Interesting editorial

[Guest]

The editorial in the WSJ today was interesting. Not sure I agree with all, HOWEVER....

"Mark down the date. Tuesday, April 21, 2009, is the moment that any chance of a new era of bipartisan respect in Washington ended. By inviting the prosecution of Bush officials for their antiterror legal advice, President Obama has injected a poison into our politics that he and the country will live to regret."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124044375842145565.html


I suspect that President Obama will find some way to be "immune" and ascend above this firestorm, but so typical of an administration that is more political than any in many years, however preaches a different beat to us all.

Again...dont listen to what he says...watch what he does !!

[Guest]

Bucco...thanks for posting an enlightening, if not disturbing article. The fact that Obama's administration selectively witch hunts is understated.

[Guest]

The phrase, "damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't", comes to mind.

[Guest]

The phrase, "damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't", comes to mind.


He DIDNT have to release the memos....

He DIDNT have to say lets move forward, etc.

He DIDNT have to back off on his original statements

ETC, ETC, ETC

Oh and he might have made sure ALL pertinent information was included when he released it !!!!

And if you dont think that he and Emanual knew what each other was going to say, you are living in a dream world. Axlerod, his political guru (the Karl Rove of this administration) who meets with him at LEAST 3 times a week to discuss politics and polls had a hand.

[Guest]

We shall see how "politically and legally bulletproof" Speaker Pelosi, Senator Kennedy, Secretary Rodham-Clinton, VP Biden and others within the Democratic Party are when the subpoenas start flying. They were in the Congressional middle of it.

[Guest]

He DIDNT have to release the memos....
He DIDNT have to say lets move forward, etc.
He DIDNT have to back off on his original statements
ETC, ETC, ETC

Oh and he might have made sure ALL pertinent information was included when he released it !!!!

While he didn't have to release the memos, I'm glad he did. That was part of why I signed on to the Obama campaign to begin with. It should all come out as long as legitimate national secrurity concerns are not threatened.

Dick Cheney is requesting that the information gathered from these techniques be released as well. He's absolutely correct. If an independent source can verify that x number of terrorists were caught, or x number of plots were foiled, that would be fine with me. No need to know the details, just the effectiveness.

And if there's dirt, and it has Democratic fingerprints, let their hands be scanned as well.

Two interesting tidbits so far. Pelosi swears she was not told about the "Enhanced" techniques, and AG Eric Holder states that he has no documents that speak of any success from the interrogations. Doesn't mean they don't exist, just that they are not at Justice.

[Guest]

While he didn't have to release the memos, I'm glad he did. That was part of why I signed on to the Obama campaign to begin with. It should all come out as long as legitimate national secrurity concerns are not threatened.

Dick Cheney is requesting that the information gathered from these techniques be released as well. He's absolutely correct. If an independent source can verify that x number of terrorists were caught, or x number of plots were foiled, that would be fine with me. No need to know the details, just the effectiveness.

And if there's dirt, and it has Democratic fingerprints, let their hands be scanned as well.

Two interesting tidbits so far. Pelosi swears she was not told about the "Enhanced" techniques, and AG Eric Holder states that he has no documents that speak of any success from the interrogations. Doesn't mean they don't exist, just that they are not at Justice.

The information IS THERE AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN !!!

The President simply decided NOT to release it all !!

Wonder why...this is by far the one most political WH in years and years !

[Guest]

Should the next Republican administration decide that the use of drones in Afghanastan to bomb and kill fall in the catagory of war crimes, will the next President then release notes and begin an investigation ?

[Guest]

Yes, we sure do want to move forward....

"The Obama administration agreed late Thursday to release dozens of photographs depicting alleged abuses at U.S. prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bush White House."

AND...during the campaign I mentioned the groups that would have power in this administration...one was the ACLU...

"This will constitute visual proof that, unlike the Bush administration's claim, the abuse was not confined to Abu Ghraib and was not aberrational," said Amrit Singh, a lawyer for the ACLU, which reached the agreement as part of a long-running legal battle for documents related to anti-terrorism policies under President George W. Bush."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-interrogate24-2009apr24,0,4199113.story

[Guest]

This whole "abuses" and "torture" diatribe intrigues me. There is no quantifiable definition. It's sort of like pornography and beauty - the "I'll know it when I see it" floating standard that ebbs and flows with the political tide.

Anything can be called "torture."

1. How about:
- Making someone feel like they are going to drown, but all the while the person is in no danger - is that torture?
- Keeping someone isolated from others so as to not allow corruption of testimony - is that torture?
- Embarrassment or cultural discomfort to any degree - is that torture?

2. How about:
- Breaking bones and not treating the injuries - is that torture?
- Physical beatings with fists and clubs - is that torture?
- Making injured people march long distances, and killing those who stumble - is that torture?
- Slave labor 12-16 hours a day, 7 days a week, ceasing only at death - is that torture?

Number 1 above is the most the US has actually done.
Number 2 is what our citizens have endured at the hands of opponents, specifically Japan, Germany, China, North Vietnam, USSR and Iraq.

Before we start calling our interrogation practices inhumane or "torture," take a hard and long look at what the international standard of behavior has been when it has been Americans as the recipients of opponent action. In every comparison, we are indeed the "kindler, gentler" folk.

Amen.

[Guest]

by profession which means they know what to say, or not to say and when including lying with the aid of the letter of the law and or hiding behind the letter of the law. Good example ...Holder...no documents therefore must not have happened...lawyer speak!!!

Does it matter that it is another complete waste of time? That it contradicts Obama's look forward promise (another lie?)? That absolutely nothing of use will come from the investigation? There are much more important things to be dealt with....but that is the real reason to conduct the witch hunt...it keeps the public's eye off the real issues.

What is being demonstrated for all to see (if they look) the politicians will say what ever the audience wants to hear and next week completely reverse their stance as if last week did not occur. Or like Pelosi attending meetings and claiming she did not hear, was not informed, did not know.....BS!

Obama has created a political liability by allowing an opposition party hunting liscence.....and that is all it is.

Benefit to we the people? Of course....none!

BTK

[Guest]

While he didn't have to release the memos, I'm glad he did. That was part of why I signed on to the Obama campaign to begin with. It should all come out as long as legitimate national secrurity concerns are not threatened.

Dick Cheney is requesting that the information gathered from these techniques be released as well. He's absolutely correct. If an independent source can verify that x number of terrorists were caught, or x number of plots were foiled, that would be fine with me. No need to know the details, just the effectiveness.

And if there's dirt, and it has Democratic fingerprints, let their hands be scanned as well.

Two interesting tidbits so far. Pelosi swears she was not told about the "Enhanced" techniques, and AG Eric Holder states that he has no documents that speak of any success from the interrogations. Doesn't mean they don't exist, just that they are not at Justice.Pelosi is damaged goods, a loose cannon and a liability for the Democratic Party. Her most recent denial will likely prove damaging to her political future.

[Guest]

I would like the torture issue to be investigated mainly because I have 2 nephews in the military. We should not have tortured anyone for any reason...now we have to make this right.

I would not support a long term investigation of the Bush Administration like the one conducted against the Clinton Admistration... It cost to much and in the end found nothing.

[Guest]

I would like the torture issue to be investigated mainly because I have 2 nephews in the military. We should not have tortured anyone for any reason...now we have to make this right.

I would not support a long term investigation of the Bush Administration like the one conducted against the Clinton Admistration... It cost to much and in the end found nothing.

Again, the question is - what is "torture?" It seems the claim is torture is anything that is "not nice." Again, in comparison to the rest of the world, we use kid glove behavior. What is "right?"

[Guest]

This whole "abuses" and "torture" diatribe intrigues me. There is no quantifiable definition. It's sort of like pornography and beauty - the "I'll know it when I see it" floating standard that ebbs and flows with the political tide.

Anything can be called "torture."

1. How about:
- Making someone feel like they are going to drown, but all the while the person is in no danger - is that torture?
- Keeping someone isolated from others so as to not allow corruption of testimony - is that torture?
- Embarrassment or cultural discomfort to any degree - is that torture?

2. How about:
- Breaking bones and not treating the injuries - is that torture?
- Physical beatings with fists and clubs - is that torture?
- Making injured people march long distances, and killing those who stumble - is that torture?
- Slave labor 12-16 hours a day, 7 days a week, ceasing only at death - is that torture?

Number 1 above is the most the US has actually done.
Number 2 is what our citizens have endured at the hands of opponents, specifically Japan, Germany, China, North Vietnam, USSR and Iraq.

