Why can't restaurants make it at Spanish Springs

[ptownrob]

Sorry to see Bourbon St. gone. There is too long a line of closed restaurants to blame it solely on the owners. It's much more about the construction of Spanish Springs.


Owner Albert & his wife are very good people and I know they tried very hard. They put in nightly live music & were great "hosts." I'm sorry to see they didn't survive.

I think the whole Square needs a re-do. The Morses learned much when they built the Landing- it's better laid out for shoppping and exploring. The Square has the Church on one whole side, and the Sales Center/Wellness on another. Katie Belles is only for residents, so the only "draws" are TooJays & the movies.

There's always talk about financial greed for rents as well. If I were the developer, I'd use the Square as a loss leader, and build some shops adjacent to the Church- yes you'd lose the gardens, but there are already so many beautiful spots in The Villages anyway.

I'd also redo the front of Katie Belle's to include shops. It's not like it's a historic building anyway! They could leave the balcony and add shops on each side of the doors.

Finally, I'd redo the front of the new Wellness Center, get rid of the steps, move the shops closer to the street & put shops in there as well.

You guys listening? Location, location, location- foot traffic, foot traffic, foot traffic. The Square isn't set up to maximize that.

[downeaster]

Sorry to see Bourbon St. gone. There is too long a line of closed restaurants to blame it solely on the owners. It's much more about the construction of Spanish Springs.


Owner Albert & his wife are very good people and I know they tried very hard. They put in nightly live music & were great "hosts." I'm sorry to see they didn't survive.

I think the whole Square needs a re-do. The Morses learned much when they built the Landing- it's better laid out for shoppping and exploring. The Square has the Church on one whole side, and the Sales Center/Wellness on another. Katie Belles is only for residents, so the only "draws" are TooJays & the movies.

There's always talk about financial greed for rents as well. If I were the developer, I'd use the Square as a loss leader, and build some shops adjacent to the Church- yes you'd lose the gardens, but there are already so many beautiful spots in The Villages anyway.

I'd also redo the front of Katie Belle's to include shops. It's not like it's a historic building anyway! They could leave the balcony and add shops on each side of the doors.

Finally, I'd redo the front of the new Wellness Center, get rid of the steps, move the shops closer to the street & put shops in there as well.

You guys listening? Location, location, location- foot traffic, foot traffic, foot traffic. The Square isn't set up to maximize that.

That is only part of the problem.
Consider competition. I ate at Bourbon Street once some time ago and was underwhelmed. There are so many good places we just never bothered to go back. Without that competition we might have given it another chance.
Consider parking. There are "special" nights that fill the parking areas so it is more convenient to go to one of the many good restaurants where they have dedicated parking. Of course without those "special" nights there may be even less business for them.
BTW, I ,for one, like Spanish Springs just the way it is.

[dillywho]

I think Spanish Springs will continue on a downhill slide if more and more shops are added. I think enough chain stuff has already come in there and it has cost SS its original flavor. When we first came here (and that was before LSL), there was Bichara Bakery (awesome) now Starbucks, Cafe Ole, Augustine's and the Brewery, just to name a few. Why not keep TV unique instead of making it like any other place? Those were some of the things that drew us here in the first place....it was unlike any place we had ever been.

[mrfixit]

Per Mark Morse....Spanish Springs is going to be refurbished/reflavored a bit in the near future.
Seabreeze Regional Rec center -way South of 466 is nearing blueprint staging for its beach flovored theme ...and Eisenhower Regional Rec Center south of Seabreeze will honor our military and veterans.......Brownwood town centre will be flavored with a side of cowboy and old florida.....with a "taste of the "origional" Michigan family businesses added for good measure... All in the next five years ...in that approximate order......They are here through the buildout in 2012 or so.............Then.........hello Tejas.....or at least that is what I think the rumor mill is currently reporting to the tin foil thingy on my head.

[inda50]

I think Spanish Springs is suffering the loss of small town stores the same as other cities in America. I'm sorry to loose local small business and that unique feel of creative individual entrepuneurs. Everyone remembers the local hardware store and the soda shop. Becaras bakery to Starbucks is a good example. Sure you get a cup of coffee and the service is good, but it is replacing something that had an individual personality with another "franchise ". It's hard for the little guy to compete with chains.

I'm afraid the old town feel is gone. Our children will only know malls and HomeDepot and Berger king. They are good but not special.

[Cassie325]

Sign is up on the old Main Street Bistro....MEXICAN back at the square!!! YEAH!!:pepper2::pepper2::icon_hungry::beer3:

[ABC]

IMHO the title of this thread should be changed to "Why can't Restaurants make it in The Villages".

This problem is not unique to Spanish Springs - Dominics, Whiskey Creek, The Lighthouse (Mk1) on LSL spring to mind not to mention 2 x DQ Grill & Chill and Bono's Bar-B-Q, i am sure there have been others, on 466/441

I agree that Spanish Springs has had more than it's fair share of Restaurant Failures recently but the point needs to be made that Restaurants can & do fail all over The Villages.

[SteveZ]

Having a restaurant in TV is a tough business. The operating margin is tight anyway, and many don't really plan them as "seasonal," which is really the situation here. Once the snowbirds have left, the customer base drops significantly, and most of the remaining year-round folk are comfortable to look outside of TV for dining and entertainment. That makes things even more competitive.

[Hancle704]

I guess the question might be answered by visiting Toojay's and Panera's in SS. They seem to be doing just fine and have been since they opened. They seem to know what folks want and are willing to pay.

[Campbell soup]

I agree both places are great and that is why they have no problems making it...:beer3:

[emilyjean]

This always works, we villagers need to gather at the Lake Sumter area and walk with signs in front of the sales office, those signs stating :Enough with the Creed" as its the high rents enforced by the Morse family along with demanding a % of their sales to line their pockets, and this is exactly why none can remain in business here, its called CREED, so until we do something to force the issue, then don't expect any changes, if possible buyers coming to the sale office saw this, I assure you they would think twice and you would get some results from the creedy Morse family quickly Anybody game!!!!

[Bogie Shooter]

some restaurants given free rent would not make it. Poor food & poor service is usually the culprit!

[golf2140]

The reason some restaurants do not make it. Food, price, service.

[OpusX1]

What the heck is "Creed" ?

[BobKat1]

What the heck is "Creed" ?

I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps the poster meant greed?

[aln]

A restaurant with quality food and service EVEN in a bad location will survive.
On the other hand, I don't care if you're the only place in town, I'm not eating bad food even if you give it away.

I'm not trying to insult anyone here but I ate at Main Street Bistro. The service was slow to rude and the food was just short of cheap tv-dinners.

Bourbon Street did seem to try hard, especially with the service but I could never wrap myself around the food. About the only thing I enjoyed there was their version of the French bagettes. And, even that was not a very good copy of the New Orleans version

Amigo's: the couple of times I was there they seemed disorganized . . not well ran and that surprises me since they run other places but TV is a little special giving the age and habits of the population.


Don't blame the developer. . . he wants success not failure.

[spk7951]

This always works, we villagers need to gather at the Lake Sumter area and walk with signs in front of the sales office, those signs stating :Enough with the Creed" as its the high rents enforced by the Morse family along with demanding a % of their sales to line their pockets, and this is exactly why none can remain in business here, its called CREED, so until we do something to force the issue, then don't expect any changes, if possible buyers coming to the sale office saw this, I assure you they would think twice and you would get some results from the creedy Morse family quickly Anybody game!!!!

I for one would love to see the proof to back up this statement on high rent.

[ConeyIsBabe]

As some have already said..... it bears repeating.... when it comes to restaurants, location is not the main issue.

EXCELLENT food ~ good service ~ at a fair price will have people waiting in line, regardless of the location ! :beer3:

[musicman]

I guess the question might be answered by visiting Toojay's and Panera's in SS. They seem to be doing just fine and have been since they opened. They seem to know what folks want and are willing to pay.

The places you mention are chains. They have the advantage of having many locations that can help offset some of the slow times. The independent owners don't have this advantage. Deeper pockets, more support, it all adds up. I can't think of any chains that have failed.

[katezbox]

Musicman,

Some of the chains are doing poorly as well.... Up the Creek is up the creek and Johnny Rocket's is hanging by a thread. But I agree, while each chain location may be a franchise, they have the power of the corporate advertising to help out.

As a NE girl, I really don't care for the food at most chains. It all tastes the same and comes out of plastic bags. Have you ever noticed how thirsty you are after a meal at a chain restaurant? All those sodium-based preservatives - yuck!

[BogeyBoy]

The places you mention are chains. They have the advantage of having many locations that can help offset some of the slow times. The independent owners don't have this advantage. Deeper pockets, more support, it all adds up. I can't think of any chains that have failed.

Don't forget short-lived Whiskey Creek. (Don't open a restaurant with "Creek" in the name.)

[Bonny]

I'm one of those people who wants everyone to do well. I been here over 9 years. I don't cook. We eat out every night & I love the choices. Some more than others. We have several wonderful places.
But, I'm sorry. If you look at the restaurants that have closed, everyone of them had bad or inconsistent food and/or service. Some get their act together, others don't. :shrug:
When you open something in The Villages, you better open with your "A" game. There are too many choices here.
At least with chains, you know what you're going to get. They have to answer to corporate.
I've seen some of the stores close. I remember years ago we had a Christmas store in Spanish Springs. DUH, what did we need that for ?
Everyone talks about the rent, but the majority of us don't have a clue. There is choice to open or not. Rent's too high, don't open here or make it a great place.
Sorry this is so long.

[Bogie Shooter]

I'm one of those people who wants everyone to do well. I been here over 9 years. I don't cook. We eat out every night & I love the choices. Some more than others. We have several wonderful places.
But, I'm sorry. If you look at the restaurants that have closed, everyone of them had bad or inconsistent food and/or service. Some get their act together, others don't. :shrug:
When you open something in The Villages, you better open with your "A" game. There are too many choices here.
At least with chains, you know what you're going to get. They have to answer to corporate.
I've seen some of the stores close. I remember years ago we had a Christmas store in Spanish Springs. DUH, what did we need that for ?
Everyone talks about the rent, but the majority of us don't have a clue. There is choice to open or not. Rent's too high, don't open here or make it a great place.
Sorry this is so long.
Makes sense to me.

[golf2140]

I spoke to a manager a Whiskey Creek when it has started to pick-up. It was a corporate decision to close. He also told me that they rushed the opening. Hired anyone that could carry food to a table. It was a total mess since opening and the folks in The Villages have a long memory about poor service.

[BBQMan]

IMHO, parking is one of the major causes of the high rate of restaurant failure in Spanish Springs town square. While not immediately apparent, people who are limited in the distance they can walk, make up a significant part of the population of TV. There are those who need to use a wheel-chair or walker. We can easily see them. (BTW, my wife now needs a walker) What is not so apparent, are the much larger number of people who are limited by COPD, heart disease, arthritis, etc.

There are two major successes on the square - Katie Belles and Too Jays. Katie Belles draws from the same group of people who enjoy evenings and line dancing on the square - few physical problems there. Too Jays is far and away the most successful Deli chain in FL and probably the nation. They dominate the FL Gold coast from Miami up to Jupiter. They then moved into Central Florida and later, TV. Too Jays has a remarkable combination of product offerings, quality and service. They also occupy the location on the square with the best access to parking. All the other storefronts have failed. Cody's is going into the site where Amigos, the most successful Mexican chain in FL, failed. The steakhouse that preceded Amigos failed. Parking is very poor and handicap access is non-existent.

The outlook for Cody's is dim. One of the most important, if not the most important, consideration in restaurant location is demographics. Until you take the time to understand it, virtually any location in The Villages should be a success. Once your realize the importance of easy access to parking, the success of Paneras, Chili's, Applebee's, etc becomes easy to understand as does the failure of Amigos, Firehouse subs, and the other failures on the square. Just my thoughts.

[Bonny]

IMHO, parking is one of the major causes of the high rate of restaurant failure in Spanish Springs town square. While not immediately apparent, people who are limited in the distance they can walk, make up a significant part of the population of TV. There are those who need to use a wheel-chair or walker. We can easily see them. (BTW, my wife now needs a walker) What is not so apparent, are the much larger number of people who are limited by COPD, heart disease, arthritis, etc.

There are two major successes on the square - Katie Belles and Too Jays. Katie Belles draws from the same group of people who enjoy evenings and line dancing on the square - few physical problems there. Too Jays is far and away the most successful Deli chain in FL and probably the nation. They dominate the FL Gold coast from Miami up to Jupiter. They then moved into Central Florida and later, TV. Too Jays has a remarkable combination of product offerings, quality and service. They also occupy the location on the square with the best access to parking. All the other storefronts have failed. Cody's is going into the site where Amigos, the most successful Mexican chain in FL, failed. The steakhouse that preceded Amigos failed. Parking is very poor and handicap access is non-existent.

The outlook for Cody's is dim. One of the most important, if not the most important, consideration in restaurant location is demographics. Until you take the time to understand it, virtually any location in The Villages should be a success. Once your realize the importance of easy access to parking, the success of Paneras, Chili's, Applebee's, etc becomes easy to understand as does the failure of Amigos, Firehouse subs, and the other failures on the square. Just my thoughts.

Obviously you haven't been around much recently. You say "all" the other storefronts failed. Which ones are you talking about ?
Gator's Dockside, not Codys, is in the spot where Amigos was in & is doing fabulous. We've been there about 10 times.The restaurants that failed there were known to have bad food, bad service. That's why they failed, not parking. McCalls, Ruby Tuesdays, Panera, Margarita Republic are all well from what I see. As far as Firehouse subs, again I doubt it was the parking if Katie Belles & Too Jays are doing so well. They were in between them. My guess is there isn't a big need for a sub place.
Codys will be where Up The Creek was & should do wonderful. They have a great menu & are service oriented. We have eaten at Codys before & like the food & they have good prices.

[cashman]

Restaurant owners fail when they think because they were successful at some other profession they also will be successful selling meals and booze.
When they are that dumb they will surely fail. Running a restaurant takes a real professional with years of experience.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

I think one thing that hurts them is that whenever they have any special event like market night or the car shows, etc. it is roped off and very little parking.
I think the car shows are great but can't they have them in a designated parking lot close to the square and leave the square open to traffic/parking?

[Bogie Shooter]

I think one thing that hurts them is that whenever they have any special event like market night or the car shows, etc. it is roped off and very little parking.
I think the car shows are great but can't they have them in a designated parking lot close to the square and leave the square open to traffic/parking?
There is a lot of parking just off both squares....the walk will do us a some good.

[thistrucksforyou]

You are correct...The first time I came to Spanish Springs I was pleasantly surprised of the unique restaraunts and shops....Over the years it has all but dissapeard...Augustines and the brewery was the best...The only big draw in Spanish Springs now is the Town Square and the music...I think the government of TV has let SS down by consentrating on the newer sides and the planning of more develepment and your money is going there and not in your side of Floridas freindlest Home Town...

Just my opinion..


I think Spanish Springs will continue on a downhill slide if more and more shops are added. I think enough chain stuff has already come in there and it has cost SS its original flavor. When we first came here (and that was before LSL), there was Bichara Bakery (awesome) now Starbucks, Cafe Ole, Augustine's and the Brewery, just to name a few. Why not keep TV unique instead of making it like any other place? Those were some of the things that drew us here in the first place....it was unlike any place we had ever been.

[sunday]

Restaurant owners fail when they think because they were successful at some other profession they also will be successful selling meals and booze.
When they are that dumb they will surely fail. Running a restaurant takes a real professional with years of experience.

:agree: And most of these pro's do their homework...and seek out more favorable demographics to do business... IMHO

[GatorFan]

I wonder if the same thing will happen at Lake Sumter Landing when the new Town Square opens on 466 A? It is for sure Spanish Springs will suffer even more.

[zcaveman]

I have watched this post since its inception and have never posted. I have finally decide to have my say.

Personally I think that Spanish Springs is a greater draw than Lake Sumter. I enjoy all of the restaurants and can say that the ones that have failed have never been one of my hot spots. There are only three locations that continue to fail in SS and they are the ones that took over Augustine's (all had poor food and poor service), the ones that took over the place in the Sales building that thought we were made of money (I think that Gator's Dockside will make it - good food, service and prices) and the Bistro which forgot that most Villagers are not really night people and tried the late night entertainment. I have no faith in the Mexican place that is going in there because all of the Mexican restaurants around here have failed except the one in the Rio Grande area. Mexican is a niche food and I doubt if it will go over big here. Everything else is still here in SS with the exception of Olay's which has been replaced by Margarita Republic which serves the same style food as Olay's and is doing a booming business.

As far as parking, there is a lot of parking on the streets and around the square and we have two parking lots behind the movie house and the bowling alley.

I have been to Lake Sumter and it is a long walk from the parking lots to anything. The restaurants are expensive and too far apart and they are failing also. Think Dominic's, Up The Creek and Whiskey Creek. The Lighthouse has remade itself several times. I read that Johnny Rockets has cleaned up the premises. Hopefully they will last. I would want better service before I go there again.

It is to each his own. So quit dissing SS if you like Lake Sumter.

We are very happy over here.

Now I feel better.

Z

[gemorc]

AMEN brother.

[GatorFan]

I prefer Spanish Springs also. Love Starbucks-Panera Bread and the shopping. Also, the Marriott is great.

[schotzyb]

I agree also. Hardly ever go to a Lake Sumter eatery. Toojays, Mccalls , Margarita Republic are all on my list of favorites Haven't tried the new Mexican place or Gators Dockside but plan to.

[The Great Fumar]

I have watched this post since its inception and have never posted. I have finally decide to have my say.

Personally I think that Spanish Springs is a greater draw than Lake Sumter. I enjoy all of the restaurants and can say that the ones that have failed have never been one of my hot spots. There are only three locations that continue to fail in SS and they are the ones that took over Augustine's (all had poor food and poor service), the ones that took over the place in the Sales building that thought we were made of money (I think that Gator's Dockside will make it - good food, service and prices) and the Bistro which forgot that most Villagers are not really night people and tried the late night entertainment. I have no faith in the Mexican place that is going in there because all of the Mexican restaurants around here have failed except the one in the Rio Grande area. Mexican is a niche food and I doubt if it will go over big here. Everything else is still here in SS with the exception of Olay's which has been replaced by Margarita Republic which serves the same style food as Olay's and is doing a booming business.

As far as parking, there is a lot of parking on the streets and around the square and we have two parking lots behind the movie house and the bowling alley.

I have been to Lake Sumter and it is a long walk from the parking lots to anything. The restaurants are expensive and too far apart and they are failing also. Think Dominic's, Up The Creek and Whiskey Creek. The Lighthouse has remade itself several times. I read that Johnny Rockets has cleaned up the premises. Hopefully they will last. I would want better service before I go there again.

It is to each his own. So quit dissing SS if you like Lake Sumter.

We are very happy over here.

Now I feel better.

Z

AS USUAL , Z MAN IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY !!!

fumar

[chuckinca]

Ditto!

[JohnZ]

While the reasons contributing to a restaurant failure are many and well studied, operating a restaurant in The Villages presents many challenges with associated risks. The seasonal resident phenomenon is certainly well understood and not unique to The Villages since many Florida locations are subject to similar variances in seasonal populaton. Start-up costs in The Villages are inordinately high as are operating costs i.e. land purchase cost, leases etc. Restaurant developers take all this into consideration, of course, and weigh this into their forecasting. But, The Villages "sells" the allure of higher than usual upside sales potential which is very often unrealized. Here in TV, even with a high quality product, good location, good service, if the business transaction volume does not offset those high costs, any business will not be sustainable. It simply boils down to this.....if the sales volume isn't realized.....then the businesses will go away. The upside potential that local businesses were counting on a few years ago will come to be and I'm confident of that. But, with our economy today, which among them will be able to sustain until then?

[zcaveman]

JohnZ - long time no hear from you!!! Glad to see you are back! Hope everything is okay.

Z

[Card Peddler]

Good food, great service at a reasonable price. These are the reasons why restaurants survive for an extended period of time. Also the two primary expenses for a resturantuer are rent and payroll. I can only assume that the rent at SS and Lake Sumter are above average. "They" need to lower
the rent structure so that the owners can expect a reasonable profit for all their hard work.

[irishguy]

I agree rent has to be very expenive and then you have Katie Belles setting the bar as far as pricing and they don't have to show a profit as long as they sell houses. They monopolize the Sun with a 1/2 page ad everyday. Do you think they are paying for it?

[lefty]

All good resons above, here's another. Where is the population center of TV? With all of the offerings in/around LSL why should anyone go to SS? The recreation dept don't help with the quality of the entertainment(for the most part) that is scheduled in SS and that includes Katie Belles.:(

[zcaveman]

All good resons above, here's another. Where is the population center of TV? With all of the offerings in/around LSL why should anyone go to SS? The recreation dept don't help with the quality of the entertainment(for the most part) that is scheduled in SS and that includes Katie Belles.:(

I like your attitude. Stay at LSL and leave SS to us.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

I like your attitude. Stay at LSL and leave SS to us.

I agree with you....................stay around LSL so that we can find our spots available at Katie Belles.:beer3:

[lefty]

Only posted an opinion, did not intend to offend anyone. FYI I do go to SS as I live here. I still feel that the rec dept has given us (above 466) the short end of the stick for quality entertainment at the square and KB.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

Nah...didn't offend me. Just playing with you.:icon_wink:
We like SS and LSL.......

[bargee]

IMHO the next place to"bite the dust"will be Codys at LSL.Had the unfortunate experince of"dining??"there last week.My wifes stuffed flounder was stuffed with what resembled wall paper paste,our friends Roast Beef sandwich had a roll that was so stale you could have used it to chock the wheel on your golf cart and the meat could have been used to patch a flat tire.My meal was passable at best.We voiced our displeasure to our server(who was the only bright spot in our one and only visit),and she sent ovger a manager who asked us what the problem was and did offer us a replacement meal.By that time our stomachs were in no mood for any thing else,so she said sorry about that and strolled away.I will usually give places another chance but the general attitude of the managment has totally turned us off.

[Karen83]

Bargee, we had a similar experience. We took my brother and his family there and had 9 lousy meals. Like you , the bright spot was our nice server who without our asking, sent the manager to our table because she was upset with what she had to place in front of us....it looked almost as bad as it tasted.

The manager finally ambled over, circled our table and then finally asked if everything was OK. When I answered "not really", he replied, "OH", and then turned around and left!

I believe in giving restaurants a second chance, but we have never been back....too many other choices.

[zcaveman]

Only posted an opinion, did not intend to offend anyone. FYI I do go to SS as I live here. I still feel that the rec dept has given us (above 466) the short end of the stick for quality entertainment at the square and KB.

I hate the title of this thread and I will defend SS. It is my square. A lot has changed since I moved here back in 2001 and it has all been for the better - except the lost of Augustine.

I look at the monthly flyer and see that both LSL and SS use the same entertainers so I do not know what the problem with quality entertainment is.

I have always found the entertainment in SS to be satisfactory. I do not like Katie Belle's for lunch as it is too loud. I like Cattle Baron's for dinner but I have yet to figure out the proper way to get the better seats in the balcony area. Even with reservations I end up in the "can't see the entertainer" seats.

I have only been to LSL once for the entertainment. The one hour happy hour was a turnoff.

I prefer SS but that is my personal opinion. Parking is better and closer. I have not really found a restaurant in LSL that I like. Sonny's is the only one I frequent. I am 5 miles by cart from both squares so it is not a distance thing.

I just prefer SS.

[dominick]

It looks to me like Cody's will be around for awhile. Went there last night and there was a 45 minute wait for a table. Fagetaboutit!!. We went to Sonny's, which I think is great, and were seated right away.

[gemorc]

I hate the title of this thread and I will defend SS. It is my square. A lot has changed since I moved here back in 2001 and it has all been for the better - except the lost of Augustine.

I look at the monthly flyer and see that both LSL and SS use the same entertainers so I do not know what the problem with quality entertainment is.

I have always found the entertainment in SS to be satisfactory. I do not like Katie Belle's for lunch as it is too loud. I like Cattle Baron's for dinner but I have yet to figure out the proper way to get the better seats in the balcony area. Even with reservations I end up in the "can't see the entertainer" seats.

I have only been to LSL once for the entertainment. The one hour happy hour was a turnoff.

I prefer SS but that is my personal opinion. Parking is better and closer. I have not really found a restaurant in LSL that I like. Sonny's is the only one I frequent. I am 5 miles by cart from both squares so it is not a distance thing.

I just prefer SS.

I agree 100%. I just noticed today, 28-Feb-2010, that Rocky and the Rollers will be at SS tonite. The same entertainers at Katie Bell's appear at both squares frequently.