Concealed carry and mental health

[Allegiance]

Florida lawmaker wants mental health evaluations for conceal-carry applicants | Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article133380604.html)

I think it's a great idea.

[Rockyrd]

Florida lawmaker wants mental health evaluations for conceal-carry applicants | Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article133380604.html)

I think it's a great idea.

"President Trump signed a measure into law Tuesday that rescinds an Obama-era rule aimed at blocking gun sales to certain mentally ill people.

The GOP-majority Senate passed the bill by a 57-43 margin earlier this month, following a House vote to overturn the rule.

The Obama administration policy "would have required the Social Security Administration to report the records of some mentally ill beneficiaries to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System," as The Two-Way has reported. "Those who have been deemed mentally incapable of managing their financial affairs — roughly 75,000 people — would have been affected by the rule."

It was strongly opposed by the National Rifle Association, and as NPR's Jessica Taylor reported, "Republicans argued it infringed upon Second Amendment rights by denying due process."

Trump Repeals Rule Designed To Block Gun Sales To Certain Mentally Ill People : The Two-Way : NPR (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/28/517799119/trump-repeals-rule-designed-to-block-gun-sales-to-certain-mentally-ill-people)

[Allegiance]

Most gun owners are for backround checks that include mental health.

It's the lawyers representing the wackadoodles that object. And the nra of course.

[Taltarzac725]

"President Trump signed a measure into law Tuesday that rescinds an Obama-era rule aimed at blocking gun sales to certain mentally ill people.

The GOP-majority Senate passed the bill by a 57-43 margin earlier this month, following a House vote to overturn the rule.

The Obama administration policy "would have required the Social Security Administration to report the records of some mentally ill beneficiaries to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System," as The Two-Way has reported. "Those who have been deemed mentally incapable of managing their financial affairs — roughly 75,000 people — would have been affected by the rule."

It was strongly opposed by the National Rifle Association, and as NPR's Jessica Taylor reported, "Republicans argued it infringed upon Second Amendment rights by denying due process."

Trump Repeals Rule Designed To Block Gun Sales To Certain Mentally Ill People : The Two-Way : NPR (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/28/517799119/trump-repeals-rule-designed-to-block-gun-sales-to-certain-mentally-ill-people)

There is a problem where people use the label of "mentally ill" for social engineering though. Which Donald Trump to his credit recognizes. This happens a lot among the wealthy I expect as they try to get control of assets left in wills. And politicians use it too. The 25th Amendment for instance. What is the 25th Amendment? Constitutional scholars say talk is 'premature,' unrealistic - CNNPolitics.com (http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/03/politics/what-is-the-25th-amendment-donald-trump/index.html) Some are trying to use it against Trump which seems a little like abusing the US Constitution and this would create a very dangerous precedent when someone is trying to change things. The powers-that-be would just call the person crazy.

[dbussone]

"President Trump signed a measure into law Tuesday that rescinds an Obama-era rule aimed at blocking gun sales to certain mentally ill people.



The GOP-majority Senate passed the bill by a 57-43 margin earlier this month, following a House vote to overturn the rule.



The Obama administration policy "would have required the Social Security Administration to report the records of some mentally ill beneficiaries to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System," as The Two-Way has reported. "Those who have been deemed mentally incapable of managing their financial affairs — roughly 75,000 people — would have been affected by the rule."



It was strongly opposed by the National Rifle Association, and as NPR's Jessica Taylor reported, "Republicans argued it infringed upon Second Amendment rights by denying due process."



Trump Repeals Rule Designed To Block Gun Sales To Certain Mentally Ill People : The Two-Way : NPR (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/28/517799119/trump-repeals-rule-designed-to-block-gun-sales-to-certain-mentally-ill-people)



What data or qualifications does the SSA possess that permits them to determine someone's mental health status?

The Sandy Hook shooting has no bearing on this. I don't believe he received SS or SSI, so how was SSA supposed to report him?

Just more intrusion into our privacy by an out of control government

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[Rockyrd]

What data or qualifications does the SSA possess that permits them to determine someone's mental health status?

The Sandy Hook shooting has no bearing on this. I don't believe he received SS or SSI, so how was SSA supposed to report him?

Just more intrusion into our privacy by an out of control government

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First it was "selected" people, NOT ALL.

And if you oppose this, you certainly oppose Trump having the government learn so much more personal in his little political stunt on voter fraud.

[Taltarzac725]

What data or qualifications does the SSA possess that permits them to determine someone's mental health status?

The Sandy Hook shooting has no bearing on this. I don't believe he received SS or SSI, so how was SSA supposed to report him?

Just more intrusion into our privacy by an out of control government

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This would allow for quite a bit of abuse of power if it got in the wrong hands. And psychology and psychiatry are more art than science. These disciplines have been often used by autocratic governments to quell dissent or just to steal property of those defined by them as "mentally ill". Not just governments but unethical cliques of people who want to protect their status.

[Rockyrd]

This would allow for quite a bit of abuse of power if it got in the wrong hands. And psychology and psychiatry are more art than science. These disciplines have been often used by autocratic governments to quell dissent or just to steal property of those defined by them as "mentally ill".

And what our President wants states to give up based on NOTHING in his phony voting survey is so, so much more than this.

[dbussone]

First it was "selected" people, NOT ALL.



And if you oppose this, you certainly oppose Trump having the government learn so much more personal in his little political stunt on voter fraud.



DEFLECTION. If the SSA is to report these individuals where will they get the info?


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[wjboyer1]

70089

[Rockyrd]

DEFLECTION. If the SSA is to report these individuals where will they get the info?


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No deflections intended but your fury in responding is noted.

I am simply pointing out that it was selective people who have already been declared mentally in competent to handle their own affairs, of which SSA would have a record. Total involved is less than 100,000 people, who have already been judged mentally deficient to handle affairs, but under current law could get a permit. That was over turned by Trump. They now can get a gun permit

Comparing that to the voter fraud commission which in itself is a fraud, that information is tame.

A few notes on the voter fraud where they want so much personal information...

,.....44 states thus far have refused to comply

......The man running this charade is a guy who has been active in this cause in Kansas for years and years. He is contraverial at best, and even though he was given authority in Kansas 2 years ago.....he has filed charges in 9 cases.....he got 6 convictions all of them were elderly citizens who were unaware of wrong doing, and would not have been stopped with any kind of voter id law (they, all 6 were double voting)

[dbussone]

No deflections intended but your fury in responding is noted.

I am simply pointing out that it was selective people who have already been declared mentally in competent to handle their own affairs, of which SSA would have a record. Total involved is less than 100,000 people, who have already been judged mentally deficient to handle affairs, but under current law could get a permit. That was over turned by Trump. They now can get a gun permit

Comparing that to the voter fraud commission which in itself is a fraud, that information is tame.

A few notes on the voter fraud where they want so much personal information...

,.....44 states thus far have refused to comply

......The man running this charade is a guy who has been active in this cause in Kansas for years and years. He is contraverial at best, and even though he was given authority in Kansas 2 years ago.....he has filed charges in 9 cases.....he got 6 convictions all of them were elderly citizens who were unaware of wrong doing, and would not have been stopped with any kind of voter id law (they, all 6 were double voting)



Fury? Once again you insert your thoughts to an extremely simple and unemotional response. I'll try again. You quote a number of supposed individuals (100,000) about whom the SSA has data that those individuals are mentally deficient. As such you and others say they should not access firearms. I don't believe they should either....if their mental health status is accurate.

My question was, where does the SSA acquire this data? Until you can answer that question you have no idea whether there are 100,000 people or 1 person who appropriately belong in the specific grouping you are talking about.


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[Rockyrd]

Fury? Once again you insert your thoughts to an extremely simple and unemotional response. I'll try again. You quote a number of supposed individuals (100,000) about whom the SSA has data that those individuals are mentally deficient. As such you and others say they should not access firearms. I don't believe they should either....if their mental health status is accurate.

My question was, where does the SSA acquire this data? Until you can answer that question you have no idea whether there are 100,000 people or 1 person who appropriately belong in the specific grouping you are talking about.


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I assume, applying common sense, that the SSA would know of anyone who has legally been found incapable of handling their finances (SOCIAL SECURITY WOULD NEED TO KNOW THAT FOR DISABILITY AND SS CHECKS) that they get it from their own files which were notified and tagged by law after a legal hearing to note these folks incapable.

READING does wonders for lack of knowledge...

"WASHINGTON —The House of Representatives approved its first effort of the new Congress to roll back gun regulations, voting to overturn a rule that would bar gun ownership by some who have been deemed mentally impaired by the Social Security Administration.

The House voted 235-180 largely along party lines Thursday to repeal an Obama-era rule requiring the Social Security Administration to send records of some beneficiaries to the federal firearms background check system after they’ve been deemed mentally incapable of managing their financial affairs.

The rule, when implemented, would affect about 75,000 recipients of disability insurance and supplemental insurance income who require a representative to manage their benefits because of a disabling mental disorder, ranging from anxiety to schizophrenia. It applies to those between age 18 and full retirement age.

House votes to strike rule banning guns for some deemed mentally impaired (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/02/02/house-votes-strike-rule-banning-guns-some-deemed-mentally-impaired/97299756/)

[dbussone]

I assume, applying common sense, that the SSA would know of anyone who has legally been found incapable of handling their finances (SOCIAL SECURITY WOULD NEED TO KNOW THAT FOR DISABILITY AND SS CHECKS) that they get it from their own files which were notified and tagged by law after a legal hearing to note these folks incapable.



READING does wonders for lack of knowledge...



"WASHINGTON —The House of Representatives approved its first effort of the new Congress to roll back gun regulations, voting to overturn a rule that would bar gun ownership by some who have been deemed mentally impaired by the Social Security Administration.



The House voted 235-180 largely along party lines Thursday to repeal an Obama-era rule requiring the Social Security Administration to send records of some beneficiaries to the federal firearms background check system after they’ve been deemed mentally incapable of managing their financial affairs.



The rule, when implemented, would affect about 75,000 recipients of disability insurance and supplemental insurance income who require a representative to manage their benefits because of a disabling mental disorder, ranging from anxiety to schizophrenia. It applies to those between age 18 and full retirement age.



House votes to strike rule banning guns for some deemed mentally impaired (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/02/02/house-votes-strike-rule-banning-guns-some-deemed-mentally-impaired/97299756/)



It is the responsibility of individual states to report adjudicated cases of individuals with mental health issues to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). The data is NOT reported to the SSA. There is a second issue as well. For whatever reasons, many states do not participate in reporting.

States Aren't Submitting Records To Gun Database : NPR (http://www.npr.org/2012/08/16/158932528/states-arent-submitting-records-to-gun-database)

I copied this from a source you would be more likely to accept.

To me, this is a major reason why I question the appropriateness of the SSA collecting data. Why would they be any more successful than the NCIS system. It would also duplicate something the Feds already do. Why do something twice?


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[Taltarzac725]

It is the responsibility of individual states to report adjudicated cases of individuals with mental health issues to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). The data is NOT reported to the SSA. There is a second issue as well. For whatever reasons, many states do not participate in reporting.

States Aren't Submitting Records To Gun Database : NPR (http://www.npr.org/2012/08/16/158932528/states-arent-submitting-records-to-gun-database)

I copied this from a source you would be more likely to accept.

To me, this is a major reason why I question the appropriateness of the SSA collecting data. Why would they be any more successful than the NCIS system. It would also duplicate something the Feds already do. Why do something twice?


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There is too much room for error here. And also corruption, hacking, or whatever.

They should have limitations on the mentally ill getting weapons but it should be very much judge driven and not legislative driven. The judge could look at the records of that individual person. The Colorado movie theater shooter for instance should not have been allowed anywhere near guns. James Holmes (mass murderer) - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Holmes_(mass_murderer))

[dbussone]

There is too much room for error here. And also corruption, hacking, or whatever.

They should have limitations on the mentally ill getting weapons but it should be very much judge driven and not legislative driven. The judge could look at the records of that individual person. The Colorado movie theater shooter for instance should not have been allowed anywhere near guns. James Holmes (mass murderer) - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Holmes_(mass_murderer))



But then how would the Fed database, NICS, be useful? That is the database gun dealers check before a gun is sold. In addition it is a source checked by the FBI, when concealed weapon permits are under review by the states.

If the individual has to be adjudicated, as required, isn't this the same as a judge making the decision?


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[Taltarzac725]

But then how would the Fed database, NICS, be useful? That is the database gun dealers check before a gun is sold. In addition it is a source checked by the FBI, when concealed weapon permits are under review by the states.


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There are a huge number of people who have been mentally ill at one time or another and some probably fake it for attention or to claim disability payments.

Judges could put in some kind of a block into the Federal database for those that should not be able to buy guns based on the history of a person. Still very imperfect as there was that former law enforcement officer near Tampa who shot a man because he threw popcorn at him. Movie theater shooting: Judge denies 'stand your ground' defense - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/10/us/stand-your-ground-movie-trial/index.html) That hardly sounds rational.

[dbussone]

There are a huge number of people who have been mentally ill at one time or another and some probably fake it for attention or to claim disability payments.

Judges could put in some kind of a block into the Federal database for those that should not be able to buy guns based on the history of a person. Still very imperfect as there was that former law enforcement officer near Tampa who shot a man because he threw popcorn at him. Movie theater shooting: Judge denies 'stand your ground' defense - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/10/us/stand-your-ground-movie-trial/index.html) That hardly sounds rational.



I believe that for those who voluntarily enter mental health treatment, they are not covered by the regulation. The reg requires the reporting of individuals who have been adjudicated as mentally ill.


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[graciegirl]

70089

I guessed the writer of each post correctly. Am I good or what?

[dbussone]

I guessed the writer of each post correctly. Am I good or what?



You are good.


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[MDLNB]

Ok, first off lets put the mental illness evaluation to rest. Mental illness is a judgement call. A person suffering from grief is considered to be suffering from a form of mental illness. That does not make them dangerous. The mental illness idea is just a ploy to slow down issuance of permits. And permits are only good for those that abide by some state or federal law. Many guns are passed down in families or even just sold at yard sales, garage sales etc. Background checks are not performed. At gun shows, background checks are done. At least all the gun shows I have been to. To be deemed mentally ill, you have to have someone make a judgement call. How many shootings do you suppose have been done by the mentally ill? Or, someone that would have been deemed mentally ill when he purchased the weapon? The mental illness ploy is just a facade to hinder gun sales, that's all.

Now, on the other hand, take this into consideration. I am going to make a bold statement that is sure to produce an argument. Most-MOST shootings are enabled by GUN CONTROL LAWS. Yep, if you look at the crime scenes, other than drive by shootings and gang related shootings, almost all shootings are done where there is gun control. Schools, bars, work place, movie theaters, college campus, etc. All places where guns are forbidden. Mass shootings could have been limited IF there were less gun controls in those areas, and someone could have hindered the shooter from a large death toll. Gun Control is the reason for many deaths. AND to go back to drive by shootings, most are in cities where there is strict gun control, such as Chicago, D.C. and NYC. Many drug related shootings are related to felons that illegally own firearms.

You can argue statistics all you wish, like how there are accidental shootings and suicide shootings. Yep, they happen. That's life.

[dbussone]

Ok, first off lets put the mental illness evaluation to rest. Mental illness is a judgement call. A person suffering from grief is considered to be suffering from a form of mental illness. That does not make them dangerous. The mental illness idea is just a ploy to slow down issuance of permits. And permits are only good for those that abide by some state or federal law. Many guns are passed down in families or even just sold at yard sales, garage sales etc. Background checks are not performed. At gun shows, background checks are done. At least all the gun shows I have been to. To be deemed mentally ill, you have to have someone make a judgement call. How many shootings do you suppose have been done by the mentally ill? Or, someone that would have been deemed mentally ill when he purchased the weapon? The mental illness ploy is just a facade to hinder gun sales, that's all.



Now, on the other hand, take this into consideration. I am going to make a bold statement that is sure to produce an argument. Most-MOST shootings are enabled by GUN CONTROL LAWS. Yep, if you look at the crime scenes, other than drive by shootings and gang related shootings, almost all shootings are done where there is gun control. Schools, bars, work place, movie theaters, college campus, etc. All places where guns are forbidden. Mass shootings could have been limited IF there were less gun controls in those areas, and someone could have hindered the shooter from a large death toll. Gun Control is the reason for many deaths. AND to go back to drive by shootings, most are in cities where there is strict gun control, such as Chicago, D.C. and NYC. Many drug related shootings are related to felons that illegally own firearms.



You can argue statistics all you wish, like how there are accidental shootings and suicide shootings. Yep, they happen. That's life.



Agreed. Gun free zones are advertisements for locations of those who may become sitting ducks in a bad situation.


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