Galvanized Gas Pipes in Attic

[johnfarr]

A friend who lives in Sunset Pointe, near the last 2 homes to burn down, decided to have the flex gas lines in the attic replaced with galvanized pipes.

The plumber said code requires galvanized pipes through the walls and only the attic has the flex stuff. The galvanized pipes are themselves an electrical ground and will take lightning strikes to the ground harmlessly.

Their cost of installation about $1,100. The peace of mind will be worth the cost to us.

Can anyone recommend some reputable plumbers so we can get some quotes?

[Midge538]

Check with "a1 lightening" for an estimate and an explanation of the attic installation problems re: Gas lines. You can protect your home from: A lightening strike, surges, and the scary and dangerous gas installation issues. This way your home and all of its appliances and electronics will be protected.

[faithfulfrank]

Are you sure you do not mean black iron pipe?

At least up here in NY, galvanized pipe for gas lines is against code. the galvanization flakes off the inside and can clog burners. We only use black iron pipe up here, although I have seen soft copper used with flare fittings for some small appliances.

I am a professional firefighter up here in NY. Any house fire I've been at that was started by lightning had enough damage done to it by the fire itself that a gas line would not have changed the outcome.

The sad truth is that with many homes now being built with truss construction, 24" on center, glued I joists, etc, homes are almost disposable. If there is much fire at all homes are almost a total loss many times.

That being said, I have not studied the impact on gas lines in a attic residential house fire. It does seem to me though that some "improvements" are fueled by fear more than fact, and that some contractors are profiting from it. I designed and built my own home up here in NY, and have run a lot of black iron gas line, and that amount seems high to me. I would speak to the local building inspectors and fire dept to get their take on the issue before making any decision.

Frank

[Kelsie52]

I have read several posts about the lightning strikes and gas lines in the Attic


I work for a large Utility in New York. We are responsible for the installiation and upgrades of electrical and gas services to Both Residential and Commercial buildings.

I have to ask WHY in 1 story home are gas services run through the attic ?

The service line enters the building underground --why does it run to the attic and down to appliances...

It appears the Water heater is in the Garage (the model I stayed in during my visit ) The only other possible gas fired equipment would be the stove or maybe AC unit .from what I saw the AC units are Electric --and I dont think anyone is cooking in the attic...
What am I mising ?

[GatbTester]

I am sure the Developer and his merry band of construction crews would have some sure fire non-volatile answers, truth be told however; my belief would begin and end with keeping the cost of construction down so that profits can remain UP!

[BobKat1]

I am sure the Developer and his merry band of construction crews would have some sure fire non-volatile answers, truth be told however; my belief would begin and end with keeping the cost of construction down so that profits can remain UP!

It's no doubt faster/cheaper to run the flexible in the attic vs. making all of the needed galvanized connections. I wonder if after so many incidents the town or county would re-look at the codes?

[Midge538]

There was a class action lawsuit regarding this type of construction. The suit was successful and the payoffs to home owners should all be made by now. I don't remember seeing an article in the Daily Sun at any time regarding this issue. The case is now closed. That being said, as a homeowner I have addressed the risk that the dangerous placement of the gas line and the unsafe wiring of these lines presents.

[SteveFromNY]

I have to ask WHY in 1 story home are gas services run through the attic ?

The service line enters the building underground --why does it run to the attic and down to appliances...

It appears the Water heater is in the Garage (the model I stayed in during my visit ) The only other possible gas fired equipment would be the stove or maybe AC unit .from what I saw the AC units are Electric --and I dont think anyone is cooking in the attic...
What am I mising ?

The heat, hot water, dryer and stove in my house are gas. The line runs through the attic, and is flex pipe where it is visible. I had A1-Lightning install a lightning protection system that grounds the gas line and the meter, along with multiple rods on the roof. I have gained some peace of mind as a result.

If you did change out the pipe, I agree with Frank above, you would use black pipe, not galvanized. It's not suitable for gas for sme reason. At least not in NY.

I would still want the LPS as the roof is still a target.

Why did they run them thru the attic? It must be less expensive.

[chuckster]

In reply to Kelsie.........

I might be wrong but it seems that gas lines could not be run in the concrete slab (settling, corrosion, etc). I've seen where pvc water lines in the slab have broken/cracked and leaked into the house. IMHO the only safe option and shortest run is to the attic and down to the appliances.

[gsbcdb]

Where we live gas lines has to be black pipe.What is your thinking on this

[Kelsie52]

Yes --Black pipe should be the least ...

New Buildings here in New York sometimes are built on slabs as they are in TV. I just dont see why when the pipe enters the building underground it rises to the Attic . I am sure as said before , cost is the reason.

I think it could be run along the floor through the framing between the sheetrock and outer wall and then rise only 3 feet to the appliance instead of fall from the rafters at least 7 feet down to the inlet valve .

Just my opinion --there might be some Florida codes that mandate this application..
Wont stop me from buying !!!! but maybe I might look all Electric lol

[SteveFromNY]

Kelsie - maybe in addition to cost the settling issue mentioned by chuckster could be key. With all the potential settling that goes on in houses, it's easy to imagine a pipe cracking and gas (or water) leaking.

[katezbox]

Are you sure you do not mean black iron pipe?

At least up here in NY, galvanized pipe for gas lines is against code. the galvanization flakes off the inside and can clog burners. We only use black iron pipe up here, although I have seen soft copper used with flare fittings for some small appliances.

I am a professional firefighter up here in NY. Any house fire I've been at that was started by lightning had enough damage done to it by the fire itself that a gas line would not have changed the outcome.

The sad truth is that with many homes now being built with truss construction, 24" on center, glued I joists, etc, homes are almost disposable. If there is much fire at all homes are almost a total loss many times.

That being said, I have not studied the impact on gas lines in a attic residential house fire. It does seem to me though that some "improvements" are fueled by fear more than fact, and that some contractors are profiting from it. I designed and built my own home up here in NY, and have run a lot of black iron gas line, and that amount seems high to me. I would speak to the local building inspectors and fire dept to get their take on the issue before making any decision.

Frank

Frank,

Most posters subsequent to you have seemed to ignore your comment that the house would most likely have burned anyway.

Thanks for your insight.

Kate

[chuckster]

Didn't mean to ignore frank's informative article, however had occassion to witness result of a lightning strike that via gas line to the weak point in the attic (the flex pipe), which split and ignited. The homeowner heard and saw what happened (flame from gas line in attic) and extinguished same. So in this case the structure was not consumed in flames although it could have been if left unchecked.

It's also interesting to note that homes I have toured in the newer sections are all electric. Makes me wonder if someone hasn't seen the risk in the flex lines used for gas runs within the structure. We already know that there was litigation more than a year ago against the flex line manufacturer that was settled by the manufacturer agreeing to pay toward the cost of lightning rod systems for a limited time. The time period incidentally has passed. Personally, even with the lightning arrestor system, I would like more info as to cost for replacing the flex lines in my attic with steel (black) pipe. I never have had a warm fuzzy feeling for the thin walled flex pipe. Any info would be appreciated......Thanks

[chuckinca]

Are you sure you do not mean black iron pipe?

At least up here in NY, galvanized pipe for gas lines is against code. the galvanization flakes off the inside and can clog burners. We only use black iron pipe up here, although I have seen soft copper used with flare fittings for some small appliances.

I am a professional firefighter up here in NY. Any house fire I've been at that was started by lightning had enough damage done to it by the fire itself that a gas line would not have changed the outcome.

The sad truth is that with many homes now being built with truss construction, 24" on center, glued I joists, etc, homes are almost disposable. If there is much fire at all homes are almost a total loss many times.

That being said, I have not studied the impact on gas lines in a attic residential house fire. It does seem to me though that some "improvements" are fueled by fear more than fact, and that some contractors are profiting from it. I designed and built my own home up here in NY, and have run a lot of black iron gas line, and that amount seems high to me. I would speak to the local building inspectors and fire dept to get their take on the issue before making any decision.

Frank


It was reported earlier on one of the posts that the fire dept stood around watching the house on fire because they were concerned about safety around the gas lines.

.

[mulligan]

To kelsie52: There is no inner wall. Furring strips are applied to concrete block(5/8" thick), and drywall is screwed to them. Not enough room for gas pipes. Not sure about frame construction, but there may be a code issue

[Kelsie52]

Thanks Mulligan --
Didnt know that about the furring strips ...Still seems a little odd to me about the Attic because I know that would never fly here ..

I would just find a safer way to run it if it were up to me ...but if thats the code ! so be it
I am sure they have discussed this before .. It only alarmed me due to the Lightning strike issue. I would want to leave any fuel for a fire out of the reach of something I cant control.

As I said before --wont stop me from buying a home there hopefully when I return in February ...:duck:

Wish i was there now ---fall is here will get cold soon:cold:

[faithfulfrank]

I am by no means an expert here, especially on Florida construction. I'm but a humble guest who owns a home just south of you all. My Florida home is 15 years old, and wood frame, not CBC construction. It is in The Plantation, and it is all electric.

I have designed and built my own home up here in NY, and have run black pipe gas lines many times. Flex pipe is newer, and we see it more and more. My fire experience has all been in NY as a Professional firefighter for over 18 years. In terms of fire and gas lines, one needs to remember that even with black iron pipe in homes, the connection to gas dryers and gas stoves is flexible pipe.....so no home is completely black iron pipe.

Now, I have no experience to know if there is a special concern with flex pipe in an attic as it pertains to a attic fire caused by lightning. The comment that firefighters just stood by because they were concerned with the gas line "blowtorch" does not make sense to me. I would assume that you have a gas meter next to your home, and that unless the home was fully involved, that gas meter would have been assessable. If so, any fire dept would have just turned it off. That would have turned off the gas throughout the home and any gas in the lines would have quickly been burned off.

Now if there is some reason that a gas line could not be turned off, then yes, we let it burn off, so as to not let the raw gas travel. This is especially true with Propane, which is heavier than air, whereas Natural Gas is lighter than air. We would still aggressively attack the rest of the fire though, hopefully minimizing the home's damage.

There is a point though that if a fire is so widespread that nothing could be saved, the fire dept would switch to a defensive posture, protecting the other homes close to the burning home.

So, I'm sorry I could not be more helpful. I do know that while the home is being constructed and everything is exposed, it would not cost that much more at all to use all black iron pipe. It is much more costly to replace it after the attic area is enclosed.

The other point I was making is that homes now, with truss construction instead of rafters, etc, are almost disposable. Trusses are just short pieces of 2x4's held together with cheap steel gussets that come apart within minutes of a fire. Most times the roof is too far compromised to be saved even before any fire dept even gets there, if there is any fire in the attic area. That is why firefighters have a saying, "Don't trust a truss". We do not ventilate a roof if it is truss construction and fire in in the attic.

Just my opinion, but if I were building a new home today, it would have a residential sprinkler system. The cost is reasonable, and your insurance premiums are lower if you have it. They are safe, not ugly anymore, and it is proven they save homes with hardly ANY damage. If every home was sprinklered, I'd almost be out of a job.

I apologize for the long post.

Frank

[zcaveman]

It was reported earlier on one of the posts that the fire dept stood around watching the house on fire because they were concerned about safety around the gas lines.

.

No. They realized the house could not be saved and they got out of the house to save their lives. The gas was already turned off.

[faithfulfrank]

No. They realized the house could not be saved and they got out of the house to save their lives. The gas was already turned off.

I'm sure that is the case. They switched to a defensive posture, protecting the homes that I'm sure are close to the burning home. We call this protecting the exposures. No fire dept I've ever seen would have just stood around. A fire scene sometimes looks chaotic but is really quite organized if you know their S.O.P.

For the record, I was in no way criticizing their efforts or methods.

Frank

[chuckinca]

No. They realized the house could not be saved and they got out of the house to save their lives. The gas was already turned off.



See 8/12/09 posts on Lightning strike on Sable Chase:

Lightening Strike!
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Wow! Yes we were coming down canal and saw some smoke and when we approached, we could see the house on fire. Flames coming out of the roof, but as we came around we could see the ceiling was already coming down inside.

What I don't understand, and maybe someone can explain, is there was at least 6 firetrucks and no one appeared be be in a hurry to do anything!!! Now, I'm sure they have their reasons, but I was wondering why they didn't appear to be jumping into action???

From what I know is that the woman that lives there is out of the country in Argentina. So, thank God, no one was inside (no pets either) and no one was hurt.

But, those flames were dangerously close to the neighbors on both sides. I would have been a nervous wreck! It's just awful.

When we were coming home from dinner, the smoke was still billowing and we did then see firemen with the hoses.

It's very scary. We saw a couple of lightening hits in the field across from us also.
__________________
Laughter and Light, Chelsea




mac9
Senior Member


________________________________________
The gas line in the attic blew. The firemen could do nothing until the gas was turned off.


.

[llaran]

the gas pipes we have are CSST pipes, simular to the one that connects the dryers. one of our friends recently had a gas bill for $70, called TECO and they sent a man out; there was a leak, but he couldn't fix it, they had to call a plumber. there was a class acton suit about the CSST pipe. Google CSST gas pipe

[johnfarr]

I checked my friend's pipe installation and it is indeed galvanized pipe, installed by a reputable plumber.