Roundabouts Part 9

[Russ_Boston]

While visiting for the better part of 3 weeks in May I came across many bizarre methods of navigating the roundabouts. I thought "geez, maybe they have a different method down here than we do in MASS?"

I mean it always seemed so simple:

Don't enter the roundabout if someone is in it. i.e. YIELD
Stay to the right (outside lane) if you want to take the first right or continue straight through.
Stay to the lift (inside) lane to go straight through or take an exit past that or do a u-turn.

That's it, real simple 1-2-3 rules

After reading this forum again it seems that some of you have other ideas about this. So I went to source and found this document: http://www.districtgov.org/images/WhatsNew/RoundaboutBrochure%20-%20FINAL070908.pdf

You know what? It says exactly what I thought - IT IS REAL SIMPLE.


Am I off somehow? Isn't this relatively easy to understand? Sure beats having red lights everywhere in my opinion.

[downeaster]

Actually, Russ, since the rules of negotiating a roundabout have been published I think I have seen an improvement in their use. You still have to look out for those who don't understand and there are many as not all states have roundabouts.

[chuckinca]

What's wrong with staying in the outside lane until you want out - who would know or care where you got into the roundabout?

.

[tony]

There seems to be a hitch in this.

1. Car One is going north and wants to end up going west.
2. Car Two is going south and wants to continue going south.

If both follow protocol they have to avoid a possible collision when Car 1 is exiting the circle from the "inside" lane to go west and is crossing the "outside" lane where Car Two is staying traveling to continue going south?

No? Help me through this, New Englanders.

And also, the circles seem so small compared those I used when I worked in Philadelphia.

[KathieI]

Does this help?? Oh Dear, I hope this link works:::

http://www.virginiatrace.com/2009/images/RoundaboutBrochure%20-%20FINAL070908.pdf

[Russ_Boston]

There seems to be a hitch in this.

1. Car One is going north and wants to end up going west.
2. Car Two is going south and wants to continue going south.

If both follow protocol they have to avoid a possible collision when Car 1 is exiting the circle from the "inside" lane to go west and is crossing the "outside" lane where Car Two is staying traveling to continue going south?

No? Help me through this, New Englanders.

And also, the circles seem so small compared those I used when I worked in Philadelphia.

Well that would assume that both enter the circle at/near the same time and if they did they would be approx. 1/2 the distance of the rotary apart from each other - therefore no issues.

If either one saw the other in the rotary going around then they are not supposed to enter until clear (i.e. yield). There should be no way for the south bound car to be next to the now west bound car.

[Russ_Boston]

Does this help?? Oh Dear, I hope this link works:::

http://www.virginiatrace.com/2009/images/RoundaboutBrochure%20-%20FINAL070908.pdf


Is this different than the link I posted? Or is my link not working for you?

[KathieI]

Sorry, Russ, didn't see your link.

[Russ_Boston]

What's wrong with staying in the outside lane until you want out - who would know or care where you got into the roundabout?

.

This is exactly what happens. Two cars enter the rotary both going north. The outside line has to exit at either the first right or the straight through. Otherwise the outside lane can cut off the inside line if that inside guy is going straight through and the outside keeps going around.

This happened many times to me. I was careful so no accidents happened but it is not acceptable driving rules according to the rotary rules published.

[Bogie Shooter]

A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/eesc/CAE/designvisualization/video/Portfolio/Modern_Roundabouts/mpg_index.htm

[chuckinca]

This is exactly what happens. Two cars enter the rotary both going north. The outside line has to exit at either the first right or the straight through. Otherwise the outside lane can cut off the inside line if that inside guy is going straight through and the outside keeps going around.

This happened many times to me. I was careful so no accidents happened but it is not acceptable driving rules according to the rotary rules published.


It wouldn't happen if you didn't get in the inside lane. The people in the inside lane shouldn't be there.

(I believe that there is an earlier thread on this subject wherein someone stated the sheriff's dept recommend using only the outside lane in TV due to the small size of the roundabouts).

About the only place I know that using both lanes is normally OK is the roundabout just south of 466 on Morse where 99% of the cars in both directions are going to go straight thru but it could get ugly if someone in the outside lane decided not to go straight.


.

[billethkid]

it does require a dash of common sense and a smidge of courtesy.
And there will always be the clowns and clownettes who assume rules, courtesy and common sense do not mean them.

You know several of the circles merge down to one lane as one continues in the inside lane. Well two weeks ago I was in the inside merging down lane and
one of the clowns tried to get around me....yup he hit me....drove me onto the curb in the center of the circle. Fair amount of damage to my car....more to his. Thank goodness nobody was hurt.

I see this type driver every single day on the road in TV.
I just wish they had a citizens' arrest law here in FL....unfortunately they don't.

The solution...more cops....more tickets...let the counties revenues triple and beyond....but get these peopel who are either in a hurry and speeding or cutting others off. More cops....more patrols...more tickets...

btk

[Russ_Boston]

The people in the inside lane shouldn't be there..

No offense - but that's just plain wrong. Hundreds of times (probably ALL the time in the winter season) you have two lane traffic heading in the same direction as they approach the roundabout. Heck to take a left you HAVE to be on the inside lane. I'm not sure what you are suggesting. I do agree that getting to the outside lane to go straight is preferable if you can.

It is very simple. Don't cross from the outside to the inside at ANY time while IN the rotary and you can't have an accident. Of course if it merges to one lane then that outside lane is supposed to take that cut through they provide. This is the only times that the lanes merge I think. If you are taking a left (or u-turn) then you need to navigate to the inside lane PRIOR to entering the rotary.

That was my point for starting this thread again. I can't believe how some people think there are other options beside what is called for in the link I provided.

If you have an accident in the rotary it is because someone didn't follow these very simple rules.

[Ooper]

I've watched these threads on rotaries since day one. And everybody has an opinion. In my opinion, I would think the weight of safely exiting a rotary would fall on the driver of the inside lane if there was one. Normally, ( although many people in TV don't exhibit that behavior ) but normally, a driver driving down a straight street would never think of turning right from an inside (middle) lane and cutting off a driver in the outside lane... why should they do that in a curved road or a rotary? I would think that if 2 cars adjacent to each other in a rotary, the inside car should yield to the outer lane... just common sense. The inside lane driver needs to slow down well before he/she exits to make sure it is safe, or, continue going around for another try if not. Again, this is just my opinion. I agree, the round-a-bouts were built too small... if you get a large truck in them, they will effectively take up both lanes throughout the rotary. I don't think a car will argue with a truck exiting. Why not practice the same caution with all vehicles, no matter what lane you're in.

[EdV]

If the rules for navigating roundabouts are so simple, why does it take two pages and five diagrams to explain it?

As long as they continue to build roundabouts with two lanes and multiple exits, there will be problems, accidents, and angered drivers.

[Russ_Boston]

Absolutely agree with the caution. Legally the inside lane has the right to go straight through without yielding but as you know do so at your own peril!

[Russ_Boston]

If the rules for navigating roundabouts are so simple, why does it take two pages and five diagrams to explain it?

As long as they continue to build roundabouts with two lanes and multiple exits, there will be problems, accidents, and angered drivers.

I actually find the diagrams very easy to understand - they just give every option.

[SABRMnLgs]

My wife and I lived and drove in Maine for 14+ years, never had a problem with rotaries. Then we moved to Florida and problems abounded.
IMHO, I don't feel it is the problem with the rotaries, rather with the drivers. Although these rotaries are a bit smaller than what we had, the same rules must apply. Problem is visitors and those who have no rotaries and of course those that feel "it does not apply to me". Same as coming to a red light and not moving to a center lane so those who want to turn right can do so, wether an arrow is there or not.
Ever notice those with NE license plates have no trouble? Common sense should apply unfortunately for some, wisdom does NOT come with age when driving.

[swrinfla]

Here's the way I drive these puzzles, mostly based on Sumter County's helpful pamphlet.

If I'm going to turn off at the first exit (right), I always enter the circle on the outside lane.

If I'm going to turn off at the second exit (straight ahead), I always enter the circle on the outside lane, even though I could also enter on the inside.

If I'm going to turn off at the third exit (left), or if I'm going to make a u-turn, I always enter the circle and continue in it on theinside lane.

And, I think that this is the most important hint: always keep your eyes open, always signal your intentions, always remember that it's the other guy who's going to cause you trouble!

SWR

:pepper2:

[Bogie Shooter]

And then there is the alternative.....stop signs or traffic lights to replace every round a bout....YUK!

[Russ_Boston]

:agree::agree::agree:And then there is the alternative.....stop signs or traffic lights to replace every round a bout....YUK!

[katezbox]

:eclipsee_gold_cup::agree::bowdown:

From another New Englander...

[Don H]

The Washington State video is good as is the pdf file that Russ mentioned. The video really helped us out during our visit in March. I was just wondering...imagine how it would be to visit the UK and drive on one of their roundabouts. Whoa......!

[billethkid]

TV resident drivers capability.....yield and courtesy. Far, FAR too many operate on the basis the right of way is theirs to take instead of theirs to give.

Just plain old nasty, get outta my way attitude form the big city.

Plain and simple. Just observing certain drivers traits around TV....if you put your turn signal on to merge into a line of traffic.....more than 50% of the time the other driver will tighten up as if to say....not in front of me you don't.

Florida's Friendliest home town (until they get behind the wheel that is).

btk

[BarbinNH]

Boy, I'm with Russ and Kate. I love the roundabouts here and have a hard time understanding why the rules are confusing to some people. But then, although I'm a native Californian, I just finished spending 11 years in New Hampshire. So maybe that's the reason I'm so comfortable with them.

To me, it helps if you look at roundabouts as being like any other intersection; if you are going down the road and want to make a left turn or u-turn, you always do it from the left lane, which is the inside lane on a roundabout. If you want to go straight, you use either lane. And if you want to turn right, you use the right lane. And this works perfectly if people yield to cars already on the roundabout.

This is a hot topic with me, as yesterday afternoon, we almost had a four car accident on the Morse/Stillwater roundabout. Luckily, everybody stopped until it was sorted out. But it was 2 cars on the outside lane cutting off 2 cars in the inside lane who were legally correct because they were making a left turn.

