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View Full Version : The Dangers of the Cap and Trade (Waxman-Markey) Bill


Guest
09-30-2009, 04:39 PM
The Stated Purpose of this bill is, “To create clean energy jobs, achieve energy independence, reduce global warming pollution and transition to a clean energy economy.”

It will achieve none of these purposes, but will result in massive unemployment and a continuing decline in the economy. Why do we know this? The impact of the cap and trade bill will be a disaster. To quote President Obama, "Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket." ‘Skyrocket’ is estimated to be $1,700 per year for the average household.

The push for this is ‘global warming’ with its supposed accompanying disasters. Let’s examine three global warming myths:

Myth 1. – Sea levels are rising and soon will flood coastal cities and Pacific Islands.

Fact: Sea level has risen and is continuing to rise – very slowly. Data from 158 NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) stations around the world show that sea level is rising at some stations and falling at others. The current rate of rising is 2.42 inches per century and is showing no sign of increasing.
http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/MSL_global_trendtablefc.html

Myth 2. – The Arctic Cap is vanishing growing smaller and smaller each year.

Fact: Polar sea ice area has increased by 1.5 square kilometers at its minimum (always observed in September) and is nearly back to 1978-2000 mean. Polar ice has stopped pulling back. The bears will not die.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

Myth 3. – It is getting hotter.

Fact: It is getting colder. Again to quote NOAA, Based on data through the end of 2008, the contiguous U.S. experienced a nationally averaged temperature that was the coolest in more than ten years. The average temperature of 53.0°F (11.7°C) was 0.2°F (0.1°C) above the 20th century (1901-2000) mean.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2008/ann/us-summary.html

This bill has already passed the House and is coming to the Senate. I strongly suggest that we all write our senators and ask them to vote ‘no’ on Cap and Trade.

Guest
09-30-2009, 05:03 PM
Cap and trade, defrocked, is the most massive "stealth" tax ever levied on the American people. All related tax increases to business and industry will be passed on to taxpayers in price increases. It is a devious, devastating mugging of the American people spearheaded by political thugs, at least one from Chicago, or is that Hawaii, or was it ................:shrug:

You have covered the clean energy and global warming diversionary sideshow quite well. :beer3:

Guest
09-30-2009, 05:36 PM
The Stated Purpose of this bill is, “To create clean energy jobs, achieve energy independence, reduce global warming pollution and transition to a clean energy economy.”

It will achieve none of these purposes, but will result in massive unemployment and a continuing decline in the economy. Why do we know this? The impact of the cap and trade bill will be a disaster. To quote President Obama, "Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket." ‘Skyrocket’ is estimated to be $1,700 per year for the average household.

The push for this is ‘global warming’ with its supposed accompanying disasters. Let’s examine three global warming myths:

Myth 1. – Sea levels are rising and soon will flood coastal cities and Pacific Islands.

Fact: Sea level has risen and is continuing to rise – very slowly. Data from 158 NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) stations around the world show that sea level is rising at some stations and falling at others. The current rate of rising is 2.42 inches per century and is showing no sign of increasing.
http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/MSL_global_trendtablefc.html

Myth 2. – The Arctic Cap is vanishing growing smaller and smaller each year.

Fact: Polar sea ice area has increased by 1.5 square kilometers at its minimum (always observed in September) and is nearly back to 1978-2000 mean. Polar ice has stopped pulling back. The bears will not die.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

Myth 3. – It is getting hotter.

Fact: It is getting colder. Again to quote NOAA, Based on data through the end of 2008, the contiguous U.S. experienced a nationally averaged temperature that was the coolest in more than ten years. The average temperature of 53.0°F (11.7°C) was 0.2°F (0.1°C) above the 20th century (1901-2000) mean.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2008/ann/us-summary.html

This bill has already passed the House and is coming to the Senate. I strongly suggest that we all write our senators and ask them to vote ‘no’ on Cap and Trade.

We know these things. Try to conveince the liberals among us.

Yoda

Guest
09-30-2009, 05:48 PM
The Stated Purpose of this bill is, “To create clean energy jobs, achieve energy independence, reduce global warming pollution and transition to a clean energy economy.”

It will achieve none of these purposes, but will result in massive unemployment and a continuing decline in the economy. Why do we know this? The impact of the cap and trade bill will be a disaster. To quote President Obama, "Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket." ‘Skyrocket’ is estimated to be $1,700 per year for the average household.

The push for this is ‘global warming’ with its supposed accompanying disasters. Let’s examine three global warming myths:

Myth 1. – Sea levels are rising and soon will flood coastal cities and Pacific Islands.

Fact: Sea level has risen and is continuing to rise – very slowly. Data from 158 NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) stations around the world show that sea level is rising at some stations and falling at others. The current rate of rising is 2.42 inches per century and is showing no sign of increasing.
http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/MSL_global_trendtablefc.html

Myth 2. – The Arctic Cap is vanishing growing smaller and smaller each year.

Fact: Polar sea ice area has increased by 1.5 square kilometers at its minimum (always observed in September) and is nearly back to 1978-2000 mean. Polar ice has stopped pulling back. The bears will not die.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

Myth 3. – It is getting hotter.

Fact: It is getting colder. Again to quote NOAA, Based on data through the end of 2008, the contiguous U.S. experienced a nationally averaged temperature that was the coolest in more than ten years. The average temperature of 53.0°F (11.7°C) was 0.2°F (0.1°C) above the 20th century (1901-2000) mean.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2008/ann/us-summary.html

This bill has already passed the House and is coming to the Senate. I strongly suggest that we all write our senators and ask them to vote ‘no’ on Cap and Trade.

Ok you don't believe in global warming... the past winters in Colorado have been warmer...thats why the pine beetle is killing the forests. In fact several times it was warmer here than in TV, during the winter.

New jobs can't hurt.....

Guest
09-30-2009, 05:55 PM
Yoda, could you use your omnipotent insight to enlighten us with an answer to this energy riddle.....How many liberals does it take to change a light bulb?

Guest
09-30-2009, 06:03 PM
in many, many years!!!

Conclusion? Global warming is and has been blown out of proportion and then worst of all it became a political issue. Listen to who is saying what and then follow the money trail to the future gain.

Global warming is as predictable as forecasting hurricanes.....and we all have evidence of how good they are. And that is an annual debacle.

The cap and tax bill has no specific target to stave off global warming. Would anyone support a tax to mount an effert to be able to reduce or eliminate hurricanes? How about a program to be able to steer them out to sea where they will do no damage.

btk

Guest
09-30-2009, 07:46 PM
Yoda, could you use your omnipotent insight to enlighten us with an answer to this energy riddle.....How many liberals does it take to change a light bulb?


Here you go.....

None we have the servants do it!


LOL

Guest
09-30-2009, 08:13 PM
Ok you don't believe in global warming... the past winters in Colorado have been warmer...thats why the pine beetle is killing the forests. In fact several times it was warmer here than in TV, during the winter.

New jobs can't hurt.....

Do you bother to check the data or do you just opine? You are right in that Colorado had a warmer than usual winter this past year, however the United States as a whole did not. You did not check to see that the 206-2007 and 2007-2008 winters were colder than normal in Colorado.

I cannot observe the weather here in TV and project it upon the rest of the country. The advantage of using US temperature is that it provides the best database for a large land mass. For example, since 1895, Florida’s average annual temperature has declined by .08 degrees/decade and Colorado’s has increased by .12 degrees/decade. Colorado’s precipitation is declining by .06 inches/decade and Florida’s is increasing by exactly the same amount. The nation as a whole has seen virtually no change in the amount of precipitation received.

Guest
09-30-2009, 08:29 PM
Do you bother to check the data or do you just opine? You are right in that Colorado had a warmer than usual winter this past year, however the United States as a whole did not. You did not check to see that the 206-2007 and 2007-2008 winters were colder than normal in Colorado.

I cannot observe the weather here in TV and project it upon the rest of the country. The advantage of using US temperature is that it provides the best database for a large land mass. For example, since 1895, Florida’s average annual temperature has declined by .08 degrees/decade and Colorado’s has increased by .12 degrees/decade. Colorado’s precipitation is declining by .06 inches/decade and Florida’s is increasing by exactly the same amount. The nation as a whole has seen virtually no change in the amount of precipitation received.

You have made my point....

Colorado’s has increased by .12 degrees/decade. Colorado’s precipitation is declining by .06 inches/decade One would think that would mean it is getting hotter here. And the dropping precipitation is NOT good news for skiing industry....

I sited the pine beetle problem which is widespread in Colorado...it makes me sick to see the pine trees turn red. The winters, even in the high country, are not cold enough to kill off this pest. Last year, when I was in TV, it was in fact colder in TV than here in Colorado Springs.

Just going on personal experience I have lived here since 1966.

Guest
09-30-2009, 09:44 PM
You have made my point....

Colorado’s has increased by .12 degrees/decade. Colorado’s precipitation is declining by .06 inches/decade One would think that would mean it is getting hotter here. And the dropping precipitation is NOT good news for skiing industry....

I sited the pine beetle problem which is widespread in Colorado...it makes me sick to see the pine trees turn red. The winters, even in the high country, are not cold enough to kill off this pest. Last year, when I was in TV, it was in fact colder in TV than here in Colorado Springs.

Just going on personal experience I have lived here since 1966.

Personal experience is anecdotal evidence - this is a common tool that politicians and lawyers use to cite one or two examples and then generalize it to the entire universe of such situations. The winter of 2007-2008 was the second wettest on record in Colorado. This past winter saw normal precipitation. So, is this good or bad news for the ski industry? A decline averaging 0.6" per century is not statistically significant, especially when record snowfalls are being recorded.

Guest
09-30-2009, 10:24 PM
Ok you don't believe in global warming... the past winters in Colorado have been warmer...thats why the pine beetle is killing the forests. In fact several times it was warmer here than in TV, during the winter.

New jobs can't hurt.....

Colorado does not the world make.

Yoda

Guest
09-30-2009, 10:28 PM
Colorado does not the world make.

Yoda

Depends on your view......

Guest
09-30-2009, 10:34 PM
Personal experience is anecdotal evidence - this is a common tool that politicians and lawyers use to cite one or two examples and then generalize it to the entire universe of such situations. The winter of 2007-2008 was the second wettest on record in Colorado. This past winter saw normal precipitation. So, is this good or bad news for the ski industry? A decline averaging 0.6" per century is not statistically significant, especially when record snowfalls are being recorded.

Colorado weather patterns are always wet/dry....this summer has been very wet so next winter....dry.

Guest
10-01-2009, 07:28 AM
The average global temperatures have dropped for the last seven years.

If the Liberals check that out ,which is very easy to do, they will still vote their politics and not their common sense.

Guest
10-01-2009, 09:11 AM
The average global temperatures have dropped for the last seven years.

If the Liberals check that out ,which is very easy to do, they will still vote their politics and not their common sense.

That must be why liberalism is referred to as a mental disorder. Not that I agree.

Yoda

Guest
10-01-2009, 09:17 AM
kept indicate cyclical trends just like we are experiencing currently.

Since the issue has been tagged by the politicians, the special interest groups, the media and the gullible....it has been and continues to be whipped into an undesreved frenzy.

Talking about the accuracy of global warming is in the same realm of practicality as measuring the exact size of a cloud. If there were a personal value/gain in it for the politicians, the special interest groups, the media and the gullible....they would be arguing that they are getting bigger (or smaller.....oh my!!!!!!!!

btk

Guest
10-01-2009, 06:04 PM
The average global temperatures have dropped for the last seven years.

If the Liberals check that out ,which is very easy to do, they will still vote their politics and not their common sense.

Not a liberal...but I did check it out....according to this you might be a bit off base:

Calendar year 2008 was the coolest year since 2000, according to the Goddard Institute for Space Studies analysis [see ref. 1] of surface air temperature measurements. In our analysis, 2008 is the ninth warmest year in the period of instrumental measurements, which extends back to 1880 (left panel of Fig. 1). The ten warmest years all occur within the 12-year period 1997-2008. The two-standard-deviation (95% confidence) uncertainty in comparing recent years is estimated as 0.05°C [ref. 2], so we can only conclude with confidence that 2008 was somewhere within the range from 7th to 10th warmest year in the record.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2008/

But maybe you don't believe NASA....

Guest
10-01-2009, 08:02 PM
When I was a kid the headline buzz of the day was global cooling. We were all headed for the next ice age. Now it's global warming. Global warming is one of the biggest frauds ever perpetrated on the American people.

Let's see, the earth has been around for millions of years so they say. We've been measuring the earths temperature for about the last 100 years at most. Hum...

All of a sudden it's man made global warming even though they say now we are actually cooling off a bit... So they conveniently change the name to climate change.

They say our cars among other things are causing it. Valcanos have been erupting for millions of years and continue to this very day. They put more CFC's and carbon in the air in the span of a few days than all the cars put together yet we are all still here. Read some of the stats on Mt. Pinatubo erupting in 1991.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/VulcanoPinatuboJune1991.gif

Yet we are lead to believe that we (little ants on the earth) are causing the earth's climate to change. What a scam... and some actually believe it.

Guest
10-02-2009, 03:30 PM
By the way when discussing "GLOBAL WARMING" what the heck does Colorado have to do with a GLOBAL issue.

Guest
10-02-2009, 07:39 PM
By the way when discussing "GLOBAL WARMING" what the heck does Colorado have to do with a GLOBAL issue.

First of all we are part of the globe, the last time I checked. And writers have always been told:

Write about what you know...after 43 years I know Colorado. Certainly I wouldn't write about Florida weather.

Guest
10-03-2009, 07:59 AM
Please answer the question. When the facts show that the earth has been cooling for at least 7 years in a row why do you try to refute that by referring to colorado?

Guest
10-03-2009, 08:09 AM
I'd like to hear the answer too. However, it doesn't matter that the earth has been cooling for 7 years. It's not global warming anymore it's climate change. We are the one's making the earth warm up and cool off and thus we must be punished with higher taxes.

As with most liberals, logic and common sense always takes a back seat to emotions and feelings. As long as it sounds good it must be good. That's exactly what got this group of clowns elected. Universal health care sounds wonderful, protecting the earth sounds wonderful. Facts and common sense have no place in the discussion.

Guest
10-03-2009, 08:18 AM
Amen

Guest
10-03-2009, 05:07 PM
Please answer the question. When the facts show that the earth has been cooling for at least 7 years in a row why do you try to refute that by referring to colorado?

I provided a link from NASA which showed the earth is in a warming trend not a cooling trend. In Colorado the winters have been much milder over the past years. In summary NASA concluded:

In our analysis, 2008 is the ninth warmest year in the period of instrumental measurements, which extends back to 1880 (left panel of Fig. 1). The ten warmest years all occur within the 12-year period 1997-2008.

Now I gave you a scientific link with the warming data not you have not provided any link with cooling data.

Guest
10-04-2009, 09:11 AM
Go to "Science and Public Policy" for a non political report ON GLOBAL COOLING.

Guest
10-04-2009, 10:53 AM
Go to "Science and Public Policy" for a non political report ON GLOBAL COOLING.

I give you NASA and you give me junk science...:loco:

Guest
10-04-2009, 01:01 PM
You must be a Liberal. Liberals will not consider anything that questions their talking points.

And they rudely stop discussons.

Bye.

Guest
10-05-2009, 10:08 PM
Here you go.....

None we have the servants do it!


LOL

Cologal,
I'll bet most of these global warming deniers fervently believe in Adam and Eve(evolution? a socialist plot!), Noah's ark, dinosaurs and humans lived together, and if they lived in the early twentieth century the 19th amendment was a socialist plot.
They'll wake up to the problem when the billions of Chinese and Indians are driving cars and gas is $10+ a gallon and they have their dead cold hands wrapped around the steering wheel of their gas guzzling SUV.
Most of the bunch on this political board sound like a bunch of whiners who offer no positive opinions on how to deal with the problems we face.

Guest
10-06-2009, 07:40 AM
Cologal,
I'll bet most of these global warming deniers fervently believe in Adam and Eve(evolution? a socialist plot!), Noah's ark, dinosaurs and humans lived together, and if they lived in the early twentieth century the 19th amendment was a socialist plot.
They'll wake up to the problem when the billions of Chinese and Indians are driving cars and gas is $10+ a gallon and they have their dead cold hands wrapped around the steering wheel of their gas guzzling SUV.
Most of the bunch on this political board sound like a bunch of whiners who offer no positive opinions on how to deal with the problems we face.

You know, making fun of religious beliefs is just a bit out of line, dont you think ?

I have no strong opinion on the subject, but when someone is so filled with whatever you are filled with to mock religious beliefs (Not talking about me) and call folks "whiners" that you have never met then I put you in the catagory of....well, cant think of a catagory that is LOW enough !

Guest
10-06-2009, 08:23 PM
You know, making fun of religious beliefs is just a bit out of line, dont you think ?

I have no strong opinion on the subject, but when someone is so filled with whatever you are filled with to mock religious beliefs (Not talking about me) and call folks "whiners" that you have never met then I put you in the catagory of....well, cant think of a catagory that is LOW enough !

You guys can't take a bit of irony! One minute you're spouting facts and the next minute you're ignoring facts and resorting to name calling, what is this "socialist", "socialism" crap. In case you don't know it our military and VA ministration is "socialist" ie. run by the US government. I have the utmost respect for our troops and hate to see them put in harm's way by irresponsible elected officials and misguided military brass who take little responsibility for their misguided direction of the war. I respect people's religious beliefs, they should just keep them to themselves. The 9/11 wackos were supposedly doing god's work and Bush sought advice from his "father in the sky" rather than his real father who probably would have warned him not to listen to Cheney and Rumsfeld who were still sore that Bush Sr. didn't invade Iraq. And speaking of low, Bush, Cheney, Gingrich, Romney, Beck, O'Reilly et al. were conspicuously absent from military service in Viet Nam yet they are the biggest cheerleaders when it comes to using military force. To quote Mr. Cheney about his absence and lame excuse from serving "I had better things to do."

Guest
10-06-2009, 09:56 PM
You guys can't take a bit of irony! One minute you're spouting facts and the next minute you're ignoring facts and resorting to name calling, what is this "socialist", "socialism" crap. In case you don't know it our military and VA ministration is "socialist" ie. run by the US government. I have the utmost respect for our troops and hate to see them put in harm's way by irresponsible elected officials and misguided military brass who take little responsibility for their misguided direction of the war. I respect people's religious beliefs, they should just keep them to themselves. The 9/11 wackos were supposedly doing god's work and Bush sought advice from his "father in the sky" rather than his real father who probably would have warned him not to listen to Cheney and Rumsfeld who were still sore that Bush Sr. didn't invade Iraq. And speaking of low, Bush, Cheney, Gingrich, Romney, Beck, O'Reilly et al. were conspicuously absent from military service in Viet Nam yet they are the biggest cheerleaders when it comes to using military force. To quote Mr. Cheney about his absence and lame excuse from serving "I had better things to do."

When all intelligence fails on a topic revert to Bush bashing. Oh it gets soooo old.barf

Guest
10-06-2009, 11:15 PM
I give you NASA and you give me junk science...:loco:

Colagal, I thank you for doing your homework. There are several problems with some of NASA's conclusions, since I believe them to be self-serving. For example, they use the 1950-1980 as a baseline. Data from NOAA shows this to be coldest three decade period in the 20th century.

The three web sites referenced below are in order. The first is a graphic presentation of ice area anomalies at the South Pole using data provided to the University of Illinois by NASA/NOAA. This data show that the Antarctic minimum was at its highest level since satellite data has been available.

The second site is a graph showing total global sea ice area from 1985 to present. If you look at the annual anomalies, you will see total global sea ice area has not changed in that period of time. No global warming (or cooling for that matter).

The third is a link to an article in World Climate Today extracted from a report in the journal Geophysical Research Letters. This article is in understandable English. The original paper is written in scientific jargon and difficult, at best, to understand. But the source is cited in the article if you wish to read it. It shows that ice area at the South Pole is increasing. To borrow a phrase (slightly corrupted) from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle – the article questions why the ‘dog, in this case NASA, didn’t bark.’ Could it be that with the manned space program coming to a close, NASA is hunting for a reason for its existence outside of the work done by JPL and have selected ‘global warming’ as its reason?

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.anom.south.jpg
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2009/10/06/antarctic-ice-melt-at-lowest-levels-in-satellite-era/#more-386

Guest
10-07-2009, 08:12 AM
Very good research BBQMAN.

It is unfortunate tho that a liberal will not bother to read an opposing argument.

Guest
10-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Very good research BBQMAN.

It is unfortunate tho that a liberal will not bother to read an opposing argument.

Cashman...if you are referring to me ....you are very off base. While I am far from a conservative I am also far from a liberal. So I will read the links provided..

Now the issue is does a conservative listen to anyone who is not.

Guest
10-16-2009, 07:51 AM
Not sure if any had heard of the man who had his microphone cut off at a public hearing because he was asking Al Gore difficult questions and even pointed out falsehoods in the movie Inconvenient Truth.....this article was written by him and anyone who has an open mind should at leat read it...

"But it is now time for journalists, and the consumers and businesses that will pay the ultimate price, to start questioning the conventional wisdom about global warming and exposing its true cost. If alarmists like Al Gore get their way, millions of American families will watch as their dreams of a prosperous and pleasant future disappear.

The evidence of environmentalism run amok abounds in Europe. Spain believed the spin that environmental regulation can create "green jobs" and boost the economy. Now the country has 18% unemployment. Britain could suffer blackouts because of policies that require the country to replace coal with fuels like solar and wind power that aren't readily available or reliable.

And of course this one sentence...

"That's bad news for taxpayers. The Obama administration reluctantly admitted last month that cap-and-trade would cost the average American family $1,761 a year"

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=509026