USA budget deficit

[Rockyrd]

Budget deficits are pretty important to our future and that of our grandchildren mostly.

It is probably a bit early to begin discussion in specific terms because of pending budget and new laws, but in order to prepare and be ready to see how it develops, i offer this basic start.

Budget Deficit has decreased substantially in the last few years. Large increase in 2009 was due to the depression and getting us out of that.

Deficits in billions
2007 $161
2008 $$458
2009 $1413
2010 $1294
2011 $1295
2012 $1087
2013 $679
2014 $485
2015 $438
2016 $587



US Federal Deficit by Year - plus charts and analysis (http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html)


This is a good site for getting information on actually how the deficit is doing.

Where we go from here will depend on a lot of things......here are a few good links to get some idea on projections at this point.

"Last Tuesday, a report showed U.S. gross domestic product grew 1.6 percent in 2016, the slowest since 2011.

President Donald Trump has said the U.S. economy will grow at least 4 percent a year under his policies, and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin expects 3 percent growth. The administration also claims it can achieve that growth without boosting the U.S. budget deficit, because Washington will supposedly cut spending enough to offset reduced tax revenue.

Budget Director Mick Mulvaney said in February that the administration aims to offset a $54 billion increase in defense spending with reduced domestic spending. Trump's budget is expected next week.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/07/budget-deficit-must-grow-for-economic-growth-analyst-says.html

"President Trump says that the United States’ persistent trade deficit is a scourge that must be eliminated. But new data Tuesday shows the complexity of the costs and benefits of trade — and how reducing the trade deficit, if not done right, could leave Americans worse off.

What really matters is not whether the trade deficit is rising or falling. What matters is why.

The trade deficit rose 9.6 percent in January, to the highest level since 2012 (though it remains lower as a share of the total economy). It’s in the details of that $48.5 billion gap between what the United States exported and what it imported, though, that you see why the economy is more complex than the “trade deficits are bad” framing of the Trump administration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/upshot/the-huge-january-trade-deficit-shows-trumps-hard-job-ahead.html?_r=0

None of this will make a big difference as much will depend on what CONGRESS does and of course how much will the new health care bill cost the country.

That discussion will begin in earnest as soon as the CBO does its analysis and this is the site to read all about that....the CBO is mostly a very non partisan group....for the most part they offer not much dialogue but just the numbers and mostly pretty fairly done.

This link will allow checking to see what they do and all bills go through their office so if you really CARE about our deficit and budget you might want to save this site..

Health Care | Congressional Budget Office (https://www.cbo.gov/topics/health-care)

[Rockyrd]

I am going to expand on this a bit and ask a question of anyone who understands this better than I.

Today, in the news conference, Secy Price referred to THREE DISTINCT phases of the new bill.

BUT, I think he alluded to we will not know the total cost until phase 3. BUT he also said that it is required to pass the first two phases to determine the total cost.

Am I understanding this anywhere near correctly ?

[Don Baldwin]

Budget deficits are pretty important to our future and that of our grandchildren mostly.

It is probably a bit early to begin discussion in specific terms because of pending budget and new laws, but in order to prepare and be ready to see how it develops, i offer this basic start.

Budget Deficit has decreased substantially in the last few years. Large increase in 2009 was due to the depression and getting us out of that.

Deficits in billions
2007 $161
2008 $$458
2009 $1413
2010 $1294
2011 $1295
2012 $1087
2013 $679
2014 $485
2015 $438
2016 $587



US Federal Deficit by Year - plus charts and analysis (http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html)


This is a good site for getting information on actually how the deficit is doing.

Where we go from here will depend on a lot of things......here are a few good links to get some idea on projections at this point.

"Last Tuesday, a report showed U.S. gross domestic product grew 1.6 percent in 2016, the slowest since 2011.

President Donald Trump has said the U.S. economy will grow at least 4 percent a year under his policies, and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin expects 3 percent growth. The administration also claims it can achieve that growth without boosting the U.S. budget deficit, because Washington will supposedly cut spending enough to offset reduced tax revenue.

Budget Director Mick Mulvaney said in February that the administration aims to offset a $54 billion increase in defense spending with reduced domestic spending. Trump's budget is expected next week.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/07/budget-deficit-must-grow-for-economic-growth-analyst-says.html

"President Trump says that the United States’ persistent trade deficit is a scourge that must be eliminated. But new data Tuesday shows the complexity of the costs and benefits of trade — and how reducing the trade deficit, if not done right, could leave Americans worse off.

What really matters is not whether the trade deficit is rising or falling. What matters is why.

The trade deficit rose 9.6 percent in January, to the highest level since 2012 (though it remains lower as a share of the total economy). It’s in the details of that $48.5 billion gap between what the United States exported and what it imported, though, that you see why the economy is more complex than the “trade deficits are bad” framing of the Trump administration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/upshot/the-huge-january-trade-deficit-shows-trumps-hard-job-ahead.html?_r=0

None of this will make a big difference as much will depend on what CONGRESS does and of course how much will the new health care bill cost the country.

That discussion will begin in earnest as soon as the CBO does its analysis and this is the site to read all about that....the CBO is mostly a very non partisan group....for the most part they offer not much dialogue but just the numbers and mostly pretty fairly done.

This link will allow checking to see what they do and all bills go through their office so if you really CARE about our deficit and budget you might want to save this site..

Health Care | Congressional Budget Office (https://www.cbo.gov/topics/health-care)

Your numbers are wrong...in 10 years, the total debt has gone up $10 trillion...your numbers add up to $7.8 trillion...you're missing $2.2 trillion...or 22%.

[wjboyer1]

Your numbers are wrong...in 10 years, the total debt has gone up $10 trillion...your numbers add up to $7.8 trillion...you're missing $2.2 trillion...or 22%.
so, correct the numbers if they are wrong, otherwise be quiet

[Reiver]

Your numbers are wrong...in 10 years, the total debt has gone up $10 trillion...your numbers add up to $7.8 trillion...you're missing $2.2 trillion...or 22%.

Your assumption that the debt has something to do with the deficit is wrong...
The debt is EE Savings bonds sold, along with municipal bonds and the like.
The deficit is simply an unbalanced budget.

I haven't looked into it lately, but back when the debt was 12 trillion, we were creating just over 10 trillion in new debt every year and paying off just under 10 trillion every year.

[Rockyrd]

Your numbers are wrong...in 10 years, the total debt has gone up $10 trillion...your numbers add up to $7.8 trillion...you're missing $2.2 trillion...or 22%.

The numbers are from the federal government

AND

IT IS THE DEFICIT, NOT THE DEBT

[Don Baldwin]

so, correct the numbers if they are wrong, otherwise be quiet

The REAL number is about $1 trillion each year...10 years...from $10 trillion to $20 trillion.

Trump will borrow even more.

Your assumption that the debt has something to do with the deficit is wrong...
The debt is EE Savings bonds sold, along with municipal bonds and the like.
The deficit is simply an unbalanced budget.

I haven't looked into it lately, but back when the debt was 12 trillion, we were creating just over 10 trillion in new debt every year and paying off just under 10 trillion every year.

Wrong? It has EVERYTHING to do with it. You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Municipal bonds? In the Federal debt? I don't think so Tim.

When you have an "unbalanced budget" and you spend MORE than you take in...as the "unbalance" adds up...it becomes the total federal debt. About $1 trillion a year...ADDS UP to be $10 trillion after 10 years.

The cities, the municipal bond issuers have their OWN set of fiscal problems. Many are just as bankrupt as the federal government.

From the sound of it...you haven't "looked into it" as all.

Do you understand fiat currency and fractional reserve banking? Petrodollars? How the Federal Reserve "prints"? QE I,II, II? POMO?

I suggest it's best you women keep quiet...you only prove your ignorance when you speak. You don't impress us, you make us chuckle AND cry...laugh at your ignorance and naivete, while crying that YOU and your ilk...are considered "equals" and take jobs from the more knowledgeable and qualified.

The numbers are from the federal government

AND

IT IS THE DEFICIT, NOT THE DEBT

Another of the ignorant? Or making the point that...WHY do we trust ANY government numbers? They lie about EVERYTHING...why not the national debt too?

[Reiver]

Wrong? It has EVERYTHING to do with it. You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Municipal bonds? In the Federal debt? I don't think so Tim.
You all know my assistant, Al "I looked it up on the huff post" Borland!
Here is the chart of 'who holds the national debt' as of Feb 2017:
https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2017/opds022017.pdf

EDIT: You could balance the budget today and run a surplus for 10 years and it wouldn't matter to the debt one bit until we stop selling bonds and start pay them off.
I suggest you start here: Government - Frequently Asked Questions about the Public Debt (https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm#DebtFinance)

EDIT:

I suggest it's best you women keep quiet...you only prove your ignorance when you speak. You don't impress us, you make us chuckle AND cry...laugh at your ignorance and naivete, while crying that YOU and your ilk...are considered "equals" and take jobs from the more knowledgeable and qualified.

Perfect day for you to post that, Don.
~Steve

[Rockyrd]

"What Is the Federal Budget Deficit?

The deficit is the annual difference between government spending and government revenue. Every year, the government takes in revenue in the form of taxes and other income, and spends money on various programs, such as national defense, Social Security, and healthcare. If the government spends more than it takes in, then it runs a deficit. If the government takes in more than it spends, it runs a surplus.

What Is the Federal Debt?

The debt is the total amount of money the U.S. government owes. It represents the accumulation of past deficits, minus surpluses. Debt is like the balance on your credit card statement, which shows the total amount you owe, including interest. At the end of fiscal year 2016, CBO estimates that debt held by the public will equal about $14 trillion, or about 77% of GDP.

Debt vs. Deficits: What's the Difference? (http://www.pgpf.org/blog/2016/10/debt-vs-deficits-whats-the-difference)

[Rockyrd]

"In the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, both the U.S. deficit and debt spiked for several years as the federal government collected less tax revenue and increased spending to counteract the downturn.

The 2016 budget deficit was roughly $600 billion, with the federal government spending $3.9 trillion while taking in $3.3 trillion in revenue. This amounts to about 3 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), down from nearly 10 percent in 2009. The average over the past five decades has been 3 percent.

Since the start of the crisis in 2007, total U.S. government debt has roughly doubled. Debt held by the public—the measure of how much the government owes to outside investors—stands at $14.4 trillion. It has nearly doubled since 2007, rising from about 40 percent to nearly 80 percent of GDP. (Counting intragovernmental debt, or debts owed by one U.S. government agency to another, brings the total to nearly $20 trillion, more than 120 percent of GDP.)

Without any further spending, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that the debt will grow by $9.4 trillion over the next decade.

How Trump's budget proposal could affect America's debt | PBS NewsHour (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/trump-prepares-budget-proposal-actual-u-s-debt/)

[dirtbanker]

Thanks Rockface, now go bach to trimming the newspaper articles that you want your ₩!#€ to read...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[Paper1]

There seems to be posters who understand what our debt and deficiet are and how they work. I thought an intelligent discussion was going to take place for a moment. Forgive me I lost my head.

[Reiver]

"An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, ..."
~Plato (Public Domain)

[Rockyrd]

There seems to be posters who understand what our debt and deficiet are and how they work. I thought an intelligent discussion was going to take place for a moment. Forgive me I lost my head.

It is frustrating. I posted a few items that I felt were germaine to a discussion of our deficit. I posted links that I felt were informative, but not so bias.

I always felt sharing of information and discussing facts on this forum was the idea.

It appears that the majority of these people DONT KNOW..nor CARE TO KNO what is really going on. Their motivation, it appears, is to treat both this forum and other posters as "subjects" or "toys" to just play around with. Their life apparently is reduced to mocking people who know better than they, and simply preaching hate for other groups.

It is a shame. This forum is not a given right. We are blessed to have it, and those who simply use it to insult, are insulting everyone.

[Don Baldwin]

You all know my assistant, Al "I looked it up on the huff post" Borland!
Here is the chart of 'who holds the national debt' as of Feb 2017:
https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2017/opds022017.pdf

EDIT: You could balance the budget today and run a surplus for 10 years and it wouldn't matter to the debt one bit until we stop selling bonds and start pay them off.
I suggest you start here: Government - Frequently Asked Questions about the Public Debt (https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm#DebtFinance)

EDIT:

Perfect day for you to post that, Don.
~Steve

They just keep rolling over the debt. They play accounting games. They give the banks money to buy stocks and bonds. The whole financial system is a sham, a scam, a ponzi with those at the top raking in billions.

We have people who look at a deficit of $600 billion a year...but a total debt level going up over $1 trillion a year...And don't realize that there's over $400 billion "missing". It's missing because of accounting tricks. Ever play that math game where you pick a number...do some math to it and it always comes out to be the same number...the government does that trick too.
math trick pick a number it always comes out the same number - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=math+trick+pick+a+number+it+always+comes+ out+the+same+number&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

Nothing but propaganda comes from the "news"...turn it off. You may be UNinformed...but that's better than being MISinformed.

It is frustrating. I posted a few items that I felt were germaine to a discussion of our deficit. I posted links that I felt were informative, but not so bias.

I always felt sharing of information and discussing facts on this forum was the idea.

It appears that the majority of these people DONT KNOW..nor CARE TO KNO what is really going on. Their motivation, it appears, is to treat both this forum and other posters as "subjects" or "toys" to just play around with. Their life apparently is reduced to mocking people who know better than they, and simply preaching hate for other groups.

It is a shame. This forum is not a given right. We are blessed to have it, and those who simply use it to insult, are insulting everyone.

The PROBLEM is half the people who post here are ignorant women who believe what others...people in authority...tell them. Women...don't research. It's one of their flaws. It's more important WHO told them something as opposed to WHAT they're being told. They believe at face value if someone they trust is telling them. For instance, they'd believe the ladies on The View...as opposed to me. Even if they were wrong and I was right.

They come here, screaming and yelling, telling us we're wrong...when they don't have a clue.

[Reiver]

I'm sorry that your mom cut your allowance, Don, but it's no reason to blame ALL women for your financial and personal problems.
Read this: National Debt – Just Facts (http://www.justfacts.com/nationaldebt.asp)
and this: Isn't it Time to Stop Calling it “The National Debt”? - Evonomics (http://evonomics.com/isnt-time-stop-calling-national-debt/)
and cry yourself to sleep. Things will look better in the morning.

[rubicon]

[QUOTE=Guest]They just keep rolling over the debt. They play accounting games. They give the banks money to buy stocks and bonds. The whole financial system is a sham, a scam, a ponzi with those at the top raking in billions.

We have people who look at a deficit of $600 billion a year...but a total debt level going up over $1 trillion a year...And don't realize that there's over $400 billion "missing". It's missing because of accounting tricks. Ever play that math game where you pick a number...do some math to it and it always comes out to be the same number...the government does that trick too.
math trick pick a number it always comes out the same number - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=math+trick+pick+a+number+it+always+comes+ out+the+same+number&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

Nothing but propaganda comes from the "news"...turn it off. You may be UNinformed...but that's better than being MISinformed.

You and I can agree here. For instance there are items kept from the financial sheets such as the accounting of Fannie and Freddie. Also each successive budget carries water and adds more as a new budget is propose each year. Its why they continually end up raising the debt ceiling .

Frankly most can't understand government finance because government is simply too large and always chaotic but by year end results we know we are being taken to the cleaners.

The root cause of it all is fiat money because its based on a promise and one no one living today intends to honor that promise. but then politicians have their cash cows, taxpayers. Also, its why the FED was able to use QE 1,2,3 and its why people suffer because they cannot earn interest on their savings. The 1% were the big winners because the stock market belongs to them

Its foolish in my view to argue about the numbers because government accountants are creative,politicians artful dodgers and the CBO limited in its ability. Instead a national discussion needs to come to the forefront of exactly what system is the most effective and reliable. But as it stands now creating more money out of thin air is not settling in my mind

The only appreciable difference between or among politicians reverts to that same old argument of guns v butter...and not let us forget that we still have pork barrel spending to protect our allies in office.

Personal Best Regards:

[Don Baldwin]

I'm sorry that your mom cut your allowance, Don, but it's no reason to blame ALL women for your financial and personal problems.
Read this: National Debt – Just Facts (http://www.justfacts.com/nationaldebt.asp)
and this: Isn't it Time to Stop Calling it “The National Debt”? - Evonomics (http://evonomics.com/isnt-time-stop-calling-national-debt/)
and cry yourself to sleep. Things will look better in the morning.

"As of March 1, 2017, the official debt of the United States government is $19.9 trillion ($19,920,418,771,289).[1] This amounts to:

$61,365 for every person living in the U.S.[2]
$158,326 for every household in the U.S.[3]
106% of the U.S. gross domestic product.[4]
560% of annual federal revenues.[5]

At the close of the federal government’s 2016 fiscal year (September 30, 2016), the federal government had roughly:

$8.5 trillion ($8,542,000,000,000) in liabilities that are not accounted for in the publicly held national debt, such as federal employee retirement benefits, accounts payable, and environmental/disposal liabilities.[12]
$29.0 trillion ($29,038,000,000,000) in obligations for current Social Security participants above and beyond projected revenues from their payroll and benefit taxes, certain transfers from the general fund of the U.S. Treasury, and assets of the Social Security trust fund.[13] [14]
$32.9 trillion ($32,900,000,000,000) in obligations for current Medicare participants above and beyond projected revenues from their payroll taxes, benefit taxes, premium payments, and assets of the Medicare trust fund.[15] [16]

Combining the figures above with the national debt and subtracting the value of federal assets, the federal government had about $84.3 trillion ($84,306,000,000,000) in debts, liabilities, and unfunded obligations at the close of its 2016 fiscal year.[23]

* This $84.3 trillion shortfall is 93% of the combined net worth of all U.S. households and nonprofit organizations, including all assets in savings, real estate, corporate stocks, private businesses, and consumer durable goods such as automobiles and furniture.[24] [25]

* This shortfall equates to:

$260,382 for every person living in the U.S.[26]
$670,058 for every household in the U.S.[27]
451% of the U.S. gross domestic product.[28]
2,370% of annual federal revenues.[29]"

You were doing so well...and then you linked to this:

"Those government-issued assets, held by the private sector, are only “liabilities” to the government in the most pettifogging accounting sense. If you “owed” some money that you would never, ever have to pay, would you put that on your balance sheet as a liability? Would it be anything beyond a pro forma entry designed to satisfy some obsessive impulse for accounting closure? A debt that will never be paid off is a very questionable “liability.”"

This is how your government rips us off...they NEVER intended to "pay it back", they just keep "rolling it over" when it comes due. They BORROW with NO intention of EVER paying it back. And they DO owe it...they issue bonds to people who EXPECT to get paid back some day. Would YOU keep lending to someone who was ALWAYS broke and every time it came time for them to "pay up", they always asked you...just one more time...one more loan...? It's a big scam, a big ponzi...and those at the top make out VERY well.

[Paper1]

I'm 65 and an admitted news junkie. I'm a fiscal conservative and for years have agreed the debt was going to destroy this country but year after year it seems the debt and deficiet don't impact anything. We keep borrowing and printing money with no downside. I'm considering turning democrat and joining the fun.

[Don Baldwin]

I'm 65 and an admitted news junkie. I'm a fiscal conservative and for years have agreed the debt was going to destroy this country but year after year it seems the debt and deficiet don't impact anything. We keep borrowing and printing money with no downside. I'm considering turning democrat and joining the fun.

ONLY because they can "service the debt" through VERY low...artificially low...interest rates and continued borrowing. Why do you think a CD used to pay you 7% and now pays 1%? The government has to pay over $500 BILLION a year in interest payments. If interest rates go up by much, they can't make the interest payments.

There is talk of NEGATIVE interest rate so they CAN keep the giant ponzi going. Yes...YOU PAY the bank to hold your money. WHY do you think they want to ban cash and go digital? Because of crime??? HA ha ha...you funny! We'll be paying the government to borrow money.

Already MANY sovereign bonds are negative interest. Bet you didn't know that...

sovereign bonds are negative interest. - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=sovereign+bonds+are+negative+interest.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

There's a LOT people don't understand...

The biggest is the changing majority away from white...

[tcxr750]

Could a gathering of the best financial minds in the US put together a plan that would actually make some inroads on this potential economic nightmare? The plan would have to be enacted without the taint of political influence. Don't wait until the consequences are irreversible. Some economists could see the Great Recession coming and nobody in government or the financial world had enough voice to be heard to stop it.

[Don Baldwin]

Could a gathering of the best financial minds in the US put together a plan that would actually make some inroads on this potential economic nightmare? The plan would have to be enacted without the taint of political influence. Don't wait until the consequences are irreversible. Some economists could see the Great Recession coming and nobody in government or the financial world had enough voice to be heard to stop it.

We're now 49% white...and dropping fast...I'm afraid it IS irreversible.

[Reiver]

We're now 49% white...and dropping fast...I'm afraid it IS irreversible.
This has been said several times recently. I'm gonna call 'bull****' and ask for your source.

[ColdNoMore]

I'm sorry that your mom cut your allowance, Don, but it's no reason to blame ALL women for your financial and personal problems.
Read this: National Debt – Just Facts (http://www.justfacts.com/nationaldebt.asp)
and this: Isn't it Time to Stop Calling it “The National Debt”? - Evonomics (http://evonomics.com/isnt-time-stop-calling-national-debt/)
and cry yourself to sleep. Things will look better in the morning.

:boom:


:1rotfl:

[Don Baldwin]

This has been said several times recently. I'm gonna call 'bull****' and ask for your source.

Watch the video...Joe Biden...whites will be a minority...49% in 2017...it will fall from there...and that's a GOOD thing.

You should have read Obama's books...his Mein Kampf.

Joe Biden: "Whites will be a Minority in US by 2017 - and that's a good Thing" - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAGhyFHnuv8)

Go to :20...the whole thing is just a minute long.

:boom:


:1rotfl:

Guess you didn't read my reply or just ignored it?

Fool...women and their emotions...it'll be the death of us ALL.

[Reiver]

Joe Biden is your source?





okay....

[Don Baldwin]

Joe Biden is your source?





okay....

You think he was lying on CSPAN? you think the Vice President didn't know what he was talking about?

How about the NEA, the teachers group bragging about how "diversified" schools are now that the majority of children registering for school are minorities?

Google it.

[Reiver]

At this point, I'm going to make life much easier and just assume that whatever YOU say is false. It's a huge time saver.

[Don Baldwin]

At this point, I'm going to make life much easier and just assume that whatever YOU say is false. It's a huge time saver.

Sure...go ahead...fool.

[Don Baldwin]

At this point, I'm going to make life much easier and just assume that whatever YOU say is false. It's a huge time saver.

Couldn't resist...

its-official-the-us-is-becoming-a-minority-majority-nation (https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/07/06/its-official-the-us-is-becoming-a-minority-majority-nation)

American is becoming a majority-minority nation. It’s already happened in our public schools (http://www.slate.com/articles/life/tomorrows_test/2016/06/american_is_becoming_a_majority_minority_nation_it _s_already_happened_in.html)

When will minorities be the majority? - The Boston Globe (https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2016/02/26/when-will-minorities-majority/9v5m1Jj8hdGcXvpXtbQT5I/story.html)

Minority babies (barely) the majority among U.S. infants | Pew Research Center (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/23/its-official-minority-babies-are-the-majority-among-the-nations-infants-but-only-just/)

Babies Of Color Are Now The Majority, Census Says : NPR Ed : NPR (http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/07/01/484325664/babies-of-color-are-now-the-majority-census-says)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-illinois-minority-majority-child-population-met-20160916-story.html illinois-minority-majority-child-population-met

Need I go on?

And yes...the former VP...DID...say that we're already there.

I'm the one you SHOULD be listening to Reiver...