Cap and Trade Primer

[Guest]

http://www.sightline.org/research/energy/res_pubs/cap-and-trade-101

Download report.. pretty unbiased look see... several options

[Guest]

Page 21 Rebates for all is very interesting. As with all analysis of this type certain assumptions will have been made, (especially as we here in Seattle are tree hugger types anyway) But if the $700 pp rebate is even close and we all drive golf carts in the villages with solar recarging stations on our houses we will be money ahead. Maybe?? :shrug:

[Guest]

http://www.sightline.org/research/energy/res_pubs/cap-and-trade-101

Download report.. pretty unbiased look see... several options

By "unbiased" you must assume that there is actually a "global warming" that is caused by mankind. The agenda will never go away.:blahblahblah:

[Guest]

By "unbiased" you must assume that there is actually a "global warming" that is caused by mankind. The agenda will never go away.:blahblahblah:

This Hawaiian is telling you we have lost nearly a foot of beach do to the change in the ocean level at home. This is not some nerdy scientific maybe this maybe that thing the water level is higher period. You can see changes here at the beaches in the Puget Sound area as well.

[Guest]

By "unbiased" you must assume that there is actually a "global warming" that is caused by mankind. The agenda will never go away.:blahblahblah:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1206_041206_global_warming.html :cryin2:

[Guest]

Well, if we are going to communicate by posting links then I guess I'm game. It certainly is easier then articulating::beer3: TAKE THE TEST:
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/GlobWarmTest/start.html

[Guest]

...you must assume that there is actually a "global warming" that is caused by mankind. ...

I know some people don't believe there is global warming. Based on an article I read today, that probably doesn't include the almost 400,000 people who live in The Maldive Islands. Projections are that within the next 40-50 years, ocean levels will rise about 80 feet due to the melting of the polar ice caps and there will be no more Maldives...the entire country will be under water!

Now I know that getting Americans all excited about a bunch of islander-fishermen way out in the Indian Ocean isn't very likely. But just looking at a map, how many millions of people will be affected by an 80-foot rise in the ocean on the southern coast of India? The 14 million people who live in Mumbai (Bombay) can call the moving vans. But what will the 237 million who live in Indonesia do? There's another country that will largely disappear.

For that matter, what else will disappear if the oceans rise by 80 feet? We'll be OK here in The Villages--we're sitting pretty at 86 feet above sea level. One could say that what's happening is a good thing--we'll be that much closer to the beaches. An 80-foot rise in sea level would make the southern tip of Florida at about Lake Ocheechobee. Getting to the beach from The Villages would be an easy 20 mile drive either east or west. But, nah! Global warming is nothing to worry about. Not when we have all the other stuff we argue about here. I wonder what Joe the Plumber would say about this?

Many are quite certain that global warming is man-made. Others deny that it even is occurring. One thing seems petty certain--whatever is causing the polar ice caps to disappear, man better figure out how to slow down the onset of the warm front.

[Guest]

I know some people don't believe there is global warming. Based on an article I read today, that probably doesn't include the almost 400,000 people who live in The Maldive Islands. Projections are that within the next 40-50 years, ocean levels will rise about 80 feet due to the melting of the polar ice caps and there will be no more Maldives...the entire country will be under water!

Now I know that getting Americans all excited about a bunch of islander-fishermen way out in the Indian Ocean isn't very likely. But just looking at a map, how many millions of people will be affected by an 80-foot rise in the ocean on the southern coast of India? The 14 million people who live in Mumbai (Bombay) can call the moving vans. But what will the 237 million who live in Indonesia do? There's another country that will largely disappear.

For that matter, what else will disappear if the oceans rise by 80 feet? We'll be OK here in The Villages--we're sitting pretty at 86 feet above sea level. But what about Tampa or Miami, or even New York City?

Many are quite certain that global warming is man-made. Others deny that it even is occurring. One thing seems petty certain--whatever is causing the polar ice caps to disappear, man better figure out how to slow down the onset of the warm front.