Knowing that not everyone knows or understands the rules, every time I legally exit from the inside lane, I always keep my eyes open and look over my right shoulder. I love it here and want to stay alive!

My husband John just commented that there's one general rule for the roundabouts here, "Be afraid!" I guess that sums it up.

Barb (NOT in NH)

[zcaveman]

And then there is the alternative.....stop signs or traffic lights to replace every round a bout....YUK!

I agree with the YUK. Not even a choice. How many times do you get to the roundabout and there is no traffic. Imagine no traffic and a red light or a stop sigh. I prefer the yield option.

I get in the right hand lane and follow it around until my exit. I keep my eye on anyone in the left hand lane to see what they are going to do. If I see one getting close, I put on my blinker to let them know I am not turning at this exit.

No one should ever turn from the left hand lane across a line of traffic to exit. Not logical or safe.

[SABRMnLgs]

Caveman, that is exactly the idea .........THERE SHOULD BE NO TRAFFIC when you move from the inside to outside lane. Outside lane should have already exited (using turn signals of course). If you need to leave at the next
exit only two things can occur, if your in the inside lane of the rotary, you drive to the inside lane of your exit OR if two cars are exiting, you use the inside lane as you exit and the other driver uses the outside lane.

Lets put it another way to make it simple. You are going down a road and come to an intersection that shows two right turn arrows. Both lanes turn right. Not hard to comprehend. If you are going straight, you don't get into the turn lanes. If your turn is at the next intersection, you stay in the straight ahead lane until the next intersection. That's just common driving knowledge.

You don't get into the right turn lane at this intersection and then go straight because your turn is the next intersection. DUH!!!!!!!!
Why o why is that so hard to figure out?

[Bryan]

I agree that the rules for roundabouts are confusing. Where else, in the relm or driving rules, can you turn right from the left hand lane except from the inside lane in our roundabouts?

For those in the outside lane who want to continue to stay in the roundabout as they pass an point where they could turn right, if you look at the painted lane lines, the lane dividing line between inside and outside lanes in the roundabout is painted so that the inside lane does not cross any lane divider lines when turning right. Those in the outside lane continuing around the roundabout have to cross a lane dividing line to do so. They are "legally" changing lanes and, if that change causes an accident, it is called an unsafe lane change and they are at fault.

[EdV]

There seems to be a hitch in this.

1. Car One is going north and wants to end up going west.
2. Car Two is going south and wants to continue going south.

If both follow protocol they have to avoid a possible collision when Car 1 is exiting the circle from the "inside" lane to go west and is crossing the "outside" lane where Car Two is staying traveling to continue going south?

No? Help me through this, New Englanders.

And also, the circles seem so small compared those I used when I worked in Philadelphia.

Tony, you are correct. The basic design of the multi-lane roundabout creates numerous situations where two vehicles that have followed roundabout protocol will end up having to cross paths and that's where accidents or near misses and angered exchanges occur. The current design means that you not only have be cautious when entering the roundabout, but when exiting too.

I did a little cutting and pasting to create a roundabout that would eliminate this. In the diagram below, the red markings would be some type of lane barrier such that a vehicle in the right lane could only exit right at the first exit.

Some might argue that this would slow the flow of traffic. But if you think about it, all vehicles that will be making a right turn at the first exit, can do so without even having to merge with oncoming traffic in the roundabout.

http://edv100.home.comcast.net/~edv100/the-villages/roundabout.jpg

[Ooper]

That's a great idea EdVinMass... but with the size of our roundabouts, it won't work if you get a large truck or semi. Their length is going to require the driver to maintain the inner lane while the trailing portion or trailer will be dragging behind with a smaller radius traveling in the outer lane, thus destroying the barriers.

[Russ_Boston]

Tony, you are correct. The basic design of the multi-lane roundabout creates numerous situations where two vehicles that have followed roundabout protocol will end up having to cross paths and that's where accidents or near misses and angered exchanges occur.

You are simply dead wrong Ed. If protocol (let's call it the law) is followed then there are no legal near misses (or hits). It simply can't happen when the rules are followed.

If you think you are correct then please give me a scenario where both drivers do the correct thing but bang into each other. If I'm wrong I'll gladly apologize.

It can, and does, happen in TV all the time but someone didn't understand the protocol.

[EdV]

Russ,

Picture this. Vehicle A is traveling from the north to the south and wants to go east and enters the roundabout from the left lane and gets into the inner lane (which he is allowed to do). Vehicle B is travelling straight through from south to north but enters from the right hand lane into the outer lane (which he is allowed to do) just as vehicle A is going by in the inner lane. Now as they approach the east exit with vehicle B slightly behind vehicle A, A has to cut across B’s lane (who is in A’s blind spot) to make the exit.

[BarbinNH]

They're gonna crash because vehicle B didn't yield. It doesn't matter that vehicle A is in the inside lane. Vehicle B is supposed to yield to all traffic, in both lanes. I think this part, not yielding to both lanes, is what gets people in trouble.

Also, if you look at the link that Russ provided, it says at least twice (and one of those times in red) that you are not supposed to change lanes while in the roundabout. So, logically, you must be able to exit from the inside lane.

[Russ_Boston]

They're gonna crash because vehicle B didn't yield. It doesn't matter that vehicle A is in the inside lane. Vehicle B is supposed to yield to all traffic, in both lanes. I think this part, not yielding to both lanes, is what gets people in trouble.

Also, if you look at the link that Russ provided, it says at least twice (and one of those times in red) that you are not supposed to change lanes while in the roundabout. So, logically, you must be able to exit from the inside lane.

Exactly Barb - I explained this in my answer earlier to Tony. I think this is the biggest confusion that people have that didn't deal with roundabouts in their earlier life. Yield in a rotary is not the same as yield elsewhere. Most of the time yield (realistically not legally) means: wait until the car has gone by you (as in Ed's story).

BUT

You are not supposed to even enter the rotary when other traffic is already IN the rotary. Now granted most people will enter if the other side has just entered. But as I mentioned that wouldn't be an issue since they are far enough apart to begin with even if one does a 3/4 or full turn.

It comes down to this: the rules of the road are made so that when an accident happens - at least ONE party is wrong. Both parties can be wrong but at least one person did something legally wrong that help cause the accident.

[downeaster]

You are simply dead wrong Ed. If protocol (let's call it the law) is followed then there are no legal near misses (or hits). It simply can't happen when the rules are followed.

If you think you are correct then please give me a scenario where both drivers do the correct thing but bang into each other. If I'm wrong I'll gladly apologize.

It can, and does, happen in TV all the time but someone didn't understand the protocol.

You are absolutely right, Russ. People just don't take time to study the rules. If they take some time to do so it should make sense to them.

Here's an example. Car A proceeding south on Buena Vista intending to continue south after the roundabout correctly moves to the left lane. He enters the roundabout remaining in the left lane. Entering at the same time is car B in the right lane however he intends to do a 270 and exit onto El Camino Real. Car A stays in left lane and starts to exit and continue on Buena remaining in the left lane. Meanwhile car B stays in right lane and cuts in front of Car A. CAR B HAS IMPROPERLY CHANGED LANES CUTTING CAR A OFF.
Visualizing traffic flow one can see a smooth flow if people enter and exit properly.

[EdV]

The rules (as shown in the link that Russ provided) do not say that vehicle B is supposed to yield to all traffic. It only says that all vehicles entering the roundabout must yield to vehicles already in the roundabout. In my scenario, both vehicles are already in the roundabout as they approach the eastern exit. And the rules only say that “As you exit the roundabout, be aware of vehicles traveling on the outside of the circulatory roadway that may continue to circulate around the roundabout” but doesn’t state specifically which vehicle has the right of way. That's where problems occur.

Secondly, it is correct in stating that vehicle A is not supposed to change lanes while in the roundabout. So that in itself sets up the problem where vehicle A must cross over vehicle B’s lane in order to make the exit and remain in the left lane as it is supposed to.

I’m not trying to make excuses for smart courteous driving, just trying to say that this problem with multi-lane roundabouts is not quite as simple as some would have you believe.

[Russ_Boston]

And the rules only say that “As you exit the roundabout, be aware of vehicles traveling on the outside of the circulatory roadway that may continue to circulate around the roundabout” but doesn’t state specifically which vehicle has the right of way. That's where problems occur.

I agree with that Ed. I took that statement as meaning 'be careful when exiting'

Specifically it states: "Move up to the entrance line and wait for a gap in
traffic. DO NOT ENTER next to a vehicle in the roundabout, as that vehicle may be exiting at the next exit."

If people followed this you couldn't be close enough to an exiting vehicle to crash.

[EdV]

....Specifically it states: "Move up to the entrance line and wait for a gap in traffic. DO NOT ENTER next to a vehicle in the roundabout, as that vehicle may be exiting at the next exit."

If people followed this you couldn't be close enough to an exiting vehicle to crash.

So as vehicle B approaches the roundabout and it has a clear outer lane, it should wait, because vehicle A in the inner lane might try to exit in front of you further in the roundabout. Give me a break.

As I said before, these multi-lane roundabouts are not as simple as one would have them believe.

My rules for negotiating a multi-lane roundabout are simple:

1. Assume that it's a free for all
2. Your job is to get through it without having an accident

[downeaster]

[QUOTE=EdVinMass;209684]
Secondly, it is correct in stating that vehicle A is not supposed to change lanes while in the roundabout. So that in itself sets up the problem where vehicle A must cross over vehicle B’s lane in order to make the exit and remain in the left lane as it is supposed to.

QUOTE]

Vehicle A, in my example, is not changing lanes. He is remaining in the left lane as he is supposed to. Vehicle B is, in fact, changing lanes and crossing in front of vehicle A. Vehicle B, by virtue of being in the right lane at that point, should be expected to turn onto Buena and stay in that lane.
Take a closer look at the pamphlet furnished by the SO.

[billethkid]

realities as well as hypothetical scenarios to promote understanding. The unfortunate reality is that tomorrow morning as we approach the roundabouts nothing will have changed. There will be those of us who will follow the rules as best we know and we will yield and we will be courteous. However please be careful as there will still be those who are in a hurry....do not care about the rules....who do not yield....and wouldn't know coutesy if it landed in their lap.

