Sinkhole Just Opened Up 5/21/18

[Lottoguy]

Lots of rain can make this happen!

A sinkhole opened up in The Villages 5/21/18 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/cXo4DBZ0U8g)

[Henryk]

Lots of rain can make this happen!

A sinkhole opened up in The Villages 5/21/18 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/cXo4DBZ0U8g)

Where is it?

[jojo]

I thought I posted this link to the live helicopter coverage by WESH News.

Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/wesh2news/videos/10156415623688748/)

[Lottoguy]

Calumet Grove area. Check the update video I just posted. This is in the exact same location as the last one. The house was already vacated.

[Topspinmo]

It started on Sunday if you see the post I posted. Looks like Along the line of the repaired rotted out transfer tubes which failed in the retention pond.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Shhhhh! They're not sinkholes, they're just deep ground depressions. :lipsrsealed:

[peggyb]

Isn’t this the same area that just had a water main break? If that is the case I would think the villages should take some responsibility..

[Topspinmo]

Shhhhh! They're not sinkholes, they're just deep ground depressions. :lipsrsealed:

I think your Right? Man made???

[Topspinmo]

Isn’t this the same area that just had a water main break? If that is the case I would think the villages should take some responsibility..

No, not the same area, the water main break was about mile and half away on Legacy lane.

[Bjeanj]

Worrisome.

[Lottoguy]

Yes, it is related to that tube. You can see it sticking up on the retention pond.

[Lottoguy]

I don't know about that. But, about 100 yards from the hole you can see a large tube sticking up in the retention pond. One of the people on site think this might be the culprit.

[bagboy]

Shhhhh! They're not sinkholes, they're just deep ground depressions. :lipsrsealed:

It was reported today that engineers and district officials are saying "they are not" sinkholes but rather washouts. That made me wonder, is that a good thing or bad thing? for the homeowners with respect to an insurance claim.

[ColdNoMore]

It was reported today that engineers and district officials are saying "they are not" sinkholes but rather washouts. That made me wonder, is that a good thing or bad thing? for the homeowners with respect to an insurance claim.

Sinkhole insurance...versus flood insurance.

[bagboy]

Sinkhole insurance...versus flood insurance.

What's flooded? I might have missed that...

[ColdNoMore]

What's flooded? I might have missed that...
I was simply going by what YOU said ("washouts")...

It was reported today that engineers and district officials are saying "they are not" sinkholes but rather washouts.

Flood Coverage vs Water Damage – What’s the difference? - AISinsured.com (http://aisinsured.com/insurance-tips/flood-coverage-vs-water-damage-whats-the-difference)

Flood coverage is also for any type of flooding event including a water main break, swimming pool collapses and floods your home, blocked culverts back up water into your home, drains, etc.


:shrug:

[Chi33]

This is near the Villages VA clinic and that Publix.

[Topspinmo]

This is near the Villages VA clinic and that Publix.

Pretty far from there, but too west of Lopez country club off calumet Ave. behind the postal station.

[thetruth]

Sink hole is the surface collapsing into a void. A void? It can't suddenly happen in one rain. If, it was always a void that fails would it not have shown up with geological tests-RADAR-SONAR?
Oh, and I BELIEVE, it is a permanent record and would reduce the value of your home. When, we bought our home, we were offered an other, ALSO NEW, place when the ssales lady TOLD US, the property had a restored sink hole. If, I recall it was offered at about 10% less.

[graciegirl]

I understand that, most of us fear sinkholes, and some want to blame someone..

Why Do Sinkholes Form in Florida? | WUSF News (http://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/post/why-do-sinkholes-form-florida)

map of sinkholes in florida - Bing (https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=LtyaVh6U&id=392F9C1F17707D2B4BAAB0036C7D58DC40D88FC5&thid=OIP.LtyaVh6U4PM9LrlwRtU-MAHaHT&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fchampionfoundation.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2Fflorida_sinkhole_p oster.jpg&exph=621&expw=630&q=map+of+sinkholes+in+florida&simid=608010691033367443&selectedindex=7&ajaxhist=0)

[Chi33]

It was this close to the VA. That is close IMHO.

[manaboutown]

Although sinkholes are naturally occurring in areas of Karst topography. Karst - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karst), even in desert areas https://geoinfo.nmt.edu/publications/periodicals/earthmatters/16/n1/em_v16_n1.pdf

they can be possibly be created by companies which draw large amounts of water from underground. Experts warn of risk of sinkhole in popular New Mexico area - KVIA (http://www.kvia.com/news/new-mexico/experts-warn-of-risk-of-sinkhole-in-popular-new-mexico-area/694701189)

One just occurred on the White House lawn. Sinkhole engulfs lawn outside White House press briefing room - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/sinkhole-engulfs-lawn-white-house-press-briefing-room-article-1.4004902)

[graciegirl]

Although sinkholes are naturally occurring in areas of Karst topography. Karst - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karst), even in desert areas https://geoinfo.nmt.edu/publications/periodicals/earthmatters/16/n1/em_v16_n1.pdf

they can be possibly be created by companies which draw large amounts of water from underground. Experts warn of risk of sinkhole in popular New Mexico area - KVIA (http://www.kvia.com/news/new-mexico/experts-warn-of-risk-of-sinkhole-in-popular-new-mexico-area/694701189)

One just occurred on the White House lawn. Sinkhole engulfs lawn outside White House press briefing room - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/sinkhole-engulfs-lawn-white-house-press-briefing-room-article-1.4004902)

I think that if sinkholes are something really troubling, really frightening to people they shouldn't move to Florida. I don't think we can DO anything to prevent them and I don't see that anyone is to blame.


map of sinkholes in florida - Bing (https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=LtyaVh6U&id=392F9C1F17707D2B4BAAB0036C7D58DC40D88FC5&thid=OIP.LtyaVh6U4PM9LrlwRtU-MAHaHT&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fchampionfoundation.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2Fflorida_sinkhole_p oster.jpg&exph=621&expw=630&q=map+of+sinkholes+in+florida&simid=608010691033367443&selectedindex=7&ajaxhist=0)

http://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/post/why-do-sinkholes-form-florida

[manaboutown]

I think that if sinkholes are something really troubling, really frightening to people they shouldn't move to Florida. I don't think we can DO anything to prevent them and I don't see anyone is to blame.


map of sinkholes in florida - Bing (https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=LtyaVh6U&id=392F9C1F17707D2B4BAAB0036C7D58DC40D88FC5&thid=OIP.LtyaVh6U4PM9LrlwRtU-MAHaHT&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fchampionfoundation.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2Fflorida_sinkhole_p oster.jpg&exph=621&expw=630&q=map+of+sinkholes+in+florida&simid=608010691033367443&selectedindex=7&ajaxhist=0)

I think I would much rather live with potential sinkhole issues and hurricane threats than on an island which is the top of a volcano! Hawaii volcano: Lava flows from Kilauea reach edge of power plant (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/05/22/hawaii-volcano-lava-kilauea-power-plant/632294002/)

[manaboutown]

I don't think we can DO anything to prevent them and I don't see that anyone is to blame.

Do any human activities induce sinkholes?

Sure. Sometimes in karst areas [irregular landscapes formed when soluble rocks like limestone dissolve], when you drill a well—looking for water or for mining purposes—as you're pulling water out of the ground, you're lowering the groundwater table. That creates almost a toilet-flushing effect. You're lowering that groundwater level, and the soil that was sitting above just falls out. That's one way.

We also induce sinkholes when we start putting up parking lots and buildings and changing what we call the hydrologic regime. Instead of the water naturally soaking into the ground, it's now running off and being concentrated—being put into the ground at one point. (See "Guatemala Sinkholes Created by Humans, Not Nature.")

From. Why Sinkholes Open Up (https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130812-florida-sinkhole-disney-world-explainer-urban-science/)

4-Health Springs -- impacts of land use in a karst region

Health Springs serves as one of many examples where land-use activities in a karst terrane affect ground-water quality. The region contains coastal springs and karst uplands that are characterized by internal drainage and variable confinement between the surficial aquifer system and the Upper Floridan aquifer (fig. 9). Land use upgradient of the spring was used historically for citrus agriculture but at present includes an extensive golf course, a wastewater treatment facility, and residential and commercial properties. Activities at the wastewater treatment plant have included land application of dried sludge, spray irrigation and ponding of treated effluent. The site is presently planned for a county park; however, elevated nutrient and bacteria concentrations in the spring discharge have delayed this action.

Figure 9. - Sinkholes provide a direct hydrologic link between karst uplands and Health Springs along the coast.
Figure 9. - Sinkholes provide a direct hydrologic link between karst uplands and Health Springs along the coast (from Tihansky, 1999).
In April 1988, several cover-collapse sinkholes developed in an area where effluent from a wastewater treatment plant is sprayed for irrigation. Ponding of the effluent occurred while water levels were at their seasonal low. The maximum seasonal head difference combined with surface loading likely contributed to the formation of several sinkholes which drained the effluent into the ground-water system. Within several days of sinkhole formation, discharge at Health Springs, 2,500 ft downgradient, increased from 2 ft3/sec to 16 ft3/sec (Trommer 1992). A dye-tracer study confirmed the existence of a preferential ground-water flow path linking the upland spray field with the spring (Tihansky and Trommer, 1994). Dye injected into a well located in the sprayfield was detected in the spring water and in a well adjacent to the spring (fig. 10). Ground-water velocity was about 160 ft per day (ft/d) which is 250 times greater than estimates of the regional ground-water velocity (0.65 ft/d) in this area.
Background nitrate concentrations for ground water in Florida generally are less than 0.02 milligrams per liter (mg/L). Water samples collected at Health Springs since 1982 have nitrate concentrations ranging from 2 to more than 10 mg/L. These elevated values reflect the impact of land use in the spring's recharge area.

From Karst Features and Hydrogeology in West-central Florida-A Field Perspective (https://water.usgs.gov/ogw/karst/kigconference/abt_karstfeatures.htm)

[Topspinmo]

It was reported today that engineers and district officials are saying "they are not" sinkholes but rather washouts. That made me wonder, is that a good thing or bad thing? for the homeowners with respect to an insurance claim.

Yes there are lots of many man made washouts (rotted drainages pipes which have static pressure form water weight in the pond are man made which saturate underground till it reaches cavity and collapse) that natural sinkholes are scapegoated:ohdear: all my opinion of course? And I can have an opinion:popcorn:

[pauld315]

I just got a text from my brother-in-law in Arizona asking if we were all OK. Apparently, NBC National News carried a story on this today and , who could have guessed, made it sound like the whole Villages was being consumed and that some big lake here was emptied.Expect calls to come in from your relatives.

[graciegirl]

Yes there are lots of many man made washouts (rotted drainages pipes which have static pressure form water weight in the pond are man made which saturate underground till it reaches cavity and collapse) that natural sinkholes are scapegoated:ohdear: all my opinion of course? And I can have an opinion:popcorn:

I don't think PVC pipe rots. PVC has been used in Florida since 1975.

[GoodLife]

It was this close to the VA. That is close IMHO.


You need to get your facts straight. Your map is wrong, sinkhole was on McLawren not McAlpin. That's about 1.5 to 2 miles from the VA Hospital.


Here is a map from 2017 of reported sinkholes in the Villages. Zoom in and look for the yellow dots.

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/attachments/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/70416d1500560010-plotted-where-villages-sinkholes-have-occurred-sinkholes_ground-stabilization_villages-map-2017-0718-pdf


It shows 9 sinkholes north of 466, 15 sinkholes between 466 and 466A, and 3 sinkholes south of 466A. They happen all over the place and most likely your home is within 1 to 2 miles of where one has happened. Not that scary unless it happens next door.

[bagboy]

Yes there are lots of many man made washouts (rotted drainages pipes which have static pressure form water weight in the pond are man made which saturate underground till it reaches cavity and collapse) that natural sinkholes are scapegoated:ohdear: all my opinion of course? And I can have an opinion:popcorn:

I agree, and I know washouts don't necessarily equate with flooding. In my opinion, I think the engineers and districts put the affected homeowners behind the eight ball with their insurance companies by calling them washouts, and not sinkholes. Fingers crossed for the home owners.

[Chi33]

[QUOTE=GoodLife;1546687]You need to get your facts straight. Your map is wrong, sinkhole was on McLawren not McAlpin. That's about 1.5 to 2 miles from the VA Hospital.


I got my info from here... (I didn't visit the location personally). With the info I saw, that is how I checked the map. Oh, and get your facts straight, it isn't a VA Hospital, it is a VA clinic. And I looked at that map you posted and where all the homes near Morse going to Rohan? Sure wasn't a 2017 map. Not even a 2014 map.

[Topspinmo]

I don't think PVC pipe rots. PVC has been used in Florida since 1975.

Well, them must of added metal tubes on the end, CAUSE you can See the rotted out street drain outlet in the pond basin on the west side.

[manaboutown]

The epidemic of sinkholes in The Villages made Smithsonian Magazine.

"Man-made development, it turns out, is the most persistent factor for increased sinkholes. Earth-moving equipment scrapes away protective layers of soil; parking lots and paved roads divert rainwater to new infiltration points; the weight of new buildings presses down on weak spots; buried infrastructure can lead to leaking pipes; and, perhaps most of all, the pumping of groundwater disrupts the delicate water table that keeps the karst stable. “Our preliminary research indicates that the risk of sinkholes is 11 times greater in developed areas than undeveloped ones,” says George Veni, the executive director of the National Cave and Karst Research Institute who conducted a field study in Sinkhole Alley."

Another huge factor is pumping water from the aquifer. From the same Smithsonian article...

"And The Villages has been in development overdrive. It was the fastest growing metropolitan area in the US. four years in a row (2013-16), and it’s still in the top 10. In his 2008 book Leisureville, journalist Andrew Blechman reported that The Villages would “finish its build-out—an industry term for the point when a project is complete—in the very near future,” peaking at “110,000 residents.” Yet a decade later, the population has sped past 125,000. Last year The Villages reported a 93 percent boom in housing construction and a new purchase of land that will yield up to 20,000 homes. Another land deal for 8,000 new homes is nearing completion.

Those new homes will bring more golf courses, and The Villages already has 49 of them (#2 per capita among all U.S. counties). The retention ponds built on those courses can leak into the karst and trigger sinkholes. Irrigating those 49 courses and the tens of thousands of lawns in The Villages is also a significant risk factor. In his 2016 book Oh, Florida, veteran reporter Craig Pittman reveals how his friend who worked at the Daily Sun said the staff was never to write two things: 1) anything complimentary of Barack Obama, and 2) “The numerous sinkholes that open up because of all the water being pumped from the aquifer to keep lawns and golf courses green.”

In a scathing column, Orlando Sentinel’s Lauren Ritchie notes how the fledgling community in 1991 had a water permit to use 65 millions gallons a year, but by 2017 that rate reached “a stunning 12.4 billion gallons a year.” The local aquifer in Sumter County is also threatened by a controversial plan by a bottling company to pump nearly a half-million gallons of water a day—and double that rate during peak months. Despite the protests of Villagers worried that a falling water table will spur sinkholes, pumping will begin soon."

The Science Behind Florida’s Sinkhole Epidemic
|
Science | Smithsonian (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/science-behind-floridas-sinkhole-epidemic-180969158/)

[ColdNoMore]

Looks like the epidemic of sinkholes in The Villages made Smithsonian Magazine. Wow! The Science Behind Florida’s Sinkhole Epidemic
|
Science | Smithsonian (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/science-behind-floridas-sinkhole-epidemic-180969158/)

Any bets on whether the Happy Paper will report this national story...by an institution as well respected as the Smithsonian? :D

[manaboutown]

Any bets on whether the Happy Paper will report this national story...by an institution as well respected as the Smithsonian? :D

As my mother used to tell me "Wait and see." :popcorn:

[ColdNoMore]

As my mother used to tell me "Wait and see." :popcorn:
Mine always said...



"Quit saying...do you wanna bet?!"



:D

[graciegirl]

...mmmm]

[stwalker717]

A bigger question than where to get sink hole coverage is what is causing the problem in The Villages. These holes started from a culvert that was either installed wrong or with defective material which caused an underground water leak which lead to a large erosion problem which made sink holes.
I am no engineer, but when large amounts of water leak from drainage pipes your going to have major erosion. In the southern part of The Villages I am told they now use concrete pipe, in the old section they use steel. All street drains that can be are interconnected in The Villages, and feed into their man made ponds. Look at your neighborhood, these large culvert style pipes run underground in between many of our houses.
So the question is what is going on? Were the drains in Calumet installed wrong?? Did The Villages use cheap foreign piping that is corroding and collapsing in places 15 years after installation. Is this an isolated incidence or should we all be worried??? BIG QUESTION TO ME? They admitted fault was theirs in Calumet, but really haven't explained the how and why. Look at the pictures all over the web. This was a defective drain that caused a man made sink hole. I do not believe this is mother natures work!

[manaboutown]

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/i-know-many-you-detest-lauren-ritchie-133889/?highlight=Lauren+Ritchie

Of course I abhor her attitude about TV but she competently uncovers a lot of what is really happening in the area that would be otherwise overlooked and/or swept under the rug. Smithsonian Magazine saw fit to quote her on water use. I respect her report on that particular matter.

[graciegirl]

////

[ColdNoMore]

Of course I abhor her attitude about TV but she competently uncovers a lot of what is really happening in the area that would be otherwise overlooked and/or swept under the rug. Smithsonian Magazine saw fit to quote her on water use. I respect her report on that particular matter.

I just got through reading the entire thread about the columnist linked above.

It's patently obvious that she's an investigative journalist/columnist, which doesn't have to mean that they cannot also show their own opinion.

I challenge anyone, to point to ANY television/print, journalist/columnist...that DOESN'T interject their own opinion(s).

Having said that, we also all have the ability to agree/disagree with a writer's/commentator's opinion...but we don't have the right to argue with their actual facts.

Her writing on the water amounts and the bond issue...were pure fact.

Her writing on the morality/immorality of the deceased developer...was pure opinion.

For those that become apoplectic at even a scent, of any criticism, of any part of TV...I can see why they abhor her.

One thing is for sure though, you'll never find out about the facts she's uncovered...if you just depend on the Daily Sun.

As for me, I prefer facts and the whole story (with proof)...at which point I will then develop my overall 'opinion' of a certain subject.

Primarily because, I've never been real fond...of Ostriches anyway. :D

As for sinkholes...that's a deep subject. :1rotfl:




And y'all can save it, as I know that Ostriches don't really stick their head in the sand...and it's just an urban myth.

[manaboutown]

Rational answers and hopefully engineering remedies depend upon understanding the science of the situation as revealed in the Smithsonian Magazine article, sources cited therein and other published research. Making obviously clearly refutable statements about the subject with religious-like fervor is irrational and nonsensical. Attacking the messenger is callous.

Nor am I an ostrich. I simply want to know and understand the facts so as to be able to rationally proceed.

[ColdNoMore]

Rational answers and perhaps remedies depend upon understanding the science of the situation as revealed in the Smithsonian Magazine article, sources cited therein and other published research. Making unsubstantiated statements about the subject with religious-like fervor is nonsensical. Attacking the messenger is callous.

Nor am I an ostrich. I just want to know and understand the facts to rationally evaluate how to proceed.

Ahh, it's all good.


'Build-out' is coming soon...so it's all moot anyway.




:D

[manaboutown]

'Build-out' is coming soon...so it's all moot anyway.




:D

Yep, only what, 28,000 homes left to build on the land currently in inventory?

:22yikes::beer3:

[graciegirl]

I live dangerously. I just got up. My dear sweet husband placed a cup of coffee with half and half and a freshly baked donut with cream inside right next to where I plopped down here at the computer.

There is Zero, Zilch in the rain gauge. It has only sprinkled all night long and the several inches of rain predicted from Alberto have not started. The sun is shining. It is another beautiful day in The Villages.

I will soon sally forth to the Publix and purchase a nice chuck roast to fix tomorrow for the holiday. I will see a lot of older people who are busily moving around this beautifully run place.

I am so lucky to live here.