Before we start calling our interrogation practices inhumane or "torture," take a hard and long look at what the international standard of behavior has been when it has been Americans as the recipients of opponent action. In every comparison, we are indeed the "kindler, gentler" folk.

Amen.

To the point,as usual. Thanks Steve

[Guest]

Yes, we sure do want to move forward....

"The Obama administration agreed late Thursday to release dozens of photographs depicting alleged abuses at U.S. prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan during the Bush White House."

AND...during the campaign I mentioned the groups that would have power in this administration...one was the ACLU...

"This will constitute visual proof that, unlike the Bush administration's claim, the abuse was not confined to Abu Ghraib and was not aberrational," said Amrit Singh, a lawyer for the ACLU, which reached the agreement as part of a long-running legal battle for documents related to anti-terrorism policies under President George W. Bush."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-interrogate24-2009apr24,0,4199113.story

The ACLU, ACORN and GreenPeace is NOT the Democratic Party nor the Adminstration, unless you also want to admit that Focus on the Family, the NRA the KKK and Jack Abramoff ARE the Republic Party. The ACLU exercised its Constitutional and Legal right through the FOIA for the release of this information. I'm hearing that somehow that process is un-American.

I would love that the ACLU is part of any Administration, just as the NRA should be safe-guarding the Second Amendment. Both organizations raise, or lower themsleves, at times to ridiculous ideological contortions, but their presence keeps all those "bozos" in government on their toes and the Constitution front and center.

[Guest]

The ACLU, ACORN and GreenPeace is NOT the Democratic Party nor the Adminstration, unless you also want to admit that Focus on the Family, the NRA the KKK and Jack Abramoff ARE the Republic Party. The ACLU exercised its Constitutional and Legal right through the FOIA for the release of this information. I'm hearing that somehow that process is un-American.

I would love that the ACLU is part of any Administration, just as the NRA should be safe-guarding the Second Amendment. Both organizations raise, or lower themsleves, at times to ridiculous ideological contortions, but their presence keeps all those "bozos" in government on their toes and the Constitution front and center.
Overall, I tend to agree with you. The more groups that can keep any administration or legislature on the constitutional straight-and-narrow, the better.

FOIA exists for a good reason, and in many ways it's a shame that it took an Act of Congress to open records. However, FOIA is not a perfect solution, as it does cost a lot of money to respond to each and every FOIA requests, and many of them are absolutely inane. Some agencies get tens of thousands of FOIA requests per year for all sorts of information and documents, and they take a lot of time to research and collate. On rare circumstances, FOIA requests require a fee if the size of the document(s) is very large, but many times it is not billed because it can cost more to process fee than the fee is worth.

ACLU is an interesting organization. "Civil Liberties" is narrow or broad in interpretation, depending on the "liberty" involved. Where ACLU has shown excessive bias is its tendency to only be involved in "very left of center" interpretations of what "liberties" are.

As far as linking Republicans and KKK together, that's bogus. KKK is as anarchistic as it gets, and distrusts all parties.

And as far as lobbyists go, the daily parade from K Street to each Congressional Committee Chairperson's office (all Democrat now) makes the March of the Penguins look lightly populated.

[Guest]

Again, the question is - what is "torture?" It seems the claim is torture is anything that is "not nice." Again, in comparison to the rest of the world, we use kid glove behavior. What is "right?"

Come on....water boarding is torture. Is a near drowning.

[Guest]

As John McCain said, this whole water boarding/torture issue isn't about who THEY are, it's about who WE are.

[Guest]

These terrorists are nothing but deranged animals who's only purpose is to kill innocent civilians... mostly Americans.

They even take great pride in hacking off the heads of totally innocent people in front of a camera while they scream in agony and fear.

I have no mercy for them whatsoever. If we can get info that can prevent another attack and save lives then I say the CIA should do whatever it takes.

Obama is incompetent and a disgrace.

[Guest]

The point of the thread and the article was....

"But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power."


"So the CIA requests a legal review at a moment of heightened danger, the Justice Department obliges with an exceedingly detailed analysis of the law and interrogation practices -- and, seven years later, Mr. Obama says only the legal advisers who are no longer in government should be investigated. The political convenience of this distinction for Mr. Obama betrays its basic injustice. And by the way, everyone agrees that senior officials, including President Bush, approved these interrogations. Is this President going to put his predecessor in the dock too?"
__________________________________________________ ___________

This is POLITICS of a different dimension than we have seen. Everyone is discussing the waterboarding, etc. and that is EXACTLY what is wanted.

Does nobody see what this could lead to in this country in the future ?
__________________________________________________ _____________

"Just as with the AIG bonuses, he is trying to co-opt his left-wing base by playing to it -- only to encourage it more. Within hours of Mr. Obama's Tuesday comments, Senator Carl Levin piled on with his own accusatory Intelligence Committee report. The demands for a "special counsel" at Justice and a Congressional show trial are louder than ever, and both Europe's left and the U.N. are signaling their desire to file their own charges against former U.S. officials."

"Mr. Obama may think he can soar above all of this, but he'll soon learn otherwise. The Beltway's political energy will focus more on the spectacle of revenge, and less on his agenda. The CIA will have its reputation smeared, and its agents second-guessing themselves. And if there is another terror attack against Americans, Mr. Obama will have set himself up for the argument that his campaign against the Bush policies is partly to blame."
__________________________________________________ ______________

All of the above from the link I provided but no comment on that..simply discourse on what is waterboarding, and torture, which is EXACTLY what the article pointed out !!!
__________________________________________________ ______________

[Guest]

Come on....water boarding is torture. Is a near drowning.
I don't know of a situation where anyone "waerboarded" has ever drowned or required medical attention for anything other than hyperventilation from fear. I can remember when I went through "POW Preparation" training, and what we experienced was similar and in many cases worse. Nobody died, nobody required medical attention, and all were shook up pretty well.

Unfortunately, the "pretty please, would you like some tea and crumpets?" approach doesn't work. Before condemning what is a viable physio-psychological interrogation technique, please name an alternative that works. Whether one believes it or not, a lot of study goes into what will or will not work that doesn't result in a "wasted subject." This whole waterboarding scapegoating is just another circumstance where amateurs observe an action, don't understand the why and how, and instantly condemn it because it's "not nice."

I have never seen a situation where a hard-nosed subject possessing vital information responded to "pretty please" techniques. Again, what's the alternative which gets the necessary information so that friendly lives are protected? Whose life is worth forfeiting so that the subject is not made "uncomfortable?"

[Guest]

Should the next Republican administration decide that the use of drones in Afghanastan to bomb and kill fall in the catagory of war crimes, will the next President then release notes and begin an investigation ?

Well, Actually, I believe if there is just cause to believe that there was a wanton disregard for life, there should be an investigation. The military under the previous administration used unmanned vehicles, as is the current one. These drones appear to have extremely accurate high-resolution photography & high-accuracy targeting, hence you aren't haring any questions about indiscriminate military actions.

On the other hand, the hot potato of who authorized what to whom regarding enhanced torture techniques has become one of deny, deny, deny. Didn't anyone think it odd that the Attorney General of the United States sat before the United States Congress under oath and simply kept saying "I don't recall, I don't recall." . And many more form the Administration did the same thing. Either they represent a serious glandular amomaly that caused Bush executives to suffer from Alzheimer's or they lied. As intelligent adults, which do you think it was?

This kettle of fish was self-brewed. Personally, I believe it arises from the arrogance of power: "No one can tell us what to do or how to do it." This same arrogance may overcome the Obama administration as well. I hope not. But if laws are broken, then investigations are incumbent upon Congress or an independent counsel.

I believe that it is in our natures- conservatives do not like to air dirty laundry, while liberals are often over-eager to do the opposite. And is is a huge mistake to think that Democrats act in one accord. If you notice the Republican votes in the House, they are virtually unanimous against the Democratic majority, whatever the issue. Tom DeLAy, Dick Armey and Newt Gingrich make non apologies for such partisanship.

Democrats, with feckless leadership like Tom Daschle and Harry Reid, were unable to ride herd on their members, and always look disorganized. Republicans run their party like a business; Democrats don't run their party at all. Republicans have problems where the product they are offering is not something the American people desire; Democrats have problems getting a unified message out at all.

[Guest]

The "I don' t recall" syndrome seems to be universal and party-neutral. I heard the same from the latest batch of appointees regarding their tax status as well. It seems to go with all of them, including the elected.

As far as "dirty laundry" is concerned, you and I tend to think alike to a point. I believe the pendulum also swings based on which is the majority party du jour. Then all laundry is perceived as dirty no matter what condition it is.

I don't buy into a categoritization at any level that the military operates any mission with a wanton disregard for life. If anything, the opposite is true. Have there been instances where actions have happened where are far from desired? Sure, and there will always be an occasional one because war is far from pretty, and things happen which are regrettable. That's why there is no group more cautious of committing military assets to resolve a situation than the military leadership itself - folk who know all too well what can and will happen despite the best of intentions. Ironically, it's folk who have never been in combat who historically have been all-too-eager to deploy the military as the "problem solver."

[Guest]

Well said, SteveZ. I don't agree with everything you post but in this case you hit the nail on the head. What would happen if the military had the final word on operations planned by the politicians? Anyone who thinks that senior military does not care about their soldiers/sailors/airmen/Marines, has certainly never been in the military and fought for their country.

[Guest]

That's why there is no group more cautious of committing military assets to resolve a situation than the military leadership itself - folk who know all too well what can and will happen despite the best of intentions. Ironically, it's folk who have never been in combat who historically have been all-too-eager to deploy the military as the "problem solver."


Steve.....a tip of the hat and a resounding AMEN!

[Guest]

I don't know of a situation where anyone "waerboarded" has ever drowned or required medical attention for anything other than hyperventilation from fear. I can remember when I went through "POW Preparation" training, and what we experienced was similar and in many cases worse. Nobody died, nobody required medical attention, and all were shook up pretty well.

Unfortunately, the "pretty please, would you like some tea and crumpets?" approach doesn't work. Before condemning what is a viable physio-psychological interrogation technique, please name an alternative that works. Whether one believes it or not, a lot of study goes into what will or will not work that doesn't result in a "wasted subject." This whole waterboarding scapegoating is just another circumstance where amateurs observe an action, don't understand the why and how, and instantly condemn it because it's "not nice."

I have never seen a situation where a hard-nosed subject possessing vital information responded to "pretty please" techniques. Again, what's the alternative which gets the necessary information so that friendly lives are protected? Whose life is worth forfeiting so that the subject is not made "uncomfortable?"

Problem is we have held waterboarding as a war crime in previous wars. The Japanese used the tactic as well as the Khmer Rouge. The Regan administration denounced its use.

And now the US has used it. No matter what you say it is at all times wrong.

END OF STORY...........

[Guest]

Steve I agree with you 100% as well.

When the tax issues surrounding Geithner & the others surfaced. there were a whole lot of us complaining form the "other" side that something was rotten in all this. On top of that, Geithner was head of the NY Fed when the initial TARP monies went oout without any strings attached.

No one is indispensble in any position (except a self-employed person, thank you very much), so I found Obama's pursuit of this uncharacteristically odd.

Regarding war and its formulation, I think you have it right on the money. It was one of the anti-war side's most powerful arguments. No one in the Bush Adm. pushing for the war had any military experience whatsoever, and those that did were ignored or even villified as cowards or "with the terrorists."

I think if you had Colin Powell or Schwarzkopf supporting, and coordinating the strategy, people might have supported the long-term efforts. But the reality is, they didn't support the war at all. Everyoe got swept up into propaganda and terrror-baiting/ What is an intelligent person supposed to answer when the President of the United States says, "You are either with us, or with the terrorists," and you know in your heart and brain that "us" is wrong?

Any way, great post!

[Guest]

Problem is we have held waterboarding as a war crime in previous wars. The Japanese used the tactic as well as the Khmer Rouge. The Regan administration denounced its use.

And now the US has used it. No matter what you say it is at all times wrong.

END OF STORY...........
The Japanese, Gestapo and KR waterboarding technique was different - at their hands, people died, and regularly. They didn't care if the subject survived.

[Guest]

One thing Steve that I will call you on:

"I don't buy into a categorization at any level that the military operates any mission with a wanton disregard for life."

While I think that's overwhelmingly true, it doesn't necessarily apply when attacking one's enemies. There are also foolish Generals whose pride or stupidity cause massive death. The battle at Gallipoli comes to mind, Napolean's march to Moscow, and the tactics of the Japanese in WWII.

My dad fought in Eisenhower's signal command in WWII. He didn't like to talk about war, but said that if even one shot came from a building as they advanced, the building was toast. Didn't matter who was inside it. It seems like it's a lot easier to pick and choose when you know that the people you are liberating view you as liberators. That was a problem in Viet Nam and has been throughout the Middle East- the "enemy" mixes in with civilians in a most cowardly way, although I bet many of them see no difference between themselves and those civilians.

[Guest]

Steve I agree with you 100% as well.

When the tax issues surrounding Geithner & the others surfaced. there were a whole lot of us complaining form the "other" side that something was rotten in all this. On top of that, Geithner was head of the NY Fed when the initial TARP monies went oout without any strings attached.

No one is indispensble in any position (except a self-employed person, thank you very much), so I found Obama's pursuit of this uncharacteristically odd.

Regarding war and its formulation, I think you have it right on the money. It was one of the anti-war side's most powerful arguments. No one in the Bush Adm. pushing for the war had any military experience whatsoever, and those that did were ignored or even villified as cowards or "with the terrorists."

I think if you had Colin Powell or Schwarzkopf supporting, and coordinating the strategy, people might have supported the long-term efforts. But the reality is, they didn't support the war at all. Everyoe got swept up into propaganda and terrror-baiting/ What is an intelligent person supposed to answer when the President of the United States says, "You are either with us, or with the terrorists," and you know in your heart and brain that "us" is wrong?

Any way, great post!

Thanks!

The "you are with us or with the terrorists" comment struck me as something said mainly to help the domestic audience see its governmental leadership as being tough during tough times. What's said in public, and what's said behind diplomatic closed doors rarely is the same.

[Guest]

The Japanese, Gestapo and KR waterboarding technique was different - at their hands, people died, and regularly. They didn't care if the subject survived.

So because these guys are still alive that makes it ok?

What a total load of crap. barf

[Guest]

Nice article....given by people who were there.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089

[Guest]

Nice article....given by people who were there.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089

Great article - thanks for sharing. The bottom line is these torture techniques do not represent American values, and the use of such by the Bush administration could have put American soldiers at risk and certainly did nothing as far as enhancing our position in the world. The bigger question is, should American officials who condoned these tactics be prosecuted? Personally I feel they should be, but it appears Obama and his administration are saying in effect "here are the facts, let's drop it and move forward".

[Guest]

Great article - thanks for sharing. The bottom line is these torture techniques do not represent American values, and the use of such by the Bush administration could have put American soldiers at risk and certainly did nothing as far as enhancing our position in the world. The bigger question is, should American officials who condoned these tactics be prosecuted? Personally I feel they should be, but it appears Obama and his administration are saying in effect "here are the facts, let's drop it and move forward".
"American Values" - I would hope the first and foremost was to protect as much as possible those we send in harm's way?

"Could have put American soldiers at risk" - How? People who use children as suicide bombers, cut the hands off kids who take a candy bar from US troops, send airplanes into buildings of office workers, blow up people at prayer, and behead their captives aren't affected by "kinder, gentler treatment" of their captured folk.

"Enhancing our position in the world" - How? By butt-smooching every bully in the world? And who's opinion elsewhere is important - folk the US historically has bled and died for so they don't now speak German, Japanese, Russian or Chinese as the directed national language of a conquered people? If their memories are so fleeting as to what we have done, do and will do for others, they know where they can go next.

"prosecuted" - Tell you what, let's start with the tax scofflaws who got a free pass from this administration and now hold appointed offices. And while we're at it, will all the folk looking to prosecute those trying to protect our troops please step forward, join the CIA , DIA, FBI, NCTC, and the various other military and civilian intelligence organizations, get trained and deployed in covert and overt operations, and gather/process/analyze the information necessary to protect deployed troops, and put yourself in the same risk pool as these folk? Its really easy (and a little cowardly) to judge from a long and safe distance away, with no responsibilities for the outcome.

The intelligence business is not like a James Bond movie or Ludlum novel. It is a rough, tough and difficult business, with the main problem being that there is often a very short and finite time period to get the intel. It does no good to get the intel ten minutes late, and that's what happens all too often due to the other guy's unwillingness to reveal salient data until the information is valueless. The time pressure to get the intel is severe and real, because delays result in friendly casualties.

I have no sorrow for anyone waterboarded, sleep-deprived or any other interrogation technique, when the information they have is necessary to protect American lives, miltary and civilian. Whatever discomfort the interrogatee endures is a whole lot less than the wounded or killed troop, or the family who suffers with or mourns their troop, or the unlucky individuals who have to deliver the news. You can have all the sympathy for the interrogatee - my empathy is with the troops and their families.

[Guest]

Nice article....given by people who were there.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089

NO, it was given by just ONE of the people who was there for just part of the interrogations. As in all things there are two sides to every issue and this report gives only one of them, with the other side unable to talk because of the classified nature of the situation.

However, this does at least put to rest the common claim by the left - that Zubdayah was just a small fish who could not provide any useful information.

[Guest]

notion of the cruelty of the points of discussion by those who do not have ANY first hand knowledge of the subject matter. It is just to simple and easy to present an intellectual view of the subject.

The only true go-no-go gauge on the use of any of the methods can be when there is a REAL involvement by those maintaining their so called high ground on the subject.

If one of their loved ones was being held by those who would behead one in the blink of an eye....and if there was someone in captivity who could reveal where they were to allow intervention....only then can you provide a real opinion on the subject.

Also if the same lunatics that are sworn to kill as many American men, woman and children as possible has a WMD being readied for use on your hometown and there was one in captivity who could advise where it was to enable stopping the massacre....ONLY then can you provide a real opinion on the subject.

No real personal loss involvement on an individuals part can not possibly yield a true perspective. However, if only media educated one can understand the erroneous positions being pontificated!!!

BTK

[Guest]

"American Values" - I would hope the first and foremost was to protect as much as possible those we send in harm's way?

"Could have put American soldiers at risk" - How? People who use children as suicide bombers, cut the hands off kids who take a candy bar from US troops, send airplanes into buildings of office workers, blow up people at prayer, and behead their captives aren't affected by "kinder, gentler treatment" of their captured folk.

"Enhancing our position in the world" - How? By butt-smooching every bully in the world? And who's opinion elsewhere is important - folk the US historically has bled and died for so they don't now speak German, Japanese, Russian or Chinese as the directed national language of a conquered people? If their memories are so fleeting as to what we have done, do and will do for others, they know where they can go next.

"prosecuted" - Tell you what, let's start with the tax scofflaws who got a free pass from this administration and now hold appointed offices. And while we're at it, will all the folk looking to prosecute those trying to protect our troops please step forward, join the CIA , DIA, FBI, NCTC, and the various other military and civilian intelligence organizations, get trained and deployed in covert and overt operations, and gather/process/analyze the information necessary to protect deployed troops, and put yourself in the same risk pool as these folk? Its really easy (and a little cowardly) to judge from a long and safe distance away, with no responsibilities for the outcome.

The intelligence business is not like a James Bond movie or Ludlum novel. It is a rough, tough and difficult business, with the main problem being that there is often a very short and finite time period to get the intel. It does no good to get the intel ten minutes late, and that's what happens all too often due to the other guy's unwillingness to reveal salient data until the information is valueless. The time pressure to get the intel is severe and real, because delays result in friendly casualties.

I have no sorrow for anyone waterboarded, sleep-deprived or any other interrogation technique, when the information they have is necessary to protect American lives, miltary and civilian. Whatever discomfort the interrogatee endures is a whole lot less than the wounded or killed troop, or the family who suffers with or mourns their troop, or the unlucky individuals who have to deliver the news. You can have all the sympathy for the interrogatee - my empathy is with the troops and their families.

great post from you, Steve. Thank goodness, someone understands.

[Guest]

No matter how you spin it torture is wrong...its UnAmerican. I don't want to give anyone a reason to torture my nephews who serve this country.

It is beyond me why any of you can believe it was ok to waterboard these prisoners.

The United States and the rest of the world have denouced this practice. Do you really want to be lumped in with Khemr Rouge?

Get serious.

[Guest]

loved one exposed for what ever reason. What we do or don't do will not affect potential captors. On the other hand per my earlier posts, if your nephew, or any other Americans were held by these butchers of humans, and if there was a way to find out how to get to them to be rescued from being butchered, by interrogating one that knows I suspect strongly one's definitions of what is acceptable or not would be very different.

What ever methods we use to garner information we are not killing anybody and the end result is an upset prisoner at the minimum and at the maximum we may have gained information to save American lives.
We are the only nation on earth that has such lofty measures and expect the rest of the planet to follow our definition. Well they don't. They never have.

Repeating....what ever it takes to save American lives and suppress the butchers.

BTK

[Guest]

The only true go-no-go gauge on the use of any of the methods can be when there is a REAL involvement by those maintaining their so called high ground on the subject.

.........and if there was someone in captivity who could reveal where they were to allow intervention....only then can you provide a real opinion on the subject.
BTK

And that someone would be John McCain. McCain has long argued that the Bush Administration overstepped its legal authority by approving techniques like waterboarding, and has successfully championed two efforts to try to limit the White House to the plain language of international treaties, which ban cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. McCain has also spoken in opposition to other techniques in the CIA arsenal like sleep deprivation and the use of stress positions, both of which were employed by the North Vietnamese during McCain's captivity as a prisoner of war and may still be employed by the CIA.

[Guest]

No matter how you spin it torture is wrong...its UnAmerican. I don't want to give anyone a reason to torture my nephews who serve this country.

It is beyond me why any of you can believe it was ok to waterboard these prisoners.

The United States and the rest of the world have denouced this practice. Do you really want to be lumped in with Khemr Rouge?

Get serious.

I can truly appreciate your concern for your nephews, and it is wonderful they have family who are concerned for their safety.

However, what any Al Qa-ida interrogator or POW guard will or will not do will not change in any matter whether the US puts up all prisoners at the Palmer House in Chicago with 24/7 room service or let's everyone out after photo/prints on their own recognizance.

Their mindset and actions are based on their motives and not our prisoner handling or interrogation methods, as they have shown over and over again against not just allied military , but also the civilians from many other nations who are within Iraq and Afghanistan and have been taken and abused by Al Qa-Ida for no reason other than being there to give aid, report the news, or just pave the roads.

As far as Al Qa-ida is concerned, they are what they are, and are also content to render extreme harm and death on fellow Iraqis and Afghanis. They just don't care.......

And that someone would be John McCain. McCain has long argued that the Bush Administration overstepped its legal authority by approving techniques like waterboarding, and has successfully championed two efforts to try to limit the White House to the plain language of international treaties, which ban cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. McCain has also spoken in opposition to other techniques in the CIA arsenal like sleep deprivation and the use of stress positions, both of which were employed by the North Vietnamese during McCain's captivity as a prisoner of war and may still be employed by the CIA.

I have tremendous respect for Sen. McCain and what he and others endured. That being said, he never has had the responsibility to collect, process, analyze and disseminate intelligence products. That would be like an intelligence specialist commenting on Naval Air and tactical close air support operations - how close to friendly lines is too close, and whether certain types of ordnance (napalm, high explosive, etc.) are appropriate or inhumane. Again, as with any elected official, being elected does not make you an expert - it just gives you access to public forum.

[Guest]

Steve....thank you for understanding my concern. I have found that even though my nephews are grown I still have a mental picture of each of them frozen in time.

I do think that there are real threats from Muslim extremist's which have to be dealt with. On that we can agree....perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on the waterboarding issue.

Take Care.

[Guest]

I can appreciate the feelings of those who feel 'the moral high ground' regarding enhanced interrogation techniques. However, are you willing to put you money, in other words your family's lives, on the line. We know on the basis of statements of two heads of the CIA, George Tenant and Porter Goss, that these techniques have proven invaluable and have saved many lives.

I, for one, want my two sons who are in the military to be provided with every bit of intelligence that can help them stay alive. Others here may believe that it is perfectly OK if the children or grandchildren's lives are lost when the loss could have been prevented. I do not understand your way of thinking. You believe that lives, such as Cologal's nephews, are expendable just to make you feel good!? If you feel that way, fine, take a gun and shoot them yourself - save Al Qa-ida the trouble. Just do not needlessly endanger my sons.

[Guest]

I'm with you, BBQMan. I have never understood this thinking. It blows my mind.

[Guest]

Steve....thank you for understanding my concern. I have found that even though my nephews are grown I still have a mental picture of each of them frozen in time.

I do think that there are real threats from Muslim extremist's which have to be dealt with. On that we can agree....perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on the waterboarding issue.

Take Care.

All the best! And the next time you speak to your nephews, please thank them from me for their service.