EZGO Elite Lithium Battery

[MorTech]

EZGO just came out with the Elite golf cart line.
Lithium Ion battery!
Villages Golf Cars should stock them soon.

[permanentvacation]

Here is an article about these Elite Batteries:

E-Z-GO Launches Innovative ELiTE Series Vehicles to Industry - Golf Course Industry (http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/ezgo-elite-series/)

[Kahuna32162]

I wondered how long it would take TV to adopt this technology. I've had Lithium Ion batteries in my cart for over a year now.

[affald]

What is the real life range and cost of installation of these batteries?

[MorTech]

Don't know capacity, range, price yet but Lithium battery tech prices are now about $300 per kwh.
Guessing AC motor at 125w per mile so 8 miles per kw...$1500 for 40 miles. Figure lead-acid pack at $100 per kwh.
Guessing the EZGO Elite lithium series will carry about a $1000 premium over lead-acid carts
We will know info soon. I'm sure TV Golf Cars will carry them.

[rubicon]

Samsung is my favorite brand. Yet their lithium batteries for airplanes and for cell phones ran into difficulty.

The ad speaks to rounds of golf but that measure did not translate well here in TV where many residents use their carts in place of a car.

a round of golf is comprised of driving to a tee, stopping tee off etc
vis a vis driving continually for x number of miles from one destination to another.

the ad makes claim of 5 year life on batteries but every battery mfg makes the same claims but life expectancy seems to vary greatly from such claims.

then we have a question of performance power after a period of time 1 yr,2,3, etc.

finally what is the replacement cost?

[MorTech]

5 year, unlimited amp-hour - so figure the battery pack should last at least 10 years.
10 years from now, lithium replacement pack should be under $100 per kwh.

Lithium tech has a more linear charge profile. You don't have to throttle back for the last 20% of charge like on lead-acid. Lithium batteries have difficulty when you try to stuff a lot of current into them in a short period of time...Just like all battery types. I doubt EZGO will offer a "quick charge" type charger so the lithium batteries will hold up/not explode just fine.

[rubicon]

5 year, unlimited amp-hour - so figure the battery pack should last at least 10 years.
10 years from now, lithium replacement pack should be under $100 per kwh.

Lithium tech has a more linear charge profile. You don't have to throttle back for the last 20% of charge like on lead-acid. Lithium batteries have difficulty when you try to stuff a lot of current into them in a short period of time...Just like all battery types. I doubt EZGO will offer a "quick charge" type charger so the lithium batteries will hold up/not explode just fine.

sounds promising

[MorTech]

Lithium battery charge time: guess is >8 miles per hour. Perhaps 10.
The lithium battery pack will be at least 300 lbs. lighter than the lead-acid pack!
No monthly battery watering!

I don't see a downside...yet.

[Kahuna32162]

The only issue I've had so far is that each battery has it's own charger. I have had 1 go bad and it and the battery were replaced under warrenty. I was told 10 year replacement on the batteries and 3500 charging cycles. On average use, I charge my batteries overnite about once every 2 weeks.

[Kahuna32162]

Samsung is my favorite brand. Yet their lithium batteries for airplanes and for cell phones ran into difficulty.

The ad speaks to rounds of golf but that measure did not translate well here in TV where many residents use their carts in place of a car.

a round of golf is comprised of driving to a tee, stopping tee off etc
vis a vis driving continually for x number of miles from one destination to another.

the ad makes claim of 5 year life on batteries but every battery mfg makes the same claims but life expectancy seems to vary greatly from such claims.



then we have a question of performance power after a period of time 1 yr,2,3, etc.

finally what is the replacement cost?


My range is approx 120 miles per charge and I only have to plug it in once every 2 weeks.

[biker1]

I suspect more like 200w per mile. YMMV.

Don't know capacity, range, price yet but Lithium battery tech prices are now about $300 per kwh.
Guessing AC motor at 125w per mile so 8 miles per kw...$1500 for 40 miles. Figure lead-acid pack at $100 per kwh.
Guessing the EZGO Elite lithium series will carry about a $1000 premium over lead-acid carts
We will know info soon. I'm sure TV Golf Cars will carry them.

[PaulDenise]

Mortech and Biker1-- Excellent data based analysis. Rare here in the golf cart form. I am more prone to agree with Biker1 about the watts per mile. But...I think the big thing is that Lithium batteries can be run down to about 0% without killing them. Lead Acid begins to die extra fast when you run them down below 50%. So, the Lithium will give you 'more miles' perhaps for the money, without being killed.

You run Lead Acid batteries down to 0% a few times and you have to buy new batteries. They just never recover from the 'injury'. That is the point that is usually missed here in this forum.

[MorTech]

The EZGO Elite has a single lithium battery array...Not 6 separate battery packs wired in series.
Would really like to know max charge cycles on the EZGO pack! I suspect it is at least 3500 before you start losing significant range.
EZGO Elite uses a Delta-Q QuiQ charger, I just discovered.

My AC motor cart is about 130w per mile and it has "neck-snapping" acceleration :)
It goes 0-20 faster than a Tesla 0-60 in Ludicrous Mode :)
The Chevrolet Bolt is about 225 watts per mile!

120 miles per charge! What is the kwh rating of your lithium battery pack?
Must be a very efficent motor. Is it an AC motor?

Another benefit of Lithium is that you don't have to keep them fully charged to get maximum life from them. Lead-acid technology needs to be kept fully charged or they start eating themselves. Yes, lead-acid eats itself faster at below 50% charge.

You can not run lithium down to 0% (or charge to 100%) without damaging them. The charger Charge Profile and motor controller will take this into account. Lithium has higher internal resistance (less self discharge) and you don't have to run a top-up charge every 2 weeks of non-use like with lead-acid...Nor do you run a Desulfator/Equalize charge with Lithium.

[autumnspring]

The EZGO Elite has a single lithium battery array...Not 6 separate battery packs wired in series.
Would really like to know max charge cycles on the EZGO pack! I suspect it is at least 3500 before you start losing significant range.
EZGO Elite uses a Delta-Q QuiQ charger, I just discovered.

My AC motor cart is about 130w per mile and it has "neck-snapping" acceleration :)
It goes 0-20 faster than a Tesla in Ludicrous Mode :)
The Chevrolet Bolt is about 225 watts per mile!

120 miles per charge! What is the kwh rating of your lithium battery pack?
Must be a very efficent motor. Is it an AC motor?

Another benefit of Lithium is that you don't have to keep them fully charged to get maximum life from them. Lead-acid technology needs to be kept fully charged or they start eating themselves. Yes, lead-acid eats itself faster at below 50% charge.

You can not run lithium down to 0% (or charge to 100%) without damaging them. The charger Charge Profile and motor controller will take this into account. Lithium has higher internal resistance so you don't have to run a top-up charge every 2 weeks of non-use like with lead-acid...Nor do you run a Desulfator/Equalize charge with Lithium.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Re: six separate battery packs in lead acid
Most of the current golf carts run on 48 volts. Each lead acid cell is 2 volts so to get 48 volts you need 24 cells.
If, you are using 12v batteries each will be 6 cells-thus you will see 6 fill caps. To get 48 volts out of 12v batteries it will be four batteries.
Some carts use 8 volt cells-4 fill caps and so you will have 6 batteries. Other carts use 6 volt cells-3 fill caps so you will have eight of them. The advantage of the 6v or 8v cells is that they will have more storage capacity then the 12v cells.

Re: Desulfation
When, a lead acid battery is stored uncharged you get lead sulfate on the plates-it is not reversible so you loose usable capacity.

Re: Lithium ION
You will get many more recharge cycles if you do not run them all the way down. I've not seen the ones they sell for golf carts. They might well be a single block but like all the others mentioned above it is many separate cells wired together. Lithium ION cells are 1.5 volts so for 48 v it is 32 cells

Re: battery warranty
Watch the fine print. If, you have a car battery with a five year warranty-for example. Should your battery fail, you will fiond the warranty is prorated. Translation you used if for say 3 years so you have gotten 3/5 of the life. You then will find they will want to sell you the same or similar battery by the same manufacturer at 2/5 of the LIST PRICE. No one pays list price for a car battery so you will discover after 3 years use your 5 year battery warranty has little or no value.

[MorTech]

Lithium cells are 3.6v. I am quite sure EZGO lithium pack is just one battery array instead of separate blocks wired in series like Smart Battery. I am guessing EZGO is using Samsung 21700 lithium cells.

Sulfur always falls out onto the plates during lead-acid battery discharge. My charger automatically does an Equalize charge about once a month. I know when it has occurred because there will be a faint smell of sulfur in the garage. During Equalize, the charger voltage is at 62V (48V cart) and you can hear the batteries bubbling.

[MorTech]

My range is approx 120 miles per charge and I only have to plug it in once every 2 weeks.

Assuming you have a highly efficient system of 100w per mile, that would mean you have a 12kwh lithium pack to get that 120 miles.

Did you pay $1,000 per kwh ($12,000) for that?
Who is the manufacturer?
Why don't you just charge it full after every use and have the full 120 mile range every time you leave the house?

FYI - You can get a low mileage 2015 Nissan Leaf for about $9,000...I has 24 kwh lithium-ion.

Current market forecast has lithium cells at $100 per kw within 3 years. That means that 120 mile range with lithium pack will cost you $1200. Electricity cost for that 120 miles at $0.12 per kwh so say $1.50...Compare to gasoline at $7.50. Zero maintenance cost on the electric cart besides tire changes for 10 years...Compare to gasoline cart of about $80 per year (oil, filters, belt, plug, battery). No smell, No noise. With the expansion of TV south of 44, I would want an 80 mile range.

I am guessing the EZGO Elite is about 110w-115w per mile and about 300 lbs lighter compared to their lead-acid cart.

[biker1]

Contemporary gas carts get 50+ mpg so the gas cost is more like $5.25 per 120 miles, not $7.50. Also, my annual maintenance cost is more like $40 per year, not $80 per year. I do my own maintenance - it is trivial if you own a socket set. Regardless, the annual operating costs are trivial compared to the purchase price. I use the figure of approximately 5 cents per mile.

Current market forecasts for lithium-ion batteries are more like $200+ per kWh by 2020, not $100 per kWh. I drive my gas cart 4000 miles per year for $160 in gas. For the price of a lithium-ion battery pack I can drive my gas cart for 15 years. In 15 years, I will probably buy a golf cart with a lithium-ion battery pack (or whatever is the cost effective battery technology), when the cost is substantially lower than it is now. Early adopters usually pay a substantial price penalty.

My cart has no smell and is very quiet as it has a substantial amount of sound deadening material. It also has a 250 mile range. Different strokes ...

Assuming you have a highly efficient system of 100w per mile, that would mean you have a 12kwh lithium pack to get that 120 miles.

Did you pay $1,000 per kwh ($12,000) for that?
Who is the manufacturer?
Why don't you just charge it full after every use and have the full 120 mile range every time you leave the house?

FYI - You can get a low mileage 2015 Nissan Leaf for about $9,000...I has 24 kwh lithium-ion.

Current market forecast has lithium cells at $100 per kw within 3 years. That means that 120 mile range with lithium pack will cost you $1200. Electricity cost for that 120 miles at $0.12 per kwh so say $1.50...Compare to gasoline at $7.50. Zero maintenance cost on the electric cart besides tire changes for 10 years...Compare to gasoline cart of about $80 per year (oil, filters, belt, plug, battery). No smell, No noise. With the expansion of TV south of 44, I would want an 80 mile range.

I am guessing the EZGO Elite is about 110w-115w per mile and about 300 lbs lighter compared to their lead-acid cart.

[MorTech]

A 21700 cell is right at $10 which is $222 per kwh.
LG is supplying GM (Bolt/Volt) today at $150 per kwh.

Which cart is getting 50 mpg? My neighbors 2015 Yamaha EFI gets about 35 mpg.
The oil needs changing every 1000 miles at $20. The starter battery is $100 for 5 years. Right there is $100 per year.

OK then, $0.03 difference gas/electricity x 4000 miles is $120 per year so figure $120 for maintenance and $120 gasoline = $240 per year less for electric cart. Even if you need to replace the lithium pack at 5 years ($240x5=$1200), it is break even. The only downside with electric is range per charge and charge time (250 miles with a 4 minute "charge" time for gasoline can't be beat :)) but there is nothing to break or wear on an AC electric cart drive train...It is mostly solid state except for one relay and one motor shaft end bearing. Also, whenever I leave the house, I know I have 60 miles of range. I can't even remember the last time I looked at my fuel gauge. I put about 5500 miles per year on mine but hardly ever go more than 20 miles between charges.

We will see soon what the EZGO Elite can do...And at what cost.

[rubicon]

I purchased new a 2015 EFI. My dealer recommended changing the oil once the cart mileage reached 1,000 miles. I did. My dealer stated maintenance thereafter is every 4500 miles. My 2015 cart has 1600 miles on it. so I will call my dealer in 3 years.

the issue with batteries has always been limited power storage and the continually charging. I was pleased to read one post with the extraordinary claim that lithium batteries needed to be charged only once every two weeks. My gas cart gets refilled once the gauge reaches 1/2.

engineers are working out the problems associated with storage of power. It is exciting, productive and hopefully profitable for sellers and buyers with advances in technology.

Meantime my EFI solves my immediate problem of distance anxiety and easy storing. I look forward to the advances with electric cars and carts

[biker1]

I can't speak for your neighbor but my Yamaha EFI gets 50-52 mpg, consistently. I do 3 oil changes a year at $5 per oil change or $15 per year. A new battery is about $80 and, yes, they do last about 5 years (based on friends with older carts). The engine should last about 4000 hours or 60,000+ miles. As I already indicated, the annual operating costs are very low (and I tend to be a bit AR with regard to maintenance). I only point these out because the numbers you posted are not representative of what I experience. I would put the difference in operating costs between gas and electric at a total of $120 per year for 4000 miles per year, not $240 per year. This excludes battery replacements cost for the electric cart - just fuel (gas vs. electricity) and maintenance. At least for me anyway as I do my own maintenance.

GTM Research has the 2020 estimate for Lithium-ion at $217 per kWh. If you search long enough I suppose you can find some unqualified statistic that indicated something different. What does a 6 kWh lithium-ion battery pack for an existing golf cart cost today, installed, with electronics, and charger? $2500? It would take 20 years to break even. If you are buying a new EZGO cart with Lithium-ion batteries, what is the incremental cost over a new gas cart? If it is $1000 then it looks attractive. If it is $3000 then not so much. The industry quoted price per kWh for raw lithium-ion parts is not what you will pay in an end product like a golf cart.

As I already stated, different strokes ... However, I would guess that 10 years from now only electric carts will be manufactured.

A 21700 cell is right at $10 which is $222 per kwh.
LG is supplying GM (Bolt/Volt) today at $150 per kwh.

Which cart is getting 50 mpg? My neighbors 2015 Yamaha EFI gets about 35 mpg.
The oil needs changing every 1000 miles at $20. The starter battery is $100 for 5 years. Right there is $100 per year.

OK then, $0.03 difference gas/electricity x 4000 miles is $120 per year so figure $120 for maintenance and $120 gasoline = $240 per year less for electric cart. Even if you need to replace the lithium pack at 5 years ($240x5=$1200), it is break even. The only downside with electric is range per charge and charge time (250 miles with a 4 minute "charge" time for gasoline can't be beat :)) but there is nothing to break or wear on an AC electric cart drive train...It is mostly solid state except for one relay and one motor shaft end bearing. Also, whenever I leave the house, I know I have 60 miles of range. I can't even remember the last time I looked at my fuel gauge.

We will see soon what the EZGO Elite can do...And at what cost.

[Paulz]

Back on topic, Lithium batteries in golf carts. I have an EZGO RXV 2014 electric. I upgraded to Trogan Rangers last November adding 72lbs (12 x 6) to the cart. The ride improved. I wonder if they are going to tune the suspension to the reduced weight?

[MorTech]

I purchased new a 2015 EFI. My dealer recommended changing the oil once the cart mileage reached 1,000 miles. I did. My dealer stated maintenance thereafter is every 4500 miles. My 2015 cart has 1600 miles on it. so I will call my dealer in 3 years.

What does your owners manual state for oil change interval?
Who's your dealer? I think your dealer wants to sell you a new cart in 3 years :)
(use a HDEO 10w30 engine oil - 1000 miles or yearly)

[biker1]

I agree completely. The owner's manual list several intervals for oil changes, one of which is 1250 miles. I change about every 75 hours and use Mobil 1 10w-30. An oil change takes about 10-15 minutes if you do it yourself, and most of that is drinking coffee while the oil drains.

What does your owners manual state for oil change interval?
Who's your dealer? I think your dealer wants to sell you a new cart in 3 years :)
(use a HDEO 10w30 engine oil - 1000 miles or yearly)

[MorTech]

I always used Rotella T5 10w30. I noticed a lot of 2-3 year old gas cart engines rattle like they are ready to explode. Are they all told to change oil at 4500 by the dealers?

[Arctic Fox]

I would guess that 10 years from now only electric carts will be manufactured.

and maybe hydrogen fuel cell rather than battery

[biker1]

The big issue with hydrogen fuel cells is a distribution network for the hydrogen.

and maybe hydrogen fuel cell rather than battery

[biker1]

Carts and Clubs essentially recommends once per year servicing, at which point they will change the oil, air filter, and spark plug. I think the oil should be changed more frequently and the air filter and spark plug can go much longer.

I always used Rotella T5 10w30. I noticed a lot of 2-3 year old gas cart engines rattle like they are ready to explode. Are they all told to change oil at 4500 by the dealers?

[MorTech]

Owners manual states 1200 miles or yearly oil changes for the 2015 Yamaha EFI.
That's about 5 times a year for my neighbor...I wonder if he knows that :)

Golf cart gas engines take quite a beating in terms of stop/start shock loads on the drive train. It is remarkable that they hold up as long as they do. Yeah, small oil capacity + no oil filter = Changed the oil frequently.

[MorTech]

Back on topic, Lithium batteries in golf carts. I have an EZGO RXV 2014 electric. I upgraded to Trogan Rangers last November adding 72lbs (12 x 6) to the cart. The ride improved. I wonder if they are going to tune the suspension to the reduced weight?

Two things I don't like about EZGO is the suspension and the slow ramp-up of acceleration. The EZGO have leaf springs, and like a pickup truck, seams to ride better when loaded down. Taking all that weight out might improve the ride...We will see. I assume you mean 8v x 6.

[MorTech]

In 10 years TV will expand somewhere around Lakeland so hydrogen fuel cell might be of some value :)
Nothing like cracking water in the garage for hydrogen...I'm sure the neighbors and SECO won't mind.

You just can't beat a hydrocarbon and it's amazing energy density. If they weren't produced naturally on earth then we would have to invent them. Cracking water for hydrogen would require nuclear power to make it feasible...Same for creating hydrocarbons.

[twoplanekid]

As seen at the Villages golf cart dealership in Brownwood this past weekend, some mean machines but probably not electric and may not fit in the tunnels.

[MorTech]

Looks like the EZGO Elite RXV comes in 3 battery sizes - 60, 90, 120 ah.

Pricey.

RXV Elite Lithium 2.0 (60 amp-hour) (http://electrickmotorsports.com/i-23171977-rxv-elite-lithium-2-0-60-amp-hour.html)

[Blackie]

Looks like the EZGO Elite RXV comes in 3 battery sizes - 60, 90, 120 ah.

Pricey.

RXV Elite Lithium 2.0 (60 amp-hour) (http://electrickmotorsports.com/i-23171977-rxv-elite-lithium-2-0-60-amp-hour.html)


So what do those 3 sizes signify as far as range is concerned?

[biker1]

Thanks for posting the webpage.

It looks like the price increase over the same cart with a gas engine is as follows:

30ah battery: an extra $2600
60ah battery: an extra $3750
90ah battery: an extra $4650

Pricey indeed.




Looks like the EZGO Elite RXV comes in 3 battery sizes - 60, 90, 120 ah.

Pricey.

RXV Elite Lithium 2.0 (60 amp-hour) (http://electrickmotorsports.com/i-23171977-rxv-elite-lithium-2-0-60-amp-hour.html)

[Arctic Fox]

Cracking water for hydrogen would require nuclear power to make it feasible.

Or solar - I suspect that, as their petroleum reserves run down, many Middle Eastern states will establish large solar power arrays and make hydrogen to be exported to the rest of the World much as LNG is today.

[Paulz]

I meant 12lbs more each 60 vs. 72. Sorry for the confusion. As far as acceleration with the AC motor it is very quick off the line.

[MorTech]

So what do those 3 sizes signify as far as range is concerned?

Don't know yet. EZGO doesn't publish typical watts per mile spec. EZGO does state 50% more efficient than Yamaha AC and Club Car..whatever that means.

Does EZGO really think there is a fleet market at these prices? Maybe fleet discount is substantial else fleets will just buy Yamaha QuieTech carts. Well, if TV can get $13K for a typical QuieTech, then these might sell well here.

[MorTech]

Liquefying hydrogen for export? I don't think so.

Crude oil is naturally created in the Earth using hydrogen, carbonates, and sun energy. Hydrocarbons are "liquid sunshine". See the Carbon Cycle.

Maybe this is the future of hydrocarbon production.

Fuel from Seawater? What's the Catch?
|
Innovation | Smithsonian (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/fuel-seawater-whats-catch-180953623/)

[biker1]

The prices in The Villages reflect all the goodies (sunbrella, seats, etc.) added on plus some healthy margin. The incremental cost between gas and the lithium-ion electrics may very well be passed on so you would be looking at $16K to $18k prices. I don't think those will sell very well.

Don't know yet. EZGO doesn't publish typical watts per mile spec. EZGO does state 50% more efficient than Yamaha AC and Club Car..whatever that means.

Does EZGO really think there is a fleet market at these prices? Maybe fleet discount is substantial else fleets will just buy Yamaha QuieTech carts. Well, if TV can get $13K for a typical QuieTech, then these might sell well here.

[MorTech]

I am guessing the 90 ah lithium battery will get about 40 miles.
That's Osceola Hills to Lopez for a round of golf and back...easily.
I consider 40 mile range minimum for TV.
It should charge at about 8 mph - so a full 5 hour charge should yield 40 miles.
Not bad but a little too pricey by at least a grand.

[Arctic Fox]

Liquefying hydrogen for export? I don't think so.

They have been liquefying natural gas for export for decades - no real difference for hydrogen

[Blackie]

Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Introduces New Technology for Fast-Charging, Noncombustible Batteries | UT News | The University of Texas at Austin (https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology)

A better battery for the near future - maybe?