Breaking in new batteries

[Bay Kid]

Is there anything that I should do special to break in new batteries on a Yamaha cart? Thanks

[billethkid]

No break in required....good to go flat out day one.

[ajbrown]

From my reading, it is recommended you take it a little easy for the first charges. Google it...

Battery Boys recommends this, although I have never been this regimented...

Battery Boys (352) 643-1241 :: Battery break-in procedures (http://batteryboys.us/battery-education/breakin-procedures/)

[TechGC]

Yes there is a break in period before the batteries get to full capacity.

It takes about 25 charge cycles to get to full power. Don't discharge the batteries below 50 percent during this time.

[Bay Kid]

Thank you for the information. I will start break in today.

[ajbrown]

Stuff snipped by Alan from OP...

Don't discharge the batteries below 50 percent during this time.

This is my rule of thumb for the entire life of the pack. You think that is being overly cautious?

[CWGUY]

No break in required....good to go flat out day one.

:oops:

[Rollie]

Batteries are not suppose to go below 50 percent.

Rollie

[ajbrown]

:oops:

No break in required....good to go flat out day one.

Actually there are two sides to this coin. Here is a link to a post from when I was younger which quotes Trojan manufacturing... You will have to look to get the answer :)

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/428390-post1.html

[CWGUY]

Actually there are two sides to this coin. Here is a link to a post from when I was younger which quotes Trojan manufacturing... You will have to look to get the answer :)

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/428390-post1.html

:wave: I looked.... but the answer for me was buy gas. But the post from almost 6 years ago was interesting.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Is there anything that I should do special to break in new batteries on a Yamaha cart? Thanks

Yeah, trade it in on a new '17 or '18 Yamaha gasoline golf cart. :D:D You'll never have to worry about burning your house down while it's plugged in.

[Wiotte]

Yeah, trade it in on a new '17 or '18 Yamaha gasoline golf cart. :D:D You'll never have to worry about burning your house down while it's plugged in.



[emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JoMar]

And the camps start to circle the wagons..:)

[asianthree]

Drove one of the new carts at red fox today. It was so quiet it was hard to believe it was gas

[coffeebean]

Batteries are not suppose to go below 50 percent.

Rollie

Really? I was told not to charge my brand new batteries unless there were 3 bars. That is less than 50%. That is what I have done for the first year of owning our 2016 Yamaha electric cart. I was told this is how to condition the batteries.

[MorTech]

I assume your charger is a smart charger....No breaking in required. The charger will take care of any Equalize charging needed.

Always charge your lead-acid batteries full every night! If you leave your batteries in any state of discharge, you will lead-sulfate crystallize the plates and ruin the batteries over time. No wonder people are only getting 3 years from their batteries...Keep them charged full using a smart charger with the proper battery charge profile.

You should not run the batteries down less than 20% State of Charge (SoC). My cart controller shuts down when batteries are at 20%...at about 55 miles. I have a 6x8V Trojan T-875 setup.

[Bay Kid]

I assume your charger is a smart charger....No breaking in required. The charger will take care of any Equalize charging needed.

Always charge your lead-acid batteries full every night! If you leave your batteries in any state of discharge, you will lead-sulfate crystallize the plates and ruin the batteries over time. No wonder people are only getting 3 years from their batteries...Keep them charged full using a smart charger with the proper battery charge profile.

You should not run the batteries down less than 20% State of Charge (SoC). My cart controller shuts down when batteries are at 20%...at about 55 miles. I have a 6x8V Trojan T-875 setup.

If you go away for an extended time do you use a trickle charger?

[Arctic Fox]

If you go away for an extended time do you use a trickle charger?

I have used a batteryMinder for the past five years and the batteries still have plenty of life in them. Also, nice to come back to TV after a few months to a ready-to-go cart.

[TechGC]

This is my rule of thumb for the entire life of the pack. You think that is being overly cautious?

If your looking for longest life, you are building in your own safety factor.

They recommend never going below 80 percent discharge, however, in the villages, many do this and lower and it will diminish life of the battery pack.

[TechGC]

Really? I was told not to charge my brand new batteries unless there were 3 bars. That is less than 50%. That is what I have done for the first year of owning our 2016 Yamaha electric cart. I was told this is how to condition the batteries.

Whoever told you that needs to stop selling batteries.

That is not good to let a deep cycle battery sit uncharged.

That's not conditioning batteries, that's helping to shorten there life.

The problem in this industry is everyone is a battery expert or a golf car expert. Ask 10 shops how to properly charge your batteries and youll get 10 different answers. Its difficult for us to properly educate the public on both batteries and even golf car repair.

[TechGC]

I assume your charger is a smart charger....No breaking in required. The charger will take care of any Equalize charging needed.

Always charge your lead-acid batteries full every night! If you leave your batteries in any state of discharge, you will lead-sulfate crystallize the plates and ruin the batteries over time. No wonder people are only getting 3 years from their batteries...Keep them charged full using a smart charger with the proper battery charge profile.

You should not run the batteries down less than 20% State of Charge (SoC). My cart controller shuts down when batteries are at 20%...at about 55 miles. I have a 6x8V Trojan T-875 setup.


If you are using that calculation, then you are depleting the batteries to 80% discharge

[ajbrown]

I assume your charger is a smart charger....No breaking in required. The charger will take care of any Equalize charging needed.

Stuff deleted by Alan from OP



It is nice to see we have a couple of golf cart folks on TOTV again (including TechGC). I am just a DYI guy always trying to learn.

Will the CC Powerdrive charger from 2002 do this equalization charge?

Thanks

[Arctic Fox]

It is nice to see we have a couple of golf cart folks on TOTV again...I am just a DYI guy always trying to learn.

You already know way more on this topic than most of us, AJ :-)

[TechGC]

It is nice to see we have a couple of golf cart folks on TOTV again (including TechGC). I am just a DYI guy always trying to learn.

Will the CC Powerdrive charger from 2002 do this equalization charge?

Thanks


All chargers have been designed to equalize the batteries. The final 4 hours (or so) is to bring all the batteries to the same shut off voltage. With the advent of new style chargers, its has changed a bit with the way batteries are charged now.

[MorTech]

"Will the CC Powerdrive charger from 2002 do this equalization charge?"

I don't know but I doubt it does a proper Equalize but good enough, I reckon. I am pretty sure that all new electric carts of the last 5 years come with a proper smart charger now. The smart charger will automatically perform equalization and trickle charging. My Yamaha charger performs an Equalize charge about every month (I know when it occurs because I can smell a faint sulfur sent in the garage). It will send 63V to the 48V set for about 4 hours boiling off any crystals that may be on the plates. It will also perform a charge cycle automatically every 2 weeks when I'm away.

If you want a good smart charger, look into Delta-q QuiQ 1000...About $350 and is programmable for all battery types and profiles.

[MorTech]

I hardly ever drive over 20 miles (about 70% SoC) between full charges. Trojan T2 batteries should last 2500 charge cycles at 30% depth of discharge((DoD) 70% SoC = 30% DoD)...Like 7 years.

[larcha]

Like with most appliances, you should check the manufacturer's recommendations. Your owner's manual should say how, or if, to break in a battery plus future operating instructions. If you no longer have your owners manual most manufacturers post them online.

[OhioBuckeye]

Whoever told you that needs to stop selling batteries.

That is not good to let a deep cycle battery sit uncharged.

That's not conditioning batteries, that's helping to shorten there life.

The problem in this industry is everyone is a battery expert or a golf car expert. Ask 10 shops how to properly charge your batteries and youll get 10 different answers. Its difficult for us to properly educate the public on both batteries and even golf car repair.

I agree, if you're a snow bird, I would disconnect the batteries & use a trickle charge or make sure they're fully charged before you go home for the summer. Also & I know nobody would take 6 to 8 batteries out of a cart but if you would for some reason, DON'T SIT BATTERIES ON CEMENT, IT'LL RUIN THEM! TECHGC & yes 10 shops will tell you 10 different things. Also keep the battery post clean & the top of the batteries!

[nututv]

It depends on what type of battery the cart has installed. (AGM, L-ION, Lead Acid) Some have charge recommendations, others have none.

[Bay Kid]

Is it ok to have the charger on the floor while charging? Lots of questions, but I want to do this right. Thank you all.

[ajbrown]

I agree, if you're a snow bird, I would disconnect the batteries & use a trickle charge or make sure they're fully charged before you go home for the summer. Also & I know nobody would take 6 to 8 batteries out of a cart but if you would for some reason, DON'T SIT BATTERIES ON CEMENT, IT'LL RUIN THEM! TECHGC & yes 10 shops will tell you 10 different things. Also keep the battery post clean & the top of the batteries!

This is not true of modern batteries. From everything i read years ago, leaving them on a cement floor does no harm to the battery.

I recall a couple of sites that in fact thought it is better than a shelf as the floor is cooler. One link of many:

ASK THE EXPERTS: Batteries on Concrete | Home Power Magazine (https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/ask-experts-batteries-concrete)

[ajbrown]

Is it ok to have the charger on the floor while charging? Lots of questions, but I want to do this right. Thank you all.

As long as the area is clean, why not?

My opinion... I would not overthink this. As folks have said, keep batteries watered, connections clean and tight.

So many easy to read articles on battery maintenance, have a read over coffee and 20 minutes later you will be a 'TOTV expert'

[MorTech]

"DON'T SIT BATTERIES ON CEMENT, IT'LL RUIN THEM!"

Is a myth.

Just get a proper 3-stage smart charger and that's all you need for maximum battery life.

[coffeebean]

This is my rule of thumb for the entire life of the pack. You think that is being overly cautious?

For the battery conditioning period, I was instructed by dealer to wait until the battery meter was down to 3 bars before I charged the batteries. Because of this, during the conditioning period when my cart was new, I charged the batteries about once a week. The conditioning period is over now but I still continue to charge the batteries about once a week. I don't need to charge the batteries every night because I don't drive it very much. Neither my husband or myself plays golf.

[coffeebean]

Batteries are not suppose to go below 50 percent.

Rollie

The literature I have when we purchased our 2016 Yamaha electric cart states to not allow the battery meter to go below 2 bars. That is more than 50% discharged.

What good is it to have a 60 mile range on one charge when you are supposed to go only 30 miles before having to charge the batteries?

[Bay Kid]

I have been breaking in Dad's new batteries for the past week. Distance and speed is getting better. Mom will enjoy the quiet, except from the noises you hear from the tires, Curtis Cab, etc. It is a golf cart Mom!

Taking care of the batteries, adding water, the smell of charging in the garage and the worry of how far can I go really reminds me why I love my gas cart!

[MorTech]

Coffeebean: If you don't keep the batteries fully charged, you will not get even 3 years from them. Battery replacement is $750.

What is your objection to keeping the cart plugged in when not in use?

[Topspinmo]

Coffeebean: If you don't keep the batteries fully charged, you will not get even 3 years from them. Battery replacement is $750.

What is your objection to keeping the cart plugged in when not in use?

probably thinking the are like Lithium Ion and don't want to get memory short charge???????

[coffeebean]

Coffeebean: If you don't keep the batteries fully charged, you will not get even 3 years from them. Battery replacement is $750.

What is your objection to keeping the cart plugged in when not in use?

I don't have an objection at all. I just didn't know that not keeping them charged all the time would shorten the life of the batteries. I was told the batteries have a maximum amount of cycles before they will need to be replaced. I figured, the least amount of cycles, the longer the batteries would last. Right now, I'm only using one cycle per week by plugging it in only once per week. That is wrong to do?

Let me get this straight.....now that the batteries are "conditioned", I SHOULD charge the batteries every night even if I only drive 5 miles or less in one day? For example: to the mail center and back necessitates the cart to be plugged in?

Please advise. Thanks.

[MorTech]

I don't have an objection at all. I just didn't know that not keeping them charged all the time would shorten the life of the batteries. I was told the batteries have a maximum amount of cycles before they will need to be replaced. I figured, the least amount of cycles, the longer the batteries would last. Right now, I'm only using one cycle per week by plugging it in only once per week. That is wrong to do?

Let me get this straight.....now that the batteries are "conditioned", I SHOULD charge the batteries every night even if I only drive 5 miles or less in one day? For example: to the mail center and back necessitates the cart to be plugged in?

Please advise. Thanks.


Ahhh, now I see where your coming from. Charge Cycles don't work that way...One charge cycle is from dead battery to full battery charge and not the number of times you plug it in. If you charge to 100% and then discharge to 70% full (About 25 miles with your Yamaha - EZGO RXV maybe 30 miles since it is more efficient/less powerful), you have used about 1/3 of a charge cycle. Trojan T batteries (The brand in your Yamaha) have about 2500 charge cycles with this depth of discharge. If you drive 25 miles everyday and plug it in every night you should see 2500 / 365 = Almost 7 years of battery life. You did not need to ever "condition" the batteries because the Yamaha smart charger takes care of everything for you. Charge your batteries full even if you only drive one mile that day. basically, plug in your cart, and leave it plugged in, every time you pull in the garage. The charger will cycle on and off on its own. It will even automatically perform a charge cycle every 2 weeks when your away for 7 months(snowbird?). The charger will also automatically perform an Equalize charge about every month. Keep them watered and charged...That's all you have to do.

I do this - When I pull into the garage and I know I will leave again in less than 30 minutes, I will not bother plugging it in. Any longer that 30 minutes and I always plug it in. I have the plug sitting on a shelf right next to me when I pull in the garage. I just reach over and plug it in before I even get off the cart. Plugging in is easier than putting on a seatbelt and it becomes second nature just to plug it in every time...Even after "a number" of beers :)

lead-acid and lithium batteries don't have charge memory problems. Only Nickel Cadmium batteries do.

[Biker Dog]

Ahhh, now I see where your coming from. Charge Cycles don't work that way...One charge cycle is from dead battery to full battery charge and not the number of times you plug it in. If you charge to 100% and then discharge to 70% full (About 20 miles with your Yamaha), you have used about 1/3 of a charge cycle. Trojan T batteries (The brand in your Yamaha) have about 2500 charge cycles with this depth of discharge. If you drive 20 miles everyday and plug it in every night you should see 2500 / 365 = Almost 7 years of battery life. You did not need to ever "condition" the batteries because the Yamaha smart charger takes care of everything for you. Charge your batteries full even if you only drive one mile that day. basically, plug in your cart, and leave it plugged in, every time you pull in the garage. The charger will cycle on and off on its own. It will even automatically perform a charge cycle every 2 weeks when your away for 7 months(snowbird?). The charger will also automatically perform an Equalize charge about every month. Keep them watered and charged...That's all you have to do.

I do this - When I pull into the garage and I know I will leave again in less than 30 minutes, I will not bother plugging it in. Any longer that 30 minutes and I always plug it in. I have the plug sitting on a shelf right next to me when I pull in the garage. I just reach over and plug it in before I even get off the cart. Plugging in is easier than putting on a seatbelt and it becomes second nature just to plug it in every time...Even after "a number" of beers :)

lead-acid and lithium batteries don't have charge memory problems. Only Nickel Cadmium batteries do.

Correct!!!!!:clap2:

[coffeebean]

MorTech. Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. I'm going to plug in the cart right now.

BTW........It was my Yamaha saleman who instructed hubby and I to "condition" the batteries. We were also given a handout about the process.

[MorTech]

That's not how you "condition" a lead-acid battery...That's how you ruin them...No wonder people are only getting 3 years from their batteries. Your charger will automatically run an Equalize charge when necessary or about every month that should help clean the lead-sulfate crystals off the battery plates. The charger ramps up the voltage for about 4-5 hours in an attempt to "boil" the plates clean. You may smell a bit of sulfur in the garage when Equalizing occurs and it is perfectly normal.

Believe me - Your Yamaha smart charger is smarter than your salesman :)

[coffeebean]

WOW. I'm so glad you made that perfectly clear to me. We've had this cart since it was new in October of 2016. I guess I haven't done the utmost best for this battery pack but I'm going to keep it plugged in all the time starting today. Thanks again, MorTech.

[Hacker1]

MorTech, your description of charger function appears to indicate that a battery minder is unnecessary. Battery minder is sold as a sort of "trickle charger" & battery desulfator. If the charger actually performs as you describe, then that would seem to render the battery minder useless. Is this correct?

[Bay Kid]

That's not how you "condition" a lead-acid battery...That's how you ruin them...No wonder people are only getting 3 years from their batteries. Your charger will automatically run an Equalize charge when necessary or about every month that should help clean the lead-sulfate crystals off the battery plates. The charger ramps up the voltage for about 4-5 hours in an attempt to "boil" the plates clean. You may smell a bit of sulfur in the garage when Equalizing occurs and it is perfectly normal.

Believe me - Your Yamaha smart charger is smarter than your salesman :)

If I leave for several months it is ok to leave the cart hooked to the charger? Will the water be fine, if topped off, after 7 months of leaving this on the charger? Thanks.

[MorTech]

MorTech, your description of charger function appears to indicate that a battery minder is unnecessary. Battery minder is sold as a sort of "trickle charger" & battery desulfator. If the charger actually performs as you describe, then that would seem to render the battery minder useless. Is this correct?

Yes...The newest carts with the latest smart chargers will take care of "minding" automatically by periodically running a charge cycle and equalize charges. If your charger doesn't have this capability, I personally would invest in a programmable smart charger like Delta-q QuiQ that can be programmed for all battery types (including lithium/AGM/GEL) and manufactures. You can find them on the internet for a couple hundred bucks.

One drawback of lead-acid is that it internally self-dischages at a rapid rate. after 2 weeks of just sitting, it will be at about 90%. If you remove the filler caps and look down each hole, it should be a dark grey or brownish color on the plates. If it is light grey or white then you will need to desulfate...which doesn't work very well and puts a serious hit on your remaining charge cycles. Minders, tricklers, and desulfators can do more harm than good. Prevention of lead-sulfate is key!

[MorTech]

If I leave for several months it is ok to leave the cart hooked to the charger? Will the water be fine, if topped off, after 7 months of leaving this on the charger? Thanks.

Yes...You can leave for several YEARS and your water level will be just fine. A Yamaha smart charger will run every 2 weeks which brings the charge level back to 100% from about 90%...Keeping your battery plates squeaky clean from that ruinous lead-sulfate. Always use distilled water...You want to use squeaky clean water as well.

[MorTech]

Another thing...Each battery has a birth date code stamped on the top. When you go to replace your battery set, make sure each of the batteries are not more than 4-5 months old. Trojan batteries have a 2-character date code: "A7" would be Jan 2017 birthdate - "B6" would be Feb 2016 birthdate. "K7" is coming off the factory line today (November 2017). This also holds true for your automobile batteries. You want fresh batteries like you want fresh bread...only bread is cheap.

Heck, if Im shelling out $750 for a new battery set, I don't want them to be more than a month old.

[TechGC]

Some of the recommendations, I wouldn't recommend. I personally have seen a set of batteries destroyed in 18 months by the "plug it in every time you use it"

If you drive it down the street and back, don't plug it in, your doing more harm than good. Put some run time on the batteries before you charge it. 15 minutes of true run time is what we would like to see before you plug it in. Everyday we hear all kinds of ways to charge your batteries, most wrong.
If you charge your batteries on a regular basis, you don't have sulfation, its as simple as that.
As I have stated before, everyone is a battery expert. If they were on a diesel mechanic, on a sub in the navy, saw a golf cart going down the street, they are a battery expert.
The debate will never end on this either, and people will do what they think is correct.

[MorTech]

"Some of the recommendations, I wouldn't recommend. I personally have seen a set of batteries destroyed in 18 months by the "plug it in every time you use it""

Destroyed by what? ...1000 other carts used the exact same way never see this failure. Are you saying in these failure instances the charger failed and destroyed the batteries?


"If you drive it down the street and back, don't plug it in, your doing more harm than good"

How exactly does it harm it?


If you charge your batteries on a regular basis, you don't have sulfation, its as simple as that

Define "Regular Basis". That term is meaningless.
Sulfation occurs as a natural chemical process when a lead-acid battery is discharged. To reverse sulfation, you have to charge your batteries full.


The debate will never end because of nonscientific notions espoused by those who are just plain wrong. There is really no debate...there is just exact science and math. Lead-acid batteries have been around for 160 years and to be an expert on them is not that difficult. Wikipedia "lead-acid battery" if you want to jog your high school math and chemistry.

[Bay Kid]

Yes...You can leave for several YEARS and your water level will be just fine. A Yamaha smart charger will run every 2 weeks which brings the charge level back to 100% from about 90%...Keeping your battery plates squeaky clean from that ruinous lead-sulfate. Always use distilled water...You want to use squeaky clean water as well.

This cart is a 2011. Wouldn't this be a smart charger?

[MorTech]

This cart is a 2011. Wouldn't this be a smart charger?

According to Yamaha parts list, it is model# JW2-H2107-03-00.

Yes it is.

I don't know if it is the latest tech 3-stage type (It probably is) but it is "smart".

[MorTech]

Consider the lead-acid battery in your automobile. You start the car and drive at least 10 minutes before shutting off almost all the time. You discharge the battery with the starter for 5 seconds and then the alternator kicks in and charges your battery full for the next 10 minutes. Your car battery should last about 6-7 years under these conditions if you keep the car out of the sun (Summer heat diminishes the battery) and use your car everyday to keep charge level at 100%. This charge cycle is no different than driving your fully charged golf cart one mile to the mailbox and then plugging in when you get home. I do this a few times a week (1.2 miles round trip to my mailbox) and my charger runs for maybe 15 minutes after I plug in. If you drive your automobile only a couple times a month, your battery will be in a constant state of discharge (maybe 80%) due to background electronics draw and the natural self-discharge of the battery. Under these conditions you will find your automobile battery lasting only about 3-4 years. It is critical for lead-acid battery longevity to keep them fully charged.

[biker1]

I have lived in the south for 25 years and car batteries don't typically last 6-7 years in the hotter climates. While it may be possible that some high cost batteries such as Optimas and certain AGMs will go longer, 3-4 years is pretty typical. My personal record is nearly 10 year for an AGM but typical no-maintenance flooded batteries last 3-4 years in the south.

Consider the lead-acid battery in your automobile. You start the car and drive at least 10 minutes before shutting off almost all the time. You discharge the battery with the starter for 5 seconds and then the alternator kicks in and charges your battery full for the next 10 minutes. Your car battery should last about 6-7 years under these conditions if you keep the car out of the sun (Summer heat diminishes the battery) and use your car everyday to keep charge level at 100%. This charge cycle is no different than driving your fully charged golf cart one mile to the mailbox and then plugging in when you get home. I do this a few times a week (1.2 miles round trip to my mailbox) and my charger runs for maybe 15 minutes after I plug in. If you drive your automobile only a couple times a month, your battery will be in a constant state of discharge (maybe 80%) due to background electronics draw and the natural self-discharge of the battery. Under these conditions you will find your automobile battery lasting only about 3-4 years. It is critical for lead-acid battery longevity to keep them fully charged.

[TechGC]

A golf cart battery and your automotive battery are two totally different styles of battery. The golf cart battery is deep cycle, it is meant to be discharged, an automotive battery is a starting battery, and as stated, used for a few seconds and the car system takes over. You cant compare the two. Florida heat does kill batteries no matter what type they are. 7 years out of a golf cart battery or an automotive battery is not the norm, no matter how you use it or charge it.

The biggest killer of a golf cart battery is " depth of discharge". When a battery is new and has full capacity, a 20 mile trip may only be a 50 percent discharge, but at 3 years that same 20 mile trip could equal 80 percent discharge. A 48 volt pack, at full discharge is 42 volts underload, the problem is the cart will run normal so people just keep driving, thus damaging the batteries.
I'm not sure what everyones experience is or how many golf cars a day everyone works on, but I see it everyday and hear every which way on how to charge a set of batteries. I can only give out info of what I know has worked for too many years to count, and the info can be taken for what its worth. Doesn't hurt my feelings if its not followed.

[MorTech]

Yes the two batteries are built differently but they have the same chemistry...The lead-acid chemistry is the point. In fact, the deep cycle plates are more robust.

According to Trojan white papers, max capacity takes about 50 charge cycles to achieve, and holds steady thru the life of the battery and then drops off pretty abruptly the last few months of life. You will notice your battery gauge dropping rapidly over about the final 2 months or so. It isn't that hard to miss and the chances of someone being stranded by this are near zero (If you do get stranded and have a cell phone and credit card, call one of the many cart battery suppliers and they will come out to you and install a new set of batteries, clean everything up, and take the old batteries away in just a few hours and you will be good to ho for another 6 years. While they work, you can walk thru the villages and chat with people. heck, it is highly likely that someone will even offer you a beer! There is no problem with being stranded for a few hours). At 30% depth of discharge, you should see 2500 charge cycles..30% is about 25 miles on a Yamaha AC. I doubt many people drive that far per day (I do go on long joyrides but the joy leaves me after 30 miles on a golf cart). Take into account some longer than 25 mile distances traveled per day and the 90F+ summer heat (keep in mind with an electric cart, there is no hot engine and the battery compartment has a nice seat cushion to block the sun's heat so you don't see smoldering temperature like you do in an automobile/gas cart engine compartment (I doubt the electric cart's battery compartment temperature is ever much above ambient) that takes away charge cycles, and you should see 6 years easily on the batteries. I have never seen or heard of more than 7 years on a lead-acid battery set though...So maybe 2500 charge cycles or 7 years whichever come first is more like it.