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[GatorFan]

http://www.ocala.com/article/20090711/ARTICLES/907119991/1402/NEWS?Title=The-Villages-battles-IRS-over-tax-free-bonds

[Muncle]

The original was in Thursday's NY Times. Once again, "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." There is almost no new information, no real facts. The one advantage of this article, however, is that it lacks Ritchie's anti Morse and anti Villages venom and talks a bit more about how the IRS action affects those outside TV. This one implies how big the legal implication might really be.



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[Bogie Shooter]

No further comment is needed!

[NancyLou]

http://www.ocala.com/article/20090711/ARTICLES/907119991/1402/NEWS?Title=The-Villages-battles-IRS-over-tax-free-bonds

Thanks for information. We are contemplating TV and trying to learn about this problem and wondering if we should just back down till it is settled. We have our visit to TV on July 25th so we are very interested in what is going on. Also new to this TOTV list, love it. :undecided:

Nanc in Ohio

[k2at]

Can someone explain in simple terms what this all means? More specifically, if the IRS wins what r the ramifications for the homeowner (us)? If the Villages win, again what r the ramifications for the homeowner. I need an explanation in simple terms as I must just be a simple individual.

Tnx

[Bogie Shooter]

nancylou & k2at go here to learn more about this issue.
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22385&highlight=bonds
Seems everyone has an opinion.......all different.

[The Shadow]

I am ready to buy a pre-owned home in the Villages. I have waited with anticipation for a couple of months for the IRS issue to be resolve. I have selected 5 houses currently available on the market to look at. Before taking the time to tour the homes I decided to inquire as to the possible schedule for resolving this issue. I first called my salesperson who has been with the Villages for eleven plus years and asked my question. She responded she was only familiar with the bonds sold to build the infrastructure and knew nothing of the tax free/IRS bond issue.

Determination took over, after making a few calls and being transferred several times I found myself talking to Janet Tutt’s office. I told the person on the phone why I was calling and she said I will have Janet call you right back. That was 3 days ago. End of story.

Janet’s silence tells me not to look at homes.

[Muncle]

I am ready to buy a pre-owned home in the Villages. I have waited with anticipation for a couple of months for the IRS issue to be resolve. I have selected 5 houses currently available on the market to look at. Before taking the time to tour the homes I decided to inquire as to the possible schedule for resolving this issue. I first called my salesperson who has been with the Villages for eleven plus years and asked my question. She responded she was only familiar with the bonds sold to build the infrastructure and knew nothing of the tax free/IRS bond issue.

Determination took over, after making a few calls and being transferred several times I found myself talking to Janet Tutt’s office. I told the person on the phone why I was calling and she said I will have Janet call you right back. That was 3 days ago. End of story.

Janet’s silence tells me not to look at homes.

You may find it hard to believe but A.) she might have something more important to do or B.) she might be sick of answering the question.

http://www.districtgov.org/images/whatsnew/recnews200906.pdf

[The Shadow]

You may find it hard to believe but A.) she might have something more important to do or B.) she might be sick of answering the question.
Sick of answering questions for a person who wants to buy a house? One that could close on a house in three days? Da! That is an odd sale technique for a person who works indirectly for the Villages. Or C.) Nobody knows anything.

[Muncle]

Sick of answering questions for a person who wants to buy a house? One that could close on a house in three days? Da! That is an odd sale technique for a person who works indirectly for the Villages. Or C.) Nobody knows anything.


Yes to all your ?'s. She doesn't work in sales. And as for C.) above, if you'd been following this fiasco or even read the articles she's written on the subject, you'd note that this is probably the answer she's sick of giving. But maybe something happened today that changed everything, so we'd better check.

However, were I you I might be tempted to request a new sales rep. For your salesperson to claim ignorance of this issue is inexcusable. Though she likely has no more details than any of us, she should be able to give you background and reaffirm that "C.) Nobody knows anything."




`

[Taj44]

It seem obvious to me that anyone associated with The Villages is going to give us the "vanilla version". They don't want to upset the applecart - they've got homes to sell, so they're going to make the issue seem as harmless as can be. Common sense tells me things could be worse than what The Villages is telling us. It might not be, but none of us can know for sure. My sense is, the IRS is after the Morse family for using a dodgy tax practice and wants to set a precident. I'm hoping that some time in the future, IRS and Morse will come to an agreement, he'll pay a fine, and all will be well. I can't imagine the IRS wants a situation where 70,000 retirees are going to get financially hammered. Certainly not good for their reputation. I think its Morse they are after. . But this is all speculation. We really have to sit and wait this one out. This is a link to a recent article on the subject. http://www.theledger.com/article/20090710/news/907105066&tc=yahoo Here is another link which is an interview from a former employee of The Villages Daily Sun - kind of gives you a perspective on the Morse family: http://andrewblechman.blogspot.com/

[dillywho]

It seem obvious to me that anyone associated with The Villages is going to give us the "vanilla version". They don't want to upset the applecart - they've got homes to sell, so they're going to make the issue seem as harmless as can be. Common sense tells me things could be worse than what The Villages is telling us. It might not be, but none of us can know for sure. My sense is, the IRS is after the Morse family for using a dodgy tax practice and wants to set a precident. I'm hoping that some time in the future, IRS and Morse will come to an agreement, he'll pay a fine, and all will be well. I can't imagine the IRS wants a situation where 70,000 retirees are going to get financially hammered. Certainly not good for their reputation. I think its Morse they are after. . But this is all speculation. We really have to sit and wait this one out. This is a link to a recent article on the subject. http://www.theledger.com/article/20090710/news/907105066&tc=yahoo Here is another link which is an interview from a former employee of The Villages Daily Sun - kind of gives you a perspective on the Morse family: http://andrewblechman.blogspot.com/

It is also just possible that the IRS will have to go away like it did several years ago when they couldn't prove their case then. Just because they are the IRS doesn't necessarily mean that theyhave an automatic win. This has got to be a really complex situation or it would have already been resolved. Why not get back to the business of why we all came here in the first place and let all the legal-schmeleges take care of their business. Most of us have enough to worry about in these "changing" times without borrowing more.

[GatbTester]

Truly, this could go on between the IRS and TV for quite a while. Yet the real question that has to be answered is: does the quasi form of government here with the CDD's constitute a legally recognized government that can issue bonds in the first place. Once that is decided then I predict a fairly quick settlement one way or the other. It just seems a little strange to me that this way of holding out certain thousands of dollars which can be traced back to infrastructer development is not tied directly to the price of each home as opposed to paying off this amount over the years as a bond or at closing, or once every year when the opportunity presents itself. If our CDD's are a recognized taxing authority then the problem fades away, if not then the IRS could very easily prosecute and most likely win.

[Advogado]

The major new development that has been reported in the news stories, but not mentioned in this thread, is the following: "This month, the I.R.S. widened its inquiry to cover more than $400 million in additional bonds issued by special districts associated with the Villages."

[The Shadow]

People that post here refer frequently to news paper articles. If you would like to see for yourself what the IRS said in a letter to The Villages, this is it. It is a PDF file 34 pages long.
http://www.ccfj.net/CDDVillagesIRSletter.pdf

[The Shadow]

The major new development that has been reported in the news stories, but not mentioned in this thread, is the following: "This month, the I.R.S. widened its inquiry to cover more than $400 million in additional bonds issued by special districts associated with the Villages."
Do you have a web address for this information?

[villages07]

From all that I have read, the issue is with the recreational bonds issued by the two central districts to pay for the amenity facilities purchased from the developer. The "new development", i.e. that IRS is looking at another $400M in bonds issued by the special districts (not to be confused with the numbered residential CDDs) would then appear to be more of the same recreational bonds.

We have to remind ourselves that the IRS issue is with the recreational amenity bonds and NOT the infrastructure bond associated with the purchase/construction of a home.

It is certainly something to monitor for all of us already here and those researching a purchase in the Villages. Knowing what I know now, it would not stop me from buying a home here. Perhaps some good will come of it.... i.e. the negotiated sales price of amenities to the central districts will be based on more logical valuations rather than future revenue streams and will indeed be "arms length" transactions. Whether these bonds should be tax free munis or not is in the hands of the experts. I'm sure a case can be made either way. And, it's not just The Villages that has been doing this...many other CDD communities in Florida.

Stay tuned....

[NancyLou]

nancylou & k2at go here to learn more about this issue.
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22385&highlight=bonds
Seems everyone has an opinion.......all different.

Thanks, already checked that out. Guess then that is all to be told for now.

Nanc

[Bogie Shooter]

This is a waste of bandwidth. I found three other threads on this topic; one had 57 posts and 3328 views, another 32 & 2581, and another 90 7241.
There is nothing new to add....only speculation and opinion, what is being accomplished?

[Advogado]

Do you have a web address for this information?

Shadow:

Here is the NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/us/10florida.html

Copies of the actual IRS notices can be obtained at the VCCDD Office.

[Advogado]

This is a waste of bandwidth. I found three other threads on this topic; one had 57 posts and 3328 views, another 32 & 2581, and another 90 7241.
There is nothing new to add....only speculation and opinion, what is being accomplished?

I don't think that keeping abreast of, and discussing, current events that could have a profound effect on one's future is a waste of either bandwidth or time.

[iaudit]

This is a waste of bandwidth. I found three other threads on this topic; one had 57 posts and 3328 views, another 32 & 2581, and another 90 7241.
There is nothing new to add....only speculation and opinion, what is being accomplished?

Anyone who is tired of hearing about this subject can do what I do when I see another political thread, ignore it.

[Muncle]

I don't think that keeping abreast of, and discussing, current events that could have a profound effect on one's future is a waste of either bandwidth or time.

That may be true if each thread didn't have to go back to square one to bring people up to date and to correct misconceptions. 07 does a good and patient job of the latter, but some get frustrated. How many times in here does the infrastructure bond have to be explained? How many times does it have to be repeated that much to the chagrin of Ritchie & Co., the Morse family is not a participant in this IRS action and even in an absolutely worst case would owe absolutely nothing. Oh, in that situation, the developer might volunteer some type of remuneration to assist the special districts,. but about the only way he could be forced into such action would be for the POA principals or a similar group to file another "get rich quick" class action nuisance suit against him.

Y'know, this action is kinda like that disgusting Bleicham book or the "medical" report of STDs in TV. The initial report or book comes out and people refute the inaccuracies and near slander. Then later, maybe months later, a NY paper or a cable TV network has a slow day and picks up the story. They always go with the originals, never the follow-ups. And since the NY times/Post/Daily News/whatever has printed it, it's picked up by the Muncie, Daily Wipe and the Gloucester Birdcage Liner. And of course it's reported back here as new, breaking news. barf

07, Kate, Boomer, Barefoot and others of you who try to explain this and other constantly recurring situation much more patiently than I --- can I suggest that you create a WP file that reiterates what you've written (something the CDD should definitely do in a FAQ column) and whenever one of these rears its ugly head, just dump the file. One of you might add that the only way to insure residents' protection and guarantee the freedoms of ourselves and our progeny is for everyone to join the POA and support them in all their endeavors. That might save one or two posts.

And if you do not agree with me, then you sir are worse than Al Gore.




`

[golf2140]

We must all remember that this issue is the opinion of one person who works for the IRS. They need to justify their position.

[The Shadow]

Putting the problem in a basic form, the way I see it.

The VCCDD sold tax free bonds to pay off the developer. The developer is now out of the picture.

The IRS said this was the wrong thing to do. The IRS wants money.

The VCCDD's only income is the home owner. OR Can the VCCDD sell taxable bonds and buy back the tax free bonds?

Ignoring the IRS is not an option.

I do not look at this as a political issue, it is potentially about our money and I for one do not plan on going back to work.

[chuckinca]

That may be true if each thread didn't have to go back to square one to bring people up to date and to correct misconceptions. 07 does a good and patient job of the latter, but some get frustrated. How many times in here does the infrastructure bond have to be explained? How many times does it have to be repeated that much to the chagrin of Ritchie & Co., the Morse family is not a participant in this IRS action and even in an absolutely worst case would owe absolutely nothing. Oh, in that situation, the developer might volunteer some type of remuneration to assist the special districts,. but about the only way he could be forced into such action would be for the POA principals or a similar group to file another "get rich quick" class action nuisance suit against him.

Y'know, this action is kinda like that disgusting Bleicham book or the "medical" report of STDs in TV. The initial report or book comes out and people refute the inaccuracies and near slander. Then later, maybe months later, a NY paper or a cable TV network has a slow day and picks up the story. They always go with the originals, never the follow-ups. And since the NY times/Post/Daily News/whatever has printed it, it's picked up by the Muncie, Daily Wipe and the Gloucester Birdcage Liner. And of course it's reported back here as new, breaking news. barf

07, Kate, Boomer, Barefoot and others of you who try to explain this and other constantly recurring situation much more patiently than I --- can I suggest that you create a WP file that reiterates what you've written (something the CDD should definitely do in a FAQ column) and whenever one of these rears its ugly head, just dump the file. One of you might add that the only way to insure residents' protection and guarantee the freedoms of ourselves and our progeny is for everyone to join the POA and support them in all their endeavors. That might save one or two posts.

And if you do not agree with me, then you sir are worse than Al Gore.




`


If you are tired of re-reading this issue, don't.


.

[zcaveman]

This is a waste of bandwidth. I found three other threads on this topic; one had 57 posts and 3328 views, another 32 & 2581, and another 90 7241.
There is nothing new to add....only speculation and opinion, what is being accomplished?

If you check around, many of the new posts have already been posted somewhere - lanais, landscape, garages, carts, etc. I think a new post by new members is better than searching the hard to search archives. It also lets the new members get up to speed on the subjects and express their views.

Besides bandwidth is cheap now a days.

As someone stated, it you are tired of the thread, you have an option of not reading it.

I always like the new slants on this one.

[The Shadow]

If you check around, many of the new posts have already been posted somewhere - lanais, landscape, garages, carts, etc. I think a new post by new members is better than searching the hard to search archives. It also lets the new members get up to speed on the subjects and express their views.

Besides bandwidth is cheap now a days.

As someone stated, it you are tired of the thread, you have an option of not reading it.

I always like the new slants on this one.
Zcaveman,

Thanks for that, I was starting to think I took a wrong turn and I was not in Florida’s Friendliest Hometown.:beer3:

I hope more information comes out at the July 21 meeting of the POA.

[Bogie Shooter]

That may be true if each thread didn't have to go back to square one to bring people up to date and to correct misconceptions. 07 does a good and patient job of the latter, but some get frustrated. How many times in here does the infrastructure bond have to be explained? How many times does it have to be repeated that much to the chagrin of Ritchie & Co., the Morse family is not a participant in this IRS action and even in an absolutely worst case would owe absolutely nothing. Oh, in that situation, the developer might volunteer some type of remuneration to assist the special districts,. but about the only way he could be forced into such action would be for the POA principals or a similar group to file another "get rich quick" class action nuisance suit against him.

Y'know, this action is kinda like that disgusting Bleicham book or the "medical" report of STDs in TV. The initial report or book comes out and people refute the inaccuracies and near slander. Then later, maybe months later, a NY paper or a cable TV network has a slow day and picks up the story. They always go with the originals, never the follow-ups. And since the NY times/Post/Daily News/whatever has printed it, it's picked up by the Muncie, Daily Wipe and the Gloucester Birdcage Liner. And of course it's reported back here as new, breaking news. barf

07, Kate, Boomer, Barefoot and others of you who try to explain this and other constantly recurring situation much more patiently than I --- can I suggest that you create a WP file that reiterates what you've written (something the CDD should definitely do in a FAQ column) and whenever one of these rears its ugly head, just dump the file. One of you might add that the only way to insure residents' protection and guarantee the freedoms of ourselves and our progeny is for everyone to join the POA and support them in all their endeavors. That might save one or two posts.

And if you do not agree with me, then you sir are worse than Al Gore.




`
Once again you speak with great wisdom.
Sometimes I think people are too lazy to search and read previous posts.....its so easy to just ask the same question again.
Happy Reading to all!

[Boomer]

Once again you speak with great wisdom.
Sometimes I think people are too lazy to search and read previous posts.....its so easy to just ask the same question again.
Happy Reading to all!



Do not rush to judgment on the lazy thing. It has nothing to do with laziness. I always thought I knew my way around a Boolean search until I met up with the search thing on here. It is like some circle of the Inferno. I do not get it. And to make matters worse, it is capricious as all get out. Sometimes it gives me what I want. But mostly it does not. And besides all that, the archives here are big and deep.

And everybody has not been around here forever. New people can use a little help navigating.

When somebody asks for help, if you personally are not inclined to want to help, that's your business. But there is no point in trying to make somebody uncomfortable about asking questions. Is there?

Boomer

[KathieI]

Well said, Boomer. I agree!!