. Unfortunately for the children and women, their homes may be housing terrorists at night and even a smart bomb can't pick people out of a building. While I really don't feel "sorry" for terrorists being tortured, I would hope if we abided by the Geneva agreements or non-torture for captureds, so would other countries that might capture our young men and women. Even John McCain has come out and said you do not get good information from torturing.
I admire your hold on idealism but the "hope if we abided by the Geneva agreements or non-torture for captureds, so would other countries that might capture our young men and women." ship has sailed. They even behead and kill correspondents.
NOBODY WANTS any torture at any time. If the memos showing the results from the hard life these killers lived is ever made public perhaps folks will feel different.
I just find it interesting the way we seem to "rationalize" the killing of any innocents from the drones but are standing tall in defense of the Geneva Convention and being mean to killers of americans !
Guest
04-20-2009, 08:53 PM
Let's understand how interrogation works and what "torture" does.
Most people tell more for fear of what is going to happen to them than to stop what is occurring to them. Persons actually "tortured" will say anything, agree to anything, and thus are rarely credible. However, those in proximity of persons being "tortured" often get stressed out due to anticipation, and the goal is to get them to sing like canaries. It is an effective technique when targeted towards persons considered psychologically vulnerable and physically weak.
So, what we have is another situation where people unskilled in intelligence activities, and basing their knowledge on what they've "learned" via Christie and Fleming novels, condemn how the business of information gathering and corroboration is conducted.
The real world is a tough place, yet many still view it through rose-colored spectacles from their protected towers.
Guest
04-20-2009, 09:21 PM
I admire your hold on idealism but the "hope if we abided by the Geneva agreements or non-torture for captureds, so would other countries that might capture our young men and women." ship has sailed. They even behead and kill correspondents.
NOBODY WANTS any torture at any time. If the memos showing the results from the hard life these killers lived is ever made public perhaps folks will feel different.
I just find it interesting the way we seem to "rationalize" the killing of any innocents from the drones but are standing tall in defense of the Geneva Convention and being mean to killers of americans !
1 Geneva agreements do not apply.
2 War is hell.
3 Shipt happens.
4 Many people live hard lives but don't kill people.
Next you will want us to drop care packages to Osama bin ladin (sp)
Yoda
Guest
04-21-2009, 06:43 AM
1 Geneva agreements do not apply.
2 War is hell.
3 Shipt happens.
4 Many people live hard lives but don't kill people.
Next you will want us to drop care packages to Osama bin ladin (sp)
Yoda
Boy have you misunderstood me !!!
I am FOR the drones....I found nothing wrong with what we did in GTMO !
My thread was aimed at those who posted on here during the campaign and other times expressing their shock and dismay that we may push these killers we had in detention, BUT ARE ABSENT in expressing shock at the drones !!!
Guest
04-21-2009, 01:49 PM
Yoda & Steve point out a real disconnect that modern technology has created in wartime activities. It seems a lot "cleaner" to use drones to kill the enemy than to have to capture them and treat them with any sort of treaty-obligated humane-ness.
The Japanese were very aware of this, and were far more merciless to captured soldiers than even the Germans. Stalin, too, was no pussycat.
On the other hand, where we are in a situation where our own people don't speak Arabic and the loyalty of translators are questionable at best, how effective is interrogation/torture? We're dealing not just with a language problem, but a cultural one as well. We already know that Jihadists see death as a goal to be sought, not avoided.
Three points about the whole interrogation thing bothers me.
1.) If waterboarding is so effective, why was it necessary to carry it out on one lone person 163 times? And how can that now NOT be called cruel torture v. "information gathering?"
2.) If the ideological stupidity of "Don't Ask/Don't Tell" had been employed to help our nation, instead of to satisfy some homophobic egos, the policy would have been modified to allow the 50 discharged Arabic translators to remain in the military and help with the War effort.
Apparently it is ok to keep violent felons & white supremists in the military, but not individuals who did nothing wrong in civilian life except learn how to speak an incredibly different language that our war effort desperately needed. What priorities and military leadership did THAT illustrate?
3. I would argue that the Geneva Conventions always apply. We signed them as such, and unless we wish to change the language in them, we should abide by them. It is by observing them that we would then be able to bring violators to international justice. As it stands now, our former Vice-President and Defense Secretary can't leave the country for fear of arrest for war crimes, and a whole slew of lawyers, including one who is now a federal judge, will soon be facing the justice of the American people.
We are a nation of laws. The entire "operation" of our torture machine was developed not by experienced military leaders but by ideologues who seemed not to care that they knew nothing about the international rules of law. Ideology won out over professionalism. THe philosophy is no different than that of Stalin and a hundred other all-powerful political tin-horns.
Guest
04-21-2009, 03:29 PM
Boy have you misunderstood me !!!
I am FOR the drones....I found nothing wrong with what we did in GTMO !
My thread was aimed at those who posted on here during the campaign and other times expressing their shock and dismay that we may push these killers we had in detention, BUT ARE ABSENT in expressing shock at the drones !!!
Sorry if i misunderstood you. I'm old.:shrug: please accept my apology.
Yoda
Guest
04-21-2009, 04:00 PM
Yoda & Steve point out a real disconnect that modern technology has created in wartime activities. It seems a lot "cleaner" to use drones to kill the enemy than to have to capture them and treat them with any sort of treaty-obligated humane-ness.
The Japanese were very aware of this, and were far more merciless to captured soldiers than even the Germans. Stalin, too, was no pussycat.
On the other hand, where we are in a situation where our own people don't speak Arabic and the loyalty of translators are questionable at best, how effective is interrogation/torture? We're dealing not just with a language problem, but a cultural one as well. We already know that Jihadists see death as a goal to be sought, not avoided.
Three points about the whole interrogation thing bothers me.
1.) If waterboarding is so effective, why was it necessary to carry it out on one lone person 163 times? And how can that now NOT be called cruel torture v. "information gathering?"
2.) If the ideological stupidity of "Don't Ask/Don't Tell" had been employed to help our nation, instead of to satisfy some homophobic egos, the policy would have been modified to allow the 50 discharged Arabic translators to remain in the military and help with the War effort.
Apparently it is ok to keep violent felons & white supremists in the military, but not individuals who did nothing wrong in civilian life except learn how to speak an incredibly different language that our war effort desperately needed. What priorities and military leadership did THAT illustrate?
3. I would argue that the Geneva Conventions always apply. We signed them as such, and unless we wish to change the language in them, we should abide by them. It is by observing them that we would then be able to bring violators to international justice. As it stands now, our former Vice-President and Defense Secretary can't leave the country for fear of arrest for war crimes, and a whole slew of lawyers, including one who is now a federal judge, will soon be facing the justice of the American people.
We are a nation of laws. The entire "operation" of our torture machine was developed not by experienced military leaders but by ideologues who seemed not to care that they knew nothing about the international rules of law. Ideology won out over professionalism. THe philosophy is no different than that of Stalin and a hundred other all-powerful political tin-horns.
Point 1
They did it 163 times because every time they did it, they hit the jackpot.
Point 2
Not to sound like an Islamophobe but there are valid reasons why Arabic interpreters might be prejudged as a security risk. Being a good Muslim and the rule of taqiyya. They could also be influenced by a fatwa from millions of places. I don't say that it is right but I do say that it could be justifiable.
Point 3
There are reasons that a person could be summarily killed in a combat theater. Being a combatant, out of uniform. Sabotage. Those 2 cover a lot of them. These are not a problem with Geneva that I ever heard of.
Throughout time it has been the looser who is prosecuted for war crimes. One would have to be an idiot to want to change that.
Any country fool enough to try to prosecute our former Vice-President and Defense Secretary would in time suffer such consequences as to boggle the mind. This is why Spain has toned down its rhetoric. Any attempt to prosecute a member of the winning team for pure political reasons would only serve the lefty loony supporters of out present administration. It is thought by most Americans that these men were defending them. Political suicide.
Yoda
Guest
04-21-2009, 06:40 PM
Yoda - what did we win??
Guest
04-21-2009, 08:47 PM
Point 1
They did it 163 times because every time they did it, they hit the jackpot.
Point 2
Not to sound like an Islamophobe but there are valid reasons why Arabic interpreters might be prejudged as a security risk. Being a good Muslim and the rule of taqiyya. They could also be influenced by a fatwa from millions of places. I don't say that it is right but I do say that it could be justifiable.
Point 3
There are reasons that a person could be summarily killed in a combat theater. Being a combatant, out of uniform. Sabotage. Those 2 cover a lot of them. These are not a problem with Geneva that I ever heard of.
Throughout time it has been the looser who is prosecuted for war crimes. One would have to be an idiot to want to change that.
Any country fool enough to try to prosecute our former Vice-President and Defense Secretary would in time suffer such consequences as to boggle the mind. This is why Spain has toned down its rhetoric. Any attempt to prosecute a member of the winning team for pure political reasons would only serve the lefty loony supporters of out present administration. It is thought by most Americans that these men were defending them. Political suicide.
Yoda
Agree.
Point 1 - there's a big difference between theory and practice. If it works, don't stop.
Point 2 - A serious problem with Arabic interpreters (foreign native, 1st generation US) is whether the person's religion affects the interpretation. If a Sunni Muslim translates for a Shi'ite Muslin, or a Copt translates for any Muslim, or any of several combinations, the interpretation itself can be suspect. Add into the mix gender bias based on religious beliefs and the problem continues. These problems have been noted for decades by the Department of Justice and the courts, and now the Department of Defense enters the equation and it gets more severe. It's just not a simple situation.
Point 3 - The Geneva Conventions were meant to be rules to be applied where the opponents agreed by signature to the Conventions to be bound by them. When one or more of the opponents are not signatory(ies) to the Conventions, the Conventions are not binding.
As far as the International Criminal Court is concerned, the last time i checked the USA, Russia and China are not signatories to it, and it has no jurisdiction on non-signatories. So, "international justice" is a smoke-and-mirrors term.
We are indeed a nation of law - but our laws! There was no "torture machine" and the practice of "aggressive interrogation" is standard operation procedure for every intelligence entity on this planet. It's not pretty, and it's not nice, and it's darned tough - but that's the nature of being in harm's way and trying to keep people from being turned into bio-waste by the actions of the opponent.
When I was in the cross-hairs of national opponents, I appreciated every attempt by "aggressive interrogators" to gain tactical information because they made it more possible for me being here now. Given the opportunity, I'd buy them all a beer....
Guest
04-21-2009, 10:49 PM
To understand the use of water boarding, particularly in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, KSM, we need to look at the man. KSM was not just the architect of 9/11, he was in charge of ALL Al Qaeda operations worldwide. It was not what he had done/planned that we were interested in, although that list was extensive: the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, the bombing of the nightclub in Bale, the attack on the USS Cole, the attacks of the US embassies in Africa, etc. He repeated bragged that with, "...this right hand I cut off the head of the Jew, Daniel Pearl".
The men and women of our CIA have much better things to do than try to recreate what has happened in the past - their job is to learn what is coming and they are professionals at that. KSM was the leader of all AQ ops and knew what was planned for the next decade: The destruction of the Sears tower using four tanker trucks - not just how, but who and when; the plan to blow up ten planes over the Atlantic on one day, (did you think the English discovered this without having any idea what might be underway?); the idea for a shoe bomber, the planned 9/11 equivalent attacks on LA, and the list goes on and on. We will never know how many attacks were thwarted by the information we got from him, but no less an authority that George Tennat has said that it was more valuable than the rest of the information brought in by the CIA and the FBI.
We know from what KSM told the CIA that Al Qaeda is working to obtain weapons of mass destruction, particularly nuclear weapons and that they intend to use them against the United States first - Israel and Western Europe will follow. Imagine what ten, even small load nuclear weapons, exploded across cities in the United States would do to us. The fact that we could strike back one hundred times harder at the Muslim world is irrelevant. As the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has said,” Jews and Christians fear death, we embrace it."
Radical Islam is a new and different threat than we have ever faced before. We are used to dealing with enemies that are ‘rational’ in our framework of thinking. Their goals are to subjugate the rest of the world and herald in the coming of the 12th Imam, aka, the Mahdi. There is no compromise, no reasoning, no coming to an understanding here.
Some of us wonder, why water boarding so many times? If water boarding, sometimes described as torture, did not work the first time why do we believe that it will work the tenth, hundredth or thousandth time? How do we ever know if we got the truth or just a made-up story, through water boarding whether you believe it to be torture or not?
The answer is very straightforward – the CIA interrogators know their profession – they use whatever techniques or combination thereof and outside checking of facts to know when they were true and when they were not. As to the number of times it took that too is understandable when once again we look at KSM as a man. He is an unwavering Muslim who believes without reservation that what he has done is right and Allah blesses what he has planned to do. On top of all that, he is a very intelligent and incredibly brave man; as well as being extremely competent as what he does. I believe that one of the great mistakes we have made is to underestimate our enemy. They are strong, intelligent and resourceful.
I have gone on far too long, but do want to say in closing that I am deeply concerned that the nation I love is becoming too much in love with political correctness and seeking approval of other nations, rather than working for our survival and the extension of liberty to other nations.
Guest
04-21-2009, 11:10 PM
To understand the use of water boarding, particularly in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, KSM, we need to look at the man. KSM was not just the architect of 9/11, he was in charge of ALL Al Qaeda operations worldwide. It was not what he had done/planned that we were interested in, although that list was extensive: the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, the bombing of the nightclub in Bale, the attack on the USS Cole, the attacks of the US embassies in Africa, etc. He repeated bragged that with, "...this right hand I cut off the head of the Jew, Daniel Pearl".
The men and women of our CIA have much better things to do than try to recreate what has happened in the past - their job is to learn what is coming and they are professionals at that. KSM was the leader of all AQ ops and knew what was planned for the next decade: The destruction of the Sears tower using four tanker trucks - not just how, but who and when; the plan to blow up ten planes over the Atlantic on one day, (did you think the English discovered this without having any idea what might be underway?); the idea for a shoe bomber, the planned 9/11 equivalent attacks on LA, and the list goes on and on. We will never know how many attacks were thwarted by the information we got from him, but no less an authority that George Tennat has said that it was more valuable than the rest of the information brought in by the CIA and the FBI.
We know from what KSM told the CIA that Al Qaeda is working to obtain weapons of mass destruction, particularly nuclear weapons and that they intend to use them against the United States first - Israel and Western Europe will follow. Imagine what ten, even small load nuclear weapons, exploded across cities in the United States would do to us. The fact that we could strike back one hundred times harder at the Muslim world is irrelevant. As the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has said,” Jews and Christians fear death, we embrace it."
Radical Islam is a new and different threat than we have ever faced before. We are used to dealing with enemies that are ‘rational’ in our framework of thinking. Their goals are to subjugate the rest of the world and herald in the coming of the 12th Imam, aka, the Mahdi. There is no compromise, no reasoning, no coming to an understanding here.
Some of us wonder, why water boarding so many times? If water boarding, sometimes described as torture, did not work the first time why do we believe that it will work the tenth, hundredth or thousandth time? How do we ever know if we got the truth or just a made-up story, through water boarding whether you believe it to be torture or not?
The answer is very straightforward – the CIA interrogators know their profession – they use whatever techniques or combination thereof and outside checking of facts to know when they were true and when they were not. As to the number of times it took that too is understandable when once again we look at KSM as a man. He is an unwavering Muslim who believes without reservation that what he has done is right and Allah blesses what he has planned to do. On top of all that, he is a very intelligent and incredibly brave man; as well as being extremely competent as what he does. I believe that one of the great mistakes we have made is to underestimate our enemy. They are strong, intelligent and resourceful.
I have gone on far too long, but do want to say in closing that I am deeply concerned that the nation I love is becoming too much in love with political correctness and seeking approval of other nations, rather than working for our survival and the extension of liberty to other nations.
:agree: Outstanding post.
Guest
04-21-2009, 11:25 PM
Radical Islam is a new and different threat than we have ever faced before. We are used to dealing with enemies that are ‘rational’ in our framework of thinking. Their goals are to subjugate the rest of the world and herald in the coming of the 12th Imam, aka, the Mahdi. There is no compromise, no reasoning, no coming to an understanding here.
I must say that I agree with most of what you say. You seem to have a firm grasp on the issue.
However, the paragraph starting with "Radical Islam," misses the true situation. You describe as radical, those who are good Muslims. Those that you describe are following the Koran and the several hadith. They are doing what Islam says to do. It would be the bad Muslims (radicals) who would be least likely to behave in the way that you describe "Radical Muslims." This is what most non Muslims do not understand. It is the good Muslim who, if he follows his faith, wants to subjugate, convert or kill us. Remember, they are doing Gods work. We should not die of ignorance.
Yoda
Guest
04-22-2009, 07:16 AM
what ever it takes....the only way to deal with the likes of those sworn to kill as many Americans as possible...man, woman, children...anybody!!!
There is no room for the so called political correctness which is merely a fancy term for NOT doing what is RIGHT/CORRECT.
Walk softly and carry a very big stick....and use it!!!!!!!!
BTK
Guest
04-22-2009, 12:06 PM
Interesting developments today.....
"President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.
“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday."
AND WORTH NOTING...
"Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
“I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/
Guest
04-22-2009, 12:50 PM
Interesting developments today.....
"President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.
“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday."
AND WORTH NOTING...
"Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
“I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/I am not in the least surprised.
Question: If anyone of you had a darling sweet 6 year old daughter who was kidnapped by a pair of prior conviction rapists/sociopaths and 1 of the 2 perps was captured and knew where your daughter was... and hypothetically you could, would you authorize these coersive interrogation techniques to get the perp to talk?
Guest
04-22-2009, 02:37 PM
is reflective of a society that has a problem with calling a spade a spade.
I maintain doing WHAT EVER IT TAKES to get the required information.
Those who hide behind the pretense of the hallowed high ground of...we are more humane and don't do that sort of thing or we use coercive interrogation techniques is bull honkey!!! They too will sing to a different tune when the have a personal stake in the equation instead of an intellectual, uninvolved hypothesis.
WHAT EVER IT TAKES!!!!!!!!!
BTK
Guest
04-22-2009, 03:48 PM
is reflective of a society that has a problem with calling a spade a spade.
I maintain doing WHAT EVER IT TAKES to get the required information.
Those who hide behind the pretense of the hallowed high ground of...we are more humane and don't do that sort of thing or we use coercive interrogation techniques is bull honkey!!! They too will sing to a different tune when the have a personal stake in the equation instead of an intellectual, uninvolved hypothesis.
WHAT EVER IT TAKES!!!!!!!!!
BTKI was being a bit cynical... I believe that is the politically correct terminology/
Guest
04-22-2009, 04:02 PM
My take on the entire thing at this point....
1. I am not one who is FOR torture, however, I think the days and years after 9/11 were unique and I also think this war is unique. I also would rather have my fellow americans alive and be critqued for harsh treatment than to have my fellow americans DEAD and be lauded as a wonderful country because we treated the killers in a kind way.
2. Not surprisingly, to me anyway, the administration has set the wheels in motion to "get the previous administration" and allow the President to "stay above the fray", which is so typical of what he does so adeptly and has done his entire career.
3. In reading the NY Times today on this subject, it was amazing how NO Democrats on the intelligence committe could recall, while hearing ABOUT the measures, ever being told they were actually being used.
4. As the current administration and congress goes about revenge, I do hope they remember my item #1. While they LEFT OUT OF THE RELEASED memos that very point, I hope the need for revenge of some sort does not out weigh everything else.
5. We are about to, if we stay on this path, witness each and every change of party in the WH and Congress have precedent to go back and get people from the previous administration.
All proof that nothing changes....same as usual in Wash Dc
Guest
04-22-2009, 04:51 PM
I have no...none....niente....use for politically correct thinking hence it pulls my trigger every time.
Political correctness = licsence for NOT doing what is right or correct. Synonomous with copping out to not offend. It does not work as most know. And is totally ineffective.
Most decisions can be put into doing what is right or wrong, regardless the consequences...for those willing to stand and be counted.
BTK
Guest
04-22-2009, 05:05 PM
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/ejp52/fkp1dl.jpg
Guest
04-22-2009, 05:34 PM
And back to the original idea of this thread....
Those of you who posted your chagrin at the USA "torturing" or being mean to the killers we had at GTMO....
You ok with the drones killing innocent villagers in Afghanastan ? If so, how do you reconcile that ?
Guest
04-22-2009, 08:19 PM
1.. I am not one who is FOR torture, however, I think the days and years after 9/11 were unique and I also think this war is unique. I also would rather have my fellow americans alive and be critqued for harsh treatment than to have my fellow americans DEAD and be lauded as a wonderful country because we treated the killers in a kind way.
I have to agree with Bucco on his point #1 and,
"Those of you who posted your chagrin at the USA "torturing" or being mean to the killers we had at GTMO....You ok with the drones killing innocent villagers in Afghanastan ? If so, how do you reconcile that ?"
In my first post, that WAS my point- there is a real moral difficulty with justifying drones and criticizing the Bush Adminstration's torture policies. I know we'll just disagree on this, but how can using an "enhanced" interrogation technique be said to work if it's used 183 times? Not twice, not a dozen, not 100 times. Either it didn't work, which is why they had to keep doing it in the hope of getting answers, or it did work, in which case it shouldn't have taken 183 times to get the answers they were looking for. It was torture, plain and simple.
If we had waterboarded Cheney or Rumsfeld, do you think it would have taken 183 times until they admitted that they cooked and cherry-picked their rationale for attacking Iraq? I doubt it, because their decision-making process had no morality in it when they equated 9/11 and Al Queda with Saadam's regime.
Guest
04-22-2009, 08:45 PM
"If we had waterboarded Cheney or Rumsfeld, do you think it would have taken 183 times until they admitted that they cooked and cherry-picked their rationale for attacking Iraq? I doubt it, because their decision-making process had no morality in it when they equated 9/11 and Al Queda with Saadam's regime. "
__________________________________________________
This is one of the cheapest shots I have ever seen on this board !!! You must be one angry dude...I said once before to you and will say it again....good luck !
Guest
04-22-2009, 09:25 PM
It is my understanding that all of the techniques except for the bug were adjudicated not torture many years before 9/11. Other than for the lowest of political reasons, why are we trying to dig up trouble. With the exception of water boarding, these were part of my training and are today a part of prisoner survival training.
Just fool liberals starting trouble as usual.
Yoda
Guest
04-22-2009, 10:04 PM
the killing of innocents in a war zone. The general public is so far removed from the realities of war to even have a notion of what is involved. The tactics and results can not be judged as if on a television show in a controlled environment.
The very reason the militants move in with the civilians is they know enough about the enemy...THAT WOULD BE US BY THE WAY...to take advantage of what they know they will have going for them.
I am not OK with the drones killing innocents...just like I am not OK with drunks and cell phone users on the highways killing innocents...like it or not there is collateral damage in a war. The technology has come a long way to allow minimizing it to a point. The drunks and cell phone killers of innocents are much higher in number yet we tolerate it happening. In fact we allow it to continue.
Remember we are a people now that will not tell our warriors to go in and win a war. we might hurt some feelings by doing so as a result the war(s) go on longer. The enemy plays with us on the battlefield and at home via the media and special interest groups.
To single out an incident and look for a reconciliation is not a reasonable notion. We would have never won the wars in our countries past with the outlook of the people in today's society.
If you haen't been there you can't reconcile/rationalize or make it go away....no more than we do the drunk and cell phone driver murderers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTK
Guest
04-23-2009, 07:14 AM
the killing of innocents in a war zone. The general public is so far removed from the realities of war to even have a notion of what is involved. The tactics and results can not be judged as if on a television show in a controlled environment.
The very reason the militants move in with the civilians is they know enough about the enemy...THAT WOULD BE US BY THE WAY...to take advantage of what they know they will have going for them.
I am not OK with the drones killing innocents...just like I am not OK with drunks and cell phone users on the highways killing innocents...like it or not there is collateral damage in a war. The technology has come a long way to allow minimizing it to a point. The drunks and cell phone killers of innocents are much higher in number yet we tolerate it happening. In fact we allow it to continue.
Remember we are a people now that will not tell our warriors to go in and win a war. we might hurt some feelings by doing so as a result the war(s) go on longer. The enemy plays with us on the battlefield and at home via the media and special interest groups.
To single out an incident and look for a reconciliation is not a reasonable notion. We would have never won the wars in our countries past with the outlook of the people in today's society.
If you haen't been there you can't reconcile/rationalize or make it go away....no more than we do the drunk and cell phone driver murderers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTK
I think I agree with you BTK.
What I was trying to do with this thread, and failed miserably, was to point out that the shock and dismay about the treatment of those prisoners in GTMO was and IS politically motivated. I was trying to show that those who have expresses such shock at this treatment simply accept the drone bombing and potential for killing of innocents.
I failed miserably at this try and will now slink away !!
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