Violence does not make anything right!

[Guest]

Dr. George Hiller was murdered today. I am not stating that what he chose to do in regards to abortion was right or wrong. I am not giving my opinion of abortion....HOWEVER...

It is my opinion that killing him...no matter what one's view on abortion is...was/is completely wrong.


Again...I am not looking to debate to abortion issue. I am stating my opinion that the murder of this human being, this doctor is wrong and very sad!

[Guest]

My condolences to his family.

Keedy

[Guest]

or belief......

Thou shalt not kill.............

The killing of an innocent person is wrong no matter the rationale or venue!!!

BTK

[Guest]

Not exactly Bill. Innocent civilians are killed in war. It's not right, but when the United States is at war, it is inevitable.

[Guest]

As I get older, that which used to be so clear is no longer clear. Things are not black and white anymore. I am now pro choice but I believe that we need to teach our young to take responsible measures when they feel they are going to become sexually active AND most people become sexually active much sooner than when we grew up.

However I respect other peoples' religious beliefs.

BUT people cannot take the law into their own hands. If we do not uphold the law we have chaos.

If the majority would vote against late term abortion than the law would be changed.

This man was killed and it is very, very wrong to me. The person who killed him is a heinous murderer in my view.

[Guest]

Not exactly Bill. Innocent civilians are killed in war. It's not right, but when the United States is at war, it is inevitable.


Nice try, but when anyone is at war, the death of innocents is inevitable. The difference is with some, those deaths are truly accidental. For others, they are part of the plans of war or are considered inconsequential.

Re Tiller, my sympathies to his family and friends. It is unfortunate that this entire late-term/partial-birth abortion situation in Kansas has generated so much hate. I just hope that Roeder was acting alone and was not affiliated with any legitimate Pro-Life groups.



`

[Guest]

Not exactly Bill. Innocent civilians are killed in war. It's not right, but when the United States is at war, it is inevitable.

Less inevitable than when other countries are at war. Do I have to name them?

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition

[Guest]

Collateral Damage:Unintended damage, injuries, or deaths caused by an action, especially unintended civilian casualties caused by a military operation.
Partial Birth Abortion:http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/PARTBIRT.TXT

These are the definitions( so there is no confusion)

I have no dogs in this fight. Just posting for clarity. : ))
Keedy

[Guest]

There are 7 doctors dead now for performing legal procedures on women. The doctor in Wichita helped women who, for example, were diagnosed with cancer while at the same time being pregnant. Or when the fetus died while in the womb....this condition can lead to many problems for the surviving mother.

The problem is most people have only heard about the rhetoric and the renaming of the procedure to Partial Birth Abortion.

All of you are so worried about terrorism but you seem to miss the point that this doctor was killed by a terrorist.

[Guest]

I could be wrong but I heard that 70-80% of partial-birth abortions were selective and there was nothing medically wrong with the mother or the child.
I would be very careful on who is described as a terrorist. I would not want to go there.:undecided:

Keedy

[Guest]

I could be wrong but I heard that 70-80% of partial-birth abortions were selective and there was nothing medically wrong with the mother or the child.
I would be very careful on who is described as a terrorist. I would not want to go there.:undecided:

Keedy

Sir....the man was gunned down in a church. There is no difference between his murder than the one in Arkansas. In that one a soldier was just gunned down. Seems the same to me.

I would recheck your facts or the source they come from. There are a lot of crazy's out there. This clinic had been "gone over" many times with claims he was breaking the law. He was not.

If you don't like the law then have the lawmaker's change it....don't kill

[Guest]

Dr. George Hiller was murdered today. I am not stating that what he chose to do in regards to abortion was right or wrong. I am not giving my opinion of abortion....HOWEVER...

It is my opinion that killing him...no matter what one's view on abortion is...was/is completely wrong.


Again...I am not looking to debate to abortion issue. I am stating my opinion that the murder of this human being, this doctor is wrong and very sad!
There are approximately 17,000 murders in the USA each year (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/murder_homicide.html). That breaks out to about 46 per day.

There have been 18 law enforcement officers in the USA gunned down so far this year (that's roughly one a week).

What make Dr. Hiller's death more sad than any one of the other 45 people killed on the same day? What about the three policemen killed so far this month alone? They didn't even get a short line in the news.

Where's the concern for all of the others? Why should an abortionist's murder rate more concern than the rest of the murdered population?

[Guest]

There are approximately 17,000 murders in the USA each year (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/murder_homicide.html). That breaks out to about 46 per day.

There have been 18 law enforcement officers in the USA gunned down so far this year (that's roughly one a week).

What make Dr. Hiller's death more sad than any one of the other 45 people killed on the same day? What about the three policemen killed so far this month alone? They didn't even get a short line in the news.

Where's the concern for all of the others? Why should an abortionist's murder rate more concern than the rest of the murdered population?

Thank-you Steve for the voice of reason. Although I don't want anybody murdered needlessly, the fuss over one abortionist, as compared to the people who protect us, is weird, to say the very least. . Also, I am not particularly fond of reading about comparing our brave men and woman in uniform, all over the world, to this tragic death of just one citizen.
PLease people, venting outrage over politicians is a tradition that spans the history of mankind. Indeed, it is expecting and encouraged as dissent is patriotic, according to whichever party is not currently in office.
To those who say they don't like the "rants"....well, there are plenty of forums to choose.. .
Keedy

[Guest]

**snip** To those who say they don't like the "rants"....well, there are plenty of forums to amuse you. Pick any one.
Keedy

There is also a convenient "Ignore" feature if any poster gets overly vitriolic.

[Guest]

There is also a convenient "Ignore" feature if any poster gets overly vitriolic.

You are right, of course, Kayaker. There are always more gentle and diplomatic ways to express oneself and I for one, will try to improve my prose.

Keedy

[Guest]

There is also a convenient "Ignore" feature if any poster gets overly vitriolic.

Thanks for the heads up/reminder.

[Guest]

There are approximately 17,000 murders in the USA each year (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/murder_homicide.html). That breaks out to about 46 per day.

There have been 18 law enforcement officers in the USA gunned down so far this year (that's roughly one a week).

What make Dr. Hiller's death more sad than any one of the other 45 people killed on the same day? What about the three policemen killed so far this month alone? They didn't even get a short line in the news.

Where's the concern for all of the others? Why should an abortionist's murder rate more concern than the rest of the murdered population?

Were any of these law enforcement offices gunned down at their house of worship? Where any of them targeted for death over a number of years? Was any of them gunned down before? My commenting on his death has absolutely nothing to do with theirs. Perhaps we should start another string about the high rate of murders in this country. Would you like to do that or should I?

I can certainly feel for the 17,000 murders and clearly be upset at the number of Chicago children killed just this year alone. As for the 18 police officers killed in the line of duty my heart goes out to their families.

My point was here is a doctor that was doing his job but he was targeted by some very committed people and from all accounts law enforcement looked the other way.

We all need to tone down the rhetoric....we here are not the problem but who knows who is tuning in and what they might do.

[Guest]

Were any of these law enforcement offices gunned down at their house of worship? Where any of them targeted for death over a number of years? Was any of them gunned down before? My commenting on his death has absolutely nothing to do with theirs. Perhaps we should start another string about the high rate of murders in this country. Would you like to do that or should I?

I can certainly feel for the 17,000 murders and clearly be upset at the number of Chicago children killed just this year alone. As for the 18 police officers killed in the line of duty my heart goes out to their families.

My point was here is a doctor that was doing his job but he was targeted by some very committed people and from all accounts law enforcement looked the other way.We all need to tone down the rhetoric....we here are not the problem but who knows who is tuning in and what they might do.


Do you have any responsible sources to back up that statement? As far as "tuning down" rhetoric...what do you mean? Do you mean movies about assassinating presidents? There goes my memory again but didn't hollywood produce a movie about that subject about the previous Commander In Chief?
Seems the rhetoric has been thrown around quite a bit in the last few years, huh?

[Guest]

There is also a convenient "Ignore" feature if any poster gets overly vitriolic.

Kayaker...how cool is that, an "ignore" switch. Maybe we can have a switch that blocks out all "liberal" posters or all "conservative" posters so we can interact only in the comfort of like minded and less stress provoking thinkers.
Hey....wait a minute....you can do that with the "ignore" switch!

Hmm.... Cologal and I differ frequently, but I respect her posts. Should I spare myself the trauma of a different point of view? Maybe I'll slip her into my.... dare I say...."like minded thinkers box". I hardly ever agree with kahuna on the politcal stuff, but he makes some really cool, well constructed posts especially on the economy. Drat..where do I put him. Can I put you in my "do not ignore box" kayaker? If I don't get a response from you....I guess you hit my "ignore" switch.

Have fun and a good evening in the Villages

[Guest]

Kayaker...how cool is that, an "ignore" switch. Maybe we can have a switch that blocks out all "liberal" posters or all "conservative" posters so we can interact only in the comfort of like minded and less stress provoking thinkers.
Hey....wait a minute....you can do that with the "ignore" switch!

Hmm.... Cologal and I differ frequently, but I respect her posts. Should I spare myself the trauma of a different point of view? Maybe I'll slip her into my.... dare I say...."like minded thinkers box". I hardly ever agree with kahuna on the politcal stuff, but he makes some really cool, well constructed posts especially on the economy. Drat..where do I put him. Can I put you in my "do not ignore box" kayaker? If I don't get a response from you....I guess you hit my "ignore" switch.

Have fun and a good evening in the Villages

Very well articulated Carbo. I wish I had your command of the english language because you just expressed what I was thinking but in a more eloquent way. :thumbup:

Keedy

[Guest]

Do you have any responsible sources to back up that statement? As far as "tuning down" rhetoric...what do you mean? Do you mean movies about assassinating presidents? There goes my memory again but didn't hollywood produce a movie about that subject about the previous Commander In Chief?
Seems the rhetoric has been thrown around quite a bit in the last few years, huh?

I am NOT talking about anything having to do with this President or the Previous President. But I have not heard nor seen a movie like that nor would I condone its production.

The anti abortion rhetoric in Kansas, for example is unbelievable. Lets talk about the anti gay rhetoric that has led to attacks and deaths, in Tenn., at Unitarian Churchs.

We have one bomber, of abortion clinics, in jail, 7 doctors dead. I think the death toll in Knoxville might have been about 7-8.

[Guest]

Kayaker...how cool is that, an "ignore" switch. Maybe we can have a switch that blocks out all "liberal" posters or all "conservative" posters so we can interact only in the comfort of like minded and less stress provoking thinkers.
Hey....wait a minute....you can do that with the "ignore" switch!

Hmm.... Cologal and I differ frequently, but I respect her posts. Should I spare myself the trauma of a different point of view? Maybe I'll slip her into my.... dare I say...."like minded thinkers box". I hardly ever agree with kahuna on the politcal stuff, but he makes some really cool, well constructed posts especially on the economy. Drat..where do I put him. Can I put you in my "do not ignore box" kayaker? If I don't get a response from you....I guess you hit my "ignore" switch.

Have fun and a good evening in the Villages

Hey Cabo...I have you on my "He's a pretty good guy list". Maybe we can go fishing sometime if you promise I won't get sea sick.

Have a great evening.....

Still Laughing......

[Guest]

I am NOT talking about anything having to do with this President or the Previous President. But I have not heard nor seen a movie like that nor would I condone its production.

The anti abortion rhetoric in Kansas, for example is unbelievable. Lets talk about the anti gay rhetoric that has led to attacks and deaths, in Tenn., at Unitarian Churchs.

We have one bomber, of abortion clinics, in jail, 7 doctors dead. I think the death toll in Knoxville might have been about 7-8.
And that's supposed to be the fault of law enforcement?

I'm not sure how "unbelievable" is quantified.

[Guest]

I am NOT talking about anything having to do with this President or the Previous President. But I have not heard nor seen a movie like that nor would I condone its production.

The anti abortion rhetoric in Kansas, for example is unbelievable. Lets talk about the anti gay rhetoric that has led to attacks and deaths, in Tenn., at Unitarian Churchs.

We have one bomber, of abortion clinics, in jail, 7 doctors dead. I think the death toll in Knoxville might have been about 7-8.

The anti-abortion rhetoric in Kansas? I grew up in Kansas City, have always had family there and visited family in Overland Park, Kansas this spring. I have not encountered any such rhetoric. When and where did you observe it?

Jim Atkinson, the man who committed the murders you reference in Tennessee, is quoted as saying, “he hated the liberal movement” and was upset with “liberals in general as well as gays.” There is no question that this is a deeply disturbed man, but he made no attempt to identify gays. This was not the result of anti-gay rhetoric, but probably related to the fact that his ex-wife had been a member of the church.

Both of these are isolated acts performed by sick men. No one has come forward in support of either of them. BTW, the death toll in Knoxville was two not 7-8. Steve is absolutely correct when he points out that the murder of Dr. Tiller coverage was totally out of proportion as has been the coverage of the Caylee Anthony death. These may get ratings, but draw coverage away from more serious threats such as gang violence and terrorism

[Guest]

And that's supposed to be the fault of law enforcement?

I'm not sure how "unbelievable" is quantified.


Yes the killer was caught, the day before, in Kansas City trying to vandalize a clinic there. They called the FBI who told them they could do nothing until a Grand Jury was convened. Had they arrested the guy the Doctor would be alive today.

[Guest]

The anti-abortion rhetoric in Kansas? I grew up in Kansas City, have always had family there and visited family in Overland Park, Kansas this spring. I have not encountered any such rhetoric. When and where did you observe it?

Jim Atkinson, the man who committed the murders you reference in Tennessee, is quoted as saying, “he hated the liberal movement” and was upset with “liberals in general as well as gays.” There is no question that this is a deeply disturbed man, but he made no attempt to identify gays. This was not the result of anti-gay rhetoric, but probably related to the fact that his ex-wife had been a member of the church.

Both of these are isolated acts performed by sick men. No one has come forward in support of either of them. BTW, the death toll in Knoxville was two not 7-8. Steve is absolutely correct when he points out that the murder of Dr. Tiller coverage was totally out of proportion as has been the coverage of the Caylee Anthony death. These may get ratings, but draw coverage away from more serious threats such as gang violence and terrorism

I went to school in Kansas... Dodge City. Very small Catholic College.

What about Rudolf? And the bombing and killing he did.

[Guest]

When I first seen this thread posted I was hoping nobody would respond and it would die a natural forum death, so to speak. One reason is because when this happened another big news event was ignored and I didn't think it was right. The media gave this alot of ink and almost totally ignored the muslim terrorist who killed an American Soldier in cold blood.
Why is that?:sad:

[Guest]

When I first seen this thread posted I was hoping nobody would respond and it would die a natural forum death, so to speak. One reason is because when this happened another big news event was ignored and I didn't think it was right. The media gave this alot of ink and almost totally ignored the muslim terrorist who killed an American Soldier in cold blood.
Why is that?:sad:

Check my posts I referenced it....you missed that?

[Guest]

Check my posts I referenced it....you missed that?

I'm talking about when you first started this thread. The mainstream media all but ignored the death of that innocent soldier by that muslim terrorist. Shows you where their priorities are.:sad:

[Guest]

I went to school in Kansas... Dodge City. Very small Catholic College.

What about Rudolf? And the bombing and killing he did.


How much 'anti-abortion rhetoric' that would encourage the killing of people did you hear or see while at that college? How much have you actually observed in Kansas in the last twenty years.

What about Rudolph? Eric Rudolph. He is the man who performed the Olympic bombing during 1996 summer Olympics in Atlanta, killing one person and injuring another 111. He was later to bomb two abortion clinics and a lesbian bar, killing one more person in these actions. He was finally found by the FBI in 2003 and tried and convicted in 2005. He will spend the rest of his life in prison. He has joined Ted Kaczynski, the extreme leftist unabomer, in the ‘supermax’ prison in Colorado.

Both of these guys are fruitcakes. Kaczynski sent a total of 18 bombs killing 3 and injuring 27. Because of the impact of their actions, both should have, and did, receive significant media attention. Despite their statements, we will never understand what caused these men to do the things they did. While Rudolph has stated he did what he did because of abortion – his most successful bomb, the Atlanta Olympics, had nothing to do with that agenda.

Attacks of this type are, thankfully, rare. There has not been an abortion related killing until Dr. Hiller since 1993 from what I have been able to ascertain. I may certainly be wrong. If so, correction is always appreciated.

I reiterate, we need to focus our attention on the major causes of murder including gang violence (esp. the rapidly escalating Mexican drug cartel violence in the USA) and terrorism. Dr. Hiller’s murder was obscene, but no more so than the drive-by shootings of innocents that routinely occur in our cities.

[Guest]

OK here is some logic for you.

If the media blames anti-abortion protests for the murder of an abortion doctor.

Does that mean they should blame the anti-war movement for the murder of an american soldier?

Think about it...think real hard about it.

Keedy

[Guest]

OK here is some logic for you.

If the media blames anti-abortion protests for the murder of an abortion doctor.

Does that mean they should blame the anti-war movement for the murder of an American soldier?

Think about it...think real hard about it.

Keedy

Actually no.... in this case a known anti-abortion protester did in fact kill this doctor so a hypothetical really doesn't apply. Now if an anti-war protester killed a soldier or bombed a recruiting station then yes.

As a member of the anti-war movement I can tell you I have never done anything than peacefully protest. As is my right protected by the brave soldiers who fight to keep this country free. I am always proud to say that I have 2 nephews in the military. A 1st LT in the Army, and a Staff Sargent in the Marines...the Marine has served in Iraq 4 times and was wounded once. And just in case you would like to know they both support my protesting the Iraq war. To support the troops I donate travel size shampoo and lotion to Operation Shoebox and I donate all of my unneeded goods and furniture to their Thrift Store, in TV. I also donate Java for the Troops which is run by Starbucks. I live, in the summer, very close to Fort Carson, CO. The Starbucks here will be sending 600 lbs of coffee when the troop ship out.

I am anti-war but I definitely support the troops.

[Guest]

You didn't answer my question.

You said this:
Lets talk about the anti gay rhetoric that has led to attacks and deaths, in Tenn., at Unitarian Churchs.

You said this in this thread. Using your own logic... Anti war rhetoric can lead to death and attacks on soldiers.
There are crazies in every protest. Anti abortion...anti homosexuality...anti war. It only takes one of the crazies to act on his (her) emotions.

Look around when you go to one of your protests....you may recognize the next terrorist when his picture is on the television.
Keedy

[Guest]

I'm talking about when you first started this thread. The mainstream media all but ignored the death of that innocent soldier by that muslim terrorist. Shows you where their priorities are.:sad:


I started this thread...at the time I did not know anything about the soldier that was killed. I learned about Dr. Hiller from my mother....she is the mother of two Marines....she had not heard of the death of the soldier either....trust me that would have been my topic if that was the case.

Our opinion on both is the same....they were both their jobs....neither were engaged in illegal activities, warranting their death....both murders are deplorable and senseless and extremely maddening that this world continues to kill it's own.

The point of the thread was simply that violence in the world for any reason what's so ever is not the answer to any problem or disagreemnt.

Dr. Hiller was the example that was on my mind at the time. It was sad to me...so are all of the other stories.

[Guest]

I started this thread...at the time I did not know anything about the soldier that was killed. I learned about Dr. Hiller from my mother....she is the mother of two Marines....she had not heard of the death of the soldier either....trust me that would have been my topic if that was the case.

Our opinion on both is the same....they were both their jobs....neither were engaged in illegal activities, warranting their death....both murders are deplorable and senseless and extremely maddening that this world continues to kill it's own.

The point of the thread was simply that violence in the world for any reason what's so ever is not the answer to any problem or disagreemnt.

Dr. Hiller was the example that was on my mind at the time. It was sad to me...so are all of the other stories.

You are right...I don't know why I thought she started this thread. By the way...isn't the abortionist named Tiller with a "T"? I have been reading it here as Hiller and my friend has been correcting me. LOL

[Guest]

You are right...I don't know why I thought she started this thread. By the way...isn't the abortionist named Tiller with a "T"? I have been reading it here as Hiller and my friend has been correcting me. LOL

yes...it is indeed T not H....



Cologal....my good friend...I love your passion....whether we agree on a topic or not(and it happens occaionally)....I thank you for your passion!!!

Same with the rest of you!!

[Guest]

Yes the killer was caught, the day before, in Kansas City trying to vandalize a clinic there. They called the FBI who told them they could do nothing until a Grand Jury was convened. Had they arrested the guy the Doctor would be alive today.
Arrested him for what?

Let's be realistic here. Luckily we live in a place where the state can't arrest you for what it thinks you might do. If it could, we'd all probably be behind bars at some time or another.

And if any law enforcement agency had arrested him as a potential criminal, the ACLU and others would be there on the jailhouse steps, and the person would out in a heartbeat, suing the agency for unlawful arrest (and would have a good case).

So, a nut went and killed a person who was not performing illegal acts. Almost everyone who is murdered was not performing illegal acts.

So, the same nut killed a person in a church, in front of many witnesses. Just goes to show the person is a nut.

In a land of 300,000,000 residents, if 99.9% of the population are "sane and balanced," that still leaves 300,000 borderline (or worse) cases running around out there. That's a lot of kooks out there!

[Guest]

Keedy--- The media was quick to blame people who spoke out against Tiller. Don't expect the same coverage of the military killing. The killer was a Muslim who hated our military. The media only trumpets what fits their agenda.

[Guest]

Keedy--- The media was quick to blame people who spoke out against Tiller. Don't expect the same coverage of the military killing. The killer was a Muslim who hated our military. The media only trumpets what fits their agenda.

Thank-you for your response Sally Jo. It is like living in a world upside-down and 55% of the people are standing on their heads thinking this is normal.*sigh*

Keedy

[Guest]

You didn't answer my question.

You said this:
Lets talk about the anti gay rhetoric that has led to attacks and deaths, in Tenn., at Unitarian Churchs.

You said this in this thread. Using your own logic... Anti war rhetoric can lead to death and attacks on soldiers.
There are crazies in every protest. Anti abortion...anti homosexuality...anti war. It only takes one of the crazies to act on his (her) emotions.

Look around when you go to one of your protests....you may recognize the next terrorist when his picture is on the television.
Keedy

The last one I went to was maybe 6 years ago at the start of the war when my nephew the Marine was on the boat heading for his 1st of 4 tours in Iraq. I saw religious leaders, your average people and a number of family members. You once told me not to use the word terrorist so lightly...now I say the same to you.

You are using a hypothetical..when you use the word CAN. I am using the word DID.

[Guest]

The last one I went to was maybe 6 years ago at the start of the war when my nephew the Marine was on the boat heading for his 1st of 4 tours in Iraq. I saw religious leaders, your average people and a number of family members. You once told me not to use the word terrorist so lightly...now I say the same to you.

You are using a hypothetical..when you use the word CAN. I am using the word DID.

Not sure I understand your post. All I am saying is that you decried protests against abortions and thought that all the rhetoric caused the hatred that caused Tiller's death. My retort was that you can use that same logic to explain away the death of the soldier. I have seen the hate at those protests. Burning the American flag and pictures of President Bush incites the very hate that you describe at the anti-abortion rallies.
Like Steve said, it is a tiny percentage of the protesters that are nuts. Those nuts attend all the protest rallies...not just the anti-abortion rallies.

Keedy

[Guest]

Not sure I understand your post. All I am saying is that you decried protests against abortions and thought that all the rhetoric caused the hatred that caused Tiller's death. My retort was that you can use that same logic to explain away the death of the soldier. I have seen the hate at those protests. Burning the American flag and pictures of President Bush incites the very hate that you describe at the anti-abortion rallies.
Like Steve said, it is a tiny percentage of the protesters that are nuts. Those nuts attend all the protest rallies...not just the anti-abortion rallies.

Keedy

If you mean the death of the soldier in Arkansas...he was killed by a home grown terrorist.

This thread is about the death of Dr. Tiller...not about the anti war movement, not about Bush and not about anything else you might try and use to change the subject.

[Guest]

If you mean the death of the soldier in Arkansas...he was killed by a home grown terrorist.

This thread is about the death of Dr. Tiller...not about the anti war movement, not about Bush and not about anything else you might try and use to change the subject.

Violence does not make anything right! Is the title of this thread. Is that your retort? Hmmmmm
You have been all over the place with your posts. Wasn't it you who mentioned the gays?:shrug:

[Guest]

Violence does not make anything right! Is the title of this thread. Is that your retort? Hmmmmm
You have been all over the place with your posts. Wasn't it you who mentioned the gays?:shrug:

Enough!