Glf Fees Over the Top

[Warren Kiefer]

I had a friend and avid golfer make a statement about the golf fees here in the Villages. Do you agree??
He said that he has noticed empty tee times at the championship courses while the executive courses are usually 100% full. He further stated it was his opinion that the fees being charged on the championship courses have gone over the top in comparison to outside courses and hundreds of golfers are now playing on the outside....

[Fredman]

Your friend is correct

[drcar]

Lol, this has been a ongoing debate. If the price is to high don't play there. The market determines the price.

[golfing eagles]

Lol, this has been a ongoing debate. If the price is to high don't play there. The market determines the price.

Yes. Go play TPC Sawgrass or Bay Hill instead:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[fred53]

Then your friend can't identify quality of the grass/putting greens or layout. I've played from Japan to Scotland. The championships here match up with most of them at half the cost. Add to that really good restaurants and you have many fine courses to play and plenty of drinks afterwards.

Of course if a person isn't very good then the type of course won't matter as much as the cost. There are ridiculously priced courses....ie: Pebble Beach @ $500/18 at the extreme. Many more come in at $90+ and >. Even though I play to about 5 my budget is better spent on other things. I take advantage of the after 4pm in late spring(pay for 9 and play as much as you can)and the summer special at about $7 after 5pm for all you can play. Since I used to live in Maine I still play as many 18 hole rounds here in spring and summer than in Maine for less $$$$.

[kcrazorbackfan]

I had a friend and avid golfer make a statement about the golf fees here in the Villages. Do you agree??
He said that he has noticed empty tee times at the championship courses while the executive courses are usually 100% full. He further stated it was his opinion that the fees being charged on the championship courses have gone over the top in comparison to outside courses and hundreds of golfers are now playing on the outside....

What point are you trying to make? It's not rocket science to figure out the reason for 100% full execs is that they are FREE. Are you wanting GMS to lower the fees of the championship courses to the point where maintenance is cut to the point they start looking like Miona Lakes Golf Course? I only play the execs if I can go out first thing in the mornings so I don't have to observe the carnage that FREE brings. I see very few tee times open (on the championships) every day and those are usually from the 1:00pm to 1:30pm time frame; they usually fill up before the start of the 2nd wave. Stop playing the championships; more tees times for us that do live in The Villages and do play our championship courses.

[Polar Bear]

..I take advantage of the after 4pm in late spring(pay for 9 and play as much as you can)and the summer special at about $7 after 5pm for all you can play...
I'm with you, Fred. That's the majority of my champ play. Can't beat it.

Plus...I think the wave system can sometimes make it look like there are more unused tee times than there actually are.

[rjn5656]

Villages don't compare to TPC or Sawgrass.

[golfing eagles]

Villages don't compare to TPC or Sawgrass.

Neither do the greens fees, which was the point of the thread if I read correctly

[John_W]

Go to villages.net teetime system and look at the open reservations from 12:30 to 1:30, you can play anywhere at any of those times with just a day or two ahead. Look at 1:30 to the end of the day for an open time, probably won't find any, not even 3 days out except for Orange Blossom and maybe Lopez. That's because if you're only playing 9 holes, you can't tee off until 1:30. That tells me that they are willing to pay $27.50, but not $57.00 to play an 18 hole round, that's my reason and many others I know.

I would like a flat rate after 11am, just like in the summer, of maybe $38 for 18 holes. Winter, spring, summer, $38 anytime after 11am. The amount of rounds would more than make up for the lower rate and in the summer they're collecting $15 more than the usual $23. I played 7 courses outside of Baltimore all as nice as ours, including some real hills, and paid anywhere from $32 to $39 year round on weekdays. They even had no revenue from November to March in most years due to cold and snow.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Warren, do you have a reminder on your calendar to make this post on the same day every year? Do you just copy and paste the post from the previous time.

Golf course fees are going to be what the market will bear. As long as people are coming the fees will be what they are. If more people come than the course will handle, fees will go up. If people stop coming, fees will go down.

Usually as fees go down, the quality of the courses will also go down and vice versa. Golf courses have a budget just like everything else and a certain amount of income is needed to make that budget. When revenues go down, cuts to the budget must be made.

Of course the executive courses are full. We are all prepaid. Also, the executive courses are more suitable for the caliber of the majority of the players in The Villages.

[collie1228]

I agree that the cost of championship golf in The Villages is generally higher than other courses in the area. But I've played many local courses and have found The Villages courses to be in equal or better condition, but outside courses give you golf and a cart for less cost than The Villages gets for golf without cart. That being said, I find the convenience of using my own cart to be well worth the difference. I'm very happy with golf here and love the diversity of golf available.

[spring_chicken]

Warren, do you have a reminder on your calendar to make this post on the same day every year? Do you just copy and paste the post from the previous time.

Golf course fees are going to be what the market will bear. As long as people are coming the fees will be what they are. If more people come than the course will handle, fees will go up. If people stop coming, fees will go down.

Usually as fees go down, the quality of the courses will also go down and vice versa. Golf courses have a budget just like everything else and a certain amount of income is needed to make that budget. When revenues go down, cuts to the budget must be made.

Of course the executive courses are full. We are all prepaid. Also, the executive courses are more suitable for the caliber of the majority of the players in The Villages.

LOL! I actually thought someone had revived an old thread! There's also a nearly identical post about restaurants from January:
Restaurant Prices Hit New Highs
Within just the past week I have heard comments from other Villagers commenting about a marked increase price in menu prices. I hadn't noticed it myself because we don't visit the local restaurants very often. But yesterday, after playing gold we decided to stop for a light lunch. With only water to drink, two sandwiches, and including tip, my bill for myself and my wife was
$31.24...Now that I consider my friends comments, this does seem a little expensive. A Cuban sandwich at $13.50 and my hamburger at $10.50. The sandwiches did come with a few chips and slaw.

[daveczo]

Played the Links yesterday. Excellent conditions, $35.00. All 8 of us agreed that it was by far a better value than paying in the $50's for pretty much the same conditions. Won't play championship here again until April.

[Rapscallion St Croix]

OP has taken a condition (greens fees) and attempted to make it the cause for an effect that is fabricated. I just drove Buena Vista from Hwy 44 all the way to Nancy Lopez, and even in these high wind conditions, there were groups on every Championship Course hole I could see from the car. Yesterday, we spent 4 hours riding around in our cart and saw the same. Every hole we saw on Lopez, Palmer, and Glenview had one or two foursomes playing. Hacienda Hills was the only course we saw open holes on.

[rubicon]

I had a friend and avid golfer make a statement about the golf fees here in the Villages. Do you agree??
He said that he has noticed empty tee times at the championship courses while the executive courses are usually 100% full. He further stated it was his opinion that the fees being charged on the championship courses have gone over the top in comparison to outside courses and hundreds of golfers are now playing on the outside....

Warren

I happen to agree with you and the price goes up on a continuum and even more costly since residents provide their own carts. The Villages believes it has a captive group sufficient to make money However, you are wasting ink and your time discussing it here.

First I have lived here for going on 11 years and many golfers I know have been leaving campus to play outside TV timed to when the fee schedule changes every year before and since I arrived ( its called elasticity).

Secondly, its subjective (ie a matter of preference/opinion) when it comes to eateries, golf courses, gas v electric carts,etc....you get the picture

Third, you have two tribes here in TV. Those dedicated to pray at the altar of the Developer in all things and a tribe that will not. and so you will never get an objective consensus

I walked a course with a guy who has lived here some 6 years and unsolicited he said that TV is so overcrowded that its not fun anymore . TV is overcrowded and so certainly TV is right in that they have a captive group large enough to make demands

[John_W]

Warren

I walked a course with a guy who has lived here some 6 years and unsolicited he said that TV is so overcrowded that its not fun anymore . TV is overcrowded and so certainly TV is right in that they have a captive group large enough to make demands


Was that an executive course? I played Palmer Riley Grove nine last Friday in a threesome in 1-1/2 hours, teetime was 1:31pm and we finished at 3:00pm. This is the middle of the highest season and there wasn't anybody in front us and nobody behind us ever within a hole. The only part that wasn't fun was paying $30 to play 9 holes.

This is just the kind of situation I wrote about in my earlier post. There is a slight burst of golfers at 1:30, because that's the earliest a nine hole player can tee off. The rest of the afternoon the course is dead. If they charged $38 for 18 holes after 11am, I'm sure the place would be much busier, and as someone pointed out earlier, they don't even have to provide us a cart. So what really is it costing them for us to be out there?

[rubicon]

Was that an executive course? I played Palmer Riley Grove nine last Friday in a threesome in 1-1/2 hours, teetime was 1:31pm and we finished at 3:00pm. This is the middle of the highest season and there wasn't anybody in front us and nobody behind us ever within a hole. The only part that wasn't fun was paying $30 to play 9 holes.

This is just the kind of situation I wrote about in my earlier post. There is a slight burst of golfers at 1:30, because that's the earliest a nine hole player can tee off. The rest of the afternoon the course is dead. If they charged $38 for 18 holes after 11am, I'm sure the place would be much busier, and as someone pointed out earlier, they don't even have to provide us a cart. So what really is it costing them for us to be out there?

Hi John:

No my comments; albeit probably poorly stated were meant only to say that given the large population here the championship courses can get what they ask for in fees. My neighbors and I have been going off campus every years ever since I moved here because while they can well afford the price, refuse on principal to pay TV's fees. You also have probably come across some residents who simply refuse to play Palmer's because they charge more than other TV championships.

About two years after I moved here we played Black Bear. We ran into a village resident who was so opposed to TV championships fees he became a member of Black Bear and drove their everyday ...different strokes for ....

We all think differently and do not view this as right or wrong it just is

Riley Grove is a great course

personal Best Regards:

[DARFAP]

I agree that the cost of championship golf in The Villages is generally higher than other courses in the area. But I've played many local courses and have found The Villages courses to be in equal or better condition, but outside courses give you golf and a cart for less cost than The Villages gets for golf without cart. That being said, I find the convenience of using my own cart to be well worth the difference. I'm very happy with golf here and love the diversity of golf available.
Amen!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

If I owned a daily fee golf course what I would like is the fewest players possible paying the highest rate possible.

If your course is in Florida where you can operate year round, you can get an average of about 9 hours of tee times. Let's say that we have about 40 days that are rained out. You would have 315 times 9 hours giving you 2,835 hours of tee times per year. Depending on how you schedule tee times, you can get anywhere from 16 to 36 golfers per hour off your tee. That's between 144 and 324 players per day. That's between 45,360 and 102,060 rounds per year.

Lets say for example your maintenance budget for a good quality 18 hole course is $2 million. You can get that $2 million from 45,360 golfers $44 per round or you can get it from 102,060 golfers at $20 per round or any number in between.

Now that doesn't include other expenses such as pro shop and club house help or taxes, mortgage payments, utilities for buildings, depreciation, interest, capital acquisitions etc. Nor does it include any profit. Those per round prices would need to be raised to make a profit and cover additional expenses. There might also be other sources of revenue, but with those come additional expenses. In some cases such as pro shop merchandise the expenses out weigh the revenues.

One problem that is created by doing the maximum number of golfers at the lowest price is that your maintenance costs would go up or the quality of the conditions would go down because of additional wear and tear. The problem with doing the least amount of golfers is that other revenues such a food and beverage, (which I believe are separate entities in TV) range, carts, pro shop sales, etc. will suffer. Also if you have a loyal clientele base and you lose some of them, you'd be losing a greater percentage of your business. It's also more difficult to attract people that are willing to spend more money on golf. More Toyota Corollas are sold than Rolls Royces. The higher you price anything, the smaller your market becomes. But still, the fewer players you have, the less wear and tear on your course so that would be the ideal way to run a course. Most courses are somewhere in between. They get what the market will bear. If your course is full and you'r making your budget and making a profit, you'd probably try increasing the price. If you weren't attracting enough players to pay the bills, you might have to consider lowering the price. It's not rocket science.

I don't know what green fees are here compared to other courses of similar quality in the area, but why should that matter to anyone? Play the courses that you think fit your budget. I play the executives and maybe once a month or so, play a championship at the afternoon rate or go of campus. I don't play Bay Hill because it's out of my price range. I don't complain about the price for the same reason that I don't complain about the price of a Rolls Royce.

[karostay]

Then your friend can't identify quality of the grass/putting greens or layout. I've played from Japan to Scotland. The championships here match up with most of them at half the cost. Add to that really good restaurants and you have many fine courses to play and plenty of drinks afterwards.

Of course if a person isn't very good then the type of course won't matter as much as the cost. There are ridiculously priced courses....ie: Pebble Beach @ $500/18 at the extreme. Many more come in at $90+ and >. Even though I play to about 5 my budget is better spent on other things. I take advantage of the after 4pm in late spring(pay for 9 and play as much as you can)and the summer special at about $7 after 5pm for all you can play. Since I used to live in Maine I still play as many 18 hole rounds here in spring and summer than in Maine for less $$$$.

Summer 95 degrees 100% humidity Bargain

[UpNorth]

It's Winter - I'd rather be playing golf anywhere than shoveling snow. All that being said, I have a hard time paying Winter championship course rates because most of the courses are designed for development and visually boring. The only exceptions are the 3 older courses (Orange Blossom, Hacienda and Tierra) which use the natural layout of the land and trees to a larger extent). I'd rather play an older course outside The Villages, even if the conditions are not as good, but more natural and interesting. The super-wide fairways and lack of a tree line make most of the courses here all look alike to me. After a few rounds on the Championship courses this Winter, I'd just as soon save my money and play the Execs.

[rubicon]

If I owned a daily fee golf course what I would like is the fewest players possible paying the highest rate possible.

If your course is in Florida where you can operate year round, you can get an average of about 9 hours of tee times. Let's say that we have about 40 days that are rained out. You would have 315 times 9 hours giving you 2,835 hours of tee times per year. Depending on how you schedule tee times, you can get anywhere from 16 to 36 golfers per hour off your tee. That's between 144 and 324 players per day. That's between 45,360 and 102,060 rounds per year.

Lets say for example your maintenance budget for a good quality 18 hole course is $2 million. You can get that $2 million from 45,360 golfers $44 per round or you can get it from 102,060 golfers at $20 per round or any number in between.

Now that doesn't include other expenses such as pro shop and club house help or taxes, mortgage payments, utilities for buildings, depreciation, interest, capital acquisitions etc. Nor does it include any profit. Those per round prices would need to be raised to make a profit and cover additional expenses. There might also be other sources of revenue, but with those come additional expenses. In some cases such as pro shop merchandise the expenses out weigh the revenues.

One problem that is created by doing the maximum number of golfers at the lowest price is that your maintenance costs would go up or the quality of the conditions would go down because of additional wear and tear. The problem with doing the least amount of golfers is that other revenues such a food and beverage, (which I believe are separate entities in TV) range, carts, pro shop sales, etc. will suffer. Also if you have a loyal clientele base and you lose some of them, you'd be losing a greater percentage of your business. It's also more difficult to attract people that are willing to spend more money on golf. More Toyota Corollas are sold than Rolls Royces. The higher you price anything, the smaller your market becomes. But still, the fewer players you have, the less wear and tear on your course so that would be the ideal way to run a course. Most courses are somewhere in between. They get what the market will bear. If your course is full and you'r making your budget and making a profit, you'd probably try increasing the price. If you weren't attracting enough players to pay the bills, you might have to consider lowering the price. It's not rocket science.

I don't know what green fees are here compared to other courses of similar quality in the area, but why should that matter to anyone? Play the courses that you think fit your budget. I play the executives and maybe once a month or so, play a championship at the afternoon rate or go of campus. I don't play Bay Hill because it's out of my price range. I don't complain about the price for the same reason that I don't complain about the price of a Rolls Royce.

Doc:

you make an interesting case. However for some residents it boils down to this. TV markets golf both free and affordable for retirees. Yet the executive courses are not exactly free and residents put up with a lot of aggravation. and for those residents going off campus apparently the fees don't fit their retirement budgets

As to TV championships there are several courses in and around the area of equal quality and at lower prices.
I played TV championships two days a week for 6 years with a priority and reached that point where it just was not worth it to me, any longer. It was not the fees but simply playing this much lost it appeal

[golfing eagles]

It's Winter - I'd rather be playing golf anywhere than shoveling snow. All that being said, I have a hard time paying Winter championship course rates because most of the courses are designed for development and visually boring. The only exceptions are the 3 older courses (Orange Blossom, Hacienda and Tierra) which use the natural layout of the land and trees to a larger extent). I'd rather play an older course outside The Villages, even if the conditions are not as good, but more natural and interesting. The super-wide fairways and lack of a tree line make most of the courses here all look alike to me. After a few rounds on the Championship courses this Winter, I'd just as soon save my money and play the Execs.

The same could be said of Shinnecock Hills or St. Andrews. Different courses offer different challenges. In Florida, trees are not the usual issue, it's sand and water with some undulating greens. In the northeast, it's trees and rough. In Texas it's wind. Different courses for different horses.

[stan the man]

It's Winter - I'd rather be playing golf anywhere than shoveling snow. All that being said, I have a hard time paying Winter championship course rates because most of the courses are designed for development and visually boring. The only exceptions are the 3 older courses (Orange Blossom, Hacienda and Tierra) which use the natural layout of the land and trees to a larger extent). I'd rather play an older course outside The Villages, even if the conditions are not as good, but more natural and interesting. The super-wide fairways and lack of a tree line make most of the courses here all look alike to me. After a few rounds on the Championship courses this Winter, I'd just as soon save my money and play the Execs.

My thought exactly

[Challenger]

Summer 95 degrees 100% humidity Bargain

Warren, do you have a reminder on your calendar to make this post on the same day every year? Do you just copy and paste the post from the previous time.

Golf course fees are going to be what the market will bear. As long as people are coming the fees will be what they are. If more people come than the course will handle, fees will go up. If people stop coming, fees will go down.

Usually as fees go down, the quality of the courses will also go down and vice versa. Golf courses have a budget just like everything else and a certain amount of income is needed to make that budget. When revenues go down, cuts to the budget must be made.

Of course the executive courses are full. We are all prepaid. Also, the executive courses are more suitable for the caliber of the majority of the players in The Villages.

Your reasonable analysis is unreasonable to some. What's new

[par]

What burns me is, I'm using my golf cart! I go to some nice courses outside of the reservation and get a cart with GPS etc. for the same price as here or less.

[JoMar]

What burns me is, I'm using my golf cart! I go to some nice courses outside of the reservation and get a cart with GPS etc. for the same price as here or less.

Most folks here have some sort of range finder, from a basic phone app to the lazer devices......why would TV invest in a cart mounted GPS? If playing here burns you up then you made the right move to go to those "nice courses" outside the reservation. If you moved here for golf then you probably made the wrong decision.

[ColdNoMore]

While the prices here for the championship courses ARE higher comparable to off-campus venues, the convenience of jumping in my cart in my driveway and going straight to the pro shop...outweighs the hassle of loading up my car, driving to other courses, swinging by the bag drop-off and changing shoes in the parking lot.

The Villages know that...and takes full advantage of it. :shrug:

[johnboy]

Our Sunday group of 16 - 20 and Wednesday group of 60 play outside every week. Way better courses and much cheaper.

[John_W]

What burns me is, I'm using my golf cart! I go to some nice courses outside of the reservation and get a cart with GPS etc. for the same price as here or less.

I couldn't agree more. Those who say you made a mistake in moving here, should realize there is more to life here than golf. The point is that TV over-inflate their green fees, a full page ad in today's Sun proves that. In the Villages of Fenny which has very little amenties are selling new Patio Villas for $130's, that's a 2009 price, Cottages are in the 180's, that's a 2012 price and masonry designers are in the $220 and $230's which is a reasonable price that is comparable to places such as On Top of the World and Arlington Ridge. If they can do those prices there, they can do that here since amenties cost the developers nothing since they are sold back to the CDC's and the infra-structure is paid by the bonds. Essentially the Village of Fenney is no different than TV except for the prices.

[Bay Kid]

Golfing The Villages makes me dizzy. So many choices, championship, executive. Life is great!

[Dynsol]

While the prices here for the championship courses ARE higher comparable to off-campus venues, the convenience of jumping in my cart in my driveway and going straight to the pro shop...outweighs the hassle of loading up my car, driving to other courses, swinging by the bag drop-off and changing shoes in the parking lot.

The Villages know that...and takes full advantage of it. :shrug:

AMEN....and if some you go offsite it just leaves more room here for me to get in my personal clean cart with my own refreshments and not throw multiple sets into my car, drive miles in my car and opens up more tee times for those of us who moved to the Villages for golf. :BigApplause::BigApplause:

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I couldn't agree more. Those who say you made a mistake in moving here, should realize there is more to life here than golf. The point is that TV over-inflate their green fees, a full page ad in today's Sun proves that. In the Villages of Fenny which has very little amenties are selling new Patio Villas for $130's, that's a 2009 price, Cottages are in the 180's, that's a 2012 price and masonry designers are in the $220 and $230's which is a reasonable price that is comparable to places such as On Top of the World and Arlington Ridge. If they can do those prices there, they can do that here since amenties cost the developers nothing since they are sold back to the CDC's and the infra-structure is paid by the bonds. Essentially the Village of Fenney is no different than TV except for the prices.

I bought a brand new cottage home for $186,000 about 18 months ago. I am not in one of the new villages.

As long as the golf courses are full, why would they lower their prices. As in any business, they get what the market will bear. If there are similar quality golf courses outside for less money, they don't seem to be affecting The Villages championship courses. If they did, I'm positive that we'd see the prices come down.

[kcrazorbackfan]

AMEN....and if some you go offsite it just leaves more room here for me to get in my personal clean cart with my own refreshments and not throw multiple sets into my car, drive miles in my car and opens up more tee times for those of us who moved to the Villages for golf. :BigApplause::BigApplause:

:boom: :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[justjim]

The 1:30 to 2:00 time slots are always filled during the winter months. It might make sense to open up more tee times for those wanting to play only nine holes during the winter months. Just a thought........

[Marathon Man]

My group and I go offsite this time of year. Yes we save a little money and the courses are less crowded. Plus we get a taste of the many fine Central Florida courses.

This is a choice that we make, and it is not a statement about The Villages. We simply believe that adjusting to the situation is better than complaining and hoping for change.

[yabbadu]

The 1:30 to 2:00 time slots are always filled during the winter months. It might make sense to open up more tee times for those wanting to play only nine holes during the winter months. Just a thought........

If you cold make more money selling 18 holes , why would you sell only nine holes for less?

[yabbadu]

My group and I go offsite this time of year. Yes we save a little money and the courses are less crowded. Plus we get a taste of the many fine Central Florida courses.

This is a choice that we make, and it is not a statement about The Villages. We simply believe that adjusting to the situation is better than complaining and hoping for change.

Amen....Finally a smart post!

[Polar Bear]

My group and I go offsite this time of year. Yes we save a little money and the courses are less crowded. Plus we get a taste of the many fine Central Florida courses.

This is a choice that we make, and it is not a statement about The Villages. We simply believe that adjusting to the situation is better than complaining and hoping for change.
Sounds very reasonable...except the last sentence doesn't really convey the spirit of the rest of the post.