Sounds like fear mongering to me. I thought the ice caps were getting bigger.
Did you take my test in my link above?
Here is a link to the lefties myths.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=19468

[Guest]

This Hawaiian is telling you we have lost nearly a foot of beach do to the change in the ocean level at home. This is not some nerdy scientific maybe this maybe that thing the water level is higher period. You can see changes here at the beaches in the Puget Sound area as well.

But, does man have anything to do with it and can man fix it?

We know that global warming is a fraud. That's why they now call it climate change.

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition

[Guest]

Many are quite certain that global warming is man-made. Others deny that it even is occurring. One thing seems petty certain--whatever is causing the polar ice caps to disappear, man better figure out how to slow down the onset of the warm front.

VK before you speak of the disappearance of the polar ice cap, I suggest that you look at the data yourself rather than the political blather. Start with the Cryosphere Today site maintained by the University of Illinois. Here you can look at the actual data and find that the polar ice caps is slightly higher than the 1979-2000 mean. You do not need to be a ‘rocket scientist’ to see that the total sea ice area is not decreasing, but rather increasing. If you wonder why the politicians are saying otherwise, do the logical thing and follow the money.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

[Guest]

If the ocean level rises a few feet, wouldn't that be good for the whales and other sea creatures? What about drought - wouldn't that also be less of a problem?

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. That includes trying to manipulate the climate.

How do we know whatever is done to "thwart global warming" (that isn't a concession that global warming is occurring) won't do more harm than "good?" What is the potential that "prevenion of global warming" efforts won't be just like TARP and the other bailouts - money wasted on the premise that any action was better than no action? Boy, did we get hosed on that one!

I don't claim to have the answer, but I sure have a lot of questions. And if global warming is occurring (again, no concession on that one) one of the questions is, what are the trade-offs? Again, for every action, thee is an equal and opposite reaction - and none of the "good" ones (e.g., less drought, diluting pollution in the oceans, etc.) have been discussed. Why?

[Guest]

Steve has repeatedly asked, “What is normal?” The answer is that there is no normal or that temperature variations within those observed in any previous interglacial period are normal. The earth is approximately 1 degree Celsius warmer today than it was at the end of the ‘little ice age’ toward the end of the nineteenth century. According to The US Geological survey. We are in an interglacial period. Sea levels in previous interglacial periods were 3 to 20 meters (10-67 feet) higher than they are today. During the last glacial period, sea levels were 125 meters (410 feet) lower than they are today.

All of these conditions are a part of the earth’s ‘normal’ climate variation. Anthropogenic warming cannot account for previous interglacial periods being hotter than they are today. Temperature variations during an interglacial period are normal. During the mid Holocene period (5,000 to 7,000 years ago) temperatures in the northern hemisphere were about 2 degrees Celsius warmer than they are today. Again, this is ‘normal’.

Some scientist believe that the sun is entering a period of inactivity similar to that of the Maunder Minimum that brought about the ‘little ice age.’ Others dispute this despite the data. In other words, what we do know is that the climate will continue to change. We do not know if anthropogenic warming is occurring, or what, if anything we can do about it.

[Guest]

or any other feel good title of the subjects...warrants so much more attention with it's uncertainty......get smore play than the reality of the need for energy independence?

Because the politicians have chosen to make it a priority and we the sheeple lap it up.

The consequences of foreign oil dependance is real. Results can be felt every day....and the soon to come (again) pain at the pump MAYBE will put it on page one where the risks to our future are predictable. We WILL see and feel it in our life time and our grandchildren and future generations will definely have a lessor quality of life as a result.

Still, the whimsical notion, of global warming (which has come and gone over the years, gets the attention.

Global warming,if a reality, MAY affect future generations....MAY!!!!
Dependence on foreign oil is a NOW problem, SOON to affect all our lives gets no priority.

Are the sheeple being managed by the few? This too is a reality...what is it going to take to focus on the REAL problems we gace?

btk

[Guest]

For longer then mankind has existed, planet earth has warmed and it has cooled. BBQ has it exactly right. The first clue that the "Global Warming" movement was a scam occurred when they changed the rallying call to "Climate Change" as Yoda astutely observed. The global warning hucksters want to cover all bets.

"Cap and Trade" in spite of all the fancy rhetoric, slick websites and feel good window dressing is nothing more than another insidious political formula for big government to tax the sheep without calling it an income tax. Any increased cost incurred by business and industry will be passed onto the sheep in the form of cost increases for energy and consumer products effected by "Cap and Trade".

The sheep will never know what hit them until it's too late. The sad part is, they will never have saved a tree or the Maldives. How far above sea level are The Villages? Lower than the Maldives you say? Uh-oh.....global warming will bring new meaning to water hazard in TV.

BBQMan - Thank you for an intelligent, rational, common sense response unencumbered by "junk" science and the myth of global warming.

[Guest]

If some consensus can be reached that the temperature of the earth is rising, whether it be normal long-term climate change or the product of mankind, is there anything that mankind should do about it in order to possibly artificially reverse the trend?

If the up and down tends are in fact "normal", some things have changed quite a lot since the last time there was a significant enough change in global temperature to melt the polar ice caps. That change is that there are hundreds of millions more inhabitants on the earth than there were the last time this happened. Hundreds of millions of those live in areas that would disappear if the 80-foot rise in ocean levels were actually to occur. Eighty feet? Say goodbye to the two largest cities in America. In fact, I think we could say goodbye to Tokyo, Mumbai, Sao Paulo, Calcutta, Buenos Aires, Manila, Rio de Janiero, and on and on. Add San Francisco, Miami, Houston and Washington to New York and Los Angeles, which would all be underwater if the oceans rose by 80 feet.

Hey! Maybe I've answered my own question and identified an opportunity at the same time. The problem of global warming is so massive--regardless of what's causing it--that it's probably unsolvable. What's going to happen will happen. But we've been moaning about how to get rid of those elected representatives that are supposed to look after governing us in Washington. With no Washington, what are the chances they'd all go back home and not come back?

Too bad none of us will be around to find out.

[Guest]

If some consensus can be reached that the temperature of the earth is rising, whether it be normal long-term climate change or the product of mankind, is there anything that mankind should do about it in order to possibly artificially reverse the trend?

In fact, I think we could say goodbye to Tokyo, Mumbai, Sao Paulo, Calcutta, Buenos Aires, Manila, Rio de Janiero, and on and on. Add San Francisco, Miami, Houston and Washington to New York and Los Angeles, which would all be underwater if the oceans rose by 80 feet.


Too bad none of us will be around to find out.


How bout we build an ark? Sorry K, I couldn't resist.

Don't worry, WE will all be here for awhile. If the 80 ft level really happens....it is a long, long, long way in the future. The increments will be so slow, adaptation will appear natural. These things don't happen overnight unless a giant asteroid lands in the ocean and of course that has nothing to do with the subject of global warming. Some scientists suggest we're all going to wind up in one of the those solar masses called a black hole. Even the simplest explanation of a black hole is beyond me. Maybe you will do better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole

Somehow the threat of a nuclear Iran, a nuclear North Korea and the ever increasing likelihood of terrorists buying nuclear devices or other WMD's from either of the above, concern me more at the moment than global warming, especially with family in the "Big Apple" area.

Thanks for the personal insights on your recent medical experience. Eye opening.

[Guest]

Then the answer is obvious - appoint a "Global Warming Czar" and give the GW Czar: a staff; a significant budget (at taxpayer expense); oversight over NOAA, the Department of the Interior, Department of Energy and a few obtuse agencies nobody knows about; and a requirement to put out an annual report to Congress like all of the other czars and agencies and offices do. Not much will be accomplished, but a bunch of money will be spent and appointees will have titles, limousines (green, of course), office space and pensions.

Wanna bet that's next?

[Guest]

LOL I am a newbie but I can say that Steve is dead on as always.:beer3: