8 PM Curfew

[Whalen]

Just wondering...

How many posters are happy with the 8 PM curfew now in effect for entertainment at local Country Clubs?

Was at Havana CC this evening while the Sheriff was shutting down the entainment at about 7:45 due to numerous complaints!

Had I known I was expected to be in bed by 8PM I might have moved elsewhere.

All kidding aside, I live very close to Havana CC, do not mind the music, in fact I enjoy it, and just want to know why the big fuss about about music at the CC?

Oh, and who the hell are the cranky old Bast--ds who complained?

[mac9]

I didn't realize that there is a curfew. We were at Mallory Sat nite and they did stop at 8, but I assumed that it was that particular group's choice. I think that it stinks. This place is beginning to close up earlier and earlier. There are some of us that don't feel the need to be in bed by 9:30! Guess that I'll have to start spending my money outside of TV for my evening entertainment. Oh, well, it's TV's loss of my revenue!

[KathieI]

Just wondering...

How many posters are happy with the 8 PM curfew now in effect for entertainment at local Country Clubs?

Was at Havana CC this evening while the Sheriff was shutting down the entainment at about 7:45 due to numerous complaints!

Had I known I was expected to be in bed by 8PM I might have moved elsewhere.

All kidding aside, I live very close to Havana CC, do not mind the music, in fact I enjoy it, and just want to know why the big fuss about about music at the CC?

Oh, and who the hell are the cranky old Bast--ds who complained?

Some of you know, I've been upset with the Sheriff's office for months about this situation. What are they thinking? This is absolutely absurd. I have heard its just the Sumter Sheriff's office, not Marion county. At Gator's the other night, the DJ (Patrick) was given a timeline of his deadlines of stopping the music and pulling drinks off the table for the rest of the evening. Are they nuts???

I've written this before and I'll continue to repeat myself.... we're here for retirement and we bought in TV for the activities and music and fun. We pay TAXES.... and this is how we are treated? I'm not a boomer, believe me I'm far from it, but look around, the boomer generation will not stand for this. Neither will all the tremendous talented entertainers that we attract here.

For those in the know (com'on you guys, like Skip, Fumar, l2ride, Steve from NY, etc.) how do we fight this. I have no intention of ending my nights at 8pm!!! Can we start a petition, call the sheriff's office, ALL go to the next Morse meeting to complain? I'm infuriated and I'd like to hear some of your suggestions. We need to reverse this stupid decision IMMEDIATELY.

WOW, you can tell I'm mad huh :swear::swear::swear:

[Talk Host]

I don't know anything about this curfew.

Would somebody please fill in the blanks. What curfew? Who's curfewed? How long has this been going on? By what law or ordinance can they shut things down?

JLK

Curfew, by the way, comes from the french, meaning "to cover the fire." That was the time of night that authorities covered the lights to indicate that people should be off the street.

In my home town of Weirton, West Virginia, they sounded all the fire whistles at 10 p.m. to tell people under 16 years of age that they had to be off the streets. We always thought that somehow, magically at 10:01 the cops would swoop down out of nowhere and snag us.

JLK

[elevatorman]

Is the sheriff an elected office? :MOJE_whot:

[KathieI]

TH, this has been slowing building up for awhile. I've posted some issues many times over the summer about the restrictions that are being put upon us about entertainment after 9pm.

Here's one link that I could find:

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24591

It started out with Red Sauce karaoke this summer where there were in excess of 800 people surrounding the restaurant after 9pm to enjoy the music and fun. And because of the pressure from the Sheriff's office, we moved over to RJ Gators and complied with every demand they made (like no music outside, keeping the music to a sound level that was acceptable, no dancing outside, music until midnight and no drinks after then also), but still that was not acceptable. They now have officially made a CURFEW!! ???? Are we children? Do we not have rights? What the hail is going on here.

We have also moved over to Marion Country, Big City Grill, next to Katie Belle's. Again, we have complied with all the requests (unhappily but we complied). Music is NOT OUTSIDE, music is kept to an acceptable level, music and drinks stop at 1am. And still the restaurant owners are being harassed by Property Management and the Sheriff's Office...

I hope this fills in the blanks and that we (TOTV'ers - who have a lot of clout) can come up with an idea to show our annoyance with this harassment.

[Skip]

Oh, I can't wait to read the juicy details in the Daily Sun! :p

(I'll have to dig on this.)

Skip

[billethkid]

public venues in our lives whether it be TV, the state or federal......as a result of the groans and moans of the few (known as the minority) are directing the administrators (what ever they be) to act against the wishes of the many (known as the majority).

And I will bet......just like all the other venues.....the few will prevail.....because they took an action. The majority never seems to reach critical mass......hence we follow!

btk

[skip0358]

:swear::swear:I haven't had a curfew like that since 1st grade. That's totaly nuts. There must be a town or county meeting that can be attented in mass numbers. All you see in the papers is thank goodness for all the people moving intoThe Villages. It's so good for the econemy. To hell with the people who don't like music and noise. Move elsewhere. Be sides the noise from the clubs is really not that much.This has to be addressed. Next they'll be complaining about the noise from gas powered golf carts. It's a bunch of bull if you ask me.I guess they couldn't enforce a curfew outside the property for the kids so they pull the plug on the older kids in the villages. Does anyone know of town or county meetings that are held? If so when and where?:swear::swear::swear:

[dillywho]

:laugh:You have got to be kidding!! Most times back home, we didn't even go out or get started until 8:00 except to be there in time for Happy Hour. Trust me, we are definitely not baby boomers, either. But we sure ain't old fogeys (or however you spell it). Guess if you can't spell it, you can't be it.

[JTW]

I am in TOTAL agreement with you all regarding this issue of an 8pm curfew (or whatever you want to call it). It seems to me that we are being treated like naughty children who enjoy themselves too much for the likes of the folks who are "put out" at the noise level after 8pm. I felt it first when New Year's Eve went from entertainment till midnight at the Square to an end of music at 9pm! Then after having fun listening to the music this summer at redsauce, it was suddenly put brought to a halt. I mean really...just because we are usually mild mannered adults, we are being bullied into forced submission to keep a few folks happy. I am all for attending any meetings regarding this issue or if you know who to call, I'll be happy to join that bandwagon as well. I want to be able to make my own decisions about when to go home in the evening and not be told what to do and when to do it.

[redwitch]

Talk about patently ridiculous.

Probably the first step would be to inundate Sumter County Sheriff with complaints. If you chose to buy near a town square for the convenience of quick and easy access, your tradeoff is you get to hear the noise and bear the traffic. I'd also find out when TV administrative meetings are held and complain there. Also, start petitions to be signed by customers at the country clubs, town squares, etc.

BTW -- None of the town squares (nor any portion or them) are in Marion County. Katie Belle's, etc. might be in Lake County, but I wouldn't swear to it one way or the other.

[ejp52]

Can't swim at the pools after sunset,8 pm curfew at local Country Clubs,what is next bed checks at 9pm?:mad:
How ridiculous, like BTK said a few people stir the pot and complain,and the rest of us suffer,sad.

[Talk Host]

Can't swim at the pools after sunset,8 pm curfew at local Country Clubs,what is next bed checks at 9pm?:mad:
How ridiculous, like BTK said a few people stir the pot and complain,and the rest of us suffer,sad.

I'm wondering what law they are enforcing. Part of the problem with living in a community where there is no government elected by the people.

[t fields]

what a crock of sh--!!! i think this needs to be addressed to "mr morse" himself personally, i know he has some pull, for gods sake we pay the sheriffs salary and all his little guys, if it was'nt for us i wonder who would pay his outrageous salary and all his cronies!

[t fields]

don't forget to CLOSE YOUR GARAGE - BY 8:00 pm

[Spectreron]

We are planning to buy in TV this spring but this curfew business is a downer. If I wanted to roll up the streets at 8:00 pm I would be looking for a retirement home in Arkansas. I hope you current TV'ers do something about this. The nightly entertainment is a huge reason TV is so special. Damn!

[SABRMnLgs]

My quesion would be this ............... if everyone decided not to pay any attention to the bumblng cronies who began this curfew thing, where would they incarcerate 800 people? Who would feed them, etc and for how long?
Sonds like a lot of 60s rallies.

Jerry

[Talk Host]

My quesion would be this ............... if everyone decided not to pay any attention to the bumblng cronies who began this curfew thing, where would they incarcerate 800 people? Who would feed them, etc and for how long?
Sonds like a lot of 60s rallies.

Jerry


Hey, hey, hey. Just like the 60s. Lay down in front of the bus..:a040:

[NJblue]

There seems to be two different issues at play here. One is music played in outdoor venues and the other is indoor entertainment. I believe the Havana CC falls into the outdoor category. While 8 PM seems a bit early, if I lived on one of the streets that borders Havana, I would not be too happy with music coming into my house late at night either. It certainly would not be something that I should have expected when I bought my property for my dream retirement.

The other issue is indoor entertainment. If indeed venues such as Gators are being asked to close down their entertainment early (and even the bar as Kathie indicated), then there may be a cause for real complaint - unless the noise levels actually "leak" out of the bar such that they can be clearly heard in residential neighborhoods.

I suggest that if Havana wants to continue its music after 9 or perhaps 10 PM that they do it inside so that they don't disturb the neighbors. Clearly in my mind outdoor entertainment in a residential neighborhood such as Havana should be restricted after a reasonable hour. There is no reason (other than inconsiderateness) why it can't be moved indoors if they want to extend the night. If you disagree with this, try this thought experiment: consider your neighbor putting a large stereo out on his lanai and playing music and having a party there many nights of the week, every week. I doubt that too many would want such a thing and they would be going to the authorities to curtail it.

PS - I'm a baby boomer who does like to occasionally enjoy live entertainment late at night. However, I also recognize that we are a large community and we need to be considerate of our neighbors to keep this place as nice as it is. Once consideration goes, then the beauty of TV will vanish.

[DickY]

This is a Sumter County issue. The county Commissioners are holding a monthly meeting :
Title: Board of County Commissioners - Regular Meeting
Date: November 24, 2009
Address: 510 Colony Boulevard
The Villages, FL 32162
Location: Colony Cottage Recreation Center, Parlor Room
Hours: 5:00 PM
Contact: 352-793-0200
Email: Jessica.douglas@sumtercountyfl.gov
Maybe attending this meeting is an opportunity to bring something up to the powers that be. I don't know how open these meetings are. An interesting figure in today's paper shows the county population at about 95,000. The Villages probably constitutes the majority of the population.

Sumter County Link: http://www.sumtercountyfl.gov/index.aspx

The County Code showing beverage laws are accessable here.

[KathieI]

My quesion would be this ............... if everyone decided not to pay any attention to the bumblng cronies who began this curfew thing, where would they incarcerate 800 people? Who would feed them, etc and for how long?
Sonds like a lot of 60s rallies.

Jerry

Jerry, what I'm hearing is they are threatening the restaurant owners with fines that are huge. That's all they need, in addition to paying high rents to have a business in the villages. Some of the owners have protested a lot but got no where and they asked us (the Villagers) to get involved to help them.

I started a petition a few months back regarding the Red Sauce restrictions. I'm going to reword it in general about these new rules and will pass them around at Gators, Havana and Big City Grill those nights that I am there. Hope you'll will sign them for US, not just ME.

[NJblue]

I started a petition a few months back regarding the Red Sauce restrictions. I'm going to reword it in general about these new rules and will pass them around at Gators, Havana and Big City Grill those nights that I am there. Hope you'll will sign them for US, not just ME.


Why not create a petition for Havana management to move the entertainment inside. If they are still harrassed, then petition the powers that be.

[KathieI]

[QUOTE=NJblue;233850]
....... If you disagree with this, try this thought experiment: consider your neighbor putting a large stereo out on his lanai and playing music and having a party there many nights of the week, every week. I doubt that too many would want such a thing and they would be going to the authorities to curtail it./QUOTE]

NJBlue, this is a lot different than a neighbor right next door putting out a stereo on his lanai, Havana has a golf course inbetween the CC and the nearest houses. I also have said that they have kept the level of the music to a moderate sound and are trying very hard to be considerate of everyone around them. If you bought around a country club, I would think you would have thought about noise and traffic surrounding the CC. BTW, 10pm is not late, most big cities have at least 11pm noise ordinances and some at midnight.

[skip0358]

I would not consider Havana in close proximity to houses. Morse Blvd. is to the east so houses are quite a distance, as are the houses on odell. The closest would probaly be the one that's for rent on the N. side of Odell that backs up to the country club even that is several thousand feet from the music itself.As for quiet time yes there should be some consideration but not 8PM. Let's look at it they let the contractors start at 7AM and a lot of people are sleeping at that time. It also seems to me there were postings on here regarding Havana miy have had to close due to pooor buisness, so they found a way to make some money and stay open. Now they're making to much noise. I hope the complainers are golfers and might have to go elsewhere to play. I think the meeting and petitions are a good place to start.
Kathy I don't know how to do it but I've received many a petition on line that you sign and pass on. That maybe a much better way or a helpfull way to start.

[NJblue]

If you bought around a country club, I would think you would have thought about noise and traffic surrounding the CC. BTW, 10pm is not late, most big cities have at least 11pm noise ordinances and some at midnight.

No, if I bought around a CC I would expect an occasional golf ball hitting my house and perhaps the sound of a drunk leaving an indoor bar once in awhile. I would not expect the sounds of a live, outdoor band to fill the air on a regular basis. The distance from the CC to the houses at Havana really isn't that much. It wouldn't take much for a live band or a industrial sized stereo to create a nuisance. There is a very simple solution - move the entrtainment inside. You seem like a very thoughtful and considerate person, I'm surprised that you would expect residents to put up with that noise just so a few can party outdoors rather than indoors.

As to the "big city" issue - note that TV is not in a big city. If people wanted to retire in a big city, then that is what they should expect.
However, when retiring to TV, I don't think people should be subjected to late night noise.

[Whalen]

No, if I bought around a CC I would expect an occasional golf ball hitting my house and perhaps the sound of a drunk leaving an indoor bar once in awhile. I would not expect the sounds of a live, outdoor band to fill the air on a regular basis. The distance from the CC to the houses at Havana really isn't that much. It wouldn't take much for a live band or a industrial sized stereo to create a nuisance. There is a very simple solution - move the entrtainment inside. You seem like a very thoughtful and considerate person, I'm surprised that you would expect residents to put up with that noise just so a few can party outdoors rather than indoors.

As to the "big city" issue - note that TV is not in a big city. If people wanted to retire in a big city, then that is what they should expect.
However, when retiring to TV, I don't think people should be subjected to late night noise.


I live on Odell and my house is closer to Havana than most houses across from the CC.

The noise level is quite tolerable and shifts with the wind, sometimes you can't hear it at all.
And if you really want to block out the noise you can close the lanai door.....
silence.

[NJblue]

I live on Odell and my house is closer to Havana than most houses across from the CC.

The noise level is quite tolerable and shifts with the wind, sometimes you can't hear it at all.
And if you really want to block out the noise you can close the lanai door.....
silence.

Perhaps, but I bicycle around Aberdeen Run a lot and those houses have a beautiful view of the CC. I have also heard the sounds of live bands in a residential neighborhood and know how far the noise travels. If you are on Odell, there is a lot to block the sound of the noise. Those on Aberdeen have bothing to block the noise.

[schotzyb]

I would much prefer to hear music past 8pm than I would to hear lawnmowers mowing grass at 7am but I don't complain about either since I am mature enough to realize the ones producing both these sounds are trying to make a living ; one entertaining and the other beautifying the area.

[Whalen]

Perhaps, but I bicycle around Aberdeen Run a lot and those houses have a beautiful view of the CC. I have also heard the sounds of live bands in a residential neighborhood and know how far the noise travels. If you are on Odell, there is a lot to block the sound of the noise. Those on Aberdeen have bothing to block the noise.


I also have a beautiful view of the CC with only a few skinny trees between us and the out door entertainment.

[NJblue]

I also have a beautiful view of the CC with only a few skinny trees between us and the out door entertainment.
I suggest that you go over to Aberdeen Run the next time that there is outdoor music at the CC and see what the sound levels on their lanais are. I suspect that they are quite loud for "numerous" people to be complaining.

If the music were not stopped, what time would it normally end? You said that people could close their windows if they didn't want to hear it. Perhaps you could force people to do without fresh air and run their AC more - or perhaps the entertainment could be done indoors. This way everyone gets something. (BTW, claiming that we are under a "curfew" is a bit disengenous and misleading.)

[otherbruddaDarrell]

I grew up at Cedar Lake Indiana and we had a place called Midway Ballroom on the lake.
On a nice summer evening you could hear the sounds of the bands coming from across the lake. In the 50's they had big name dance bands, then as time went on they had country,rock, disco etc. It is all torn down now and only a fond memory of mine. :D
I can here the music at Spanish Springs and sometimes I can hear Sumter landing if the wind is blowing this way.
At times I will grab a cocktail and set outside and listen and look at the stars,and enjoy the sounds of the distant music.
If I wanted to live in a place where the streets are rolled up early and everyone toasts with Geritol then I would have bought a home at Sun City Center.
Maybe a compromise would work and allow the music to continue at least on Friday and Sat. nights.
New Years Eve is another night it should be allowed.
Chrissy and I do not stay out late, but I think TV should allow them to have music as long as they keep things to a respectable level.:police:
HEY MORSE>>>>>people buy homes here to have fun and enjoy themselves....take things away and people will look elsewhere to buy.:22yikes:

[NJblue]

I can here the music at Spanish Springs and sometimes I can hear Sumter landing if the wind is blowing this way.
At times I will grab a cocktail and set outside and listen and look at the stars,and enjoy the sounds of the distant music.


Are you a golf shot away from Spanish Springs? When you bought did you know there was going to be outdoor music there? Does it stop at 9 PM? I suspect that until you have heard what the complaining people have complained about it is hard to relate. To automatically assume that the music is a "distant" sound bringing back long ago fond memories may be an improper assumption.

[Halle]

I don't think people should be subjected to late night noise.

I do not consider 9pm LATE NIGHT. If music can be played at the Squares until 9pm I do not believe 10PM for the Country Clubs is unreasonable.

[Yoda]

Perhaps, but I bicycle around Aberdeen Run a lot and those houses have a beautiful view of the CC. I have also heard the sounds of live bands in a residential neighborhood and know how far the noise travels. If you are on Odell, there is a lot to block the sound of the noise. Those on Aberdeen have bothing to block the noise.

Shall the next move be to force the High School band to perform in doors for foot ball games? If you're in Bonybrook and such, those drums are loud!

Yes, move to a new town to have some good retirement fun, then out law all fun but the kind that you like. Did I get it right?

Yoda

[tkret]

Some of you know, I've been upset with the Sheriff's office for months about this situation. What are they thinking? This is absolutely absurd. I have heard its just the Sumter Sheriff's office, not Marion county. At Gator's the other night, the DJ (Patrick) was given a timeline of his deadlines of stopping the music and pulling drinks off the table for the rest of the evening. Are they nuts???

I've written this before and I'll continue to repeat myself.... we're here for retirement and we bought in TV for the activities and music and fun. We pay TAXES.... and this is how we are treated? I'm not a boomer, believe me I'm far from it, but look around, the boomer generation will not stand for this. Neither will all the tremendous talented entertainers that we attract here.

For those in the know (com'on you guys, like Skip, Fumar, l2ride, Steve from NY, etc.) how do we fight this. I have no intention of ending my nights at 8pm!!! Can we start a petition, call the sheriff's office, ALL go to the next Morse meeting to complain? I'm infuriated and I'd like to hear some of your suggestions. We need to reverse this stupid decision IMMEDIATELY.

WOW, you can tell I'm mad huh :swear::swear::swear:


Well written KathieI. I guess when the word gets out to potential buyers they may look elsewhere for a place to retire. Just wondering what those enjoying the low-cost visitor program feel about this situation. The Sales Office must be wondering the same thing.

[NJblue]

If music can be played at the Squares until 9pm I do not believe 10PM for the Country Clubs is unreasonable.
I see it the opposite. People live closer to the CCs without any acustic barriers than they do in the town squares. Also, people who live near the town square bought there knowing that there would be live outdoor music. I'm sure that most buying near a CC would not expect outdoor music. So, if the people here have been fine with the music stopping in the town squares at 9, they should also be considerate of those who live even closer to it and didn't expect when they bought their house. Why should they expect to put up with it later than what the town squares play?

And, what nobody has responded to yet: why can't the party go on inside? Is that too much to ask? Are we really that self-centered that we want to party the way we want - to hell with those who we may bother?

[Yoda]

What about those damned trains.:cus: They blow their horns all night long. Now there is something to curfew.

Yoda

[NJblue]

Yes, move to a new town to have some good retirement fun, then out law all fun but the kind that you like. Did I get it right?

No, you certainly did not get it right. Why not be considerate and move indoors? I wonder how you would feel if a neighbor makes a lot of noise late at night on a regular basis and if you compain about if he were to say, "what are you doing, trying to stop me from having any fun other than what you want?" I certainly thought that people who moved to TV were more considerate than that. Thankfully at least my neighbors are.

[NJblue]

What about those damned trains. They blow their horns all night long. Now there is something to curfew.
Actually that is less of a complaint - people who buy a house near train tracks should expect that noise. Just like people who buy near airports or even the town squares. Plus, there is no way to mitigate the sound of a train whistle (I guess you could not blow it so long), but there is a very easy way to mitigate the sound of a band at a CC - take it indoors.

[KathieI]

I do not consider 9pm LATE NIGHT. If music can be played at the Squares until 9pm I do not believe 10PM for the Country Clubs is unreasonable.

The site that DickY gave us to read, states,

(1) Radios, televisions, musical instruments and similar devices, and amplified human voice. Playing or permitting the playing of any radio, television, musical instrument or similar device, whether amplified or not amplified, or amplifying the human voice in such a manner or with such volume as to annoy or disturb the quiet, comfort and repose of a reasonable person in any type of residence or place of business; provided, however, this prohibition shall not apply to regularly scheduled outdoor entertainment activities in the downtown or urban areas within developments of regional impact, so long as such events terminate not later than 10:00 p.m.

Most nights at Havana do end at 9:30 or 10pm, therefore why do we have to go inside.?????

I don't want to purposely be inconsiderate, but there are always 2 sides to everything. Why should we, who do like to go out, need to be penalized for enjoying music and dancing.

[KathieI]

Talk about patently ridiculous.
BTW -- None of the town squares (nor any portion or them) are in Marion County. Katie Belle's, etc. might be in Lake County, but I wouldn't swear to it one way or the other.

Oops, your right Red. I stand corrected. Just found the map and SS is in Sumter, not Marion. Thanks for the correction. I'll take my chocolate cake back now!!!! LOL.

[NJblue]

this prohibition shall not apply to regularly scheduled outdoor entertainment activities in the downtown or urban areas within developments of regional impact, so long as such events terminate not later than 10:00 p.m.

Clearly no one would claim that any of the CCs are in downtown or urban areas.

Also, note once again, no one is trying to curtail anyone's ability to enjoy music or dancing. To phrase it as such is highly disengenous. However, it appears that what you want to do is also dictate where you do that. If by doing so you cross the threshold of other people's enjoyment of their lives, then it certainly would seem reasonable and considerate to dance and listen to music indoors after a reasonable hour. The issue is what defines a reasonable hour. I said early on the 8 may be a bit early, but I think 9 may be a reasonable compromise. Note that based on the noise ordinace that you quoted above, the police seem to have the ability to completely restrict the outdoor music since the only allowance is for music played in downtown/urban settings. Also, based on this ordinance, this is not a Morse issue but a county issue.

I don't want to purposely be inconsiderate, but there are always 2 sides to everything. I agree completely and that is my point here. I have no dog in this hunt: I do not live within earshot of any CC nor do I know anyone who does. However, I can empathize with those who are and am trying to make those who want to party at night to be aware that these people also have a "side" in the issue. Heck, if no one is bothered by the music, I'd say party till you drop. Unfortunately, it seems that there is another side to the issue and these people are having the quality of their lives disrupted. Hence there is a very simple solution - bring the party indoors.

[billethkid]

could be offended by evening music and festivities......keep two things in mind....those unhappy are in the minority.

As far as the sound and who it reaches or does not reach....how about the petition state as long as the noise is no louder than a train whistle/horn and no later at night than a train whistle/horn, then there is OBVIOUSLY no problem.

How many have called the sherrifs office?
How many have called TV admin offices to see who to address about the issue?

Patience is on their side. They know there will be some initial b-eye-itching and then it will go away.

Example: Remember once upon a time, not too long ago, TV used to keep the squares cranking until midnight to celebrate New Years. It was done for several years and then for reasons known only to the provacateurs....gone....close up now at 9 PM!!! Initial grumbling then the expected silence and sheep like compliance.

No struggle.....NO PROGRESS!!!!!!!!!

btk

[Helene2008]

I pulled this from Municode.com. It contains all the ordinances for Sumter County. I copied only what I thought applied....you can go to municode.com and look in the library section if you want to read the whole ordinance.

Sec. 16-107. Specific prohibitions.
The following specified acts and circumstances are hereby declared to constitute prohibited noise disturbances in violation of this article; provided however, such enumeration is not and shall not be deemed to be exclusive; provided further that all other acts and circumstances meeting the definition of noise disturbance are likewise declared to be in violation of this article.
(1) Radios, televisions, musical instruments and similar devices, and amplified human voice. Playing or permitting the playing of any radio, television, musical instrument or similar device, whether amplified or not amplified, or amplifying the human voice in such a manner or with such volume as to annoy or disturb the quiet, comfort and repose of a reasonable person in any type of residence or place of business; provided, however, this prohibition shall not apply to regularly scheduled outdoor entertainment activities in the downtown or urban areas within developments of regional impact, so long as such events terminate not later than 10:00 p.m.
(2) Neighborhood parties and disturbances. Sounds originating from a residence or residential common area as a result of a party or other activities which may otherwise not be considered a noise disturbance under section 16-105 but arises to a noise disturbance due to the time of day or evening.
(3) Barking dogs. Allowing a dog to bark, howl, or whine continuously between the hours of 9:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. until such noise arises to the level of a noise disturbance under section 16-105. Any person or entity cited for a violation under this specific subsection shall not be subject to the penalties in this article. Instead, any person or entity cited for a violation under this specific subsection shall be subject to the penalties set forth in Chapter 4 of the Sumter County Code.
The sheriff's deputy may defer enforcement against the owner of the animal to animal control in accordance with Chapter 4 of the Sumter County Code if the deputy is unable to personally observe the barking, howling, or whining to determine whether such noise arises to the level of a noise disturbance as defined under section 16-105.
(Ord. No. 2001-6, § 7, 4-10-01; Ord. No. 2004-19, § 1, 7-15-04)

[NJblue]

Maybe those who could be in defense of the few who could be offended by evening music and festivities......keep two things in mind....those unhappy are in the minority.
Damn, you're right. Being in the majority is always license to be inconsiderate. I guess if your neighbors want to party into the night every night and you don't, well you better just suck it up since you are in the minority.

BTW, what's your second point?

[swrinfla]

Wow!

I've been sitting here quietly doing stuff at my computer, and wondering why there were wisps of smoke coming out of it? Then I sign in to TOTV and find out why!

I agree that a curfew of 8pm is, frankly, outrageous. But, excessive noise in my neighborhood after dark would bother me. Maybe that's why I don't live near a country club.

I'm also afraid there are so nasty vibes being generated in this thread. Sad!

SWR
chilout

[billethkid]

intent..."Being in the majority is always license to be inconsiderate"....not what was intended at all....even tongue in cheek-wise!!

It was merely the spirit of the good of the many outweigh the good of the few.
......the way this country used to operate.

Nothing more.

btk

[KathieI]

Wow!
I agree that a curfew of 8pm is, frankly, outrageous. But, excessive noise in my neighborhood after dark would bother me. Maybe that's why I don't live near a country club.

I'm also afraid there are so nasty vibes being generated in this thread. Sad!

SWR
chilout

SW, I don't think there are nasty vibes, just two points of view. I think we're being civil in our responses??? My point is that we are being within the law, the music stops at 10 and its being kept below the decibel level required. I think the next step is to invite Mr. & Mrs. NJBlue to Havana and I'll teach them to dance so they can join in on the fun. That's what I do with my neighbors... Don't you think that's fair???

[NJblue]

It was merely the spirit of the good of the many outweigh the good of the few.
......the way this country used to operate.

Perhaps you would like to take a crack at why the good of the many can't be served just as well indoors? Didn't this country used to operate with a sense of consideration for your fellow neighbor such that with a small concession everyone can be happy?

[Taj44]

Wow!

I've been sitting here quietly doing stuff at my computer, and wondering why there were wisps of smoke coming out of it? Then I sign in to TOTV and find out why!

I agree that a curfew of 8pm is, frankly, outrageous. But, excessive noise in my neighborhood after dark would bother me. Maybe that's why I don't live near a country club.

I'm also afraid there are so nasty vibes being generated in this thread. Sad!

SWR
chilout

I agree. Some nasty comments being posted. But I have to say, I agree with NJBlue. We have many friends in the vicinity of Havana country club, and the music is incredibly loud and carries a far distance. These people bought their homes when the country club was not in operation, so they had no idea there would be such loud evening entertainment. The easy compromise is that the entertainment be put inside after a reasonable hour, say 8:00. These people live in a residential area, not a commercial zone, and they are entitled to quiet time to use their lanai's too. On the other hand, I see no reason that outdoor entertainment needs to be curtailed on the square. That is a commercial zone, and such noise would be expected. Thank you NJBlue for being the voice of reason here.

[chuckinca]

Oops, your right Red. I stand corrected. Just found the map and SS is in Sumter, not Marion. Thanks for the correction. I'll take my chocolate cake back now!!!! LOL.



Women Drivers!

SS is in Lake County.

The eastern edge of Hacienda Hills CC is on the North/South county line between Sumter and Lake Ctys; SS is to the east of there and in Lake Cty.

Give the cake back.


LOL.

[NJblue]

Thank you NJBlue for being the voice of reason here.
Thanks. Actually, my first response to the OP was like most here - how dare they squelch people's desire to have a good time. However, then I thought of the people who live nearby and asked myself if I lived there, would I be a happy camper. The answer was a resounding no - especially when the solution is so easily achieved.

[ejp52]

Why don't the people complaining about the noise stay inside?
That was the solution recommended for the country clubs,seems fair,right? :popcorn:

[graciegirl]

Wow!

I've been sitting here quietly doing stuff at my computer, and wondering why there were wisps of smoke coming out of it? Then I sign in to TOTV and find out why!

I agree that a curfew of 8pm is, frankly, outrageous. But, excessive noise in my neighborhood after dark would bother me. Maybe that's why I don't live near a country club.

I'm also afraid there are so nasty vibes being generated in this thread. Sad!

SWR
chilout

Nicely said. Before you buy you really need to think a lot about location.

[diskman]

I agree. Some nasty comments being posted. But I have to say, I agree with NJBlue. We have many friends in the vicinity of Havana country club, and the music is incredibly loud and carries a far distance. These people bought their homes when the country club was not in operation, so they had no idea there would be such loud evening entertainment. The easy compromise is that the entertainment be put inside after a reasonable hour, say 8:00. These people live in a residential area, not a commercial zone, and they are entitled to quiet time to use their lanai's too. On the other hand, I see no reason that outdoor entertainment needs to be curtailed on the square. That is a commercial zone, and such noise would be expected. Thank you NJBlue for being the voice of reason here.

if I were one of these club owners
I would secure a location outside of TV and do one hell of a business with less expensive overhead, it can't fail!:boxing2:

[skip0358]

You're right if my neighbor had late night parties I'd be annoyed. However my neighbor is ony 10 to 15 feet away from me. That's why I bought in a residential area not near a square or a country club. I looked before I bought. I didn't want someone walking or riding in my back yard, I went to several country clubs before I bought, they had crowds, food, dancing and music. You said bring it inside so I suppose we throw the diners outside then. 8PM is an unreasonable time, 10 PM is exceptable. Some people like to sleep late so I guess they should complain about the lawn getting cut, the garbage truck, the cement trucks, the generators etc. The Villages is what it is because of what's here which is why must people bought here. If it's noisy let's find a reasonable hour not 8PM that all can agree to. Weekends should be different as should New Years Eve. Last week people were complaining about the bombing runs in Ocala. What's next?? I like my house, I have great neighbors and plan on a long future here, I'm back up North for a few weeks visitng and I can certainly tell you I rember why I moved and can't wait to get back home to Bonita.

[BobKat1]

Since TV is primarily a retirement community, it seems fair to consider that when addressing potential noise issues.

Taking thngs inside at a prescribed time (10:00 PM?) sounds fair to me.

[Sydney]

This is a Sumter County issue. The county Commissioners are holding a monthly meeting :
Title: Board of County Commissioners - Regular Meeting
Date: November 24, 2009
Address: 510 Colony Boulevard
The Villages, FL 32162
Location: Colony Cottage Recreation Center, Parlor Room
Hours: 5:00 PM
Contact: 352-793-0200
Email: Jessica.douglas@sumtercountyfl.gov
Maybe attending this meeting is an opportunity to bring something up to the powers that be. I don't know how open these meetings are. An interesting figure in today's paper shows the county population at about 95,000. The Villages probably constitutes the majority of the population.

Sumter County Link: http://www.sumtercountyfl.gov/index.aspx

The County Code showing beverage laws are accessable here.

Good Job DickY, everyone does need to show up in force as well as get the signatures for a petition. I know as a fact County Commissioners’ will sit a little straighter when their meeting is overran with upset constituents.:mad:

[nONIE]

:I think very soon the evening temps will drop considerably and people will not want to be outside at all! In the meantime, 8:00 seems like a ridiculous hour to end the entertainment, we are adults now, not children , and deserve to be treated as such.:ohdear:

[Xavier]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dYpnd_9TFs

:wave::wave::wave::wave::wave:

[Talk Host]

Good Job DickY, everyone does need to show up in force as well as get the signatures for a petition. I know as a fact County Commissioners’ will sit a little straighter when their meeting is overran with upset constituents.:mad:


Unfortunately petitions do not work. They are a big waste of time.

[beady]

An 8 p.m. curfew is obsured
Why do a majority of the residents have to suffer because the residents close to the country clubs didn't take into consideration the possibility of noise from events, and parties. Sort of reminds me of the folks that bought a house next to a gas station and then petitioned the city to close it down. Totally absurd.
Petitions are somewhat effective. A large presence at a commissioners meeting is, in your face, and very effective. Sounds like a need to attend that meeting at Colony and politely and intelligently make a case for a change in the ordinance.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

G'nite y'all
It is 8:24 and past my bedtime.:1rotfl:

[NJblue]

Why do a majority of the residents have to suffer because the residents close to the country clubs didn't take into consideration the possibility of noise from events, and parties. Are there any other CCs that have outside entertainment past 9 PM? If not, how would anyone buying next to a CC know what to expect? I know that when we were on our lifestyle preview the two CCs that we dined at closed down after 9 PM. Base on that, I would be totally surprised to see outdoor entertainment after 9:00 at any CC.

Still no one is seriously responding as to why it can't be moved indoors. No one is suggesting that the sidewalks need to be rolled up at 9, just move the noise indoors. It doesn't seem to be much of a sacrifice to me.

I will say that it seems, based on the reading of the law, that the law is on the side of the neighbors - that there is no provision for outside entertainment at all except for downtown environments. Hence, I would be a bit cautious about petitions and protests. Under the current law, it seems that they would be within their rights to close down the entertainment completely. If you rile up the bees' nest, the net result may be no entertainment outside at all.

One other thing: many have claimed that it is the majority who want the music to last longer into the night. Is that really the case? Based on my observations, the vast majority of TV is in their jammies at 9 PM. Almost all of the restaurants are deserted by 9, the town squares are empty and the streets are deserted. No one can honestly say that based on their experiences that when they bought into the TV lifestyle that they thought it was going to be some sort of Las Vegas or NY atmosphere. Yes, a few people want to stay out later and there should be indoor places for them to go, but they are a very distinct minority.

[carm310]

I was hoping to relive my party animal teen years again....darn :pepper2:

I didn't believe this could possibly be true when I saw the thread earlier today, but I am convinced now. Wow.... It is 8:10 in the Midwest...I'm heading to bed. :wave: Good Night!

[kaydee]

It is always the few whiners who seem to have waaaaay toooooo much time on their hands and therefore spend a great deal of time making others miserable. That same group of whiners must be those that cross our paths daily who have the attitude that they can do any thing they want such as continually break the rules of the road etc because THEY are VILLAGERS. Thankfully there isn't many of them but enough to be a pain and yes, they are the ones who speakup. Living in the Polo Ridge area for several years now and the LOUD music most Friday nights coming from the Polo Fields well past not only 8pm but well past 9 and 10pm, usually quits around 11pm, has not been a problem for us nor have I ever heard any complaints from any of my neighbors. On a good night when the wind is blowing in just the right direction one can even hear people laughing and having a good time. We would hate to think that the "crazy 8pm curfew" will be putting a stop to those fun social events as well as any other in TV, Just had to vent and put my 2 cents worth.

[Ooper]

Are there any other CCs that have outside entertainment past 9 PM? If not, how would anyone buying next to a CC know what to expect? I know that when we were on our lifestyle preview the two CCs that we dined at closed down after 9 PM. Base on that, I would be totally surprised to see outdoor entertainment after 9:00 at any CC.


But we are not talking 9:00 here. 9:00 wouldn't be bad... but 8:00 is absurd! It is not even dark out most of the year at 8:00. And, granted, as a previous poster said, most of the restaurants are pretty empty at 9. That's because they close early. Even Beef-O-Brady's, a sports bar, throws every body out early for Monday Night Football.... Go figure!

[Irish Rover]

Holy Cannoli Batman, all of us snow birds are in for culture shock come January. Is TV becoming a geriatric haven? Please say it isn't so.:sad:

[NJblue]

But we are not talking 9:00 here. 9:00 wouldn't be bad... but 8:00 is absurd! It is not even dark out most of the year at 8:00. And, granted, as a previous poster said, most of the restaurants are pretty empty at 9. That's because they close early. Even Beef-O-Brady's, a sports bar, throws every body out early for Monday Night Football.... Go figure!

I have already acknowledged that 9 PM may be a reasonable limit. The reason that the restaurants are empty at 9 isn't because they are closing. They are closing because they are empty. I'm sure if a lot of patrons wanted to dine past 9:00 any smart restaurant owner would comply.

[NJblue]

Holy Cannoli Batman, all of us snow birds are in for culture shock come January. Is TV becoming a geriatric haven? Please say it isn't so.:sad:

I don't think anything has changed since last winter. The concept of outdoor entertainment in the CCs is a recent phenomenon as far as I can tell.

[Mallory]

I have to believe that many of us moved from (insert your northern city here) to Florida so we could spend time outdoors having fun and not have to be cooped up inside all the time.

We live very close to Mallory, bought before there was much entertainment over there, and welcome it. The noise level is low and there is a lot of good to be said about sitting on your lanai in the evening with some nice music in the background.

Unfortunately, we have become a nation of people who have given up their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness when a few complain. We have allowed our governments and agencies to set policies that do not promote the common good. We've given these groups too much power to set rules, regulations, and community standards; unfortunately, I don't think the tide and be stopped.

[Whalen]

"Still no one is seriously responding as to why it can't be moved indoors. No one is suggesting that the sidewalks need to be rolled up at 9, just move the noise indoors. It doesn't seem to be much of a sacrifice to me."

Two reasons I can think of:

1. It's not as easy as it looks. Equipment has to be knocked down and then set up again, very time consuming,

2. there is no place to dance!

If you look carefully at the new CCs are all relatively the same with different paint schemes.
There is no dance floor or band stand inside.

These are just my observations, please correct me if I am wrong.

[Larryandlinda]

"Still no one is seriously responding as to why it can't be moved indoors. No one is suggesting that the sidewalks need to be rolled up at 9, just move the noise indoors. It doesn't seem to be much of a sacrifice to me."

Two reasons I can think of:

1. It's not as easy as it looks. Equipment has to be knocked down and then set up again, very time consuming,

2. there is no place to dance!

If you look carefully at the new CCs are all relatively the same with different paint schemes.
There is no dance floor or band stand inside.

These are just my observations, please correct me if I am wrong.
This must be the most followed topic ever.
Our place is out of earshot but when visiting friends (who never use any AC or heat so windows open most of the time) in Va Trace we hear the LSL evening gigs til 9 and it's no biggie.
maybe crank down the pot on the mixer a couple notches and see if the partiers throw tomatoes.
Or, give out wireless earbuds or hearing aids.
Let the band play on, especially if it's live!
L and L

[zcaveman]

Oops, your right Red. I stand corrected. Just found the map and SS is in Sumter, not Marion. Thanks for the correction. I'll take my chocolate cake back now!!!! LOL.

Recheck your map - SS is in Lake County.

[NJblue]

Two reasons I can think of:

1. It's not as easy as it looks. Equipment has to be knocked down and then set up again, very time consuming,

2. there is no place to dance!

If you look carefully at the new CCs are all relatively the same with different paint schemes.
There is no dance floor or band stand inside.

These are just my observations, please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for the serious reply.

1) equipment can be moved. We were having dinner outdoors at the Lighthouse when the sky was threatening rain. The musicians said that they would start playing outdoors, but if it started to rain they wanted everyone to pitch in and bring the stuff indoors. Not a problem.

2) So the people who built the CC cheaped out on their design with the intent of encroaching on their neighbors' rights to solitude? Yet we are taking the side of the business that cheaped out rather than the neighbors? (BTW, I drove by that area this afternoon and the neighbors are even closer to the club than I had originally thought. At first I thought it might be a Tiger Woods 1 wood shot, but now I think even I could do it with an 8 or 9 iron.)

[skip0358]

As I said earlier and was repeated by another poster what do you do with the people eating inside tell them to leave?? If this is such a big problem to so few people, maybe when new clubs are built and there will be many more. No homes should be built in close proximity to possible noise. If a country club or anyplace else wants to use outside entertainment to raise funds to stay in buisness so ALL can enjoy them then so be it. Next you'll be wanting the fire trucks and ambulances to stop using red lights and sirens to respond to your calls for help' Give it a rest, 8 PM is just nuts, even the town squares play later then that. Maybe we'll have to move them inside to. The majority of the people moved to TV for what was here.We saw the lifestyle it was great and should be kept that way. If you paid a premium to life close to the country club you get what you get. Golf Balls, Golf Carts, People in your yard, traffic and yeh some noise.

[sschuler1]

As someone who owned a business for many years, I can answer your question, NJ. If you are going to pay top dollar for rent, you are going to utilize all areas that you are paying for to maximize your profits. When the weather is nice, patrons that want to enjoy outdoor entertainment can be accomodated on their patios. The noise of the music will also draw patrons to their establishments. They can then continue to serve the regular patrons undisturbed indoors. I have to admit if I was running the establishment, that I would be doing exactly the same thing. It makes good business sense!

I also understand your stand about noise after a reasonable hour, but I have to agree with most people that 10 pm is a reasonable time for ceasation of loud noise. When we were choosing a lot to purchase for our home we drove around the neighborhood to check noise levels. We came past at different times of the day to see all the various activities and traffic levels that occured near our location of choice. We were more concerned about early morning noise, and wanted to make sure that we were not near a pickleball court. Since we are not morning people that was our main concern, and we made sure that we bought in the right area. The maps that are available are very detailed about what is going to be built in the future, so we feel very secure knowing that no other rec center is going to be built close to us. But if one was built near us in the future, do you think they could play their pickleball inside until around 11 am? I would sure appreciate that!

By the way, I don't think the restaurants around here are aware that there are customers around here that want to eat after 9 pm because they are already closed and don't see them walking away from their doors. We moved here at the end of August and tried to find places that would serve food after 9 pm, and had to make do with Wendy's in our hotel room many nights. :icon_hungry:

[Freeda]

Here are some of my thoughts about this.

First, I think some clarification of the facts would help. It was said that even music INSIDE at, for example, Big City Grill, stopping at 1 AM, was being stopped, or complained about, by the authorities; if so, it's hard to understand the reason for that, and I found that bothersome. (Margarita Republic, for example, stays open at least that late, doesn't it, without any problems?) And if that is the case, isn't it likely that the CC's and other restaurants would have the same complaints, even if the music were inside? So clarifying with the restaurant owners where the music IS being played inside, and yet is still being objected to, as to exactly what they are being told by the authorities as the basis for complaint would be important to understanding what is motivating the complaints; and, more importantly, how to solve them.

Personally, I have neighbors very near who play outdoor music late in the evening at times, and it doesn't bother us or intrude at all, and our hearing is fine; and if I wanted to not hear the music at all, closing my doors would drown it out completely. We live right across from Lopez, where there is outdoor music at times at night; I cannot hear it unless I am outside, when I hear it faintly, although I can still hear the nightbirds singing at the lake; and when I do, I like the music rather than dead silence. It is hard for me to believe that the level of music I have heard at country club patio areas would be intrusive to even the nearest homes, so I wonder what the number of complaints actually is, which could possibly be learned by going to the meeting that was discussed (unfortunately, the Nov. 24 meeting mentioned in some of the posts is on a date when some of us will be away for Thanksgiving). We are not talking about loud rock bands, but usually karaoke singing or combo groups - not loud heavy metal-type music.

Yes, this is a retirement community, but that sort of begs the question. After all, retirement communities, especially of the type that TV is, are a new creation, and should be governed only by what can best serve the reasonable expectations of retirees of all ages and sentiments; and that means most of us are not going to be perfectly thrilled with everything, but we should come here willing to accept certain 'not ideal to us' things because of the overwhelming benefits we have from living here - and to me, the balance is far in favor of the benefit. Retirement should mean more, not less, freedom. We are retired; not done in. For many people retirement means freedom from the career years when their entire lives had to revolve around a work schedule - at last, the freedom to stay out late with friends, even on weeknights, if one chooses; and shouldn't mean being able to expect a 'shush'ed environment after 8 PM at night (just as we couldn't expect, or demand, that if we lived otherwhere than TV in retirement). I think it is a reasonable expectation that most people moved to TV because of the ability to socialize freely with others who moved here for the same reason. (After all, weren't we the sock-hop generations?) We aren't bedding down babies here. People who want and expect absolute peace and quiet should not, in my opinion, move to a retirement community; they should move to the country, and then drive in their car to a golf course to play.

The work of moving an entire music setup and re-setting it up inside, including the wear and tear on the equipment, is not practical to expect on a regular basis; and many customers will have up and left during such a long interruption in the music.

Plus, the CC's inside are restaurants, and many of them built their dance floors on the patio so that diners could converse while dining; and dancing could be done outside - after all, this is Florida, as we all knew when we moved here! Outdoor living and entertainment is a reasonable expectation for anyone who moved here.

I would say limits of 10 PM for outdoor music on weeknights, midnight for outdoor music on weekends would be reasonable - and whoever is bothered by it should close their windows, and get over it. And no limit on the cut-off time for indoor music (why should this be decided by anyone other than the business owner?)

I think that if these decisions, within parameters along this line, were left to the business owners, the 'problem' would gradually work itself out, as the people who do like night-life would gradually congregate at consensus places, and those businesses that are not getting the late-nighters would choose to close earlier, ie, let the market correct itself. For example, it might become the norm that a certain business is 'the place' to go on Monday night, another business the next, etc. That way the noise 'problem', if it is a problem as perceived by some people, might, at least, move from place to place on different nights.

Finally; hugs always help to figure out solutions at times like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4

[NJblue]

The majority of the people moved to TV for what was here.We saw the lifestyle it was great and should be kept that way.
The strange thing is that this is probably the precise point that the neighbors to Havana are making. To my knowledge there has been no history of outdoor entertainment past 8 or 9 in the country clubs. Hence what is changing is not the residents sudden request for tranquility, but the recent addition of outdoor entertainment in the late evening. So, yeah, people came here, saw what it was like to live near a CC and decided to buy. Too bad their neighbors want to change the rules on them after they laid out their life's savings.

[dillywho]

Maybe I missed it, but where in the quoted/pasted ordinance does it say 8:00? Everything I read says "no later than 10 p.m.". Did I miss something? Where/who did the magic hour of 8 p.m. come from?

[ejp52]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Villages own the CC's and lease them?

[bluedog103]

Sounds to me like a few whining busybodies have way too much to say about how the rest of the community lives. I live out in the country in a farming area. Very often the city folk move out here and complain about the farmer across the road spreading manure. The farm was always there but the manure wasn't being applied when they looked at the property. Gets comical. There's a racetrack nearby. Folks buy in the winter then whine about the noise and dust when racing starts in the spring. Duh.
Folks, you and you alone are responsible for doing your homework. Country clubs in every place I've ever lived have outdoor patios where entertainment is provided in good weather. If you buy next to a pig farm, don't expect the pigs to change their behavior because of your poor judgement.

[NJblue]

Maybe I missed it, but where in the quoted/pasted ordinance does it say 8:00? Everything I read says "no later than 10 p.m.". Did I miss something? Where/who did the magic hour of 8 p.m. come from?

You're right, there is no magic hour of 8 PM. The law states that outdoor entertainment that is an annoyance is prohibited at all hours - except for downtown areas where it can be until 10 PM.

Radios, televisions, musical instruments and similar devices, and amplified human voice. Playing or permitting the playing of any radio, television, musical instrument or similar device, whether amplified or not amplified, or amplifying the human voice in such a manner or with such volume as to annoy or disturb the quiet, comfort and repose of a reasonable person in any type of residence or place of business; provided, however, this prohibition shall not apply to regularly scheduled outdoor entertainment activities in the downtown or urban areas within developments of regional impact, so long as such events terminate not later than 10:00 p.m.

[dillywho]

So then what about Big City, etc. They are downtown.

[NJblue]

I have no idea what restriction they want to or are trying to impose downtown. However, as vociferous as I have been in defending the neighbors complaining about outdoor music at a CC, I am dead against any restrictions against music inside in a townsquare location. This is what the townsquares were set up to accomodate and businesses should be free to entertain there.

[KathieI]

Tonight the karaoke singers at Havana were keeping the music to a very low level and STILL the same person called 2 times to management to complain...??? This was around 8:30pm??? I think these people are getting a kick out of getting the police force out after us for no reason whatsoever when they should be doing their jobs on important matters. This is definitely a joke. The decibel level tonight, I saw for myself, was way below what is mandated by the codes.

If we let this continue, we stand the chance that the minority will convince the powers that be that ANY entertainment should not be outside at all and definitely not after 8:30 pm.... I agree with Whalen who started this thread, it isn't easy to move the equipment and people inside and why should we if we are complying with the codes. This whole thread is very enlightening and its obvious that the majority seem to want the music and are not disturbed by the noise.

[NJblue]

I also understand your stand about noise after a reasonable hour, but I have to agree with most people that 10 pm is a reasonable time for ceasation of loud noise. When we were choosing a lot to purchase for our home we drove around the neighborhood to check noise levels. We came past at different times of the day to see all the various activities and traffic levels that occured near our location of choice. We were more concerned about early morning noise, and wanted to make sure that we were not near a pickleball court. Since we are not morning people that was our main concern, and we made sure that we bought in the right area. The maps that are available are very detailed about what is going to be built in the future, so we feel very secure knowing that no other rec center is going to be built close to us. But if one was built near us in the future, do you think they could play their pickleball inside until around 11 am? I would sure appreciate that!
:

Yes, most people do due diligence when they buy. However, when the neighbors to Havana were buying their homes, Havana was not yet in operation. If they had checked other CCs in TV they would have seen that they typically close up at around 8:30 or 9 at night. So, had you done your due diligence and were concerned about loud music at night, you would have felt comfortable buying near Havana, only to be sorely disappointed later.

[Donna]

I live very close to the Havana CC..I must admit there are times (infrequently) the music is a bit loud..I enjoy the music, and find it entertaining..:pepper2:

I knew when I bought near a CC this was inevitable..I agree with a reasonable curfew, but certainly NOT 8:00.That is redundant!!!:cus:

[NJblue]

This whole thread is very enlightening and its obvious that the majority seem to want the music and are not disturbed by the noise.
How can you tell if they are disturbed by the noise? They don't live on Aberdeen Run. There have been anecdotes from people who live "near" the polo grounds or Nancy Lopez or Mallory, but we don't know how near. We also don't know at what hours the music was being played or how frequently.

[Freeda]

. . . "Playing or permitting the playing of any radio, television, musical instrument or similar device, whether amplified or not amplified, or amplifying the human voice in such a manner or with such volume as to annoy or disturb the quiet, comfort and repose of a reasonable person in any type of residence or place of business . . . "

This ordinance language answers nothing, because it is ambiguous and arbitrary . . ie, who is to say who is the fabled 'reasonable' person?

Further, the ordinance language does not proscribe ALL noise - rather, it forbids only noise at such a 'manner' or 'volume' (etc) that would bother a 'reasonable' person. This presumes that some level of sound must be expected to be tolerated by the hearer; the language does not lend itself to being able to demand total silence as the only standard that meets the test of the ordinance - if it did mean that, then the word 'reasonable' would be surplusage. Thus, merely showing that someone can hear some music is not, in and of itself, violative of the ordinance; just as we can't forbid birds singing, mowers mowing, golfers talking and laughing, etc.

[Donna]

"just as we can't forbid birds singing, mowers mowing, golfers talking and laughing, etc."

That might be next!!!

[KathieI]

Agree, I live near a golf course and maybe I should complain that the golfers yelling FORE!! (is that how its spelled???) is disturbing and they need to whisper it???????? And, yes, Donna, I can hear them laughing and talking.... STOP IT, NOW, ITS BOTHERING ME!!!

[KathieI]

Freeda, does this answer your question about the level of the noise in question??

(4) In determining whether a noise is unreasonably loud and disturbing, the following factors incident to such noise can be considered, in addition to such others as the enforcing authority deems relevant:

a. Time of day.

b. Proximity to residential structures.

c. Whether the noise is recurrent, intermittent, or constant.

d. The volume and intensity of the noise.

e. Whether the noise has been enhanced in volume or range by any type of electronic or mechanical means.

(5) Specifically, a noise source shall be considered a prohibited "noise disturbance" under the provisions of this chapter if it generates decibel levels greater than sixty (60) decibels in any residential or multifamily residential neighborhood at a point located one thousand (1,000) feet from the location generating the noise, or decibel levels greater than seventy-five (75) decibels at a point located one thousand (1,000) feet from the location generating the noise, regardless of the surrounding land use. Decibel levels shall be measured by an officer of the Sumter County Sheriff's Department, using equipment specifically designed for decibel measurement.

[Freeda]

. . . and, oooooohhh . . the incessant honks of those geese - they must be made to hold it down, or they are out of here, too!

[Freeda]

Freeda, does this answer your question about the level of the noise in question??

(4) In determining whether a noise is unreasonably loud and disturbing, the following factors incident to such noise can be considered, in addition to such others as the enforcing authority deems relevant:

a. Time of day.

b. Proximity to residential structures.

c. Whether the noise is recurrent, intermittent, or constant.

d. The volume and intensity of the noise.

e. Whether the noise has been enhanced in volume or range by any type of electronic or mechanical means.

(5) Specifically, a noise source shall be considered a prohibited "noise disturbance" under the provisions of this chapter if it generates decibel levels greater than sixty (60) decibels in any residential or multifamily residential neighborhood at a point located one thousand (1,000) feet from the location generating the noise, or decibel levels greater than seventy-five (75) decibels at a point located one thousand (1,000) feet from the location generating the noise, regardless of the surrounding land use. Decibel levels shall be measured by an officer of the Sumter County Sheriff's Department, using equipment specifically designed for decibel measurement.





(5) is an objective test, assuming an accurate meter; and you had said in an earlier post that the sound volume at Havana on Monday night at 8:30 was less than that allowed by (5) standard, so I feel that should have been the end of the complaint.

To me (4) is arbitrary to the extent that it would be interpreted to proscribe music levels that comply with the standard of (5), at least during reasonable hours, which to me, as I mentioned in an earlier post, would be 10 PM weeknights and midnight on weekends. I don't see that parts (4) b, c, d, and e add anything that is not already covered by the sound level standard of (5), ie, if the sound level complies with the test that is allowed by (5), why should it matter whether it is constant vs. intermittent, or what its 'proximity' is to residences?

[Blondie]

I understand that thoughtful people (that is people who think) can disagree; however; if the noise level and hours of outdoor entertainment are reasonable (as defined by law) there should be no issue.

I also realize that some folks will never be satisfied until their mission is accomplished. I, for one, love all the music that embodies this wonderful place in which we are fortunate enough to live. I sincerely hope that this joy will not be sucked out of The Villages by a few unreasonable folks (as defined by me).

[Donna]

I understand that thoughtful people (that is people who think) can disagree; however; if the noise level and hours of outdoor entertainment are reasonable (as defined by law) there should be no issue.

I also realize that some folks will never be satisfied until their mission is accomplished. I, for one, love all the music that embodies this wonderful place in which we are fortunate enough to live. I sincerely hope that this joy will not be sucked out of The Villages by a few unreasonable folks (as defined by me).

Very well put!!!!:agree:

[chelsea24]

I just read all the posts and I absolutely agree that 8pm is ridiculous! We are not children. We've worked hard all of our lives to enjoy our "golden years." TV is made up of homes, not nursing homes!

But, hold onto your hat NJBlue. People are reaching their "golden years" at a younger and younger age. The wave of baby boomers (of which I'm one) hasn't even hit yet. I was lucky enough to move down here a bit earlier. When the baby boomers hit TV, everything will start staying open later and later. Back in Chicago, we were just going out to dinner at 8pm. Music and dancing after. We're not pups, but we're not dead yet either!

When we were here on our lifestyle previews, we were always so tired from looking at houses, I really didn't notice the streets rolling up at 9. Then when we first moved here, I remember walking through LSL after 9pm saying "You've got to be kidding! Where are the peeps!" I thought we bought into some strange horror movie! :laugh:

But, now, two years later, we have just started to find places open like Havana and Gators. I say "Yipeeeeee!" And, though there is some complaining now, I truly believe this is just the beginning of the trend to have entertainment stay open, at the very least until 10pm.

Times... they are a'changin'..... And I think for the better. It's probably two old f*rts, that either can't find the energy or their teeth to go out and join the party!

Hey, I look at this as more of a "Resort" community. The people we pal around with are young at heart, lively and not in their jammie's at 8pm. And, HELL YES, we want to be outside! That's why we bought in Florida!

This too shall pass. If there is a protest, I'll join it. If there is a petition, I'll sign it. These moaners should have carefully considered this before they bought. Maybe Havana wasn't active yet, but the potential for "music and joy" was there.

To future buyers: If you see tracks, ask about the train. If you're near a CC or Rec Center, ask about any late night entertainment or noise. If you see a highway (like we have) gauge the traffic! For God's sake use your brain and don't complain later!!!

And, oh baby..... couldn't someone open up a nice, sultry piano bar for really late night pleasure and a night cap! ;)

[CJ]

I love good music...especially dancing to a live band. This issue tugs at my heart as I recognize we need more nightly entertainment here in TV. 9pm is too early to pack it in....wish the powers that be would let the town square stay open til 10pm. Havana has a great idea about music and dancing...maybe there is a middle ground....they can enclose the area outside which will accomodate the neighbors who decided to move here to sleep at 8pm and let the party roll for the rest of TV?

The area is large and hardly used during the day anyway.

[DDoug]

I live in Virginia Tr. and I can hear the music from LSL and now with the windows open we even know what the songs are should I complain what the h--- for, I dont want you people to have any fun. Be real folks. Maybe the CC are eating away at the square business.

[nanci2539]

I had to respond to this! We have freinds who back up to the Havana Country Club. They do not mind the music or noise because to them it's enjoyable and for the most part, the "people" noise stops around 9-9:30. The music stops at 9PM.

Now this isn't an issue for them but what is are the frogs croaking at night, non stop. Put hundreds of frogs in a pond, trust me, it sounds like a squeaky baby toy that's magnified. It goes on all night. They can't even sit in their lanai because the noise over powers any conversation you want to have. And they can't keep their windows open at night either. Until you hear this, you can't believe it's that annoying.

And, the country clubs send in their cleaners in the middle of the night. The residents that back up to the club were awaken by banging and yelling in the wee hours of the morning. This they complained about and for the most part, I think it stopped or they work very quietly now.

The post about contacting Gary Morse about the curfew would get a response. Mr. Morse does not like complaints. I find the best avenue is to email him directly. The emails go to his assistant but she does bring any resident issues to him. I bet if he got a hundred or so emails about this (the curfew), he'll do something.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

I live in Virginia Tr. and I can hear the music from LSL and now with the windows open we even know what the songs are should I complain what the h--- for, I dont want you people to have any fun. Be real folks. Maybe the CC are eating away at the square business.


It does appear that the squares do not have as many people for this time of the year.(business)
I would think the "free" music that is provided costs them around $500-$2500 per night depending on the group.
If the squares do not generate enough interest then it might cause the powers to be to curtail it.
I did not move here for the music that the CC's might provide, I moved here because of the lifestyle which includes the entertainment on the squares.
Everyone that moved here knows that the music is over at 9pm.
That is a reasonable time for outside music.
Support the squares and preserve what we have before we have to start whining about not having entertainment there.chilout

[Talk Host]

I have had some experience in using a "decibel measuring device" to determine if noise is exceeding the allowable level.

Here's the issue. Where do you position the device to take the measurement? (absolute versus relative) Do you stand at the origin of the noise? Do you walk a block away? Do you go to the home of the complainant and get into bed with them?

A 120 decibel reading at the bandstand is much less a block away.

Noise ordinance enforcement is a new phenomenon. If 8 p.m. music shutdowns are made to stick, then it is also a violation for you to ride your Harley Davidson after 8 p.m. Laughter can exceed 100 decibels too. So, if you think something is funny after 8 p.m., stifle the laugh until the next morning. Remember too that normal conversation is 70 to 80 decibels and shouting is 90 decibels.

But consider this, a train whistle exceeds 120 decibels at the horn but is 90 decibels at 500'. Music on a bandstand is 120-150 decibels, so, it too, is about 90 decibels at 500'. Anything over 80 decibels is considered hazardous.

If a tree falls in a forest and the noise exceeds 80 decibels and it's after 8 p.m. but there is nobody there to hear it, is it a violation of the noise ordinance.

[scottke]

After reading all of these posts I am amazed at many of them. We bought a beautiful home and the lifestyle that went with it. We aren't on the Mallory golf course but we can hear music (granted it doesn't go late) from there and isn't it great! We can still hear! A reasonable hour to us isn't 8:00. We like the square and then like to go to the CC's if there is no early tee time the next day. 10:00 seems more than fair for adults. 8:00 - pleeeze. We're behind anything that needs to be done to make this reasonable for all.

[DDoug]

It's fun sometimes to read this site but in this case what really is the issue.I work full time and I go to bed around 9 or so if there is some noise you close your windows what IS the big deal.

[djplong]

remember the "reasonable person" clause?

Well if, as someone posted uptopic, it's the SAME *ONE* person calling at 8:30 - and ONLY that person, then you can start to believe that one person does not "reasonable" make. If it were a lot of people, then you'd have an better argument.

ONE person out of a neighborhood complaining tells me that the definition of "reasonable" doesn't qualify (in absence of any other information). A whole neighborhood calling? Different story.

[NJblue]

remember the "reasonable person" clause?

Well if, as someone posted uptopic, it's the SAME *ONE* person calling at 8:30 - and ONLY that person, then you can start to believe that one person does not "reasonable" make. If it were a lot of people, then you'd have an better argument.

ONE person out of a neighborhood complaining tells me that the definition of "reasonable" doesn't qualify (in absence of any other information). A whole neighborhood calling? Different story.
I agree with this analysis. Note that the original post in this epic talked about "numerous" complaints. If these were all from the same person we may be able to write it off as a crank. However, if the numerous complaints came from numerous people then perhaps they have an issue.

[Freeda]

I have had some experience in using a "decibel measuring device" to determine if noise is exceeding the allowable level.

Here's the issue. Where do you position the device to take the measurement? (absolute versus relative) Do you stand at the origin of the noise? Do you walk a block away? Do you go to the home of the complainant and get into bed with them?

A 120 decibel reading at the bandstand is much less a block away.

Noise ordinance enforcement is a new phenomenon. If 8 p.m. music shutdowns are made to stick, then it is also a violation for you to ride your Harley Davidson after 8 p.m. Laughter can exceed 100 decibels too. So, if you think something is funny after 8 p.m., stifle the laugh until the next morning. Remember too that normal conversation is 70 to 80 decibels and shouting is 90 decibels.

But consider this, a train whistle exceeds 120 decibels at the horn but is 90 decibels at 500'. Music on a bandstand is 120-150 decibels, so, it too, is about 90 decibels at 500'. Anything over 80 decibels is considered hazardous.

If a tree falls in a forest and the noise exceeds 80 decibels and it's after 8 p.m. but there is nobody there to hear it, is it a violation of the noise ordinance.

Those numbers give us some help. The ordinance standard that was quoted last night was:

" . . if it generates decibel levels greater than sixty (60) decibels in any residential or multifamily residential neighborhood at a point located one thousand (1,000) feet from the location generating the noise . . . "

If music on a bandstand, which I presume means a full band, which I believe would be louder than the typical music that is playing at the CC's or restaurants here, dissipates from 120-150 decibels to becoming only 90 decibels at 500', then at another 500' distance (referring to the 1000' distance used in the ordinance) one would think that that sound level would dissipate to less than 60 decibels (the standard).

Assuming that is true, the lesser level of sound from the typical music being played outside here in TV, which is probably much less than that of a full band playing outdoors, would probably have to be less than 60 decibels at 1000 feet away.

(1000 feet is nearly 3 football fields! The next question is . . . are there homes within 1000 feet of the CC's/ restaurants?)

I don't know how the meters work, but it would seem to me you would have to measure the 1000 feet distance from the source, and take a reading at that distance (which would seem to be the most accurate); unless the meters are able to project for distance reading.

(Maybe a decibel meter will become a standard accessory for going out for the evening in TV?)

[MelZ]

I agree with this analysis. Note that the original post in this epic talked about "numerous" complaints. If these were all from the same person we may be able to write it off as a crank. However, if the numerous complaints came from numerous people then perhaps they have an issue.

I have read and stood on the sideline but I think I need to comment now. Ending the music at 8pm is nuts I am just finishing my dinner and would like to enjoy the music while I digest.

NJBLUE numerous complaints could come from a single source (maybe you), I bought my house in a retirement community not a old age home. The music was part of the attraction.

NJ BLUE with all due respect you purchased a house near a country club not a cemetery you posts remind me of the person who buys a house near a farm and then complains about the smell and animals.:boxing2::boxing2:

let's all chant in unison "KEEP THE MUSIC ALIVE"

[Talk Host]

Those numbers give us some help. The ordinance standard that was quoted last night was:

" . . if it generates decibel levels greater than sixty (60) decibels in any residential or multifamily residential neighborhood at a point located one thousand (1,000) feet from the location generating the noise . . . "

If music on a bandstand, which I presume means a full band, which I believe would be louder than the typical music that is playing at the CC's or restaurants here, dissipates from 120-150 decibels to becoming only 90 decibels at 500', then at another 500' distance (referring to the 1000' distance used in the ordinance) one would think that that sound level would dissipate to less than 60 decibels (the standard).

Assuming that is true, the lesser level of sound from the typical music being played outside here in TV, which is probably much less than that of a full band playing outdoors, would probably have to be less than 60 decibels at 1000 feet away.

(1000 feet is nearly 3 football fields! The next question is . . . are there homes within 1000 feet of the CC's/ restaurants?)

I don't know how the meters work, but it would seem to me you would have to measure the 1000 feet distance from the source, and take a reading at that distance (which would seem to be the most accurate); unless the meters are able to project for distance reading.

(Maybe a decibel meter will become a standard accessory for going out for the evening in TV?)


Let's not forget too, that residents are "indoors" which further mutes the decibel level at 1000'. The ordinance stand if the reading is taken 1000' "unobstructed." Put some walls in the way, and it drops to a mere din I think.

JLK

[JUREK]

I have read and stood on the sideline but I think I need to comment now. Ending the music at 8pm is nuts I am just finishing my dinner and would like to enjoy the music while I digest.

NJBLUE numerous complaints could come from a single source (maybe you), I bought my house in a retirement community not a old age home. The music was part of the attraction.

NJ BLUE with all due respect you purchased a house near a country club not a cemetery you posts remind me of the person who buys a house near a farm and then complains about the smell and animals.:boxing2::boxing2:

let's all chant in unison "KEEP THE MUSIC ALIVE"

Must agree with most of you guys.
When I bought my house about 150 feet from the Ashland pool I thought it out. I like the proximity that I could throw on some trunks and walk there in less than a minute. Now should I complain because the pool area becomes a bit load at times ? I don't think so. I say music until 10PM . I wouldn't care if the pool was open until that time also.
:agree::agree:

[Freeda]

If you are reading this thread, it would be helpful if you would express your opinion this issue, the implications of which have significant relevance to lifestyle issues here, both now and in the future and, therefore potentially, even home values here. As was suggested in earlier posts, will others want to move here if it is buttoned up after 8 PM?

This forum is a good check of the pulse of TV, even though informal, and could be a factor in how some issues get resolved.

[Whalen]

I agree with this analysis. Note that the original post in this epic talked about "numerous" complaints. If these were all from the same person we may be able to write it off as a crank. However, if the numerous complaints came from numerous people then perhaps they have an issue.


Just to set the record straight, I started this epic and never mentioned
'numerous" complaints.
I did however wonder who the cranky old Bas--rds were who did complain.

[NJblue]

I have read and stood on the sideline but I think I need to comment now. Ending the music at 8pm is nuts I am just finishing my dinner and would like to enjoy the music while I digest.

NJBLUE numerous complaints could come from a single source (maybe you), I bought my house in a retirement community not a old age home. The music was part of the attraction.

NJ BLUE with all due respect you purchased a house near a country club not a cemetery you posts remind me of the person who buys a house near a farm and then complains about the smell and animals.:boxing2::boxing2:

let's all chant in unison "KEEP THE MUSIC ALIVE"

Mel, you may claim to have read these posts, but I suggest you go back and read them again because you clearly have not comprehended them. I do not live near any country club. I also said that 8 PM is too early to stop the music. I also acknowledged (in the actual post that you quoted!!!) that if the numerous complaints were from one person it may be written off as a crank.

[NJblue]

Whalen, with all due respect, you DID say that there were numerous complaints:



Just wondering...

How many posters are happy with the 8 PM curfew now in effect for entertainment at local Country Clubs?

Was at Havana CC this evening while the Sheriff was shutting down the entainment at about 7:45 due to numerous complaints!

Had I known I was expected to be in bed by 8PM I might have moved elsewhere.

All kidding aside, I live very close to Havana CC, do not mind the music, in fact I enjoy it, and just want to know why the big fuss about about music at the CC?

Oh, and who the hell are the cranky old Bast--ds who complained?

[quill]

Years ago when we bought property in California we had to sign a letter from the county that stated we understood there were going to be strange smells and sounds when living in the country. Remember this was California. Guess there were too many people complaining about country living after buying country land for country living. This also reminds me of a guy that buys land under the flight path of an airport because it is inexpensive and then complains about the noise and wants the airport closed. It is called due diligence for a reason.

[chelsea24]

OK, let's not start nitpicking each other and parsing words! The point is does ANYONE have a plan of action??? What do we do next??? I'm on board.

Anyone??? Anyone??? :shocked:

[KathieI]

OK, let's not start knit-picking each other and parsing words! The point is does ANYONE have a plan of action??? What do we do next??? I'm on board.

Anyone??? Anyone??? :shocked:

Definitely, there will be a plan, we can't let this go too easily.

Shall we do post to vote different options?? I'm off to the gym but will try to do one later.

[chuckster]

:beer3:[QUOTE=Whalen;233793]Just wondering...


Was at Havana CC this evening while the Sheriff was shutting down the entainment at about 7:45 due to numerous complaints!

..Believe I'm reading "numerous complaints" in your original statement...........

Having visited all the country clubs over 6 years have found the following; Lopez music in bar; Glenview music (on rare ocassions) in the bar; Palmer in the breeseway (summers); Mallory in the breeseway; Tiera del Sol inside; Hacienda inside and on ocassion at the Tiki bar; Havana in the breesway.
9 - 10pm seems a reasonable time to end the evening at the clubs. Later hours could be confined to the squares.

In my other life my country clubs emphasized golf, bar and food with an ocassional reception for extra revenue. No nightly entertainment......

Music groups fine but tone deaf karaoke artists should confine themselves to their showers with fan on HIGH. Although after 11pm, drunk and hearing impaired improves the music. :beer3:

[Donna]

I think if people are willing to compromise, this problem could have a happy ending for all.....There are some people that will never be happy, no matter what the end result is!!

I think 10:00 is a fair time to stop the music...If some peeps are looking to roll the streets in at 8, maybe TV is NOT the place for them...

[MelZ]

Mel, you may claim to have read these posts, but I suggest you go back and read them again because you clearly have not comprehended them. I do not live near any country club. I also said that 8 PM is too early to stop the music. I also acknowledged (in the actual post that you quoted!!!) that if the numerous complaints were from one person it may be written off as a crank.

NJ Blue thanks for agreeing with us who want the music to continue. We need an old fashioned demonstration for the sheriff, Morse Family and County Commissioners to show our displeasure with the "Curfew". I hope we can count on you to carry a sign.

:thumbup::thumbup:

[NJblue]

I hope we can count on you to carry a sign.

Sorry Mel, but you're more likely to see me on the other side of the street with the counter-protestors. I will send a beer over your way though.

[Freeda]

OK, let's not start nitpicking each other and parsing words! The point is does ANYONE have a plan of action??? What do we do next??? I'm on board.

Anyone??? Anyone??? :shocked:

Perhaps a few interested people should form a pro hac 'committee' to check into this. Kathie, you are I think one of the logical choices to head this up - any other takers?

I would help if needed. We are not out late at nights more than a couple of times a week, but believe in the right of myself, and others, to have this option.

I think that one of the first things would be to collect the objective facts, by asking the business owners exactly what they have been told, when, and by whom; in regards to the complaints. And then, talk to those people; ie, those responding to the 'complaints' and find out the facts of what the complaints actually amount to, what they are basing their actions on, who they report to, etc.

And also, find out from each business owner what their interest is in staying open - ie, how late would they like to have outdoor/ indoor music, and on what nights, even if they could?

Then, with this information, and plus hopefully a consensus of many opinions from TOTV - including people who don't live here yet but who are considering moving to TV - as added data, talk to the authorities and see if a resolution can be reached; and if not, find out the appropriate governing bodies and show up at their public meetings to present the information gathered and to offer solutions. The meeting next week mentioned last night, unfortunately will find many of us out of town for T/G with family.

It's either this, or accept the status quo.

.... and, anyone own a decibel meter and measuring tape, who could be 'on call' for emergencies?

[Whalen]

Whalen, with all due respect, you DID say that there were numerous complaints:

Sorry, I stand corrected.
I'm not sleeping well due to all the noise coming from Havana.
Just kidding.:duck:

[sschuler1]

Freeda, it's great to have a level headed lawyer step up and help us like you are willing to do. Kath, you seem the logical choice to head up the committee, but you can count me in for back up help. With my business background I'm good at making presentations and can wow them with my prowess at graphs and pie charts!

[skip0358]

I hope anyone who has read these posts and hasn't bought uses extra caution when buying. I also up that in the future Country Clubs are built in more remote areas, so as not to bother anyone with their noise. I agree people are retireing earlier and moving here at a younger age. I for one am not OLD, I enjoy going to Dueling Pianos at MR, I enjoy Kareoke at Gators, I enjoy the 2AM at Gators Dockside, The music in the Square. I don't sleep late in the AM either. I as many otherrs bought here for what TV had to offer. As just posted now the sherriff was shutting down at 7:45 next will be 5PM. Yes frequent the town squares that's fine but after 9PM some like to go out elsewhere.Whatever needs to be done I will support it.Does anyone have the email for Mr Morse??

[Bob S]

Hey, we are only moving to TV in January! Please don't stop the party before we get there. I agree that 10:00 PM on weekdays and 12:00 PM on Friday and Saturday would be a much more logical time to end outdoor music at the CC.

Freeda, your posts on this subject seem to be the most well thought out and kept reasonable and objective. Please accept my vote to lead the effort on a response.

[Kelsie52]

---We will be coming down for a second visit the day after Thanksgiving --hoping to find the perfect spot---
Looks like I might get a great buy near a Country Club ---:beer3::pepper2:

[carm310]

I will do what I can from afar! We will be down next week - 21st through the 28th, if you have something to sign we will sign it. We loved going to Havana in the evening this past summer for the music. In fact we enjoyed it more than the town squares. The talent around TV is amazing. Just say the word and we will do what we can. : )

[Spectreron]

I'm looking for a home in TV. I'll take one of those "noisy" near CC homes off your hands, at a big discount, of course...You know, because of all that noise at 9:00 pm. I just don't want one near NJBlue.

[NJblue]

I agree that 10:00 PM on weekdays and 12:00 PM on Friday and Saturday would be a much more logical time to end outdoor music at the CC.

I wonder how you would feel about it if you had bought property close ( a few hundred feet) to a CC knowing that none of the CCs have ever played outdoor music that late at night and now they suddenly start. My guess is that if the shoe were on the other foot you would have a different perspective.

This repeated notion of "this is like buying in the country and then complaining about the smell" is not the case here. A more apt analogy is that this is like buying in the country with a diner a few hundred feet down the road. The diner has always closed up at 8:30 or 9:00 and was not known to play outdoor music. Then a new owner comes in and wants to expand his business by staying open later and offering live, outdoor music.

[NJblue]

I'm looking for a home in TV. I'll take one of those "noisy" near CC homes off your hands, at a big discount, of course...You know, because of all that noise at 9:00 pm. I just don't want one near NJBlue.

Ouch, another personal attack. I guess there will be no beer for you, Specteron.

[Hawkwind]

I have already acknowledged that 9 PM may be a reasonable limit. The reason that the restaurants are empty at 9 isn't because they are closing. They are closing because they are empty. I'm sure if a lot of patrons wanted to dine past 9:00 any smart restaurant owner would comply.

There is a difference in dining and entertainment. I for one dines in the 4:00 pm to the 6:00 pm hours and then enjoy entertainment after that. If there is no entertainment at 9:00 pm at a restaurant why would I even go there in the first place.

During the summer months, June, July and August I for one would like to see the entertainment on the squares go from 6:00 pm to 10:00 pm as things start to cool down for the day.

[BogeyBoy]

When I lived in Virginia Trace I often heard the music from LSL, some nights it sounded like they were right next door, other nights I could hardly hear them. The music never bothered me, just a reminder of how lucky we are to live in a place with live entertainment every night. Never thought about music from LSL when looking for a lot.

Now I live near enough to Havana to occasionally hear the music. I was/am glad to hear it and know Havana is attracting customers and more likely to be around for a while. (Have any of the country club restaurants ever shut down?)

It seems the outdoor entertainment has become quite popular recently at various locations. I hope that somewhere out there someone will come up with a solution that will work for all.

Let's see what I can come up with -

Issue noise reducing headsets to all households within 1000'.

Place a sound barrier around Havana.

Issue headsets to all customers at Havana, the band plays inside but the customers listen with headsets outside.

Have a parade/Christmas tree lighting/craft show/car show, etc. every night until 10:00 at LSL. No one will be home to be annoyed because they will attend those events. (Except the ones that want to enjoy the entertainment at Havana.)

[t fields]

i find this amusing to the point of " when you visited here for the first time did you not go to mallory, glenview, hacienda, cane garden or any of the other country clubs that have music at night???", or did you miss that part of the preview? i haven't heard anyone from mallory complain.

[Taltarzac]

...and see on which ordinances they are actually enforcing this 8 p.m. "curfew".

It seems to me that the ordinance given in this thread must have been amended to allow for such a curfew as it hardly sounds like a "reasonable" limitation on noise to me.

The reasonable person standard pops up all the time in Tort law (negligence suits and the like) but does not show up that much in Criminal Law nor in strict liability cases of negligence. It is in criminal cases of negligence though like leaving a pet in a parked car. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

It is also a shield and a sword for the most persuasive lawyers in most actual cases with respect to getting the jury and/or judge on your side.

I did a little research on Florida noise law and found this site which should be of interest-- http://articles.directorym.com/Noise_Law_FAQ_Florida-r935210-Florida.html

[NJblue]

i find this amusing to the point of " when you visited here for the first time did you not go to mallory, glenview, hacienda, cane garden or any of the other country clubs that have music at night???", or did you miss that part of the preview? i haven't heard anyone from mallory complain.

What is kind of interesting is the liberty that some feel to take personal attacks or make snide comments just because someone has a different opinion than they. Must a difference of opinion always lead to personal attacks? The sad thing is when these opinions are backed up on a basis other than facts but rather just personal preferences. I called Cane and Glenview - they do not offer entertainment and close at either 8 or 9 at night. I also called Mallory. They have entertainment, however, it ends at 7 PM on most nights and 8 PM on one night. So, if no one is complaining about the music at Mallory, that may have a lot to do with it.

So, if someone were doing due diligence before buying a home near a golf course, it is not surprising that one could conclude that in all liklihood there won't be music, but, if there is it will be over by 7 or 8 PM.

For those fearful that the "party" may be over before you get here, the facts speak to the opposite notion. There is no regressing on this issue - at least with respect to CC music. Rather, Havana is trying to break new ground with outdoor entertainment that goes beyond the 8 o'clock hour. Based on what appears to be a majority (at least here on TOTV), this new venture is to be applauded. However, I'm a bit sorry for those who bought a home there assuming that they would have reasonably tranquil nights. For wanting the status quo (as defined by the norm in other TV country clubs) to be maintained they get to be labeled old fogeys, whiney and any number of other insults that have been hurled their way.

[swrinfla]

I really can't believe that this thread is still making my computer smoke. It is almost as contentious as the political forum was (and probably still is).

I still say, "Cool it!" chilout

See most of you Friday?

SWR
:beer3:

[BobKat1]

What is kind of interesting is the liberty that some feel to take personal attacks or make snide comments just because someone has a different opinion than they. Must a difference of opinion always lead to personal attacks? The sad thing is when these opinions are backed up on a basis other than facts but rather just personal preferences. I called Cane and Glenview - they do not offer entertainment and close at either 8 or 9 at night. I also called Mallory. They have entertainment, however, it ends at 7 PM on most nights and 8 PM on one night. So, if no one is complaining about the music at Mallory, that may have a lot to do with it.
So, if someone were doing due diligence before buying a home near a golf course, it is not surprising that one could conclude that in all liklihood there won't be music, but, if there is it will be over by 7 or 8 PM.

For those fearful that the "party" may be over before you get here, the facts speak to the opposite notion. There is no regressing on this issue - at least with respect to CC music. Rather, Havana is trying to break new ground with outdoor entertainment that goes beyond the 8 o'clock hour. Based on what appears to be a majority (at least here on CC), this new venture is to be applauded. However, I'm a bit sorry for those who bought a home there assuming that they would have reasonably tranquil nights. For wanting the status quo (as defined by the norm in other TV country clubs) to be maintained they get to be labeled old fogeys, whiney and any number of other insults that have been hurled their way.

Hey! Don't let facts get in the way of this debate! Just kidding. I understand the points you are making in this discussion.

[hfivo]

ARTICLE VI. NOISE CONTROL

Sec. 16-101. Title.
This article shall be known and may be cited as the Sumter County Noise Control Ordinance.
(Ord. No. 2001-6, § 1, 4-10-01)

Sec. 16-102. Findings of fact.
The foregoing findings [found in the preamble of Ord. No. 2001-06] are incorporated herein by reference.
(Ord. No. 2001-6, § 2, 4-10-01)

Sec. 16-103. Authority.
This article is enacted pursuant to Article II, Section 7, of the Florida Constitution, which provides that adequate provision shall be made by law for the abatement of excessive and unnecessary noise, and under the Home Rule Power of Sumter County, specifically, Section 125.01(1), F.S.
(Ord. No. 2001-6, § 3, 4-10-01)

Sec. 16-104. Scope.
This article shall be effective throughout the unincorporated areas of the county.
(Ord. No. 2001-6, § 4, 4-10-01)

Sec. 16-105. Definition of noise disturbance.
As used in this article, a "noise disturbance" is any sound which is either:
(1) Excessive in amount or of such duration, wave frequency or intensity as may be or is injurious to human or animal life or property;
(2) Excessive or unnecessary in amount, level or duration as to unreasonably interfere with the comfortable enjoyment of life, property or the conduct of business; or
(3) Of such character and in such quantity or level as to be detectable by a considerable number of persons or the public, so as to interfere with such persons or the public health, repose or safety, or to cause severe annoyance or discomfort, or which interferes with normal conduct of business, or is otherwise detrimental or harmful to the health, comfort, living conditions, welfare and safety of the inhabitants of the county.
(4) In determining whether a noise is unreasonably loud and disturbing, the following factors incident to such noise can be considered, in addition to such others as the enforcing authority deems relevant:
a. Time of day.
b. Proximity to residential structures.
c. Whether the noise is recurrent, intermittent, or constant.
d. The volume and intensity of the noise.
e. Whether the noise has been enhanced in volume or range by any type of electronic or mechanical means.
(5) Specifically, a noise source shall be considered a prohibited "noise disturbance" under the provisions of this chapter if it generates decibel levels greater than sixty (60) decibels in any residential or multifamily residential neighborhood at a point located one thousand (1,000) feet from the location generating the noise, or decibel levels greater than seventy-five (75) decibels at a point located one thousand (1,000) feet from the location generating the noise, regardless of the surrounding land use. Decibel levels shall be measured by an officer of the Sumter County Sheriff's Department, using equipment specifically designed for decibel measurement.
(Ord. No. 2001-6, § 5, 4-10-01; Ord. No. 2008-09, § 2, 3-11-08; Ord. No. 2009-16, § 2, 8-11-09)

Sec. 16-106. Prohibition of noise disturbance.
Any person or legal entity through its officers, agents or employees who makes, maintains, or causes to be made or maintain a noise disturbance as defined in this article may be penalized in accordance with section 16-114. When the sheriff's office investigates an alleged noise disturbance, the sheriff's office shall issue a verbal notice to the owner, or any person, or legal entity which is legally responsible for such property where a noise disturbance exists. The sheriff's office shall document the issuance of a verbal notice in an offense report. If the noise disturbance continues after the owner, person, or legal entity who received the verbal notice has been given a reasonable time to cease such noise disturbance, then that party who received the verbal notice may be penalized in accordance with the provisions of this article.
If the same party previously penalized is found by an officer of the sheriff's department to generate a noise disturbance, as defined and described herein, within one hundred twenty (120) days of the issuance of a documented verbal notice or penalty, that party shall not receive an additional verbal notice but will instead immediately receive a penalty in accordance with the provisions of this article.
(Ord. No. 2001-6, § 6, 4-10-01; Ord. No. 2008-09, § 3, 3-11-08; Ord. No. 2009-16, § 3, 8-11-09)

Sec. 16-107. Specific prohibitions.
The following specified acts and circumstances are hereby declared to constitute prohibited noise disturbances in violation of this article; provided however, such enumeration is not and shall not be deemed to be exclusive; provided further that all other acts and circumstances meeting the definition of noise disturbance are likewise declared to be in violation of this article.
(1) Radios, televisions, musical instruments and similar devices, and amplified human voice. Playing or permitting the playing of any radio, television, musical instrument or similar device, whether amplified or not amplified, or amplifying the human voice in such a manner or with such volume as to annoy or disturb the quiet, comfort and repose of a reasonable person in any type of residence or place of business; provided, however, this prohibition shall not apply to regularly scheduled outdoor entertainment activities in the downtown or urban areas within developments of regional impact, so long as such events terminate not later than 10:00 p.m.
(2) Neighborhood parties and disturbances. Sounds originating from a residence or residential common area as a result of a party or other activities which may otherwise not be considered a noise disturbance under section 16-105 but arises to a noise disturbance due to the time of day or evening.
(3) Barking dogs. Allowing a dog to bark, howl, or whine continuously between the hours of 9:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. until such noise arises to the level of a noise disturbance under section 16-105. Any person or entity cited for a violation under this specific subsection shall not be subject to the penalties in this article. Instead, any person or entity cited for a violation under this specific subsection shall be subject to the penalties set forth in Chapter 4 of the Sumter County Code.
The sheriff's deputy may defer enforcement against the owner of the animal to animal control in accordance with Chapter 4 of the Sumter County Code if the deputy is unable to personally observe the barking, howling, or whining to determine whether such noise arises to the level of a noise disturbance as defined under section 16-105.
(Ord. No. 2001-6, § 7, 4-10-01; Ord. No. 2004-19, § 1, 7-15-04)

[Katgirl]

We just purchased in TV and will not be there full-time for 18 months. I was a little concerned about things quieting down at 9:30...but 8 pm is ludicrous! I certainly hope we can do something about this. I may be retiring, but I'm not dead....geeze....if a petition is started, please let me know so I can sign it.

[Talk Host]

We just purchased in TV and will not be there full-time for 18 months. I was a little concerned about things quieting down at 9:30...but 8 pm is ludicrous! I certainly hope we can do something about this. I may be retiring, but I'm not dead....geeze....if a petition is started, please let me know so I can sign it.

Please, don't waste your time on a petition. Petitions don't work. Lawmaking bodies do not respond to petitions.

[Taj44]

I'm looking for a home in TV. I'll take one of those "noisy" near CC homes off your hands, at a big discount, of course...You know, because of all that noise at 9:00 pm. I just don't want one near NJBlue.

I'm sick and tired of reading all the nasty comments about NJBlue, simply because he or she has an opinion different than your. What is the matter with you people? And what about the Administrators - why are you allowing this?

[MelZ]

Sorry Mel, but you're more likely to see me on the other side of the street with the counter-protestors. I will send a beer over your way though.

Please make it a cold one:beer3:

[srateach]

So- we are not yet full-timers. Never heard about a curfew. It's sometimes not even dark yet at 8PM. Doesn't sound very "friendly." What are they thinking? Has anyone looked at contacting state senators, etc? Even a mail campaign to create awareness about the curfew would be better than doing nothing. Where can one go to find the facts about this imposed curfew?

[BETHPAGE BLACK]

I'm back in NY reading all this curfew nonsense..If I had wanted to move to FREEDOM POINT I would have done so..why dont you just put us all in a nursing home and throw away the key..
Those people who are complaining about noise at 8 or even 9 oclock,, need to get out of the PJ's and learn to live a little..they need a life..dont give up yet..we all have some years to go and have some fun..Ba Humbug!
Also..I beleive this will be very detrimental to the sale of homes in the Villages as the reason people move there is to have FUN...Hear that...I say FUN!..If sales go out the window (and they will) your house value goes down down down..So be careful what you wish for..Maybe these old foggies need to take out their hearing aides for awhile and everyone will be happy..
Kathiei, Dicky Skip..if you need signatures..Im there (need a stamp)..
This is so upsetting ...:swear::swear::swear::swear:

[GatorFan]

The Sheriff has to inforce the laws. Do not blame him for doing his job. I personally would be upset if he did not inforce the laws. I agree the 8:00 curfew is crazy, but get the law changed. Talk to your County Commissioners.

[bluedog103]

How about finding out who the complainers are and pay them a visit. Perhaps there are reasons for their behavior. Probably not, other than just being miserable people, but there is a possibility. The visit might provide information about the volume level of the music in question and perhaps provide a remedy. In any case, the anonymity of these complaints would be a thing of the past. If you know who is making your life miserable, perhaps you can convince them to do otherwise. Use your imagination.

[Talk Host]

I'm sick and tired of reading all the nasty comments about NJBlue, simply because he or she has an opinion different than your. What is the matter with you people? And what about the Administrators - why are you allowing this?


I think that was done "tongue in cheek." I think NJBlue took it that way. I may be wrong.

[graciegirl]

Correct me if I am wrong. A curfew means to me that youngsters have to go home, get off the streets, not appear in public. That isn't what this means does it? ONLY music that is stopped is at Havana Country Club? You can still dance at the squares and listen to the music there until nine....right?...and even after the music is over you can still stay and walk around and have a drink if you wish.

[NJblue]

So- we are not yet full-timers. Never heard about a curfew. It's sometimes not even dark yet at 8PM. Doesn't sound very "friendly." What are they thinking? Has anyone looked at contacting state senators, etc? Even a mail campaign to create awareness about the curfew would be better than doing nothing. Where can one go to find the facts about this imposed curfew?

This is part of the problem with this whole thread. It is full of misinformation. Here are the facts:

1) There is no curfew!!! People are allowed to be on the street and go to any venue that is open - just as they always have. While the OP certainly brought a lot of attention to this and created a lot of angst with this inflamatory choice of words, they are completely untrue.

2) There are no fewer entertainment options than there ever have been. The country clubs have traditionally closed early and only a handful ever offered live entertainment which is typically turned off at 7 PM. No one is changing that. One CC (Havana) recently started to have later hours with a live band outside. This is the point of contention since there are people who live quite close to this.

3) The town centers continue to offer live outdoor entertainment in the squares until 9 PM - just as they always have.

4) The restaurants in the squares and elsewhere that choose to continue to offer late night entertainment options just as they always have. There has been one allegation of harassment of these venues. From my way of thinking, if this allegation is true, the focus of this thread should be on this - not Havana where there are some real issues of infringing on people's rights to tranquility.

[NJblue]

I'm sick and tired of reading all the nasty comments about NJBlue, simply because he or she has an opinion different than your. What is the matter with you people? And what about the Administrators - why are you allowing this?

Thanks Taj44, there are a few people who understand the issues involved. I suspect that there would be many others if they looked beyond their own self-interest (which is a natural phenomenon). And then there are others (mostly who don't live here yet) who simply don't know the facts and are acting out of emotions.

[dadspet]

If entertainment is forced to stop by 8 that will make THE VILLAGES the equivalent of a very over sized nursing home. I could have bought a room next to my 94 yr old mother in law and saved a lot of money. I don't think she even goes to bed by 8! Is someone nuts!! Does anyone realize what will happen to people who used to come to the villages for the active LIFE STYLE!

I can see the new CD The Villages will put out!

Enjoy yourself, sidewalks now rolled up at 8PM to conform with other non-active retirement communities! :yuck:

There needs to be a very strong verbal and written protest "to someone" if this has any validity.

[NJblue]

dadspet, I suggest you read post 152. The bottom line is that nothing is any different than it was last year or two years ago.

[bluedog103]

This is part of the problem with this whole thread. It is full of misinformation. Here are the facts:

1) There is no curfew!!! People are allowed to be on the street and go to any venue that is open - just as they always have. While the OP certainly brought a lot of attention to this and created a lot of angst with this inflamatory choice of words, they are completely untrue.

2) There are no fewer entertainment options than there ever have been. The country clubs have traditionally closed early and only a handful ever offered live entertainment which is typically turned off at 7 PM. No one is changing that. One CC (Havana) recently started to have later hours with a live band outside. This is the point of contention since there are people who live quite close to this.

3) The town centers continue to offer live outdoor entertainment in the squares until 9 PM - just as they always have.

4) The restaurants in the squares and elsewhere that choose to continue to offer late night entertainment options just as they always have. There has been one allegation of harassment of these venues. From my way of thinking, if this allegation is true, the focus of this thread should be on this - not Havana where there are some real issues of infringing on people's rights to tranquility.

This thread was originally entitled "8 PM Curfew". Is it indeed a curfew? No, but that doesn't change the fact that people have very strong feelings about perceived restrictions on their lifestyle. I've never seen such strong emotions about any subject on this forum. Sometimes being united in a cause is a good thing. Fighting for something you believe in brings people closer together.

[NJblue]

This thread was originally entitled "8 PM Curfew". Is it indeed a curfew? No, but that doesn't change the fact that people have very strong feelings about perceived restrictions on their lifestyle. I've never seen such strong emotions about any subject on this forum. Sometimes being united in a cause is a good thing. Fighting for something you believe in brings people closer together.
"Perceived" restrictions are the key words here. Yes emotions are running high but it is regrettable that they are running high under false pretenses - implying that the Villages lifestyle that everyone has thought it to be is about to change. This is false.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

Over 7100 views on this matter in a little over 1 day.
I have to agree with you NJBLUE. :agree:

[beady]

FYI.....The calls to Havana regarding the noise are being made by one....that's right, one person. That info from the manager at Havana.

Amazing what one complaint can stir up......I have a feeling he,she ,whoever, will not win this battle.

[barb1191]

Take the music inside the CC and let the neighbors choose their own music in their own home sans outside interference. How could you not realize the imposition imposed on the nearby residents????

It's like living in an apartment building where the apartment over yours is blaring a stereo and intruding upon your peace and quiet. Cause for complaint, for sure.

I think that one must look at the complete picture to understand the situation; just take the music indoors.

No, I do not reside in that area, merely feeling empathy for those neighbors forced to listen to the noise (and it can be considered "noise" if it's imposing).....b

[Martha Kaye]

How about finding out who the complainers are and pay them a visit. Perhaps there are reasons for their behavior. Probably not, other than just being miserable people, but there is a possibility. The visit might provide information about the volume level of the music in question and perhaps provide a remedy. In any case, the anonymity of these complaints would be a thing of the past. If you know who is making your life miserable, perhaps you can convince them to do otherwise. Use your imagination.

...pay them a visit???

[golf2140]

My suggestion to end all the confusion is to start calling Sumter County Sheriff for the music from Sumter Landing after 8 P. M. Maybe when all is said and done,they will have a policy that fits all. In a earlier post someone mentioned that the music is halted at 7 P.M. at some locations. I have been hear 9 years and you are completely wrong. In the case of Havana, the Country Club was there before homes. We looked at a home there, heard the music and shifted our location to Bonita.

[Freeda]

The issue is not whether or not the desire of Havana (or any other CC or restaurant) to have outdoor music later is a new concept, or different than has been done in the past, or from what other CC's or restaurants are doing now. The issue is whether the noise level is reasonable, ie, complies with the law; and if it does, it doesn't matter that it may be something new that didn't happen in the past.

No one is justified in having an expectation that no 'changes' - often called 'progress', and granted that depends one's sentiments - can take place; that everything must always stay the way it has always been; or the way it was when they moved here.

For example, I personally preferred the color of the flowers at the roundabout we live next to when we moved here as compared with those we have now; but I didn't have any right to expect that that same color of flower would always be there.

It may be true as has been said that other CC's have not stayed open later than 8 PM - I don't know; perhaps they don't have the desire to, perhaps didn't think that they could - maybe they were told they couldn't; who knows? Regardless, that should not control the decision of other CCs or restaurants to have later outdoor music hours, provided that they comply with the legal noise levels.

The baby boomers (which until recently had been the largest in number generation ever born) were born 1946-1964, so they are now ages 45-63, a pretty young group; as well, even the next prior generation, those born before 1946 are as young as only 64 - still a very active group. Thus, there are many retirees, and many more to come.

So, it should not surprise anyone, whether or not it was the case when they bought here, that the inevitable has occurred; that as more people, some portion of whom desire a night life, move here - and this will increase in the future unless they are discouraged from doing so - there will be businesses who want to accommodate them.

Businesses that are not breaking the law should be allowed to do business, even if it is a change or something 'new'. That is what free enterprise is about, and it is what made our country great.

[Bogie Shooter]

Now that most of the arguments pro & con have been aired, it seems the next step would be to attend a county commissoners meeting and voice the concern. Not a cast of 2000 (yet) but as a small delegation to present the concerns. Yelling and screaming as has been done at recent "tea party" meetings will not gain any support from those not directly involved. By attending the meeting the topic will become part of the record and may get the attention of those who do not visit Talk of The Villages.
Just a thought.

[JeanneBeannie]

Well....in my opinion, I moved here to "live my life", not lay down and go to bed at 8 or 9.....been there and done that while working and as all of us have done, worked, raised children, etc. Isnt this is what retirement is all about...to enjoy our lives?
I love watching people enjoy themselves, dancing and singing...means they are happy. Those grumbling and complaining over alittle music in the background perhaps need a quiet place to retire, not an active community like TV.
I truly believe it is "one" person complaining, so for those of us who want to enjoy ourselves, enjoy music, friends, outdoor entertainment and dancing to gather together and speak our views to those who are trying to shut down our entertainment.
I understand there are a few who dislike the music at night, but it is nice music, not rock or rap. In fact last night in Havana we enjoyed beautiful Christmas music. So Mr. Scrooge, go to bed, close your windows, put in ear plus....whatever you need to do so you can rest peacefully at night.
I love the music in the square, but I also love dancing at Havana, Big City Grill etc., and so do many many others. Are we to stop having fun at the prime of our life because of a few unhappy campers? I wont, I will go to meetings or whatever it takes to come to a peaceful resolution...but it aint 8 p.m., 10 p.m. is definitely fair. I didnt move all this way to lay down and die, I could have done that in NY, I have been having the time of my life and hope to continue, so hopefully the powers that be are reading all these posts.

[katezbox]

OK - I have stayed out of this one for awhile, but here goes....

1. We need to remember that Havana CC is a business - it is not one of our neighbors playing music or TV too loud. Presumably they are providing entertainment to attract additional customers and generate additional revenue.

2. I understand where NJBlue is coming from - the country club was there before most of the homes, but not all. One of the best things about this forum is that it allows us to research, research, research. Buying a home near any public facility could always mean an increase in noise, traffic, etc. As Freeda points out, the law doesn't provide for protection against changes that do not not meet our expectations.

3. Whalen, I believe, did not mean a curfew in the literal sense. She meant that the early end of music was in effect a curfew. As more and more boomers move to TV, TV will need to change to meet this shifting demographic. The Morse family has done amazingly well by reading the market clearly - there is no reason to suspect that this will not continue.

4. It seems the real problem here is the lack of understanding about just what the rules are. Why are businesses being restricted from offering musical entertainment in the squares? What are reasonable limits on music at Havana and other country clubs?

Attendance at public hearings seems a good way to start. As a villager who still works, I have less passion about this now than I expect I will once I can retire. This group needs a leader. Sue Schuler offered her presentation skills - who will take her up on this to make something happen?

k

[NJblue]

No one is justified in having an expectation that no 'changes' - often called 'progress', and granted that depends one's sentiments - can take place; that everything must always stay the way it has always been; or the way it was when they moved here.

I wonder how the popular sentiment as expressed here would change if "progress" meant that as more baby boomers move in that the Rec Department decided that for the sake of progress they would allow bop-til-you-drop outdoor parties with live bands at all of the neighborhood pools and rec centers? This is just a logical extension of "progress" as what is being advocated here for the CCs.

Look, TV benefits from being a planned community and for the most part it is very well planned. Central to this plan was the concept of town squares where people could shop, dine and find plenty of entertainment - both indoors and out. Also part of this plan was a series of distributed country clubs primarily for golf but also dining and light entertainment. However, unlike most country clubs around the country, these were placed in very close proximity to residential neighborhoods. Because of this, late night entertainment in CCs is not part of the plan - this is relegated to the town squares.

Now, in the guise of "progress" it seems that people are too lazy to want to take a 5 or 10-minute drive to a town square for their entertainment and instead want to change the plan - even if it trespasses on the rights of homeowners who bought based on a plan being carried out and enforced. What is troublesome is that to carry this out they stir up sentiments with false allegations of "curfew" and allegations that the TV lifestyle is being curtailed - when this is patently false.

[BobKat1]

My guess is that after all is said and done, no changes in the near future.

A tempest in a teapot kind of thing....

[NJblue]

How sound carries is somewhat complex based on a lot of issues - direction that speakers are oriented, acoustic barriers that exist between the source and the receiver, wind, and distance to name a few. One of the acoustic engineers where I used to work said that distance was a significant factor in perceived loudness. Hence in an unobstructed environment a house that is 300 feet from a sound will have dramatically different perception of loudness than one which is 500 feet away. Throw in all of the other variables and it becomes impossible to determine how loud it is at one location by asking a person who is at another vantage point.

That being said, perhaps it may be useful for Havana to bring in an acoustic engineer. Perhaps things can be done in terms of speaker orientation and acoustic absorption material to mitigate the problem.

[hedoman]

We were down in October for the Italian Festival and the music and fun lasted past 9 . We were strolling along the LS walk and could hear music from a number of places on the water. Is this a new ordinance?

All I can say is IT'S TIME FOR TOOOOGA! TOGA TOGA TOGA

[elevatorman]

Go to this site and use the search word "noise". The law is very subjective and ambiguous.

http://library8.municode.com/default-test/home.htm?infobase=12044&doc_action=whatsnew

[l2ridehd]

Part of the problem is what is the definition of "late" and "loud"? Someone in their infinite wisdom decided that 9:00 PM was time to shut down the town squares. Is that right? Maybe 11:00 PM would be better. Or maybe 9:00 weekdays and midnight weekends? Oops, that is for working neighborhoods. Or maybe some of us still work.h What about New Years eve? Is later OK then? What noise level and how far away can you hear it?

Maybe a good compromise would be that 9:00 PM in the town squares and 10:00 PM at the CC's as long as the noise level was no more then XX dbs at a distance of 300 feet away. And the same noise guide but 11:00 PM at both places on Friday and Saturday. Exceptions for Holidays like New Years eve and maybe a couple others.

Never will all the rules and guidelines please everyone. But we all have to live in the same "BIG Village" so lets try to figure out a solution that works for everyone.

[tkret]

I wonder how the popular sentiment as expressed here would change if "progress" meant that as more baby boomers move in that the Rec Department decided that for the sake of progress they would allow bop-til-you-drop outdoor parties with live bands at all of the neighborhood pools and rec centers? .

bop-til-you-drop parties? Where do I sign up???:mornincoffee:

[NJblue]

Maybe a good compromise would be that 9:00 PM in the town squares and 10:00 PM at the CC's as long as the noise level was no more then XX dbs at a distance of 300 feet away. And the same noise guide but 11:00 PM at both places on Friday and Saturday.
I would be interested in finding out your logic of allowing an establishment built in a residential neighborhood more leeway than one in a town square that was planned and designed for entertainment.

[SUNNYMARYANN]

OK HERE IS THE STRAIGHT POOP! I had a phone call from Linda (Binder?) at The Villages about my complaint re the curfew and she said they know nothing at all about it and they have never heard of the sheriffs deputies actually shutting down the music, ever! There is no 8PM curfew and management has no access to this website so she is not able to read the forum. She also said it isnt in the paper yet so it probably is just a rumor. So where did this story originate and are there actually live witnesses to the deputies arrival and shutting down of the music. Time to get to the source and find out what its all about. It could affect future sales.

[CJ]

I was just at Havana for lunch and they told me that shut down was 8pm and that ALL country clugs are to adhere to this. Staff was unhappy about closing up at 8. Who to believe?

[golf2140]

OK HERE IS THE STRAIGHT POOP! I had a phone call from Linda (Binder?) at The Villages about my complaint re the curfew and she said they know nothing at all about it and they have never heard of the sheriffs deputies actually shutting down the music, ever! There is no 8PM curfew and management has no access to this website so she is not able to read the forum. She also said it isnt in the paper yet so it probably is just a rumor. So where did this story originate and are there actually live witnesses to the deputies arrival and shutting down of the music. Time to get to the source and find out what its all about. It could affect future sales.

I spoke directly with the folks at Havana, they were shut down by a Deputy Sheriff becasue he said the music was to loud !!!!!

[l2ridehd]

Sure NJBlue. The town squares have many surrounding business that can draw a diverse crowd and benefit from the live music and corner bars. The country clubs are a stand alone beacon that will only be able to serve good food at a reasonable price if they are allowed to draw revenue from multiple sources. I for one want the country club restaurants to be successful, serve great food at competitive prices. The only way they can do this is to develop a draw to bring in people. They don't have the town squares to accomplish that for them. I am sure those that live close to any country club go there often. I know I frequent the one near me. I want them to succeed. Music is one way to do that. I am sure there are others as well, but music brings crowds, people spend money, profits improve, and almost always the quality and price of their food. I would not want Havana to become like HH for food. If music until 10:00 PM will help accomplish that, then I support it.

[BETHPAGE BLACK]

:agree:Sure NJBlue. The town squares have many surrounding business that can draw a diverse crowd and benefit from the live music and corner bars. The country clubs are a stand alone beacon that will only be able to serve good food at a reasonable price if they are allowed to draw revenue from multiple sources. I for one want the country club restaurants to be successful, serve great food at competitive prices. The only way they can do this is to develop a draw to bring in people. They don't have the town squares to accomplish that for them. I am sure those that live close to any country club go there often. I know I frequent the one near me. I want them to succeed. Music is one way to do that. I am sure there are others as well, but music brings crowds, people spend money, profits improve, and almost always the quality and price of their food. I would not want Havana to become like HH for food. If music until 10:00 PM will help accomplish that, then I support it.

DITTO...DITTO/// YOU ARE RIGHT ON.....
What will happen is these CC will wind up closing down because they cant compete and then all those who live on a "Championship Golf Course" can attempt to explain to all their visitors that "oh by the way..we are waiting for the CC to open up..with nw owners"...not very impressive is it???

[NJblue]

Interesting rationale. However, this doesn't address the issue that none of the other CCs see the need to play late night entertainment and in fact many have no entertainment at all and they seem to do OK. If they would concentrate on quality food and good service they would do fine. Havana should take a lesson from them on this score. It is the closest to our neighborhood but no one wants to go there because of their poor service and mediocre food.

If they want to try some new concepts to bring people in, why not try indoor music - that's what a very popular restaurant where we used to live did. They had music that started around 8:30 or 9 as the dining wound down. That way people could eat and then stay in their seats to enjoy the music. The obvious benefit of this is that it is not dependant on the weather - too hot? too cold? too rainy? doesn't matter. The other benefit is that it doesn't annoy the neighbors.

[BETHPAGE BLACK]

Jeannie beanie...you are so right..we wait to retire to "live our life" not go to bed at 8pm...We finally get to retire we want to be HAPPY..and people who are active and social are Happy people...Not a bunch of old scrooge geezers out to make everyones life as miserable as theirs...
I am still working and my home down there is waiting and calling for me..KathieI and all you guys are always there for everyone. I want to join you guys and gals and have fun with you but it sure doesnt look like we are going to be allowed to do this..I may as well stay in NY and work go to bed early,,get up go to work and do it over and over..no fun..
This is absurd and I wish I were there with you to get to that meeting...Come on gang...we need to be heard.
If I were there, I would round up a few of us and pickett the Sales Center and tell prospective buyers what may lie ahead for them..Sure they will show them the SQUARE..but wont tell them about the Curfew>>>> Dont think the Sales Office would be appreciative of a bunch of picketts....

[NJblue]

My guess is that if you demonstrated in front of the sales office and told prospective buyers that there was a curfew that you would be sued for spreading false and derogatory information. (I don't believe that the right to free speech covers that.) There is no curfew! The entertainment options are the same as they were whenever you decided to move to TV. You need to stop believing and spreading this false hysteria.

In fact, since this false notion of a curfew seems to live on in this thread, I wonder if the admins of TOTV need to be concerned about legal action from TV for allowing it to continue.

[Martha Kaye]

My guess is that if you demonstrated in front of the sales office and told prospective buyers that there was a curfew that you would be sued for spreading false and derogatory information. (I don't believe that the right to free speech covers that.) There is no curfew! The entertainment options are the same as they were whenever you decided to move to TV. You need to stop believing and spreading this false hysteria.

True....been here a long time and there is no curfew. Hang out at different places and go to bed at midnight.

[Talk Host]

How about finding out who the complainers are and pay them a visit.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o69/talkofthevillages/3075104-Mob-of-Torch-bearing-People.jpg

[Bogie Shooter]

the 100+ postings accomplished???

[BobKat1]

Does anyone know if this is a big issue throughout TV in general or mainly in the TOTV community?

[SUNNYMARYANN]

what surprises me is that Linda said the Villages offices computers cannot access this forum and she has no computer at home. Also stated that nobody has called or come in with any questions or complaints about the 'curfew' and if someone imposes a curfew of 8PM there will be a riot! Her words, not mine. How can an organization not take care to be aware of what is happening within their organization? Seems to me that monitoring the forums would give them a lot of information that could be to their benefit. Do I really want to deal with such "duhhhhhs"?

[SUNNYMARYANN]

Actually I was told that the powers that be prefer to ignore rumors and just let them die on the vine.

[BETHPAGE BLACK]

My guess is that if you demonstrated in front of the sales office and told prospective buyers that there was a curfew that you would be sued for spreading false and derogatory information. (I don't believe that the right to free speech covers that.) There is no curfew! The entertainment options are the same as they were whenever you decided to move to TV. You need to stop believing and spreading this false hysteria.

In fact, since this false notion of a curfew seems to live on in this thread, I wonder if the admins of TOTV need to be concerned about legal action from TV for allowing it to continue.

We are confusing the work CURFEW. No one is telling us we cant go outdoors after 8pm but we are being told that the entertainment we so love and the ability to socialize and have fun with our peers is severely limitted by not allowing music and dancing after 8pm.. What do we do go home and watch reruns on tv The rec centers close early too...This tells me..grow old,watch tv and croak while watching ......this is not the way I want to live the remaining years of my life

[rshoffer]

I've always believed life is a complete circle and we end up re-experiencing everything in our later years just like we did in our younger years. This thread sure confirms that.

[ConeyIsBabe]

Interesting rationale. However, this doesn't address the issue that none of the other CCs see the need to play late night entertainment and in fact many have no entertainment at all and they seem to do OK. If they would concentrate on quality food and good service they would do fine. Havana should take a lesson from them on this score. It is the closest to our neighborhood but no one wants to go there because of their poor service and mediocre food.

If they want to try some new concepts to bring people in, why not try indoor music - that's what a very popular restaurant where we used to live did. They had music that started around 8:30 or 9 as the dining wound down. That way people could eat and then stay in their seats to enjoy the music. The obvious benefit of this is that it is not dependant on the weather - too hot? too cold? too rainy? doesn't matter. The other benefit is that it doesn't annoy the neighbors.

I don't understand why everyone doesn't agree with this logical solution. When I lived in s/FL I was a member of the Coral Gables Country Club and enjoyed many indoor parties with great food, great music, friends, fun, etc. 'till the wee hours of morn; and no neighbors were disturbed by loud music.
:p

[bestmickey]

Not yet a resident, but I sure hoped to join KathieI and "the gang" to have fun dancing and enjoying music. I'm a Baby Boomer and I expect The Villages to change with the times, to more appropriately accommodate the younger folks (and those who are young at heart) moving in.

Of course, we can't and don't want to ignore the more mature long-term residents who like to go to bed by 9:00 PM. However, for The Villages to continue to be successful, they must change with the clientele. Along with having music/restaurant/bar venues open later and later, I think we should also begin seeing some change in music offered. I suggest the music choices vary more than is currently the case. I'd like to see music from the mid to late 60's ... going into the 70's. The Boomers' Woodstock era needs to be availalbe...at least one night a week (for the time being). Of course keep the current 50's offerings. Heck, I'd even like to see music from the 30's and 40's IMHO. Nothing better than Duke Elllington and Billie Holliday. But, I digress.

My vote goes to more offerings of later venues ... both indoors and outdoors. Yes, NJBlue I recognize you and a few others don't like the idea of outdoor music. And, we know that one very vocal person calls the cops on the Havana Club. I wouldn't be surprised if that call is made by a competing venue. Even if it is from one person in the neighborhood, one person living in the neighborhood complaining should not a rule make. After all, that's one thing the double paned windows are for ... they actually do keep out the noise. And, for security reasons alone, everyone should have their doors and windows closed and locked by the time they go to bed at 9:00 PM.

PARTY ON! :pepper2::pepper2::pepper2::pepper2::pepper2:

[bluedog103]

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o69/talkofthevillages/3075104-Mob-of-Torch-bearing-People.jpg
Very funny Talk Host. :a20: I was thinking more along the line of visiting with a cake and discussing our differences with coffee and a snack. Like I said, use your imagination. Hmmmmm

[NJblue]

My vote goes to more offerings of later venues ... both indoors and outdoors. Yes, NJBlue I recognize you and a few others don't like the idea of outdoor music.

I wonder how many times I have to repeat this. I have nothing against late night music - either indoors or out. I just don't like to see the rights trampled of the homeowners who bought in what they thought was going to be a residential neighborhood with peaceful evenings. TV was very well planned out for late night entertainment - just stick with the plan and keep the outdoor music where it was intended - in the town squares. If people want music in the CCs late at night, keep it indoors.

If people want to have outdoor music late at night with the two remaining CCs to be built south of 466A, have the people buying houses nearby sign a statement acknowledging that that is part of the new plan and then let the party begin.

As a fellow baby-boomer, I'm embarrassed that my generation seems to be living up to its negative stereotype: it's all about "me". Why not drive the few minutes to a town square and party all you want? Why is it necessary to disturb others to get some immediate gratification? Is a few extra minutes going to destroy the fun of an evening?

[F16 1UB]

Hmmm !?!?!?!?!?! "And MY point is" Don't you think your point has been made or are you trying to convince yourself. Yep - sounds like a political arena. :popcorn:

[otherbruddaDarrell]

NJBLUE
We are on the same page. Why is it that there are some that just do not get it?
It makes me wonder how many people that are actually whining about this so called curfew even go to Havana for the music instead of the squares.
I know that my wife and I don't, and I think the majority of residents do not go there as well.
If .050 of residents went there on any given night they could not accomodate the crowd!
If it was as big an issue as this forum makes it out to be then all the business owners would be pushing hard to get things changed.
How many people do you see driving in carts or cars in the evening?
I was a substitute gate attendant for a while and I can attest that the traffic is minimal in the evenings.:wave:
As a past business owner who went thru the process of getting a liquor license and fighting with the town (up north) I would not expect the public to fight my battles. We did that ourselves as a matter of doing business.
I just think that this whole "curfew" thing is really somewhat of an issue that should be persued by the CC involved if they think it is needed.
Here is a thought.......support the music on the squares, this is what is the bread and butter of TV!
So when it comes time for "the few" to picket for the Havana late night, outside music......count me out!
p.s. NJBLUE whatever beer you are having on your side is fine with me as long as it is cold!:beer3:

[homeball]

Hmmm !?!?!?!?!?! "And MY point is" Don't you think your point has been made or are you trying to convince yourself. Yep - sounds like a political arena. :popcorn:
I quite agree F16. But this is a fine example of someone getting stuck in a sand trap and not being able to get out. They took their swings. Now they should pick up their ball and MOVE ON.

Buckle up, F16. We're probably going to take some hits for these two posts.:duck:

[Freeda]

Just wanted to mention that I heard some information yesterday from someone who was at Havana last Sunday night; and who said that according to the manager there it was one homeowner who complained.

On the other hand, about 100 or more people were there, enjoying the outdoor music on the patio on a lovely Sunday evening, and they all or mostly left when the music stopped. The suggestion that it should not be just 'about me' as was mentioned earlier should apply to these facts, too; and it's hard to see this as a 'trampling' of rights if only one person complained, particularly if the music's sound volume complied with ordinances; some earlier posts said that it did; but the point is that unless it was shown that it didn't, then there was nothing wrong with the music playing.

The fact that there are venues at the squares does not answer the issue of the rights of other businesses, and the rights of villagers who prefer different or other types of - or later - entertainment, and different settings for it, to have other options, as long as they are not shown to be violative of the law.

Those who are content with the offerings at the squares - which do offer great entertainment - are free to limit themselves to there; but that does not justify them in imposing their choices, and those limitations, on everyone else.

[Boomer]

Hey! I bought the movie rights to this thread.

Here's the trailer. And if you watch closely you will see that the sheriff really was there.

(Just click on the youtube part of the link. And please don't throw anything at me. I have been sitting on this for two days, wondering if I should post it or not. Oh well, here goes. I hope you will turn on your speakers and smile a little. :duck:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaaYU-lZ3ac

Boomer

[Taltarzac]

We were down in October for the Italian Festival and the music and fun lasted past 9 . We were strolling along the LS walk and could hear music from a number of places on the water. Is this a new ordinance?

All I can say is IT'S TIME FOR TOOOOGA! TOGA TOGA TOGA

I still do not see anything in the ordinace posted for Sumter County which would empower the County Sheriff's office to put in a 8 p.m. noise limitation because the ordinace is about Sumter County. These "downtown" areas woud be what-- those of Oxford, Wildwood, Coleman, Lake Panasoffkee, Coleman, Croom-a-Coochee, Webster, Bushnell and a few small towns in between? Lake Sumter Landing seems to me to be more of a "downtown" area than any of these except maybe Bushnell's. I believe that Wildwood actually has a "curfew" in place at least for teens?

I also doubt that a country club in a large retirement community was what the writers of this ordinance had in mind with respect to putting in reasonable limitations on noise levels.

The 10 p.m. limit on "downtown" areas would seem to apply to Lake Sumter Landing if you put this ordinace in terms of Sumter County and not looking at it from say the Lake and/or Marion County perspective. Both Lake and Marion County have much bigger downtown areas in them than our rather rural Sumter County.

The posted Sumter County ordinace being used to limit entertainment on the squares seems like the Sheriff's office would be stretching the ordinace quite a bit farther than its authors intended.

I also do not see a restaurant with entertainment in a county club really being in the purview of the writers of the posted ordinance.

[784caroline]

Just curious, I imagine Havana has to have a county license to serve food, serve liquor. Does this also apply to having enteratinment either indoor or outdoor and if so, are there any restrictions (Time and decible level)?

The INDOOR solution as some claim is the answer, I doubt would work especially "in-season". Indoor entertainment would displace tables for diners. Also you simply cannot move from one location to another at 8pm due to set-up and break-up times involved.

If the developers wants CCs to be successful, which includes being creative to bring new business into the club, you would think they would go to bat with county commissioners for these business ventures or else they will close. A reasonable decible level and a reasonable time for closure should be set. Hard to believe such limits are not already in place.

If 8pm is the time limt, I think "Old Foggies Community" would be a more appropriate title for The Villages.

[Donna]

Hmmm !?!?!?!?!?! "And MY point is" Don't you think your point has been made or are you trying to convince yourself. Yep - sounds like a political arena. :popcorn:

:popcorn::clap2::thumbup:

[KathieI]

This is a Sumter County issue. The county Commissioners are holding a monthly meeting :
Title: Board of County Commissioners - Regular Meeting
Date: November 24, 2009
Address: 510 Colony Boulevard
The Villages, FL 32162
Location: Colony Cottage Recreation Center, Parlor Room
Hours: 5:00 PM
Contact: 352-793-0200
Email: Jessica.douglas@sumtercountyfl.gov
Maybe attending this meeting is an opportunity to bring something up to the powers that be. I don't know how open these meetings are. An interesting figure in today's paper shows the county population at about 95,000. The Villages probably constitutes the majority of the population.

Sumter County Link: http://www.sumtercountyfl.gov/index.aspx

The County Code showing beverage laws are accessable here.

Taking some of the suggestions that some of you have discussed with me in person, I think we need to have a small group of people attend this meeting on Nov. 24, and perhaps I can get the GM of Havana to join us. I don't agree with picketing and getting nasty on this issue, I just think we need to make a compromise within the letter of the law and make everyone happy. There have been excellent posts on this thread with a lot of passion and good information. Now its a matter of negotiating a compromise.

I think the first thing to do, is to contact the Sheriff's office to find out what is the problem here. I would think to we should all be on the same page with the Sheriff's office so that we can come up with a solution. I will try to stop by their office this afternoon to see if I can discuss this with anyone.

I don't want to be the leader of this entire situation and will ask for volunteers to assist me. Its WAYYYYY over my peabrain, so I'll look to some others for advice and assistance.

[NJblue]

Hmmm !?!?!?!?!?! "And MY point is" Don't you think your point has been made or are you trying to convince yourself. Yep - sounds like a political arena. :popcorn:

Sorry if I sound like a broken record to you F16. I congratulate you if you understand my point. Obviously there are others who just don't get it and think that:
- there is a curfew,
- entertainment options in the town squares are being curtailed,
- CCs have traditionally had late night outdoor music and are now being shut down,
- those who are advocating for the neighbors of Havana are against late night entertainment and just want the sidewalks rolled up at 8 PM

So, you really counted my posts??? Wow! As long as you are in a counting mood and as as long as you seem to understand my points, why not count up all the posts of the people who don't understand the above issues.

[Bogie Shooter]

This is beginning to look more and more like it should be in the political section.:clap2:

[NJblue]

Just wanted to mention that I heard some information yesterday from someone who was at Havana last Sunday night; and who said that according to the manager there it was one homeowner who complained.

On the other hand, about 100 or more people were there, enjoying the outdoor music on the patio on a lovely Sunday evening, and they all or mostly left when the music stopped. The suggestion that it should not be just 'about me' as was mentioned earlier should apply to these facts, too; and it's hard to see this as a 'trampling' of rights if only one person complained, particularly if the music's sound volume complied with ordinances; some earlier posts said that it did; but the point is that unless it was shown that it didn't, then there was nothing wrong with the music playing.

The fact that there are venues at the squares does not answer the issue of the rights of other businesses, and the rights of villagers who prefer different or other types of - or later - entertainment, and different settings for it, to have other options, as long as they are not shown to be violative of the law.

Those who are content with the offerings at the squares - which do offer great entertainment - are free to limit themselves to there; but that does not justify them in imposing their choices, and those limitations, on everyone else.

Freeda, you make some interesting and some valid points. However, let me comment on some of them:
1) Your first point about hearing from someone who heard from the manager is kind of like double hearsay, don't you think? Also, this was just one night. What about all of the other nights? Wouldn't a better metric of complaints be to sum up all of the complaints from unique individuals since the inception the late night entertainment?
2)Your assumption of the complainant being one person (whether this assumption is valid or not) being outweighed by the many people assumes that "loss" associated with each side is equivalent. In the case of the "many" the loss is no more than having to go a few minutes away to another venue. In the case of the homeowner(s) it is the nightly loss of the tranquility in their home and the limitation of the enjoyment of their home. Maybe it's just me, but I think the latter far outweighs a few minute's drive.
3) The claims that the legal limits on noise were met sound highly suspicious to me. As noted, the law talks about a quantitative measurement to be taken at 1,000 feet. Did the manager really do a complete analysis 1,000 feet in all directions? Not likely.
4) The law also seems to allow for a more subjective test based on a "reasonable person". As you indicated, this is somewhat arbitrary. However, I doubt very much that the sheriff's department would just accept a complaint from a single homeowner and then, without checking it out, go ahead and shut the music down. I would think that the deputy would first see how loud it was him or herself before taking any action. Given that the deputy would have to be assumed to be neutral in the issues (and hence a "reasonable person"), I have to think that the sound was pretty loud at the point(s) of complaint and failed the reasonable person test.


Oh, and F16, is this number 41? I need to know because the admins are paying me on a per-post basis to keep the view count up. This is sweeps month for internet advertising and this thread is going to let them jack their advertising rates way up.:D

[Karaoke Junkie]

i always suspected there was something in TV water. at 8 pm it kind of makes you drowzzzzzzz........

[ripwho]

My fav rock group , The Who , will be in Miami for Super Bowl halftime festivities.. I'm working on bringing them into Havana CC for a 'special' appearance! Talk about exceeding decibels....

[BobKat1]

My fav rock group , The Who , will be in Miami for Super Bowl halftime festivities.. I'm working on bringing them into Havana CC for a 'special' appearance! Talk about exceeding decibels....

I'm sure that Pete and Roger would turn down their amps if asked nicely....Or maybe play inside.

[Frangyomory]

This has to be an error!!! I know that the streets roll up in the squares after the entertainment is over but a CURFEW for adults?????? Who is running this place anyway????? What can we do about this....and I don't expect the Sun to say a word about it. Not good for business you know!!!

[Martha Kaye]

Freeda, you make some interesting and some valid points. However, let me comment on some of them:
1) Your first point about hearing from someone who heard from the manager is kind of like double hearsay, don't you think? Also, this was just one night. What about all of the other nights? Wouldn't a better metric of complaints be to sum up all of the complaints from unique individuals since the inception the late night entertainment?
2)Your assumption of the complainant being one person (whether this assumption is valid or not) being outweighed by the many people assumes that "loss" associated with each side is equivalent. In the case of the "many" the loss is no more than having to go a few minutes away to another venue. In the case of the homeowner(s) it is the nightly loss of the tranquility in their home and the limitation of the enjoyment of their home. Maybe it's just me, but I think the latter far outweighs a few minute's drive.
3) The claims that the legal limits on noise were met sound highly suspicious to me. As noted, the law talks about a quantitative measurement to be taken at 1,000 feet. Did the manager really do a complete analysis 1,000 feet in all directions? Not likely.
4) The law also seems to allow for a more subjective test based on a "reasonable person". As you indicated, this is somewhat arbitrary. However, I doubt very much that the sheriff's department would just accept a complaint from a single homeowner and then, without checking it out, go ahead and shut the music down. I would think that the deputy would first see how loud it was him or herself before taking any action. Given that the deputy would have to be assumed to be neutral in the issues (and hence a "reasonable person"), I have to think that the sound was pretty loud at the point(s) of complaint and failed the reasonable person test.


Oh, and F16, is this number 41? I need to know because the admins are paying me on a per-post basis to keep the view count up. This is sweeps month for internet advertising and this thread is going to let them jack their advertising rates way up.:D

GOOD POINTS!

Fran, Read the whole thread. Then come to the Lighthouse to enjoy live music tonight and open until midnight Thurs-Sat. every weekend.
Also know houses that back up to Havana have been blasted every night with loud, loud noise.

[JBOCH]

I do not think an 8:00 pm restriction for outside entertainment at the country clubs is resonable. I have been at the Havana country club and the Mallory country club for their outside entertainment and it did not seem to me to be extremely loud or obnoxious. I do not understand why someone who wants privacy and quiet would move near a country club when there are other location options for seerenity in TV. Most of us have moved to TV for the entertainment and to enjoy the outside. Particularly now that the temperatures are very comfortable. In fact, for about half of the year it is not even dark at 8:00PM.

I do not think that we should label this issue a "curfew". That label is a bit extreme and misleading. But this is a "restriction" that can hurt the business at our local country clubs and limit our options for enjoying outside entertainment. Especially during these nice weather months. 10PM seems to me to be very reasonable time to end outside entertainment.

[Karen83]

The beautiful lots behind Havana CC were being developed when we were looking to buy a home. I was very impressed with their view, but we immediately discounted them because of their proximity to the CC. and the lack of privacy and noise we might encounter.

Every house and lot down here has it's pluses and minuses, and one must decide what they are able to live with before buying. Music coming from a CC is a no brainer IMHO!

[BETHPAGE BLACK]

I came to the conclusion that these post are not worth my time and effort..so this will be the last.
I am not ashamed of the baby boomer stereotype,"all about me"..We have all put in our dedicated years when it was about "everyone else"..We've worked hard,raised our kids and YES...we are "deserving" of enjoying ourselves. We bought into the Villages for the lifestyle...fun, entertainment,activities and friendly people..
One Person is complaining...we should not all suffer because of one old crank..
Now that person is the stereotype "all about him/herself"....

[BobKat1]

I do not think an 8:00 pm restriction for outside entertainment at the country clubs is resonable. I have been at the Havana country club and the Mallory country club for their outside entertainment and it did not seem to me to be extremely loud or obnoxious. I do not understand why someone who wants privacy and quiet would move near a country club when there are other location options for seerenity in TV. Most of us have moved to TV for the entertainment and to enjoy the outside. Particularly now that the temperatures are very comfortable. In fact, for about half of the year it is not even dark at 8:00PM.

I do not think that we should label this issue a "curfew". That label is a bit extreme and misleading. But this is a "restriction" that can hurt the business at our local country clubs and limit our options for enjoying outside entertainment. Especially during these nice weather months. 10PM seems to me to be very reasonable time to end outside entertainment.


Makes sense to me...

[SUNNYMARYANN]

Linda from Mgt called me again today and The Villages powers that be had a meeting yesterday concerning this situation and they read the covenants or what ever you call them and there is only one exception to not having music shut down earlier than 9PM and that is if the Sheriff confirms that it is too loud. They were not aware of the problem and insist it is just a rumor and want more input from residents of the Villages about what is being said and whether or not there are witnesses who will confirm that the deputies are indeed appearing and shutting music down early. They are not happy about that it if is really happening.

[SUNNYMARYANN]

I think this is my last post about this subject. I am just satisfied that Linda was kind enough to call. I hope the situation gets resolved to the satisfaction of all the Villages residents. I look forward to someday before I get too much older and more decrepit to living in TV and enjoying all it has to offer, including music.

[gemorc]

Two points of interest to me:
1: Nowhere in the ordinance, as posted in the post #141, did I see 8 pm as the required time of closing. Why did the sheriff arbitrarily decide on 8 pm.
2: As far as the future of the golf course if the restuarant fails, the pro shop and golf course are operated by Golf Management Systems (GMS).

[Taj44]

GOOD POINTS!

Fran, Read the whole thread. Then come to the Lighthouse to enjoy live music tonight and open until midnight Thurs-Sat. every weekend.
Also know houses that back up to Havana have been blasted every night with loud, loud noise.

Martha Kaye - you're right on point. The houses by Havana have all been blasted with loud music. I really feel sorry for them. No one is saying there is a curfew. I don't understand why people are mindlessly ranting about that. My understanding is that the residents in Hemingway are just asking that a compromise be made - either cease or put the music inside after 8:00. Sounds fair to me. The party people can still dance and make merry INSIDE till all hours of the night, and the residents can enjoy their homes - a Win-Win situation.

[Talk Host]

Linda from Mgt .

I'm curious what "Mgt" is. What position does Linda have in Mgt.

This may have been explained somewhere in the previous 218 posts, but I can't find it.

JLK

[katezbox]

I think this is my last post about this subject. I am just satisfied that Linda was kind enough to call. I hope the situation gets resolved to the satisfaction of all the Villages residents. I look forward to someday before I get too much older and more decrepit to living in TV and enjoying all it has to offer, including music.

Mary Ann,

Thank you for taking the initiative to look into this. :wave:

Kate

PS This thread is the perfect example of how rumors start in TV (and how the radio and TV talk hosts continue to proliferate). Whalen wrote a post with curfew in the title. That obviosuly caught the attention of many - as headlines are meant to. How many subsequent posters actually read what she wrote beyond the headline? As NJBlue points out, he wouldn't need to repeat himself if folks would read the thread before posting.

[parks61]

What is going on there. I am coming down for 3 weeks starting Dec 5th and was wanting to have a good time. I have all ready paid my rent and this kind of information will killed the theme that THE VILLAGES IS THIS FRIENDLY HOME TOWN. I hope all of you living there jump on this with both feet............

[JeanneBeannie]

What is going on there. I am coming down for 3 weeks starting Dec 5th and was wanting to have a good time. I have all ready paid my rent and this kind of information will killed the theme that THE VILLAGES IS THIS FRIENDLY HOME TOWN. I hope all of you living there jump on this with both feet............

Not to worry Parks, you will have a wonderful time, I guarantee it! :pepper2:
And it is indeed The Friendliest Hometown, but as my Mother would say "there is always someone (grumps) to spoil the bunch. I have confidence that a resolution will be met and the fun will continue! See you in December!! :beer3:
Jeanne

[billethkid]

disappointed. The subject being thrashed here is as most are a relative issue...where one lives...what one thinks....etc...

Most importantly it is a 1% issue!!!!!!!!!! Therefore really does not affect life per se as intended to be lived in TV.

If one does not have a good time and a good stay in TV it can ONLY be by choice.

btk

[parks61]

Not to worry Parks, you will have a wonderful time, I guarantee it! :pepper2:
And it is indeed The Friendliest Hometown, but as my Mother would say "there is always someone (grumps) to spoil the bunch. I have confidence that a resolution will be met and the fun will continue! See you in December!! :beer3:
Jeanne

after I posted mine. Like putting the cart in front of the horse. It was a long read to read them all but a good one. I was at TV last Sept for a week and stayed very close to this CC and never heard a thing. Played golf there -it was very nice - had lunch and a beer - very nice - played with members all very nice. I never met any "grumps" the week I was there but like everywhere they are around. I did enjoy all the posts and the reaction's to some - I love people with opinion's and people who will speak out. One person complains and WOW all this. I plan on having a ball while I'm there! :blahblahblah:

[Freeda]

Good news! I spoke just a few minutes ago with Melissa, one of the Havana managers, who said that the Sumter police met with them this morning and told them that they may have outdoor entertainment until 10 PM as long as the sound meets the ordinance decibel limitations! She said that their outdoor evening entertainment is Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.

[skip0358]

:MOJE_whot::MOJE_whot:The End I hope:clap2::clap2:

[twynsmom]

:MOJE_whot::MOJE_whot:The End I hope:clap2::clap2:

:read: AMEN!

[Talk Host]

:moje_whot::moje_whot:the end i hope:clap2::clap2:

shhhhhhhh!

[MelZ]

Excellent

:mademyday::mademyday::mademyday:

[KathieI]

Wow, that's fantastic, Freeda!! Quick work done by our Sheriff's Dept!!!

Yesterday, I spent about an hour with the assistant to the sheriff and discussed how serious and upset many villagers were with this limitation being put on us by their department. We agreed that a meeting of the minds would be appropriate to include the GM of Havana to come up with a resolution that would work for everyone. She was extremely nice and knowledgeable and I knew that she would follow through with Lt. Nehemiah Wolfe for us. Her name is Theresa Elliott and she was a fantastic representative of the Sheriff's office. She knew of TOTV and told me that she has been on this forum many times to view certain topics......

I'd like to say that this resolution was due to the power and influence of TOTV and its many smart members who offered their points of view.

Good Job, let's partyyyyyyy!! But quietly, of course!!

[j22jay]

As most of you know, the Sumter County Sheiff is indeed an elected official. Isn't it interesting that the Sheriff and his staff, would spend the time and staffing to continue this vendetta against only a few restaurants and clubs in TV? Of course, many of us will choose to select our CC and/or restaurants/bars with live music in Marion or Lake county to avoid the schoolyard curfew imposed in Sumter co. Is that the goal? Sumter co. coffers are in great shape, and obviously have chosen to spend resources to patrol and coerce business owners into compliance into an invisible co. code. Unfortunately, if we all just drive north to Spanish Springs, etc., those of us who live and work in Sumter co., have, in reality, given the Sheriff's dept, our vote of approval. We need all the restaurants and bars who offer live entertainment at LSL. We need for them to be busy and allow the owners and staff to reap the financial rewards that they deserve. Are you kidding me? In this economy, we are allowing FLE to be the watchdog of our free enterprise system? Success? "outdoor entertainment until 10 PM "?! ...maybe for Middle School children.

[carm310]

Wow, that's fantastic, Freeda!! Quick work done by our Sheriff's Dept!!!

Yesterday, I spent about an hour with the assistant to the sheriff and discussed how serious and upset many villagers were with this limitation being put on us by their department. We agreed that a meeting of the minds would be appropriate to include the GM of Havana to come up with a resolution that would work for everyone. She was extremely nice and knowledgeable and I knew that she would follow through with Lt. Nehemiah Wolfe for us. Her name is Theresa Elliott and she was a fantastic representative of the Sheriff's office. She knew of TOTV and told me that she has been on this forum many times to view certain topics......

I'd like to say that this resolution was due to the power and influence of TOTV and its many smart members who offered their points of view.

Good Job, let's partyyyyyyy!! But quietly, of course!!


Well, I have been watching all week, :popcorn: ...glad to see a happy ending to the drama.

On another note, we leave for the airport in 1/2 hour and should be arriving just prior to the Glen Beck madness in the square, may try to get a glimpse of the fun. Hope to see some of you this week for a proper introduction! :-D

[JeanneBeannie]

GREAT NEWS!! LET THE FUN BEGIN!!!
:MOJE_whot::MOJE_whot::MOJE_whot:

Thank you Kathie and Freeda and TOTV'ers for voicing your opinions!
Good job by all!! :beer3:

JeanneBeannie :pepper2:

[nONIE]

So happy to hear that a reasonable compromise was reached! :thumbup:

I think in most, if not all situations a solution can be worked out without all the nastiness.

Carm, I am anxious to meet a fellow Chicagoan. Let us know when your ready
to party!

[Taltarzac]

Wow, that's fantastic, Freeda!! Quick work done by our Sheriff's Dept!!!

Yesterday, I spent about an hour with the assistant to the sheriff and discussed how serious and upset many villagers were with this limitation being put on us by their department. We agreed that a meeting of the minds would be appropriate to include the GM of Havana to come up with a resolution that would work for everyone. She was extremely nice and knowledgeable and I knew that she would follow through with Lt. Nehemiah Wolfe for us. Her name is Theresa Elliott and she was a fantastic representative of the Sheriff's office. She knew of TOTV and told me that she has been on this forum many times to view certain topics......

I'd like to say that this resolution was due to the power and influence of TOTV and its many smart members who offered their points of view.

Good Job, let's partyyyyyyy!! But quietly, of course!!


I was wondering how the Sumter County Law Enforcement were going to re-act to your meeting with them. Cannot see how you can have a relatively noisy sports arena (the Villages High School stadiums) in a retirement community which often has night time events while also trying to impose a 8 p.m. outdoor entertainment on country clubs.

[ripwho]

Good job freeda !!! As mentioned earlier I did get the 'Who" to come to town day after super bowl .. they promise to play 'unplugged acoustic' after 10pm! :icon_wink::):icon_wink:

[Freeda]

Good job freeda !!! As mentioned earlier I did get the 'Who" to come to town day after super bowl .. they promise to play 'unplugged acoustic' after 10pm! :icon_wink::):icon_wink:

Well, will you ask them to be sure to do Pinball Wizard before 10 PM

[SABRMnLgs]

The last time I can remember having a curfew, I was about 16-17. That was because I still lived in my parents home and lived by their rules. Never heard of a curfew after I hit 18 much less in my sixties. Figures it would be here. Gotta rule/law for every little thing.

[DDoug]

Why dont TOTV get a march on city hall going and demand a change maybe a sit in. Remember the 60's

[billethkid]

Thanx are extended to those who carried the ball.

Isn't democracy wonderful when it is put to work?

btk

[katezbox]

Thanx are extended to those who carried the ball.

Isn't democracy wonderful when it is put to work?

btk

BTK,

You are so right. But notice the continuing posts of those who didn't read the thread through to the end....

[Talk Host]

BTK,

You are so right. But notice the continuing posts of those who didn't read the thread through to the end....

I am as guilty as anybody. I hardly ever read ALL of the posts in a long thread. Sometimes it bites me. :loco:

JLK

[KathieI]

BTK,

You are so right. But notice the continuing posts of those who didn't read the thread through to the end....

I'm guilty too, TH. With 244 posts, I wouldn't read all of them either. Too much to do and soooo little time... :jester:

[Bogie Shooter]

What is going on there. I am coming down for 3 weeks starting Dec 5th and was wanting to have a good time. I have all ready paid my rent and this kind of information will killed the theme that THE VILLAGES IS THIS FRIENDLY HOME TOWN. I hope all of you living there jump on this with both feet............

read the posts!

[chuckster]

I agree, before you jump in with both feet take the time to read the posts and realize there is NO CURFEW and the noise issue at Havana CC (where the noise issue came from) was RESOLVED. Relax and enjoy.......:beer3:

[pili]

Can someone tell me what was the issue with HCC? I just read that they are back to playing music. Were they shut down for a while? I heard there had been complaints regarding loudness but I didn't think they were shut down. From what I just read they can now have music till 10pm. We have been at Mallory's on Saturday pm and the music stops playing at 8pm. To me that's too early. I agree is ridiculous to impose a "curfew" because "a few" do not like loud music. It seems to me that if you buy near a place with entertainment you should know there will be music.

[BobKat1]

The "Search" feature is your friend.