Traffic Study shows proposed major roadways planned for Southern Oaks

[Goldwingnut]

Amendments to the traffic study associated with the Southern Oaks development of The Villages being presented to the City of Wildwood shows the major roadways and sizing planned for the known areas of development.

Also listed in the study is "the cumulative proposed land uses for the Villages of Southern Oaks":

26,590 residential dwelling units
765,000 square feet office/government
8,945,000 square feet retail/commercial


While the number of homes is not unexpected, the amount of retail/commercial space (>200 acres) is telling of good things to come for much needed businesses to support the growth of the area.

[rustyp]

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[Amb3rTastic]

A little voice in the back of my head is saying is it time to get concerned about this piece meal type planning. It appears the population of The Villages could easily approach 200K. Compare this to St Pete at 245K and Orlando at 238K. The roads in this area can not support that kind of growth. Take a look at a map and observe the expressways, by passes, etc surrounding those areas. Given the three county location and multiple city occupation of The Villages who is in charge of the long term grand integrated plan ?

I have been saying this for years! As a local, it's so frustrating!! It takes me 30 minutes to get home from work, where, in the morning, it only takes me 10-15 minutes! Plus, the congestion in Lady Lake is insane! The population to roadway "ratio" just isn't working, anymore! This was a small town area, it's grown so much, but they haven't done anything to help relieve the roadway congestion.
We need more big-name businesses built, Home Depot, Target, Joanns, SAM'S CLUB!!!, etc. that could at least give it a start.

[Rowenfl]

Costco, Miller's Ale house, BJ's Brewhouse,

[Wiotte]

A little voice in the back of my head is saying is it time to get concerned about this piece meal type planning. It appears the population of The Villages could easily approach 200K. Compare this to St Pete at 245K and Orlando at 238K. The roads in this area can not support that kind of growth. Take a look at a map and observe the expressways, by passes, etc surrounding those areas. Given the three county location and multiple city occupation of The Villages who is in charge of the long term grand integrated plan ?



You are correct. Typically a county or region having a heads up to future demand will commission a 10 to 20 year master plan implemented first, before any permits are issued.
I’ve never lived through growth at this pace but I do know there are cities that regret not having the foresight to limit unchecked growth. Midget politicians signing off on whatever a greedy developer wants is a recipe for disaster in the future. I won’t want to be here. What will this place will look like when younger baby boomers and older generation X’ers need to sell their homes
in 20 years or so with a non- existent millennial market
to sell to. The economy here is based on catering to relatively affluent homeowners. Once they dwindle away who will buy these houses ?


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[graciegirl]

I have been saying this for years! As a local, it's so frustrating!! It takes me 30 minutes to get home from work, where, in the morning, it only takes me 10-15 minutes! Plus, the congestion in Lady Lake is insane! The population to roadway "ratio" just isn't working, anymore! This was a small town area, it's grown so much, but they haven't done anything to help relieve the roadway congestion.
We need more big-name businesses built, Home Depot, Target, Joanns, SAM'S CLUB!!!, etc. that could at least give it a start.

Amber. I think you mentioned you are a millennial. Years to you and years to us VILLAGERS are different.

Small towns have been growing for as long as there has been recorded history. IF "The Villages" didn't build homes, SOMEONE would be building homes here. We have a lot of good stuff drawing people to live here. Florida has become the third most populous state in the last four years.

And who are THEY? We the people are "They".

I see no evidence of "piecemeal planning", this area has better planning than areas that just "spring up".

I also remind you Amber that this is the middle of the "High Season" where the entire state has swollen population. It is cold up North. People come here and rent and people come here and visit the renters. People come here and visit the owners too. March 31st is coming and our "normal" will soon be here.

[Chi-Town]

I have been saying this for years! As a local, it's so frustrating!! It takes me 30 minutes to get home from work, where, in the morning, it only takes me 10-15 minutes! Plus, the congestion in Lady Lake is insane! The population to roadway "ratio" just isn't working, anymore! This was a small town area, it's grown so much, but they haven't done anything to help relieve the roadway congestion.
We need more big-name businesses built, Home Depot, Target, Joanns, SAM'S CLUB!!!, etc. that could at least give it a start.Traffic times sure depend on one's field of experience. I never knew a 30 minute travel time in the Chicago area. And throw in a foot of snow like today and this is what you get...


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180209/f7b60533fed53bd82f481d1fb3b7fcd2.jpg

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[PaulDenise]

Odd that Buena Vista is still mapped to be straight south of Brownwood rather than continuing from where Beuna Vista now hits 44.

Also, the yellow outline of owned property really shows the mass of land south of the prison and 470. Looks bigger than all the rest down there currently mapped for development.

[Amb3rTastic]

Traffic times sure depend on one's field of experience. I never knew a 30 minute travel time in the Chicago area. And throw in a foot of snow like today and this is what you get...


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180209/f7b60533fed53bd82f481d1fb3b7fcd2.jpg

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Oh boy! :22yikes:

With the growing traffic, we'll be seeing that more and more often WITHOUT the snow!

[Chi-Town]

Oh boy! :22yikes:

With the growing traffic, we'll be seeing that more and more often WITHOUT the snow!That would be no fun, believe me. It's maddening to watch a stoplight change 2 or 3 times before you get through the intersection.

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[Polar Bear]

...Apparently some of our definition of foresight differs.
No amount of foresight prevents traffic hot spots...unless there is unlimited funding of course. Do you want to pay the required taxes?

Actually unlimited money wouldn’t even do it. It takes time...a lot of time...to plan, design, permit, and construct road projects. Congested traffic hot spots are a part of modern society. No highly developed area is without them...even with all the foresight in the world.

[Polar Bear]

A little voice in the back of my head is saying is it time to get concerned about this piece meal type planning. It appears the population of The Villages could easily approach 200K. Compare this to St Pete at 245K...
Cherry pick useful sounding info much? St. Pete is part of a contiguous urban area, the population of which is roughly 3,000,000. Yeah, I didn’t accidentally add a zero. That’s 3M people.

Your comparison holds not one drop of water.

[Carpe Diem]

Thanks for the map, Goldwingnut!
Keep them coming.

[villagetinker]

Odd that Buena Vista is still mapped to be straight south of Brownwood rather than continuing from where Beuna Vista now hits 44.

Also, the yellow outline of owned property really shows the mass of land south of the prison and 470. Looks bigger than all the rest down there currently mapped for development.

I took the map, and overlaid with Google maps, and you are correct, the extension of Buena Vista does NOT line up with the existing Buena Vista at 44. Buena Vista Blvd, becomes Heritage Blvd south of 44 and goes through a development, so unless the county was going to buy all of those houses, it could not go straight across 44, too bad.

[rustyp]

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[graciegirl]

Cherry pick useful sounding info much? St. Pete is part of a contiguous urban area, the population of which is roughly 3,000,000. Yeah, I didn’t accidentally add a zero. That’s 3M people.

Your comparison holds not one drop of water.

You are right about the contiguous area of Tampa-St.Pete-Clearwater. Three MILLION.

Tampa Bay Area - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Bay_Area)

[rustyp]

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[Fenney5776]

Amendments to the traffic study associated with the Southern Oaks development of The Villages being presented to the City of Wildwood shows the major roadways and sizing planned for the known areas of development.

Also listed in the study is "the cumulative proposed land uses for the Villages of Southern Oaks":

26,590 residential dwelling units
765,000 square feet office/government
8,945,000 square feet retail/commercial


While the number of homes is not unexpected, the amount of retail/commercial space (>200 acres) is telling of good things to come for much needed businesses to support the growth of the area.

What is the black dotted line that goes through and around the south side of Fenney and DeSoto?

[dotti105]

Hubby and I grew up in Clearwater, Florida. Clearwater, Largo, Pinellas Park, St Petersburg, Tampa, Oldsmar, Safety Harbor, etc, is all one huge mass of population. You can not tell when one ends and the next begins. When we were in Middle School they were doing major construction on US Hwy 19. Guess what, they still are. When I-4 was built it was a major construction headache. Guess what, they are still doing construction. It is always too little, too late.

DOT work in Florida has always been handled after the fact. Look at I-75. Again, too little, too late. Closer to home, 466A, too little, too late.

We are very fortunate that The Villages sits close enough to have access to the Toll Road and to I-75. Also the Roundabouts, which can cause their own set of problems, do relieve stop and go bumper to bumper traffic jams.

The Villages may end up being 200,000+ population. But the population/traffic that is here now is very well handled. Amenities, shopping, businesses are spread out and well placed. The Morse family has 30 yrs of land development experience and they have learned a great deal over the course of that time. The traffic for our 120,000 population runs very smoothly.

The growth south of us will bring in better shopping, more services, more jobs for those who live in the surrounding areas. These 3 counties have been 3 of the poorest counties in Florida. The impact of the Villages has increased the income levels in each and has brought a huge increase in the tax income of each county. As the Villages grows, so does the prosperity of the younger citizens in our 3 counties. It will not affect those who live north of 44 or 466A to any great extent. Just as the growth of businesses and increase in traffic on 441 in Lady Lake do not really impact the daily lives of those of us who live south of 466A.

Some people come on here sounding paranoid about future growth. Simply look at the planning that has gone into The Villages thus far. It is much better than Orlando, St Pete, Chicago, Atlanta, Miami. Really it is better than just about any other place you could name. Can things be improved? Yes, and they are. 466A road widening is finally headed into it's final stages. New businesses are coming in along 44 with space set aside for commercial usage in the new areas being developed to the south.

There will be plenty of space for all the new Villagers to be, without taking anything away from our long time residents, and our surrounding communities. If you can find a better planned rapidly growing community, then put your house on the market and head there. We wish you the best, and so do the future owners of your home.

[pauld315]

The city of Miami might only be around 450,000 but when measuring the population of that area it is far more accurate to cite the population of the Miami Metropolitan Statistic Area which is over 6 Million. Contrast that with the population of The Villages Metropolitan Statistic Area published as being 123,996 in 2016. I have lived in a couple very fast growing areas in my life and I think they are doing a fairly good job here in planning comparatively. I am hoping that as businesses come into the southern areas it will help alleviate a lot of the current traffic issues. They could also do a lot to computerize the signals based on time of day, traffic demands etc which would help a lot.

[JoMar]

And the sky continues to fall yet the Chicken Little's continue to stay here......why is that?

[Wiotte]

And the sky continues to fall yet the Chicken Little's continue to stay here......why is that?



We’re waiting for the peak, then hitting the road with a pile of cash. First in, first out as they say.
First sign of a downtrend we’re out of here.
What’s more important than money ? NOTHING.


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[circletrack]

The city of Miami might only be around 450,000 but when measuring the population of that area it is far more accurate to cite the population of the Miami Metropolitan Statistic Area which is over 6 Million. Contrast that with the population of The Villages Metropolitan Statistic Area published as being 123,996 in 2016. I have lived in a couple very fast growing areas in my life and I think they are doing a fairly good job here in planning comparatively. I am hoping that as businesses come into the southern areas it will help alleviate a lot of the current traffic issues. They could also do a lot to computerize the signals based on time of day, traffic demands etc which would help a lot.

Agreed. As they’ve continued to develop, they’ve been widening many single lane roads into multiple lanes. What more do we need? A full fledged expressway down the middle? That’s not going to happen. The Villages MSA has a relatively low population. You will never see the kind of infrastructure here that you would in a huge metro market. I’m still not sure why folks in Lady Lake are worried that the people in Fenney and Soithern Oaks will be crowding the northern roadways. When it’s all said and done there will be plenty of retail space and restaurants to serve that end of the community.

[Duppa]

Amber. I think you mentioned you are a millennial. Years to you and years to us VILLAGERS are different.

Small towns have been growing for as long as there has been recorded history. IF "The Villages" didn't build homes, SOMEONE would be building homes here. We have a lot of good stuff drawing people to live here. Florida has become the third most populous state in the last four years.

And who are THEY? We the people are "They".

I see no evidence of "piecemeal planning", this area has better planning than areas that just "spring up".

I also remind you Amber that this is the middle of the "High Season" where the entire state has swollen population. It is cold up North. People come here and rent and people come here and visit the renters. People come here and visit the owners too. March 31st is coming and our "normal" will soon be here.

Gracie nails it, again. We have the best planners on the planet working for us (and with us)... and the fruits of their labor, with OUR contributions and cooperation, are stunningly evident everywhere we look. The Villages IS the most amazing place; we have more of all that is good in a community than anywhere on earth... anywhere on Earth. Count (and complain) as you will, but we should be respectfully thankful. Anything can happen, and what we do now others will have to live with later, but for the now, as John Lennon sang: Let It Be!

[billethkid]

The developers of TV have been accused of a lot of, mostly, undeserved criticism.

The observation that the planning is "piecemeal" sets a record for inaccuracy.

TV is a model of exceptionally detailed master planning, and development. And then executing the plan. All amenities and recreation and shopping and life style impacting facilities and utilities put in long before any homes built.

The opinion of piecemeal is very biased and some how/ some reason distorted....compared to the other 99.846573 % of us.

[vintageogauge]

Based on what was in yesterdays paper and now on TV website, it's not Lady Lake that should be worrying about the southern villagers going north, it's more like the south should be worried about the northern villagers coming south. The amenities that are going to be here are great along with easy access to the turnpike and I-75. Dirt is already being moved for the Magnolia and River Birch Plaza's, that will be a plus for grocery shopping, banking, gas, etc. DeSoto is well underway along with all of it's great amenities nearing completion, and the road has started into McClure, it won't belong before Fenney way has another exit onto 468 just west of 501. Selling seems to be brisk as moving trucks, Pods and uPacks seem to be everywhere, many lots have been sold for custom builds and there are already 1100 residents here, not bad for the first year as there wasn't much to choose from even 9 months ago and even less when selling began in February. I'm sure that a lot of the uncertainty has now been alleviated after the release of all the new information and selling will be even more brisk. Once the proposed tunnels and bridges are complete and especially after Buena Vista makes it at least to 468 it will be a whole new ballgame, those who want to venture north will have easy access as long as they have the time and a full tank or full charge. Lots to look forward to, just gotta stay healthy.

[Goldwingnut]

Agreed, piecemeal planning is far from what is done here. They have long term plans that are well developed and thought out. The traffic study that was included in the Wildwood council package lists 25K+ homes planned for the southern oaks area, that, at the current sell rate, is roughly 10 years of volume, any planning out that far in the construction business is filled with risk.

What is lacking here is planning by the local municipalities, a prime example is the shameful mess known as Micro Racetrack and Rolling Acres drive. Both make up a major corridors of traffic that failed to be accounted for by the planners in Fruitland Park and Lady Lake. The tax revenue and impact funds that have come from the construction in The Villages is not being wisely spent on beefing up the infrastructure. In other communities they would have to deal not only with additional roads but schools as well. The money not being spent on additional schools in the area should a) relieve substantial burden on other infrastructure construction budgets, and b) the schools that are here should be much better funded than they are, the schools in Wildwood are an embarrassment to all the residents of Sumter County.

The roads and other infrastructure outside The Villages property are the responsibility of the cities and the counties, not the Developer to solve. The Developer is giving both lots of heads up on what is to come.

One more thought on the whole congestion issue. This area cannot be compared in any way to any other urban area. We have no mass exodus of traffic to get to & from work, with over 100K people in the area of which only a few % of us still working and no significant major industries in the vicinity traffic is minimal compared to other areas. There is also no mass movement of people moving to and from any specific area except the rare major event at one of the town squares, shopping and other services are distributed throughout and growing more ever week. Even when there is something going on traffic on the roads are lessened by the utilization of alternate transportation means (golf carts!).

What's the hurry, you're retired!

[rustyp]

My original post has been manipulated way out of context.

"A little voice in the back of my head is saying is it time to get concerned about this piece meal type planning. It appears the population of The Villages could easily approach 200K. Compare this to St Pete at 245K and Orlando at 238K. The roads in this area can not support that kind of growth. Take a look at a map and observe the expressways, by passes, etc surrounding those areas. Given the three county location and multiple city occupation of The Villages who is in charge of the long term grand integrated plan ?"

It was not intended to bash The Developer or insinuate in any manner this is not the great place to live. It my opinion it is a legitimate question of who is responsible for the long term integrated plan not just for The Villages but the entire metropolitan area that is being created " a step at a time". For one minute do any of you believe The Developers would tip their hand at the expense of driving up land prices in areas they are trying to pursue for the future. That's also not meant as a slam. That equals normal expected business practice. We did not elect The Developers to represent us. We chose to live in a place they provided. But the people in the surrounding communities of Lady Lake, Wildwood, Leesburg, Fruitland Park, etc. did not choose to live inside The Villages. Convince them that the planning has felt integrated and not "piece meal". And also "piece meal" does not translate to miserable failure. We can also argue about the population of which I sited facts and we got to the point of redefining them. But I agree with your points of those areas encompass other cities and the combined population is much higher. Is that not exactly where this area is headed. It will be a metropolitan area from Ocala to Orlando.

[twoplanekid]

Agreed, piecemeal planning is far from what is done here. They have long term plans that are well developed and thought out. The traffic study that was included in the Wildwood council package lists 25K+ homes planned for the southern oaks area, that, at the current sell rate, is roughly 10 years of volume, any planning out that far in the construction business is filled with risk.

What is lacking here is planning by the local municipalities, a prime example is the shameful mess known as Micro Racetrack and Rolling Acres drive. Both make up a major corridors of traffic that failed to be accounted for by the planners in Fruitland Park and Lady Lake. The tax revenue and impact funds that have come from the construction in The Villages is not being wisely spent on beefing up the infrastructure. In other communities they would have to deal not only with additional roads but schools as well. The money not being spent on additional schools in the area should a) relieve substantial burden on other infrastructure construction budgets, and b) the schools that are here should be much better funded than they are, the schools in Wildwood are an embarrassment to all the residents of Sumter County.

The roads and other infrastructure outside The Villages property are the responsibility of the cities and the counties, not the Developer to solve. The Developer is giving both lots of heads up on what is to come.

One more thought on the whole congestion issue. This area cannot be compared in any way to any other urban area. We have no mass exodus of traffic to get to & from work, with over 100K people in the area of which only a few % of us still working and no significant major industries in the vicinity traffic is minimal compared to other areas. There is also no mass movement of people moving to and from any specific area except the rare major event at one of the town squares, shopping and other services are distributed throughout and growing more ever week. Even when there is something going on traffic on the roads are lessened by the utilization of alternate transportation means (golf carts!).

What's the hurry, you're retired!


Agree, as I used this road today to notice a lot of traffic dodging potholes on a very narrow road. At some point in time, it will be quicker to stay on Morse to travel from south of 466A to way up north in the Villages.

[JoelJohnson]

It's the law of unintended consequences.

When the interstate highway system was developed people found that they could live in the suburbs and get to work in no time. Well, we now know how that worked out. If new roads were created, it would just encourage more people to move here because they could get around fast. But, after while, we would have gridlock.

The easier you make it for people to get around, more people will take advantage of it and the cycle starts all over again.

[Bogie Shooter]

We’re waiting for the peak, then hitting the road with a pile of cash. First in, first out as they say.
First sign of a downtrend we’re out of here.
What’s more important than money ? NOTHING.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why wait? You may miss the "peak"

[justjim]

Odd that Buena Vista is still mapped to be straight south of Brownwood rather than continuing from where Beuna Vista now hits 44.

Also, the yellow outline of owned property really shows the mass of land south of the prison and 470. Looks bigger than all the rest down there currently mapped for development.

According to Mr. Google the Coleman Federal Correction Complex is 1,600 acres and is the largest BOP housing 7,200 prisioners. The prisioners on average have sentences of 10 years....:shrug:

[justjim]

I took the map, and overlaid with Google maps, and you are correct, the extension of Buena Vista does NOT line up with the existing Buena Vista at 44. Buena Vista Blvd, becomes Heritage Blvd south of 44 and goes through a development, so unless the county was going to buy all of those houses, it could not go straight across 44, too bad.

The areas to the south of 44 were developed for many reasons but one for sure....to enhance the investment the Developer has in the Brownwood complex. Tinker you are correct Buena Vista will end at 44.

[GoodLife]

Based on what was in yesterdays paper and now on TV website, it's not Lady Lake that should be worrying about the southern villagers going north, it's more like the south should be worried about the northern villagers coming south. The amenities that are going to be here are great along with easy access to the turnpike and I-75.

Look, we're happy that you are happy but time to get real. There are absolutely zero reasons why I , a Northern Villager would make a one hour trip in my golf cart (which is impossible now), or 30 minute trek in my car to use Fenny area amenities and currently non existent shopping opportunities. I already have a plethora of golf courses, swimming pools, rec centers, shopping, medical offices, and restaurants that I can get to within 5-15 minutes in my golf cart. I also have access to amenities like the Polo Fields, Savannah and Sharon entertainment centers, 2 bowling alleys, the two most popular town centers etc etc In time Fenney area will be great I am sure but it has zero attraction for those of us that enjoy everything right now.

[GoodLife]

The areas to the south of 44 were developed for many reasons but one for sure....to enhance the investment the Developer has in the Brownwood complex. Tinker you are correct Buena Vista will end at 44.

You have it backwards. The Morse family makes the bulk of their profits from selling homes. Town Centers, golf courses, pools etc are amenities designed to sell the homes. Yes they make profits on the amenities but consider the profits from selling 26,000 homes vs the leases from buildings in Brownwood. There is no contest.

[champion6]

<snip> What is lacking here is planning by the local municipalities, a prime example is the shameful mess known as Micro Racetrack and Rolling Acres drive. Both make up a major corridors of traffic that failed to be accounted for by the planners in Fruitland Park and Lady Lake. The tax revenue and impact funds that have come from the construction in The Villages is not being wisely spent on beefing up the infrastructure. <snip>
The roads and other infrastructure outside The Villages property are the responsibility of the cities and the counties, not the Developer to solve. The Developer is giving both lots of heads up on what is to come. <snip> The conversation about planning boils down to money. The jurisdictions that hire the planners can't afford to upgrade infrastructure as fast as we citizens think they should.

For example, Micro Racetrack Rd and most of Rolling Acres Rd are both in unincorporated Lake County. Since the housing crash, Lake County has suffered a financial crunch. Also, Lake County is so large, the needs near The Villages do not rank significantly higher than other areas in Lake County. It's all about priorities.

[ColdNoMore]

As my California buddy told me over 25 years ago, as we were headed to our tee time for a 36 hole day and seeing nothing but solid headlights heading to work in the dark at 6:00AM; "Take a good look at that traffic...as it will never be less than it is now."

Which actually applies to almost anywhere, but especially here given the fact of our growth and that The Developer's family isn't getting smaller...so they all need their piece of the pie. :shrug: