FL school shooting - NON-POLITICAL

[schrdr]

I see all the TV media sticky their mics into the faces of kids to parrot the anti gun message. They are so outraged but were was their outrage when they bullied this kid in school. They helped create this monster. Bullying is a common thread to all these monsters. Spare me the indication.

You will never hear this point discussed in our media

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

here we go, yet again. We live in a large free country with many diverse people, and some have serious mental or social issues. As is the case in this latest one.

I am a true Independent and believe in different sides of all issues facing us in the USA. But the gun issue is one that I have steadily moved to the "Something has GOT to be done" side. Seems as if the Gun Control laws in many areas such as Chicago do not work. Perhaps it's enforcement matter or simply the Black Market or purchasing elsewhere and bringing them into the 'war zone'.

What truly saddens me is the easy availability of semi-automatic weapons and mass lethal ammo. How these weapons can be obtained at gun shows etc without checks or such is maddening. No idea where this perp got his weapons - or how he afforded them. But he did and apparently many knew he had them.

Then we come to the Social ills. Mental issues. Little family structure. The violent video games. And more..

Apparently this young man has had multiple run-ins, friends knew of his issues, social media postings and such.

We can protect our schools and buildings just so much. If they want to get in they will. And now - the fire alarm matter - what to do now...how to have students obey an alarm or not??? How can students concentrate on classes?

Sad for our country and the people that were impacted by this and other events. But one thing for sure this will be a big topic for weeks....then a memory....then another. repeat - UNTIL SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE REAL CHANGES THAT HAVE SOME IMPACT.


You can not by semi-automatic rifles, or any guns at a gun show without a background check. That is a myth. The only time a background check is not needed is when a firearm is being transferred a member of the immediate family.

What could be done to all but eliminate school shootings is to require that every teacher and administrator be licensed, trained and armed while at school. That would stop 90% or more of the shootings. On the rare occasion that it might be tried this would minimize the damage by having several people who are able to take out the shooter before he could shoot more innocent victims.

The police protect the citizens by being armed, our politicians are protected by people with guns, we protect our money and sometimes out stores with armed guards. Are our children not important enough to protect with armed guards?

The reason that it should be teachers and administrators doing this is simply economics. No school, system, municipality or state would be able to pay enough armed guards to make a school safe.

[ColdNoMore]

You can not by semi-automatic rifles, or any guns at a gun show without a background check. That is a myth. The only time a background check is not needed is when a firearm is being transferred a member of the immediate family.

What could be done to all but eliminate school shootings is to require that every teacher and administrator be licensed, trained and armed while at school. That would stop 90% or more of the shootings. On the rare occasion that it might be tried this would minimize the damage by having several people who are able to take out the shooter before he could shoot more innocent victims.

The police protect the citizens by being armed, our politicians are protected by people with guns, we protect our money and sometimes out stores with armed guards. Are our children not important enough to protect with armed guards?

The reason that it should be teachers and administrators doing this is simply economics. No school, system, municipality or state would be able to pay enough armed guards to make a school safe.

The underlined above...is totally incorrect.

Gun Show Background Checks State Laws (http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html)

Known as the "gun show loophole," most states do not require background checks for firearms purchased at gun shows from private individuals -- federal law only requires licensed dealers to conduct checks.

Under the Gun Control Act of 1968, federal law clearly defined private sellers as anyone who sold no more than four firearms per year. But the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act lifted that restriction and loosely defined private sellers as people who do not rely on gun sales as the principal way of obtaining their livelihood.

[Steve9930]

There is no need for citizens to own AR-15 rifles. They are not hunting guns.

Yes, they are used for hunting.

[Steve9930]

Some facts are nice to have: School shootings in the United States - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States)

[Boomer]

I see all the TV media sticky their mics into the faces of kids to parrot the anti gun message. They are so outraged but were was their outrage when they bullied this kid in school. They helped create this monster. Bullying is a common thread to all these monsters. Spare me the indication.

You will never hear this point discussed in our media


You have made an excellent point about bullying in schools. Bullying is as old as cave kids learning to write on cave walls, but that does not excuse it. Bullying in schools has to be worse now as we see more and more hateful people of all ages. I am retired now but when I taught we were required to be standing in our doorways during class-change time and we were on rotation for the dreaded “potty patrol.” The presence of adults in the area of the restrooms and hallways cannot prevent bullying but it can help.

Also, awareness and concern and kind interaction with students who are hurting is something that should come naturally to a teacher but it does not always work that way. We are educated in child and adolescent psych as undergrads but I think more is needed.

“Teaching to the State Test” takes priority now. Teachers have less and less time to create a welcoming, interactive classroom atmosphere where students can get to know each other on a level beyond meeting the sterile standardized test requirements.

And while I am typing away here, I might as well say that I agree with Carl about “hardening the target” with metal detectors and guards at the entry, etc. But I do not agree with arming teachers.

Carl knows security. But I know teachers. The dynamics of schools would change, not for the better. Such an idea would grow arms and legs — all over the place. Would hiring sharpshooters take precedence over educating kids?

I do not think teachers should be armed. (And, btw, I do not think public librarians should have to administer Narcan to heroin addicts who choose public places to shoot up so that they can be rescued. That is happening in some of our cities now.) Such things are not what we dedicated to education types signed on to do.

Meanwhile, I continue to root for those Florida students who are standing up and making their voices heard.

(I cannot figure out why intelligent, law-abiding people cannot see that nobody is going to take their guns. How could that happen? It would be impossible. We are being pitted against each other. Classic Divide and Conquer tactics. And I cannot believe how easy, and fast, that has been to pull off. Where have all the moderates gone?)

[Taltarzac725]

You have made an excellent point about bullying in schools. Bullying is as old ascave kids learning to write on cave walls, but that does not excuse it. Bullying in schools has to be worse now as we see more and more hateful people of all ages. I am retired now but when I taught we were required to be standing in our doorways during class-change time and we were on rotation for the dreaded “potty patrol.” The presence of adults in the area of the restrooms and hallways cannot prevent bullying but it can help.

Also, awareness and concern and kind interaction with students who are hurting is something that should come naturally to a teacher but it does not always work that way. We are educated in child and adolescent psych as undergrads but I think more is needed.

“Teaching to the State Test” takes priority now. Teachers have less and less time to create a welcoming, interactive classroom atmosphere where students can get to know each other on a level beyond meeting the sterile standardized test requirements.

And while I am typing away here, I might as well say that I agree with Carl about “hardening the target” with metal detectors and guards at the entry, etc. But I do not agree with arming teachers.

Carl knows security. But I know teachers. The dynamics of schools would change, not for the better. Such an idea would grow arms and legs — all over the place. Would hiring sharpshooters take precedence over educating kids?

I do not think teachers should be armed. (And, btw, I do not think public librarians should have to administer Narcan to heroin addicts who choose public places to shoot up so that they can be rescued. That is happening in some of our cities now.) Such things are not what we dedicated to education types signed on to do.

Meanwhile, I continue to root for those Florida students who are standing up and making their voices heard.

(I cannot figure out why intelligent, law-abiding people cannot see that nobody is going to take their guns. How could that happen? It would be impossible. We are being pitted against each other. Classic Divide and Conquer tactics. And I cannot believe how easy, and fast, that has been to pull off. Where have all the moderates gone?)

I repeat what I wrote before about a faucet leaking a flooding your house. Would you not use every tool and trick to stop this deluge? Does not matter if the tool is painted blue, white or red.

There is a very serious problem with kids being murdered by other kids. Anything that works should be attempted.

Arming teachers sounds like a bad idea as how can you teach them to take a life which is what would be required of them.

Volunteer ex military maybe but there might be bad eggs among them as well. No solution is going to be perfect. An armed forced of enough men and women could even take the White House like in the War of 1812 to refer to Carl in Tampa's post(s). A plane came close on 9/11 but for the bravery of a group of passengers who brought it down.

I do not remember ever worrying about someone coming into our school with a gun and shooting it up when I was growing up. And Reno, Nevada was full of hunters and gun enthusiasts. I had a pellet gun which was as powerful as a 22 when I was about 10. And soon had some shotguns and 22s by age 14 or so. But I still do not get why anyone would need a weapon that just sprays bullets at a very fast rate of speed.

[Abby10]

You have made an excellent point about bullying in schools. I am retired now but when I taught we were required to be standing in our doorways during class-change time and we were on rotation for the dreaded “potty patrol.” The presence of adults in the area of the restrooms and hallways cannot prevent bullying but it can help. Bullying is as old as cave kids learning to write on cave walls, but that does not excuse it.

Also, awareness and concern and kind interaction with students who are hurting is something that should come naturally to a teacher but it does not always work that way. We are educated in child and adolescent psych as undergrads but I think more is needed.

“Teaching to the State Test” takes priority now. Teachers have less and less time to create a welcoming, interactive classroom atmosphere where students can get to know each other on a level beyond meeting the sterile standardized test requirements.

And while I am typing away here, I might as well say that I agree with Carl about “hardening the target” with metal detectors and guards at the entry, etc. But I do not agree with arming teachers.

Carl knows security. But I know teachers. The dynamics of schools would change, not for the better. Such an idea would grow arms and legs — all over the place. Would hiring sharpshooters take precedence over educating kids?

I do not think teachers should be armed. (And, btw, I do not think public librarians should have to administer Narcan to heroin addicts who choose public places to shoot up so that they can be rescued. That is happening in some of our cities now.) Such things are not what we dedicated to education types signed on to do.

Meanwhile, I continue to root for those Florida students who are standing up and making their voices heard.

(I cannot figure out why intelligent, law-abiding people cannot see that nobody is going to take their guns. How could that happen? It would be impossible. We are being pitted against each other. Classic Divide and Conquer tactics. And I cannot believe how easy, and fast, that has been to pull off. Where have all the moderates gone?)

Thank you as well for sharing your background and experience. Your post reflects someone who is willing to look at this horrible situation from many different angles, knowing the importance in doing so. My concern is those who wish to make this a one issue discussion. If for example certain guns were banned, how long would that process take? We need much more immediate action in order to protect our children. Others on here have already commented on some of the other things we need to look into so I will not belabor the point. Real discussion will open up when people become willing to drop their politics and agendas and open their minds to the possibility that these terrible situations are worthy of more than a one issue discussion. Again, thank you for your post.

[Madelaine Amee]

There is a way out of this mess

GET THE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS

[Madelaine Amee]

(I cannot figure out why intelligent, law-abiding people cannot see that nobody is going to take their guns. How could that happen? It would be impossible. We are being pitted against each other. Classic Divide and Conquer tactics. And I cannot believe how easy, and fast, that has been to pull off. Where have all the moderates gone?)

We are still out here trying to get our voices heard, but these are very difficult times for moderates; however, November is just around the corner and we still have the ballot box!

[fw102807]

There is a way out of this mess

GET THE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS

This is never going to happen just as gun control is never going to happen. That does not mean however that nothing can happen. If they need to tighten security at all of the schools, as Carl suggests, then that is what they need to do. They have done it at all of the Federal buildings and they can do it in the schools. They also need to find a way to get help to these kids who are potential killers without the ACLU jumping all over them for rights violations.

[Abby10]

This is never going to happen just as gun control is never going to happen. That does not mean however that nothing can happen. If they need to tighten security at all of the schools, as Carl suggests, then that is what they need to do. They have done it at all of the Federal buildings and they can do it in the schools. They also need to find a way to get help to these kids who are potential killers without the ACLU jumping all over them for rights violations.

I agree. We definitely need to look at the gun situation as well from the perspective of proper enforcement of the laws on the books as well as where we may be able to tighten up on background checks. But the more people (esp our elected officials) we can get to look at this situation from all angles as you are, the more likely something will get done. Using an issue to divide will not accomplish a thing - we've already been there, done that, with absolutely no success.

[ColdNoMore]

This is never going to happen just as gun control is never going to happen. That does not mean however that nothing can happen. If they need to tighten security at all of the schools, as Carl suggests, then that is what they need to do. They have done it at all of the Federal buildings and they can do it in the schools. They also need to find a way to get help to these kids who are potential killers without the ACLU jumping all over them for rights violations.

One only has to look at how the issue of outlawing bump-stocks after Las Vegas, has been shoved in the closet with the hope that it would be forgotten...to prove your statement correct. :ohdear:

[Taltarzac725]

One only has to look at how the issue of outlawing bump-stocks after Las Vegas, has been shoved in the closet with the hope that it would be forgotten...to prove your statement correct. :ohdear:

That is definitely they need to do something about along with magazine capacity.

The voices of the people most affected by these school shootings- students, teachers, school administrators-- MIGHT really bring about change. Especially if the people who do not listen and more importantly do not ACT, are voted out of office.

[billethkid]

The NRA is nothing more than a microcosim of the political driven mechanism, quid quo pros, you don't go after mine and I wont' go after your benefactor's benefits, establishment handicapped, do not upset the status quo elected officials at local, state and federal levels.

What gets lost in the myriad of the powerful beholding few is the benefit of the many....WE THE PEOPLE!!!

The NRA is another special interest group, one of the many, like minority and any other so called rights protectors that directly influence any issues of significance outcomes.

The real as well as the political needs/aspects of the gun related issues will not change until the establishment changes the priorities from the few to the many. The majority has become emasculated, tolerant and unheard.

[Abby10]

The NRA is nothing more than a microcosim of the political driven mechanism, quid quo pros, you don't go after mine and I wont' go after your benefactor's benefits, establishment handicapped, do not upset the status quo elected officials at local, state and federal levels.

What gets lost in the myriad of the powerful beholding few is the benefit of the many....WE THE PEOPLE!!!

The NRA is another special interest group, one of the many, like minority and any other so called rights protectors that directly influence any issues of significance outcomes.

The real as well as the political needs/aspects of the gun related issues will not change until the establishment changes the priorities from the few to the many. The majority has become emasculated, tolerant and unheard.

Excellent! I think more of us are on the same side of this issue than it seems. If only we would drop the politics and the one issue agendas it would become so much more apparent that, ultimately, we all want the same thing where this issue is concerned.

[justjim]

It seems the majority is now the so called “silent majority”. Perhaps the younger generation will make a difference.

[billethkid]

It seems the majority is now the so called “silent majority”. Perhaps the younger generation will make a difference.

They will. And it will be very different from what most of us would support.

[Kenswing]

That is definitely they need to do something about along with magazine capacity.

The voices of the people most affected by these school shootings- students, teachers, school administrators-- MIGHT really bring about change. Especially if the people who do not listen and more importantly do not ACT, are voted out of office.What do you base this on, experience or what you read? Because Carl and I, who both have extensive firearms experience have already explained why magazine capacity would matter very little if any.

[graciegirl]

This is never going to happen just as gun control is never going to happen. That does not mean however that nothing can happen. If they need to tighten security at all of the schools, as Carl suggests, then that is what they need to do. They have done it at all of the Federal buildings and they can do it in the schools. They also need to find a way to get help to these kids who are potential killers without the ACLU jumping all over them for rights violations.

I agree.

[GoodLife]

Lots of people seem to think new gun laws, new mental health laws are needed. As I stated many pages back, there is already a Florida State law that makes any type of school shooting threat a Felony. FBI were tipped twice, once to a youtube post by Cruz saying he wanted to be a professional school shooter. 2nd tip from a friend who said Cruz had guns, was threatening school shootings etc. They did not follow up on 2nd tip at all.

Broward Sheriffs were called to Cruz's home 36 times. Never found a reason to dig deeper. Mental Health professionals were called to investigate Cruz.

Why we need more laws if they can't enforce the ones we already have. I agree with Carl, only solution with any chance of success is harden the target. If they decide to do this you can expect a substantial increase in your property/school taxes as it will be very expensive.

I leave you with the following quote, try and guess who made it.

"This kid exhibited every single known red flag, from killing animals to having a cache of weapons to disruptive behavior to saying he wanted to be a school shooter. If this isn’t a person who should have gotten someone’s attention, I don’t know who is. This was a multi-system failure."

Howard Finkelstein, the Broward County public defender whose office is representing Nikolas Cruz, the suspect in the mass shooting in Parkland, Fla

[jebartle]

An "AR-15 style" rifle is not an automatic weapon. Automatic weapons, with a few exceptions such as for collectors with a Federal permit, are illegal in the US. This is a common misconception by those with little knowledge of firearms and sometimes propagated by the media. An AR-15, as with the majority of firearms including handguns and rifles as well as many shotguns, is semi-automatic.

You seem to be an authority on guns, do AR-15s require special bullets or magazines, maybe that is where we should start with BANS.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING should also be the best option until laws are updated. Let's face it, give all of us innocent people a chance to defend ourselves. When even bump-stocks have not been banned because the NRA owns our congress, it's time for our state reps and senators to REALLY represent us!!! Is this even possible before we bury some more children. The world is watching and so are our kids. Wake up America!

[Kenswing]

You seem to be an authority on guns, do AR-15s require special bullets or magazines, maybe that is where we should start with BANS.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING should also be the best option until laws are updated. Let's face it, give all of us innocent people a chance to defend ourselves. When even bump-stocks have not been banned because the NRA owns our congress, it's time for our state reps and senators to REALLY represent us!!! Is this even possible before we bury some more children. The world is watching and so are our kids. Wake up America!
Far more people die from the affects of obesity. Should we ban the knife and fork because they make people fat?

[biker1]

I am hardly an authority on firearms. The real expert is "Carl in Tampa". Please see his post #243 for his expert appraisal of the situation.

You seem to be an authority on guns, do AR-15s require special bullets or magazines, maybe that is where we should start with BANS.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING should also be the best option until laws are updated. Let's face it, give all of us innocent people a chance to defend ourselves. When even bump-stocks have not been banned because the NRA owns our congress, it's time for our state reps and senators to REALLY represent us!!! Is this even possible before we bury some more children. The world is watching and so are our kids. Wake up America!

[fw102807]

I leave you with the following quote, try and guess who made it.

"This kid exhibited every single known red flag, from killing animals to having a cache of weapons to disruptive behavior to saying he wanted to be a school shooter. If this isn’t a person who should have gotten someone’s attention, I don’t know who is. This was a multi-system failure."

Howard Finkelstein, the Broward County public defender whose office is representing Nikolas Cruz, the suspect in the mass shooting in Parkland, Fla

But does anyone know what the protocol would have been to deal with this kid. There are only a few states that have "red flag laws" allowing the court to take away guns from suspected mentally disturbed individuals and Florida is not one of them. What legally could they do that they did not?

[Kenswing]

You seem to be an authority on guns, do AR-15s require special bullets or magazines, maybe that is where we should start with BANS.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING should also be the best option until laws are updated. Let's face it, give all of us innocent people a chance to defend ourselves. When even bump-stocks have not been banned because the NRA owns our congress, it's time for our state reps and senators to REALLY represent us!!! Is this even possible before we bury some more children. The world is watching and so are our kids. Wake up America!
An AR-15 only requires a magazine that will fit. There are probably tens of millions of them in circulation. The most commonly used ammo is 5.56mm or .223. Which are basically the same thing. Thousands of rifles fire that round, not just AR's. But an AR can be chambered for many different calibers. Eliminating just one will do you no good.

[GoodLife]

But does anyone know what the protocol would have been to deal with this kid. There are only a few states that have "red flag laws" allowing the court to take away guns from suspected mentally disturbed individuals and Florida is not one of them. What legally could they do that they did not?

Are you reading my whole post? Florida has a law, enacted in 2016, that makes it a Felony to make school shooting threats. Cruz did this verbally and online. If FBI had actually responded to the 2nd tip from someone who knew him, knew he had guns, threatened school shooting etc they or local LEOs could have gone and arrested him for a felony. He made these threats on youtube, Instagram, to actual people, students etc. He had 7-10 rifles. He committed a felony when he made the school shooting threats.

School shooting threats now a felony

School shooting threats now a felony (http://lakerlutznews.com/lln/?p=39737)

[fw102807]

Are you reading my whole post? Florida has a law, enacted in 2016, that makes it a Felony to make school shooting threats. Cruz did this verbally and online. If FBI had actually responded to the 2nd tip from someone who knew him, knew he had guns, threatened school shooting etc they or local LEOs could have gone and arrested him for a felony. He made these threats on youtube, Instagram, to actual people, students etc. He had 7-10 rifles. He committed a felony when he made the school shooting threats.

School shooting threats now a felony

School shooting threats now a felony (http://lakerlutznews.com/lln/?p=39737)

Sorry, I did miss that information. It is getting to be such a long thread.

[GoodLife]

Sorry, I did miss that information. It is getting to be such a long thread.

No problem, here is an internet search listing hundreds of arrests made, nationwide, for school shooting THREATS for any who think it's impossible.

arrests made for school shooting threats - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=arrests+made+for+school+shooting+threats&form=EDGEAR&qs=PF&cvid=5e0f5fa4f9da4973b5ca979e600a495b&cc=US&setlang=en-US)

[GoodLife]

and looky here, lots of arrests all over the country in just the last few days, merely for making a threat to shoot up a school.. Doesn't mention any new laws that enabled these arrests. I guess they don't need new laws to do this.

Police made arrests in multiple communities across the country over threats of school shootings in the wake of the tragedy in Parkland, Florida last week.

Police in Wisconsin arrested a 17-year-old after he made statements about planning a shooting at Columbus High School, outside Madison. The student was arrested at his job in Columbus on Friday and jailed on charges of making terroristic threats, according to WMTV in Wisconsin.

The student made comments about planning to cause more casualties than the shooting in Parkland, which took place Feb. 14. Seventeen people died in the that incident.

The student was arrested after several people reported his comments to the district, WMTV said.
"The swift actions by students at the high school to report information to the administration was pivotal in the quick resolution," Columbus Superintendent Annette Deuman wrote in an email to parents, according to WMTV. "We thank them and are proud of them for reporting the information immediately."

In a separate incident, a man was arrested in Appleton, Wisconsin, outside Green Bay, for allegedly sending the FBI a message stating he planned to "shoot up the school," according to NBC 26.

Six people in different parts of Kentucky were arrested over the weekend for allegedly threatening schools in three different counties, according to the Lexington Herald Leader.
Two teens were charged with make terroristic threats after allegedly using the image of an uninvolved third person to make a threat on social media against schools in Jessamine County, outside Lexington.

A middle school student was taken into custody in Clay County after posting a threat on Facebook and three people were arrested in Knox County after also making threats on social media, the Herald leader said.

One of the incidents involved a photo of a boy with a handgun and text that read "Be ready for school monday in Jessamine County." Police determined the boy in the photo was not actually involved in making the threat.

Authorities in New York dealt with numerous threats after the Florida shooting last week as well.

Police make arrests in Wisconsin, Kentucky after school shooting threats | syracuse.com (http://www.syracuse.com/us-news/index.ssf/2018/02/school_shooting_threats_kentucky_wisconsin.html)

[fw102807]

No problem, here is an internet search listing hundreds of arrests made, nationwide, for school shooting THREATS for any who think it's impossible.

arrests made for school shooting threats - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=arrests+made+for+school+shooting+threats&form=EDGEAR&qs=PF&cvid=5e0f5fa4f9da4973b5ca979e600a495b&cc=US&setlang=en-US)

This sounds like a very good start.

[billethkid]

You seem to be an authority on guns, do AR-15s require special bullets or magazines, maybe that is where we should start with BANS.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING should also be the best option until laws are updated. Let's face it, give all of us innocent people a chance to defend ourselves. When even bump-stocks have not been banned because the NRA owns our congress, it's time for our state reps and senators to REALLY represent us!!! Is this even possible before we bury some more children. The world is watching and so are our kids. Wake up America!

The NRA is a convenient target.
The problem is congress and the circle the congress.
A responsible/accountable to we the people congress would not be affected by the NRA .............which happens to be just one special interest/lobbyist/minority groups.

[GoodLife]

IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING should also be the best option until laws are updated.

In this case, there is no need for any laws to be updated. The shooter, Nicholas Cruz, committed a Felony in Florida when he made school shooting threats. Numerous people SAW SOMETHING, AND SAID SOMETHING. FBI and local sheriffs took a coffee break and then DID NOTHING.

[jj6426]

Can someone explain to me how our politicians are indebted to the NRA? I'm not sure I understand it---only that these politicians will not criticize the NRA even if they secretly believe that the gun laws are not effective. Is it just the money? Is it because the NRA subsidizes certain candidates and their parties?

[fw102807]

IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING should also be the best option until laws are updated.

In this case, there is no need for any laws to be updated. The shooter, Nicholas Cruz, committed a Felony in Florida when he made school shooting threats. Numerous people SAW SOMETHING, AND SAID SOMETHING. FBI and local sheriffs took a coffee break and then DID NOTHING.

But this needs to be national, not just in certain states

[dadspet]

The students are on the right path with marches and #gunreformnow. The students must become the moving force for gun control since adults don't seem to think its important and the government refuses to take any meaningful action. The killing of innocent people with weapons of war has become all too normal in our society and its time for people to demand reform from their elected officials. The common shootings are crazy and changing our society. It really hard for me to believe there are people can actually think no gun reform is needed. Would they think the same if it was their child or loved one shot?

[Carl in Tampa]

You seem to be an authority on guns, do AR-15s require special bullets or magazines, maybe that is where we should start with BANS.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING should also be the best option until laws are updated. Let's face it, give all of us innocent people a chance to defend ourselves. When even bump-stocks have not been banned because the NRA owns our congress, it's time for our state reps and senators to REALLY represent us!!! Is this even possible before we bury some more children. The world is watching and so are our kids. Wake up America!

Wrong, Wrong, WRONG.

Bump stocks were ruled legal by Obama's ATF.

Here is part of the NRA position on bump stocks: "The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations."

You can find the statement on the NRA web site.

As I said earlier, no gun ban can eliminate all deadly weapons. The real answer is to harden the target; entry control, multiple armed security personnel.

[Wiotte]

All this reminds me of our perception of driving drunk prior to MADD grass roots pioneers becoming a serious political movement who literally changed how Americans and law enforcement viewed DWI. It will take the same impetus to change our view of firearms designed to kill people, not game animals. Mess with affluent people as was the case with the recent mass shooting and this may be the tipping point that will put our country on par with other 1st world countries. I can only hope.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Carl in Tampa]

Can someone explain to me how our politicians are indebted to the NRA? I'm not sure I understand it---only that these politicians will not criticize the NRA even if they secretly believe that the gun laws are not effective. Is it just the money? Is it because the NRA subsidizes certain candidates and their parties?

The NRA has a political action arm, the Institute for Legislative Action. It engages in campaigning for Second Amendment issues. It contributes to the campaign chests of legislative candidates who are pro-Second Amendment.

This operates identically with hundreds of other special interest groups who target their contributions toward candidates with whom they agree.

You will find many hunters and police officers are members of the NRA. For decades the NRA has offered hunter safety courses; police marksmanship courses; and gun safety at home courses.

On your other subject, there is no conceivable gun law that could be written that would prevent people from acquiring guns and using them to kill people. Not even an outright ban on all firearms. There are many millions of firearms and rounds of ammunition in circulation in the United States. Banning them would just create a Black Market. (Remember how Prohibition worked?)

We must "harden the targets." Have controlled access at schools; use metal detectors; have many armed security personnel. Israel made this system work. We can too.

[ColdNoMore]

A must read for those interested in facts...and the history of the NRA.

National Rifle Association'''s Change on Gun Control in 1970s | Time (http://time.com/4431356/nra-gun-control-history/)

The NRA’s opposition to gun control, however, is only a few decades , according to Adam Winkler author of the book Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America. “Historically,” writes Winkler, “the leadership of the NRA was more open-minded about gun control than someone familiar with the modern NRA might imagine.”

Not only did the NRA support gun control for much of the 20th century, its leadership in fact lobbied for and co-authored gun control legislation.


Another one.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/10/05/the-forgotten-nra-leader-who-despised-the-promiscuous-toting-of-guns/?utm_term=.6e5869b2e11b

The testimony of one man — now all but forgotten — stood out.

“I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons,” said Karl T. Frederick, according to a transcript of the hearings. “I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.”

Frederick’s words were notable then, and especially now, because of who he was: the president of the National Rifle Association.

Today, in the wake of yet another horrific mass shooting, this time Parkland, Fla., it’s difficult to find any reference to Frederick on the NRA’s website, and it would be impossible to locate anyone connected with the organization who would say anything close to what Frederick did in confronting a crisis.

[DeanFL]

I, for one, am proud of these 'kids' who are standing up and voicing re this horrible issue.

This is the Millennial generation who....
- samples Tide pods
- is self-absorbed narcissism and sheltered
- has social media a huge part of life
- expects silver-platter entitilement
- is the "I" generation
- shows grammar is not important

perhaps a short list... and on and on....

BUT- THEY will be a HUGE voter group very soon, and our elected officials will take notice.

From what I have heard -on news and such- these 'kids' are idealistic but hopefully will grow in numbers to impact some positive change on this huge national issue. I may not agree with all their demands etc, but good for them to be out there. I sure respect that.

[Taltarzac725]

kare11.com | Student's invention protects his school (http://www.kare11.com/article/news/students-invention-protects-his-school/520840852)

This is a useful invention by a kid who came up with something that might lower the number of people hurt or killed in these shootings.

[fw102807]

I, for one, am proud of these 'kids' who are standing up and voicing re this horrible issue.

This is the Millennial generation who....
- samples Tide pods
- is self-absorbed narcissism and sheltered
- has social media a huge part of life
- expects silver-platter entitilement
- is the "I" generation
- shows grammar is not important

perhaps a short list... and on and on....

BUT- THEY will be a HUGE voter group very soon, and our elected officials will take notice.

From what I have heard -on news and such- these 'kids' are idealistic but hopefully will grow in numbers to impact some positive change on this huge national issue. I may not agree with all their demands etc, but good for them to be out there. I sure respect that.

I think it is unfair to generalize all kids. We did some pretty stupid things in our youth also but the difference is now everything is online for the world to see and judge. I really pity these kids.

[DeanFL]

I think it is unfair to generalize all kids. We did some pretty stupid things in our youth also but the difference is now everything is online for the world to see and judge. I really pity these kids.



Perhaps unfair....but groups of people are ALWAYS generalized - fair or not. We, as a group of TVrs are generalized as well, as are Floridians, Muslims, Gen Xrs, and on and on. I simply stated my opinion of factors this group seems to be associated with in many publications et al.

I don't necessarily pity them, but as mentioned before, support them and their general cause with this issue.

[cologal]

I heard today the Florida Legislature, with the Parkland students in attendance, refused to discuss a ban on Assault weapons but later in the day, debated a bill that declares porn a public health risk.

Just reporting not commenting!

[Taltarzac725]

I heard today the Florida Legislature, with the Parkland students in attendance, refused to discuss a ban on Assault weapons but later in the day, debated a bill that declares porn a public health risk.

Just reporting not commenting!

Well porn kills. ;)

[8notes]

I, for one, am proud of these 'kids' who are standing up and voicing re this horrible issue.

This is the Millennial generation who....
- samples Tide pods
- is self-absorbed narcissism and sheltered
- has social media a huge part of life
- expects silver-platter entitilement
- is the "I" generation
- shows grammar is not important

perhaps a short list... and on and on....

BUT- THEY will be a HUGE voter group very soon, and our elected officials will take notice.

From what I have heard -on news and such- these 'kids' are idealistic but hopefully will grow in numbers to impact some positive change on this huge national issue. I may not agree with all their demands etc, but good for them to be out there. I sure respect that.


Me too. Our generation had tremendous power when we resisted the Viet Nam war. Hopefully these kids will be able to have influence on important issues of our times.

[8notes]

Posted only for context.....you obviously read it and that is great....so you know it is not simply "Bump stocks were ruled legal by Obama's ATF." which is misleading about the policy and actual happenings.

Just for context because deciding it could not do something legally was left out of the original post

Thanks for clarifying. Cleary there were limits to what could be accomplished under the previous administration, when they had to deal with an obstructionist congress.

[cologal]

Well porn kills. ;)

Love it!!! Your post not the other!

[Fredster]

A must read for those interested in facts...and the history of the NRA.

National Rifle Association'''s Change on Gun Control in 1970s | Time (http://time.com/4431356/nra-gun-control-history/)




Another one.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/10/05/the-forgotten-nra-leader-who-despised-the-promiscuous-toting-of-guns/?utm_term=.6e5869b2e11b

I do believe the NRA’s defense of second ammendment rights is relatively recent!
Since it coincides with the attack on those rights by
the political left!

[Taltarzac725]

These students sounded very determined today on FOX. I wish them the best in their efforts to get things done.

[graciegirl]

These students sounded very determined today on FOX. I wish them the best in their efforts to get things done.

If there was not one gun in this country, mad men would and could and will wreak havoc and death. Criminals would still rob and rape. It is because people are not being raised with a moral compass like we were.

When I was too young to remember it was drilled into me that THOU SHALT NOT KILL. What we should march against is illegal drugs. Oh. We already have laws against them.

[Wiotte]

If there was not one gun in this country, mad men would and could and will wreak havoc and death. Criminals would still rob and rape. It is because people are not being raised with a moral compass like we were.



When I was too young to remember it was drilled into me that THOU SHALT NOT KILL. What we should march against is illegal drugs. Oh. We already have laws against them.



Nope
Gun Control in Australia, Updated - FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Doro22]

If there was not one gun in this country, mad men would and could and will wreak havoc and death. Criminals would still rob and rape. It is because people are not being raised with a moral compass like we were.

When I was too young to remember it was drilled into me that THOU SHALT NOT KILL. What we should march against is illegal drugs. Oh. We already have laws against them.

Gracie Girl - you are the voice of reason. Thank you! I fully agree.

[Kenswing]

And around and around we go.....

[GoodLife]

FBI: US Homicide Rate at 51-Year Low

FBI: US Homicide Rate at 51-Year Low | Mises Wire (https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low)

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware | Pew Research Center (http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/#what-is-behind-the-crime-decline)

[ColdNoMore]

If there was not one gun in this country, mad men would and could and will wreak havoc and death. Criminals would still rob and rape. It is because people are not being raised with a moral compass like we were.

When I was too young to remember it was drilled into me that THOU SHALT NOT KILL. What we should march against is illegal drugs. Oh. We already have laws against them.

If that compass was so effective, why was there a need for... civil rights laws, laws against domestic abuse, environmental laws, etc., etc., etc?

Just saying. :shrug:

[Carl in Tampa]

I heard today the Florida Legislature, with the Parkland students in attendance, refused to discuss a ban on Assault weapons but later in the day, debated a bill that declares porn a public health risk.

Just reporting not commenting!

The legislature did not refuse to discuss a ban. Such a bill was being considered by three committees. The legislature declined to rush to a vote on the bill without hearing from the committees.

There are only two and a half weeks left in the legislative session, so it is unlikely that anything will be done in this session.

[8notes]

Originally Posted by graciegirl:
If there was not one gun in this country, mad men would and could and will wreak havoc and death. Criminals would still rob and rape. It is because people are not being raised with a moral compass like we were.

If that compass was so effective, why was there a need for... civil rights laws, laws against domestic abuse, environmental laws, etc., etc., etc?

Just saying. :shrug:

Thank you ColdNoMore - the voice of reason.

[8notes]

Posted by Graciegirl: If there was not one gun in this country, mad men would and could and will wreak havoc and death. Criminals would still rob and rape.

Nope
Gun Control in Australia, Updated - FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/)


Thanks for the link. I hope people take the time to read it. In a nutshell, after Australia updated their gun control laws, there was a marked decrease in gun related homicides.

[rustyp]

Originally Posted by graciegirl:
If there was not one gun in this country, mad men would and could and will wreak havoc and death. Criminals would still rob and rape. It is because people are not being raised with a moral compass like we were.



Thank you ColdNoMore - the voice of reason.

Which generation forgot to pass the compass along ?

[fw102807]

This has been going on since Cain and Abel it's just more visible now that it is on every form of media.

[Taltarzac725]

This has been going on since Cain and Abel it's just more visible now that it is on every form of media.

Cain had a rock. If Abel had a gun who would have won in that fight? Think what would have happened if the Minute Men at Concord had assault rifles rather than muskets, axes and knives?

[fw102807]

Cain had a rock. If Abel had a gun who would have won in that fight? Think what would have happened if the Minute Men at Concord had assault rifles rather than muskets, axes and knives?

People still died. People who have a moral compass do not create wars and concentration camps. I am not a proponent of guns just saying this generation did not start it. I know many fine kids who are doing good things and hate to see them painted under a brushstroke of being morally lacking. My church back home was filled with them.

[Taltarzac725]

People still died. People who have a moral compass do not create wars and concentration camps. I am not a proponent of guns just saying this generation did not start it. I know many fine kids who are doing good things and hate to see them painted under a brushstroke of being morally lacking. My church back home was filled with them.

These kids seem to be showing us their moral compass. I approve of guns someone would normally use for hunting and home protection. Assault rifles do not fit that description unless you are trying to put 20 holes into an intruder. Anything can be used as a weapon to kill like that jawbone of an ass from The Bible. Or spears, swords, arrows, axes, and knives from The Iliad . Or pillows from many murder investigations' results.

[Kenswing]

These kids seem to be showing us their moral compass. I approve of guns someone would normally use for hunting and home protection. Assault rifles do not fit that description unless you are trying to put 20 holes into an intruder. Anything can be used as a weapon to kill like that jawbone of an ass from The Bible. Or spears, swords, arrows, axes, and knives from The Iliad . Or pillows from many murder investigations' results.
Tal, you're big on research. Why don't you look up how many people are actually killed with "Assault Rifles". While you're at it also look up the percentage of people killed with handguns vs rifles. Might also look at how many people commit suicide with a gun vs people killed by homicide.

I have pistols that will hold 18 rounds with factory magazines. In less than a second I can insert another 17 round magazine. Magazine size has little affect in the real world.

The shooter at Virginia Tech killed 32 people with handguns. Where's the push to ban .22 caliber Walther pistols or 9mm Glocks?

Bullets kill people. The gun doesn't. You keep wanting to blame an object on the crimes of a human.

[billethkid]

What is clearly needed is for people to become educated before launching into any dissertation or discussion regarding weapon type and capability.

AR does not = assault rifle.
For the benefit of those who do not know what an AR 15 is or is not:

‘AR’ Stands for ArmaLite • NSSF (https://www.nssf.org/ar-stands-for-armalite/)

It is unfortunate that there seems to be an overwhelming lack of understanding that does not seem to impede anti gunner discussions and most of the media.....hence creating or adding to already existing confusion.

It is clearly demonstrated daily in all aspects of the media and public opinion that understanding and knowing are not requirements.

[Jdmiata]

Why is our country the only one in the world with this problem ?

[Fredster]

What is clearly needed is for people to become educated before launching into any dissertation or discussion regarding weapon type and capability.

AR does not = assault rifle.
For the benefit of those who do not know what an AR 15 is or is not:

‘AR’ Stands for ArmaLite • NSSF (https://www.nssf.org/ar-stands-for-armalite/)

It is unfortunate that there seems to be an overwhelming lack of understanding that does not seem to impede anti gunner discussions and most of the media.....hence creating or adding to already existing confusion.

It is clearly demonstrated daily in all aspects of the media and public opinion that understanding and knowing are not requirements.
:agree:

[graciegirl]

These kids seem to be showing us their moral compass. I approve of guns someone would normally use for hunting and home protection. Assault rifles do not fit that description unless you are trying to put 20 holes into an intruder. Anything can be used as a weapon to kill like that jawbone of an ass from The Bible. Or spears, swords, arrows, axes, and knives from The Iliad . Or pillows from many murder investigations' results.

There is good reason why the President of the United States has to be at least 35 years old.

I also don't listen carefully to anyone who hasn't held a job for ten years or hasn't gone without sleep for three months with an infant. I am resistant to take counsel from anyone who hasn't paid income tax for a decade too. I prejudge people. It helps me also if they have owned Real Estate for awhile. Or been married.. Yes. I am very narrow minded.

[graciegirl]

If there were no guns anywhere in the U.S. Madmen would still wreak havoc and try to cause death.

This morning at a hospital in Connecticut;



Driver crashes car into Connecticut hospital, sets himself on fire, officials say | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/22/car-crashes-into-connecticut-hospital-catches-fire.html)

[My Post]

Wow. That is just insanity. People are just thinking of the craziest things to do. Very sad.

[Abby10]

What is clearly needed is for people to become educated before launching into any dissertation or discussion regarding weapon type and capability.

AR does not = assault rifle.
For the benefit of those who do not know what an AR 15 is or is not:

‘AR’ Stands for ArmaLite • NSSF (https://www.nssf.org/ar-stands-for-armalite/)

It is unfortunate that there seems to be an overwhelming lack of understanding that does not seem to impede anti gunner discussions and most of the media.....hence creating or adding to already existing confusion.

It is clearly demonstrated daily in all aspects of the media and public opinion that understanding and knowing are not requirements.

Good, easy to understand information in the link you provided. Hopefully those who don't understand what an AR-15 is will take the few minutes to read it. Unfortunately, there are always those who, because it does not suit their agenda, will ignore information like this and continue with their falsehoods.

[GoodLife]

A Florida sheriff says the deputy who was on duty at a high school where 17 people were massacred waited outside the building for about four minutes without ever going in.

Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel announced during a Thursday news conference that Deputy Scot Peterson resigned after being suspended without pay.

Israel said he made the decision after reviewing video surveillance and interviewing witnesses, including the deputy himself. The sheriff says Peterson responded to the building where the shooting took place, took up a position outside a door and never went in.

When asked what Peterson should have done, Israel said the deputy should have "went in, addressed the killer, killed the killer."

Sheriff: Deputy never entered school in Florida shooting (http://www.wndu.com/content/news/Sheriff-Deputy-never-entered-school-in-Florida-shooting-474892763.html)

This why people buy guns, FBI doesn't follow tips and this armed Deputy waited outside while kids got massacred.

[Kenswing]

A Florida sheriff says the deputy who was on duty at a high school where 17 people were massacred waited outside the building for about four minutes without ever going in.

Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel announced during a Thursday news conference that Deputy Scot Peterson resigned after being suspended without pay.

Israel said he made the decision after reviewing video surveillance and interviewing witnesses, including the deputy himself. The sheriff says Peterson responded to the building where the shooting took place, took up a position outside a door and never went in.

When asked what Peterson should have done, Israel said the deputy should have "went in, addressed the killer, killed the killer."

Sheriff: Deputy never entered school in Florida shooting (http://www.wndu.com/content/news/Sheriff-Deputy-never-entered-school-in-Florida-shooting-474892763.html)

This why people buy guns, FBI doesn't follow tips and this armed Deputy waited outside while kids got massacred.

When seconds count the police are only minutes away..

I bet 99 out of a hundred cops would have gone in. Unfortunately those kids got the one that wouldn't.

[Panthers]

There is good reason why the President of the United States has to be at least 35 years old.

I also don't listen carefully to anyone who hasn't held a job for ten years or hasn't gone without sleep for three months with an infant. I am resistant to take counsel from anyone who hasn't paid income tax for a decade too. I prejudge people. It helps me also if they have owned Real Estate for awhile. Or been married.. Yes. I am very narrow minded.Words to live by.

[Taltarzac725]

CBS News tonight had an interesting story on gun carrying by teachers in rural areas of Colorado. That actually makes some sense as it would take a while for any cops to get to them. Just hate when people paint with very broad brushes. This teacher shown does not carry an assault rifle but a pistol in his boot.

[GoodLife]

FBI did nothing (ignored tip naming shooter)
Broward Sheriffs did nothing (called to shooters home 39 times, armed Deputy fails to engage)
Mental Health pros did nothing (investigated shooter)

Solution: Blame the NRA and "assault rifles"

[billethkid]

They say if one repeats something more than 35 times they will not forget it.

The weapon(s) used were not ASSAULT RIFLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wiotte]

I enjoy my Winchester 30-30. It will take down anything in North
America plus it’s beautiful to look at, shoot and hold.
An AK ? Nah. I don’t get it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kenswing]

They say if one repeats something more than 35 times they will not forget it.

The weapon(s) used were not ASSAULT RIFLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!We know that.. That's why we used "quotes"

[JRichm369]

I do agree with good life, the FBI had warnings, The sheriff's office had warnings, and no action was taken. We can pressure the politicians to pass laws against AR-15s We can pass laws gun free zones we can outlaw anything, but the people that conduct these atrocities do not care about laws. When they do their thing they have violated a multitude of laws, they do not worry about being arrested being executed or going to prison having killed anyone or being killed. New laws will not fix anything. We have a political, media environment that encourages hate and dissent. Many years ago I was told never discuss politics or RELIGION, until we can allow people to support their own views we will have big problems. In the words of Randolph Hurst more people will listen to an argument than to an intelligent discussion.

[GoodLife]

Shooter could have faced charges before massacre — had cops done their job, experts say

February 23, 2018 06:42 PM
Updated February 24, 2018 12:20 AM

Nikolas Cruz threatened classmates, posted photos of himself holding guns, made violent statements online and was repeatedly described to authorities as a potential “school shooter.”

His troubling behavior gave law enforcement plenty of opportunities to investigate and arrest him — and even take away his guns — long before he shot up Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland last week, according to interviews with former South Florida prosecutors and legal experts.

In recent years, South Florida police detectives have arrested a slew of young men in unrelated cases who exhibited similar, troubling behavior on a variety of charges. Cops took them seriously.

Read more here: Law enforcement missed chances to arrest Parkland shooter | Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201887629.html#storylink=cpy)

[Chi-Town]

It turns out that three other sheriff's deputies failed to enter the building during the active shooting incident. They stood behind their squad cars with guns drawn. There should be hell to pay.

Additional deputies did not enter Florida high school during shooting: report | TheHill (http://thehill.com/homenews/news/375392-officers-from-second-fla-police-department-found-four-deputies-hadnt-entered)

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[GoodLife]

It turns out that three other sheriff's deputies failed to enter the building during the active shooting incident. They stood behind their squad cars with guns drawn. There should be hell to pay.

Additional deputies did not enter Florida high school during shooting: report | TheHill (http://thehill.com/homenews/news/375392-officers-from-second-fla-police-department-found-four-deputies-hadnt-entered)

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Yes and Broward County Sheriff Israel knew all this before he went on live CNN school shooting extravaganza in which he proceeded to blame guns and the NRA and begged for more laws. Pathetic CYA

[ColdNoMore]

It turns out that three other sheriff's deputies failed to enter the building during the active shooting incident. They stood behind their squad cars with guns drawn. There should be hell to pay.

Additional deputies did not enter Florida high school during shooting: report | TheHill (http://thehill.com/homenews/news/375392-officers-from-second-fla-police-department-found-four-deputies-hadnt-entered)


But I'm sure an English teacher with a concealed carry permit...would have "killed the killer." :oops:

Arming teachers in the classroom has to be, IMHO...one of the most idiotic ideas I've ever heard. :ohdear:

Besides the obvious problems of protecting the weapon in the classroom and how even trained LEO's only have about 18% accuracy in a live shooter incident, a post earlier here (from a retired teacher) about whether or not educators will now be hired based on their gun range proficiency...made a point that I hadn't considered.

An all too large swath of 2nd Amendment extremists, have this Walter Mitty notion of one day being 'a hero'...and saving the day.

Not that there are very many that will actually admit to having this fantasy of course.

As shown by what happened with trained professionals being reluctant, the idea of amateurs acting differently...is silly and wishful (hopeful?) thinking.

There are a number of things that I believe can & should be done to stop these mass murders (complete background checks on ALL sales/more thorough followup by agencies on reported individuals/raising age to purchase semi-autos/bump stock ban/???).

But maybe the single most important thing that needs to be done, is to counsel & educate those who are so easily scared when organizations screech that ANY reasonable regulations...are nothing more than an attempt to confiscate all of our guns.

I have yet to read where ANY legitimate or substantive organization/lawmaker/political faction...is advocating a wholesale ban and/or confiscation of firearms.

I mean really, why are some people so easily frightened and so gullible about something that isn't even being seriously proposed...or is going to ever happen? :confused:

[Steve9930]

Man there are many posts, I'll throw in a few more:
To those who propose gun control please do some research and gain some knowledge of firearm Technology.
Harden the target, harden the target, one more time, Harden the target.
Bump stocks belong on the class 3 weapon list(My opinion), if you do not know what that is go back to my first comment. I might even put the AR-15 in the same class.
Mr. Left quit using words like ban, or ban all semi-autos, and legislation that lists over 300 rifles makes the right nervous.
Mr. Right, the government is not coming to take your guns.
You can arm teachers, Its already being done in some places. No one said it would be you. There are people that can do both, teach and use a firearm. Don't just say it can't be done. With the right individual it will work.

1966, Texas University, Austin, TX, 14 Dead, 34 wounded, Weapon: Bolt Action Hunting Rifle. The nut jobs always find away.


In my opinion the reason the AR is so popular, Marketing and you see it used every where.
With today's technology AR's are being built in the home. Magazines can be 3D printed. AR's are like the atomic bomb, the Genie is out of the bottle and it is not going back.

[GoodLife]

There is no need for more gun laws when incompetent FBI and LEOs don't seem able to use the laws already on the books. Cruz violated several laws, threatening school shooting, threatening to kill several people, brandishing weapons in threatening manner etc etc

Need more laws? Looks like Cops had no problem with these 20 arrests made since Parkland

There have been multiple incidents involving threats and weapons at schools since the Florida shooting - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/17/us/other-school-incidents-since-florida-shooting-trnd/index.html)

There is something even darker and more ugly coming to light now, school administrators and Law Enforcement Agencies deciding to make their crime stats look better by overlooking student crimes. Nickname for this type of program is Hug a Thug

Take Broward County, the Florida county that used to rank No. 1 at sending students to their state’s juvenile justice system.
The stats troubled Broward County leaders, and they responded with a bold solution: Lower arrests by not making arrests.
After examining juvenile data, a local task force compiled 12 misdemeanor offenses that would no longer be considered police matters. Criminal mischief and vandalism, for example.

These districts fought the school-to-prison pipeline. Can Pittsburgh learn their lessons? | PublicSource (https://www.publicsource.org/these-districts-fought-the-school-to-prison-pipeline-can-pittsburgh-learn-thei)
r-lessons/

[Steve9930]

There is no need for more gun laws when incompetent FBI and LEOs don't seem able to use the laws already on the books. Cruz violated several laws, threatening school shooting, threatening to kill several people, brandishing weapons in threatening manner etc etc

Need more laws? Looks like Cops had no problem with these 20 arrests made since Parkland

There have been multiple incidents involving threats and weapons at schools since the Florida shooting - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/17/us/other-school-incidents-since-florida-shooting-trnd/index.html)

There is something even darker and more ugly coming to light now, school administrators and Law Enforcement Agencies deciding to make their crime stats look better by overlooking student crimes. Nickname for this type of program is Hug a Thug

Take Broward County, the Florida county that used to rank No. 1 at sending students to their state’s juvenile justice system.
The stats troubled Broward County leaders, and they responded with a bold solution: Lower arrests by not making arrests.
After examining juvenile data, a local task force compiled 12 misdemeanor offenses that would no longer be considered police matters. Criminal mischief and vandalism, for example.

These districts fought the school-to-prison pipeline. Can Pittsburgh learn their lessons? | PublicSource (https://www.publicsource.org/these-districts-fought-the-school-to-prison-pipeline-can-pittsburgh-learn-thei)
r-lessons/

I could not agree more. Enforce the laws. The one common denominator in all these incidents, some one knew there was a problem. In this case not only did they know, hey did not follow through. Reminds me of the story about the woman who took the snake in out of the cold. Hug a thug, wow.

[ColdNoMore]

There is no need for more gun laws when incompetent FBI and LEOs don't seem able to use the laws already on the books. Cruz violated several laws, threatening school shooting, threatening to kill several people, brandishing weapons in threatening manner etc etc

Need more laws? Looks like Cops had no problem with these 20 arrests made since Parkland

There have been multiple incidents involving threats and weapons at schools since the Florida shooting - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/17/us/other-school-incidents-since-florida-shooting-trnd/index.html)

There is something even darker and more ugly coming to light now, school administrators and Law Enforcement Agencies deciding to make their crime stats look better by overlooking student crimes. Nickname for this type of program is Hug a Thug

Take Broward County, the Florida county that used to rank No. 1 at sending students to their state’s juvenile justice system.
The stats troubled Broward County leaders, and they responded with a bold solution: Lower arrests by not making arrests.
After examining juvenile data, a local task force compiled 12 misdemeanor offenses that would no longer be considered police matters. Criminal mischief and vandalism, for example.

These districts fought the school-to-prison pipeline. Can Pittsburgh learn their lessons? | PublicSource (https://www.publicsource.org/these-districts-fought-the-school-to-prison-pipeline-can-pittsburgh-learn-thei)
r-lessons/
"Even darker and more ugly?"

Did you read your own link? :oops:

It's not about making 'stats look better,' it's about eliminating the 'judgement calls'...that are so often applied more harshly to minorities.

Besides, these points straight out of your link...makes perfect sense to me.

At his urging, the department empowered officers to use much more discretion when deciding if an arrest makes sense.

“We do a $25 ticket for marijuana in our city,” Bethel said. For a student on school grounds, “that was a misdemeanor that resulted in an arrest, a fingerprinting, a photographing and a court case.”

.....

She still sees a troubling racial disparity in arrests. Even if numbers are lower overall, officials are struggling to figure out how to reduce the racial disparity. Los Angeles has the same problem.

[GoodLife]

"Even darker and more ugly?"

Did you read your own link? :oops:

It's not about making 'stats look better,' it's about eliminating the 'judgement calls'...that are so often applied more harshly to minorities.

Besides, these points straight out of your link...makes perfect sense to me.

some examples of Hug a Thug, there's lots more I am sure makes perfect sense to you. Do you think Deputy Peterson resigned suddenly because he feels like a hero and wants to spend more time with his family?


Jake Tapper
✔
@jaketapper

This is horrific. “In November, a tipster called BSO to say Cruz ‘could be a school shooter in the making’ but deputies did not write up a report on that warning. It came just weeks after a relative called urging BSO to seize his weapons.”
https://
twitter.com/jaketapper/sta
tus/966853104179273729
…
In a Washington Post report released on Friday, there was a new nugget of information regarding School Resource Deputy Scot Peterson, who did not enter Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School while the shooter was killing students and teachers inside on Valentine’s Day: According to a Florida Department of Children and Families report, in 2016, Peterson was approached by investigators and “refused to share any information … regarding [an] incident that took place with’ the shooter.”

The Post stated, “Peterson is mentioned as part of a 2016 social services agency investigation into (shooter’s name), the 19-year-old identified by police as the gunman. According to a Florida Department of Children and Families report detailing that investigation, Peterson was approached by investigators and ‘refused to share any information … regarding [an] incident that took place with” the teenager.’”

[ColdNoMore]

some examples of Hug a Thug, there's lots more


Jake Tapper
✔
@jaketapper

This is horrific. “In November, a tipster called BSO to say Cruz ‘could be a school shooter in the making’ but deputies did not write up a report on that warning. It came just weeks after a relative called urging BSO to seize his weapons.”
https://
twitter.com/jaketapper/sta
tus/966853104179273729
…
In a Washington Post report released on Friday, there was a new nugget of information regarding School Resource Deputy Scot Peterson, who did not enter Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School while the shooter was killing students and teachers inside on Valentine’s Day: According to a Florida Department of Children and Families report, in 2016, Peterson was approached by investigators and “refused to share any information … regarding [an] incident that took place with’ the shooter.”

The Post stated, “Peterson is mentioned as part of a 2016 social services agency investigation into (shooter’s name), the 19-year-old identified by police as the gunman. According to a Florida Department of Children and Families report detailing that investigation, Peterson was approached by investigators and ‘refused to share any information … regarding [an] incident that took place with” the teenager.’”

Please...go read your own link. :oops:

It references multiple times, that the program addresses ONLY... "nonviolent" behavior.

I hardly think the obsession with guns and their implied use on students... is considered 'nonviolent.' :ohdear:

Without question, this murderer slipped through the cracks on a number of levels...and those cracks need to be addressed.

Just as the failure of those who were armed and are paid to try and stop this kind of thing and instead hid...needs to be addressed.

[ColdNoMore]

Deputies are guarding the home of the Parkland school shooting officer - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/parkland-shooting-officer-resigns-deputies-sent-to-protect-his-family-2018-2)


Deputies from the Palm Beach County Sheriff's office are guarding the home of the school resource officer who was stationed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School after his family requested the protection, according to multiple news reports on Thursday.

Local Fox affiliate WSVN said it sent a reporter to the Boynton Beach, Florida, home of Broward County Sheriff's deputy Scot Peterson for an interview when the reporter was met with six deputies "standing guard outside."

[Chi-Town]

But I'm sure an English teacher with a concealed carry permit...would have "killed the killer." :oops:

Arming teachers in the classroom has to be, IMHO...one of the most idiotic ideas I've ever heard. :ohdear:

Besides the obvious problems of protecting the weapon in the classroom and how even trained LEO's only have about 18% accuracy in a live shooter incident, a post earlier here (from a retired teacher) about whether or not educators will now be hired based on their gun range proficiency...made a point that I hadn't considered.

An all too large swath of 2nd Amendment extremists, have this Walter Mitty notion of one day being 'a hero'...and saving the day.

Not that there are very many that will actually admit to having this fantasy of course.

As shown by what happened with trained professionals being reluctant, the idea of amateurs acting differently...is silly and wishful (hopeful?) thinking.

There are a number of things that I believe can & should be done to stop these mass murders (complete background checks on ALL sales/more thorough followup by agencies on reported individuals/raising age to purchase semi-autos/bump stock ban/???).

But maybe the single most important thing that needs to be done, is to counsel & educate those who are so easily scared when organizations screech that ANY reasonable regulations...are nothing more than an attempt to confiscate all of our guns.

I have yet to read where ANY legitimate or substantive organization/lawmaker/political faction...is advocating a wholesale ban and/or confiscation of firearms.

I mean really, why are some people so easily frightened and so gullible about something that isn't even being seriously proposed...or is going to ever happen? :confused:The president said that no shooter would enter a school where an armed guard posed a threat. Hmmm, maybe if the guard looked like Charles Bronson.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[GoodLife]

Please...go read your own link. :oops:

It references multiple times, that the program addresses ONLY... "nonviolent" behavior.

I hardly think the obsession with guns and their implied use on students... is considered 'nonviolent.' :ohdear:

.

Right, here is the actual Hug a Thug law called Promise Program. Read it and weep.

http://www.ncjfcj.org/sites/default/files/Broward%20Co%20Collaborative%20Agreement%20on%20Sc hool%20Discipline%20-%20MOU.pdf


WHEREAS, The Florida Legislature “encourage[s] schools to use alternatives to expulsion or referral to law enforcement agencies by addressing disruptive behavior through restitution, civil citation, teen court, neighborhood restorative justice, or similar programs” and has instructed school districts “that zero-tolerance policies are not intended to be rigorously applied to petty acts of misconduct and misdemeanors, including, but not limited to, minor fights or disturbances



How did that work out for the slaughtered students?

Let's have a teen court!

oops!

5 § 1006.13(4) Fla. Stat. (2012). “Each district school board shall enter into agreements with the county sheriff’s office and local police department … [that specify] the role of school resource officers, if applicable, in handling reported incidents, circumstances in which school officials may handle incidents without filing a report with a law enforcement agency, and a procedure for ensuring that school personnel properly report appropriate delinquent acts and crimes. Zero-tolerance policies do not require the reporting of petty acts of misconduct and misdemeanors to a law enforcement agency, including, but not limited to, disorderly conduct, disrupting a school function, simple assault or battery, affray, theft of less than $300, trespassing, and vandalism of less than $1,000.”

You just don't get it. Broward county politicians including LEOs made this program to lower their juvenile arrests, improve their crime stats, and get more grants. Now we have evidence that they ignored much more than "violent crimes"

It worked, except for the students who got slaughtered.

When I was 10 years old, I went into a drugstore and cleverly slipped a 10 cent comb up my sleeve and walked out. Someone at the store who knew me called police, and shortly after a patrol car showed up at my home. For a 10 cent comb! Officers told my parents what I had done. I never stole anything in my life again.

You think liberal policies like Hug a Thug work. They do not.

[GoodLife]

Deputies are guarding the home of the Parkland school shooting officer - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/parkland-shooting-officer-resigns-deputies-sent-to-protect-his-family-2018-2)

And why do you think this Deputy needs armed guards?

He is a hero in danger of NRA assassination squads?

Perhaps Broward County Sheriff Israel does not want him to talk to reporters?

Maybe he just resigned suddenly to spend more time with his family and collect well deserved pension?

[Carl in Tampa]

It is time to consider a system that has proven to be effective since its inception in 1974.

THE ISRAEL MODEL REGARDING SCHOOL SHOOTING PREVENTION IS WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION. INSTITUTED IN 1974, IT HAS BEEN REMARKABLY EFFECTIVE.

"When terrorists attacked a school in Maalot in 1974, Israel did not declare every school a gun-free zone. It passed a law mandating armed security in schools, provided weapons training to teachers and today runs frequent active shooter drills. There have been only two school shootings since then, and both have ended with TEACHERS KILLING THE TERRORISTS."

Worth repeating: TEACHERS killing the terrorists.

Now. We know what really works. We should do it.

Israel proves the NRA's arguments - Israel National News (https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/21714)

[GoodLife]

Please...go read your own link. :oops:


Without question, this murderer slipped through the cracks on a number of levels...and those cracks need to be addressed.

Just as the failure of those who were armed and are paid to try and stop this kind of thing and instead hid...needs to be addressed.

So we need more laws because shooter "slipped through cracks" and Broward County Deputies were cowards?

New Law: Murderers who slip through cracks are outlawed even if current laws outlaw them, also cowards.

[fw102807]

They failed these kids on every possible level. Nothing we do is going to help these kids if nobody does their job.

[ColdNoMore]

Oh, I "get it" very well.

There's a tremendous knee-jerk defensive response ongoing, because the slogan of "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun"...was proved demonstrably false in this particular horrendous act.

[Kenswing]

Oh, I "get it" very well.

There's a tremendous knee-jerk defensive response ongoing, because the slogan of "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun"...was proved demonstrably false in this horrendous act.

Declaring schools to be gun free zones only provides easy targets.

[billethkid]

A very big difference is considering a coward with a gun = good guy!!

None of us know how we would react in a real shooting situation, however these guys are trained to confront the threat, hence the adverse reaction to their inaction.

[GoodLife]

Oh, I "get it" very well.

There's a tremendous knee-jerk defensive response ongoing, because the slogan of "only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun"...was proved demonstrably false in this particular horrendous act.

Only problem with your theory is the "good guy" was a coward who hid outside and also dropped the ball with numerous chances to arrest the shooter before he killed. The actual good guys were students and teachers that used their own body to protect others.

[ColdNoMore]

It is time to consider a system that has proven to be effective since its inception in 1974.

THE ISRAEL MODEL REGARDING SCHOOL SHOOTING PREVENTION IS WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION. INSTITUTED IN 1974, IT HAS BEEN REMARKABLY EFFECTIVE.

"When terrorists attacked a school in Maalot in 1974, Israel did not declare every school a gun-free zone. It passed a law mandating armed security in schools, provided weapons training to teachers and today runs frequent active shooter drills. There have been only two school shootings since then, and both have ended with TEACHERS KILLING THE TERRORISTS."

Worth repeating: TEACHERS killing the terrorists.

Now. We know what really works. We should do it.

Israel proves the NRA's arguments - Israel National News (https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/21714)

So you're advocating that we emulate Israel's strict gun control laws?

OK...let's do it. :thumbup:

Hey NRA, check out Israel's gun laws | Charley Warady | The Blogs | The Times of Israel (http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israels-gun-laws/)

We don’t have mass murders in schools and movie theaters and malls in Israel. A superficial look by any Fox News fanatic would attribute this to the public display of arms that is so common here.

There is nothing further from the truth.

Israel has some of the toughest gun restrictions in the world. The problem is, the world doesn’t know that. For instance; To obtain a gun license, an applicant must be a resident of Israel for at least three consecutive years, have no criminal record, be in good health, have no history of mental illness, pass a weapons-training course, and be over a certain age:

20 for women who completed military service or civil service equivalent
21 for men who completed military service or civil service equivalent
27 for those who did not complete military service or civil service equivalent
45 for residents of East Jerusalem.
Gun licenses must be renewed every three years and permits are given only for personal use, not for business in the firearms sale while HOLDERS FOR SELF-DEFENSE PURPOSES MAY ONLY OWN ONE HANDGUN and MAY PURCHASE A MAXIMUM OF FIFTY ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION A YEAR except for those shot at firing ranges.

Could anyone imagine getting the above laws past the NRA?

And to get that license? Let’s just say you can’t go to a gun show and shell out some cash. In Israel, we take it seriously.

[ColdNoMore]

The president said that no shooter would enter a school where an armed guard posed a threat. Hmmm, maybe if the guard looked like Charles Bronson.


But, but, but, it's not like the shooter went to the school and knew it had an armed resource officer, because if he did...he would have never done it.

Oh wait.... :oops:

[GoodLife]

But, but, but, it's not like the shooter went to the school and knew it had an armed resource officer, because if he did...he would have never done it.

Oh wait.... :oops:

Maybe (no actually) the shooter had already met the armed resource officer and knew he was an easily manipulated idiot who would do nothing because he was restrained by feel good hug a thug policies and smelled like a coward.

Oh wait...oops

[ColdNoMore]

Maybe (no actually) the shooter had already met the armed resource officer and knew he was an easily manipulated idiot who would do nothing because he was restrained by feel good hug a thug policies and smelled like a coward.

Oh wait...oops

LOL

I'm curious to know the test that guarantees how a person (whether LEO or teacher) will act under pressure...when actually faced with this situation?

If they can't weed out the 'cowards' (your word) in the Sheriff's department, exactly how will this be accomplished...with armed teachers in the classroom? :oops:


I think my earlier post kinda sums it up....

An all too large swath of 2nd Amendment extremists, have this Walter Mitty notion of one day being 'a hero'...and saving the day.

Not that there are very many that will actually admit to having this fantasy of course.



Time for some shuteye. :wave:

[GoodLife]

If Peterson had charged in and immediately been shot you could maybe argue that outcome was a rebuttal to the NRA line, i.e. a good guy was there but nothing changed. But in this case, the “good guy” never tried to engage the shooter. So unless the NRA claims, “To stop a bad guy with a gun, it takes a guy standing around outside doing nothing,” this is not any kind of rebuttal.

[ColdNoMore]

If Peterson had charged in and immediately been shot you could maybe argue that outcome was a rebuttal to the NRA line, i.e. a good guy was there but nothing changed. But in this case, the “good guy” never tried to engage the shooter. So unless the NRA claims, “To stop a bad guy with a gun, it takes a guy standing around outside doing nothing,” this is not any kind of rebuttal.

Report: Other deputies waited outside during Parkland shooting - UPI.com (https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2018/02/24/Report-Other-deputies-waited-outside-during-Parkland-shooting/1571519484154/)

Feb. 24 (UPI) -- At least two additional deputies waited outside a Florida high school during a shooting last week, two nearby city police officers told the Broward County Sheriff's Office.

At least three officers, including the resigned School Resource Officer Scot Peterson, didn't attempt to find the killer, Coral Springs Police told Israel.



G'night. :ho:

[Carl in Tampa]

So you're advocating that we emulate Israel's strict gun control laws?

OK...let's do it. :thumbup:

Hey NRA, check out Israel's gun laws | Charley Warady | The Blogs | The Times of Israel (http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israels-gun-laws/)

The blogger you quote shows extreme ignorance of gun laws in America. He lists requirements for "obtaining a gun license in Israel" as being "some of the toughest in the world" and yet they are almost identical to the requirements for getting a concealed weapons license in Florida. The difference is that of course you need not have lived in Israel and there are no tiers of age restrictions.

In 2015, after a particularly bloody Jerusalem shooting attack that killed four, then-Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan drastically changed the gun laws in order to significantly raise the number of armed civilians on the streets. Instantly, graduates of Special Forces units and IDF officers with the rank of Lieutenant and above were permitted to purchase guns at their will, security guards were allowed to bring their guns home after work, and the minimum age for a license was reduced from 21 to 18.

Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat called for every resident to carry a gun, and was even photographed traveling the city carrying a Glock 23.

In addition, the overwhelming majority of terror attacks in Israel are stopped by armed civilians, not law enforcement. For example, the terrorists in the 2016 Sarona market attack were stopped by armed passersby. A pistol-carrying tour guide put an end to the 2017 ramming attack in Arnona that left four soldiers dead.

Gun control has been proven to be a dismal failure in Israel. The Israeli Arab communities are rife with illegal weapons, with some police estimates putting the number of unlicensed weapons in the Arab sector as high as 500,000. Think about that for a second: The most heavily guarded borders in the world and a highly professional Shin Bet are still not enough to prevent criminals from obtaining illegal firearms.

Again: Emulate the Israel model to stop school shootings.

[GoodLife]

Report: Other deputies waited outside during Parkland shooting - UPI.com (https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2018/02/24/Report-Other-deputies-waited-outside-during-Parkland-shooting/1571519484154/)




G'night. :ho:

So other Broward Deputies were cowards? What's your point? These are already established facts. More cowards does not prove your point. We know of actual heroes like the students and teachers who actually used their bodies to protect others.

[GoodLife]

I give you Lawrence Tribe, renowned Constitutional Law and gun expert. The stupid burns. Nobody can fire a semi automatic rifle at 10 rounds per second. He did get the R in rifle part correct.


Laurence Tribe
✔
@tribelaw

The R in NRA stands for RIFLE. The AR-15 is a semi-automatic RIFLE. Its bullets fly at over 2,000 mph. It easily fires over 10 rounds PER SECOND. Its only purpose is to rip human beings apart and leave them dead. Nobody needs it for defense or for sport. It should be BANNED.
7:27 AM - Feb 24, 2018

[Wiotte]

The blogger you quote shows extreme ignorance of gun laws in America. He lists requirements for "obtaining a gun license in Israel" as being "some of the toughest in the world" and yet they are almost identical to the requirements for getting a concealed weapons license in Florida. The difference is that of course you need not have lived in Israel and there are no tiers of age restrictions.



In 2015, after a particularly bloody Jerusalem shooting attack that killed four, then-Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan drastically changed the gun laws in order to significantly raise the number of armed civilians on the streets. Instantly, graduates of Special Forces units and IDF officers with the rank of Lieutenant and above were permitted to purchase guns at their will, security guards were allowed to bring their guns home after work, and the minimum age for a license was reduced from 21 to 18.



Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat called for every resident to carry a gun, and was even photographed traveling the city carrying a Glock 23.



In addition, the overwhelming majority of terror attacks in Israel are stopped by armed civilians, not law enforcement. For example, the terrorists in the 2016 Sarona market attack were stopped by armed passersby. A pistol-carrying tour guide put an end to the 2017 ramming attack in Arnona that left four soldiers dead.



Gun control has been proven to be a dismal failure in Israel. The Israeli Arab communities are rife with illegal weapons, with some police estimates putting the number of unlicensed weapons in the Arab sector as high as 500,000. Think about that for a second: The most heavily guarded borders in the world and a highly professional Shin Bet are still not enough to prevent criminals from obtaining illegal firearms.



Again: Emulate the Israel model to stop school shootings.



Israel has been at war every year since 1949. Not a very good comparison, nor would
I want to live as they do, but, that’s their choice.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Carl in Tampa]

Israel has been at war every year since 1949. Not a very good comparison, nor would
I want to live as they do, but, that’s their choice.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have suggested a model that has been proven to work for decades.

Please fully articulate your solution that would stop mass shootings in American schools.

I would be most interested in your solution.

[ColdNoMore]

I give you Lawrence Tribe, renowned Constitutional Law and gun expert. The stupid burns. Nobody can fire a semi automatic rifle at 10 rounds per second. He did get the R in rifle part correct.


Laurence Tribe
✔
@tribelaw

The R in NRA stands for RIFLE. The AR-15 is a semi-automatic RIFLE. Its bullets fly at over 2,000 mph. It easily fires over 10 rounds PER SECOND. Its only purpose is to rip human beings apart and leave them dead. Nobody needs it for defense or for sport. It should be BANNED.
7:27 AM - Feb 24, 2018



It should be obvious to even a person with a modicum of intelligence, that Tribe was referencing an AR15 outfitted with legal bump stocks.

Regardless, he at least had the integrity to publicly apologize for his incorrect statement.

https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/967535732624674818

I stand corrected. Just 5 rounds per second, each able to rip a human body to shreds. https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/967375494659395584 (https://t.co/XikcE8G4eM)



Then again, he wasn't that far off originally.

A bump fire stock made Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock's guns deadlier - and it's legal - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bump-fire-stock-ar-15-stephen-paddock-guns-deadlier/)

The modifications he appears to have made to his semi-automatic AR-15s, which by one estimate allowed him to fire as many as nine rounds per second, can be bought in many different forms on the internet.

I think the obvious is the attempt to parse, get hung up on semantics and try to deflect from the the underlying truth...that being the firing rate of a weapon that has only one primary purpose.

[Taltarzac725]

What if we all just join the NRA, vote new people in charge, change the name to the National Reading Association, and then give all of the lobbying money to librarians? Who's with me?

1:22 PM - 23 Feb 2018

I saw this on my Facebook feed this morning. From one of the many library lovers I follow.

All of this seems to come down to $$$$$. Has very little to do with self defense in a reasonable manner in an average home in the United States.

How are the NRA leaders selected anyway?

These look like much more reasonable tools for home defense--

Best Home Defense Shotguns | Range365 (https://www.range365.com/six-best-home-defense-shotguns)

[Taltarzac725]

School Safety Ideas Nobody Wants to Talk About




Fatherlessness needs to be addressed. Kids need dads- most shooters don't have an involved dad. Can we connect boys without fathers to father-figure mentors? This is also a theme in the inner-city, less-publicized, yet more-frequent gun crimes in minority communities.

Adults need to be held accountable. The Parkland shooting last week is 'Exhibit A' on that. Dozens of adults at the school, local law enforcement agencies, and even the FBI knew about this kid and what he said he was going to do. Another adult, the SRO on duty, could have stopped it while it was happening but never went in. How many adults around this situation will be charged with crimes like negligence or manslaughter for their blatant failures? My guess is zero. How many will lose their jobs? My guess is zero. Nobody does anything because you risk nothing by doing nothing and get in trouble if you take a proactive approach and try to do address things before the blood is spilled. This is up and down our education and law enforcement systems.

Boys need safe environments to fight and let out their physical aggression. Young men involved in physically violent sports like football, wrestling, karate, etc. typically do not become mass murderers. I feel like our present culture is trying to take the fight out of our boys, but it's still hard-wired into them. Where no healthy outlets for this natural aggression exist, unhealthy ones will take their place. We need to stop shaming our boys and applying negative labels to boys that have a strong urge to fight. We need to guide and encourage them to find a healthy outlet, not tell them they're broken or bad.

The role of pharmaceutical drugs in mass shootings needs to be thoroughly investigated. It's too common of a theme to be ignored as a potential factor. Too many of our kids are getting drugged up instead of getting the care they really need. Right on the labels of these mood-altering drugs are side effects like "Hallucinations- loss of contact with reality." and "Suicidal thoughts." Yet we don't immediately ask about the prescriptions these kids are on, instead focusing on what kind of gun they used.

Training kids to huddle together as stationary targets on the ground, HAS TO STOP. It's stupid and getting our kids killed in greater numbers during these events. If they can't get in a secured room separated from the shooter, they need to run or fight, period. Get out the window or tackle the shooter etc are all way better things to teach. There are great programs to better train our kids on how to react to this threat.

Empower and encourage teachers and school administrators to have a plan, have the support of the district, and secure their classrooms the way they're comfortable with. Too many wonderful teachers with hearts of lions for protecting their kids are fearful bringing up their desires to their bosses whom will point to policy and liability concerns over common-sense solutions the teacher needs and wants. Teachers, if you don't get the support you need, do what you need to do anyways quietly. Damn the system. Keep our kids safe. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer here, but all kinds of things could help like: ways to block/harden doors, weapons (gun or non-gun) to have a fighting chance if a shooter makes it through the door, and additional escape options like rope ladders for 2nd story windows teachers can deploy, etc. We can't have a cop everywhere and even if we do, there's no guarantee they won't be taking their sweet time outside like the Parkland SRO did while your class is in the crosshairs. Teachers are right there and the first line of defense and they need to think about it and take it seriously and not get in trouble if they do.

Finally, and most importantly, we need to improve the culture of our nation and our schools. We need to value human life highly. We need love. We need kindness. We need compassion. We need to look for the kids that are becoming isolated and need help and go help them. We need more than just anger at what's wrong, we need to celebrate the good stories and champions of kindness. Kids that care for one another don't kill each other. We need to touch the hearts of kids and train them up in morality and virtue- not just pack their heads full of information. This is exactly what we focused on when I worked for Rachel's Challenge, one of the top anti-violence programs in the country, and we saw tons of lives saved by changing the culture of schools from the inside out. (would-be-shooters with kill lists turning themselves in, gang members laying down their colors, suicides planned for that night canceled, etc.) Invite them to your school as a great way to start this cultural transformation.

This person seems to have put some thought into this and paints with small strokes playing great attention to the small details of real life.

[PennBF]

In NY (Hudson Valley) there was a very sizable Mental Health Hospital. Then came along the ACLU who said there was no right to "lock people up" who were mentally ill without due process. They took it to the courts and the courts agreed. SO ALL THE MENTALLY ILL IN THIS VERY LARGE MENTAL HOSPITAL WERE IMMEDIATELY TURNED LOOSE ON THE STREETS. You are seeing the results of this action today in the shootings. Somebody said you can't lock all of the mentally ill up..If you determine they are that ill you should be able to lock them up. It is crazy for some to complain about the "nuts" killing hundreds of good people including children and then taking the position these crazy people should not be confined from humanity !! We are now seeing the results of this thinking. How does the saying go, "how you sow so shall you reap". We are now reaping the results of our actions.:ohdear:

[Steve9930]

Wow, as usual there's lots of passion on this subject. Laws crafted driven by passion and emotion rarely are rational themselves. The AR-15 is a formidable weapon. However I can think of a few shot gun rounds that would have done more carnage. Definitely there are hunting rifles that are more deadly. Now I'll beat you to he punch: "But you can't fire as meany rounds as an AR-15". That's true and an AR-15 can't fire as many as you think either. Goes back to what I posted earlier. "Educate your self on the capabilities of the firearms you are trying to get people to give up else you loose your credibility in the discussion.

You can debate everything that happened that day, and to play what ifs this was done right, or that had been followed through is good to do once and learn from what failed and fix it. After that its time to move on.

Harden the Target, can't say that too many times. It works. Raise the age to buy a firearm to 21. Times have changed, we need to address the problem because its not going to go away. You need trained security(the number needed is dependent on the facility), access control to the building, for those teachers who want to and are deemed capable let them conceal carry, children (Yes at that age they are still children) that show mental problems need to be identified and helped (This kid was screaming I have a problem), I would not transfer a firearm between people without a background check (Yep that includes private sales), the background check system needs to be fixed(All the Data necessary is not being collected properly and available to all parties), and we need Red Flag Laws that allow at least investigating a possible problem.

What I see now in the public eye and hows its being debated is not going to correct anything. I agree with the Gentleman who lost a child, Columbine should have been the first and last school shooting. Also society needs to stop glorifying the AR-15. That rifle shows up every where, TV, Movies, etc. Young minds like to emulate what they see.

[Taltarzac725]

In NY (Hudson Valley) there was a very sizable Mental Health Hospital. Then came along the ACLU who said there was no right to "lock people up" who were mentally ill without due process. They took it to the courts and the courts agreed. SO ALL THE MENTALLY ILL IN THIS VERY LARGE MENTAL HOSPITAL WERE IMMEDIATELY TURNED LOOSE ON THE STREETS. You are seeing the results of this action today in the shootings. Somebody said you can't lock all of the mentally ill up..If you determine they are that ill you should be able to lock them up. It is crazy for some to complain about the "nuts" killing hundreds of good people including children and then taking the position these crazy people should not be confined from humanity !! We are now seeing the results of this thinking. How does the saying go, "how you sow so shall you reap". We are now reaping the results of our actions.:ohdear:

The problem with that is that most mentally ill are people are not violent and they are far more likely to be the victims of crime rather than those who commit them. There are a very large number of Americans with problems like depression.

And the biggest problem is that psychology and psychiatry are very young sciences and are more art than science. The mind is a lot more complicated than any other human organ and not all that well understood.

[Steve9930]

Times have sure changed.

[graciegirl]

Times have sure changed.

To who and what are you referring? The fact that insane asylums don't exist?

[Taltarzac725]

I just took a long time writing this post and I would like it to be read, Tal. Although you made a valid point. We should not make mentally ill people criminals in our minds.

Some psychiatrists just depend on drugs and never really treat the patient. Golfing Eagles has made various very good comments about psychiatry and its practitioners. The inner conflicts of psychiatry exposed | Tidsskrift for Den norske legeforening (http://tidsskriftet.no/en/2017/03/editor/inner-conflicts-psychiatry-exposed)

[graciegirl]

Some psychiatrists just depend on drugs and never really treat the patient. Golfing Eagles has made various very good comments about psychiatry and its practitioners.

I really believe genetics has a lot to do with mental illness. No quick fix there. I also think counseling is useless unless it involves a traumatic event. I have completely changed my mind from what I was taught in school. I think people are BORN with a certain personality that can't be altered much by anything.

[Taltarzac725]

I really believe genetics has a lot to do with mental illness. No quick fix there. I also think counseling is useless unless it involves a traumatic event. I have completely changed my mind from what I was taught in school. I think people are BORN with a certain personality that can't be altered much by anything.

In some cases that seems right and it seems to run in families. Certain mental health problems I mean. Others can be triggered by traumatic experiences however.

There was a woman whose boyfriend was on Findlaw. She had witnessed her mother being murdered when she was very young. She ended up driving her car onto oncoming traffic and could not get the mental health care she so needed due in part to how attractive she was. She died in that accident as well I believe did others. The boyfriend was some kind of soldier in KY/TN. The boyfriend had been trying to get her the help she urgently needed through Findlaw.

[graciegirl]

I also think that the adults used the kids in Broward county to further their own beliefs. Everyone was very frightened and no one should have encouraged these teens to be activists, especially immediately after this horrendous event. I blame the media as well making these youngsters click bait.

I like our sheriffs. I am very skeptical of Sheriff Israel in Broward County. The nearby law enforcement acted bravely and reasonably.

[Taltarzac725]

I also think that the adults used the kids in Broward county to further their own beliefs. Everyone was very frightened and no one should have encouraged these teens to be activists, especially immediately after this horrendous event. I blame the media as well making these youngsters click bait.

I like our sheriffs. I am very skeptical of Sheriff Israel in Broward County. The nearby law enforcement acted bravely and reasonably.

From what I hear the kids did this on their own. They are very mad and are trying to change their world. More power to them. Many kids in the Villages' area I expect are also thinking of taking action.

[graciegirl]

From what I hear the kids did this on their own. They are very mad and are trying to change their world. More power to them. Many kids in the Villages' area I expect are also thinking of taking action.

One major difference between you and me is that I am a mother and I was a teacher. I don't think they did it on their own.

[Taltarzac725]

One major difference between you and me is that I am a mother and I was a teacher. I don't think they did it on their own.

I cannot say much yet about this because of privacy matters.

Let me just say that my Facebook links are heart wrenching. And some of these are from teachers and mothers/grand mothers.

[billethkid]

One major difference between you and me is that I am a mother and I was a teacher. I don't think they did it on their own.

Agree 100%!!

[Villagesperson]

Agree 100%!!

I have no idea if your accusations are true or not, and suspect that you do not either.

I just know that never saw activist kids being accused of such things as...

.....Being paid actors
.....Being paid pawns of a rich liberal
.....Being children of FBI agents who are "running cover for them", a continuing attack on law enforcement
.....Being uninformed and not "smart" enough to carry this fight.

All of these things have been part of a series of conspiracy theories put out there by the normal extreme right wing conspiracy groups and websites.

Pretty darn sad, in my opinion, that we would attack these kids like this without so much as one single item showing or allowing for a basis to make these charges.

We have elected officials and relatives tweeting and forwarding this stuff all over the place.

I always felt it was a good thing when young people spoke up and said what was on their mind.

For the record....I do not own a gun, and actually have no strong opinions one way or another because it is ALL politics now and has nothing to do with the safety of children or anyone else.

[Taltarzac725]

One major difference between you and me is that I am a mother and I was a teacher. I don't think they did it on their own.

Journalists have kids in school as well. Some of this is about ratings and $$$$ but there is genuine concern for these kids in the action of some of the media. The kids seem extremely determined to make changes and that is a very well connected and affluent school. They are also very internet savvy. The kids I mean. And their parents, uncles, aunts, as well as some of their grand parents.

I am an uncle to numerous kids and grand uncle to a few. Did a little teaching of how to use legal resources when a reference librarian as well as on Findlaw and now on Facebook.

[billethkid]

I have no idea if your accusations are true or not, and suspect that you do not either.

I just know that never saw activist kids being accused of such things as...

.....Being paid actors
.....Being paid pawns of a rich liberal
.....Being children of FBI agents who are "running cover for them", a continuing attack on law enforcement
.....Being uninformed and not "smart" enough to carry this fight.

All of these things have been part of a series of conspiracy theories put out there by the normal extreme right wing conspiracy groups and websites.

Pretty darn sad, in my opinion, that we would attack these kids like this without so much as one single item showing or allowing for a basis to make these charges.

We have elected officials and relatives tweeting and forwarding this stuff all over the place.

I always felt it was a good thing when young people spoke up and said what was on their mind.

For the record....I do not own a gun, and actually have no strong opinions one way or another because it is ALL politics now and has nothing to do with the safety of children or anyone else.

Methinks you are addressing the wrong poster!!!!

[Taltarzac725]

I have no idea if your accusations are true or not, and suspect that you do not either.

I just know that never saw activist kids being accused of such things as...

.....Being paid actors
.....Being paid pawns of a rich liberal
.....Being children of FBI agents who are "running cover for them", a continuing attack on law enforcement
.....Being uninformed and not "smart" enough to carry this fight.

All of these things have been part of a series of conspiracy theories put out there by the normal extreme right wing conspiracy groups and websites.

Pretty darn sad, in my opinion, that we would attack these kids like this without so much as one single item showing or allowing for a basis to make these charges.

We have elected officials and relatives tweeting and forwarding this stuff all over the place.

I always felt it was a good thing when young people spoke up and said what was on their mind.

For the record....I do not own a gun, and actually have no strong opinions one way or another because it is ALL politics now and has nothing to do with the safety of children or anyone else.

Those are sad. These kids will have problems the rest of their lives with post traumatic stress and with being associated with that Valentine's Day massacre also for the rest of their lives. They have no choice in the matter. They can bury it but that will also cause problems.

They are turning their pain into something positive which is their best option.

[Abby10]

This person seems to have put some thought into this and paints with small strokes playing great attention to the small details of real life.

Referencing your quoted post -

Many of us have cited these same things over and over as to some of the reasons for the increasing breakdowns and violence in our society, such as -

-The breakdown of the family unit - your article mentions so many fatherless homes, to name one aspect of this
-The nature of boys in general and how that is being constantly suppressed
-Drugs, drugs, and more drugs (both legal and illegal) - I certainly could go on and on about that with first-hand knowledge as to what that has done and is doing to our society
-Improving the culture/valuing life - again, another lengthy discussion with many facets

The point is that all of these issues get swept under the table because the discussion always comes back to and revolves around gun control. An inanimate object that can do no harm until someone with the wrong intent engages with it. Until we get past this, nothing much will change. We must start focusing on the why's not just the how's. We must look at both long term and short term solutions. Short term meaning immediate security measures for our students and long term including many of the issues stated above.

On another note, some continue to bring up what they perceive as a fear of our guns being taken away. I think that is a broad overstatement. The fear is that by focusing on gun control as the only solution, the criminals win. Those many more law abiding citizens will be left with inferior weapons with which to protect themselves if guns that are now readily available are banned. I'm not saying I'm against any measures being taken, such as banning bump stocks, raising the age limit, and improvements on background checks, but how about trying the approach of better law enforcement of current laws on the books, along with the measures stated, before jumping to the ban of certain guns.

[GoodLife]

I think the obvious is the attempt to parse, get hung up on semantics and try to deflect from the the underlying truth...that being the firing rate of a weapon that has only one primary purpose.

Let me explain this to you. The firing rate of a standard AR 15 rifle is no faster than any other semi automatic rifle or gun with a trigger. It shoots one bullet per trigger pull. The world champion shooter who can get 5 rounds per second with an AR 15 can do the same with a Glock.

Guns do not have a "primary purpose" other than firing bullets. It is us humans who decide where to aim them.

[graciegirl]

Most kids under eighteen don't know where the governor lives. Most young people under eighteen need funded to buy all those alike tee shirts. Many people employed by the mainstream media would kick their conscience under the bed to get a news score. I hope this all will help these young people, because to me it looks like the adults around them were using them.

[8notes]

Nope
Gun Control in Australia, Updated - FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have no idea if your accusations are true or not, and suspect that you do not either.

I just know that never saw activist kids being accused of such things as...

.....Being paid actors
.....Being paid pawns of a rich liberal
.....Being children of FBI agents who are "running cover for them", a continuing attack on law enforcement
.....Being uninformed and not "smart" enough to carry this fight.

All of these things have been part of a series of conspiracy theories put out there by the normal extreme right wing conspiracy groups and websites.

Pretty darn sad, in my opinion, that we would attack these kids like this without so much as one single item showing or allowing for a basis to make these charges.

We have elected officials and relatives tweeting and forwarding this stuff all over the place.

I always felt it was a good thing when young people spoke up and said what was on their mind.

For the record....I do not own a gun, and actually have no strong opinions one way or another because it is ALL politics now and has nothing to do with the safety of children or anyone else.

Thank you. Well said. Many of us agree with you. It is shameful the way these kids are being treated, simply for being patriotic Americans.

[graciegirl]

Thank you. Well said. Many of us agree with you. It is shameful the way these kids are being treated, simply for being patriotic Americans.

Those children are not being treated badly except by those using them to further their own ideas and views. It isn't right to do that. It will not change anything. The divide in this country is between people who believe things like "they are simply being patriotic Americans" and those who clearly see those kids are being directed by adults.

We are generally not marchers but we are VOTERS.

[Abby10]

I have no idea if your accusations are true or not, and suspect that you do not either.

I just know that never saw activist kids being accused of such things as...

.....Being paid actors
.....Being paid pawns of a rich liberal
.....Being children of FBI agents who are "running cover for them", a continuing attack on law enforcement
.....Being uninformed and not "smart" enough to carry this fight.

All of these things have been part of a series of conspiracy theories put out there by the normal extreme right wing conspiracy groups and websites.

Pretty darn sad, in my opinion, that we would attack these kids like this without so much as one single item showing or allowing for a basis to make these charges.

We have elected officials and relatives tweeting and forwarding this stuff all over the place.

I always felt it was a good thing when young people spoke up and said what was on their mind.

For the record....I do not own a gun, and actually have no strong opinions one way or another because it is ALL politics now and has nothing to do with the safety of children or anyone else.

I don't know about all of these things that you claim because I haven't heard or read any of them. Maybe they are just not sites where I get my news. But to reference your point about young people - yes, it is good to see them become interested in something more worldly than the usual teenage things. And certainly, after what they have been through their voices deserve to be heard.

However, when I think back to how I was at that age, and although I was considered a good kid who was above average intelligence, and a student government leader in my school, I knew very little about life or the world compared to what I know now. At that age, I was much more influenced by others and prone to crowd mentality than I am now as a more experienced adult. So long story short, to put these kids on a pedestal as an influence to make long reaching decisions is a bit scary to me.

Just throwing this out there to consider.

[fw102807]

Referencing your quoted post -
Many of us have cited these same things over and over

Exactly, this thread has become beating a dead horse. There is nothing new and we are left with the left wingers and right wingers going at each other with no viable solutions in sight. I for one am done.

[GoodLife]

Jake Tapper CNN interviews Broward Sheriff Israel


TAPPER: The last question, sir. Do you think that if the Broward Sheriff's Office had done things differently, this shooting might not have happened?

ISRAEL: Listen, ifs and buts and candy and nuts, O.J. Simpson would still be in the record books.

TAPPER: I don't know what that means.
There's 17 dead people, and there's a whole long list of things your department could have been done differently.

Full transcript:

Read the full transcript of Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel - CNNPolitics (https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/25/politics/sheriff-israel-sotu-full-transcript/index.html)
.

[My Post]

Insane this guy has not been fired yet. And let me guess he is making about 200K a year and will get a 90% pension, and tell us he hasn't taken a vacation in 10 years (wink wink) so he gets another 90K out the door.

[Steve9930]

To who and what are you referring? The fact that insane asylums don't exist?

Society is really on the down side slide......

[Abby10]

Internet has changed this world, mostly negative.

The Positive is the new awareness of young people today.

I, unlike you applaud loudly, the involvement of young people. And the firing up of the "bots" and the attacks on the kids tell me, the "other side" whomever that is, have nothing to say except attack....media, FBI, or the left....of course that is daily, and in this case, I am simply responding to NON VALIDATED attacks on not only these kids, but on various others pointed out with no factual basis as responsible for this movement. The only reason for my post was, the constant unsupported attacks.

I certainly have respect for young people and applaud those who are creative thinkers, especially those who exhibit a mind of their own and aren't afraid to speak it. I also believe these teenagers who were victims of a terrible tragedy deserve to be heard......absolutely!!

I don't think that questioning whether children should be at the forefront of policy decisions is an unsupported attack as you call it. Sometimes we adults put children in adult positions before they are ready for such responsibility. Consider their viewpoints - YES!; write them in stone - NO!

[Abby10]

Just as an add-on to my last post - we don't know WHO these kids are being influenced by, IF anyone at all. Again, I go back to my teen years and recollect MANY influences on my life. I did not have the life skills yet to make big decisions and am sure if called on to do so, I would have been swayed by one influence or another.

This is not a bashing of these students, just a reality check - they are still children.

[Abby10]

Exactly, this thread has become beating a dead horse. There is nothing new and we are left with the left wingers and right wingers going at each other with no viable solutions in sight. I for one am done.

If I was smart, I would follow your lead. :thumbup:

[graciegirl]

Just as an add-on to my last post - we don't know WHO these kids are being influenced by, IF anyone at all. Again, I go back to my teen years and recollect MANY influences on my life. I did not have the life skills yet to make big decisions and am sure if called on to do so, I would have been swayed by one influence or another.

This is not a bashing of these students, just a reality check - they are still children.

I agree. Not one post put down these kids.

Broward county has a voter base that is different completely from Sumter County. Of course the population in Sumter is the oldest in the entire country, by county.

The kids are reflecting the views of their families I am sure. Maybe the families think this will help them through their grief.

I don't think these kids orchestrated this by themselves. Period and amen.

[villagerjack]

bUnfortunately, too many politicians are beholden to the NRA to make a needed change.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180215/d0e0949f25c7c698cfc3e32cc98bb79c.jpg

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Silly. If he had a handgun or a hunting rifle, kids would still have been killed. The NRA had ZERO responsibility for those deaths. Inept FBI and untrained cowardly law enforcement have blood and deaths on their hands.

[Steve9930]

My honest opinion. I believe this young generation has too much information. The teen years are tough enough. If you look at the correlation between the violence in the schools and the rise of the information age its eye opening.

[My Post]

I totally agree Steve. Things happening too fast for teens to process. I think the amount of Pornography studies say they watch from a young age is very sad. It desensitizes them. There was a whole article about it in the NY Post recently. They come out with a very wrong outlook on the reality of things.

With that said no 18 year old needs an arsenal in his room and the age of weapons should be lifted IMO. Or, go join the military.

[Chi-Town]

b

Silly. If he had a handgun or a hunting rifle, kids would still have been killed. The NRA had ZERO responsibility for those deaths. Inept FBI and untrained cowardly law enforcement have blood and deaths on their hands.

You know jack I think you're off a little by not acknowledging that fewer kids would have been killed.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[Steve9930]

I totally agree Steve. Things happening too fast for teens to process. I think the amount of Pornography studies say they watch from a young age is very sad. It desensitizes them. There was a whole article about it in the NY Post recently. They come out with a very wrong outlook on the reality of things.

With that said no 18 year old needs an arsenal in his room and the age of weapons should be lifted IMO. Or, go join the military.

Yep, could not agree more. Its called brain washing. Expose a human mind to a constant diet of violence, pornography, and constant drama among themselves is not going to end well for some. Now do that to a teen who's body is a raging hormone machine and bang. Things can go wrong. Not some one I want to have access to firearms unsupervised.

[GoodLife]

You know jack I think you're off a little by not acknowledging that fewer kids would have been killed.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Not really, you can fire bullets just as fast with a Glock pistol as you can with an AR 15

Here's Jerry Miculek firing 60 bullets in 5 seconds using 2 Glock 17s

glock vs ar 15 rapid fire - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=glock+vs+ar+15+rapid+fire&qpvt=glock+vs+ar+15+rapid+fire&view=detail&mid=8E910B422CC07E5843528E910B422CC07E584352&&FORM=VRDGAR)

[villagerjack]

You know jack I think you're off a little by not acknowledging that fewer kids would have been killed.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

You don’t know that. Point is that the NRA was not responsible for a single death so why are they being attacked instead of people who could have prevented it but didn’t? Incompetent, Cowardly law enforcement at all levels and the School District have blood and death on their hands and not the NRA or the Dog Catcher.

[Chi-Town]

Not really, you can fire bullets just as fast with a Glock pistol as you can with an AR 15

Here's Jerry Miculek firing 60 bullets in 5 seconds using 2 Glock 17s

glock vs ar 15 rapid fire - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=glock+vs+ar+15+rapid+fire&qpvt=glock+vs+ar+15+rapid+fire&view=detail&mid=8E910B422CC07E5843528E910B422CC07E584352&&FORM=VRDGAR)Like Drew Peterson said "Nothing says I love you like a Glock."

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[Miles42]

no law will prevent further violence.Laws are guide lines for honest people. They never prevent crime

[Kenswing]

Why is it that some people want to blame everything/everyone except the shooter?

[GoodLife]

Like Drew Peterson said "Nothing says I love you like a Glock."

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Not sure what that comment means but I hope you understand that ANY semi automatic rifle, shotgun or handgun can fire bullets just as fast as an AR 15.

If somehow the AR 15 was banned, and all 16 million of them were confiscated, the crazies would just switch to another platform.

Here is a completely legal gun that is scarier than the AR 15

Fostech Origin 12 Shotgun

74151

Load the 30 round magazine with 000 Buckshot shells and you can mow down a crowd very fast

[Steve9930]

Not sure what that comment means but I hope you understand that ANY semi automatic rifle, shotgun or handgun can fire bullets just as fast as an AR 15.

If somehow the AR 15 was banned, and all 16 million of them were confiscated, the crazies would just switch to another platform.

Here is a completely legal gun that is scarier than the AR 15

Fostech Origin 12 Shotgun

74151

Load the 30 round magazine with 000 Buckshot shells and you can mow down a crowd very fast

You will never confiscate 16 million AR-15's. They will go under ground. Secondly, you can build one of these rifles in the privacy of your home. There are people now manufacturing what are called Ghost Guns. You can buy the equipment at a reasonable cost over the internet. The magazines can be 3D printed. I also believe that a confiscation would be shot down because of the 2nd Amendment. I can imagine AR-15's being made a class 3 weapon.

[GoodLife]

You will never confiscate 16 million AR-15's. They will go under ground. Secondly, you can build one of these rifles in the privacy of your home. There are people now manufacturing what are called Ghost Guns. You can buy the equipment at a reasonable cost over the internet. The magazines can be 3D printed. I also believe that a confiscation would be shot down because of the 2nd Amendment. I can imagine AR-15's being made a class 3 weapon.

Totally agree. Feel good gun ban laws are useless. Horse has left the barn. Harden vulnerable targets like schools, and demand that law enforcement agencies actually enforce laws on the books.

Broward County Sheriff Israel will soon be spending more time with his family.

Gov. Rick Scott has ordered an investigation into response to Florida shooting

Florida Speaker of the House Richard Corcoran and dozens of lawmakers have called on Scott to suspend Israel for "incompetence and dereliction of duty."

Gov. Rick Scott has ordered an investigation into response to Florida shooting (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/msn/gov-rick-scott-has-ordered-an-investigation-into-response-to-florida-shooting/ar-BBJyXWc)

[ColdNoMore]

I have no idea if your accusations are true or not, and suspect that you do not either.

I just know that never saw activist kids being accused of such things as...

.....Being paid actors
.....Being paid pawns of a rich liberal
.....Being children of FBI agents who are "running cover for them", a continuing attack on law enforcement
.....Being uninformed and not "smart" enough to carry this fight.

All of these things have been part of a series of conspiracy theories put out there by the normal extreme right wing conspiracy groups and websites.

Pretty darn sad, in my opinion, that we would attack these kids like this without so much as one single item showing or allowing for a basis to make these charges.

We have elected officials and relatives tweeting and forwarding this stuff all over the place.

I always felt it was a good thing when young people spoke up and said what was on their mind.

For the record....I do not own a gun, and actually have no strong opinions one way or another because it is ALL politics now and has nothing to do with the safety of children or anyone else.

Nailed it! :bigbow:


It's pretty sad to think that there are those who actually believe that high school kids aren't smart or brave enough, to stand up to make their voices heard...and are only doing it because they're being manipulated by supposed 'adults.' :oops:


In my opinion, the students are showing much more 'maturity'...than the adults spreading these false rumors. :ohdear:

[Kenswing]

Those kids will be exploited for political gain whether they are mature or not. Whether they are willing or not.

[Polar Bear]

...it is ALL politics now and has nothing to do with the safety of children or anyone else.
I know our politicians and many others are far from saints, but “ALL politics”?!?

What a cynical attitude.

[Nucky]

I don't remember if you recall this name, Joe Clark, Principal of East Side High School in Paterson N.J. A movie was made about his experience trying to get an inner city school under control in the 80's. The movie was called Lean On Me. I knew this man when he was a guidance counselor before he was promoted to Principal. He truly had his staff and children's best interest at heart. He was one tough SOB.

A teacher was raped in the stairwell, drug dealers roamed the hallways and this was truly a case where the inmates took over the asylum. All the press and attention did change this man and not for the better but the important thing was he was trying to change the culture and was met with resistance at every turn. He chained the doors locked and his own crew of goons walked the hallway with Baseball Bats and he spoke thru a Bullhorn. The kids who attended that school learned about respect for the first time in their lives at High School age.

The summer that they tapped the movie Lean On Me was memorable. Hollywood types actually came in the school and spread garbage and graffiti where they were filming and I remember how hot it was in that school and Mr. Clark was on the film's staff as an advisor to see that the film was realistically filmed. I wonder what would have happened if his culture was allowed to thrive and spread to other schools. After a short time, you felt safe in that school and he was in the hallway with his Bat and Bullhorn at each class change. Some of the children had no one but him to care for them. They were not properly cared for at home including not being fed on a regular basis. I wonder what his school is like now?

We had the Copy Machine, Mimeograph, Spirit Duplicator contract with the district and were friendly with most of the teachers. They hated him in the beginning but most loved him in the end, he was one tough man and took no garbage from anyone. I wonder how he would handle this gun situation?

I'm not saying he never used it but I don't think he ever smacked anyone with the bat, a very unconventional man who once locked the front door to keep the Board of Education Officials from HIS School. I think he was on to something.

[Taltarzac725]

Neat story Nucky. Lean on Me (film - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_on_Me_(film)))

One of my various sister-in-laws or ex sister-in-laws experienced the events described in this movie. Remember the Titans - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remember_the_Titans)

[DeanFL]

Just read this... I so DO NOT agree with this knee-jerk opinion. My heart goes out to all students/people affected by this horrendous event. BUT...why spread the grief to others who would be impacted in our tourism economy??? Makes no sense to me.

PARKLAND SCHOOL SHOOTING SURVIVOR ASKS TOURISTS TO BOYCOTT FLORIDA UNTIL GUN REFORM PASSES

PARKLAND, Fla. - David Hogg, a survivor of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Parkland, Florida, is now calling for tourists to boycott Florida during spring break to raise awareness for gun control.

“Let’s make a deal DO NOT come to Florida for spring break unless gun legislation is passed,” Hogg tweeted to more than 280,000 followers. “These politions [sic] won’t listen to us so maybe the’ll listen to the billion dollar tourism industry in FL."

According to WTVJ, Hogg said in a video that tourists shouldn’t come to Florida for spring break or summer vacations, saying, “How can you expect people from across the nation and the world to come to South Florida if we can’t guarantee their safety because of the inaction of these politicians? I understand there will be economic ramifications from this, but that is only if these politicians refuse to take quick and swift action to resolve these gun issues.”
Hogg also suggested that tourists instead go to Puerto Rico, tweeting, “It’s a beautiful place with amazing people. They could really use the economic support that the government has failed to provide.”

[Steve9930]

Just read this... I so DO NOT agree with this knee-jerk opinion. My heart goes out to all students/people affected by this horrendous event. BUT...why spread the grief to others who would be impacted in our tourism economy??? Makes no sense to me.

PARKLAND SCHOOL SHOOTING SURVIVOR ASKS TOURISTS TO BOYCOTT FLORIDA UNTIL GUN REFORM PASSES

PARKLAND, Fla. - David Hogg, a survivor of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Parkland, Florida, is now calling for tourists to boycott Florida during spring break to raise awareness for gun control.

“Let’s make a deal DO NOT come to Florida for spring break unless gun legislation is passed,” Hogg tweeted to more than 280,000 followers. “These politions [sic] won’t listen to us so maybe the’ll listen to the billion dollar tourism industry in FL."

According to WTVJ, Hogg said in a video that tourists shouldn’t come to Florida for spring break or summer vacations, saying, “How can you expect people from across the nation and the world to come to South Florida if we can’t guarantee their safety because of the inaction of these politicians? I understand there will be economic ramifications from this, but that is only if these politicians refuse to take quick and swift action to resolve these gun issues.”
Hogg also suggested that tourists instead go to Puerto Rico, tweeting, “It’s a beautiful place with amazing people. They could really use the economic support that the government has failed to provide.”

This what I meant when I said:"legislation driven by emotion never ends up solving anything". There's a problem and creating another problem is not the answer. Good intentions can cause negative reactions.

[Taltarzac725]

Just read this... I so DO NOT agree with this knee-jerk opinion. My heart goes out to all students/people affected by this horrendous event. BUT...why spread the grief to others who would be impacted in our tourism economy??? Makes no sense to me.

PARKLAND SCHOOL SHOOTING SURVIVOR ASKS TOURISTS TO BOYCOTT FLORIDA UNTIL GUN REFORM PASSES

PARKLAND, Fla. - David Hogg, a survivor of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Parkland, Florida, is now calling for tourists to boycott Florida during spring break to raise awareness for gun control.

“Let’s make a deal DO NOT come to Florida for spring break unless gun legislation is passed,” Hogg tweeted to more than 280,000 followers. “These politions [sic] won’t listen to us so maybe the’ll listen to the billion dollar tourism industry in FL."

According to WTVJ, Hogg said in a video that tourists shouldn’t come to Florida for spring break or summer vacations, saying, “How can you expect people from across the nation and the world to come to South Florida if we can’t guarantee their safety because of the inaction of these politicians? I understand there will be economic ramifications from this, but that is only if these politicians refuse to take quick and swift action to resolve these gun issues.”
Hogg also suggested that tourists instead go to Puerto Rico, tweeting, “It’s a beautiful place with amazing people. They could really use the economic support that the government has failed to provide.”

That is not going to work. Doubt if many people take up this Spring Break boycott.

I do feel for these kids though and the others affected by this horrible experience for all involved.

[Abby10]

This what I meant when I said:"legislation driven by emotion never ends up solving anything". There's a problem and creating another problem is not the answer. Good intentions can cause negative reactions.

Amen to all you say here!

[Steve9930]

Here is another item we all should keep in mind as this unfolds, and this not to say Sheriffs are all bad, Sheriffs are elected officials. I need not say more.

[GoodLife]

PARKLAND, FLA. (WSVN) - A student who was at school during the time of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas said he saw School Resource Deputy Scot Peterson sit by and do nothing.

“He’s the only one with a gun,” Huff said. “He’s wearing a bullet proof vest, he has all that while school security guards, coaches were running in shielding kids — Coach Feis, Hixon were running in, shielding kids from bullets and losing their lives while he did nothing.”


Student to Stoneman Douglas officer: ‘You could have saved a lot of lives’ – WSVN 7News | Miami News, Weather, Sports | Fort Lauderdale (https://wsvn.com/news/local/student-to-stoneman-douglas-officer-you-could-have-saved-a-lot-of-lives/)

Was 'Cowardly' Fla. Deputy Told to Wait for Backup?

According to USA Today, Israel was asked by a reporter “whether his deputies were told to wait for SWAT officers before going into the building.” Israel said he didn’t know anything about that and moved on to another question. He did not respond to a direct follow-up by USA Today.

Was 'Cowardly' Fla. Deputy Told to Wait for Backup? | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/02/26/was_cowardly_fla_deputy_told_to_wait_for_backup_13 6368.html)

[My Post]

Can the Gov even fire the Sheriff if he wants to? How do you fire an elected official? Impeach, maybe, I guess. Recall? Something. BC that would leave him open to being able to fire elected officials for whatever reason, technically.

[Steve9930]

Can the Gov even fire the Sheriff if he wants to? How do you fire an elected official? Impeach, maybe, I guess. Recall? Something. BC that would leave him open to being able to fire elected officials for whatever reason, technically.

Just saw a report by a Florida Congressman about what can be done with the Sheriff. He said, Under the Florida Constitution, the Governor, could suspend the Sheriff and appoint a temporary replacement. The Florida Senate would then decide whether to re-instate the Sheriff, or remove him from office.

[My Post]

Ah, interesting.

[DeanFL]

I'm a simple man and will make this short:

1. Why is it OK for an 18-21 year old to buy a rifle but not handgun? New law = 21 for all firearms. period

2. Background checks and waiting period = Abide by the Federal laws to a T. Strengthen the alerts re Mental/psychological issues. Strong responsive local/state/fed databases and closed-loop system for 'Say Something' reporting. Hold people accountable.

3. Entry points to schools - must be hardened and monitored.

4. Allow highly trained/certified school staff/teachers access to safely secured guns in key areas within the school.

ps. Fire Sheriff Israel today for dereliction of duty.

No simple solutions of course, but this time = DO SOMETHING substantial. We will never be completely safe against a crazed gunman anywhere, but should increase our defense...and offense.

[Steve9930]

DeanFl, Amen........ Pretty simple. Why can the people figure this out but not the Politicians?

[Taltarzac725]

Still wonder if teachers who are under fire would be able to hit anything? Many combat veterans think arming teachers is a bad idea. If the teacher is a combat veteran that would be OK but otherwise.... And you might have to worry about a combat veteran teacher too if he or she has had a lot of traumatic events in his or her life.

Is Arming Teachers a Good Idea? - Veterans Talk Arming Teachers (https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a18698737/what-veterans-say-about-arming-teachers/)

We talk all the time about how teachers are dealing with things on a day-to-day basis that require extra levels of empathy. You know what requires no empathy? Shooting another human being. We’d be forcing teachers to go to great lengths to dehumanize their own students.

If you have been in a life threatening situation-- I have been in several such as 4 cars spinning out of control and an attempted carjacking-- it is hard to think clearly at that time. Unless you have a lot of training for that kind of action.

Also had a "friend" put a BB into my left pinky after initially pointing the BB gun at my left eye. I convinced him to try shooting between my fingers rather than shooting my eye out. He missed the space between my fingers. I squeezed the BB out of my pinky. That was the start of my journey away from these "friends" I hung around when about 15.

It is hard to think when you have a gun pointed at you even if in my case it was just a BB gun. It could easily have taken my eye out though.

[billethkid]

Sufficient training is supposed to replace/reduce the thinking part of the equation....which works for the majority of those trained...properly.

[Taltarzac725]

Sufficient training is supposed to replace/reduce the thinking part of the equation....which works for the majority of those trained...properly.

Is someone ever shooting back in these training situations?

I do know people I would expect would be able to handle themselves very well in a firefight but the average teacher is not one of them.

[billethkid]

Why are there not more suggestions for making it more difficult or stop an unwanted intruder in a school.

Seems like too many are too focused on the gun aspect and not giving enough attention to other defense measures.

All classroom doors locked while class is in session.
All entry doors to the school locked during the day.
Have only one door that is managed for allowing either entry or departure.
Shooter on the property notification to be a loud and disturbing alarm.
To name a few.

Places like TV that are noted for their volunteering...start a volunteer guard force made up of retired military, fire, police....to patrol/monitor school property and hall ways....yes armed.

And for this creative thinking request there is no negative commentary on anybody's suggestions.....objective is to create a list of possible actions.....some of which will be incorporated....that will MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Expecting the resolve to come from a hot bed political driven subject like guns.....is pretty much a waste of time.

What is it we the people can come up with that can be incorporated tomorrow....without politics....or special interest meddling?

[Taltarzac725]

Why are there not more suggestions for making it more difficult or stop an unwanted intruder in a school.

Seems like too many are too focused on the gun aspect and not giving enough attention to other defense measures.

All classroom doors locked while class is in session.
All entry doors to the school locked during the day.
Have only one door that is managed for allowing either entry or departure.
Shooter on the property notification to be a loud and disturbing alarm.
To name a few.

Places like TV that are noted for their volunteering...start a volunteer guard force made up of retired military, fire, police....to patrol/monitor school property and hall ways....yes armed.

And for this creative thinking request there is no negative commentary on anybody's suggestions.....objective is to create a list of possible actions.....some of which will be incorporated....that will MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Expecting the resolve to come from a hot bed political driven subject like guns.....is pretty much a waste of time.

What is it we the people can come up with that can be incorporated tomorrow....without politics....or special interest meddling?

Volunteer armed hall monitors. Google it.

[graciegirl]

Why are there not more suggestions for making it more difficult or stop an unwanted intruder in a school.

Seems like too many are too focused on the gun aspect and not giving enough attention to other defense measures.

All classroom doors locked while class is in session.
All entry doors to the school locked during the day.
Have only one door that is managed for allowing either entry or departure.
Shooter on the property notification to be a loud and disturbing alarm.
To name a few.

Places like TV that are noted for their volunteering...start a volunteer guard force made up of retired military, fire, police....to patrol/monitor school property and hall ways....yes armed.

And for this creative thinking request there is no negative commentary on anybody's suggestions.....objective is to create a list of possible actions.....some of which will be incorporated....that will MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Expecting the resolve to come from a hot bed political driven subject like guns.....is pretty much a waste of time.

What is it we the people can come up with that can be incorporated tomorrow....without politics....or special interest meddling?

Excellent post, from someone who has been a well respected person for a long time because he worked hard, and played by the rules.

[Taltarzac725]

These are the victims of the Florida school shooting - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/florida-shooting-victims-school/index.html)

Let's remember the victims/survivors of the Parkland shooting and what they went through. And try to have some empathy with the kids in schools now who have to live with the real possibility that there might be yet another shooting. Empathy though is the most important and not who has the most guns on campuses. Do not see more guns in schools as creating an atmosphere of learning. That sounds like a prison but guards have the keys to gun rooms they do not carry firearms. Why? Because prisoners might take these weapons away and use them on the guards and prison staff.

Schools should be teaching everything but the gun culture we have in America.

Some areas of the country are deeply connected with this gun culture so they might reasonable take another approach.

Talk to teachers and students you know about what they want to happen? Fewer accessible guns due to mental health checks, locks on guns in home put on by parents, sales restrictions of certain types of guns, stopping of manufacturing of certain guns, aggressive parenting, mental health systems in schools at all levels, etc.

[billethkid]

These are the victims of the Florida school shooting - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/florida-shooting-victims-school/index.html)

Let's remember the victims/survivors of the Parkland shooting and what they went through. And try to empathy with the kids in schools now who have to live with the real possibility that there might be yet another shooting. Empathy though is the most important and not who has the most guns on campuses. Do not see more guns in schools as creating an atmosphere of learning. That sounds like a prison but guards have the keys to gun rooms they do not carry firearms. Why? Because prisoners might take these weapons away and use them on the guards and prison staff.

Schools should be teaching everything but the gun culture we have in America.

Some areas of the country are deeply connected with this gun culture so they might reasonable take another approach.

Talk to teachers and students you know about what they want to happen? Fewer accessible guns due to mental health checks, locks on guns in home put on by parents, sales restrictions of certain types of guns, stopping of manufacturing of certain guns, aggressive parenting, mental health systems in schools at all levels, etc.

The politics of guns, where made, where sold, in what state, etc, etc, as in the past is a deterrent to getting any meaningful legislation beyond what is already on the books.

I will re-iterate that there is much more that can be done to protect the citizens that does not involve the gun, specifically.

The so called "gun culture" is more like an urban legend.
Many of us grew up in areas where hunting and shooting sports were a significant part of family life. Of course in our days guns were not the political pawns as they are today.

Reasonable people doing and suggesting reasonable checks and balances can get much more done than politicians. History provides testimonial to the fact politician are incapable of providing solutions to the REAL issues.

[sajoe]

Things we should all agree on: this was every parents nightmare, the person that did this had a tragic life, should of had help and should never had a gun. Unfortunately, to address these issues an unemotional and unpolitical evaluation must be done and this is less possible now than ever. A few points to keep in mind: there was violence before firearms and will exist as long as there are people, our laws are based on crime and punishment and innocent until proven guilty and these basics no longer seem to apply, when I was growing up the choice of mass murderers was arson, fully automatic (assault weapons) and semi automatic weapons have been in existence for about 120 years so why are they so abused now? what good is more laws that the people are not willing to enforce?

[Taltarzac725]

Things we should all agree on: this was every parents nightmare, the person that did this had a tragic life, should of had help and should never had a gun. Unfortunately, to address these issues an unemotional and unpolitical evaluation must be done and this is less possible now than ever. A few points to keep in mind: there was violence before firearms and will exist as long as there are people, our laws are based on crime and punishment and innocent until proven guilty and these basics no longer seem to apply, when I was growing up the choice of mass murderers was arson, fully automatic (assault weapons) and semi automatic weapons have been in existence for about 120 years so why are they so abused now? what good is more laws that the people are not willing to enforce?

Very few people had access to what would have been in the 1917 described as machine guns. There was a horrible war then where many people were at an impasse because of how many machine guns were available to the various sides. machine gun | History, Description, & Facts | Britannica.com (https://www.britannica.com/technology/machine-gun)

The History of Machine Guns and Semi-automatic Weapons - What's the difference between a semi-automatic weapon and a machine gun? | HowStuffWorks (https://science.howstuffworks.com/semi-automatic-weapon-vs-machine-gun1.htm)

[graciegirl]

Very few people had access to what would have been in the 1917 described as machine guns. There was a horrible war then where many people were at an impasse because of how many machine guns were available to the various sides. machine gun | History, Description, & Facts | Britannica.com (https://www.britannica.com/technology/machine-gun)

The History of Machine Guns and Semi-automatic Weapons - What's the difference between a semi-automatic weapon and a machine gun? | HowStuffWorks (https://science.howstuffworks.com/semi-automatic-weapon-vs-machine-gun1.htm)

It is more horrible to have a child die than to die yourself. There should be NO stone left unturned and no expense spared to protect our nations students from ever letting this happen again. There should be all reasonable scenarios on the table. By reasonable, I would like to know what plans someone would have who suggests disarming unethical law breakers who have NO conscience. It is already illegal to use drugs. It certainly has not stopped drugs from being widely used and thousands of people dying from heroin
overdose in the last few years.

I think we need to move on to having guards who know how to use firearms and are decent law abiding people.

[Steve9930]

Columbine, April 20, 1999. Columbine High School massacre - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre). This story is the same for every incident. Some one always knows something, the individuals are mentally ill, and get their inspiration from society. Harden the targets and live each day as if some one is in the planing stage. If we do not then its just a matter of time.

[billethkid]

Columbine, April 20, 1999. Columbine High School massacre - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre). This story is the same for every incident. Some one always knows something, the individuals are mentally ill, and get their inspiration from society. Harden the targets and live each day as if some one is in the planing stage. If we do not then its just a matter of time.

And the jack jawing about needing to do something is the same. And as history has shown there will be nothing of consequence accomplished by the politicians and special interest folks.....again.

[Taltarzac725]

And the jack jawing about needing to do something is the same. And as history has shown there will be nothing of consequence accomplished by the politicians and special interest folks.....again.

I believe this is wrong. Something will happen this time around. You have a very large group of activists who remember just that. Columbine did not change much of anything. Nor did Sandy Hook. But there is a new group of people involved who are determined that change will happen. They are Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Skype, and other internet tool savvy.

[Wiotte]

I believe this is wrong. Something will happen this time around. You have a very large group of activists who remember just that. Columbine did not change much of anything. Nor did Sandy Hook. But there is a new group of people involved who are determined that change will happen. They are Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Skype, and other internet tool savvy.



These kids will soon devote their time and effort into getting into a good college. The 60’s are over. Unfortunately, too many distractions in today’s society for any idealist movement to take root. Follow the money, there you will find our future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kenswing]

I believe this is wrong. Something will happen this time around. You have a very large group of activists who remember just that. Columbine did not change much of anything. Nor did Sandy Hook. But there is a new group of people involved who are determined that change will happen. They are Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Skype, and other internet tool savvy.
Something might get done for the sake of getting something done. But it isn't likely to change anything.

It's really hard to change a culture and right now we have a culture where people with problems feel that violence is the answer. Until we can somehow change that culture you can create all the new laws and restrictions you want and NOTHING will change.

[Cisco Kid]

Just read this... I so DO NOT agree with this knee-jerk opinion. My heart goes out to all students/people affected by this horrendous event. BUT...why spread the grief to others who would be impacted in our tourism economy??? Makes no sense to me.

PARKLAND SCHOOL SHOOTING SURVIVOR ASKS TOURISTS TO BOYCOTT FLORIDA UNTIL GUN REFORM PASSES

PARKLAND, Fla. - David Hogg, a survivor of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Parkland, Florida, is now calling for tourists to boycott Florida during spring break to raise awareness for gun control.

“Let’s make a deal DO NOT come to Florida for spring break unless gun legislation is passed,” Hogg tweeted to more than 280,000 followers. “These politions [sic] won’t listen to us so maybe the’ll listen to the billion dollar tourism industry in FL."

According to WTVJ, Hogg said in a video that tourists shouldn’t come to Florida for spring break or summer vacations, saying, “How can you expect people from across the nation and the world to come to South Florida if we can’t guarantee their safety because of the inaction of these politicians? I understand there will be economic ramifications from this, but that is only if these politicians refuse to take quick and swift action to resolve these gun issues.”
Hogg also suggested that tourists instead go to Puerto Rico, tweeting, “It’s a beautiful place with amazing people. They could really use the economic support that the government has failed to provide.”

Yes Pass a bunch of useless feel good gun laws, that will only effect the law-abiding. Florida can become Chicago South. Good luck with that. And like Chicago the media will not even report on the rapid growth in crime / murder . ( unless they kill a pack of whites ) Never let a crisis go to waste, that you can blame on your political foe for, of boycott there supporters
Chicago is a 100% gun free zone. The same week as the Parkland shooting, Chicago had one. 6 dead, 22 wounded. They will likely hit 700 + for the year. Where is the media out cry.

[DeanFL]

A few points this morning from NEWS.

- The killer's gun jammed and he had to quit shooting, threw the gun down. Had 150 more rounds of unspent ammo. Tried to shoot out a 3rd floor window in the school to do a "Vegas-like" thing, unable due to hurricane-proof glass.

- Dick's sporting goods will no longer sell "Assault-style guns" and hi capacity magazines. And will only sell firearms to 21+.

- Many FL Sheriffs and local school boards/town boards NOT supporting teachers to carry or have access to guns.

My opinions #1> PHEW. #2 Good for them. #3 Do NOT agree with this.

ps. BTW--- why do I feel that I want to sample shooting a real gun? I never have, but would have one in the house if we lived in an area where I felt the need for home protection. I have a friend who has a few weapons - locked in a gun safe. I may take him up on his offer to go to a shooting range. Have no idea why I feel the 'need' now. Perhaps a stupid Bucket List thing.

[Taltarzac725]

A few points this morning from NEWS.

- The killer's gun jammed and he had to quit shooting, threw the gun down. Had 150 more rounds of unspent ammo. Tried to shoot out a 3rd floor window in the school to do a "Vegas-like" thing, unable due to hurricane-proof glass.

- Dick's sporting goods will no longer sell "Assault-style guns" and hi capacity magazines. And will only sell firearms to 21+.

- Many FL Sheriffs and local school boards/town boards NOT supporting teachers to carry or have access to guns.

My opinions #1> PHEW. #2 Good for them. #3 Do NOT agree with this.

And they are meeting to talk about this. :bigbow:

[billethkid]

The intentions of the kids and anybody else are not in question.

When all gets said and done the proposals will have to be presented to lawmakers (POLITICIANS). The process then loses it's momentum as proposals affect personal re-election status, special interest and minority groups.
Eventually winding down to a halt.

Or something meaningless that affects nothing will be passed.....eye wash!!

[Steve9930]

There is plenty of time to debate how to go forward when it concerns guns, mental health, and whether a teacher will be armed (the teacher argument should be left up to the individual teacher. No one as ever suggested ALL teachers be armed). Now the real problem today, the schools are still vulnerable, let me say that again, the schools are still vulnerable...... So what has been changed to "Harden the Target" since Feb 14th?????????? While the politicians are still arguing, the people are still protesting, the schools are still vulnerable and some nut job out there, somewhere, is planning. Why is that so hard to understand? Its like, the house is on fire and we are all standing there arguing how it started. Pick up the hose and put the fire out.......

[GoodLife]

There are more than 66 investigations by the Broward County State Attorney’s office into Broward County Sheriff’s deputies and employees, ranging from drug trafficking to kidnapping since 2012. All the internal investigations occurred under embattled Sheriff Scott Israel’s watch, whose office is now under investigation for allegations that his deputies failed to allow first responders from treating patients at the scene of Stoneman Douglas High School shooting on Feb. 14, and that multiple deputies failed to enter the school to defend the children during the rampage that left 17 people dead, this reporter has learned.

Broward State Attorney's Opened At Least 66 Cases Of Criminal Misconduct Into Sheriff's Office | Sara A. Carter (https://saraacarter.com/broward-county-state-attorney-investigating-66-cases-misconduct-sheriff-israel/)

Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi on Monday refused to reveal why four Broward County deputies reportedly failed to confront a shooter at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

While speaking to Fox & Friends, Bondi explained that Gov. Rick Scott had called for a “full investigation” of Sheriff Scott Israel and the Broward County Sheriff’s Department.

“I know a lot more than you all do now so all I’m going to say is, yes, I believe there needs to be a full investigation,” she said. “I don’t think some people were honest and we’re going to investigate this situation in Florida and the right thing will be done.

Bondi later suggested that some of members of the Broward Sheriff’s Department “weren’t honest with me, nor were they honest with the governor.”

“Why wouldn’t they be honest,” co-host Ainsley Earhardt asked.
“Well, if they were there and didn’t want people to know they were there, that could have been it,” Bondi revealed. “But I’m not going to discuss farther.”

Pam Bondi Won’t Say If There Was ‘Stand Down Order’ For Broward Deputies | Crooks and Liars (https://crooksandliars.com/2018/02/pam-bondi-won-t-say-if-there-was-stand)

Americans Blame Government More Than Guns for Florida Massacre

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 54% of American Adults believe the failure of government agencies to respond to numerous warning signs from the prospective killer is more to blame for the mass shooting. Thirty-three percent (33%) attribute the deaths more to a lack of adequate gun control. Eleven percent (11%) opt for something else.

Americans Blame Government More Than Guns for Florida Massacre - Rasmussen Reports(R) (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/gun_control/americans_blame_government_more_than_guns_for_flor ida_massacre)

[billethkid]

There is plenty of time to debate how to go forward when it concerns guns, mental health, and whether a teacher will be armed (the teacher argument should be left up to the individual teacher. No one as ever suggested ALL teachers be armed). Now the real problem today, the schools are still vulnerable, let me say that again, the schools are still vulnerable...... So what has been changed to "Harden the Target" since Feb 14th?????????? While the politicians are still arguing, the people are still protesting, the schools are still vulnerable and some nut job out there, somewhere, is planning. Why is that so hard to understand? Its like, the house is on fire and we are all standing there arguing how it started. Pick up the hose and put the fire out.......

Concisely stating the problem (highlighted above).

WHY? Do so many believe the solution(s) are the problem for the politicians?

What have we the people, especially the parents of school children done to make their school safe?
For starters they need to stop mindlessly referring to the problem as a gun problem.
Then decide what is it that can be done TODAY that will make the schools safer than they were today?
The problem does not require politicians to "harden the target".

[Cisco Kid]

Dick's sporting goods will no longer sell "Assault-style guns" and hi capacity magazines.

I would bet less that 2 percent of shooting involve this type of gun. But the media love them. The Dick is choosing what weapon of death not to profit off of for some cheap advertisement .Or they would stop selling hand guns, that kill the most, then knives. And all the guns the kill the innocent animals . Then the items used to kill all the fish. The store is a death factory.

[GoodLife]

Concisely stating the problem (highlighted above).

WHY? Do so many believe the solution(s) are the problem for the politicians?

What have we the people, especially the parents of school children done to make their school safe?
For starters they need to stop mindlessly referring to the problem as a gun problem.
Then decide what is it that can be done TODAY that will make the schools safer than they were today?
The problem does not require politicians to "harden the target".

I don't think you have thought this through. Lets say that I, a private citizen, decide to personally take steps to "harden" the local school.

Step 1. I assemble all my guns, drive to nearest school and let Principal know I am there to protect the students. "Where should I set up?"

Step 2. I assemble all my tools, go to Loews and charge $100,000 worth of bullet proof windows and doors and go to the nearest school and begin installation.

Step 3. I go to nearest gun store, buy a bunch of Glocks then proceed to nearest school and present them to each teacher.

In any of these scenarios I end up making my next post from a jail cell.

There are hundreds of thousands of schools in the USA, to harden them all will cost trillions of dollars. This means taxes, government, and politicians will be involved.

[Kenswing]

Dick's sporting goods will no longer sell "Assault-style guns" and hi capacity magazines.

I would bet less that 2 percent of shooting involve this type of gun. But the media love them. The Dick is choosing what weapon of death not to profit off of for some cheap advertisement .Or they would stop selling hand guns, that kill the most, then knives. And all the guns the kill the innocent animals . Then the items used to kill all the fish. The store is a death factory.
Dick's also stopped selling AR-15's after Sandy Hook. How many times are they going to stop selling them?

I stopped buying at Dick's years ago.

[GoodLife]

Several officers from the neighboring Coral Springs Police Department have told reporters that when they arrived on the scene, deputies from Broward County were standing outside. They claim that they were the first to enter the school after the shooting began.

Our sources near the Broward County Sheriff's Department are telling us that the deputies who arrived at the scene of the shooting were told not to enter the school unless their body cameras were turned on," Ingraham said on Monday night. "And then, we found out that the deputies did not have body cameras. So, they did not enter the building, or engage the shooter.

"Curiously, the police also lost radio communications during the Parkland shooting," Ingraham went on. "Our source claims that radio communication also went dead during the Fort Lauderdale Airport shooting in 2017, that he (Israel) also got a lot of criticism for.

Broward Deputies Reportedly Told Not to Enter School Without Body Cams (http://popculture.com/trending/2018/02/27/broward-deputies-body-cameras-parkland-told-not-to-enter-school/)

Sheriff Israel is in a heap of trouble.

[GoodLife]

How Authorities Failed To Stop School Shooter Nikolas Cruz
After missing warning signs, law enforcement and others are now quick to say they need more power to stop the next tragedy
How can the senseless killing of 17 people at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, be made even more tragic and disturbing? By realizing that it could have and should have been prevented by existing authorities using current laws and policies.


The discourse in the wake of the shooting has mostly been about all the new laws we need to prevent such horrors from happening again—increased ages for rifle purchases, a ban on bump stocks, prohibition of "assault weapons" and semi-automatics, easier ways to commit mentally ill people, and more. But the plain, awful truth is that law enforcement and other agencies had all the information and power they needed. Yet the authorities failed to act both during the shooting itself and in the months and years leading up to it. Creating new programs and laws, many of which have little if no relevance to mass shootings or crime in general, will do absolutely nothing to cure official incompetence and indifference.

How Authorities Failed To Stop School Shooter Nikolas Cruz - Hit & Run : Reason.com (https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/27/how-authorities-failed-to-stop-school-sh)

[My Post]

Dick's also stopped selling AR-15's after Sandy Hook. How many times are they going to stop selling them?


And then opened a new store called "Field&Stream" that continued selling them!!!!

Can't make that up.

[billethkid]

I don't think you have thought this through. Lets say that I, a private citizen, decide to personally take steps to "harden" the local school.

Step 1. I assemble all my guns, drive to nearest school and let Principal know I am there to protect the students. "Where should I set up?"

Step 2. I assemble all my tools, go to Loews and charge $100,000 worth of bullet proof windows and doors and go to the nearest school and begin installation.

Step 3. I go to nearest gun store, buy a bunch of Glocks then proceed to nearest school and present them to each teacher.

In any of these scenarios I end up making my next post from a jail cell.

There are hundreds of thousands of schools in the USA, to harden them all will cost trillions of dollars. This means taxes, government, and politicians will be involved.

I did not intimate that I had thought it through.
I merely suggest the parents and administrators and any other interested parties meet to determine what can be done.

Nothing is an unacceptable answer before meeting.
Worrying about what the other thousands of schools may or may not do does not affect what we would do here locally.

If the parents do not seize the initiative then nothing will get done as in the past.

To even think about a nation wide solution is not practical. Just observe the political grid lock in Washington.

Until those invested take the initiative to problem solve THEIR school....life in school will go on as usual with nothing done....again.

I do not subscribe to or support any position that states nothing can be done.

[My Post]

I do not subscribe to or support any position that states nothing can be done.

What about for terminally ill medical patients?

[Steve9930]

How Authorities Failed To Stop School Shooter Nikolas Cruz
After missing warning signs, law enforcement and others are now quick to say they need more power to stop the next tragedy
How can the senseless killing of 17 people at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, be made even more tragic and disturbing? By realizing that it could have and should have been prevented by existing authorities using current laws and policies.


The discourse in the wake of the shooting has mostly been about all the new laws we need to prevent such horrors from happening again—increased ages for rifle purchases, a ban on bump stocks, prohibition of "assault weapons" and semi-automatics, easier ways to commit mentally ill people, and more. But the plain, awful truth is that law enforcement and other agencies had all the information and power they needed. Yet the authorities failed to act both during the shooting itself and in the months and years leading up to it. Creating new programs and laws, many of which have little if no relevance to mass shootings or crime in general, will do absolutely nothing to cure official incompetence and indifference.

How Authorities Failed To Stop School Shooter Nikolas Cruz - Hit & Run : Reason.com (https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/27/how-authorities-failed-to-stop-school-sh)

Hence one of the reasons for the 2nd Amendment. If you believe Government can protect you, you are going to be very disappointed. We need to protect each other, We need to look out for each other, and We need to solve these problems locally.

[Villagesperson]

What about for terminally ill medical patients?


I assume that the below brief recap would fit what you speak of.

"Receiving full social security disability benefits because of a mental illness and couldn't work and they were unable to manage their own benefits, thus needing the help of a third party to do so".

Actually, it leaves out the terminal illness part, but makes it even more important.

THAT WAS a law by EO, but since reversed Jan 2017

Both the NRA and ACLU opposed this EO when it was signed in 2016, and now reversed.

[DeanFL]

Excellent idea IMO - I totally concur with this.


(CNN)The father of a student who was killed in the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School said parents who don't like President Donald Trump's controversial suggestion that armed teachers could combat school shooters are free to send their kids to other schools.

"You have the choice to go to any school you want, so my answer to them is, 'If you don't want a teacher or a marshal or you don't want someone with a gun at your school, you go to a gun-free school zone. That's where you go,'" said Andrew Pollack, who attended the meeting last week at which Trump suggested arming teachers.
Leaving to parents whether to send their children to schools with armed teachers or a police presence "fixes everything," said Pollack, who spoke Wednesday with anchor Alisyn Camerota on CNN's "New Day."

"This is America, and it's freedom of choice, right?" said Pollack, whose daughter, Meadow, died in the Parkland, Florida massacre.
The grieving father, who gained notoriety after telling the President last week he is "****ed" that school shootings keep happening, reiterated that sentiment with Camerota.

"This is my life," Pollack said, "and I just want to be the last one. It stops with me."

Pollack also revealed that he hears Meadow's voice in his head, calling him "Daddy" and empowering him to "work nonstop" to combat school shootings, he said.

[billethkid]

What about for terminally ill medical patients?

:icon_bored:

[Steve9930]

There is more info coming out on why the resource officer did not enter the building. Don't believe everything that you have heard or read so far. O'Reilly had some information this evening that he's uncovered. He's convinced me to step back and wait for the investigation. It sounds more like a poor plan, erroneous information, lack of leadership, and a lot of confusion at the time. Just enforces my believe that if you rely on Government to protect you or your love one's you will be very disappointed.

It also reminded me of this story. General Eisenhower was asked if he had a battle plan. His response was priceless: "There's always a plan until the first shot is fired".

[Carl in Tampa]

Like Drew Peterson said "Nothing says I love you like a Glock."

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Not sure what that comment means but I hope you understand that ANY semi automatic rifle, shotgun or handgun can fire bullets just as fast as an AR 15.

If somehow the AR 15 was banned, and all 16 million of them were confiscated, the crazies would just switch to another platform.

Here is a completely legal gun that is scarier than the AR 15

Fostech Origin 12 Shotgun

74151

Load the 30 round magazine with 000 Buckshot shells and you can mow down a crowd very fast

I think you will find that the Fostech and similar "Street Sweeper" shotguns have been classified as Class III Dangerous Devices (like full auto machineguns) and are tightly controlled, as well as being very expensive.

You are certainly correct that if all AR-15s were banned, the crazies would simply switch to another gun. The school shooting which resulted in the most deaths was Virginia Tech, where a Glock pistol was used.

As a friend of mine says at the end of almost every post he makes, "In God and Glock I trust."

[Steve9930]

In a previous post I put up a link to the Columbine incident. If you took the time to read it, you would have noticed the two shooters had made bombs out of 20 LB. Propane bottles,(Evil always finds away). They failed to exploded, Why, I believe some one reached down from above and said not today. Anyway the authorities indicated had these devices exploded, it would have brought down the roof of the building and the casualties would have been over 400. Its a scarry world today and laws will not change that fact.

[Abby10]

In a previous post I put up a link to the Columbine incident. If you took the time to read it, you would have noticed the two shooters had made bombs out of 20 LB. Propane bottles,(Evil always finds away). They failed to exploded, Why, I believe some one reached down from above and said not today. Anyway the authorities indicated had these devices exploded, it would have brought down the roof of the building and the casualties would have been over 400. Its a scarry world today and laws will not change that fact.

The exact thought I had when I heard the Parkland shooter's gun jammed.

People, we have got to wake up! As Steve said - evil always finds a way. We need to quit arguing about guns and begin coming up with real solutions on how to protect our most vulnerable. Another poster suggested that we, the people, do something and quit waiting on the government to come up with a solution. He in turn was called out by another poster who thought that was not possible. But, it is! We are already hearing about schools who are locked down while in session and teachers who are licensed to conceal carry with many others lining up to get training to become licensed. Also, the hiring of armed security or volunteer armed security is in place in some areas of the country. We CAN do something and we should.

In my mind, this is just one more way we, the people, are taking back the country. We don't have to depend on the federal government to solve all of our problems, and we shouldn't. More control needs to be in the hands of the local communities, meaning the local citizens working hand in hand with the schools and the local government to tighten up security for our children's sake.

One final note, another poster insinuated that it was not good for the morale of children to have guns (in the way of security) in schools and that being locked down is too much like a prison and, as such, both would inhibit learning. I say what inhibits learning is fear and the feeling of one not being safe. Measures like those mentioned above will improve the feeling of security that all children need to thrive.

[billethkid]

More rules and discipline which the majority will have no problem with as long as what ever is said and done in enforced.

Those who would cry out against such, let's call them "fixes" are in the minority. And it is time to tell the minority, their minority position is duly noted. Now follow the rules and comply like the other 99+%.

As Spock would logically say....the good of the many far outweighs the good of the one.
Yes it is time for the majority, to get back to being the norm!

[graciegirl]

More rules and discipline which the majority will have no problem with as long as what ever is said and done in enforced.

Those who would cry out against such, let's call them "fixes" are in the minority. And it is time to tell the minority, their minority position is duly noted. Now follow the rules and comply like the other 99+%.

As Spock would logically say....the good of the many far outweighs the good of the one.
Yes it is time for the majority, to get back to being the norm!

You have said this in your posts for years and I very much agree with you. The unrealistic citizens have huge clout with the mainstream media constantly stirring the pot, using diversion and opinion rather than factual reporting of real situations as they did in the past.

It is time for the more polite majority to make more noise.

[Cisco Kid]

Illinois just passed 6 more gun laws today to go with thousands that we have. It is good to know that the killing in Chicago will now be over.

[Fredster]

Illinois just passed 6 more gun laws today to go with thousands that we have. It is good to know that the killing in Chicago will now be over.

I will never understand the ridgid mindset
that will continue to believe that 6 more laws
will make that true!

[spuds51]

You have said this in your posts for years and I very much agree with you. The unrealistic citizens have huge clout with the mainstream media constantly stirring the pot, using diversion and opinion rather than factual reporting of real situations as they did in the past.

It is time for the more polite majority to make more noise.

It's interesting that you bring up mainstream media. I have long believed that they play a very large part in these shootings. Of course, when something like this happens it's news and it will be reported (you heard it first here at ch 2) but I see no need to give their names, show their faces, tell their sad little stories. They are giving them exactly what they want. I see it as a sick mind trying to out-do the last sick mind. They want the notoriety. Instead of giving their names belittle them. Report it as another worthless loser committed another senseless act and make a point of saying that they will not air their name or show their face. That IMO would do more to slow down school shootings than adding any gun laws.

[billethkid]

I will never understand the ridgid mindset
that will continue to believe that 6 more laws
will make that true!

Those 6 laws amount to nothing more than chest thumping and vote bait.

[rivaridger1]

I have not opened any of the threads on TOV for a while, but knew this one would be interesting and an important discourse on a gnawing societal issue which bothers me on a daily basis. Depending on the day, frankly I can come down on either side of the debate. It all eventually comes down to how we balance the individual rights guaranteed to us by our Constitution against the responsibilities we have to protect the society responsible for providing those guaranties.

Frankly, I think we need, no matter the individual economic consequences, to do all in our power to preserve our rights as citizens of this great country.

With that said, limit access to our educational institutions. If we can protect our airports, certainly we can protect our schools. Chain link fences, limited access points, and armed security are an answer. If we look at our governmental institutions, starting with the Feds, proceeding to the states and counties, this has already been done. We do not to arm teachers, particularly if they do not want to be armed.

Security and peace of mind cost money. Acknowledge that for goodness sake and spend it. If it preserves our personal guaranteed rights which many have died to preserve , it is worth it.

[Steve9930]

Freedom comes with risks.

[GoodLife]

A few updates:

The Florida deputy stationed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School who waited outside while 17 people were killed said in radio calls that he believed the shots were coming from inside the school as newly released logs revealed that officers did not enter until 11 minutes after the shooting started.

Scot Peterson had previously said through his lawyer that he believed the gunshots were "originating from outside."

Deputy said in radio calls shots were coming from inside - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/fired-deputy-radio-calls-shots-coming-article-1.3864876)

FBI staffers knew warnings about Nikolas Cruz were related but closed the case, lawmakers learn

FBI staffers knew warnings about Nikolas Cruz were related but closed the case, lawmakers learn | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/07/fbi-staffers-knew-warnings-about-nikolas-cruz-were-related-but-closed-case-lawmakers-learn.html)

Hero Parkland Student Shot 5 Times Shielding Others Is First To Sue Broward Sheriff, School

A 15-year-old who was grievously wounded in the Florida school shooting has filed notice that he will sue authorities to seek money to cover the cost of his recovery.

A lawyer for Anthony Borges and his family says the sheriff’s office, the school resource officer, the Broward County school system and the principal at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School failed to protect students from the teen gunman who killed 17 people and wounded more than a dozen others on Valentine’s Day.

Hero Parkland Student Shot 5 Times Shielding Others Is First To Sue Broward Sheriff, School | Sparta Report (https://www.spartareport.com/2018/03/hero-parkland-student-shot-5-times-shielding-others-is-first-to-sue-broward-sheriff-school/)

Compare and contrast this kid with David Hoggs, who was not even in the building where shots were fired, who is now all over the TV and Twitter calling for gun control.

[DeanFL]

Today Gov Scott signed the Bill passed by the FL Legislature. Very pleased that our state government worked together well and quickly. Personally I agree with all detail points of this bill - a very good start, and throws the gauntlet down to other states.

Overview>

Gov. Rick Scott today signed a school safety and gun control bill that came in the wake of the Parkland shootings that killed 17 at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

The bill includes language on procedures that would allow some teachers and staff to carry guns on campus. It also imposes a three-day waiting period for any gun purchase and raises the minimum legal age for buying all guns in Florida from 18 to 21.

The half-billion dollar package, dubbed the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Act, includes requirements for mental health and safety programs in schools.


Watch it: Gov. Rick Scott proposes school safety plan (http://www.tallahassee.com/videos/news/politics/2018/02/23/watch-gov.-rick-scott-proposes-school-safety-plan/110746496/)

[graciegirl]

Today Gov Scott signed the Bill passed by the FL Legislature. Very pleased that our state government worked together well and quickly. Personally I agree with all detail points of this bill - a very good start, and throws the gauntlet down to other states.

Overview>

Gov. Rick Scott today signed a school safety and gun control bill that came in the wake of the Parkland shootings that killed 17 at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

The bill includes language on procedures that would allow some teachers and staff to carry guns on campus. It also imposes a three-day waiting period for any gun purchase and raises the minimum legal age for buying all guns in Florida from 18 to 21.

The half-billion dollar package, dubbed the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Act, includes requirements for mental health and safety programs in schools.


Watch it: Gov. Rick Scott proposes school safety plan (http://www.tallahassee.com/videos/news/politics/2018/02/23/watch-gov.-rick-scott-proposes-school-safety-plan/110746496/)

I like Governor Scott more and more. I really liked that he stayed on the media before Irma telling people to take the Hurricane seriously and I felt he really cared. This compromise is a good example. He is obviously not afraid of the extreme feelings about this issue. I think he is strong and brave and a good person.

[Bucco]

Today Gov Scott signed the Bill passed by the FL Legislature. Very pleased that our state government worked together well and quickly. Personally I agree with all detail points of this bill - a very good start, and throws the gauntlet down to other states.

Overview>

Gov. Rick Scott today signed a school safety and gun control bill that came in the wake of the Parkland shootings that killed 17 at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

The bill includes language on procedures that would allow some teachers and staff to carry guns on campus. It also imposes a three-day waiting period for any gun purchase and raises the minimum legal age for buying all guns in Florida from 18 to 21.

The half-billion dollar package, dubbed the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Act, includes requirements for mental health and safety programs in schools.


Watch it: Gov. Rick Scott proposes school safety plan (http://www.tallahassee.com/videos/news/politics/2018/02/23/watch-gov.-rick-scott-proposes-school-safety-plan/110746496/)

And the NRA is on it...same day

"TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- The National Rifle Association has filed a federal lawsuit over a Florida legislation that raises the age to buy guns to 21."

NRA files federal lawsuit over Florida legislation that raises the age to buy guns to 21 | abc11.com (http://abc11.com/nra-files-federal-lawsuit-over-florida-legislation-that-raises-the-age-to-buy-guns-to-21/3195129/)

[Carl in Tampa]

Today Gov Scott signed the Bill passed by the FL Legislature. Very pleased that our state government worked together well and quickly. Personally I agree with all detail points of this bill - a very good start, and throws the gauntlet down to other states.

Overview>

Gov. Rick Scott today signed a school safety and gun control bill that came in the wake of the Parkland shootings that killed 17 at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

The bill includes language on procedures that would allow some teachers and staff to carry guns on campus. It also imposes a three-day waiting period for any gun purchase and raises the minimum legal age for buying all guns in Florida from 18 to 21.

The half-billion dollar package, dubbed the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Act, includes requirements for mental health and safety programs in schools.


Watch it: Gov. Rick Scott proposes school safety plan (http://www.tallahassee.com/videos/news/politics/2018/02/23/watch-gov.-rick-scott-proposes-school-safety-plan/110746496/)

To the best of my knowledge, no female teenager has ever committed a mass shooting at a school.

In view of that fact, this appears to be an unfair law, limiting women's rights with no basis to justify it.

:shocked: ...... :1rotfl:

[GoodLife]

And the NRA is on it...same day

| abc11.com[/url]

All Central Florida Democrats voted against the bill.

[Kenswing]

Why didn't they just outlaw murder? Oh...

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I think that the governor is trying to please all sides and it's backfiring on him. The left is upset that he's allowing school employees to defend themselves and the right is upset that he's raising the age to buy a rifle.

I think that we all agree that more has to be done about allowing mentally ill people access to guns, but that is a very complex issue. Exactly how do we define mental illness? Are people who are diagnosed with dysthymia or mild depression to be deemed to be mentally ill? Is everyone who is on some mild anti-depressant going to have their rights taken away?

It also should be obvious that law enforcement has to do a better job of reporting issues and communicating with one another.

I can't imagine that anyone in an active shooter situation wouldn't want to be armed. Some are going to say that the answer to that is to eliminate all active shooter situations. I'm all for that if it can be guaranteed that we'll never have another crazy person get a gun and start shooting up schools and airports. But how is it possible to guarantee that? I think that if you believe that we can do that, you're more than a bit naive. The only way to #1 discourage these shootings and #2 to ameliorate the damage done when they do occur.

As far as raising the age to buy a rifle I don't see that doing any good and I think that it will eventually be overturned in court.

The thing is that the fact that 18-year-olds could be drafted into the military and sent to fight for our country was grounds for lowering the voting age in 1971. I think that the bottom line question is; At what age do our constitutional rights kick in? If it's 18 for voting, how can an argument be made for 21 to own a firearm? I think that it has to be one or the other.

Raising the age is going to prevent single mothers age 18-20 from buying a gun to defend their homes and children. Where is the outrage about sexism and age discrimination?

[My Post]

Raising the age is going to prevent single mothers age 18-20 from buying a gun to defend their homes and children. Where is the outrage about sexism and age discrimination?

Good post Winston.

I don't think it bans them from owning hand guns though. Which one would use as self defense. You def don't want an AR-15 in close quarters with kids sleeping in the next room etc...

Also, if there are so many 18-20 YO single moms who are constantly needing to kill Babby Daddy's and ex boyfriends, etc...we should just pack it in and give up. Is it really that much of a thing? Goodness.

[billethkid]

Anybody care to venture a guess how much these new laws will impact any potential future event?
How about what the impact would have been if theses laws were in effect a year prior to the shooting?

The new laws are nothing more than political eye wash.
Chest thumping rights for a political speech.....i.e. see what we did to curb gun violence.

Impact on violence, gun or otherwise.....less than negligible!!

[GoodLife]

Impact on violence, gun or otherwise.....less than negligible!!

Yep. If only the FBI or Broward's Sheriffs had followed up on existing laws, or the Broward school officials did not embrace Promise Program "hug a thug" policies that lowered student arrests artificially, the shooter would have never been allowed to purchase guns under EXISTING LAWS!

Meanwhile politicians pass laws to make people think they are "doing something"

[Jdmiata]

All political BS......nothing will change . A problem only for one country in the world. Why is that ?

[biker1]

Unfortunately, we are not the only country in the world with mass shootings.

Sorry, Despite Gun-Control Advocates' Claims, U.S. Isn't The Worst Country For Mass Shootings | Stock News & Stock Market Analysis - IBD (https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-despite-gun-control-advocates-claims-u-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/)


All political BS......nothing will change . A problem only for one country in the world. Why is that ?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Good post Winston.

I don't think it bans them from owning hand guns though. Which one would use as self defense. You def don't want an AR-15 in close quarters with kids sleeping in the next room etc...

Also, if there are so many 18-20 YO single moms who are constantly needing to kill Babby Daddy's and ex boyfriends, etc...we should just pack it in and give up. Is it really that much of a thing? Goodness.


Actually, this new law raises the age for obtaining a rifle from 18 to 21. The age for owning a handgun is already 21.

A homeowner in Texas just used an AR-15 to defend himself and his home against three armed assailants.

There are probably more single mothers attack in this country on an annual basis than there are school shootings. As horrible as they are, school shootings are relatively rare. More kids are killed in Chicago every week than were killed in Parkland in one day. Why aren't we just as upset about that?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Anybody care to venture a guess how much these new laws will impact any potential future event?
How about what the impact would have been if theses laws were in effect a year prior to the shooting?

The new laws are nothing more than political eye wash.
Chest thumping rights for a political speech.....i.e. see what we did to curb gun violence.

Impact on violence, gun or otherwise.....less than negligible!!

I believe that having some school employees armed may help to deter some of these school shootings. Especially if signs are posted warning that some employees are armed. The worst thing that we can tell people who want to kill large amounts of people is that they are in a gun-free zone. Now if they'll only take down those ridiculous signs at airports and allow lawful concealed carry permit holders to bring their guns into the terminal we'd all be a lot safer there as well.

[Kenswing]

I believe that having some school employees armed may help to deter some of these school shootings. Especially if signs are posted warning that some employees are armed. The worst thing that we can tell people who want to kill large amounts of people is that they are in a gun-free zone. Now if they'll only take down those ridiculous signs at airports and allow lawful concealed carry permit holders to bring their guns into the terminal we'd all be a lot safer there as well.
"This school is no longer a gun free zone"..

[ColdNoMore]

Unfortunately, we are not the only country in the world with mass shootings.

Sorry, Despite Gun-Control Advocates' Claims, U.S. Isn't The Worst Country For Mass Shootings | Stock News & Stock Market Analysis - IBD (https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-despite-gun-control-advocates-claims-u-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/)

In low population countries (e.g. Norway), it only takes a few high fatality incidents...to really skew these stat's.


The real issue, as usual...is to follow the money (or the lack thereof in this case).

The fact that the NRA hasn't been able to incite enough fear by screeching "they're trying to take away your guns"... has resulted in a precipitous drop in gun sales in 2017.

To the point that prior to Parkland, Winchester was filing bankruptcy...and gun sales overall last year were down tremendously.

Inside Republicans''' New Direction on Gun Restrictions | Time (http://time.com/5180537/gun-control-donald-trump-meeting/)

There may be another explanation for the Republicans’ talk of modest new gun restrictions: money. Gun manufacturers are in the midst of the worst business crisis in decades, with double-digit sales drops driving some to the brink of bankruptcy.

The NRA, which gets its funding not only from individual members but also major gunmakers, is in a position to help. Nothing gooses gun sales like the threat of new gun-control measures. And behind the scenes, two senior GOP officials tell TIME, the NRA has given lawmakers the green light to float new gun limits without the threat of retribution.

The logic: introducing those policies — or even better, debating them — will be good for business. Jennifer Baker, a NRA spokeswoman, denied that her organization made such overtures to Congress and said the NRA’s main concern was not gun sales but rather defending gun rights.

If past is prologue, Keane says, the tragedy in Parkland and the ensuing debate could spur an urgency among Americans to stock up.

[Steve9930]

Personally I believe the conversation is focused too much on the tool and not enough on the problem. Here is the question that needs to be answered: "Why now? Guns have been a part of our society since this countries inception, why is it now acceptable in the minds of some, to pick up a weapon, and kill innocent people, lots of people, at one time? Why now? Where is this motivation born?

Laws will never stop these incidents and its not the AR-15 platform that is the problem. Read my post about Columbine. The two had made bombs from 20 LB LP Bottles that luckily did not explode. Had they worked, the estimated casualties would have been over 400. It would have collapsed the roof of the building.

As for teachers being armed, I don't have a problem with it , if the school employee, who ever that might be, volunteers and is willing to put in the extra time. I'm not going to make that decision for them, it's their decision to make. I personally would volunteer and take the training.

As for the age of 21 for rifles. I started hunting with my friends at the age of 16. I think I even purchased my own shot gun at the time. However, from what I see today, I'm not sure today's average 18 year old is as mature as we were when my friends and I were that age. There is a difference between being well informed and mature. We were mature but had less information available to us then today's kids. Also I don't remember anyone I ever knew talking about walking into a school and playing real time target practice with the student body. There were acceptable boundaries that you did not cross. I don't see these kids having the same conceptual understanding of boundaries.
The AR-15 semi-auto rifle platform is a very efficient, well designed, weapon. Far more efficient then a bolt action, or lever action rifle. I'm not sure I want that rifle in the hands of an 18 year old unsupervised.

As for banning the AR-15, I will never support that approach. However I could see it changed to a different class which requires more scrutiny to own one. This has already been done with a number of other firearms.

[Bucco]

Personally I believe the conversation is focused too much on the tool and not enough on the problem. Here is the question that needs to be answered: "Why now? Guns have been a part of our society since this countries inception, why is it now acceptable in the minds of some, to pick up a weapon, and kill innocent people, lots of people, at one time? Why now? Where is this motivation born?

Laws will never stop these incidents and its not the AR-15 platform that is the problem. Read my post about Columbine. The two had made bombs from 20 LB LP Bottles that luckily did not explode. Had they worked, the estimated casualties would have been over 400. It would have collapsed the roof of the building.

As for teachers being armed, I don't have a problem with it , if the school employee, who ever that might be, volunteers and is willing to put in the extra time. I'm not going to make that decision for them, it's their decision to make. I personally would volunteer and take the training.

As for the age of 21 for rifles. I started hunting with my friends at the age of 16. I think I even purchased my own shot gun at the time. However, from what I see today, I'm not sure today's average 18 year old is as mature as we were when my friends and I were that age. There is a difference between being well informed and mature. We were mature but had less information available to us then today's kids. Also I don't remember anyone I ever knew talking about walking into a school and playing real time target practice with the student body. There were acceptable boundaries that you did not cross. I don't see these kids having the same conceptual understanding of boundaries.
The AR-15 semi-auto rifle platform is a very efficient, well designed, weapon. Far more efficient then a bolt action, or lever action rifle. I'm not sure I want that rifle in the hands of an 18 year old unsupervised.

As for banning the AR-15, I will never support that approach. However I could see it changed to a different class which requires more scrutiny to own one. This has already been done with a number of other firearms.

This, in my opinion is an extremely valid post.

Especially, and capturing what I see as the problem, your opening paragraph....

"Here is the question that needs to be answered: "Why now? Guns have been a part of our society since this countries inception, why is it now acceptable in the minds of some, to pick up a weapon, and kill innocent people, lots of people, at one time? Why now? Where is this motivation born?"

[Taltarzac725]

Stores likely to face more lawsuits over ban on under-21 gun sales - NBC News (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/stores-likely-face-more-lawsuits-over-ban-under-21-gun-n854996)

These laws look like they are written too broadly. Probably will be struck down by various state courts.

[billethkid]

Stores likely to face more lawsuits over ban on under-21 gun sales - NBC News (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/stores-likely-face-more-lawsuits-over-ban-under-21-gun-n854996)

These laws look like they are written too broadly. Probably will be struck down by various state courts.

As intended by the authoring politician(s).
They retain bragging rights for having "done something"......in their own narrow political mind anyway.

[Steve9930]

Stores likely to face more lawsuits over ban on under-21 gun sales - NBC News (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/stores-likely-face-more-lawsuits-over-ban-under-21-gun-n854996)

These laws look like they are written too broadly. Probably will be struck down by various state courts.

Laws written out of gut reaction usually don't stand up to scrutiny.

[GoodLife]

The Troubled Tenure of Scott Israel, Sheriff of Broward County

The Troubled Tenure of Scott Israel, Sheriff of Broward County | The New Yorker (https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-troubled-tenure-of-scott-israel-sheriff-of-broward-county)

[armyguyot1]

I taught for the last 5 years and could not carry a weapon by contract. Any other person with a concealed carry can bring a weapon on campus. I really don't want to carry at school but I don't want the potential shooter to know I am unarmed. Some should be. In our school, even the security is not allowed to carry and that wrong. I am a gun advocate with nearly 40 years in the military and combat experience. I think we need to tighten the rules on selling weapons but not ban them. I was appalled to learn this kid bought that weapon at 18. I would be in favor of raising the age for buying to a much later time. Mass killings have been done with knives, are you going to ban knives? Mass killings have been done a lot with trucks and cars, going to ban them? We can't keep guys like this from doing it but we should have people armed that can stop it. In the Florida shooting we did and that guy should be prosecuted for failure to do his job just as a soldier would be for desertion. He took the money for years and then didn't do his job when the time came. Wish the answer were simple but it isn't.

[Allegiance]

Just pass a constitutional amendment that says criminals must obey the laws.

Easy peasy

[billethkid]

And when those who have no idea what they are talking about propose stricter gun laws....stop and ask them specifically what do they have in mind.

Then enjoy the silence (perhaps some stuttering mumbo jumbo).