Can’t steer a ship – our 7th Fleet

[twoplanekid]

I can’t believe what I am reading in these articles about recent US Navy accidents and the loss of 17 sailors. Basic skill sets such as steering a ship have been eroded that far? I now know that it was our Navy’s fault in these collisions. Sure hope things turn around soon before more lives are lost.


Navy finds deep-rooted failures led to fatal collisions (https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2017/11/02/navy-finds-deep-rooted-failures-led-to-fatal-collisions/)

Sailors driving the McCain were not qualified to be on watch, Navy says (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/11/02/sailors-driving-the-mccain-were-not-qualified-to-be-on-watch-navy-says/)

[Sandtrap328]

Possible it had anything to do with the Fat Leonard scandal? Too many ships in a channel, etc?

[billethkid]

Is it possible that the permissive attitude and watering down of expectations, nobody fails, everybody is equal is manifesting itself in our services?

I know from talking to drill/gunny sergeants at Parris Island it is very prevalent there, hence all services.

Not allowed to discipline, expectations are watered down, etc, etc......compared to pre permissive America.

Just a thought.

[manaboutown]

Current policies terrify me. Whether it is the armed services, police or medical schools, admission and hiring criteria have been eviscerated. People get onboard (please excuse the pun) who are underquailified, incapable and uncommitted to professionalism.

[rustyp]

I can’t believe what I am reading in these articles about recent US Navy accidents and the loss of 17 sailors. Basic skill sets such as steering a ship have been eroded that far? I now know that it was our Navy’s fault in these collisions. Sure hope things turn around soon before more lives are lost.


Navy finds deep-rooted failures led to fatal collisions (https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2017/11/02/navy-finds-deep-rooted-failures-led-to-fatal-collisions/)

Sailors driving the McCain were not qualified to be on watch, Navy says (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/11/02/sailors-driving-the-mccain-were-not-qualified-to-be-on-watch-navy-says/)

I believe you should be skeptical of what you are reading. Today's navigation systems are pretty darn intelligent packaged with many fail-safe systems. Think about it - we are on the verge of driver less cars. This is the US navy we are talking about. These people are no slouches at software development. All four of these ships are missile launchers. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that the personnel on these ships are either neglectful of duty or ineptly trained.

[Kenswing]

Is it possible that the permissive attitude and watering down of expectations, nobody fails, everybody is equal is manifesting itself in our services?

I know from talking to drill/gunny sergeants at Parris Island it is very prevalent there, hence all services.

Not allowed to discipline, expectations are watered down, etc, etc......compared to pre permissive America.

Just a thought.It sure is different from when I served..

[dewilson58]

It sure is different from when I served..

Since you served, what are your thoughts on how this could happen???............I have no basis for an understanding, I find it shocking and very sad. Just interested in your view from an intelligent prospective.

Thanks

[Goldwingnut]

Is it possible that the permissive attitude and watering down of expectations, nobody fails, everybody is equal is manifesting itself in our services?

I know from talking to drill/gunny sergeants at Parris Island it is very prevalent there, hence all services.

Not allowed to discipline, expectations are watered down, etc, etc......compared to pre permissive America.

Just a thought.

I agree with you 100%!
It's been going on a lot longer than most realize. I saw it in the 80's when I was an instructor in the Navy at the Nuclear Power Training Unit in Ballston Spa NY, we were told to be "pumps not filters". The Navy Nuclear Power Program at that time had a 60+% pipeline attrition rate for the Nuc program, by design, it was supposed to be hard, they wanted only the best in the program operating the reactors in the fleet. The powers that be wanted to lower the number to <30% so we were told to be "pumps not filters" for the students and let the fleet worry about weeding out those who couldn't cut it. I don't know a single instructor at the time who took that direction to heart, we all knew that we would be returning to the fleet and would see these guys again, no thanks, the filters stayed on.

We received students out of Nuclear Power School in Orlando that should have never made it to NPTU. Every instructor got two or three students in every class to be a mentor to in addition to their normal instructor duties. One of my charges come out of NPS with a 2.48 GPA, minimum passing grade is 2.50. He didn't have the academic skills to make it through the program and eventually failed his final oral board, twice. The filters worked.

Before retiring from the Navy in '99 I had guys reporting to my division on the ship that were of questionable abilities. These guys were intelligent by most standards but by Nuc program standards were a box of rocks. There was a lot of "hand holding" to be done and we had to make them "feel valued" when they came on board. We had to "make them feel motivated" to do their job, a load of crap. They signed an enlistment contract, they get a paycheck twice a month, they're told to do it, motivation complete. It's the military not summer camp, you don't do your job, people die.

What happened on these two ships can be boiled down to three things, poor leadership, poor watch standing practices, and too much reliance on technology. Watch for the results of the investigations, you'll see all three listed as root causes.

[billethkid]

Since you served, what are your thoughts on how this could happen???............I have no basis for an understanding, I find it shocking and very sad. Just interested in your view from an intelligent prospective.

Thanks

The technology that must be present in a specifically designed, dedicated missile launch capable ship it is beyond comprehension that a story would have us believe somebody was "driving" the ship and was untrained!!!
The cockpit automation has to equal that of a modern day airliner....auto settings, auto alarms, anti collision, etc, etc.

Having said what I said in a previous post in this thread, given the sophistication of the cruise/navigation/mitigation systems there just has to be more to the story than is being released for public consumption.

[dewilson58]

The technology that must be present in a specifically designed, dedicated missile launch capable ship it is beyond comprehension that a story would have us believe somebody was "driving" the ship and was untrained!!!
The cockpit automation has to equal that of a modern day airliner....auto settings, auto alarms, anti collision, etc, etc.

Having said what I said in a previous post in this thread, given the sophistication of the cruise/navigation/mitigation systems there just has to be more to the story than is being released for public consumption.

Thanks!!

I just can't wrap my head around these events.

There are hero's we loss.

[Kenswing]

Since you served, what are your thoughts on how this could happen???............I have no basis for an understanding, I find it shocking and very sad. Just interested in your view from an intelligent prospective.

ThanksLeaving out conspiracy theories such as the Chinese hacking our navigation systems.. I think there are several issues to consider. Morale, fatigue, discipline and training just to name the biggies.

We have been at war almost constantly since 9/11. Ships are sent out on more frequent and longer deployments. It's hard to keep your edge and focus if you're always on alert. This can lead to fatigue which will lead to low morale. If the commanders can't find a way to keep sailors motivated and engaged then accidents happen.

Then there are more systemic problems such as training and recruiting. With a robust economy all of the services are in competition with private industry for manpower. Look at what the Air Force just did to try to shore up the pilot shortage.

I don't think there is any one reason these collisions took place. I think it's more of a stacking of several factors.

Then again I served in the Marines. What do I know about the Navy.. lol

[dewilson58]

Leaving out conspiracy theories such as the Chinese hacking our navigation systems.. I think there are several issues to consider. Morale, fatigue, discipline and training just to name the biggies.

We have been at war almost constantly since 9/11. Ships are sent out on more frequent and longer deployments. It's hard to keep your edge and focus if you're always on alert. This can lead to fatigue which will lead to low morale. If the commanders can't find a way to keep sailors motivated and engaged then accidents happen.

Then there are more systemic problems such as training and recruiting. With a robust economy all of the services are in competition with private industry for manpower. Look at what the Air Force just did to try to shore up the pilot shortage.

I don't think there is any one reason these collisions took place. I think it's more of a stacking of several factors.

Then again I served in the Marines. What do I know about the Navy.. lol

:wave:

[Villager Joyce]

I am not promoting censorship, however, I don’t think it is necessary to report and repost everything you hear, read or think. All of our enemies now know even more vulnerabilities. For what? To make our current administration look stupid? To loosely quote an old Twilight Zone episode: as long as there is man, there can be no peace.

[twoplanekid]

I am not promoting censorship, however, I don’t think it is necessary to report and repost everything you hear, read or think. All of our enemies now know even more vulnerabilities. For what? To make our current administration look stupid? To loosely quote an old Twilight Zone episode: as long as there is man, there can be no peace.

I would suspect that “our enemies “do daily read Defense news, Aviation Week and many other publications to glean whatever they can about our capabilities. However, these publications also provide some accountability to citizens for the actions of our military. Informed citizens are better citizens. I didn’t sense any political overtones. Our Navy recognized that our ships caused these collisions at sea and are “admitting to widespread failures and training shortfalls at the core of its most basic function: safely operating ships at sea.”

[Mikeod]

Is it possible that the permissive attitude and watering down of expectations, nobody fails, everybody is equal is manifesting itself in our services?

I know from talking to drill/gunny sergeants at Parris Island it is very prevalent there, hence all services.

Not allowed to discipline, expectations are watered down, etc, etc......compared to pre permissive America.

Just a thought.

I’m reminded of something I heard from an admiral while I was on active duty. He asked us how it could be that 95% of the officers in his command had fitness reports rating them in the top 1%. This was 30+ years ago, so this is not a new thing.

[bbbbbb]

[QUOTE=Kenswing;1469955]Leaving out conspiracy theories such as the Chinese hacking our navigation systems.. I think there are several issues to consider. Morale, fatigue, discipline and training just to name the biggies.

We have been at war almost constantly since 9/11. Ships are sent out on more frequent and longer deployments. It's hard to keep your edge and focus if you're always on alert. This can lead to fatigue which will lead to low morale. If the commanders can't find a way to keep sailors motivated and engaged then accidents happen.

After 7 years at sea, in the Merchant Marine. On any large ship at sea, there is at least one and maybe two officers in charge, one or two persons reading the radar at two different ranges, far and near, there is a person on the wheel and another on standby. With all the liberal commands from our former NOn commander in chief, we now have the LGBT and others who should not be on a ship. Suggestion, get some retired US Merchant Marine Captains and First Mates, and put them in charge of training for the Navy for two years, problems will be solved.
bbbbbb :smiley:

[Carl in Tampa]

These mishaps bring to my mind the movie The Enemy Below, with Robert Mitchum as the Captain of a WWII Destroyer in the South Atlantic.

The movie was filmed on board an actual Destroyer, and depth charges were actually fired as a part of the movie action.

What I found interesting was the purported agility of the Destroyer as it pursued a German submarine. The Captain of the Destroyer calculated the amount of time after the submarine they were pursuing submerged before he could expect incoming torpedoes. He presented his beam to the submarine to entice the attack.

Then, at the chosen moment he shouted for "Left Full rudder; Flank speed on the starboard engine; Stop port engine." The Destroyer turned sharply and the incoming torpedoes were avoided.

One would think that modern Destroyers would be similarly agile, and the controls would be as easy to operate as a World War II Destroyer.

NOW; the "Rest of the Story."

This movie was hampered by multiple mishaps. Among them was when Robert Mitchum opened and stepped through the wrong hatch and fell 20 feet to the deck below, severely injuring his back.

Perhaps more troubling, on the part of the Navy, was when they fired several depth charges (apparently in an improper manner) and the concussion disabled the Destroyer.

Yep, they knocked themselves out of action.

.

[par]

I can’t believe what I am reading in these articles about recent US Navy accidents and the loss of 17 sailors. Basic skill sets such as steering a ship have been eroded that far? I now know that it was our Navy’s fault in these collisions. Sure hope things turn around soon before more lives are lost.


Navy finds deep-rooted failures led to fatal collisions (https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2017/11/02/navy-finds-deep-rooted-failures-led-to-fatal-collisions/)

Sailors driving the McCain were not qualified to be on watch, Navy says (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/11/02/sailors-driving-the-mccain-were-not-qualified-to-be-on-watch-navy-says/)
Both ships were T boned. What they need is more people on watch in high traffic areas.

[Wiotte]

Both ships were T boned. What they need is more people on watch in high traffic areas.



No, just one competent Captain


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[twoplanekid]

from USNI news - "Investigation: USS Fitzgerald, USS John McCain ‘Avoidable’ Collisions Due to Lapses in Basic Seamanship"
Investigation: USS Fitzgerald, USS John McCain ‘Avoidable’ Collisions Due to Lapses in Basic Seamanship - USNI News (https://news.usni.org/2017/11/01/investigation-uss-fitzgerald-uss-john-mccain-avoidable-collisions-due-lapses-basic-seamanship)

and "Both crews did not attempt to contact the merchant ship bearing down on them, sound a warning horn, sound a collision warning or sound general quarters before the impacts."

[manaboutown]

from USNI news - "Investigation: USS Fitzgerald, USS John McCain ‘Avoidable’ Collisions Due to Lapses in Basic Seamanship"
Investigation: USS Fitzgerald, USS John McCain ‘Avoidable’ Collisions Due to Lapses in Basic Seamanship - USNI News (https://news.usni.org/2017/11/01/investigation-uss-fitzgerald-uss-john-mccain-avoidable-collisions-due-lapses-basic-seamanship)

and "Both crews did not attempt to contact the merchant ship bearing down on them, sound a warning horn, sound a collision warning or sound general quarters before the impacts."

Total incompetence!