View Full Version : ceiling crack
village dreamer
02-27-2018, 03:59 PM
my home is 3 years old , should i contact home warranty about my lanai ceiling crack.
Chellybean
02-27-2018, 04:17 PM
Read the POA finding, it's a joke the engineering report.
My lanai and garage are both insulated from day one and i have cracks. They should of used mesh tape from the beginning and a better quality of drywall compound mix.
It is the product and poor workmanship and lack of knowledge.
There needs to be a class action lawsuit.
I repaired mine with mess tape and a mix of durabond and mud and it has held up much better than the repairs the village did.
Lets see how much trouble this gets me in!
TimeForChange
02-27-2018, 04:30 PM
The warranty on your home was one year and during that year they will only come once to repair sheet rock or stucco problems. Getting the crack repaired is very easy. Just get some sheet rock mud at the store, take your finger and smooth it over the crack. Then tape a paint brush to a long broom handle and paint over it. If you can afford a house in TV you should be able to get a handyman to repair if you cannot do yourself.
villagetinker
02-27-2018, 04:33 PM
I have been waiting to repair to see if anything comes of the POA inquiry into this matter with the developer.
PaulDenise
02-27-2018, 04:55 PM
I had them come out and 'repair' mine within the year of the Warranty. They simply slathered a thick layer of flexible mud on the cracks, painted it, and left.
Of course the cracks came back and they are now on top of a thick layer of added on mud. It is worse than before.
I think that you really need to sand down the texture, wet all the joints, pull off the tape, re-tape with mesh tape, re-mud, re-texture, and re-paint.
No easy answers.
village dreamer
02-27-2018, 04:55 PM
The warranty on your home was one year and during that year they will only come once to repair sheet rock or stucco problems. Getting the crack repaired is very easy. Just get some sheet rock mud at the store, take your finger and smooth it over the crack. Then tape a paint brush to a long broom handle and paint over it. If you can afford a house in TV you should be able to get a handyman to repair if you cannot do yourself.
yes i can do all that but the crack will come back.
rustyp
02-27-2018, 06:57 PM
Can you believe there is any validity to poor workmanship ? I have only heard of 100's of people making this same claim. Contact the POA and give them more ammunition to help out this situation. Lanai's are the main living area of many houses here. Making any excuse for this is BS. Keep making noise you have been short sheeted.
birdawg
02-27-2018, 07:00 PM
I had the Sumter county. bldg. inspector come to my home and look at the cracks, his opinion was the seams were not taped properly. I asked why did they approve the work and he said they do not inspect the work in the villages they have their own inspectors. My concern is the fire protection inside the garage could be jeopardized. Which would be a code violation
HiHoSteveO
02-27-2018, 10:20 PM
I have been waiting to repair to see if anything comes of the POA inquiry into this matter with the developer.
Me too! Haven't heard anything further regarding POA action since engineer looked into it. Few months? Wonder if it's just been dropped.
Ceilings (both the lanai and garage) are looking worse and worse. The first repair didn't hold very long.
jchase
02-28-2018, 07:51 AM
I have had the same problem. Had it repaired twice. The dry waller said it will happen again. There is no stud under the seam. It is just taped and mud applied. I’m as well waiting for POA.
darock1
02-28-2018, 08:22 AM
I am a roof truss manufacturer from Illinois. We deal with these drywall crack issues every year. My guess is the cold weather we had here in the Villages a month ago had a lot to do with these drywall cracks appearing. When the bottom chord of the trusses are insulated and warm and the top chords and webs are not during an extreme temperature change they will expand and contract therefore causing drywall cracks at the weakest point. The reason these cracks appear along the seams every 4 feet is not due to bad tape, its due to 2nd or 3rd coats of mud being applied to soon in high humidity. If you do some research on USG drywall installation you will find that in high humidity you should not apply an additional coat of mud to a joint for 2-3 days. My best guess is due to the limited time frame these contractors have, that procedure was not practiced.
darock1
02-28-2018, 08:31 AM
Now I will explain in detail the repair that has worked for me on some of the houses I built in Illinois. I have a very good drywall contractor with 30+ years experience. He slightly grooved the drywall crack and reapplied a Quickset 90 drywall mud, feathered out approximately 6 inches wide. After 2 days he lightly sanded it and used a special sponge to dab the texture and make it match the existing texture, which is very tedious and hard to do. Then it was repainted and it turned out beautiful and has held up 2 years now with no cracks.
Carla B
02-28-2018, 09:09 AM
Steve Kling Painting repaired ours in 2016 when they repainted the house. So far, so good.
New Englander
02-28-2018, 10:02 AM
I have had the same problem. Had it repaired twice. The dry waller said it will happen again. There is no stud under the seam. It is just taped and mud applied. I’m as well waiting for POA.
There HAS to be a stud behind EVERY seam! The installers were incompetent or just didn't care.
refeik
02-28-2018, 10:33 AM
there has to be a stud behind every seem! The installers were incompetent or just didn't care.
This statement is right on the mark.
Wiotte
02-28-2018, 10:49 AM
There HAS to be a stud behind EVERY seem! The installers were incompetent or just didn't care.
The drywallers can’t nail onto a stud that isn’t there. Blame the General Contractor and or the framers and or the architect. Bottom line, the GC is at fault.
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manaboutown
02-28-2018, 11:18 AM
So, the fastest build is not the best build? :lipsrsealed:
rustyp
02-28-2018, 12:48 PM
Keep reporting these cracks to the POA. I'll bet they are in the data collection mode. It will be interesting to see if they are collecting the data by house location, year built, model, etc. The wrong answer is this is to be expected because of being exposed to outdoors. A cold day here is in the high 20's. For years I have closed my house up north with no heat (drain pipes) and temps reach minus 30 and only had one hairline crack. That was due to over five feet of snow on the roof.
HiHoSteveO
02-28-2018, 01:42 PM
The March 2018 POA Bulletin found on driveways today contains an extensive report on this.
http://www.poa4us.org/bulletins_files/bulletin201803.pdf
Not good news for those with the problem.
rustyp
02-28-2018, 02:10 PM
The March 2018 POA Bulletin found on driveways today contains an extensive report on this.
http://www.poa4us.org/bulletins_files/bulletin201803.pdf
Not good news for those with the problem.
Interesting article - thanks for sharing.Were any of you new home purchasers offered the option of having insulation in the garage or lanai. Did the houses built before 2009 come with insulation standard ? Those of you that enclosed your lanai did the contractor insulate that area ? I would like to know what the developer plans to do with future homes. Will these areas be insulated and joints upgraded. That brings us back to the quality conversation. Meeting code is a requirement. Doesn't make you a good guy. It must be done. Thank goodness the codes here in Florida are pretty good. But there is a difference between code and quality.
manaboutown
02-28-2018, 02:28 PM
Thank goodness the codes here in Florida are pretty good. But there is a difference between code and quality.
Sometimes a huge difference...
rustyp
02-28-2018, 03:11 PM
For those who have not read the ceiling crack article a couple points of interest the POA calls out:
1 more than 1000 homeowners contacted them saying they have the problem
2 30 out of 50 homes in Lake Deaton have reported the problem
Can you imagine how big this problem really is ! Should not be swept under the rug - not ethical.
villagetinker
02-28-2018, 03:31 PM
We had our home built, almost 5 years ago, I do not recall any discussion about additional insulation in the garage or lanai. After reading the POA article I am guessing that we (home owners) will not be getting any repairs on these cracks. I am going to attempt my own repair with a flexible and paintable caulk or similar material. My hope is that this material will stretch and shrink enough to not crack. No idea if this will work, but I will also do some additional research for other ideas.
New Englander
02-28-2018, 04:23 PM
It doesn't matter if there is insulation or not. Drywall that is installed in a way that there is not a stud behind every seam is installed improperly. The cost of the repairs should not fall on the home owner.
jchase
02-28-2018, 05:11 PM
New Englander is right! The Villages knows what the problem is. Will they fix it, who knows.
tagjr1
02-28-2018, 05:56 PM
I had a crack in my kitchen ceiling that Warranty sent out 3 different guys to repair, and each one said "no problem, I'll fix this so it looks like nothing ever happened"! HA! IT GOT WORSE AND WORSE. Finally I convinced the builder to pay for a beam to run the full length of the kitchen and it looks spectacular. Why the beam? The only way to properly fix the ceiling would involve moving out for 3 days and stripping the ceiling in the kitchen, great room and dining area! What a mess that would have been.
CFrance
02-28-2018, 09:12 PM
This question is actually for Frank DeAngelo and the like, because I really don't know the answer... Why don't the home inspectors who people hire (before the one-year mark of buying a new house) catch this problem? Surely they go up in the attic... can they see there's not enough support there for the garage ceilings?
Wiotte
02-28-2018, 09:18 PM
This question is actually for Frank DeAngelo and the like, because I really don't know the answer... Why don't the home inspectors who people hire (before the one-year mark of buying a new house) catch this problem? Surely they go up in the attic... can they see there's not enough support there for the garage ceilings?
New home inspectors won’t rock the Warranty Dept. boat. They need to maintain a good relationship with them.
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HiHoSteveO
02-28-2018, 10:12 PM
This question is actually for Frank DeAngelo and the like, because I really don't know the answer... Why don't the home inspectors who people hire (before the one-year mark of buying a new house) catch this problem? Surely they go up in the attic... can they see there's not enough support there for the garage ceilings?
Before Frank DeAngelo responds to this... He was my 1 year home inspector. It was he who also saw and turned in the cracking problems to home warranty for repair. A few days later the cracks were all repaired. Weeks or months later, they were all back. -After warranty expiration. That is the problem.
I'd like to fix them again, but why, if they'll just be back?
If the house was built to code, then there must be something wrong with the code. This should not be happening to all these new homes.
He was in the attic over the garage but you can't see much of it from above because of low and angled trusses making it inaccessible. Also builder installed plywood on the floor.
Regarding the lanai, there is no way to see up there without cutting a big hole from below or flattening the attic insulation while crawling through. He could see from down below that the ceilings were cracked.
As to insulation, which is being suggested in the POA Bulletin. Sure, it should reduce expansion and contraction. I agree with that. Frank and I talked quite a bit about that. He could not justify my spending money to insulate a non-conditioned space. I didn't, but might have to consider that.
So the home inspector did find the problems and turned them in along with a full report to me. I think he did his job in reporting problems.
Wiotte
02-28-2018, 10:46 PM
Before Frank DeAngelo responds to this... He was my 1 year home inspector. It was he who also saw and turned in the cracking problems to home warranty for repair. A few days later the cracks were all repaired. Weeks or months later, they were all back. -After warranty expiration. That is the problem.
I'd like to fix them again, but why, if they'll just be back?
If the house was built to code, then there must be something wrong with the code. This should not be happening to all these new homes.
He was in the attic over the garage but you can't see much of it from above because of low and angled trusses making it inaccessible. Also builder installed plywood on the floor.
Regarding the lanai, there is no way to see up there without cutting a big hole from below or flattening the attic insulation while crawling through. He could see from down below that the ceilings were cracked.
As to insulation, which is being suggested in the POA Bulletin. Sure, it should reduce expansion and contraction. I agree with that. Frank and I talked quite a bit about that. He could not justify my spending money to insulate a non-conditioned space. I didn't, but might have to consider that.
So the home inspector did find the problems and turned them in along with a full report to me. I think he did his job in reporting problems.
Yes, he reported the cracked drywall seams but it’s the cause that is the issue.
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manaboutown
02-28-2018, 11:02 PM
new home inspectors won’t rock the warranty dept. Boat. They need to maintain a good relationship with them.
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bingo! :agree:
mulligan
03-01-2018, 08:45 AM
The actual issue is not primarily in the underlying structure, but rather the wrong material being used. Rather than standard drywall being used in these areas, soffit board should be specified. It is resistant to moisture and wide temperature swings.
Wiotte
03-01-2018, 08:54 AM
The actual issue is not primarily in the underlying structure, but rather the wrong material being used. Rather than standard drywall being used in these areas, soffit board should be specified. It is resistant to moisture and wide temperature swings.
It is occurring in garage ceilings. Standard drywall is sufficient.
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NoMoSno
03-01-2018, 08:58 AM
Due to moisture it should be 5/8' "blue" board moisture resistant.
Butt ends should be cut, to end on a stud.
Mesh tape is prone to cracking, any experienced drywaller will use paper tape.
Chellybean
03-01-2018, 09:36 AM
Due to moisture it should be 5/8' "blue" board moisture resistant.
Butt ends should be cut, to end on a stud.
Mesh tape is prone to cracking, any experienced drywaller will use paper tape.
you are way off base and wrong.
It isn't a moisture area like in a shower.
Also paper tape doesn't hold up like a mesh tape.
It comes down to what mud mix you use and the time between coats.
And third the thickness of mud and change of temperature.
I believe Insulated ceiling will have less cracks then non insulated due to the Rapid temperature change.
Also not having a stud behind a joint is a NO NO!!!
My opinion comes from 40 years of building HOMES!
NoMoSno
03-01-2018, 10:00 AM
you are way off base and wrong.
It isn't a moisture area like in a shower.
Also paper tape doesn't hold up like a mesh tape.
It comes down to what mud mix you use and the time between coats.
And third the thickness of mud and change of temperature.
I believe Insulated ceiling will have less cracks then non insulated due to the Rapid temperature change.
Also not having a stud behind a joint is a NO NO!!!
My opinion comes from 40 years of building HOMES!
And as a builder for 45 years, I believe you are way off base and wrong.
Mesh is garbage and is notorious for cracks.
Down here they only do 2 coats on the joints before they apply knock down.
I have 3 homes built in 95, to those specs, none have cracks and the space is NOT insulated.
If you prefer to build your homes with with 1/2" white board on the ceilings, that's fine and within code.
I'll build mine with 5/8" blue board.
upstate
03-01-2018, 10:24 AM
We have a screened in porch, 12x30 at our home in a the northeast. When it was first built thirty years ago, we used plywood for the ceiling. I would sand and stain it every couple of years, that became old. We then had it replaced with white soffit material installed instead, looks great. There are some villas in Fenney using something similar on their lanai ceilings. When we return, we will take down the rock ceiling, have furring strips installed and then use a bead board soffit for the ceiling. Quality materials, and those that know what they are doing seem to come out on top every time. Good luck everyone.
PS- We also have cracks, repaired once and came back. The drywall person came over, said it could be repaired but no guarantees it wouldn't come back again. Thanked them for their honesty and said good bye.
mulligan
03-01-2018, 12:04 PM
It is occurring in garage ceilings. Standard drywall is sufficient.
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Obviously, it's not.
blueeagle65
03-01-2018, 01:55 PM
OK, since there is a great deal of debate regarding what should be done during installation, does anyone have a reccomendation of a person/company that'll repair the problem for a reasonable charge?
rustyp
03-01-2018, 02:30 PM
Did the Warranty Department suggest any solution or contractor for a fix even though they won't pay ?
graciegirl
03-01-2018, 03:54 PM
you are way off base and wrong.
It isn't a moisture area like in a shower.
Also paper tape doesn't hold up like a mesh tape.
It comes down to what mud mix you use and the time between coats.
And third the thickness of mud and change of temperature.
I believe Insulated ceiling will have less cracks then non insulated due to the Rapid temperature change.
Also not having a stud behind a joint is a NO NO!!!
My opinion comes from 40 years of building HOMES!
Average Humidity Levels for Florida - Current Results (https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Florida/humidity-annual.php)
I would say that our average humidity in Florida is pretty close to a shower which is 100%. I am thinking blue board might be the answer too, although the expanding and contracting due to temperature changes coupled with the high humidity are a real problem. Interested in this discussion. We are leaning right now to have a sort of plastic bead board installed. Anyone else think that is a good idea?
Chellybean
03-01-2018, 04:13 PM
And as a builder for 45 years, I believe you are way off base and wrong.
Mesh is garbage and is notorious for cracks.
Down here they only do 2 coats on the joints before they apply knock down.
I have 3 homes built in 95, to those specs, none have cracks and the space is NOT insulated.
If you prefer to build your homes with with 1/2" white board on the ceilings, that's fine and within code.
I'll build mine with 5/8" blue board.
I guess we have a differences of opinion, i'll do it my way and you do it your way.
I have better luck with my way.
I also think there are multiply variables in different areas and different insulation barriers and attic thermo barriers involved.
Good luck my friend and i hope your way works.
I am not sure if the blue board is the answer, but i agree it is better.
I don't share your same opinion on mesh tape as long as its done correctly i believe mesh tape is better.
stay well.
Wiotte
03-01-2018, 07:28 PM
Obviously, it's not.
Because...the seams which are failing are not nailed/screwed to a stud. It has NOTHING to do with type of drywall. Ever hear of a skyhook ?
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village dreamer
03-01-2018, 07:31 PM
well it looks like the poa paper is giving up on any action. and we the consumer get it again.:cus::cus:
manaboutown
03-01-2018, 07:36 PM
How long do they let the concrete slabs cure before framing starts?
Wiotte
03-01-2018, 07:50 PM
How long do they let the concrete slabs cure before framing starts?
When the framers arrive [emoji3]
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mulligan
03-01-2018, 08:00 PM
I've seen them start next day
graciegirl
03-01-2018, 08:33 PM
I have a vivid memory of three years ago where the entire side of a house here had a sinkhole under it but the slab held.
Chellybean
03-01-2018, 09:44 PM
I have a vivid memory of three years ago where the entire side of a house here had a sinkhole under it but the slab held.
That is because all the re bar they use!
DangeloInspections
03-01-2018, 10:01 PM
This question is actually for Frank DeAngelo and the like, because I really don't know the answer... Why don't the home inspectors who people hire (before the one-year mark of buying a new house) catch this problem? Surely they go up in the attic... can they see there's not enough support there for the garage ceilings?
While some home inspectors may not go up into the attic, we do. We typically go all over the attic and on most models we can easily see above the lanai, although there are a couple of models where the lanai is not accessible at all. However, most are.
We find these Lanai cracks all the time. So, to answer the question, we DO find them. I would say we find Lanai cracks on close to 40% of the homes we inspect. We ALWAYS put them in the report. We take pictures of them, and put blue tape on all of them we can get to. When we find more than one, we typically find them every 4 feet, down the seam.
These cracks are known to get bigger and smaller sometimes, as the heat and humidity change. Some of course are obvious and some are so small it is almost impossible to see. Often, we find them and the homeowner has never noticed them.
The problem here is not weather we find them or not......the problem is how they are dealt with or repaired AFTER we find them, document them and have them in the report.
The framing, the trusses are built and designed according to code. The trusses are here in Florida 24" on center.....same with the interior partitions. So a 4' wide sheet of drywall is attached in three places. If the spacing was 16" on center, (common up north with snow loads, etc), there would be 4 points of attachment. Often, the trusses are perpendicular to the drywall sheets, thus can have even more screws, etc across the body of the sheet.
These trusses at 24" on center pass code. They also pass the Architectural design. Most importantly, this method is approved by YOUR county building inspector, commonly known as the AHJ, or the "authority having jurisdiction". He trumps EVERYONE....even the building code.
I take GREAT offense to the post who inferred that home inspectors do not include this in the report because we do not want to "rock the boat" with warranty. There are many here who post whom I have I'm sure done their inspection and they can attest to the fact that this issue WAS in their report. As an ASHI Certified inspector for over 10 years, I have an ethical obligation to only my client. To infer otherwise is like accusing a doctor of not finding an illness because he is in bed with the insurance company. Although I do have a good relationship with warranty, I have very many times "gone to bat" for the homeowner on a contentious issue and proved my case to the benefit of the homeowner. There are issues I used to find all the time that I no longer find because the builders have changed their method to a better way because they realized we were right and they no longer wanted to have to go back to fix the issue over and over again.
Anyway, getting back to the ceiling issue.....why does this happen and what is the best way to fix it?
I am not an engineer. I have built houses and I feel knowledgeable enough to try to answer this. When I have difficult or recurring cracks in drywall I use a stronger drywall compound, like Durabond 90. I may also use more screws. Cracks typically do not get permanently fixed with a little caulk and paint.
If I were building a lanai with a drywall ceiling, I might consider installing furring strips 16" o.c. between the trusses. I would use durabond 90. I would paint this ceiling with an elastomeric paint. I would insulate above this lanai, even though it is unconditioned space. I would always install a light colored roof. Many of these ideas were actually in that engineers report your POA hired....so I am not too far off base.
Actually, I would most likely not use drywall in this application, knowing the many problems others have experienced. I personally love the look of vinyl beadboard soffit. I used it on my northern home across the front porch, (no Lanai's in western NY, lol) and it looked amazing and never had a problem.
It looked great, was easy to clean and actually less labor intensive. I have bought this product from T&D off of 301. They sell matching J channel for it and it does NOT look cheap.
In closing, we also find this to a lesser extent in some garages.....for much the same reasons. I currently live in a 10 year old Premier type home, and I have a good crack in MY garage. I'm too busy doing inspections to get around to fixing it...my wifes honey-do list comes first. When I do fix it I will do all the things I mentioned above.
I apologize for the long post, and hope I did not offend anyone. I am only here to help. The bottom line here, (and many here can attest to this) is when we do warranty inspections we often find many things that the homeowner did not even know about. Most of those things would be costly to have to pay for the repair, so the cost of the inspection is often many times a small fraction of what the repairs would cost if you had to pay for them. Most of the time they are fixed by warranty well. Sometimes they may not be. We find the issues, document them, and much more often than not they are repaired well by the builders.
No one bats 1000. This IS a very common contentious issue. I hope I helped at least a bit here.
Respectfully, Frank D'Angelo, ACI
graciegirl
03-01-2018, 10:25 PM
While some home inspectors may not go up into the attic, we do. We typically go all over the attic and on most models we can easily see above the lanai, although there are a couple of models where the lanai is not accessible at all. However, most are.
We find these Lanai cracks all the time. So, to answer the question, we DO find them. I would say we find Lanai cracks on close to 40% of the homes we inspect. We ALWAYS put them in the report. We take pictures of them, and put blue tape on all of them we can get to. When we find more than one, we typically find them every 4 feet, down the seam.
These cracks are known to get bigger and smaller sometimes, as the heat and humidity change. Some of course are obvious and some are so small it is almost impossible to see. Often, we find them and the homeowner has never noticed them.
The problem here is not weather we find them or not......the problem is how they are dealt with or repaired AFTER we find them, document them and have them in the report.
The framing, the trusses are built and designed according to code. The trusses are here in Florida 24" on center.....same with the interior partitions. So a 4' wide sheet of drywall is attached in three places. If the spacing was 16" on center, (common up north with snow loads, etc), there would be 4 points of attachment. Often, the trusses are perpendicular to the drywall sheets, thus can have even more screws, etc across the body of the sheet.
These trusses at 24" on center pass code. They also pass the Architectural design. Most importantly, this method is approved by YOUR county building inspector, commonly known as the AHJ, or the "authority having jurisdiction". He trumps EVERYONE....even the building code.
I take GREAT offense to the post who inferred that home inspectors do not include this in the report because we do not want to "rock the boat" with warranty. There are many here who post whom I have I'm sure done their inspection and they can attest to the fact that this issue WAS in their report. As an ASHI Certified inspector for over 10 years, I have an ethical obligation to only my client. To infer otherwise is like accusing a doctor of not finding an illness because he is in bed with the insurance company. Although I do have a good relationship with warranty, I have very many times "gone to bat" for the homeowner on a contentious issue and proved my case to the benefit of the homeowner. There are issues I used to find all the time that I no longer find because the builders have changed their method to a better way because they realized we were right and they no longer wanted to have to go back to fix the issue over and over again.
Anyway, getting back to the ceiling issue.....why does this happen and what is the best way to fix it?
I am not an engineer. I have built houses and I feel knowledgeable enough to try to answer this. When I have difficult or recurring cracks in drywall I use a stronger drywall compound, like Durabond 90. I may also use more screws. Cracks typically do not get permanently fixed with a little caulk and paint.
If I were building a lanai with a drywall ceiling, I might consider installing furring strips 16" o.c. between the trusses. I would use durabond 90. I would paint this ceiling with an elastomeric paint. I would insulate above this lanai, even though it is unconditioned space. I would always install a light colored roof. Many of these ideas were actually in that engineers report your POA hired....so I am not too far off base.
Actually, I would most likely not use drywall in this application, knowing the many problems others have experienced. I personally love the look of vinyl beadboard soffit. I used it on my northern home across the front porch, (no Lanai's in western NY, lol) and it looked amazing and never had a problem.
It looked great, was easy to clean and actually less labor intensive. I have bought this product from T&D off of 301. They sell matching J channel for it and it does NOT look cheap.
In closing, we also find this to a lesser extent in some garages.....for much the same reasons. I currently live in a 10 year old Premier type home, and I have a good crack in MY garage. I'm too busy doing inspections to get around to fixing it...my wifes honey-do list comes first. When I do fix it I will do all the things I mentioned above.
I apologize for the long post, and hope I did not offend anyone. I am only here to help. The bottom line here, (and many here can attest to this) is when we do warranty inspections we often find many things that the homeowner did not even know about. Most of those things would be costly to have to pay for the repair, so the cost of the inspection is often many times a small fraction of what the repairs would cost if you had to pay for them. Most of the time they are fixed by warranty well. Sometimes they may not be. We find the issues, document them, and much more often than not they are repaired well by the builders.
No one bats 1000. This IS a very common contentious issue. I hope I helped at least a bit here.
Respectfully, Frank D'Angelo, ACI
You deserve the widespread approval you have as an inspector and as a person. Proud to know you, sir.
Wiotte
03-01-2018, 10:45 PM
While some home inspectors may not go up into the attic, we do. We typically go all over the attic and on most models we can easily see above the lanai, although there are a couple of models where the lanai is not accessible at all. However, most are.
We find these Lanai cracks all the time. So, to answer the question, we DO find them. I would say we find Lanai cracks on close to 40% of the homes we inspect. We ALWAYS put them in the report. We take pictures of them, and put blue tape on all of them we can get to. When we find more than one, we typically find them every 4 feet, down the seam.
These cracks are known to get bigger and smaller sometimes, as the heat and humidity change. Some of course are obvious and some are so small it is almost impossible to see. Often, we find them and the homeowner has never noticed them.
The problem here is not weather we find them or not......the problem is how they are dealt with or repaired AFTER we find them, document them and have them in the report.
The framing, the trusses are built and designed according to code. The trusses are here in Florida 24" on center.....same with the interior partitions. So a 4' wide sheet of drywall is attached in three places. If the spacing was 16" on center, (common up north with snow loads, etc), there would be 4 points of attachment. Often, the trusses are perpendicular to the drywall sheets, thus can have even more screws, etc across the body of the sheet.
These trusses at 24" on center pass code. They also pass the Architectural design. Most importantly, this method is approved by YOUR county building inspector, commonly known as the AHJ, or the "authority having jurisdiction". He trumps EVERYONE....even the building code.
I take GREAT offense to the post who inferred that home inspectors do not include this in the report because we do not want to "rock the boat" with warranty. There are many here who post whom I have I'm sure done their inspection and they can attest to the fact that this issue WAS in their report. As an ASHI Certified inspector for over 10 years, I have an ethical obligation to only my client. To infer otherwise is like accusing a doctor of not finding an illness because he is in bed with the insurance company. Although I do have a good relationship with warranty, I have very many times "gone to bat" for the homeowner on a contentious issue and proved my case to the benefit of the homeowner. There are issues I used to find all the time that I no longer find because the builders have changed their method to a better way because they realized we were right and they no longer wanted to have to go back to fix the issue over and over again.
Anyway, getting back to the ceiling issue.....why does this happen and what is the best way to fix it?
I am not an engineer. I have built houses and I feel knowledgeable enough to try to answer this. When I have difficult or recurring cracks in drywall I use a stronger drywall compound, like Durabond 90. I may also use more screws. Cracks typically do not get permanently fixed with a little caulk and paint.
If I were building a lanai with a drywall ceiling, I might consider installing furring strips 16" o.c. between the trusses. I would use durabond 90. I would paint this ceiling with an elastomeric paint. I would insulate above this lanai, even though it is unconditioned space. I would always install a light colored roof. Many of these ideas were actually in that engineers report your POA hired....so I am not too far off base.
Actually, I would most likely not use drywall in this application, knowing the many problems others have experienced. I personally love the look of vinyl beadboard soffit. I used it on my northern home across the front porch, (no Lanai's in western NY, lol) and it looked amazing and never had a problem.
It looked great, was easy to clean and actually less labor intensive. I have bought this product from T&D off of 301. They sell matching J channel for it and it does NOT look cheap.
In closing, we also find this to a lesser extent in some garages.....for much the same reasons. I currently live in a 10 year old Premier type home, and I have a good crack in MY garage. I'm too busy doing inspections to get around to fixing it...my wifes honey-do list comes first. When I do fix it I will do all the things I mentioned above.
I apologize for the long post, and hope I did not offend anyone. I am only here to help. The bottom line here, (and many here can attest to this) is when we do warranty inspections we often find many things that the homeowner did not even know about. Most of those things would be costly to have to pay for the repair, so the cost of the inspection is often many times a small fraction of what the repairs would cost if you had to pay for them. Most of the time they are fixed by warranty well. Sometimes they may not be. We find the issues, document them, and much more often than not they are repaired well by the builders.
No one bats 1000. This IS a very common contentious issue. I hope I helped at least a bit here.
Respectfully, Frank D'Angelo, ACI
This is what I responded to:
This question is actually for Frank DeAngelo and the like, because I really don't know the answer... Why don't the home inspectors who people hire (before the one-year mark of buying a new house) catch this problem? Surely they go up in the attic... can they see there's not enough support there for the garage ceilings?
Do you report to the Warranty Department that there isn’t enough support up there ? I understand the 48” to 24” ratio. You may report the cracks but do you tell the homeowner why they are occurring ?
I stand by my statement Frank. I meant no disrespect.
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DangeloInspections
03-01-2018, 11:38 PM
Thank you Wiotte,
No offense taken. Every Lanai configuration is different. Sometimes it depends weather the trusses are parallel or perpendicular to the direction of the drywall. To answer your question, yes, I have discussed this with some of the builders and with warranty.
My opinion may not hold as much weight when compared to the engineers, Architects and the county building inspector. Of course, the answer to all this is somewhat subjective.
This could be caused by many contributing factors. For instance, I hardly never see these cracks in a courtyard villa Lanai. Perhaps because they are generally smaller? I see less of these cracks when the lanai is insulated....BUT, typically a lanai is insulated because it is enclosed....thus it may be because the temperatures on both sides of the drywall would be in that case close to the same.
So....is it strictly a framing issue? Perhaps not, as the rest of your home is framed the same way, and while we DO find SOME cracks inside the home, not nearly as much. SO...if it were strictly a framing issue, one might think you would see the same cracks all over the inside, which we do not.
Would we perhaps see less Lanai cracks if the framing were different...? Probably. It only makes sense that the more nailing area one has and the more points of attachment, the less movement you may have. But that is NOT the same as saying the current framing is deficient. That is like saying, in a car crash, would my car crunch less if I had big steel I beams welded to frame....sure it would. That does not mean that my car, without the big I beams was built wrong.
I think the cause of these Lanai cracks is a combination of many issues....more screws may help, different drywall mud may help, insulation may help, bridging may help, stiffeners may help, different paint may help, etc, etc.
Is it a attic temperature issue? Perhaps. Can the drywall mud they use take the temperature extremes? Would using Durabond 90 be a better choice? Does the color of the roof matter? They are now finding that a light roof uses 5% less energy to condition the home than a dark roof.
Would a elastomeric paint bridge and hide any cracks the drywall mud may show?
So it could be any of these or a combination of them. Sometimes it is the framing. There is one model where we almost ALWAYS find a crack in a certain specific area in a specific room. That particular crack is most likely a framing issue. Every model has different things we KNOW we will find. When you do over 500 warranty inspections a year in The Villages you know what to look for in the different homes. And while The Villages builds a good home, nothing this side of Heaven is perfect.
Personally, I think the lanai ceiling issue is a combination of all of these things.
As I said before, when you think of the cost of the drywall, the texture finishing, the labor, etc, compared to using a vinyl beadboard soffit product, I would think the latter would be less costly and I KNOW less problematic. But that is only my opinion....I am not a builder, or an engineer, or a developer, or the AHJ.
As a home inspector, this is the stuff we think about all the time. We go to seminars that teach on this stuff. We study about every aspect of home building everyday. This kind of stuff is basically our life.
I've actually had homeowners think that because the Lanai ceiling looks alot like the stucco, they can power wash it. They think it is cement stucco and are shocked to find out it is regular interior drywall. Note to all....do not power wash it. It is the same materials as the ceilings inside your home. It will not take power washing.
Hope that helps!
Frank D'Angelo ACI
Wiotte
03-01-2018, 11:49 PM
Thank you Wiotte,
No offense taken. Every Lanai configuration is different. Sometimes it depends weather the trusses are parallel or perpendicular to the direction of the drywall. To answer your question, yes, I have discussed this with some of the builders and with warranty.
My opinion may not hold as much weight when compared to the engineers, Architects and the county building inspector. Of course, the answer to all this is somewhat subjective.
This could be caused by many contributing factors. For instance, I hardly never see these cracks in a courtyard villa Lanai. Perhaps because they are generally smaller? I see less of these cracks when the lanai is insulated....BUT, typically a lanai is insulated because it is enclosed....thus it may be because the temperatures on both sides of the drywall would be in that case close to the same.
So....is it strictly a framing issue? Perhaps not, as the rest of your home is framed the same way, and while we DO find SOME cracks inside the home, not nearly as much. SO...if it were strictly a framing issue, one might think you would see the same cracks all over the inside, which we do not.
Would we perhaps see less Lanai cracks if the framing were different...? Probably. It only makes sense that the more nailing area one has and the more points of attachment, the less movement you may have. But that is NOT the same as saying the current framing is deficient. That is like saying, in a car crash, would my car crunch less if I had big steel I beams welded to frame....sure it would. That does not mean that my car, without the big I beams was built wrong.
I think the cause of these Lanai cracks is a combination of many issues....more screws may help, different drywall mud may help, insulation may help, bridging may help, stiffeners may help, different paint may help, etc, etc.
Is it a attic temperature issue? Perhaps. Can the drywall mud they use take the temperature extremes? Would using Durabond 90 be a better choice? Does the color of the roof matter? They are now finding that a light roof uses 5% less energy to condition the home than a dark roof.
Would a elastomeric paint bridge and hide any cracks the drywall mud may show?
So it could be any of these or a combination of them. Sometimes it is the framing. There is one model where we almost ALWAYS find a crack in a certain specific area in a specific room. That particular crack is most likely a framing issue. Every model has different things we KNOW we will find. When you do over 500 warranty inspections a year in The Villages you know what to look for in the different homes. And while The Villages builds a good home, nothing this side of Heaven is perfect.
Personally, I think the lanai ceiling issue is a combination of all of these things.
As I said before, when you think of the cost of the drywall, the texture finishing, the labor, etc, compared to using a vinyl beadboard soffit product, I would think the latter would be less costly and I KNOW less problematic. But that is only my opinion....I am not a builder, or an engineer, or a developer, or the AHJ.
As a home inspector, this is the stuff we think about all the time. We go to seminars that teach on this stuff. We study about every aspect of home building everyday. This kind of stuff is basically our life.
I've actually had homeowners think that because the Lanai ceiling looks alot like the stucco, they can power wash it. They think it is cement stucco and are shocked to find out it is regular interior drywall. Note to all....do not power wash it. It is the same materials as the ceilings inside your home. It will not take power washing.
Hope that helps!
Frank D'Angelo ACI
Good summation. Now, if only the various builders will do the right thing and fix the existing issues and change the way they construct going forward. At that point, our houses would be close to perfect. After all, these homes are what we all worked for all those years.
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rustyp
03-02-2018, 06:45 AM
///
graciegirl
03-02-2018, 07:07 AM
74217
I used vinyl soffit for ceiling in this sewing room I built for my wife above our garage up north. Looks good for this application however it's a garage. It does do some funny shadow effects with the light reflecting off the grooves. I'm not sure about using this is an enclosed lanai that one is trying to make look like a formal part of the house. Nor do I know what code allows for inside a house. That is J channel on the outer edges. But I have to screw each soffit piece lengthwise about 16 inches to prevent seeing sag. I do think it would look OK for an outdoor application plus has the benefit of hosing it off.
Very pretty. You wife is fortunate to have your skills.
Chellybean
03-02-2018, 09:26 AM
Very pretty. You wife is fortunate to have your skills.
Gracie Are you saying your hubby does NOT do your honey do list, poor lady!!!
Just kidding Gracie i thought i throw a little humor in this post.
villagetinker
03-02-2018, 10:31 AM
ALL,
First, Frank, thank you for you replies and input. I have used Frank in the past and found him to be very knowledgeable and trustworthy.
Second, after doing some additional research, I am going to attempt the repair myself using a FLEXIBLE filler for the cracks, my hope will be that this material will shrink and expand enough to NOT crack in the future. I am also going to attempt to use the same material for the knock down finish for the same reasons. This will be an interesting experiment, and will probably take a year to see if it works.
Wish me luck!
DangeloInspections
03-02-2018, 10:47 AM
You got it VT....!
Based on everything posted, I believe the factors involved is the movement of the components of course causing the cracking. Any way to minimize that movement would help.
Extreme temperature swings in the attic, the strength of the drywall mud in the seams, the points of attachment, etc, all come into play.
When I built my home up North, (and yes I know there are HUGE differences here and there), I also GLUED and screwed drywall sheet to every stud and rafter in the home. After ten years I still had not one crack or screw pop.
I am not saying that The Villages should do this on the whole house.....but perhaps that too would help at least in the Lanai ceilings. The additional cost and labor would be minimal.
Part of the problem here is that the current method completely passes code 100%. This is not a code problem....more of a "best practice in light of a unique but common problem" situation.
Sometimes when you have a recurring problem you need to explore methodology that exceeds minimum code standards to solve the problem.
Often it costs far less to prevent a problem than it does to fix a problem afterwards.
Frank
Chellybean
03-02-2018, 11:11 AM
You got it VT....!
Based on everything posted, I believe the factors involved is the movement of the components of course causing the cracking. Any way to minimize that movement would help.
Extreme temperature swings in the attic, the strength of the drywall mud in the seams, the points of attachment, etc, all come into play.
When I built my home up North, (and yes I know there are HUGE differences here and there), I also GLUED and screwed drywall sheet to every stud and rafter in the home. After ten years I still had not one crack or screw pop.
I am not saying that The Villages should do this on the whole house.....but perhaps that too would help at least in the Lanai ceilings. The additional cost and labor would be minimal.
Part of the problem here is that the current method completely passes code 100%. This is not a code problem....more of a "best practice in light of a unique but common problem" situation.
Sometimes when you have a recurring problem you need to explore methodology that exceeds minimum code standards to solve the problem.
Often it costs far less to prevent a problem than it does to fix a problem afterwards.
Frank
well said, but gluing a lid is something that needs to be done and gluing a seam is something a drywall contractor will not do in fear of glue coming through the seam and causing problems for taping.
Not a win win situation but a good glued joint would solve a lot of issues.
I glued the drywall joints to the truss in the attic and it solved a lot of movement problems, but to get up there is a chore. I used Locktite 3x in a chalk tube! (lots of it.) L.O.L
In the north if you didn't glue baseboard and window molding corners you would have separation and problems.
Here it seams chalk is there friend here in the villages.L.O.L
DangeloInspections
03-02-2018, 03:31 PM
Here it seams chalk is there friend here in the villages.L.O.L
A little off topic....sorry....
Sadly, homebuilding everywhere has come down to labor costs, etc....and instead of the trade schools thriving producing skilled young people in the trades, you see tons of college grads flipping burgers with a 6 figure student loan debt. Basically it is difficult to find good skilled trade labor now.
When I built my home, I used natural solid oak molding and I coped every joint. You could not fit a piece of paper between a joint. Nowadays, no one even knows what a coped joint is....they think it must be a drug thing....lol...!
Most homebuilding finish work now is "do your best then caulk the rest". Custom work and craftsmanship is becoming a rarity. The things we now take for the norm is all designed to cut labor costs....white trim, knockdown and orange peel finishes, flat wall paint, etc. And of course, there are exceptions.....
Again, I apologize for going off topic.
Now...back to Lanai ceilings.....
Frank
Chellybean
03-02-2018, 09:38 PM
A little off topic....sorry....
Sadly, homebuilding everywhere has come down to labor costs, etc....and instead of the trade schools thriving producing skilled young people in the trades, you see tons of college grads flipping burgers with a 6 figure student loan debt. Basically it is difficult to find good skilled trade labor now.
When I built my home, I used natural solid oak molding and I coped every joint. You could not fit a piece of paper between a joint. Nowadays, no one even knows what a coped joint is....they think it must be a drug thing....lol...!
Most homebuilding finish work now is "do your best then caulk the rest". Custom work and craftsmanship is becoming a rarity. The things we now take for the norm is all designed to cut labor costs....white trim, knockdown and orange peel finishes, flat wall paint, etc. And of course, there are exceptions.....
Again, I apologize for going off topic.
Now...back to Lanai ceilings.....
Frank
Well said Frank, however that is the truth and the craftsman are gone.
The true woodworkers are in there barns up north living there craft.
I brought a crew in up north to build a three store spiral stair case from Canada before the front wall of the house went up.
It was all oak.
The boys from Canada came with a tractortrailer and steamers on board to form all there lumber.
Unfortunately they are far and few between.
The stair case when finished was 76 grand in 1999, in a million dollar home!
So sad, but as we say here we don't buy the house we buy the lifestyle.
EnglishJW
03-05-2018, 10:15 AM
While some home inspectors may not go up into the attic, we do. We typically go all over the attic and on most models we can easily see above the lanai, although there are a couple of models where the lanai is not accessible at all. However, most are.
We find these Lanai cracks all the time. So, to answer the question, we DO find them. I would say we find Lanai cracks on close to 40% of the homes we inspect. We ALWAYS put them in the report. We take pictures of them, and put blue tape on all of them we can get to. When we find more than one, we typically find them every 4 feet, down the seam.
These cracks are known to get bigger and smaller sometimes, as the heat and humidity change. Some of course are obvious and some are so small it is almost impossible to see. Often, we find them and the homeowner has never noticed them.
The problem here is not weather we find them or not......the problem is how they are dealt with or repaired AFTER we find them, document them and have them in the report.
The framing, the trusses are built and designed according to code. The trusses are here in Florida 24" on center.....same with the interior partitions. So a 4' wide sheet of drywall is attached in three places. If the spacing was 16" on center, (common up north with snow loads, etc), there would be 4 points of attachment. Often, the trusses are perpendicular to the drywall sheets, thus can have even more screws, etc across the body of the sheet.
These trusses at 24" on center pass code. They also pass the Architectural design. Most importantly, this method is approved by YOUR county building inspector, commonly known as the AHJ, or the "authority having jurisdiction". He trumps EVERYONE....even the building code.
I take GREAT offense to the post who inferred that home inspectors do not include this in the report because we do not want to "rock the boat" with warranty. There are many here who post whom I have I'm sure done their inspection and they can attest to the fact that this issue WAS in their report. As an ASHI Certified inspector for over 10 years, I have an ethical obligation to only my client. To infer otherwise is like accusing a doctor of not finding an illness because he is in bed with the insurance company. Although I do have a good relationship with warranty, I have very many times "gone to bat" for the homeowner on a contentious issue and proved my case to the benefit of the homeowner. There are issues I used to find all the time that I no longer find because the builders have changed their method to a better way because they realized we were right and they no longer wanted to have to go back to fix the issue over and over again.
Anyway, getting back to the ceiling issue.....why does this happen and what is the best way to fix it?
I am not an engineer. I have built houses and I feel knowledgeable enough to try to answer this. When I have difficult or recurring cracks in drywall I use a stronger drywall compound, like Durabond 90. I may also use more screws. Cracks typically do not get permanently fixed with a little caulk and paint.
If I were building a lanai with a drywall ceiling, I might consider installing furring strips 16" o.c. between the trusses. I would use durabond 90. I would paint this ceiling with an elastomeric paint. I would insulate above this lanai, even though it is unconditioned space. I would always install a light colored roof. Many of these ideas were actually in that engineers report your POA hired....so I am not too far off base.
Actually, I would most likely not use drywall in this application, knowing the many problems others have experienced. I personally love the look of vinyl beadboard soffit. I used it on my northern home across the front porch, (no Lanai's in western NY, lol) and it looked amazing and never had a problem.
It looked great, was easy to clean and actually less labor intensive. I have bought this product from T&D off of 301. They sell matching J channel for it and it does NOT look cheap.
In closing, we also find this to a lesser extent in some garages.....for much the same reasons. I currently live in a 10 year old Premier type home, and I have a good crack in MY garage. I'm too busy doing inspections to get around to fixing it...my wifes honey-do list comes first. When I do fix it I will do all the things I mentioned above.
I apologize for the long post, and hope I did not offend anyone. I am only here to help. The bottom line here, (and many here can attest to this) is when we do warranty inspections we often find many things that the homeowner did not even know about. Most of those things would be costly to have to pay for the repair, so the cost of the inspection is often many times a small fraction of what the repairs would cost if you had to pay for them. Most of the time they are fixed by warranty well. Sometimes they may not be. We find the issues, document them, and much more often than not they are repaired well by the builders.
No one bats 1000. This IS a very common contentious issue. I hope I helped at least a bit here.
Respectfully, Frank D'Angelo, ACI
Thank you for a helpful and insightful post. Unfortunately, I don't think it is realistic to expect many home owners who are experiencing these cracks to be willing/able to implement all of your suggestions.
CFrance
03-05-2018, 11:19 AM
Good explanations, as always.
It sounds to me as if the code needs changing.
TimeForChange
03-10-2018, 01:43 PM
Another idea from a friend was to have white wooden spline strips applied over the cracks and then spread them evenly across the lanai ceiling. All of you waiting for some POA approach to this are wasting your time. The builder met the required building code at the time and I really doubt they will do anything. I have owned three homes in TV and have had cracks in the lanai and garage in two of them. The cost for making these repairs is minimal but if there were a forced repair throughout TV there would be thousands. If you can afford to own a home in TV then repairing these cracks is a small expense.
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