Grading On The Curve

[Guest]

Is it any wonder that little has gotten done, or is getting done, in Congress? For one I'm really tiring of the political backbiting and sniping going on in Congress on a daily basis. If something is the other party's idea, it's dumb and awful and I won't vote for it. Those elected by the public continue to try to incite their "base" followers to feel the same. Much the same is evident even in this forum. Only occasionally are there productive discussions of issues. More often, it's more of the partisan mud-throwing.

The result is that little is accomplished in Washington that isn't the proposal of one party or the other, depending on which one has the political power. The idea of a bi-partisan approach to solutions simply isn't happening...and hasn't happened in years. Where have all the statesmen gone?

The scary thing is that the politicians are reflecting the feelings of the country. Maybe vice versa, but in a democracy you have to conclude that it starts with the people.

Normally, you would think that public opinion on almost any subject or idea would center on something "in the middle", with a distribution of thoughts, ideas and feelings surrounding some average. But the recent CNN Report Card on the President, the administration and even the media doesn't show any sort of "bell shaped curve". It is a startling bi-modal distribution. It's like the population of the U.S. is becoming in terms of income--lots of people at the ends and fewer in the middle, near the average.

Here's the overall results of the recent CNN poll. I'm sure the participants weren't scientifically selected, but there sure were enough participants (over 300,000 people submitted their votes) to make the results statistically reliable.

I ask this question...

What does it mean when 37% of the people grade what's going on politically with and A or B grade while 36% grade what's going on as F (failed)? If the public is that polarized--and I can't think of an argument that it is not--then what really can we expect from those we elect to represent us?

Is this the way a democracy is supposed to work?

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj316/Villages_Kahuna/CNNPoll-200Days.jpg

[Guest]

Is it any wonder that little has gotten done, or is getting done, in Congress? For one I'm really tiring of the political backbiting and sniping going on in Congress on a daily basis. If something is the other party's idea, it's dumb and awful and I won't vote for it. Those elected by the public continue to try to incite their "base" followers to feel the same. Much the same is evident even in this forum. Only occasionally are there productive discussions of issues. More often, it's more of the partisan mud-throwing.

Funny thing....the democratis pulled that crap for eight years and I don't recall you picking up on it and posting disdain for the practice. Now when someone else's ox is getting gored, it's a problem?

Sorry for the hit and run.....off to a ball game with my grandkids.

[Guest]

....the democratis pulled that crap for eight years and I don't recall you picking up on it and posting disdain for the practice. Now when someone else's ox is getting gored, it's a problem?...Good example of the problem we have as a government and a country. Tell me where I mentioned one party or the other in my post. What's obvious is that you have identified me as a member of the opposition, so anything I might say is either wrong or carries an opposite meaning. Great example of the problem we have as a country.

The ox that's getting gored is OUR ox, all of us. And we seem to be doing it to ourselves.

[Guest]

Whatever sad shape Congress may be in, it's totally thanks to the American voter who keeps putting the same buffoons in office election after election after election after election after election after election etc. The ones we curse the most (regardless of party affiliation) spend longer in Congress 2-years-at-a-time than the best professional athletes ever have as careers, and a lot longer than most Americans ever do with the same employer.

So, let's fix Congress this time and in 2010 fire them all in the House and the 1/3rd of the Senate up for election then. If we don't, there should be no complaint.

And this is all of them, no matter what the party affiliation. For those dyed-in-the-wool Republicans or Democrats, the "change" can occur by dumping the incumbent come the primary election.

[Guest]

You have to understand that Congress is led by people from ultra safe districts, and have no fear of losing their seats. The only way they can lose power is to lose their majorities. That could well happen in 2010, at least in the house, if the leaders continue down this path of expansionist government.

[Guest]

The dumping of incumbents can only happen in certain states. In Massachusetts, drunks, cheats and vehicle homicides will not get an incumbent removed.

[Guest]

Is it any wonder that little has gotten done, or is getting done, in Congress? For one I'm really tiring of the political backbiting and sniping going on in Congress on a daily basis. If something is the other party's idea, it's dumb and awful and I won't vote for it. Those elected by the public continue to try to incite their "base" followers to feel the same. Much the same is evident even in this forum. Only occasionally are there productive discussions of issues. More often, it's more of the partisan mud-throwing.

Really??? And how long has this been going on???

[Guest]

Whatever sad shape Congress may be in, it's totally thanks to the American voter who keeps putting the same buffoons in office election after election after election...let's fix Congress this time and in 2010 fire them all in the House and the 1/3rd of the Senate...If we don't, there should be no complaint.Hear, hear!

But I fear that many will either vote by party only, believing that candidates of "their" party stand for principles not practiced for years. Or be sucked by the inflammatory and negative advertising that is certain to be a big part of the upcoming campaign.

The only certain strategy is to NEVER vote for an incumbent, regardless of their party. If Congress won't enact term limits, WE CAN!

[Guest]

...Congress is led by people from ultra safe districts, and have no fear of losing their seats...Florida's Fifth District will be a good test in 2010.

Florida's 5th Congressional District comprises all of Citrus County, Hernando County, and Sumter County, most of Lake County, Levy County, and Pasco County, and portions of Marion County and Polk County, including The Villages. The district includes northern exurbs of Tampa and western exurbs of Orlando within the high-growth Interstate 4 Corridor. Brooksville Republican Ginny Brown-Waite has represented Florida's 5th Congressional District since 2003.

In 2002, Ginny Brown-Waite won election over incumbent Karen Thurman by a narrow margin. In 2004, Brown-Waite won reelection over Hernando County attorney and Naval Reservist Robert Whittel with 66% of the vote. In 2006, she cruised to re-election for a third full term against poorly funded challenger John Russell with 59% of the vote.

While I probably agree with more of Ginny Brown-Waite's positions and votes than I almost certainly will for whomever her opponent might be, I will vote for the opponent. I hate the idea that if the opponent wins, it might further expand the Democratic majority, but three terms is enough in my opinion. Besides, I have great reservations over the amount of campaign contributions (over $600,000 from banks, investment banks and insurance companies last year) Mrs. Brown-Waite has seen fit to accept. Six years is enough, particularly for a grandmother from Brooksville who is getting very, very wealthy as the result of her position on Barney Frank's Finance Committee.

We can actually pick the best candidate in the for Mel Martinez Senate seat, that election happening in 2010. And like Brown-Waite, I'll vote for whomever the opponent of Senator Bill Nelson will be, when he runs again in 2012. Two terms is plenty for any Senator.

[Guest]

Is it any wonder that little has gotten done, or is getting done, in Congress? For one I'm really tiring of the political backbiting and sniping going on in Congress on a daily basis. If something is the other party's idea, it's dumb and awful and I won't vote for it. Those elected by the public continue to try to incite their "base" followers to feel the same. Much the same is evident even in this forum. Only occasionally are there productive discussions of issues. More often, it's more of the partisan mud-throwing.

The result is that little is accomplished in Washington that isn't the proposal of one party or the other, depending on which one has the political power. The idea of a bi-partisan approach to solutions simply isn't happening...and hasn't happened in years. Where have all the statesmen gone?

The scary thing is that the politicians are reflecting the feelings of the country. Maybe vice versa, but in a democracy you have to conclude that it starts with the people.

Normally, you would think that public opinion on almost any subject or idea would center on something "in the middle", with a distribution of thoughts, ideas and feelings surrounding some average. But the recent CNN Report Card on the President, the administration and even the media doesn't show any sort of "bell shaped curve". It is a startling bi-modal distribution. It's like the population of the U.S. is becoming in terms of income--lots of people at the ends and fewer in the middle, near the average.

Here's the overall results of the recent CNN poll. I'm sure the participants weren't scientifically selected, but there sure were enough participants (over 300,000 people submitted their votes) to make the results statistically reliable.

I ask this question...

What does it mean when 37% of the people grade what's going on politically with and A or B grade while 36% grade what's going on as F (failed)? If the public is that polarized--and I can't think of an argument that it is not--then what really can we expect from those we elect to represent us?

Is this the way a democracy is supposed to work?

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj316/Villages_Kahuna/CNNPoll-200Days.jpg

VK...I agree with your post !!!

However, I also agree with CABO !!!

I believe what I believe about the current President, but it has absolutely nothing to do with party politics in anyway !

There has always been a sort of divide, but in my opinion, the election of 2000 simply pushed the divide and partisianship "over the top"

Now, combine that with the way we are presented with "news" in this country due to the electronic age in which we live. If you watch our so called "news channels" that influence the thinking of the public it is SPIN and not news. It is predictable to a chilling degree what you will find on the cable "news" channels and the press which used to be an estate we could believe in seems to have taken sides to a degree so you KNOW in advance what you will hear depending on where you tune ! This applies to right and left in equal parts ! "Stars" of the cable channels openly campaign, and many folks believe it to be news !

Our elected officials have learned how to use the electronice medium and there are thousands of people who flood the internet hourly or even sooner with SPIN for whatever side has enlisted them with no regard to facts. This flooding of SPIN is all we know.

STEVE is correct that the voter is the culprit and the old adage of "the leadership you have is a direct reflection of those electing them applies" but in defense of the voters, they have no access to simple facts !

We are weakening ourselves so badly with what is happening, not only domestically but internationallly.

I am sad that I agree with the notion of simply voting against an incumbent.

That flies in the face of every principal I have and it is unfair I am sure but it is like we need a cleansing of all new people and give them a chance to do it right.

There are serious distortions about the health care plan (on both sides)....there were serious distortions about the stimulus (on both sides)...there were serious distortions about the Iraq war (on both sides), etc. It is so sad and scary that on such serious issues we are reduced to plain and simple partisan politics.

I am now so worried about this country, and from the WH to Congress we do not have the "parts" to fix it in anyway.

Sorry for the rant....I do not do well in this medium but suffice to say as a young man (I am 70) I never ever could have imagined my country being reduced to what it has become the last few years !

[Guest]

Florida's Fifth District will be a good test in 2010.

Florida's 5th Congressional District comprises all of Citrus County, Hernando County, and Sumter County, most of Lake County, Levy County, and Pasco County, and portions of Marion County and Polk County, including The Villages. The district includes northern exurbs of Tampa and western exurbs of Orlando within the high-growth Interstate 4 Corridor. Brooksville Republican Ginny Brown-Waite has represented Florida's 5th Congressional District since 2003.

In 2002, Ginny Brown-Waite won election over incumbent Karen Thurman by a narrow margin. In 2004, Brown-Waite won reelection over Hernando County attorney and Naval Reservist Robert Whittel with 66% of the vote. In 2006, she cruised to re-election for a third full term against poorly funded challenger John Russell with 59% of the vote.

While I probably agree with more of Ginny Brown-Waite's positions and votes than I almost certainly will for whomever her opponent might be, I will vote for the opponent. I hate the idea that if the opponent wins, it might further expand the Democratic majority, but three terms is enough in my opinion. Besides, I have great reservations over the amount of campaign contributions (over $600,000 from banks, investment banks and insurance companies last year) Mrs. Brown-Waite has seen fit to accept. Six years is enough, particularly for a grandmother from Brooksville who is getting very, very wealthy as the result of her position on Barney Frank's Finance Committee.

We can actually pick the best candidate in the for Mel Martinez Senate seat, that election happening in 2010. And like Brown-Waite, I'll vote for whomever the opponent of Senator Bill Nelson will be, when he runs again in 2012. Two terms is plenty for any Senator.

Ms. Brown-Waite is a good example, in that she indeed may run unopposed in the primary. I have no problem with her overall voting record, but still believe the reason a representative's term is only two years and a senator's at six years is to keep the positions from becoming a lifetime career. That's what makes it a Congress instead of a House of Lords.

Yes, my vote is going to be cast using the following method: ignore incumbent, and them choose between/among any other candidates on ballot, regardless of party affiliation. It starts here!

[Guest]

.... ignore incumbent, and them choose between/among any other candidates on ballot, regardless of party affiliation. It starts here!...If only the rest of the country would do the same.

That same CNN poll that was the basis of this thread showed the over 300,000 respondents grading Congress as F (FAILED!). Here's the report card...

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj316/Villages_Kahuna/Congress.jpg

The feelings of the American public is clear. Sufficiently clear to suggest that the voting strategy that both you and I have suggested, Steve, would result in some eye-opening changes in Washington.

But that's more than a year before the mid-term elections. Plenty of time for the campaign advisors, all the campaign money, all the Section 527 ads that will be placed by the special interest groups, and most importantly the unwillingness of the electorate to change from their habit of simply voting for the same party year after year after year to take effect.

We're starting with enough of a plurality to really make some changes in Congress in 2010. Let's hope that people aren't influenced to make the mistake of returning the same old faces to Congress again in the coming mid-term elections. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[Guest]

Kahuna, Steve....while your "kick 'em all out" plan has significant appeal to angry Americans, I fear the net result will only expand and benefit the insidious, growing tyranny now inhabiting the White House and the halls of Congress. Do you really believe that the unholy alliance of UNIONS, GREENIES who want to dictate environmental policy and the SOCIAL JUSTICE minions who want to see wealth distribution and "free money" through usurious taxation will subscribe to your plan and "vote 'em out"? Do you believe that ACORN, who now receives billions in tax payer dollars to "community organize" democratic votes, will say, "Cool.....let's jump on board with Kahuna and Steve and get rid of those democratic guys that gave us billions." I fear the unintended consequence of your strategy, by accident or design, would be tantamount to victory for the oppressors by virtue of the time tested "divide and conquer" strategy while expanding and growing the liberal, socialist democrat base.

Ginny Brown-Waite stood up in Congress and stated she was opposed to Congress's Health Plan because it negatively impacted seniors. She advocates for second amendment rights and believes that government has gotten too big. She is for tax cuts not tax hikes and against "cap and trade" otherwise known as "cap and tax".......and I should cast my vote against her because...?

Do I sense that a double team is about to occur?

[Guest]

In the spirit of the current administrations eyes and ears that could be considered an orchestrated effort....or a managed response....or _ _ ? _ _....

oh that was a different thread!

But isn't an election an orchestrated event?

I too am stead fastly committed to vote against incumbents....100%.....the odds are the mix will come out close to the same.

The real issue is with the majority who vote who have no idea what or who the election is about except for pulling the party handle....that is why the bums are still in there....surely nobody would vote for them on purpose......would they?

btk

[Guest]

Proposed new White House initiative...trade in bumper stickers

From Question Authority



To Celebrate Conformity

[Guest]

[QUOTE=Villages Kahuna;219214]Is it any wonder that little has gotten done, or is getting done, in Congress? For one I'm really tiring of the political backbiting and sniping going on in Congress on a daily basis. If something is the other party's idea, it's dumb and awful and I won't vote for it. Those elected by the public continue to try to incite their "base" followers to feel the same. Much the same is evident even in this forum. Only occasionally are there productive discussions of issues. More often, it's more of the partisan mud-throwing.

Why do you feel that it is "party lines" that drive peoples decisions on issues? Many of us draw our opinions from life experiences and "common sense" knowledge. I've known plenty of people that are "learned" folk, but don't possess an iota of common sense.

We are capable of making up our own minds on issues independent of one party or the other. Freedom to choose is not a party line position, but a result of how we as individuals view ourselves and the issues involving our lives. Being fiscally and socially conservative does not make someone Republican, only conservative in nature. Likewise, fiscal and social liberalism doesn't mean a label of Democrat.

[Guest]

Do you really believe that the unholy alliance of UNIONS, GREENIES who want to dictate environmental policy and the SOCIAL JUSTICE minions who want to see wealth distribution and "free money" through usurious taxation will subscribe to your plan and "vote 'em out"? Do you believe that ACORN, who now receives billions in tax payer dollars to "community organize" democratic votes, will say, "Cool.....let's jump on board with Kahuna and Steve and get rid of those democratic guys that gave us billions."...Ginny Brown-Waite stood up in Congress and stated she was opposed to Congress's Health Plan because it negatively impacted seniors. She advocates for second amendment rights and believes that government has gotten too big. She is for tax cuts not tax hikes and against "cap and trade" otherwise known as "cap and tax".......and I should cast my vote against her because...?

We are capable of making up our own minds on issues independent of one party or the other. Freedom to choose is not a party line position, but a result of how we as individuals view ourselves and the issues involving our lives. Being fiscally and socially conservative does not make someone Republican, only conservative in nature. Likewise, fiscal and social liberalism doesn't mean a label of Democrat.

Both of the comments you make demonstrate the need for such a simplistic approach as vote out the incumbents. Unless the result of the mid-term elections is to simply replace the entire House and one-third of the Senate, we'll still be debating the partisan, dysfunctional governance that we have now in years to come.

As has been documented so many times, almost everyone who complains about the actions of the Congress does so with the caveat, "except for my Congressperson or Senator--they're OK. It's the others that are screwed up." Or, those that argue that they are independent enough to vote for the best candidate regardless of party, but when the curtains of the voting booth close, simply can't draw themselves to vote for the candidate from "that other party".

If the electorate tries to re-form the Congress by "building on the base of 'their' party", we won't get anywhere. At least we won't get anywhere soon. While the Democrats swept the GOP from power in the 2006 mid-term elections, there is little chance in my opinion, that the GOP can recover by attempting to keep it's existing Congressional seats and building on them by winning more seats back. It's been well documented by political scientists and practitioners far smarter and more experienced than me that the GOP has little chance of expanding it's role in government by continuing to rely on a base that is concentrated by age, religion, region, ethnicity and education. The GOP has to "expand the tent" and be more inclusive in order to succeed. They're making no move whatsoever to do that.

So, I'm left with the conclusion that the only way to achieve a quicker change in our government is to simply replace ALL that are there now. Throw out the incumbents, as Steve and I have suggested. I can see no other way that will work, certainly not beginning from the position that "my members of Congress and my party are OK, it's the other guys that are the cause of our problems".

I can only make the following arguments for simplifying the voting process and expelling the incumbents in upcoming elections.

The shift in party makeup in the Congress would be instantaneous.
Having said that the party makeup would shift, the political power of the parties would be dramatically diluted. They would have no solid base of long-held seats to rely on. They would be confused and be forced to re-create party organizations from the beginning.
If the Congress is changed in 2010, as it could be, it would eradicate any political influence that the White House might have on those bodies.
It would thoroughly confuse the special interest lobbyists. They too would lose their base of loyal Congressional constituents always willing to do their bidding in exchange for campaign contributions. Like the party leaderships, they too would have to "start over" in creating a loyal and submissive following who they can easily manipulate.
I'm sure there are more arguments for how a complete turnover of our representation might be an improvement over what we are and have experienced in our governance. Maybe others can add to the list.

In the meantime, the Congress could operate based on thought, debate and statesmanship instead of raw partisan politics fueled by special interest money. That would be a good thing. That would probably be more along the lines of what the framers of the Constitution intended, instead of what we're experiencing now.

But I'm sure of one thing, unless there is a massive turnover of seats in the U.S. House of Representatives and in the third of the Senate seats up for election, this forum will be aruing and debating and biting one another's backs about the same things 2-3-4-5 years from now, as they are today.

[Guest]

Why do you feel that it is "party lines" that drive peoples decisions on issues? Many of us draw our opinions from life experiences and "common sense" knowledge. I've known plenty of people that are "learned" folk, but don't possess an iota of common sense.

We are capable of making up our own minds on issues independent of one party or the other. Freedom to choose is not a party line position, but a result of how we as individuals view ourselves and the issues involving our lives. Being fiscally and socially conservative does not make someone Republican, only conservative in nature. Likewise, fiscal and social liberalism doesn't mean a label of Democrat.[/QUOTE]

Very well stated,gnu. I also feel that the boomers are still a force to be reckoned with. If the republicans can get back the millions of votes lost because of the fiscal and immigration issues, you could see a big shift in 2010.
Also the millions of naive young voters who are now more savvy could make a difference.The millions of voters who thought they were pulling the trigger for a centrist.(Obama) have had a rude awakening.
I am convinced to stay with conservative issues and avoid the temptation of diluting our values to attract votes is wrong. Ronald Reagan didn't compromise his values to get votes and he took almost every state in the union.(or was it every state?)

[Guest]

Kahuna, Steve....while your "kick 'em all out" plan has significant appeal to angry Americans, I fear the net result will only expand and benefit the insidious, growing tyranny now inhabiting the White House and the halls of Congress. Do you really believe that the unholy alliance of UNIONS, GREENIES who want to dictate environmental policy and the SOCIAL JUSTICE minions who want to see wealth distribution and "free money" through usurious taxation will subscribe to your plan and "vote 'em out"? Do you believe that ACORN, who now receives billions in tax payer dollars to "community organize" democratic votes, will say, "Cool.....let's jump on board with Kahuna and Steve and get rid of those democratic guys that gave us billions." I fear the unintended consequence of your strategy, by accident or design, would be tantamount to victory for the oppressors by virtue of the time tested "divide and conquer" strategy while expanding and growing the liberal, socialist democrat base.

Ginny Brown-Waite stood up in Congress and stated she was opposed to Congress's Health Plan because it negatively impacted seniors. She advocates for second amendment rights and believes that government has gotten too big. She is for tax cuts not tax hikes and against "cap and trade" otherwise known as "cap and tax".......and I should cast my vote against her because...?

Do I sense that a double team is about to occur?

Ms. Brown-Waite is an honorable person. I just don't want her to have the job as representative indefinitely.

I'll concede that most of the representatives start out with the best of intentions. However, there comes a time when it stops being a public calling and it changes to "it's my job, career and re-election is more important than anything." We've all seen it happen, that after a term or two, the representative becomes more of a DC fixture than a local one, and sees themselves more a member of the DC society than their district's. I just got back from 5 years in DC and was appalled by how I saw congressfolk live there than at "home." When congressfolk own $500K-$2Million homes/condos in the DC area, that should be a sign they've been there too long.

The Founding Fathers made being a representative a 2-year position, not a 20-year one. When congressfolk stay in office so long on 2 or 6 year positions that they need a retirement program, isn't that evidence enough that the seats need new bottoms in them at least every other term?

I thank Ms. Brown-Waite for her service, but I do not see having a "career representative" who needs a retirement program for service a necessity for this district. For the size of this congressional district, there must be others who also are qualified and willing to serve for a term or two, and then rejoin local society.

To me, the honorable thing for Ms. Brown-Waite to do is step aside in 2010, and nothing stops her from endorsing and campaigning for her party's candidate for this congressional seat. Anything less is having another career representative to join the likes of all those we complain about.