They are the daily inconsiderates who will be a hazard in the roudabouts and any other roadway in TV.

UNFORTUNATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btk

[Russ_Boston]

So as vehicle B approaches the roundabout and it has a clear outer lane, it should wait, because vehicle A in the inner lane might try to exit in front of you further in the roundabout. Give me a break.



I don't think you understand but I'll try once more.

As VB approaches the roundabout it MUST wait for a gap in both lanes to enter. As VB approaches it needs to look to the left to make sure that the inner lane driver is indeed going straight and not round (as it has the right to do). If it is going straight then you can enter. If it is coming around then wait for it to pass and re look to the left for the next vehicle.

I think I understand now how accidents happen in this things. But you know what - during May I understood them very well based on what I'm used to up here in MASS. Every town square around here has one of these things and I guess I'm just used to the rules.

Hopefully my last word on the subject. I know I learned something.

[Yoda]

I really think that rotories are better driven than talked anout.

Yoda

[downeaster]

realities as well as hypothetical scenarios to promote understanding. The unfortunate reality is that tomorrow morning as we approach the roundabouts nothing will have changed. There will be those of us who will follow the rules as best we know and we will yield and we will be courteous. However please be careful as there will still be those who are in a hurry....do not care about the rules....who do not yield....and wouldn't know coutesy if it landed in their lap.

They are the daily inconsiderates who will be a hazard in the roudabouts and any other roadway in TV.

UNFORTUNATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btk

You are correct, billie, but there is some hope. I think I have seen an improvement in roundabout navigation since it has received so much publicity. Then there are some that refuse to understand the rules (as evidenced by some of these posts). Then there are those you last mention and they know better but take great pride in thumbing their noses at the rules. They also run red lights, brush off bicyclists, refuse to give pedestrians their right of way, etc.
And I am with Russ, this is my last word on this thread.

[ABC]

Having driven for many years in Europe where roundabouts are prevalent and much quicker to get thru than stoplights i can only add this:

All the comments about a vehicle on the inside lane having to cross the path of one in the outside lane to exit are absolutely incorrect as the main principle of yield to traffic already circling negates this, the only reason a vehicle in the outside lane can end up parallel to one on the inside is if they failed to yield on entry, i.e wait for the vehicle already on the circle to completely pass you before entering the roundabout (regardless of which lane the other vehicle is traveling in). entering a roundabout is like entering any other road system in that vehicles already travelling on that road system have right of way!

The other thing i do notice in TV is how few drivers position their vehicle in the correct lane prior to entering the circle, as long as you know which exit you are going to take it is so simple to get into the correct lane long before reaching the roundabout (right or straight = right hand entry lane, left = left hand entry lane.

Roundabouts are simple, quick and efficient traffic junctions and can safely be navigated by following the 3 basic rules, 1. YIELD on entry 2. Enter from the correct lane position dependent on your planned exit. 3. remember that traffic that is already on the roundabout has right of way over traffic entering the roundabout.


Just as a footnote these rules are available from the Florida Department of Transport:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/trafficoperations/Operations/PDFs/FDOT%20-%202%20Lane%20Roundabout.pdf

[NJblue]

the only reason a vehicle in the outside lane can end up parallel to one on the inside is if they failed to yield on entry, i.e wait for the vehicle already on the circle to completely pass you before entering the roundabout (regardless of which lane the other vehicle is traveling in).

This is not entirely correct since it is possible for two vehicles to enter the circle simultaneously from the same entry point (i.e. one from the left lane and the other from the right lane). This would put them both essentially parallel as they go around the circle. However, if the rules are followed, this should not cause a problem since they would either both be going straight (and hence migrate into the left and right lanes, respectively at the exit that is straight ahead) or the one in the right will be making a right. The problem comes when the person in the right hand (outer) lane wants to continue going around the circle when the person in the left (inner) wants to go straight. This is what creates a potential accident.

The other thing i do notice in TV is how few drivers position their vehicle in the correct lane prior to entering the circle, as long as you know which exit you are going to take it is so simple to get into the correct lane long before reaching the roundabout (right or straight = right hand entry lane, left = left hand entry lane.

While this may actually be a good practice to follow, it is not part of the "rules" of the road where you may be in the left lane if your intent is to go straight.

[ABC]

I hear what you say NJ there can be occasions where 2 vehicles can enter at the same time however as you point out they should be taking different exits, usually when this happens one or other of the drivers is courteous enough to drop back a little.

Also lane discipline is not actually a rule of the road rather than a safe and courteous driving practice that just makes sense if you know where you are going get in the correct lane to take you there.

I still much prefer roundabouts to stoplights!

[chuckinca]

The American view that drivers in Europe are extremely dangerous is based upon the mayhem in the roundabouts.

I'll take stoplights.


.

[EdV]

The problem is that you have a large influx of people to TV in the winter. Many are here for the first time or are renters that simply will not take the time to learn the unique rules for negotiating roundabouts. And many of those may be from states that don’t have them.

So they rely on instinct or what they believe is common sense. When in the right lane, they’ll enter the outer right lane if it is clear of oncoming traffic even if there’s a vehicle approaching in the inner lane. That’s because they’ve been conditioned to do that whenever they enter a highway from an entrance ramp, so it seems natural to them.

Then you have the cautious, ‘senior’ drivers who know that their driving skills are diminishing. So they keep their speed down and always stay in the right lane except at an intersection to make a left hand turn. They fear the left lane and probably feel they’re being courteous by staying out of the way of faster drivers, so you can talk to them until you’re blue in the face, but they’ll hug that right lane no matter what exit they intend to take.

Finally, there’s the lack of universality in roundabout rules. Russ, I hope you didn’t get too comfortable taking the left lane to go straight through the roundabouts in TV, because here in Massachusetts, that’s illegal.

And for those of you who feel you’ve mastered the rules and knack of negotiating roundabouts, I suggest you test those skills with a trip over to Swindon England where they have what’s called “The Magic Roundabout”. Back in the eighties, I had to negotiate this monstrosity every day for a month when I worked there. And because they drive on the left over there, you have to reverse everything you know about roundabouts. Worse still is the fact that the roundabouts in the outer circle move clockwise as they normally do in the UK, but the traffic around the inner roundabout, moves counter-clockwise like it does here in the US. Here’s a picture of it:

http://edv100.home.comcast.net/~edv100/the-villages/magic-roundabout.jpg

[Russ_Boston]

That looks like an alien crop circle:)

In Mass I go straight by staying in the outer lane - I do then when in TV as well (much safer!).

[Carla B]

The rules on navigating roundabouts caution in all instances: "Do not change lanes."
I hope that is not set in stone, as in the case where the entrance gate to a neighborhood is located close to the circle, as are many in TV. In order to be in the correct lane to approach the "resident's" entrance, at some point you have to move from the inside lane of the circle to the outside. Theoretically, if the cars waiting to enter the circle give you enough time, that's good. However, if they're not willing to yield, it gets messy.

[EdV]

That looks like an alien crop circle:)

Oh, it's alien all right. I spent numerous nights at the local pub in Swindon mapping out my strategy for getting through the thing. It was like negotiating a mine field!

[Bubbalarry]

On this year survey at the top of my suggetions was to have TV run a class on roundabouts just like those for the golf system they have.

In addition we live here and when the guests arrive during the year most have no clue on roundabouts.

We need to find a way to inform them on how it's done. To many stay in right lane then pull in front of you to exit left.

I swear one of these days I won't be able to avoid them and will slam into there car. I never hope that happens.

[Bogie Shooter]

A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/eesc/CAE/designvisualization/video/Portfolio/Modern_Roundabouts/mpg_index.htm

...

[chacam]

Would it not solve the problem if everyone just got in the right hand lane and stayed there until they exited?

[Russ_Boston]

Yes it would solve most of the problems through traffic would be cut in half during the busy season. From what I hear that wouldn't be a good thing.

[l2ridehd]

Why can't everyone just use them as intended. It's really not that hard. You only need to remember 4 things. Allow them to work as intended and they will move traffic much better then traffic lights.

1. If you are going 90 degrees, always stay in the right lane.
2. If you are going 180 degrees use either lane.
3. If you are going 270 degrees stay in the left lane until past the 180 degree exit then move to the right lane to exit the circle.
4. The person already in the circle always has the right of way.

[katezbox]

Why can't everyone just use them as intended. It's really not that hard. You only need to remember 4 things. Allow them to work as intended and they will move traffic much better then traffic lights.

1. If you are going 90 degrees, always stay in the right lane.
2. If you are going 180 degrees use either lane.
3. If you are going 270 degrees stay in the left lane until past the 180 degree exit then move to the right lane to exit the circle.
4. The person already in the circle always has the right of way.

:agree::coolsmiley::beer3:

[NJblue]

This is the way I was using them until yesterday (as a result of this thread). Until yesterday, when intending to go straight and if I were in the left lane while approaching the circle I would get into the inner lane of the circle and then exit into the left lane of the road to continue on. This is a prescribed method of dealing with the circles.

However, I have had several previous close calls with people thinking that if they are in the outer part of the circle that they had the right of way to continue around as far as they wanted. Yesterday, after reflecting on the prudence of using the right hand lane and outer part of the circle to continue straight (also a prescribed method), I allowed a car that I was driving parallel with as we approached the circle (with him in the right lane), to get ahead of me and then I merged to the right lane before entering the circle. Sure enough, this person was one of the ones who felt that being in the outer part of the circle gave him the right to continue around as far as he wanted. Had I stayed with my normal (legal) method, there would have been another close call or an actual accident as I tried to go straight and as he tried to continue around the circle. It would have been no satisfaction that his insurance company would have had to pay for my damages.

[billethkid]

hurry, get outta my way fools....it doesn't matter how much communicating is done. They are rude, reckless, impolite, don't care, nasty imports to our environment and nothing said or done changes their idiotic driving.

I guess they are in a hurry to get their geritol and get to sleep on the couch!!!!!!!

More police....more tickets....and I only wish FL had a citizen's arrest law.

So just assume NOBODY will do the right thing and drive defensively.

The right of way is yours to give....NOT TAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTK

[uujudy]

Why can't everyone just use them as intended. It's really not that hard. You only need to remember 4 things. Allow them to work as intended and they will move traffic much better then traffic lights.

1. If you are going 90 degrees, always stay in the right lane.
2. If you are going 180 degrees use either lane.
3. If you are going 270 degrees stay in the left lane until past the 180 degree exit then move to the right lane to exit the circle.
4. The person already in the circle always has the right of way.

But doesn't "move to the right" mean I have to change lanes in the roundabout?

When I go to classes at the college I go north on Buena Vista, planning to exit at the Bonnybrook gate (270 degrees), and I enter the circle from the left lane. Where, exactly do I change lanes so I can exit from the right lane and be lined up with the Bonnybrook resident gate? If I put on my turn signal to change to the outside lane, the southbound folks entering the circle from BV think I'm exiting, and they enter the right lane. If I don't use my turn signal they enter anyway and they think I'm cutting them off when I try to exit from the left/inside lane. Yes, they shouldn't enter the roundabout when I'm in it (nobody should EVER enter the roundabout when I'm in it! ;)), but they all do it.

I admit I have been one of those folks who drive 270 degrees in the right/outside lane. It scares the beejeebus out of me to use this roundabout, and it seems that I'm wrong no matter what I do. All I can say is watch out for the idiot driving the black (yes, black!) car in Florida! LOL

I hope somebody can give me a definitive answer for this dilemma that won't get me killed. Thank you.

[chuckinca]

use your golf cart.

[Ooper]

I know this forum will never end, but, as far as I am concerned, there is only one sure fire way to navigate the roundabouts here in TV that will insure everybody a safe passage. The one rule to follow is: If you are going to exit the roundabout at the very next exit after you enter it, enter and exit using the right and outside lane only. ALL OTHERS, regardless of where you will be exiting, enter using the left hand lane, navigate the roundabout in the inside lane, and exit into the left lane of your intended street. Nobody has to change lanes, nobody cuts in front of anybody, everybody is happy. And as nice as this sounds, it will never happen because everybody needs to follow this simple rule to work and they won't. Remember, this is The Villages where drivers follow their own rules!

[uujudy]

use your golf cart.

Good idea Chuck! Does anybody have a granchild I can borrow to drive it for me?

[Boomer]

.......

It scares the beejeebus out of me to use this roundabout, and it seems that I'm wrong no matter what I do. All I can say is watch out for the idiot driving the black (yes, black!) car in Florida! LOL...........



uuj,

I do not like those roundabouts one single bit. Mr. Boomer loves them. I feel like I am on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. And when we show up there eventually, I will not even be able to issue a warning about watching out for me by announcing the color of my car. At least you have a black car in Florida. Both of ours are white. In Florida a white car will be like camouflage. I guess people will see me though when I am a passenger because I will be the one screaming blood-curdling screams out the window of the white car while Mr. Boomer drives merrily along in the roundabouts.

And when I try to decipher the varying directions, I feel like I am trapped inside some hideous story problem that is straight from hell.

Boomer

[uujudy]

Boomer, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride just about sums it up for me, too! The speed limit in the roundabouts is 20, but I think I'm the only car in TV that actually does the speed limit in them. Some cars go around them on 2 wheels! Really! ;)

[Stub3434]

I have been a resident of TV for 14 years. When we arrived the only roundabout was the one surrounding the OB Hills country club. Shortly after that the north Morse Blvd roundabout came into being. Population of TV at that time was just short of 11,000 so not much traffic. With no experience or information as to how to navigate the roundabouts, I stuck to the outside lane regardless of where I intended to exit. As more roundabouts came into being, many conflicting opinions arose, including those of local newspapers and law enforcement organizations. About a year ago I came across a brochure put out by Sumter County and the Sumter County Sheriff Department. Some time later an identical brochure was published by the State of Florida. The rules set forth by these brochures are the same ones repeated and explained by Russ Boston in this forum. These rules are simple: 1. Don't enter until both approaching lanes are clear. 2. Use the outside lane if you want to take the first right or continue straight through. 3. Use the left lane to go straight through, turn left or make a U-turn. I have been driving roundabouts using these rules for over a year now with no problem. I think rule #1 is the most misunderstood and causes most of the problems on the roundabouts. Another major problem (in my estimation) is that various law enforcement personnel hand out the brochures, but at the same time advise you not to use those methods and that you should only use the outside lane. Another advisory is stay alert and use your turn signals.

[Ooper]

I agree with you Stub3434 but there are some roundabouts that have striping that forces you to change lanes to the outside lane if you enter the left hand lane to say, go straight thru or make a u-turn. This in itself causes a lot of confusion.

[rsandstrom]

It seems quite simple to me. What's the only thing you can do when you exit a roundabout? Yes, it's make a right turn, so stay in the right lane, why get into the left lane if you are going to make a right turn? That's where the problem is. Sure, if you miss your exit, just go around again. The guys who get into that left lane are in a hurry & want to pass the slowpokes in the right lane. Lane changing is the cause of most of the accidents in the roundabouts.

[NJblue]

It seems quite simple to me. What's the only thing you can do when you exit a roundabout? Yes, it's make a right turn, so stay in the right lane, why get into the left lane if you are going to make a right turn? That's where the problem is. Sure, if you miss your exit, just go around again. The guys who get into that left lane are in a hurry & want to pass the slowpokes in the right lane. Lane changing is the cause of most of the accidents in the roundabouts.

No, the cause for most close calls and accidents is people who use the outside lane as you do. When you use the outside lane to make a 270 degree or U turn you will be crossing right into the path of those who are following the established rules. You may not agree with the rules and they may be counter-intuitive, but they are the rules. Those who don't follow the rules will be at fault if an accident occurs.

[Bogie Shooter]

I agree.

[chuckinca]

No, the cause for most close calls and accidents is people who use the outside lane as you do. When you use the outside lane to make a 270 degree or U turn you will be crossing right into the path of those who are following the established rules. You may not agree with the rules and they may be counter-intuitive, but they are the rules. Those who don't follow the rules will be at fault if an accident occurs.


As noted above, the local polizei recommend staying in the outside lane!

Who keeps track of where the users of the outside lane entered the roundabout to know where their required exit is located?


Wouldn't have to deal with "counter-intuitive" traffic laws if there were stop lights like 99% of the major street intersections in America.

.

[imbrennan]

Hi,

I have to say that coming from the UK where we have thousands of these things (and more speed cameras than you can even imagine so be careful if driving over here) the way Russ described it in the very first thread is the way it should be done.

OK, I know we do it the other way round over here as we drive on the other side, but the principle is the same. Good on you Russ - you got it just right!

[Bogie Shooter]

As noted above, the local polizei recommend staying in the outside lane!

Who keeps track of where the users of the outside lane entered the roundabout to know where their required exit is located?
If the enter when the lanes are clear, and only turn right or go straight, it make no difference.

Wouldn't have to deal with "counter-intuitive" traffic laws if there were stop lights like 99% of the major street intersections in America.
And we would continue to waste gas and time, not to mention the red light runners.
.....

[mom2five]

Does anyone else feel like this is hopeless? No matter how many times they are told the correct way some people will always use the right lane. The rest of us will just have to continue to watch out for them.

[BarbinNH]

Does anyone else feel like this is hopeless?

Yes.

[NJblue]

Wouldn't have to deal with "counter-intuitive" traffic laws if there were stop lights like 99% of the major street intersections in America.

.

No! No! A thousand times NO! If traffic lights replaced every roundabout it would make travelling in TV a nightmare. As much as the roundabouts create potential hazards with people not following the rules (by staying in the outer lanes), I would much prefer watching out for their behavior and trying to stay clear than having to deal with the constant stop, wait and go of traffic lights. If I wanted traffic lights I would have stayed in NJ.

[swrinfla]

:agree:

:agree:

:agree:

With mom2five. I've been making it a strict practice to follow Sumter County's guidelines, but am almost always in fear that some other idiot won't pay attention! Stay alert, use signals and follow the "law."

SWR

:beer3:

[Bogie Shooter]

Enough said!

[The Great Fumar]

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO FIX IT...????????.
THEN PLANT FLOWERS IN THE INSIDE LANE !!!!!

RIGHT LANE FUMAR

I know what the telephone book says.............But thats not what the sheriff says..........

[Talk Host]

Just do like the guy I saw at Morse Circle. Enter the round a bout and turn left, head on, into oncoming traffic. :eclipsee_gold_cup:

[chuckinca]

Prolly from the UK.

[Stub3434]

I agree with you Stub3434 but there are some roundabouts that have striping that forces you to change lanes to the outside lane if you enter the left hand lane to say, go straight thru or make a u-turn. This in itself causes a lot of confusion.

That shows just how mixed up even "the powers that be" are. They can't even be consistent in striping the roundabouts. I hadn't noticed that, but with such inconsistencies I would choose to follow the "roundabout rules" in spite of the striping. I believe it is the Chatham gate that has a sign as you are exiting onto Buena Vista that reads "Right lane must turn right". When the County, the Sheriff Department and the State publish the "rules" and then sometimes tell you not to go by those rules, it is a very sad situation. Obiously (from the letters in this forum), some people are going to do things the way they want in spite of the rules. This not only applies to roundabouts but also to stop signs, turn signals, yield signs, etc. Twice I have met drivers going the wrong way on the roundabout. Once was in mild weather so both of us had our windows down. I tried to be helpful by calmly stating "You're going the wrong way". My efforts were met with a single digit salute and the usual accompanying verbal response :cus:

[Russ_Boston]

I agree with you Stub3434 but there are some roundabouts that have striping that forces you to change lanes to the outside lane if you enter the left hand lane to say, go straight thru or make a u-turn. This in itself causes a lot of confusion.

Could you point these out for us. I don't remember where they are.

Thanks.

[Stub3434]

I have been told about the striping situation by other people, but I don't know where they are either. I was in error about the sign at the Chatham gate. It is actually at the Piedmont gate. I have to be going to the Hibiscus Center in a little bit (all the way from the north Morse gate). That will give me lots of practice using the roundabouts in the prescribed manner.:laugh: