Some Scary Demographics

[Guest]

This is scary stuff, what's the answer?



For something really serious, click on the following video:


FW: Muslim Demographics -- A Must Watch Short Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

[Guest]

There is something beneficial about illegal immigration?

Yoda

[Guest]

For those wanting a more in depth understanding of what is happening, I recommend America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It by Mark Steyn.

It's rather frightening to realize that illegal immigration may be our only bulwark against having our grandchildren live under sharia law.

[Guest]

This is scary stuff, what's the answer?



For something really serious, click on the following video:


FW: Muslim Demographics -- A Must Watch Short Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU I forwarded this video to all of my friends many who share very opposing political views. One of the people who received it (a psychotherapist and college professor with a DSW--doctorate in social work)responded back (as he usually does with many of my forwards) that this is all crazy fear mongering by the lunatic fringe right and that I seemed to have lost my marbles since I moved here and that the world can coexist in peace etc. Interestingly, he added a positive note that he was just blessed with a new grandson. Amazingly... he couldn't connect the dots.

[Guest]

I seem to remember that the Jews were going to take over the World too.

[Guest]

It's all going to be under water soon, let the sandmen have it.

.

[Guest]

Keep in mind the same collating techniques and sensationalistic presentation are used every single day in the very biased media....with about the same credibility as the clip posted!!

BTK

[Guest]

This is the 3rd time I have seen this video posted on various forums / emails.

Who funded this video? Where did it come from? It shoots out statistics like candy…I really do not believe these figures… has anyone stop to do the math?

Go to the US / World Census websites and you will see that these numbers are truly blown way out proportion!

[Guest]

CS, I took your idea and decided to check if these numbers were at all realistic. I went to the CIA World Factbook for my data, so this is definitely NOT Wikipedia data. Here are the total fertility rate numbers for eight European Countries and eight primarily Muslim countries as well as the United States:

Total Fertility Rate – Children born/woman

Russia 1.41
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.41
United Kingdom 1.66
France 1.98
Spain 1.31
Poland 1.28
The Netherlands 1.66

Iraq 3.86
Iran 1.71
Saudi Arabia 3.83
Egypt 2.66
Pakistan 3.6
Libya 3.08
Turkey 2.21
Afghanistan 6.53

United States 2.05

No European country has a fertility rate that will support its population, France is the closest; however it should be noted that while muslims make up less that 10% of the total population, approximate 30% of the under 18 years of age is Muslim. This may account for the comparatively high fertility rate in France.

The only primarily Muslim nation that has a fertility rate that will not support its current population is Iran. The rest range from moderate to explosive growth rates. The United States has a fertility rate that would come close to supporting our present population, however this country will continue to grow so long as immigration is left unchecked.

The facts do appear to support the video as does the well researched book, America Alone.

[Guest]

I seem to remember that the Jews were going to take over the World too.

I remember that too but they didn't try.

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition.

[Guest]

Are we screwed?

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition

[Guest]

For the non believers just go look at a few countries that have already fallen. I don't know if the statistics in this video are right or not, but we do have examples of where it happened. Indonesia is now a Muslim country. Malaysia where I have spent a lot of time is now a Muslim country. I saw this happening there 10 years ago. After the country was about 30% Muslim, there was a law passed that provided tax incentives for Muslims to have children. When it got to be about 50%, there was another law passed to provide penalties if Chinese had more then one child. So today Muslims have an incentive to have children and Chinese have a penalty. Today the country is 68% Muslim. This is just two examples, but there are many others.

[Guest]

CS, I took your idea and decided to check if these numbers were at all realistic. I went to the CIA World Factbook for my data, so this is definitely NOT Wikipedia data. Here are the total fertility rate numbers for eight European Countries and eight primarily Muslim countries as well as the United States:

Total Fertility Rate – Children born/woman

Russia 1.41
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.41
United Kingdom 1.66
France 1.98
Spain 1.31
Poland 1.28
The Netherlands 1.66

Iraq 3.86
Iran 1.71
Saudi Arabia 3.83
Egypt 2.66
Pakistan 3.6
Libya 3.08
Turkey 2.21
Afghanistan 6.53

United States 2.05

No European country has a fertility rate that will support its population....
The problem with analysis of numbers alone is that there are additional facts affecting the formula leading to the numbers.

Example: Do the numbers only reflect recorded births or infants at ___ months age?
Example: What is the infant mortality rate, and is it reflected in the umbers?
Example: Which nations have abortion-on-demand? Will that affect population renewal capacity?
Example: What is the immigration ratio (how many leave/how many come)?

I'm a fan of numbers, but only after I can understand what they are trying to represent, and ask myself what isn't part of the equation than can can affect their use.

[Guest]

I think this video will give a better perspective:

http://perfectlyhuman.multiply.com/video/item/8

[Guest]

The problem with analysis of numbers alone is that there are additional facts affecting the formula leading to the numbers.

Example: Do the numbers only reflect recorded births or infants at ___ months age?
Example: What is the infant mortality rate, and is it reflected in the umbers?
Example: Which nations have abortion-on-demand? Will that affect population renewal capacity?
Example: What is the immigration ratio (how many leave/how many come)?

I'm a fan of numbers, but only after I can understand what they are trying to represent, and ask myself what isn't part of the equation than can can affect their use.

Steve, these are very reasonable questions and I will answer them as best I can.

1. Births per woman is just that. There is no included compensation for infant mortality or other adjustments.
2. As noted, infant mortality is not included in these numbers, but is reported seperately in the World Factbook. I'm feeling lazy tonight so I'll let you crunch those numbers.
3. I have no way to quantify how in different countries, abortion on demand, required abortion (very recently in China) and no abortions allowed for any reason have impacted these numbers. In any case these numbers are actual births.
4. Net migration numbers are also included in the CIA World Factbook and are factored into projected growth/shrinkage rates but not in the children born per woman figure. As you might expect, Mexico has a negative migration rate and the United States has a positive migration rate.

It should be noted that some countries including Japan, Russia, Germany and Italy are already experiencing negative growth rates.

My purpose in doing my spadework was to either validate or disprove the numbers being put forth in the video. They are valid.

[Guest]

I think the details of the report can be summarized by the fear of Muslims overtaking Western populations, and therefore governments, in the not too distant future.

Several things:

The vast majority of these immigrants, as with any revolution are uneducated and poor, and probably suffer discrimination. They are easily led astray by angry ideologies, not to mention the promise of 72 virgins. The rioting in France last year was overwhelmingly poor Muslims in ghettos.

Instead of worrying about population, which no one can really control, we should be PRO-active and figure out ways to get these people educated and accepted on Western terms- good jobs, no exploitation or discrimination. And public benefits should be curtailed after 2 children or whatever # works. That would minimize the opportunity for some radicals to grab hold.

It's ironic, isn't it, that those who were afraid of America becoming a nation where the minorities (Black and Latino) are the majority now have only those groups to look to for extra population growth!

A sweet, but rather ditzy friend of mine from Montana asked me if it wasn't really the fault of gay people- after all, their lifestyle precludes them from joining in the required procreation project. I pointed out to her that 1.) Artifical insemination works as well on gay women as straight, and 2.) that many states have been fighting to forbid gays from becoming parents at all. You can't have it both ways, so to speak.

As always, I belive the ultimate solution to societal problems is to provide the chance for a good education and opportunities to pursue "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

[Guest]

I think the details of the report can be summarized by the fear of Muslims overtaking Western populations, and therefore governments, in the not too distant future.

Several things:

The vast majority of these immigrants, as with any revolution are uneducated and poor, and probably suffer discrimination. They are easily led astray by angry ideologies, not to mention the promise of 72 virgins. The rioting in France last year was overwhelmingly poor Muslims in ghettos.

Instead of worrying about population, which no one can really control, we should be PRO-active and figure out ways to get these people educated and accepted on Western terms- good jobs, no exploitation or discrimination. And public benefits should be curtailed after 2 children or whatever # works. That would minimize the opportunity for some radicals to grab hold.

It's ironic, isn't it, that those who were afraid of America becoming a nation where the minorities (Black and Latino) are the majority now have only those groups to look to for extra population growth!

A sweet, but rather ditzy friend of mine from Montana asked me if it wasn't really the fault of gay people- after all, their lifestyle precludes them from joining in the required procreation project. I pointed out to her that 1.) Artifical insemination works as well on gay women as straight, and 2.) that many states have been fighting to forbid gays from becoming parents at all. You can't have it both ways, so to speak.

As always, I belive the ultimate solution to societal problems is to provide the chance for a good education and opportunities to pursue "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

The "vast number" of Muslim immigrants into the US are indeed educated and decent folk, wanting the same things as everyone else. As with others, they have their fringe element which constitute a minority within the group, but get the majority of publicity. The "squeaky wheel gets the grease" applies to them as well.

As far as societal images, when the economy is buzzing merrily along and eveyone is doing well, then nobody cares who does what. When things get tight, then human nature seems to need to lash out at anything and everything as the projected cause of the economic difficulties. That's when the societal battles tend to get vicious, because one kind of frustration (economic) feeds discrimination and separatism. While it may not be "right," it does happen in our imperfect, human world.

Procreation for the sake of creating a national impediment to any expansion of Islam seems ridiculous. The same holds true for selective manufacturing of "designer kids." Children as commodities to be farmed and harvested is repugnant to me.

An old boss of mine used to have a sign behind his desk that said, "There is no such thing as a fully-funded problem." A better economy brings with it less stress, more tolerance and peaceful resolution to many things.

[Guest]

I am sure that most Muslims are good, hard working, God fearing people. The problem as I see it (Don't ask me for a solution) is as follows. I think that in time, a very long time, we could have Muslims who want to be Americans. But, how do we get them to give up their God or their religion? That is the fly in the ointment. With good Muslims as with good Christians and with good Jews, we all want to do what is good with God. Good Muslims I presume follow the Koran and the several Hadith. If they do, they believe that all of the earth is to be Muslim and it is the duty of every good Muslim to bring this about. (Somebody will chime in and say that this is untrue. That Muslims are peace loving people. There is a word for that. Taqiyya. It's kind of like "Of course I'll respect you in the morning.) I didn't say that Muslims are violent. I have been studying this issue for years. I do not know the solution. I think that we are doing things wrong. Instead of encouraging Muslims to adapt to our culture, we are going out of our way to help them to not become Americans. I have no wish against Muslims. I am just pointing out some facts salient to the line of the thread. With a little luck, I will be gone from this Earth before we learn if we were right or wrong.

I think that this makes the numbers mean more.

Yoda

[Guest]

The naïveté of the statement, “As always, I believe the ultimate solution to societal problems is to provide the chance for a good education and opportunities to pursue "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." is impossible to comprehend unless you accept that the person making the statement lives in a Panglossian world.

To understand how out of touch with reality that statement is, l look at the four most educated, tolerant and inclusive countries in the ‘Muslim world’ in 1960 and see how the impact of good education and the opportunity to life and all its freedoms panned out in these countries. Look at Egypt, Iran, Lebanon and Turkey and tell me where good education has increased the opportunity to pursue ‘Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.’ Then tell me if the support of terrorism or actual terrorism has gone up or down. Then tell me how education, tolerance, respect for individual rights, women's rights, etc. have done in these four countries.

After you have done this, then explain the reality of the statement, "The "vast number" of Muslim immigrants into the US are indeed educated and decent folk, wanting the same things as everyone else. As with others, they have their fringe element which constitute a minority within the group, but get the majority of publicity. The "squeaky wheel gets the grease" applies to them as well."

I say again that the demographic numbers are honest and not overstated, the consequences of an increasing Muslim population are frightening and should we ever have a Muslim majority, our rights, as we now understand them would be gone.

[Guest]

Just because we're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to conquer us.

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition