You Lie!

[Guest]

It is remarkable to watch Fox news, especially Glen Beck, claim the outrageously false numbers of protesters at the anti-Obama march on September 12. As anyone who knows the size of the National Mall and has attended marches and rallies, it's pretty clear that based on photos and videos, the crowd extended from the base of the Capitol to about 9th St. That's anywhere from 50-100 thousand- a pretty paltry sum for claims of "1.2-2 million." Similarly, those numbers hold for a "2.5 hour" march from the Ellipse, down Pennsylvania Ave, and onto the Mall at 4th St.
To make matters of falsification even more offensive, no one seems to be able to cite the "University" that supposedly analyzed the crowd size, and Fox was even caught showing a photo from a rally 10 years ago. I attended the "March on Washington" for GLBT rights in 1993, where the crowd was estimated by organizers at 1.5 million, and by the Park Service at 1.2 million. The Mall was packed from the Capitol all the way to the Reflecting Pond in front of the Lincloln Memorial- a distance of 1 1/2 miles. The March was so long, that it was still going on after six hours, and even then, most peole had simply given up on the walk, since the numbers had doubled back over themselves.

So why is it so important for the fringe right organziers to claim huge numbers? I'm not saying all the marchers were fringe. Obviously, many believe deeply in their "cause" as much as we did against the Bush Cabal. In fact, we even use the same words- Nazi, Fascists, etc.
When McCarthy was asked "Have you no shame sir!?" At least there was the wiggle room of him actually responding "No, I don't." The lies about the size of this past weekend's rally, and Fox's seemingly unending propagandizing a patently phony number remind me of an episode of "Intervention" in which the subject is in such denial that a "truth squad" of loved ones must intervene.
No one denies that there is a large, energized base of people who are anti-anything that is not their version of what America "is." But why the absolute need to exaggerate, distort and lie about it? Could it be that, in reality, the number of malcontents pretty closely matches the same numbers that thought McCain was too liberal, let alone Obama? In other words, in this Democracy, a minority of the electorate.

Hmm...

P.S. Did you see tonight where Bush was quoted as saying Palin was totally unqualified for running for VP? He asked who she was. "The Governeor of Guam?" I'll let you Palin-Bush lovers choose which one you'll cannabilze on that one. lol

[Guest]

I am encouraged that you Watch Fox News and Glen Beck. At least you are exposed to the truth, whether or not you chose to ignore it is up to you.

Yoda

[Guest]

I am encouraged that you Watch Fox News and Glen Beck. At least you are exposed to the truth, whether or not you chose to ignore it is up to you.

Yoda

:a20: :a20: :a20: :a20:

.

[Guest]

It is remarkable to watch Fox news, especially Glen Beck, claim the outrageously false numbers of protesters at the anti-Obama march on September 12. As anyone who knows the size of the National Mall and has attended marches and rallies, it's pretty clear that based on photos and videos, the crowd extended from the base of the Capitol to about 9th St. That's anywhere from 50-100 thousand- a pretty paltry sum for claims of "1.2-2 million." Similarly, those numbers hold for a "2.5 hour" march from the Ellipse, down Pennsylvania Ave, and onto the Mall at 4th St.
To make matters of falsification even more offensive, no one seems to be able to cite the "University" that supposedly analyzed the crowd size, and Fox was even caught showing a photo from a rally 10 years ago. I attended the "March on Washington" for GLBT rights in 1993, where the crowd was estimated by organizers at 1.5 million, and by the Park Service at 1.2 million. The Mall was packed from the Capitol all the way to the Reflecting Pond in front of the Lincloln Memorial- a distance of 1 1/2 miles. The March was so long, that it was still going on after six hours, and even then, most peole had simply given up on the walk, since the numbers had doubled back over themselves.

So why is it so important for the fringe right organziers to claim huge numbers? I'm not saying all the marchers were fringe. Obviously, many believe deeply in their "cause" as much as we did against the Bush Cabal. In fact, we even use the same words- Nazi, Fascists, etc.
When McCarthy was asked "Have you no shame sir!?" At least there was the wiggle room of him actually responding "No, I don't." The lies about the size of this past weekend's rally, and Fox's seemingly unending propagandizing a patently phony number remind me of an episode of "Intervention" in which the subject is in such denial that a "truth squad" of loved ones must intervene.
No one denies that there is a large, energized base of people who are anti-anything that is not their version of what America "is." But why the absolute need to exaggerate, distort and lie about it? Could it be that, in reality, the number of malcontents pretty closely matches the same numbers that thought McCain was too liberal, let alone Obama? In other words, in this Democracy, a minority of the electorate.

Hmm...

P.S. Did you see tonight where Bush was quoted as saying Palin was totally unqualified for running for VP? He asked who she was. "The Governeor of Guam?" I'll let you Palin-Bush lovers choose which one you'll cannabilze on that one. lol

WOW...impressive...you got Bush, Palin, Beck, McCain, McCarthy, Nazi's. Fascists, AND Fox News all in one post !!!

[Guest]

ptownrob, while you suggest "no one seems to be able to cite the university" who gave the estimate, cursory research suggests differently. That would be the University of Illinois, according to Beck, that made the estimate. You must have missed it. Take your pick from the link below that includes Beck's representation that U. of Illinois did a crowd estimate. It would appear the source, one that you may suggest is bias, gives a fairly objective assessment of the issue.

From my experience, your own estimate is fairly accurate although I would lean more toward the high side of center you suggest.

Thank you for acknowledging that the rally and march actually took place.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:gQV1ClgUb4YJ:www.wnd.com/index.php%3Ffa%3DPAGE.view%26pageId%3D109844+march +on+washington+crowd+estimate+university&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Guest]

Hmm...P.S. Did you see tonight where Bush was quoted as saying Palin was totally unqualified for running for VP? He asked who she was. "The Governeor of Guam?" I'll let you Palin-Bush lovers choose which one you'll cannabilze on that one. lol

It would appear your Bush bashing postscript assertion would have to be classified as "unverifiable" at this time. According to other sources including the ever fair and balanced CNN, the Bush camp has made adamant denials of the alleged quotes you cite. CNN actually offers a compelling rebuttal to the fact pattern ascribed to your source whoever that may be.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/15/first-on-the-ticker-bush-palin-aide-disputes-book-claims/

[Guest]

be the messenger. It also seems to not matter if they are correct or not....just hammer the target.
Most of what the targeted messengers deliver are easily verified with minimal research. For example when Beck lit the fire under the green jobs czar...the targeters went after Beck. All one had to do was google the guys name and page after page of verification of what Beck was presenting was easily available.

As has been born out in this forum for quite some time, and in other forums I participate in and among staunch partisan family and friends...the ever present reluctance for the opposition to stick with presenting facts, figures or justifications. We all understand it is much easier to remain at the emotional level as there are no bounds or accountability. Much easier!

btk

[Guest]

The real question is did Obama "lie"?? Forget what Wilson said, forget the slaming being done by the Democrats to Wilson. Did Obama lie. If he did that is what is important and is being lost in all the hoopla. As I understand it Wilson is on the key committee's on the subject of illegals qualifying for the healthplan and on each vote the Demoncrats voted to kill any enforcement against the illegals using the health care program. In his speech Obama said they could not qualify for healthcare BUT if there is no enforcement then there is nothing to stop them and it would be available to them..
Net: Wilson did not say something that was incorrect and on principle Obama lied. The rest is just an attempt to fry a man who had the courage to call out the truth and force the committee's to put the enforcement back in. The American's should recognize him as a hero. We need more in Gov't to call the word of those, (Republican or Democrat) who lie to the American people.

[Guest]

When I saw the title, "You Lie!", I thought it was about President Carter. My bad. Also, if you pass a law and don't enforce it, it is not a law. Sorta like "don't ask, don't tell".

[Guest]

is in word smithing. They are experts at being able to say something like illegals are not covered....and that is what the bill may well state. But much of the discussion for many weeks on the subject...there is nothing in the law that prohibits them from applying. Back then there was no proof of citizenship in the bill. There were words like, nothing in the bill would/could stop an application....as usual grounds for rejection were all but non existent....it was also discussed they may well be entitled depending on their income level, supplemental help to pay for it.

So they are all right. Until and unless there is comprehensive language the average citizen can understand, the lawmakers WILL walk the side of ambiguity...so they can deliver for their constituents....to a politician the magic is to be able to say yes or no to any question asked....usually the same question.

If any believe illegals will be excluded you no doubt also believe the health care reform will not cost one dime!!

btk

[Guest]

All Wilson did was tell the truth

[Guest]

It will be interesting hear some of the spin on this board when the dems get their clocks cleaned next year. Guess it won't matter how many were there on 9/12. The writing is on the wall.

Funny how some won't believe Beck or Limbaugh but put complete trust in crooked politicians.

[Guest]

You have to admit there is a lot of humor in this..Here we have one of the worse Presidents (Carter) in the history of the US trying to shore up the reputation of a President (Obama) who has numbers dropping at the speed of light and somehow this is to be a good demoncratic strategy. This is a Saturday Night live skit if it wasn't so pathetic. Maybe it being so pathetic would qualify it for a SNL skit. :pepper2:

[Guest]

REH- Definitely a SNL Skit. I love Carter Dearly, but he does have a way of being rather "blunt" sometimes. Does anyone remember the SNL skit of Akroyd doing the 50' Colossal Carter cleaning up 3 Mile Island? LMAO!!

DKL- It's all about the economy- If it's back by 2010, not so sure there will be any uprising. BTW, the Baucus Senate health care bill is a disgrace- All good Democrats should call Sen. Nelson & others to reject it.

All- Did Obama lie? No. Does the definition need tightening? For those of you who are anti-immigration, yes. But again, a majority of Americans are more tolerant about undocumented workers than the posters to this board. You guys seem unwilling to differentiate between undocumented (migrant) workers and illegal immigrants. Millions who work here & whose work is needed here have no desire to become US citizens. $6/hour picking weeds is 100x more than one could make in the poor contries of the world. That's why we don't have an illegal problem with Canada, our other neighbor.

If U.S. Corps weren't so greedy, we could've moved millions of jobs to Mexico instead of China and solved a multitude of problems- but hey, we've got to pay those CEO's millions of $ for something!

BTW- Cost of developing a new oil field or bringing a new drug to market $1.5billion- Sounds like a huge investment doesn't it? But then consider that ONE oil exec or health care exec make $130 million a year & suddenly either one ystem of costs or the other is way out of whack for true capitalism. I'll let you decide!

CABO- Good point about the book quote!! Wonder how the actual truth will ever be known? Maybe Karl Rove will tell the truth to us on FOX!

Bucco- Thanks for the nod to my inclusiveness. Did you see Jon Stewart roast ACORN the other day. All good people are outraged- don't need a (C) next to your name for that!!

[Guest]

It appears that as wrong and rude Joe Wilson was during the President's remarks, he may have "known" something....

"President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage."

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1

[Guest]

The economy won't be back by 2010. In fact it may get worse. There are some numbers that are turning around but unemployment continues to rise and home foreclosures are still on the rise. They don't predict net job increases for up to 10 years. No jobs, no economy, no recovery. Most of what BHO has planned are in fact job killers.

But again, a majority of Americans are more tolerant about undocumented workers than the posters to this board.

Unless you live in CA, AZ, TX and a few other states. They have a little different view of illegals.

[Guest]

I do not like the term LIAR....dont think I have used that word since maybe grade school and especially in regards to politics because politicians are pretty smart with their presentations and those on both sides of the aisle practice this "art".

During the campaign and in the last few months, many folks have actually said to me...."are you calling the President a liar" ? I hestitate and always stutter "no" because that term should be reserved for extreme circumstances.
However, I have always searched as to how to describe what this President has been doing since he began his candidacy, since I am challanged quite a bit with communicating in this medium.

This morning I read an editorial by Charles Krauthammer and he came up with the words I need to use...

"Obama doesn't lie. He implies, he misdirects, he misleads -- so fluidly and incessantly that he risks transmuting eloquence into mere slickness."

"Does He Lie?
By Charles Krauthammer

WASHINGTON -- You lie? No. Barack Obama doesn't lie. He's too subtle for that. He ... well, you judge."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/09/18/does_he_lie_98363.html

He is surely not the first, but maybe it is because he is so good at it !

[Guest]

"Obama doesn't lie. He implies, he misdirects, he misleads -- so fluidly and incessantly that he risks transmuting eloquence into mere slickness."

When he said under $250k and you won't see your taxes go up one dime he was lying. He's told many untruths and like many politicians he is a liar.

And yes, I do call him a liar... flat out.

[Guest]

Will he say what ever the audience wants to hear? Of course...he is a politician.
We he say something different on the same subject, taking the opposite side of an issue as he did the last time he talked about it? Absolutely. He does it CONSISTENTLY!!!.

He told the Europeans in April he was going to continue with the missal shield.
Yesterday he cancelled the program. Did he lie? In his interview yesterday on that subject he said he was not abandoning the concept. He was cancelling the program and was going to replace it with one that is better. Does he lie???

Does he think his audiences are stupid? Yes, based not on what he says but on what he does.

The warning that has been iterated time and again.....do not watch what he says.....watch what he does.

I believe when he is confronted about what he said VS what he did....in his schmooze oblique answer....he will definitely LIE!!

His track record....say one thing and do something else. Deliverable = zippo.

btk

[Guest]

I have no problem in calling him a "liar" as it does fit what use to be used in the 6th grade and it has not lost its meaning. He is a great speaker and in fact probably one of the best in modern history BUT so were and are a number of dictators, past political criminals, past and current dictators that started out with a psuedo demoncracy and the citizens ended up with either a facist or socialistic country. He has succeded in mortgaging the future of our children and probably raising the bar on destroying their future even more. He darn well scares me..

[Guest]

A liar is a person who makes a statement he knows is untrue.

Obama does what all politicians do he makes UNTRUE statements that will not cause him to lose votes but may even get him votes.

The difference is that Obama is the President and as such his lies will be treated as lies as they should.

[Guest]

What I see as a great symbolic portrayal of the ethics of the politicians in office.
There were 6 Senators who voted against cutting off funding to Acorn. Of the 6, two were from Illinois !! Tell me again they were voting what is best for the people. Of course not, they have no eithic, no morals, etc. They could care less what is best for the American people and only what is best for them. This is symbolic of what we have as leaders and backs up the need to throw the bums out..

[Guest]

What I see as a great symbolic portrayal of the ethics of the politicians in office.
There were 6 Senators who voted against cutting off funding to Acorn. Of the 6, two were from Illinois !! Tell me again they were voting what is best for the people. Of course not, they have no eithic, no morals, etc. They could care less what is best for the American people and only what is best for them. This is symbolic of what we have as leaders and backs up the need to throw the bums out..

I believe they were voting as the Chicago city council would vote on this matter. What do you expect from CROOK county.

[Guest]

If you were offered $1 million dollars to find one politician who doesn't lie or bend the truth, you'd still be looking, and looking, and looking. That's my story and I'm going to stick to it!

[Guest]

LIES from a politician is something we expect.

LIES from our President is something that is very dangerous.

[Guest]

LIES from a politician is something we expect.

LIES from our President is something that is very dangerous.

We should have learned that from the Bush Administration! :oops:

[Guest]

We should have learned that from the Bush Administration! :oops:

Now, I have to go back to work on my State of the Union speech. And I worked on it until pretty late last night. But I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false. And I need to go back to work for the American people. Thank you

The Bush Administration?

[Guest]

BBQMAN I am having trouble comming up with one lie Bush told.

I can think of many the Democrats lied about like weapons of mass destruction. Bush never ever lied about these weapons so why do the democrats continue to lie saying he did.

YOUR POST ON THE IS IS GUY WAS GREAT.

[Guest]

BBQMAN I am having trouble comming up with one lie Bush told.

I can think of many the Democrats lied about like weapons of mass destruction. Bush never ever lied about these weapons so why do the democrats continue to lie saying he did.

YOUR POST ON THE IS IS GUY WAS GREAT.

Get Real!!
Mission Accomplished??? I am Surprised Bush didnt trip over his nose.:a20:

[Guest]

Bush got rid of the President of Iraq as he promised and said "mission accomplished" then he said he would continue to fight the terrorists which he did. Your "trip over his nose" statement is a PARTISAN
statement without any logic to it.

[Guest]

Is there ever any logic to liberalism? Uh.. no.

[Guest]

We should have learned that from the Bush Administration! :oops:

Chelsea24, please please please!!! Stop using Bush in every thing you say. Take this personally if you need to but please stop. Anywhere but here you would be run out of town on a rail for 5th grade debating tactics. I have read other things that you write and you seem to bee quite intelligent. Then, when you feel weak, you always bring up Bush. Nobody cares but you and your ilk. He is no longer President. He is no longer relevant. Obama is President. Obama is the leader of the free world. Obama is relevant. DON'T YOU GET THAT?

Respectfully, and I mean it.

Yoda

[Guest]

Ain't it a bitch when you want to forget all about someone that didn't turn out like you thought it should and no one will let that happen? Boy I hate when that happens!

Keep it up Chelsea. Gives that ole "mutual admiration society" that hangs out here something to keep them awake. It's no fun fighting with each other.

[Guest]

How about using some of that Obama/party energy that seems pent up and, as requested, far to often, come forth with some really relevant information and share with those asking why certain programs are supported by y'all.

Some how that ALWAYS appears irrelevant, since it NEVER HAPPENS. Defend the man...yes. Defend the party...absolutely. Bash Bush....like going to church on Sunday (and the other 6 days!!). But hear why you support one program/proposal or another.....and all becomes eerily quiet.
Now just what is it that inhibits adressing a CURRENT issue?

btk

[Guest]

Bush got rid of the President of Iraq as he promised and said "mission accomplished" then he said he would continue to fight the terrorists which he did. Your "trip over his nose" statement is a PARTISAN
statement without any logic to it.

Didn't you get the memo? It ain't politically correct to say "terrorists" anymore. For the life of me, I can't remember what is politically correct, tho. "Terrorists" works for me and is not a slam by me to Muslims. Timothy McVey was not Muslim and he committed an act of pure terrorism. (By the way, my son was supposed to be in Oklahoma City that day at that buiding but the guy he was to be escorting didn't show.)

[Guest]

Chelsea24, please please please!!! Stop using Bush in every thing you say. Take this personally if you need to but please stop. Anywhere but here you would be run out of town on a rail for 5th grade debating tactics. I have read other things that you write and you seem to bee quite intelligent. Then, when you feel weak, you always bring up Bush. Nobody cares but you and your ilk. He is no longer President. He is no longer relevant. Obama is President. Obama is the leader of the free world. Obama is relevant. DON'T YOU GET THAT?

Respectfully, and I mean it.

Yoda

Yoda, I respectfully disagree with you. Our past has always been and will always be relevant. What is it they say? Something like, "Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

It is always important to look backwards at past Presidents, past battles, past empires and so on... this is the only way to learn and move forward. History cannot be swept under the carpet. Past mistakes will always come back to bite you. So, I will mention Bush and Reagan and Clinton and Lincoln and whoever. They are part of the fabric that has made up the United States of America. Good or bad... they are interwoven. Again, I say, both the good and bad. Would you throw away the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence? After all, they are just old pieces of paper. Aren't they still relevant in how we see things and make judgments?

As we evolve as a society, so many of the good things are falling by the wayside, like clear logic, simplicity, respect, caring for our fellow man and just good old-fashioned courtesy. And above all, these are the things we should hang on to. Hold on very tight... because they breath life into our humanity.

BTW, I don't feel weak at all and I'm not sure what my "ilk" is, but I won't apologize for my beliefs as I wouldn't expect you to apologize for yours. So, you can call me all the names you all want to and make snide remarks, if it makes you feel better -- but it doesn't, for one minute, shake my faith and belief in President Obama. They are my personal beliefs and I have a right to them.

[Guest]

I think the point is, it's useless to keep bashing Bush when we have a current President tying to systematically dismantle everything that made America great.

You drop snide remarks here and there about Bush but say absolutely nothing about the one's most culpable for putting us in this mess.

Congress ran the country the last two years and 8 months. Democrats. They also controlled Fannie and Freddie who in fact got the ball rolling with the economic down turn.

When Bush raised hell about it the Democrats did nothing and in fact blocked every action Bush wanted to take to avoid this mess. Yet you totally ignore the facts and blame Bush for everything.

You say nothing about that at all and continually turn back to Bush as though the liberals in congress have absolutely nothing to do with any of it when in fact they had a lot to do with most of it.

Yep, Bush was the President, but who passes the laws? Who spends the money? who votes of all of it? Answer. CONGRESS. Who's been running congress for almost the last three years?

NOT BUSH.

[Guest]

Yoda, I respectfully disagree with you. Our past has always been and will always be relevant. What is it they say? Something like, "Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

It is always important to look backwards at past Presidents, past battles, past empires and so on... this is the only way to learn and move forward. History cannot be swept under the carpet. Past mistakes will always come back to bite you. So, I will mention Bush and Reagan and Clinton and Lincoln and whoever. They are part of the fabric that has made up the United States of America. Good or bad... they are interwoven. Again, I say, both the good and bad. Would you throw away the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence? After all, they are just old pieces of paper. Aren't they still relevant in how we see things and make judgments?

As we evolve as a society, so many of the good things are falling by the wayside, like clear logic, simplicity, respect, caring for our fellow man and just good old-fashioned courtesy. And above all, these are the things we should hang on to. Hold on very tight... because they breath life into our humanity.

BTW, I don't feel weak at all and I'm not sure what my "ilk" is, but I won't apologize for my beliefs as I wouldn't expect you to apologize for yours. So, you can call me all the names you all want to and make snide remarks, if it makes you feel better -- but it doesn't, for one minute, shake my faith and belief in President Obama. They are my personal beliefs and I have a right to them.


This is JUST FROM THIS MORNINGS HEADLINES...it does not include any discussion about how TARP helped the financial situation but the "stimulus" bill was basically an unread pork bill, which our President promised would NEVER happen

"It is lovely to feature in other people's dreams. The problem comes when they wake up. Barack Obama is an eloquent, brainy and likeable man with a fascinating biography. He is not George Bush. Those are great qualities. But they are not enough to lead America, let alone the world. "

"The man who has run nothing more demanding than the Harvard Law Review is beginning to look out of his depth in the world's top job. His credibility is seeping away, and it will require concrete achievements rather than more soaring oratory to recover it."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6210152/President-Barack-Obama-is-beginning-to-look-out-of-his-depth.html

This is from a very well respected man who writes for the Economist and was anything but a fan of Bush as you can tell from the first quote.

THEN, there are a number of stories connected to the ACORN group and how the media just plain ignored it until they could not any longer. I assure you that there is MUCH MUCH MORE to come on this and once they "follow the money" it will really get interesting. Why do you think THIS President was asked about this group that has been around since the 70's ?

Then we have the President appearing on ABC having a bit of "discussion" with George Stephanopoulos and denying the "tax" to be levied with the health proposal he is hawking...

"President Obama didn't make much news on his round of five Sunday talk shows yesterday, with one notable exception. The President revealed a great deal about his philosophy of government and how he defines a tax increase. It turns out the President thinks a health-care tax is not a tax if he thinks the tax is for your own good."

He has mislead, and misinformed so much on this debate on health care, which is not to say that those opposed have not done so also, but he is the President and it is HIS proposal, and HE ran on a platform that flies in the face of his actions !


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204488304574425294029138738.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

I actually agree with much of what you say in your post, but how can you continue to support a man who is doing what he is doing which is NOT what he is saying ?

I think that you were correct in finding fault with him during the primary and while you are correct you have the right to your feelings, they changed dramatically and continue despite so much evidence that this President is everything you hated about Bush PLUS !

[Guest]

I make no excuses for Bush and recognize the outstanding work he did for the US. There is always a group who follow like sheep the naysayer without developing an independent thought. First: I believe the need to get Sadam out of power was based on his potential for controlling the world's oil. He tried to invade his neighbor and it would have been little time before he, Iran, Syria and the rest of the criminal mideast would control the majority of oil reserves. The same ones who are critical of Bush drive to the local station and fill up without paying 10.00 a gallon once a significant source of oil has been cut off. Second: The US has not been under attack since 9/11. Someone had to set up security and it was on Bush's watch that it had to be done. He did it.!! The same ones who fly to NY City and tour with a feeling of security owe it to Bush. Third: The free elections in Iraq = Bush's actions,
Fourth: Bringing Afganistan under control = Bush. Fifth: A strong CIA, FBI, NSA,etc. were the results of Bush's administration. I could go on but I will spare the reader. When I hear the ones who take shots at Bush becuase it is a popular sport on the part of the Liberal's and are entitled to their First Amendment rights it is sad they don't take the same time to look back and understand they have these rights because of strong Presidents like Bush.
If I apply my 1st Amendment Rights I would remind them that we have now have a weaker CIA, FBI, NSA, a Gov't trying to turn the US into a socialistic country.etc. which makes our secuirty a little weaker, we have developed enemies in the Eastern Europe, the identifying of potential terrorists is the results of Bush policies and not the current Administration. We have crooked charity organizations, (ACORN) and they would continue to florish if it were not for someone like Beck, (this will really upset some Liberals for saying that), we have people in Gov't who are Czars that have never been vetted and it turned up one avowed Communist.
I will not go on since it will not convince the Liberals who don't want to be
open minded and the ones who do will see the light sooner rather than later.

[Guest]

Remember the story of CLinton walking in the park where he met an old man with two puppies so young their eyes were still closed.

The old man said they were Democrat puppies.

Bill said tomorrow I will bring Hillary to see these puppies.

The next day Bill and Hillary met the old man who said here are my two Republican puppies.

Bill said wait a minute yesterday you said they were Democrat puppies.

The old man said yes but today they opened their eyes.

[Guest]

As I read these threads, it is clear that the Republicans and the Democrats are to blame for everything. As an Independent, I am in the clear. As my dad used to say, " The country has been going to hell since I was a kid( born in 1908) and we are still here." He is gone now, but it would seem we are still going to hell but we are still here. Step back everybody, would you like to live in another country. This is the best country in the world. We have lived through idiot Republicans and Democrats. We will live thru many more.

[Guest]

particular point in history is that we have always had the ability to get up from the lows dealt to us as we were a growing strong, proud citizenry ready to fight and do what ever it took to defeat what ever it was at hand.

I am not so sure we have the same cross section of people or beliefs anymore.
I cringe at the thought there are way too many in this era of entitlement who will wait and rely on the government to lead us out of the quagmire.....I personally do not believe we have that caliber of leadership in command anywhere in Washington, beginning with Obama. Past wars and andversity were not won or defeated by trying to make nice with all those who have vowed to destroy us.

Time is not on our side....it is with our adversaries and they know it.

btk