I MUST post this....

[Guest]

Since before the Iowa caucus, I have been saying what this article says and personally I feel a sense of some relief or something when I read this being published FINALLY in some type of national record.

I dont know how much I can cut and paste here but will try and I am sure if I overdo it, I will be told about it...
___________

"Why is President Barack Obama in such a hurry to get his socialized medicine bill passed?

Because he and his cunning circle realize some basic truths:

The American people in their unimaginable kindness and trust voted for a pig in a poke in 2008. They wanted so much to believe Barack Obama was somehow better and different from other ultra-leftists that they simply took him on faith.

They ignored his anti-white writings in his books. They ignored his quiet acceptance of hysterical anti-American diatribes by his minister, Jeremiah Wright.

They ignored his refusal to explain years at a time of his life as a student. They ignored his ultra-left record as a "community organizer," Illinois state legislator, and Senator.

The American people ignored his total zero of an academic record as a student and teacher, his complete lack of scholarship when he was being touted as a scholar. "
__________

If you read his autobiographies (yes that is plural) there is so much to question and follow up on and when you do, you cannot imagine how this man even got the nomination.
_________________________

"Now, the American people are starting to wake up to the truth. Barack Obama is a super likeable super leftist, not a fan of this country, way, way too cozy with the terrorist leaders in the Middle East, way beyond naïveté, all the way into active destruction of our interests and our allies and our future.

The American people have already awakened to the truth that the stimulus bill -- a great idea in theory -- was really an immense bribe to Democrat interest groups, and in no way an effort to help all Americans."

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/07/24/weve-figured-him-out

[Guest]

Since before the Iowa caucus, I have been saying what this article says and personally I feel a sense of some relief or something when I read this being published FINALLY in some type of national record.

I dont know how much I can cut and paste here but will try and I am sure if I overdo it, I will be told about it...
___________

"Why is President Barack Obama in such a hurry to get his socialized medicine bill passed?

Because he and his cunning circle realize some basic truths:

The American people in their unimaginable kindness and trust voted for a pig in a poke in 2008. They wanted so much to believe Barack Obama was somehow better and different from other ultra-leftists that they simply took him on faith.

They ignored his anti-white writings in his books. They ignored his quiet acceptance of hysterical anti-American diatribes by his minister, Jeremiah Wright.

They ignored his refusal to explain years at a time of his life as a student. They ignored his ultra-left record as a "community organizer," Illinois state legislator, and Senator.

The American people ignored his total zero of an academic record as a student and teacher, his complete lack of scholarship when he was being touted as a scholar. "
__________

If you read his autobiographies (yes that is plural) there is so much to question and follow up on and when you do, you cannot imagine how this man even got the nomination.
_________________________

"Now, the American people are starting to wake up to the truth. Barack Obama is a super likeable super leftist, not a fan of this country, way, way too cozy with the terrorist leaders in the Middle East, way beyond naïveté, all the way into active destruction of our interests and our allies and our future.

The American people have already awakened to the truth that the stimulus bill -- a great idea in theory -- was really an immense bribe to Democrat interest groups, and in no way an effort to help all Americans."

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/07/24/weve-figured-him-out The venom still keeps coming out of you. You finally found someone that wrote something you agree with. Am very happy for you. Maybe you wish we have the former president back in, since he was such a savior?? Get Texas to secede, and you can move there and have that leadership again.

[Guest]

The venom still keeps coming out of you. You finally found someone that wrote something you agree with. Am very happy for you. Maybe you wish we have the former president back in, since he was such a savior?? Get Texas to secede, and you can move there and have that leadership again.


As I said during the campaign when all the Obama supporters DID NOT TALK ABOUT HIS QUALIFICATIONS OR PLANS BUT ONLY ABOUT BUSH...I was not a supporter of Bush and was not very excited about McCain, but I did research on Obama and he is making all of my points much more quickly than I expected.

I assume from your comments that you are completely on board with this Presidency and all he has lied about and done....right ?

Those who voted for Obama as an anti Bush thing are simply lazy !

PS: The silence of those who were on here every day excuding passion for Obama during the campaign about what is happening is so loud. Why are you not even speaking of what is actually happening in this country ?

[Guest]

As I said during the campaign when all the Obama supporters DID NOT TALK ABOUT HIS QUALIFICATIONS OR PLANS BUT ONLY ABOUT BUSH...I was not a supporter of Bush and was not very excited about McCain, but I did research on Obama and he is making all of my points much more quickly than I expected.

I assume from your comments that you are completely on board with this Presidency and all he has lied about and done....right ?

Those who voted for Obama as an anti Bush thing are simply lazy !

PS: The silence of those who were on here every day excuding passion for Obama during the campaign about what is happening is so loud. Why are you not even speaking of what is actually happening in this country ? amazing, that the saying about you might not support the war, but you should support our troops, doesn't carry over to you might not agree with the president, but you should support him. No, I don't agree with everything the president has done. But, I didn't see you talking about the Bush lies. your agenda and feelings about Obama are very simple to understand. you can cover it up with all the rhetoric you want to, but the underlying sentiment is as plain as the nose on your face.

[Guest]

amazing, that the saying about you might not support the war, but you should support our troops, doesn't carry over to you might not agree with the president, but you should support him. No, I don't agree with everything the president has done. But, I didn't see you talking about the Bush lies. your agenda and feelings about Obama are very simple to understand. you can cover it up with all the rhetoric you want to, but the underlying sentiment is as plain as the nose on your face.


WOW...speaking of hate !!

First of all, BUSH IS NOT PRESIDENT ANYMORE, and this board did not exist much during his presidency thus you have absolutely no idea of what I said or may have said about his policies. However, you do feel enlightened enough to make your accusation about me.

My agenda,as you call it, with Obama has nothing to do with race, party, or even his personal character...I HAVE DOWN THAT ROAD AND HAVE THE PMS AND POSTS TO SHOW YOU WHERE THOSE ACCUSATIONS ARE FIRST THING I HEAR.....my objection is to his idealogy which has been evident since he was a young man...the only part race plays in any of this is his OBVIOUS involvement with the Trinity church for 20 years that HAD TO, depsite your protestations, have an influence...although most folks think he simply joined that church for POLITICAL reasons but did embrace the pastor in public as his mentor.

No, you do not know me and I wish you would take your passion that you show in slamming me and making assumptions and come on here and defend what you think needs defending.

[Guest]

WOW...speaking of hate !!

First of all, BUSH IS NOT PRESIDENT ANYMORE, and this board did not exist much during his presidency thus you have absolutely no idea of what I said or may have said about his policies. However, you do feel enlightened enough to make your accusation about me.

My agenda,as you call it, with Obama has nothing to do with race, party, or even his personal character...I HAVE DOWN THAT ROAD AND HAVE THE PMS AND POSTS TO SHOW YOU WHERE THOSE ACCUSATIONS ARE FIRST THING I HEAR.....my objection is to his idealogy which has been evident since he was a young man...the only part race plays in any of this is his OBVIOUS involvement with the Trinity church for 20 years that HAD TO, depsite your protestations, have an influence...although most folks think he simply joined that church for POLITICAL reasons but did embrace the pastor in public as his mentor.

No, you do not know me and I wish you would take your passion that you show in slamming me and making assumptions and come on here and defend what you think needs defending. I don't know if you attend religious services at all, but I really doubt that your minister, if you do, says everything that agrees with you. To keep up this attack on him about his minister, which Obabma DID come out and say he felt what he said was very wrong, and STEPPED away from his church, is ridiculous. Let it go, man. And, the only way I know you, is from your posts. So if you don't want anyone to disagree with you, you have two choices. One, to change your thinking and opinions, which you won't, and shouldn't do. Or two, to stop posting, which you shouldn't do either. How ironic, that you get upset with me voicing my opinion about your posts and thinking, because in your words, I don't know you. But, you can post anything you want about our President, and his thinking. without you knowing him!!! This seems like a double standard. You can towards someone else, but nobody can towards you??? That's really sad.

[Guest]

Since before the Iowa caucus, I have been saying what this article says and personally I feel a sense of some relief or something when I read this being published FINALLY in some type of national record.

I dont know how much I can cut and paste here but will try and I am sure if I overdo it, I will be told about it...
___________

"Why is President Barack Obama in such a hurry to get his socialized medicine bill passed?

Because he and his cunning circle realize some basic truths:

The American people in their unimaginable kindness and trust voted for a pig in a poke in 2008. They wanted so much to believe Barack Obama was somehow better and different from other ultra-leftists that they simply took him on faith.

They ignored his anti-white writings in his books. They ignored his quiet acceptance of hysterical anti-American diatribes by his minister, Jeremiah Wright.

They ignored his refusal to explain years at a time of his life as a student. They ignored his ultra-left record as a "community organizer," Illinois state legislator, and Senator.

The American people ignored his total zero of an academic record as a student and teacher, his complete lack of scholarship when he was being touted as a scholar. "
__________

If you read his autobiographies (yes that is plural) there is so much to question and follow up on and when you do, you cannot imagine how this man even got the nomination.
_________________________

"Now, the American people are starting to wake up to the truth. Barack Obama is a super likeable super leftist, not a fan of this country, way, way too cozy with the terrorist leaders in the Middle East, way beyond naïveté, all the way into active destruction of our interests and our allies and our future.

The American people have already awakened to the truth that the stimulus bill -- a great idea in theory -- was really an immense bribe to Democrat interest groups, and in no way an effort to help all Americans."

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/07/24/weve-figured-him-out

Bucco....it does not surprise me that your insightful post would receive an ad hominem attack from the far left. Those who cannot defend the indefensible and the facts that define the truth....attack the messenger. Classic Alinskyesque tactic right out of the Rules for Radicals. To them the truth is "venom". Perhaps someone from the left would like to argue the points in your post instead of attacking the man. Now that would be a fun debate and great mental exercise. Thanks for the courage to post emerging truths.

[Guest]

Bucco....it does not surprise me that your insightful post would receive an ad hominem attack from the far left. Those who cannot defend the indefensible and the facts that define the truth....attack the messenger. Classic Alinskyesque tactic right out of the Rules for Radicals. To them the truth is "venom". Perhaps someone from the left would like to argue the points in your post instead of attacking the man. Now that would be a fun debate and great mental exercise. Thanks for the courage to post emerging truths. I am not far left, as you put it. My point is, that is seems ok for people on here to attack Obama, or whoever for what they say and do. But, when someone wants to say something about THEM, by what we see in their posts, then it is an attack. What is the difference? Again, it's a double standard. Also, unless you are in the inner circle, I don't care how much you read, you are still at the will of the press as to what you ACTUALLY know. For people to post on here, and say they know this or that, are tunnel-visioned. If you have thin skin, and can't take when someone disagrees with your post, or sees something in your post that gives them an opinion of you, that's too bad. How do you think YOU get an opinion of a president? By the same way, hearing reports, reading articles, etc etc. So, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander. Don't expect everyone to agree with the way you think.

[Guest]

I am not far left, as you put it. My point is, that is seems ok for people on here to attack Obama, or whoever for what they say and do. But, when someone wants to say something about THEM, by what we see in their posts, then it is an attack. What is the difference? Again, it's a double standard. Also, unless you are in the inner circle, I don't care how much you read, you are still at the will of the press as to what you ACTUALLY know. For people to post on here, and say they know this or that, are tunnel-visioned. If you have thin skin, and can't take when someone disagrees with your post, or sees something in your post that gives them an opinion of you, that's too bad. How do you think YOU get an opinion of a president? By the same way, hearing reports, reading articles, etc etc. So, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander. Don't expect everyone to agree with the way you think.

Biggest difference for your consideration is this....

President Obama is an elected public official and I am not !

You may disagree with me on anything (many do and have) but to equate a personal attack on me (and by inference my pastor) to vetting and discussing a man who made himself a public person by running for office speaks volumes !

[Guest]

Biggest difference for your consideration is this....

President Obama is an elected public official and I am not !

You may disagree with me on anything (many do and have) but to equate a personal attack on me (and by inference my pastor) to vetting and discussing a man who made himself a public person by running for office speaks volumes ! IF you post on a public board, then you are open to criticism. Period. I did not attack your pastor, simply said I doubt if everything YOUR pastor says and does agrees with you. That's human nature. amazing, that you, and Cabo, and many others can throw around all sorts of comments, far left, radical, etc etc. without any consideration of, in your words, KNOWING me, but when it is directed at you, then the story is different. You can have any opinion you want as far as I am concerned, and I have agreed with you at times. this is what we have in this country. But it seems, when people disagree, then you say you are being attacked. No different than when you voice yours, but is that attacking?? In your mind, no, and i don't think so either. Again, if you can't take someone disagreeing, don't post!!

[Guest]

When a new administration takes office in '12 or '16, a new wave of opposition to that administraton will emerge.

Until then things will look this way on forums.

[Guest]

I don't know if you attend religious services at all, but I really doubt that your minister, if you do, says everything that agrees with you. To keep up this attack on him about his minister, which Obabma DID come out and say he felt what he said was very wrong, and STEPPED away from his church, is ridiculous. Let it go, man. And, the only way I know you, is from your posts. So if you don't want anyone to disagree with you, you have two choices. One, to change your thinking and opinions, which you won't, and shouldn't do. Or two, to stop posting, which you shouldn't do either. How ironic, that you get upset with me voicing my opinion about your posts and thinking, because in your words, I don't know you. But, you can post anything you want about our President, and his thinking. without you knowing him!!! This seems like a double standard. You can towards someone else, but nobody can towards you??? That's really sad.
As far as knowing President Obama or any other politician, regardless of party, the person's sales rhetoric (campaign or afterwards) means very little. What does matter are the actions, and they have been punctuated with arrogance and self-importance. That is a pity, because the potential and opportunity for greatness is there, but instead the trend has been to act as as "benevolent dictator" and snob. After all, the Harvard professor had to be in the right, and the blue-collar cop had to have over-reacted! Discounting the racial bias demonstrated, the class-elitism itself is sad.

This is not to say that previous Presidents did not suffer from the same delusions of grandeur. However, most of them were not so blatant in their separation from the common citizenry.

[Guest]

As far as knowing President Obama or any other politician, regardless of party, the person's sales rhetoric (campaign or afterwards) means very little. What does matter are the actions, and they have been punctuated with arrogance and self-importance. That is a pity, because the potential and opportunity for greatness is there, but instead the trend has been to act as as "benevolent dictator" and snob. After all, the Harvard professor had to be in the right, and the blue-collar cop had to have over-reacted! Discounting the racial bias demonstrated, the class-elitism itself is sad.

This is not to say that previous Presidents did not suffer from the same delusions of grandeur. However, most of them were not so blatant in their separation from the common citizenry.Agree with this, Steve. I was happy at first with what seemed to be Obama listening to all sides, having an open ear. But I definitely have seen the same as in the past leaderships in some cases, with this attitude of this is the plan, and that's the way it is.

[Guest]

Hey Guys! It's a beautiful day in the Villages!

Get out and have some fun!!

lol

[Guest]

The venom still keeps coming out of you. You finally found someone that wrote something you agree with. Am very happy for you. Maybe you wish we have the former president back in, since he was such a savior?? Get Texas to secede, and you can move there and have that leadership again.

Personal attacks are discouraged here. They are also against the TOS, if I'm not wrong. Any public figure is fair game. Obama is a public figure. Bucco is a member of this forum.


Edit: I am not a moderator nor do I portray one on television or the movies.

[Guest]

Personal attacks are discouraged here. They are also against the TOS, if I'm not wrong. Any public figure is fair game. Obama is a public figure. Bucco is a member of this forum.


Edit: I am not a moderator nor do I portray one on television or the movies. Thx for your input on this topic. I am sure they appreciate you sticking up for them.

[Guest]

Thx for your input on this topic. I am sure they appreciate you sticking up for them.

THEY ?

Are you a member of some elite group that none of us can belong to ?

Listen, I have NEVER EVER NOT ONCE criticized President Obama on a personal level...NOT ONE TIME, and I want you to do a search and check it out.

I HAVE NEVER EVER crticized nor even mentioned his race unless someone else brought it up...NEVER..NOT ONCE.

I have NEVER EVER mentioned his family, his wife or his children.

I have only crticized his idealogy and his training and background RELATIVE to becoming the President of the US !!!

Now, your first words in response to a post which was mostly from a printed article...was...

"The venom still keeps coming out of you."

That was the first thing you said and then you followed it up with this...

"your agenda and feelings about Obama are very simple to understand. you can cover it up with all the rhetoric you want to, but the underlying sentiment is as plain as the nose on your face."

I can only assume you are bringing up race or some other issue that you have and if that is what it is...SAY IT....If I had a problem with that issue I would say it !!!

Please...if you want to support the President, then do it.....we could use somebody to come on here who supports him and tell everyone WHY...
but...

To simply begin by blasting me because I dont agree with your politics is just plain wrong....I have been very consistent since last spring and summer on how I feel. It has not changed. Has your zeal changed any ?

Tell everyone why you support the President....stop simply tearing into those who dont !

[Guest]

Hey Guys! It's a beautiful day in the Villages!

Get out and have some fun!!

lol


Best thing I have seen posted.....:beer3:

[Guest]

THEY ?

Are you a member of some elite group that none of us can belong to ?

Listen, I have NEVER EVER NOT ONCE criticized President Obama on a personal level...NOT ONE TIME, and I want you to do a search and check it out.

I HAVE NEVER EVER crticized nor even mentioned his race unless someone else brought it up...NEVER..NOT ONCE.

I have NEVER EVER mentioned his family, his wife or his children.

I have only crticized his idealogy and his training and background RELATIVE to becoming the President of the US !!!

Now, your first words in response to a post which was mostly from a printed article...was...

"The venom still keeps coming out of you."

That was the first thing you said and then you followed it up with this...

"your agenda and feelings about Obama are very simple to understand. you can cover it up with all the rhetoric you want to, but the underlying sentiment is as plain as the nose on your face."

I can only assume you are bringing up race or some other issue that you have and if that is what it is...SAY IT....If I had a problem with that issue I would say it !!!

Please...if you want to support the President, then do it.....we could use somebody to come on here who supports him and tell everyone WHY...
but...

To simply begin by blasting me because I dont agree with your politics is just plain wrong....I have been very consistent since last spring and summer on how I feel. It has not changed. Has your zeal changed any ?

Tell everyone why you support the President....stop simply tearing into those who dont !

You MUST be joking.....You have critized Obama on every level possible.

[Guest]

THEY ?

Are you a member of some elite group that none of us can belong to ?

Listen, I have NEVER EVER NOT ONCE criticized President Obama on a personal level...NOT ONE TIME, and I want you to do a search and check it out.

I HAVE NEVER EVER crticized nor even mentioned his race unless someone else brought it up...NEVER..NOT ONCE.

I have NEVER EVER mentioned his family, his wife or his children.

I have only crticized his idealogy and his training and background RELATIVE to becoming the President of the US !!!

Now, your first words in response to a post which was mostly from a printed article...was...

"The venom still keeps coming out of you."

That was the first thing you said and then you followed it up with this...

"your agenda and feelings about Obama are very simple to understand. you can cover it up with all the rhetoric you want to, but the underlying sentiment is as plain as the nose on your face."

I can only assume you are bringing up race or some other issue that you have and if that is what it is...SAY IT....If I had a problem with that issue I would say it !!!

Please...if you want to support the President, then do it.....we could use somebody to come on here who supports him and tell everyone WHY...
but...

To simply begin by blasting me because I dont agree with your politics is just plain wrong....I have been very consistent since last spring and summer on how I feel. It has not changed. Has your zeal changed any ?

Tell everyone why you support the President....stop simply tearing into those who dont ! As the old saying goes..."Me thinks you doth protest too much"

[Guest]

You MUST be joking.....You have critized Obama on every level possible.


THAT YOU WILL NEED TO SHOW ME !

One post where I criticized him personaly, his family, his children or his race or religion !!!!

Will wait for your response !

[Guest]

You MUST be joking.....You have critized Obama on every level possible.

Are you saying that your against criticizing a president of the USA? Has any criticism been aimed at the previous president?

[Guest]

As the old saying goes..."Me thinks you doth protest too much"

Bucco, it looks like your antagonist is attempting to wax poetic ..... although I believe the line was actually, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Whatever. I enjoy a well turned phrase or verse....especially if it used to make a point.

I always liked Kipling. These few lines seem relevent and appropriate at this moment.

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,.......

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! :beer3:

With apologies to Rudyard Kipling.

Keedy.......sometimes YOU scare me. :mademyday:

[Guest]

THAT YOU WILL NEED TO SHOW ME !

One post where I criticized him personaly, his family, his children or his race or religion !!!!

Will wait for your response !

How many times have you talked about his church? That would be his religion.

[Guest]

Are you saying that your against criticizing a president of the USA? Has any criticism been aimed at the previous president?

Criticizing is one thing....but much of this goes way beyond criticizing.

There are claims he is a socialist, leftist, Muslim, terrorist.....some people believe he isn't an American citizen. The list is endless and constant.

I opposed Bush and his war....I didn't and still don't believe he was elected instead anointed by the Supreme Court. But he was the president for 8 years no matter what I thought. I didn't get on a website every day raging against the President. Was I upset about wire tapping? Yes Torture? Yes. The War. Yes.

Those are selected points.....

[Guest]

Criticizing is one thing....but much of this goes way beyond criticizing.

There are claims he is a socialist, leftist, Muslim, terrorist.....some people believe he isn't an American citizen. The list is endless and constant.

I opposed Bush and his war....I didn't and still don't believe he was elected instead anointed by the Supreme Court. But he was the president for 8 years no matter what I thought. I didn't get on a website every day raging against the President. Was I upset about wire tapping? Yes Torture? Yes. The War. Yes.

Those are selected points.....

Selective points, huh?
There is legitimate reasons to question and be very scared of Obama.
He has never showed his original birth certificate.
He didn't spend his formative years growing up in America so culturally he is not American
He has spent half his life aligned with radical extremists who hate America and has refused to publicly denounce these radicals who wish to see America fail.
He wants to change America to a European style country where the government sector dominates instead of the private sector...so yes he is a socialist.
He will not listen or even consider opposing points of view from intelligent people.
He has never run a company or met a payroll.
He blames America for everything and delivers this message abroad.

He is the most arrogant and self-important hypocrite I have ever seen as a POTUS and I will beat that drum every day for the next 3 1/2 years until he is replaced by a responsible American.


********* This list is from my own research and my own opinion. It is 100% typed and no cut and paste.

[Guest]

Cologal, you say you dont believe he won the election, in 2000. Every recount done, by both Republicans and Democats, showed Bush to be the winner. Don't forget, also, that the media called Florida for Gore before the polls closed, in the Panhandle. Three polls were conducted by Republicans, Democrats and an Independent poll. They all showed that it cost Bush 10,000 votes. This would have changed the whole picture, not only in Florida, but the rest of the country where the polls had hours to go before closing. I really think there should be a law against exit polling and reporting results until all polls, across the country, have closed.

[Guest]

"I am not far left, as you put it. My point is, that is seems ok for people on here to attack Obama, or whoever for what they say and do. But, when someone wants to say something about THEM, by what we see in their posts, then it is an attack. What is the difference? Again, it's a double standard. Also, unless you are in the inner circle, I don't care how much you read, you are still at the will of the press as to what you ACTUALLY know. For people to post on here, and say they know this or that, are tunnel-visioned. If you have thin skin, and can't take when someone disagrees with your post, or sees something in your post that gives them an opinion of you, that's too bad. How do you think YOU get an opinion of a president? By the same way, hearing reports, reading articles, etc etc. So, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander. Don't expect everyone to agree with the way you think. "

Bravo RCT!!

Of course one of the reactionary's best tools is to attack the public official "ad hominem" personally, but then become "personally" offended when one raises the possibility that point.

Sarah Palin is the master at this: Attacks everyone and everything she says she hates, calling them all sorts of ad hominen names: liars, socialists, Marxists,elites, anti-Americans, and anti-Christian (in other words Jews) and then screams when the press don;t kow-tow to her manipulating message.

She then parades her kids everywhere while bragging about their strong family values & then resents when people raise questions about her promiscuous daughter or their two drug/alcohol abusing minors. (I'm not counting Letterman, whose joke about A-Rod, not her daughter, was way over the line of decency.)

Let's face it- a certain fringe group is angry and won't accept Obama's win no matter what. How do you identify them. Simple:

-Obama's not a citizen
-Obama's a Muslim
-Obama's church minister's opinions
-"Socialist"
-America "hater" or "apologist"
-Tea bagging
-Favors regressive Consumption tax, so called "Fair Tax"

If you see any one of these, and I'm sure I left out others, you're bound to find fringe individuals basically parrotting the words of Limbaugh, Coulter, Boortz or other dittoheads. In fact, they're proud to be called "dittoheads"- meaning they have no need to think, just repeat verbatim the lines they hear from the "new" leadership of the Republic/Conservative leadership.

Not that there is ANYONE here that falls into this category. Just thought I'd share my observations.

[Guest]

Anecdotal. Paraphrase. Direct quote. Links. Cut and paste. And my favorite....when some one presents researched facts and sources to parry a visceral verbal diatribe.

btk

[Guest]

...regarding the President's qualifications, what he's accomplished in the first six months of his administration (some good and some bad IMHO), and even why he is pushing the healthcare bill at such a pace?

Did anyone ever consider that President Obama wanted to get badly-needed legislation passed that had been thoughtfully prepared over several months by his administration? By doing so he would minimize the fiddling with the content by 435 self-serving legislators and thousands more special interest lobbyists trying to get their clients "taken care of" in addition to--or instead of--the American public?

People might say that the 435 are simply doing "the people's work". But any lucid observer might have another differing opinion...that for the most part they serve the moneyed special interests and have had the people's work low on their priority lists for years. For me, I just as soon have a thoughtfully prepared bill that avoids that sort of manipulation by the "electeds", who haven't maintained our trust in years, driven by their wealthy lobbyist backers. Even if I don't necessarily agree with all of it. Pushing for a timely up-or-down vote on a thoughtfully-prepared bill is totally consistent with our Constitution, and in this case smart politics.

Just a slightly different point-of-view.

[Guest]

...Did anyone ever consider that President Obama wanted to get badly-needed legislation passed that had been thoughtfully prepared over several months by his administration?

I thought he let Congress prepare the bill to facilitate the process? Wait a minute.....am I defending Obama? I changed my mind. Yeah....right....what you said. :bowdown:

[Guest]

...regarding the President's qualifications, what he's accomplished in the first six months of his administration (some good and some bad IMHO), and even why he is pushing the healthcare bill at such a pace?

Did anyone ever consider that President Obama wanted to get badly-needed legislation passed that had been thoughtfully prepared over several months by his administration? By doing so he would minimize the fiddling with the content by 435 self-serving legislators and thousands more special interest lobbyists trying to get their clients "taken care of" in addition to--or instead of--the American public?

People might say that the 435 are simply doing "the people's work". But any lucid observer might have another differing opinion...that for the most part they serve the moneyed special interests and have had the people's work low on their priority lists for years. For me, I just as soon have a thoughtfully prepared bill that avoids that sort of manipulation by the "electeds", who haven't maintained our trust in years, driven by their wealthy lobbyist backers. Even if I don't necessarily agree with all of it. Pushing for a timely up-or-down vote on a thoughtfully-prepared bill is totally consistent with our Constitution, and in this case smart politics.

Just a slightly different point-of-view.

If the bill is "thoughtfully prepared" but needs our agents' votes to be implemented, doesn't it make sense to open it up for full explanation, understanding and debate? To say, "just vote YEA and trust me" negates the check-and-balance. If the bill is that good, it should not just be something written in the dark and implemented in a rush.

All of our money and lives are going to be affected by this bill, so shouldn't we all understand it first? Anything less indicates the bill contains some surprises that no one wants known until it's too late.

[Guest]

Selective points, huh?
There is legitimate reasons to question and be very scared of Obama.
He has never showed his original birth certificate.
He didn't spend his formative years growing up in America so culturally he is not American
He has spent half his life aligned with radical extremists who hate America and has refused to publicly denounce these radicals who wish to see America fail.
He wants to change America to a European style country where the government sector dominates instead of the private sector...so yes he is a socialist.
He will not listen or even consider opposing points of view from intelligent people.
He has never run a company or met a payroll.
He blames America for everything and delivers this message abroad.

He is the most arrogant and self-important hypocrite I have ever seen as a POTUS and I will beat that drum every day for the next 3 1/2 years until he is replaced by a responsible American.


********* This list is from my own research and my own opinion. It is 100% typed and no cut and paste.


You are a birther....and thank you for making my point.

[Guest]

Cologal, you say you dont believe he won the election, in 2000. Every recount done, by both Republicans and Democrats, showed Bush to be the winner. Don't forget, also, that the media called Florida for Gore before the polls closed, in the Panhandle. Three polls were conducted by Republicans, Democrats and an Independent poll. They all showed that it cost Bush 10,000 votes. This would have changed the whole picture, not only in Florida, but the rest of the country where the polls had hours to go before closing. I really think there should be a law against exit polling and reporting results until all polls, across the country, have closed.

Sally Jo...I beg to differ about the recount. The Supreme Court halted the recount. And you are right that the exit polls, for the first time, did not mirror the actual count. This only fuels the speculation that some funny business went on. I understand why people in CA want to hold election results from the East and I think they did do a good job this year waiting and releasing by region.

Neither of us can change what happened in 2000...the funny thing to me was many of my Republican friends were raging about how no President that lost the general election but won the Electoral would be legitimate. They sure changed their tune....

[Guest]

You are a birther....and thank you for making my point.

How about making a point instead of the usual drive-by baloney.
Also, I forgot to add to my list that Obama is a racist. He proved it by calling an action by a white policeman "Stupidly" Funny...the words that come out of one's own mind when a teleprompter is apparently not working.

[Guest]

How about making a point instead of the usual drive-by baloney.
Also, I forgot to add to my list that Obama is a racist. He proved it by calling an action by a white policeman "Stupidly" Funny...the words that come out of one's own mind when a teleprompter is apparently not working.Watch Glenn Beck tonight at 5 pm.... he plans to make this point.

[Guest]

How about making a point instead of the usual drive-by baloney.
Also, I forgot to add to my list that Obama is a racist. He proved it by calling an action by a white policeman "Stupidly" Funny...the words that come out of one's own mind when a teleprompter is apparently not working.

The only thing one can do is laugh!

[Guest]

The only thing one can do is laugh!

Laughter is good medicine...you should come to forum a few times a day to stay healthy.:jester:

[Guest]

Watch Glenn Beck tonight at 5 pm.... he plans to make this point.

Like I would watch Glen Beck

[Guest]

Laughter is good medicine...you should come to forum a few times a day to stay healthy.:jester:


You wanted a point by point answer:


Originally Posted by Keedy
Selective points, huh?

There is legitimate reasons to question and be very scared of Obama.


He has never showed his original birth certificate.

The State of Hawaii has provided his birth certificate.

He didn't spend his formative years growing up in America so culturally he is not American

This is just BS...he spent most of his fomative years in Hawaii the 50th state

He has spent half his life aligned with radical extremists who hate America and has refused to publicly denounce these radicals who wish to see America fail.

Just more crap.. He served on a board with a former Weatherman. I wouldn't call that aligned.
He wants to change America to a European style country where the government sector dominates instead of the private sector...so yes he is a socialist.

You have no proof he is a socialist...

He will not listen or even consider opposing points of view from intelligent people.

He met with the Republicans during the stimulus debate accepted some changes and then NOT one Republican voted for the stimulus package.

He has never run a company or met a payroll.

Would you like to talk about W's failed business history.

He blames America for everything and delivers this message abroad.

Just another load of crap.....

He is the most arrogant and self-important hypocrite I have ever seen as a POTUS and I will beat that drum every day for the next 3 1/2 years until he is replaced by a responsible American.

I think I can name at least one other totally arrogant administration in recent history.

And we all know what you mean when you say he isn't an American


********* This list is from my own research and my own opinion. It is 100% typed and no cut and paste

[Guest]

Like I would watch Glen BeckSure, why not... laughter is good medicine.

[Guest]

...doesn't it make sense to open it up for full explanation, understanding and debate?...If that's all that was done in some extra time taken before voting, I'd agree. But if Congress is given more time, not only does the "debate" become stone-throwing, but too many self-serving legislators and their moneyed lobbyist backers start adding amendments or changing the language, often to something 180 degrees from what was intended.

Juat as Bucco doesn't trust the President, I have at least an equal amount of distrust for the U.S. Congress. Given the choice, I'll side with the "benevolent dictator".

[Guest]

I say that congress taking their August recess is the best thing that can happen. They can do no harm when they are home.

[Guest]

You wanted a point by point answer:


Originally Posted by Keedy
Selective points, huh?

There is legitimate reasons to question and be very scared of Obama.


He has never showed his original birth certificate.

The State of Hawaii has provided his birth certificate.

He didn't spend his formative years growing up in America so culturally he is not American

This is just BS...he spent most of his fomative years in Hawaii the 50th state

He has spent half his life aligned with radical extremists who hate America and has refused to publicly denounce these radicals who wish to see America fail.

Just more crap.. He served on a board with a former Weatherman. I wouldn't call that aligned.
He wants to change America to a European style country where the government sector dominates instead of the private sector...so yes he is a socialist.

You have no proof he is a socialist...

He will not listen or even consider opposing points of view from intelligent people.

He met with the Republicans during the stimulus debate accepted some changes and then NOT one Republican voted for the stimulus package.

He has never run a company or met a payroll.

Would you like to talk about W's failed business history.

He blames America for everything and delivers this message abroad.

Just another load of crap.....

He is the most arrogant and self-important hypocrite I have ever seen as a POTUS and I will beat that drum every day for the next 3 1/2 years until he is replaced by a responsible American.

I think I can name at least one other totally arrogant administration in recent history.

And we all know what you mean when you say he isn't an American


********* This list is from my own research and my own opinion. It is 100% typed and no cut and paste
:a20: Thanks for making me more healthy. LOL

[Guest]

....I feel a sense of some relief or something when I read this being published FINALLY in some type of national record....
"The American people ignored his total zero of an academic record as a student and teacher, his complete lack of scholarship when he was being touted as a scholar. "There's only a couple of things we MUST do, Bucco. Publishing an article so poorly researched as this one isn't one of them.

If you get a sense of relief from this article, and if the author's research is as poorly done as is reflected in the sentence that you cut and pasted from the article (above), then the exchange of barbs above regarding laughter and it's benefits certainly apply. The author apparently doesn't know and didn't bother to try to find out the academic record needed to get into the Harvard Law School. Or the academic achievement needed to be selected to write for the Harvard Law Review. Or to be chosen to edit the Law Review. Frankly, I'm surprised that Ben Stein (the author of thr article) wrote such a ridiculous statement. He should know better. Like President Obama, he graduated from Columbia University, going on the Yale Law School, where he was valedictorian of his class. Why would Stein make such a statement, when his own academic experience shows that he absolutely knows better?

"...complete lack of scholarship"? Now that's laughable. If this is the best article you could find to give you relief, Bucco, I'd suggest you keep looking.

[Guest]

Actually, Cologal, I was talking about recounts done after the fact. One in particular was done by the Miama Hearald and USA Today, both liberal papers, and it showed that Bush won, Other news organizations, also, conducted recounts. Their results were the same.
As for exit polls. The polls always seem to show Democrats winning. Makes you wonder who they ask. Surely, the main stream media wouldn't be trying to sway people who haven't voted yet!!

[Guest]

Actually, Cologal, I was talking about recounts done after the fact. One in particular was done by the Miama Hearald and USA Today, both liberal papers, and it showed that Bush won, Other news organizations, also, conducted recounts. Their results were the same.
As for exit polls. The polls always seem to show Democrats winning. Makes you wonder who they ask. Surely, the main stream media wouldn't be trying to sway people who haven't voted yet!!


I don't have the same opinion of the main stream media that you do. And I know when both Nixon and Regan ran the exit polls clearly didn't indicate that the Dem's were winning.

But I know what you mean as I have lived in Colorado for 40 years...many times it wasn't even worth going to the polls after work.

Take care.

[Guest]

I don't have the same opinion of the main stream media that you do. And I know when both Nixon and Regan ran the exit polls clearly didn't indicate that the Dem's were winning.

But I know what you mean as I have lived in Colorado for 40 years...many times it wasn't even worth going to the polls after work.

Take care.
Nixon and Reagan ran the exit polls? Really. Could you please expand on that?

[Guest]

If that's all that was done in some extra time taken before voting, I'd agree. But if Congress is given more time, not only does the "debate" become stone-throwing, but too many self-serving legislators and their moneyed lobbyist backers start adding amendments or changing the language, often to something 180 degrees from what was intended.

Juat as Bucco doesn't trust the President, I have at least an equal amount of distrust for the U.S. Congress. Given the choice, I'll side with the "benevolent dictator".
I too have little trust in many congressfolk, but they are part of the process, and all there is for check-and-balance, and unless they vote for something, it doesn't happen. Better they know what they are voting to spend our money on, than throw up their hands and say, "what the heck, it's only money!"

Will there be grandstanding? You bet there will. But there already has been grandstanding from the White House, so a little more won't hurt.

I thought one of the goals of this administration was "full disclosure" because of Democratic accusations during the last administration of back-room actions. So, now this administration (and Congress) can do what they said they would, and not do what they complained about the last few years.

[Guest]

...I thought one of the goals of this administration was "full disclosure" because of Democratic accusations during the last administration of back-room actions...We keep referring to HR 3200 which, if I understand correctly, is for the most part the healthcare reform plan put forward by the White House, all 1,017 pages of it. I guess there are a couple of other less inclusive bills batting around the House, but this is supposed to be the one that embraces the administration's plan for reform.

The Senate has apparently not responded with a bill from that body. I guess that might mean that they don't want to put forth the effort to actually draft a bill, choosing rather to simply negotiate whatever bill comes out of the House in joint committee.

But as far as "full disclosure" and "transparency" is concerned, I don't know what more the administration could do beyond this. Maybe read it for us? Nah, we can do that. Here it is...

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf

[Guest]

Nixon and Reagan ran the exit polls? Really. Could you please expand on that?


Let me help you with this....Sally Jo said the Democrats always are winning in the exit polls....

I replied that when Nixon ran, 1972, he wasn't losing in the exit polls...same thing when Reagan ran.

Hope that helps.

[Guest]

We keep referring to HR 3200 which, if I understand correctly, is for the most part the healthcare reform plan put forward by the White House, all 1,017 pages of it. I guess there are a couple of other less inclusive bills batting around the House, but this is supposed to be the one that embraces the administration's plan for reform.

The Senate has apparently not responded with a bill from that body. I guess that might mean that they don't want to put forth the effort to actually draft a bill, choosing rather to simply negotiate whatever bill comes out of the House in joint committee.

But as far as "full disclosure" and "transparency" is concerned, I don't know what more the administration could do beyond this. Maybe read it for us? Nah, we can do that. Here it is...

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf

As the Administration has ghost-written the legislation sponsored by Rep. Dingell (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:h.r.03200:), and the fact that the "thomas" URL has all the bill's content, that is all that is necessary to make it available. Now, I'm not sure how sharp everyone on this board is, but I know that the 800+ pages, many of which link into other statutes which also have to be researched, took me quite a bit of time to go through in a cursory manner. There's a lot of technical content meshed with a lot of vague "will do later" items that I still don't understand.

My point is, this bill is a lulu, and is as intense to go through as any document I have seen in quite a while. As my knowledge of medical systems is minimal, there's a lot of questions I have, and that's with a cursory review.

This is more than a "trust me" exercise. Shouldn't it get the full attention of Congress before committing $1Trillion and initiating 4 years of utter confusion?

[Guest]

...I know that the 800+ pages, many of which link into other statutes which also have to be researched, took me quite a bit of time to go through in a cursory manner. There's a lot of technical content....this bill is a lulu, and is as intense to go through as any document I have seen in quite a while....I had the same reaction you did, Steve. While not a lawyer, I read many, many loan and legal documents as a banker. In a whole lot of cases, I needed the assistance of our lawyers to explain the meaning of terms, the inter-relationship between sections or how existing law impacts on the content of the document I was reviewing. In many instances, about the best I could do alone is prepare a list of questions that I needed help with.

In reading thru HR 3200, in a cursory manner as you did, I find this bill in the same category, except that I don't have a lawyer to lean on. That being the case, I found it interesting that some posters here in the Political Forum listed the meaning of various sections and various pages with such absolute certainty. I went back and read several of the pages they cited and came away with either a question or with an altogether different interpretation.

A whole bunch of people were also aghast that Representative John Dingell said that he saw little benefit for him to read the entire bill. I know that his role was just to introduce the bill that someone else actually wrote and that he was probably being honest. But I found his statement ill-timed and unwise in that he still was listed as the principal sponsor of the bill. One really needs a lawyer to spend the time explaining the bill, it's terms, definitions and interrelationships. Is Dingell a lawyer? Even if he isn't, he's been making laws for a long, long time.

[Guest]

And VK, the fact that we read the same page and come away with different views or different questions should tell us all that this bill needs a lot more review and reading before it is passed into law. I would like you to read the page that says the government has electronic access to your bank account and see what your interpretation of that is. Being a banker could you better explain it. Maybe I just don't understand electronic funds transfer from my account to the government.

[Guest]

I had the same reaction you did, Steve. While not a lawyer, I read many, many loan and legal documents as a banker. In a whole lot of cases, I needed the assistance of our lawyers to explain the meaning of terms, the inter-relationship between sections or how existing law impacts on the content of the document I was reviewing. In many instances, about the best I could do alone is prepare a list of questions that I needed help with.

In reading thru HR 3200, in a cursory manner as you did, I find this bill in the same category, except that I don't have a lawyer to lean on. That being the case, I found it interesting that some posters here in the Political Forum listed the meaning of various sections and various pages with such absolute certainty. I went back and read several of the pages they cited and came away with either a question or with an altogether different interpretation.

A whole bunch of people were also aghast that Representative John Dingell said that he saw little benefit for him to read the entire bill. I know that his role was just to introduce the bill that someone else actually wrote and that he was probably being honest. But I found his statement ill-timed and unwise in that he still was listed as the principal sponsor of the bill. One really needs a lawyer to spend the time explaining the bill, it's terms, definitions and interrelationships. Is Dingell a lawyer? Even if he isn't, he's been making laws for a long, long time.

A little over a third of the congressfolk have law degrees. Most who have passed the bar are on "inactive" status at their bars.

If there's that much confusion in understanding the statute, writing the supporting (interpretive) regulations afterwards will be abominable. Once regulations have been put in place, the courts tend to leave them be as agency-expertise documents and give them a lot of deference if challenged. Another good reason to make sure everyone agrees with what the statute's language really means.

[Guest]

And VK,...I would like you to read the page that says the government has electronic access to your bank account and see what your interpretation of that is. Being a banker could you better explain it. Maybe I just don't understand electronic funds transfer from my account to the government.Where is the language describing ETF by the government? I'll re-read it.

I'm not too really excited about the government having ETF authority to charge your checking account. For one thing, they have all the authority they need to seize, freeze or take your accounts as it is, without ETF. I would expect that when I read the proposed bill that the ETF's authorized will almost certainly be by specific government agencies and for very specific and narrow purposes. I'd be surprised if it were otherwise. Being able to obtain payments via ETF is only one step removed from them being able to deduct what they say you owe them from "your money" in the form of Social Security payments, tax refunds, charges to your SSA payments because you made too m much money, etc., etc.

But I will read the language and try to figure out what they're asking for that authority when they never had it before.

[Guest]

Bucco and rtc you are not able to agree because you have different mind sets.

Rtc the left winger comes from the hate bush and hate republicans mind set.

Bucco comes from the mind set that obama is a socialist and capitalists have no possibility of agreeing with the socialist thinkers.

Bucco you are wasting your time trying to convince a hate mind set liberal.

[Guest]

You two are in a hopeless debate.

One of you has a mind set that bush was a liar which is a lie.

The other is a capitalist who will never ever become or ever respect a socialist like obama.

You two cannot find a happy ground when one is filled with hate for bush and republicans while the other with major scorn for socialism.

[Guest]

That's why being a moderate and/or independent is the way to go! Take the best from each side.

[Guest]

Reminds me of the motto, "Lead, follow or get the heck out of the way." A moderate reminds me of a gambler who wants to place his bets in the last quarter of the football game when he thinks he will have a sure thing.

[Guest]

That's why being a moderate and/or independent is the way to go! Take the best from each side.Oh yeah!!

Fiscal conservative, left-leaning on social issues, a defender of the Constitution (even though I don't agree with a few legal interpretations), and committed to listening to different points of view and changing my mind if I hear a better idea.....what could be better?

[Guest]

Oh yeah!!

Fiscal conservative, left-leaning on social issues, a defender of the Constitution (even though I don't agree with a few legal interpretations), and committed to listening to different points of view and changing my mind if I hear a better idea.....what could be better?

The only real difference between us is that I'm centrist on social issues. You and SteveZ are the most articulate people in Political and I always enjoy your posts, whether I agree with them or not.