A Word to the Gun Ban Crowd

[Carl in Tampa]

Every time there is a mass shooting, the same old sides divide up and expostulate about their proposed solutions for preventing future shootings.

Today, I hope to bring a degree of rational realization about the real world to the Gun Ban crowd.

But first, let us play a "what if" game. Pretend with me that I have a magic wand that will allow me to simply wave it and at Noon tomorrow every gun in America that is not possessed by a law enforcement officer or a member of the military will disappear forever.

That's at Noon. By Midnight there will be thousands of guns in criminal hands across America, and a thriving Black Market for the sale and purchase of these guns will be in place.

How can this happen, you ask. It's simple. Individual police officers will be assaulted, knifed, of killed, in order to take their sidearms, and their cars will be broken into to obtain their rifles or shotguns.

Also, National Guard Armories will be burglarized to obtain weapons of war, and rogue military custodians of similar articles will be selling them. (There is a Black Market for hand grenades.)

Now, enough of fantasy. Assume that a law were to be passed banning personal possession of firearms, which is so unlikely that it might be considered fantasy. But, if such a law were to be passed, there are multi-millions of firearms that would not be turned in for destruction. They would enter the underground Black Market economy and there are not enough police officers in the United States to effectively monitor or enforce such a ban.

So, face it --- you cannot rid America of guns.

Aha, the anti-gunners respond. At least we can ban “assault weapons” and “high capacity magazines.” We can make the remaining guns be less effective killing machines.

Well, not really.

Did you ever hear of Sgt. Alvin York? While a Corporal in World War I, he was credited with killing at least 25 German soldiers in a confrontation where they were trying to kill him. He was armed with a bolt action rifle adopted by the Army in 1903 and capable of firing only five rounds before being reloaded.

And, in addition there is still that pesky Second Amendment. People are entitled to own firearms as a right of the individual. The Supreme Court says so.

SO, please put your brains in gear and start thinking of some creative ways to prevent shootings at schools, or to mitigate their effects when they do occur. No solution is going to be 100% effective, but we need to work together in developing new ideas for school security.

Gun bans is not the answer.

[billethkid]

Every time there is a mass shooting, the same old sides divide up and expostulate about their proposed solutions for preventing future shootings.

Today, I hope to bring a degree of rational realization about the real world to the Gun Ban crowd.

But first, let us play a "what if" game. Pretend with me that I have a magic wand that will allow me to simply wave it and at Noon tomorrow every gun in America that is not possessed by a law enforcement officer or a member of the military will disappear forever.

That's at Noon. By Midnight there will be thousands of guns in criminal hands across America, and a thriving Black Market for the sale and purchase of these guns will be in place.

How can this happen, you ask. It's simple. Individual police officers will be assaulted, knifed, of killed, in order to take their sidearms, and their cars will be broken into to obtain their rifles or shotguns.

Also, National Guard Armories will be burglarized to obtain weapons of war, and rogue military custodians of similar articles will be selling them. (There is a Black Market for hand grenades.

Now, enough of fantasy. Assume that a law were to be passed banning personal possession of firearms, which is so unlikely that it might be considered fantasy. But, if such a law were to be passed, there are multi-millions of firearms that would not be turned in for destruction. They would enter the underground Black Market economy and there are not enough police officers in the United States to effectively monitor or enforce such a ban.

So, face it --- you cannot rid America of guns.

Aha, the anti-gunners respond. At least we can ban “assault weapons” and “high capacity magazines.” We can make the remaining guns be less effective killing machines.

Well, not really.

Did you ever hear of Sgt. Alvin York? While a Corporal in World War II, he was credited with killing at least 25 German soldiers in a confrontation where they were trying to kill him. He was armed with a bolt action rifle adopted by the Army in 1903 and capable of firing only five rounds before being reloaded.

And, in addition there is still that pesky Second Amendment. People are entitled to own firearms as a right of the individual. The Supreme Court says so.

SO, please put your brains in gear and start thinking of some creative ways to prevent shootings at schools, or to mitigate their effects when they do occur. No solution is going to be 100% effective, but we need to work together in developing new ideas for school security.

Gun bans is not the answer.

Thank you very much Carl!

[kcrazorbackfan]

Every time there is a mass shooting, the same old sides divide up and expostulate about their proposed solutions for preventing future shootings.

Today, I hope to bring a degree of rational realization about the real world to the Gun Ban crowd.

But first, let us play a "what if" game. Pretend with me that I have a magic wand that will allow me to simply wave it and at Noon tomorrow every gun in America that is not possessed by a law enforcement officer or a member of the military will disappear forever.

That's at Noon. By Midnight there will be thousands of guns in criminal hands across America, and a thriving Black Market for the sale and purchase of these guns will be in place.

How can this happen, you ask. It's simple. Individual police officers will be assaulted, knifed, of killed, in order to take their sidearms, and their cars will be broken into to obtain their rifles or shotguns.

Also, National Guard Armories will be burglarized to obtain weapons of war, and rogue military custodians of similar articles will be selling them. (There is a Black Market for hand grenades.

Now, enough of fantasy. Assume that a law were to be passed banning personal possession of firearms, which is so unlikely that it might be considered fantasy. But, if such a law were to be passed, there are multi-millions of firearms that would not be turned in for destruction. They would enter the underground Black Market economy and there are not enough police officers in the United States to effectively monitor or enforce such a ban.

So, face it --- you cannot rid America of guns.

Aha, the anti-gunners respond. At least we can ban “assault weapons” and “high capacity magazines.” We can make the remaining guns be less effective killing machines.

Well, not really.

Did you ever hear of Sgt. Alvin York? While a Corporal in World War II, he was credited with killing at least 25 German soldiers in a confrontation where they were trying to kill him. He was armed with a bolt action rifle adopted by the Army in 1903 and capable of firing only five rounds before being reloaded.

And, in addition there is still that pesky Second Amendment. People are entitled to own firearms as a right of the individual. The Supreme Court says so.

SO, please put your brains in gear and start thinking of some creative ways to prevent shootings at schools, or to mitigate their effects when they do occur. No solution is going to be 100% effective, but we need to work together in developing new ideas for school security.

Gun bans is not the answer.

Extremely great post.

The problem is that most people want the simplest, cheapest solution, which is gun control. They gasp at the thought of putting more armed LEO's in school; they gasp at the thought of spending the money (aka taxes) to fund systems (locked doors w/ key card access and/or metal detectors, etc.) at schools; they gasp at the thought of putting armed school personnel in schools.

What parents really need to be doing is telling their kids they must say something if they see or think someone is doing something wrong.

Gun control, new gun laws and most definitely, gun bans is not the answer.

[Trayderjoe]

Thanks Carl! Good post.

I don't know if you have seen this video (a commercial may run first) (link (https://www.wwaytv3.com/2018/04/10/nc-mans-speech-at-city-council-meeting-about-gun-rights-goes-viral/)) of Mark Robinson speaking at a council meeting in Greensboro North Carolina regarding the possibly of canceling a gun show. I must admit, he inspired me to become more vocal as I am, as Mark said, "the majority- the law abiding citizen".

[Nucky]

Wow. Mark Robinson, said a mouth full and was on the money as are the others who shared on this thread so far. There is no fight and guns will not be taken away from good people. Everyone from the gun seller to the gun buyer knows how to secure their gun so it never falls into the hands of somebody with the Stability Of Jello. No mistakes can be made. It's a tired and repeated story but necessary to be repeated over and over again until a solution is found.

Protect the Children at any cost. I'll pay higher taxes no problemo.

[ColdNoMore]

:1rotfl:

Great try at a red herring.

Almost NO ONE is saying..."Ban All Guns." :oops:

It's simply an attempt to scare gullible people...and sell more guns. :ohdear:

[Trayderjoe]

:1rotfl:

Great try at a red herring.

Almost NO ONE is saying..."Ban All Guns." :oops:

It's simply an attempt to scare gullible people...and sell more guns. :ohdear:


"Almost no one". Like Senator Dianne Feinstein who is on public record for wanting to ban all guns? And continues to try and push legislation to neutralize the second amendment?

So, what new gun laws will prevent more killings? Haven't heard one yet, nor do I expect too.

[ColdNoMore]

"Almost no one". Like Senator Dianne Feinstein who is on public record for wanting to ban all guns? And continues to try and push legislation to neutralize the second amendment?

So, what new gun laws will prevent more killings? Haven't heard one yet, nor do I expect too.

:1rotfl:

NRA's Chris Cox falsely says Dianne Feinstein wanted to take 'all of your guns' | PolitiFact (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/oct/08/chris-cox/nras-chris-cox-falsely-says-dianne-feinstein-wante/)


What, the NRA...again?! :oops:


Facts Matter

[Fraugoofy]

Every time there is a mass shooting, the same old sides divide up and expostulate about their proposed solutions for preventing future shootings.

Today, I hope to bring a degree of rational realization about the real world to the Gun Ban crowd.

But first, let us play a "what if" game. Pretend with me that I have a magic wand that will allow me to simply wave it and at Noon tomorrow every gun in America that is not possessed by a law enforcement officer or a member of the military will disappear forever.

That's at Noon. By Midnight there will be thousands of guns in criminal hands across America, and a thriving Black Market for the sale and purchase of these guns will be in place.

How can this happen, you ask. It's simple. Individual police officers will be assaulted, knifed, of killed, in order to take their sidearms, and their cars will be broken into to obtain their rifles or shotguns.

Also, National Guard Armories will be burglarized to obtain weapons of war, and rogue military custodians of similar articles will be selling them. (There is a Black Market for hand grenades.)

Now, enough of fantasy. Assume that a law were to be passed banning personal possession of firearms, which is so unlikely that it might be considered fantasy. But, if such a law were to be passed, there are multi-millions of firearms that would not be turned in for destruction. They would enter the underground Black Market economy and there are not enough police officers in the United States to effectively monitor or enforce such a ban.

So, face it --- you cannot rid America of guns.

Aha, the anti-gunners respond. At least we can ban “assault weapons” and “high capacity magazines.” We can make the remaining guns be less effective killing machines.

Well, not really.

Did you ever hear of Sgt. Alvin York? While a Corporal in World War I, he was credited with killing at least 25 German soldiers in a confrontation where they were trying to kill him. He was armed with a bolt action rifle adopted by the Army in 1903 and capable of firing only five rounds before being reloaded.

And, in addition there is still that pesky Second Amendment. People are entitled to own firearms as a right of the individual. The Supreme Court says so.

SO, please put your brains in gear and start thinking of some creative ways to prevent shootings at schools, or to mitigate their effects when they do occur. No solution is going to be 100% effective, but we need to work together in developing new ideas for school security.

Gun bans is not the answer.You could also change the title to read "ban drugs". Same logic applies.

Sent from my SM-N920R4 using Tapatalk

[tomwed]

Maybe I forgot to push send or maybe I was deleted. Most children are bused. How would you protect them before they get to school?

[chuckinca]

Simple

Ban all Guns.


When is this slaughter going to end?


.

[ColdNoMore]

Maybe I forgot to push send or maybe I was deleted. Most children are bused. How would you protect them before they get to school?

You're not going crazy, that post is in another thread.

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/protect-our-childen-263734/index8.html#post1546096

Not that I've ever had to click on my name...to find one of my posts. :angel:

[tophcfa]

How come people don't start a band all cars movement every time some wack job uses one to purposely run over a bunch of innocent people?

[Taltarzac725]

:1rotfl:

Great try at a red herring.

Almost NO ONE is saying..."Ban All Guns." :oops:

It's simply an attempt to scare gullible people...and sell more guns. :ohdear:

Right on target. Practical approaches to gun control for the US. Crippling lawsuits against arms manufacturers would be a solution as that worked with tobacco for a while. They have modified the manufacture of tobacco quite but that is to be expected as where there is a need people find a way of fulfilling it like with booze and the prohibition.

Stop the sale of guns in gun shows unless they are very heavily regulated.

Get rid of the sale of guns that any reasonable person would see as a battlefield weapon.

[tomwed]

You're not going crazy, that post is in another thread.

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/protect-our-childen-263734/index8.html#post1546096

Not that I've ever had to click on my name...to find one of my posts. :angel: \\\\\\\\\\\\\

[Trayderjoe]

:1rotfl:

NRA's Chris Cox falsely says Dianne Feinstein wanted to take 'all of your guns' | PolitiFact (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/oct/08/chris-cox/nras-chris-cox-falsely-says-dianne-feinstein-wante/)


What, the NRA...again?! :oops:


Facts Matter

The link was in regards to the Chris Fox statement about her assault weapons ban. I was referring to:

"Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of Americans to feel safe."

Dianne Feinstein (US Senator, D-CA); quoted by the Associated Press Newswire, 1993-11-18

and there is also:

"The national guard fulfills the the militia mentioned in the Second Amendment. Citizens no longer need to protect the states or themselves."

Dianne Feinstein (US Senator, D-CA)

And I will also add in this quote from Bobby Rush, U.S. Representative from Illinois:

“My staff and I right now are working on a comprehensive gun-control bill. We don’t have all the details, but for instance, regulating the sale and purchase of bullets. Ultimately, I would like to see the manufacture and possession of handguns banned except for military and police use. But that’s the endgame. And in the meantime, there are some specific things that we can do with legislation.” Chicago Tribune, December 5, 1999

By the by, still haven't seen what new gun laws will prevent the school shootings.

[Kenswing]

Right on target. Practical approaches to gun control for the US. Crippling lawsuits against arms manufacturers would be a solution as that worked with tobacco for a while. They have modified the manufacture of tobacco quite but that is to be expected as where there is a need people find a way of fulfilling it like with booze and the prohibition.

Stop the sale of guns in gun shows unless they are very heavily regulated.

Get rid of the sale of guns that any reasonable person would see as a battlefield weapon.So you are in favor of an all out ban then because the military carries everything from a 9mm pistol, 12ga shotgun, bolt action rifle and semiautomatic rifle into combat.

Here's a list of individual served weapons of the U.S. military. It covers every category of weapon commonly owned by the general public. List of individual weapons of the U.S. Armed Forces - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individual_weapons_of_the_U.S._Armed_Force s)

[billethkid]

Right on target. Practical approaches to gun control for the US. Crippling lawsuits against arms manufacturers would be a solution as that worked with tobacco for a while. They have modified the manufacture of tobacco quite but that is to be expected as where there is a need people find a way of fulfilling it like with booze and the prohibition.

Stop the sale of guns in gun shows unless they are very heavily regulated.

Get rid of the sale of guns that any reasonable person would see as a battlefield weapon.

And who would that be?
I know!!! Any one of the 99% of law abiding gun owners in the USA.

[Trayderjoe]

Right on target. Practical approaches to gun control for the US. Crippling lawsuits against arms manufacturers would be a solution as that worked with tobacco for a while. They have modified the manufacture of tobacco quite but that is to be expected as where there is a need people find a way of fulfilling it like with booze and the prohibition.

Stop the sale of guns in gun shows unless they are very heavily regulated.

Get rid of the sale of guns that any reasonable person would see as a battlefield weapon.

Please elaborate at to what "very heavily regulated" entails?

[dillywho]

Every time there is a mass shooting, the same old sides divide up and expostulate about their proposed solutions for preventing future shootings.

Today, I hope to bring a degree of rational realization about the real world to the Gun Ban crowd.

But first, let us play a "what if" game. Pretend with me that I have a magic wand that will allow me to simply wave it and at Noon tomorrow every gun in America that is not possessed by a law enforcement officer or a member of the military will disappear forever.

That's at Noon. By Midnight there will be thousands of guns in criminal hands across America, and a thriving Black Market for the sale and purchase of these guns will be in place.

How can this happen, you ask. It's simple. Individual police officers will be assaulted, knifed, of killed, in order to take their sidearms, and their cars will be broken into to obtain their rifles or shotguns.

Also, National Guard Armories will be burglarized to obtain weapons of war, and rogue military custodians of similar articles will be selling them. (There is a Black Market for hand grenades.)

Now, enough of fantasy. Assume that a law were to be passed banning personal possession of firearms, which is so unlikely that it might be considered fantasy. But, if such a law were to be passed, there are multi-millions of firearms that would not be turned in for destruction. They would enter the underground Black Market economy and there are not enough police officers in the United States to effectively monitor or enforce such a ban.

So, face it --- you cannot rid America of guns.

Aha, the anti-gunners respond. At least we can ban “assault weapons” and “high capacity magazines.” We can make the remaining guns be less effective killing machines.

Well, not really.

Did you ever hear of Sgt. Alvin York? While a Corporal in World War I, he was credited with killing at least 25 German soldiers in a confrontation where they were trying to kill him. He was armed with a bolt action rifle adopted by the Army in 1903 and capable of firing only five rounds before being reloaded.

And, in addition there is still that pesky Second Amendment. People are entitled to own firearms as a right of the individual. The Supreme Court says so.

SO, please put your brains in gear and start thinking of some creative ways to prevent shootings at schools, or to mitigate their effects when they do occur. No solution is going to be 100% effective, but we need to work together in developing new ideas for school security.

Gun bans is not the answer.


Thank you for your logic and insight. I might add another thought on those wanting to ban firearms. Remember the words in the '50's song, "Robbing people with a zipgun..." ? I remember zipguns, homemade out of common materials. Smuggling of guns would just add to the coffers of the drug smugglers, too. Killers will always get guns somehow when guns are their weapons of choice.

[dillywho]

Simple

Ban all Guns.


When is this slaughter going to end?


.

Murder and street drugs are already banned. How's that working out? Oh, that's right; it's not!

[redwitch]

There are no easy solutions. There are no compromises that will make either side happy. Almost total banning of guns has worked in other nations. Not so sure it would work here. Some things I would like to see are stricter and more thorough background checks, no bump stocks allowed, no military grade “assault” type weapons in the hands of common citizens, no metal-piercing bullets, serious gun training and testing for all who buy weapons. Anyone convicted of a DUI should be banned from owning guns — if you can’t stop yourself from getting behind the wheel of your car while high, you really can’t be trusted to keep nor use a gun safely in my mind.

Parents that allow easy access to weapons should face the exact same charges as their children. You know your kids and, if you don’t, shame on you. Check their social media. Know what games they are playing and restrict access to those games you deem inappropriate. Ditto for movies and television programs.

The idea of metal detectors, armed guards, etc. at schools nauseates me. However, there is no denying it has become a necessity. Our children deserve to be feel safe at school. So, do what it takes to make that happen NOW.

I’m tired of hearing about kids shooting kids because a gun was left laying around. I’m sick of drive by killings. I’m really sick and tired of school shootings. Get the media to quit publicizing names and photos of shooters. The story can be told without that information.

There are things we can and should do today. First and foremost, PROTECT OUR CHILDREN.

[ColdNoMore]

There are no easy solutions. There are no compromises that will make either side happy. Almost total banning of guns has worked in other nations. Not so sure it would work here. Some things I would like to see are stricter and more thorough background checks, no bump stocks allowed, no military grade “assault” type weapons in the hands of common citizens, no metal-piercing bullets, serious gun training and testing for all who buy weapons. Anyone convicted of a DUI should be banned from owning guns — if you can’t stop yourself from getting behind the wheel of your car while high, you really can’t be trusted to keep nor use a gun safely in my mind.

Parents that allow easy access to weapons should face the exact same charges as their children. You know your kids and, if you don’t, shame on you. Check their social media. Know what games they are playing and restrict access to those games you deem inappropriate. Ditto for movies and television programs.

The idea of metal detectors, armed guards, etc. at schools nauseates me. However, there is no denying it has become a necessity. Our children deserve to be feel safe at school. So, do what it takes to make that happen NOW.

I’m tired of hearing about kids shooting kids because a gun was left laying around. I’m sick of drive by killings. I’m really sick and tired of school shootings. Get the media to quit publicizing names and photos of shooters. The story can be told without that information.

There are things we can and should do today. First and foremost, PROTECT OUR CHILDREN.


:BigApplause:

[Taltarzac725]

We have Freedom of the Press so I do not believe that the focus on the shooter will subside. At least, they are spending a lot more press time on the survivors/victims and their families.

[l2ridehd]

There are no easy solutions. There are no compromises that will make either side happy. Almost total banning of guns has worked in other nations. Not so sure it would work here. Some things I would like to see are stricter and more thorough background checks, no bump stocks allowed, no military grade “assault” type weapons in the hands of common citizens, no metal-piercing bullets, serious gun training and testing for all who buy weapons. Anyone convicted of a DUI should be banned from owning guns — if you can’t stop yourself from getting behind the wheel of your car while high, you really can’t be trusted to keep nor use a gun safely in my mind.

Parents that allow easy access to weapons should face the exact same charges as their children. You know your kids and, if you don’t, shame on you. Check their social media. Know what games they are playing and restrict access to those games you deem inappropriate. Ditto for movies and television programs.

The idea of metal detectors, armed guards, etc. at schools nauseates me. However, there is no denying it has become a necessity. Our children deserve to be feel safe at school. So, do what it takes to make that happen NOW.

I’m tired of hearing about kids shooting kids because a gun was left laying around. I’m sick of drive by killings. I’m really sick and tired of school shootings. Get the media to quit publicizing names and photos of shooters. The story can be told without that information.

There are things we can and should do today. First and foremost, PROTECT OUR CHILDREN.

Having traveled all over the world, I only know of one place where a gun ban works. Singapore. And that is because if you are caught with a gun, or drugs, or committing a violent crime you are tried and executed within a few days. So couple that with a gun ban and maybe I could support it.

Most other places with less harsh punishment, gun bans have failed miserably. And none of that will solve the problem of crazies who want to kill someone. They will use a knife, a bomb, a car, something else.

Also would need to ban lathes, drills, all items to make gun powder, and several other things. Give me a basic machine shop and I can build a gun in less then 4 hours.

[redwitch]

We have Freedom of the Press so I do not believe that the focus on the shooter will subside. At least, they are spending a lot more press time on the survivors/victims and their families.

But if enough people let their broadcasters and editors know they don’t want names publicized, the more the media will listen. We can talk with a button on the remote and a cancellation of newspapers and websites that give those names and show those pictures. We can boycott advertisers until they get message. If enough talk, the media will listen — there may and should be freedom of the press but news ain’t free.

[redwitch]

Having traveled all over the world, I only know of one place where a gun ban works. Singapore. And that is because if you are caught with a gun, or drugs, or committing a violent crime you are tried and executed within a few days. So couple that with a gun ban and maybe I could support it.

Most other places with less harsh punishment, gun bans have failed miserably. And none of that will solve the problem of crazies who want to kill someone. They will use a knife, a bomb, a car, something else

Try Australia, Denmark, Sweden for a start.

I think Oz may actually have a similar culture to ours regarding the wild, Wild West attitude and adulation (why I don’t think gun laws would work here) but they’ve managed to ban guns except for farmers. Their last mass killing by gun was a murder-suicide on a farm this year. There have been a few stranger killings between 1996 and today (a car plowed into a crowd, a university shooting and a hostage situation — all I can remember at the top of my head). John Howard, the PM in 1996, flat out said he didn’t want Australia following in America’s footsteps. So, not a perfect record but a heck of a lot better than ours. Their children are not being murdered on a regular basis.

[Cedwards38]

I don't believe the "Gun Ban" group is a crowd. I believe the gun control and regulation crowd, and those who want to remove military assault rifles from the streets of America are huge.

[BruceMi]

Agree Carl 100%.
It's a sad fact though how this country and others have deteriorated to the point people have to be armed

[Marathon Man]

I don't own a gun. Never have, and I don't believe I ever will. Generally speaking, I would like to see certain weapons done away with. But, here is where I get stuck on that:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I am not sure how a well regulated militia can be formed without "militia" weapons. I seems that the framers wanted us to be able to put up a good fight if needed. The price of that, just like any of our rights, is misuse by someone who wants to bring harm to others.

It is indeed a complicated and difficult issue. Guns have always been a part of our society. Like horses we see them as an important part of how we came to be the land that we love. Some places have no guns, and they eat horses. We have guns, and would never eat a horse.

No easy answers here. Certainly, no quick answers.

[mneumann02]

As a gun owner and a believer in the right to bear arms, I feel compelled to make my first comment on TOTV. To refer to anyone who thinks something must be done about gun control as the "Gun Ban Crowd" and labeled as people who want to trample on the second amendment is the typical "Big Lie" used by the NRA and brainwashed NRA supporters. They will believe anything and repeat it if it can further their cause against any gun control. Do you really think our forefathers would have written that amendment with the language they did if they knew what weaponry was now available and being used in criminal acts on a daily basis? Can't we draw the line somewhere?

I have much hope for the future, because as the older anti-gun control voters die off, they will be replaced as voters by this new youth movement to do something about our crazy lack of good gun control laws. Perhaps only then will the politicians who have been bought by the NRA be voted out of office.

[billethkid]

There will be lack of progress as long as the anti gunners, pro gun banners, the politicians, the media, et al continue to present wrong/bad/false information.

The loose use of AR and what it does not mean....the use of statements like "...remove military assault rifles from the streets of America..." are incorrectly conveying/describing what is actually the case or being used.

We get the fact that the more onerous sounding the better, whether factual or correct or not.

It has been, is and will continue to be impossible to make any real progress regarding school shootings until such time as school shootings cease to become the anti gunners inspiration....and the focus shifts to the reality of the real causes school shootings take place.

We can all have what we think or believe about guns. We also know that what one likes there will always be another who dislikes the same.

What is conveniently being set aside is identifying the cause and DOING SOMETHING TO PREVENT further school shootings.

The continued haranguing about the tool used instead of why it is being used is the usual political pi$$ing contest resulting in no action.........until the next shooting.

If one is going to talk about guns, please do us all a favor and try to understand what one is talking about and not just parroting the politics/special interest/media fodder.

[Kenswing]

As a gun owner and a believer in the right to bear arms, I feel compelled to make my first comment on TOTV. To refer to anyone who thinks something must be done about gun control as the "Gun Ban Crowd" and labeled as people who want to trample on the second amendment is the typical "Big Lie" used by the NRA and brainwashed NRA supporters. They will believe anything and repeat it if it can further their cause against any gun control. Do you really think our forefathers would have written that amendment with the language they did if they knew what weaponry was now available and being used in criminal acts on a daily basis? Can't we draw the line somewhere?

I have much hope for the future, because as the older anti-gun control voters die off, they will be replaced as voters by this new youth movement to do something about our crazy lack of good gun control laws. Perhaps only then will the politicians who have been bought by the NRA be voted out of office.
I keep hearing about these "good gun control laws".. Can someone please tell me what they would look like?

[billethkid]

I keep hearing about these "good gun control laws".. Can someone please tell me what they would look like?

To be sung to the strains of "...some where over the rainbow..."

[perrjojo]

So guns are a problem. Our movies glorify killing and guns. Our video games give you more points for the more people you kill. This seems like a strange game to me. What about the fact that many of the shooters claimed to be left out, bullied and disenfranchised. Maybe we need to find a new culture to glorify in movies. Maybe we need to play different games. Maybe we need to teach our children love, kindness and respect. Why do we seem to always look for someone else to fix the problem? Why do we think it’s the government’s responsibility to fix what needs mending in our hearts?

[Bogie Shooter]

So guns are a problem. Our movies glorify killing and guns. Our video games give you more points for the more people you kill. This seems like a strange game to me. What about the fact that many of the shooters claimed to be left out, bullied and disenfranchised. Maybe we need to find a new culture to glorify in movies. Maybe we need to play different games. Maybe we need to teach our children love, kindness and respect. Why do we seem to always look for someone else to fix the problem? Why do we think it’s the government’s responsibility to fix what needs mending in our hearts?

This started shortly after film became a reality. Somebody has blamed movies for whatever was their cause. Don't believe me? Try Google.

[rivaridger1]

As I suggested on another thread start by securing the guns. Enact legislation establishing strict liability for the sellers and owners of guns if they are not secured. Accompany it with large civil monetary fines. If you financially are able to purchase a gun, you also have the means to make sure it is secured. The father of the boy committing the latest atrocity owned a shipping business in Houston. Why were his guns not locked up somewhere were his son could not access them ? We all have heard the story were little Bobby bring a gun to school to show it to his friends. How about a $ 10,000 fine and 90 mandatory days in the county jail for the person who should have secured the gun. No one should have access to an unauthorized gun. If you own a gun, you should be thinking about its security everyday. This is about responsibility and no excuses for the failure to be responsible. In today's society no one wants to take the blame for anything they do wrong. Enact legislation which makes them think about the consequences of acting stupidly. Responsible adults will then either secure the guns or dispose of them. If you are less then responsible and something awful happens as a result, too bad, pay the fine and do jail time. Any further consequences are on you as well. Most of the gun owners responding to this post I suspect have their guns secured. Juveniles and criminals will not be able to access them unless they expend an awful lot of energy and time. An exception can be legally made for them. Gun locks, bedside safes, vaults all are available. Mandate their use. Little Bobby rarely will have access to bolt cutters and acetylene torches. Everyone should be able to own all the guns they want. They need to be secured. Mental health, well that is another issue but if you catch little Bobby with a torch maybe it is time to pay a visit to the local psychologist. As to your demented adult nephew using the bolt cutters, it probably would not be a bad idea to let the local police know about him.

[NoMoSno]

This kid also had a backpack full of pipe bombs as well as many at home. He learned to make them on You Tube.
Maybe it's time we started looking at why these kids are coming out of the oven, half baked.
In our school days, even if we didn't like a fellow student or teacher, we didn't wake up and think, hey I'm going to school today and try to kill everyone.

[retiredguy123]

What is interesting to me about this issue is that the more people try to promote gun control and a ban on guns, the more business gun dealers get. People react to gun control proposals by buying more guns, and that will continue.

[Trayderjoe]

But if enough people let their broadcasters and editors know they don’t want names publicized, the more the media will listen. We can talk with a button on the remote and a cancellation of newspapers and websites that give those names and show those pictures. We can boycott advertisers until they get message. If enough talk, the media will listen — there may and should be freedom of the press but news ain’t free.

100% right on! This has been proposed at least going back to 2015 (Newsweek (http://www.newsweek.com/media-reporters-cover-mass-killings-umpqua-shooting-378866)). I didn't bother to back check any further as the basic point is that suggesting this proposal is at least 2-3 years old (and there are other similar reports that are easily Googled). The media has had plenty of time to enact a reasonable reporting structure for these events, yet nothing happened. Sensationalism in the media is their driver.

Further proof? Look no further than the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (link (https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving)) reported average of 29 deaths per day related to driving and alcohol. Because this is spread around the country and is not in one event, it is not sensational enough for media coverage. How sad is it that there are more deaths on an annual basis due to alcohol and driving than there are mass shootings? (I abhor mass shootings, so for the flamer(s), don't even try it)

Perhaps it is time to call the media to task for not enacting such an approach.

[Trayderjoe]

Try Australia, Denmark, Sweden for a start.

I think Oz may actually have a similar culture to ours regarding the wild, Wild West attitude and adulation (why I don’t think gun laws would work here) but they’ve managed to ban guns except for farmers. Their last mass killing by gun was a murder-suicide on a farm this year. There have been a few stranger killings between 1996 and today (a car plowed into a crowd, a university shooting and a hostage situation — all I can remember at the top of my head). John Howard, the PM in 1996, flat out said he didn’t want Australia following in America’s footsteps. So, not a perfect record but a heck of a lot better than ours. Their children are not being murdered on a regular basis.

Unfortunately, the fact that other countries may have enacted a gun ban (I am not familiar with the types of bans in those countries listed so I can't speak to them), does not equate to a gun ban working in the United States.

Focusing initially and briefly on our criminal justice system, are they equal? For example, do they operate under the same search and seizure requirements that our police force must follow? Are criminals kicked free because of a spelling error on a warrant? What is the level of recidivism for their convicts? How are their crimes distributed (i.e. do they have more property crimes)or more personal crimes (murder, rape, assault, etc.)? Are the police respected or demonized? Are the criminals made into victims?

Are the children raised under the same environmental conditions as here in the US? What can parents in those countries do in terms of punishment for misbehaving children? Do they have the same mind numbing level of violence in their games? Or do the children actually develop socialization skills by going outside to play and interact with other children? What is the family dynamic like versus in the US?

I haven't even touched on other socio-economic conditions that would also have to be factored in and I am sure that there are other considerations that need to be compared that I have not listed.

Let's start at least with getting the media to stop making it a prize to be the best murderer in the US.

[Carl in Tampa]

OK GANG. LET'S GET BACK ON POINT.

You anti-gun, anti-NRA, anti-Second Amendment people must abandon your emotional, and irrational, feeling that the solution to our school shootings is gun control.

My original post explained why America can never be made into a gun free nation. If a total ban were passed upon gun possession in our country there would immediately be a Black Market underground market for firearms. Millions of guns would flood this market.

But, if this were not so, we would see greater numbers of guns smuggled from other countries, just as is true for illegal drugs.

Ban "assault weapons?" There is a video showing the rapid firing of a single-shot 12 gauge shotgun. Instead of just three rounds, this shooter could have had a large bag full of shells at his side.

Speed loading a single shot 12 ZRUS - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5keKy6i37J0)

And, how about bombs? The Texas shooter had bombs. Did you know that you can make black power from three easily available elements? You can get two of them at the hardware store and you can make the third at home.

The emphasis needs to be on excluding the potential killers from schools. Hardened targets, with armed guards and effective security, is a first step. More emphasis on mental health observation of our adolescent population is another.

Someone on this thread asked about safety for children on the school bus before or after school. The same might be asked for when groups of kids hang out at the Mall or the drug store. There is no perfectly safe location.

The present subject is safety and security at the school building.

Nattering on about "sensible gun control laws" is time wasted. I have already demonstrated that even a total ban on guns would not be effective.

Work on mental health for adolescents, who often feel isolated, bullied, despondent, forlorn, or abandoned. In the years when I was a hostage negotiator, I also dealt with armed, suicidal people. The key to suicidal thoughts was often that a person felt "hopeless and helpless." My task was to restore some sense of hope and personal control to their lives. I was always successful.

Kids often know which of their schoolmates are in need of attention. Create an environment in which they feel comfortable in reporting these situations.

In the meantime, the immediate answer is to establish full security at the school buildings.

[Trayderjoe]

As a gun owner and a believer in the right to bear arms, I feel compelled to make my first comment on TOTV. To refer to anyone who thinks something must be done about gun control as the "Gun Ban Crowd" and labeled as people who want to trample on the second amendment is the typical "Big Lie" used by the NRA and brainwashed NRA supporters. They will believe anything and repeat it if it can further their cause against any gun control. Do you really think our forefathers would have written that amendment with the language they did if they knew what weaponry was now available and being used in criminal acts on a daily basis? Can't we draw the line somewhere?

I have much hope for the future, because as the older anti-gun control voters die off, they will be replaced as voters by this new youth movement to do something about our crazy lack of good gun control laws. Perhaps only then will the politicians who have been bought by the NRA be voted out of office.

I think that we can all agree that our forefathers were at least reasonably intelligent, can we not? Assuming that we do agree there, then it would be reasonable to believe that at least some of them were aware of the progression of weapons use by their forefathers. I am not saying that they had a deep knowledge of what happened in prehistoric times, however it would be reasonable that they knew that swords, knives, etc. were used before the development of the first musket.

So, on this basis, I would agree with you that they would not necessarily know what the weapons of today would look like. However, given that they saw that there was an evolution in the weapons being used, it would be reasonable to assume that the weapons would continue to evolve, the time and method of evolution not known, but reasonably believed to continue onward.

Given the need for the development of the second amendment, and knowing that there would be changes to the weapons at some point in the future, perhaps that is why the forefathers used the terms, "the right to bear arms" versus "the right to bear muskets".

[rivaridger1]

Is insisting gun owners act responsibly and secure their guns " gun control ?

[billethkid]

If the politics of today were in play when the 2nd amendment (as well as all the others) there would be no such document for signing.

Somehow the politics of mine or nothing have replaced representing the people.

The so called representatives have become self appointed/annointed representatives of the party and forgotten the people.

It all gets back to the silent majority. That could easily demand change back to doing what is right for we the people.....not the party.

This is why there can be no progress or satisfaction when it comes to doing what is right for the safety of children in schools. The representatives are too caught up in the bidding of the party making them unable to serve the needs of the safety of the children.

The issue of guns is nothing more than an ONGOING, convenient distraction. The representatives do not have anything invested in the safety of the children....they have none in school....they have not suffered any loss....
until we demand other wise.....NOTHING WILL CHANGE!

[Trayderjoe]

If the politics of today were in play when the 2nd amendment (as well as all the others) there would be no such document for signing.

Somehow the politics of mine or nothing have replaced representing the people.

The so called representatives have become self appointed/annointed representatives of the party and forgotten the people.

It all gets back to the silent majority. That could easily demand change back to doing what is right for we the people.....not the party.

This is why there can be no progress or satisfaction when it comes to doing what is right for the safety of children in schools. The representatives are too caught up in the bidding of the party making them unable to serve the needs of the safety of the children.

The issue of guns is nothing more than an ONGOING, convenient distraction. The representatives do not have anything invested in the safety of the children....they have none in school....they have not suffered any loss....
until we demand other wise.....NOTHING WILL CHANGE!

Great points billethkid. I hadn't even considered from that angle. Too bad we can't have term limits for our Congress just as we have for the President.

[Bonnevie]

How come people don't start a band all cars movement every time some wack job uses one to purposely run over a bunch of innocent people?

because cars were developed as a means of transportation and are used in those instances inappropriately. guns were developed to kill, that is their only purpose.

no one wants to take away people's guns or the right to own them. and the Texas case is different from Parkland but still an underage teenager was able to procure guns. and nothing would prevent him from buying guns from a private source.

[Dmbluk]

Gun control starts behind your front door. Gun safety starts behind your front door. Growing up I was taught at a very early age when and where a gun was to be used. As far back as I can remember their where always 3 guns behind the headboard of my parents bed and we knew they were off limits unless we were supervised using them. My parents took the time to teach us the difference between right and wrong. And they did this while they both worked full time jobs and my dad worked 2 jobs. These people who think having the government control guns is the correct why to handle mass killings need to wake up . Sometime when you have a minute sit down in front of your computer and google How to make a pipe bomb or How to make a steam pot bomb. Then they will see how easy it is for children to find other ways to make weapons of mass killings. Gun control starts behind your front door. Gun safety starts behind your front door.

[Fredster]

Is insisting gun owners act responsibly and secure their guns " gun control ?

No, securing the firearms you may own is
just common sense.
Which the vast majotity of gun owners posess!

[Miles42]

This is just beating a dead horses

[ColdNoMore]

This is just beating a dead horses

Of courses.

[ColdNoMore]

No, securing the firearms you may own is
just common sense.
Which the vast majotity of gun owners posess!




Gun Violence: Facts and Statistics | Violence Prevention Initiative (https://injury.research.chop.edu/violence-prevention-initiative/types-violence-involving-youth/gun-violence/gun-violence-facts-and#.WwSTUCApCUk)

-In 2014, 2,549 children (age 0 to 19 years) died by gunshot and an additional 13,576 were injured.

-An emergency department visit for non-fatal assault injury places a youth at 40 percent higher risk for subsequent firearm injury.

-Those people that die from accidental shooting were more than three times as likely to have had a firearm in their home as those in the control group.

-Among children, the majority (89%) of unintentional shooting deaths occur in the home. Most of these deaths occur when children are playing with a loaded gun in their parent’s absence.

-People who report “firearm access” are at twice the risk of homicide and more than three times the risk of suicide compared to those who do not own or have access to firearms.


States rejecting bills intended to keep guns away from kids (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/05/24/states-rejecting-bills-intended-keep-guns-away-kids/102019946/)

In state after state, proposals that would create or toughen laws intended to keep kids from getting ahold of unsecured guns have stalled — caught up in a debate over whether they are effective prevention measures or just government overreach.

Child access prevention laws allow prosecutors to bring charges against adults who fail to safely store their loaded guns, especially when they are obtained by minors and used to harm.

Public health experts say the laws could significantly reduce unintentional shootings that kill and injure hundreds of children every year, particularly if they allow for felonies against violators and are paired with educational campaigns to raise awareness.

But legislative efforts in dozens of states have run into opposition from lawmakers aligned with the National Rifle Association.

Critics say the laws trample on the rights of gun owners who should be able to store their firearms however they want, and unfairly single out guns.



:ohdear:

[bob47]

There are those who believe more guns in more hands, hardened facilities, and armed guards in abundance is the appropriate future. Some folks believe fewer guns and open facilities is what you would expect of an advanced society and can actually be found in some advanced countries. These two groups will never agree on a path forward.

Personally, I find it a pretty dismal future to comtemplate, that access to a lot of facilities is actually like entering a prison. But let me ask a few questions of those who advocate hardening public facilities.

What do you do with a place like the University of Massachusetts which has about 24,000 students and hundreds of buildings on over 1400 acres? And all the other universities like it?

What do you do about a place like Saint Mary-of-the-Woods college, a small catholic womens' college in Indiana with about 700 students on 67 acres? And all the literally thousands of small colleges in this country?

And what do you do about all the shopping malls and transportation terminals and nursing homes and hospitals and performing arts centers?

And how do you ensure that somebody who today has been screened and deemed safe to own a weapon of tremendous destructive capability doesn't go off the rails at some time in the future and use that weapon to wreak havoc?

It seems to me that one component of the answer is to limit the destructive capability that individuals can own. Certainly there are social issues that need to be addressed as well. But some people believe that there are already too many guns out there and control is now impossible. Unfortunately, especially for lack of will, I fear that is true.

Let us, however, remember an incident that occurred a few years ago at night in Spanish Springs. There was an armed robbery at a restaurant and some folks had money and who knows what else stolen. I don't know if the perpetrators were captured or if the folks got their money back. But there were no shots fired. Nobody was hurt. No innocent bystanders were killed. If somebody had pulled out a gun to shoot it out with the robbers, isn't it just possible that one of the victims or somebody at the Rialto theater or on the square would have wound up dead? Just some food for thought.

[8notes]

:1rotfl:

NRA's Chris Cox falsely says Dianne Feinstein wanted to take 'all of your guns' | PolitiFact (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/oct/08/chris-cox/nras-chris-cox-falsely-says-dianne-feinstein-wante/)


What, the NRA...again?! :oops:


Facts Matter

Thank you. So much false information out there, and people just lap it up without doing any fact checking. I think it might have originally come from Breibart news, no surprise.

[Bowtorc]

Bobby Rush is undoubtedly another example of people running the state that can't even provide gas to get a witness to court for a trial. Never so glad to get out of Illinois.

[retiredguy123]

Let us, however, remember an incident that occurred a few years ago at night in Spanish Springs. There was an armed robbery at a restaurant and some folks had money and who knows what else stolen. I don't know if the perpetrators were captured or if the folks got their money back. But there were no shots fired. Nobody was hurt. No innocent bystanders were killed. If somebody had pulled out a gun to shoot it out with the robbers, isn't it just possible that one of the victims or somebody at the Rialto theater or on the square would have wound up dead? Just some food for thought.
Yes, but it is also possible that, if all law abiding people gave up their guns, there would be a lot more robberies because the criminals would have no fear about commiting crimes at will.

[l2ridehd]

Try Australia, Denmark, Sweden for a start.

I think Oz may actually have a similar culture to ours regarding the wild, Wild West attitude and adulation (why I don’t think gun laws would work here) but they’ve managed to ban guns except for farmers. Their last mass killing by gun was a murder-suicide on a farm this year. There have been a few stranger killings between 1996 and today (a car plowed into a crowd, a university shooting and a hostage situation — all I can remember at the top of my head). John Howard, the PM in 1996, flat out said he didn’t want Australia following in America’s footsteps. So, not a perfect record but a heck of a lot better than ours. Their children are not being murdered on a regular basis.

Actually those don't work. Look at their population and number of incidents (and include all incidents using guns, knives, cars, etc, violent crimes) and they are not that much different. OZ has less then 1/20th of our population and as a % of population is over 80% of our incidents with strict gun control.

You can take away all weapons but until you fix the people issues you will still have problems. People have to know there will be severe consequences to their behavior and in this country the lawyers have ruined that possibility.

[Taltarzac725]

Actually those don't work. Look at their population and number of incidents (and include all incidents using guns, knives, cars, etc, violent crimes) and they are not that much different. OZ has less then 1/20th of our population and as a % of population is over 80% of our incidents with strict gun control.

You can take away all weapons but until you fix the people issues you will still have problems. People have to know there will be severe consequences to their behavior and in this country the lawyers have ruined that possibility.

The lawyers though only seem to work that way for very high profile cases like OJ Simpson and the rich/famous but not so much for ordinary people. That goes more to the luck of the draw with picking jurors and getting the right judge and avoiding cliques in court houses or local communities which can lead to unfair outcomes. Death of Caylee Anthony - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Caylee_Anthony)

What we need is communities working to solve local problems with the resources in those communities or those available via the Internet. It takes a Village....

[billethkid]

Eventually the distraction of gun control will give way to those who would venture to address the needed school safety and protection of the children in attendance there.

The other lark some take pleasure in commenting on is gun owners in the USA giving up their guns. There will be a snowball sale in hell long before that EVER happens.
Just think about it for a nano second. Nobody knows where the guns are or who has them and how many. Just another gun control uninformed anecdotal seizure....

Back to the real subject.....safety in the school and protection of the children!

[leftyf]

Yes, but it is also possible that, if all law abiding people gave up their guns, there would be a lot more robberies because the criminals would have no fear about commiting crimes at will.


You must take them from the criminals first.

[billethkid]

Actually those don't work. Look at their population and number of incidents (and include all incidents using guns, knives, cars, etc, violent crimes) and they are not that much different. OZ has less then 1/20th of our population and as a % of population is over 80% of our incidents with strict gun control.

You can take away all weapons but until you fix the people issues you will still have problems. People have to know there will be severe consequences to their behavior and in this country the lawyers have ruined that possibility.

Exactly the issue; I would include the politicians, most of which are lawyers.

[DeanFL]

Must say - I'm livid with the father of the TX school killer. I've read the following accounts from several sources - copied below.

...so the Father attributes his son's hunting down students due to being 'bullied'. So his little boy's feelings got hurt...and resolved by this? Sure, he was a "good boy". But evidence continues to show a warped mind and obsession with violence. And apparently the weapons were in 'a closet'. The most irritating of the father's comments were that he has the "same exact pain" as the other parents. OMG - how irrational is that? and, he feels his son is a "victim".
---------------------------------------

Texas school shooting: Accused shooter's dad believes bullying behind rampage

(CNN)The father of the teenager accused of killing 10 people at Santa Fe High School in Texas says his son was a "good boy," and he believes bullying drove him to perpetrate last week's deadly rampage.

Antonios Pagourtzis' claims came during a brief phone interview Monday with The Wall Street Journal.
Pagourtzis' son, 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtzis, is on suicide watch at the Galveston County Jail, where he is being held without bail. He has not entered a plea to the charges of capital murder of multiple people and aggravated assault on a public servant.
In a probable cause statement, authorities said he admitted to the shooting.

His father told the Journal that Dimitrios was "mistreated at school" and "I believe that's what was behind" the shooting.
In a statement over the weekend, the Santa Fe Independent School District said it was aware of false reports "about SFISD high school coaches and bully-like behaviors toward the student shooter." The administration investigated the claims and determined they were untrue, the statement said.
Father had run-ins with law
Pagourtzis, who business records show owns North American Marine Inc., a ship repair and industrial cleaning company in Houston, north of Santa Fe, told the Journal he struggled to get where he is today. He left his village in northern Greece when he was 12 with only the clothes he was wearing and a spare set of boots, he said.
"This country treated us well. I worked hard and became a shipowner. I had three ships, which I sold," he told the paper. "Now ... our lives are shattered."

According to Harris County court records, Pagourtzis was twice charged with misdemeanor assault -- in 1987 and 2012 -- and both cases were dismissed. In 2008, he was convicted of illegally dumping wood materials, records show.

In the 2012 case, Pagourtzis punched a man and "grabbed his face and hit his head on the ground causing his nose to bleed" after, Pagourtzis alleged, the man hurt dogs at his shop, a police affidavit said.
It's unclear why the cases were dismissed, and neither Pagourtzis' nor the alleged victim's attorneys could be reached for comment.

During the interview with The Wall Street Journal, Antonios Pagourtzis wouldn't discuss how his son came to acquire the weapons used in Friday's attack, the paper reported.
The suspect was armed with a sawed-off shotgun and a .38-caliber handgun, and Gov. Greg Abbott said last week that the teen obtained the guns from his father. A law enforcement official told CNN that authorities are still trying to determine whether that's the case.


In a Saturday interview with Greece's Antenna TV, Pagourtzis said he owned the guns used in the attack and Dimitrios took them from his closet.

"I feel the pain of the others, but I have the same pain. I have the same exact pain," Pagourtzis said, according to a translation of the interview. "Something must have happened now, this last week. Somebody probably came and hurt him, and since he was a solid boy, I don't know what could have happened. I can't say what happened. All I can say is what I suspect as a father, because I've lost my boy.
"My son, to me, is not a criminal. He's a victim."

[billethkid]

Must say - I'm livid with the father of the TX school killer. I've read the following accounts from several sources - copied below.

...so the Father attributes his son's hunting down students due to being 'bullied'. So his little boy's feelings got hurt...and resolved by this? Sure, he was a "good boy". But evidence continues to show a warped mind and obsession with violence. And apparently the weapons were in 'a closet'. The most irritating of the father's comments were that he has the "same exact pain" as the other parents. OMG - how irrational is that? and, he feels his son is a "victim".
---------------------------------------

Texas school shooting: Accused shooter's dad believes bullying behind rampage

(CNN)The father of the teenager accused of killing 10 people at Santa Fe High School in Texas says his son was a "good boy," and he believes bullying drove him to perpetrate last week's deadly rampage.

Antonios Pagourtzis' claims came during a brief phone interview Monday with The Wall Street Journal.
Pagourtzis' son, 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtzis, is on suicide watch at the Galveston County Jail, where he is being held without bail. He has not entered a plea to the charges of capital murder of multiple people and aggravated assault on a public servant.
In a probable cause statement, authorities said he admitted to the shooting.

His father told the Journal that Dimitrios was "mistreated at school" and "I believe that's what was behind" the shooting.
In a statement over the weekend, the Santa Fe Independent School District said it was aware of false reports "about SFISD high school coaches and bully-like behaviors toward the student shooter." The administration investigated the claims and determined they were untrue, the statement said.
Father had run-ins with law
Pagourtzis, who business records show owns North American Marine Inc., a ship repair and industrial cleaning company in Houston, north of Santa Fe, told the Journal he struggled to get where he is today. He left his village in northern Greece when he was 12 with only the clothes he was wearing and a spare set of boots, he said.
"This country treated us well. I worked hard and became a shipowner. I had three ships, which I sold," he told the paper. "Now ... our lives are shattered."

According to Harris County court records, Pagourtzis was twice charged with misdemeanor assault -- in 1987 and 2012 -- and both cases were dismissed. In 2008, he was convicted of illegally dumping wood materials, records show.

In the 2012 case, Pagourtzis punched a man and "grabbed his face and hit his head on the ground causing his nose to bleed" after, Pagourtzis alleged, the man hurt dogs at his shop, a police affidavit said.
It's unclear why the cases were dismissed, and neither Pagourtzis' nor the alleged victim's attorneys could be reached for comment.

During the interview with The Wall Street Journal, Antonios Pagourtzis wouldn't discuss how his son came to acquire the weapons used in Friday's attack, the paper reported.
The suspect was armed with a sawed-off shotgun and a .38-caliber handgun, and Gov. Greg Abbott said last week that the teen obtained the guns from his father. A law enforcement official told CNN that authorities are still trying to determine whether that's the case.


In a Saturday interview with Greece's Antenna TV, Pagourtzis said he owned the guns used in the attack and Dimitrios took them from his closet.

"I feel the pain of the others, but I have the same pain. I have the same exact pain," Pagourtzis said, according to a translation of the interview. "Something must have happened now, this last week. Somebody probably came and hurt him, and since he was a solid boy, I don't know what could have happened. I can't say what happened. All I can say is what I suspect as a father, because I've lost my boy.
"My son, to me, is not a criminal. He's a victim."

Sounds like they have already been lawyered up!!!
The permissiveness will continue!!

[Kenswing]

You must take them from the criminals first.
Now that's funny..

[Trayderjoe]

Thank you. So much false information out there, and people just lap it up without doing any fact checking. I think it might have originally come from Breibart news, no surprise.

Interesting. I was not aware that the Associated Press, and the Chicago Tribune who quoted Bobby Rush, were part of Breibart news. Of course, reading a little bit further in the thread would have shown the response to the referenced post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdNoMore

NRA's Chris Cox falsely says Dianne Feinstein wanted to take 'all of your guns' | PolitiFact

What, the NRA...again?!

Facts Matter"

Response:
The link was in regards to the Chris Fox statement about her assault weapons ban. I was referring to:

"Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of Americans to feel safe."

Dianne Feinstein (US Senator, D-CA); quoted by the Associated Press Newswire, 1993-11-18

and there is also:

"The national guard fulfills the the militia mentioned in the Second Amendment. Citizens no longer need to protect the states or themselves."

Dianne Feinstein (US Senator, D-CA)

And I will also add in this quote from Bobby Rush, U.S. Representative from Illinois:

“My staff and I right now are working on a comprehensive gun-control bill. We don’t have all the details, but for instance, regulating the sale and purchase of bullets. Ultimately, I would like to see the manufacture and possession of handguns banned except for military and police use. But that’s the endgame. And in the meantime, there are some specific things that we can do with legislation.” Chicago Tribune, December 5, 1999

[427dave]

So,

Did you ever hear of Sgt. Alvin York? While a Corporal in World War I, he was credited with killing at least 25 German soldiers in a confrontation where they were trying to kill him. He was armed with a bolt action rifle adopted by the Army in 1903 and capable of firing only five rounds before being reloaded.



Gun bans is not the answer.

Alvin C. York was my grandmothers first cousin :)

[Taltarzac725]

Alvin C. York was my grandmothers first cousin :)

That is cool. I have a female friend whose dad was a sniper in WWII. She hates guns but was a sure shot at the air pistol range here in the Villages.

[Carl in Tampa]

There are those who believe more guns in more hands, hardened facilities, and armed guards in abundance is the appropriate future. Some folks believe fewer guns and open facilities is what you would expect of an advanced society and can actually be found in some advanced countries. These two groups will never agree on a path forward.

Personally, I find it a pretty dismal future to comtemplate, that access to a lot of facilities is actually like entering a prison. But let me ask a few questions of those who advocate hardening public facilities.

What do you do with a place like the University of Massachusetts which has about 24,000 students and hundreds of buildings on over 1400 acres? And all the other universities like it?

What do you do about a place like Saint Mary-of-the-Woods college, a small catholic womens' college in Indiana with about 700 students on 67 acres? And all the literally thousands of small colleges in this country?

And what do you do about all the shopping malls and transportation terminals and nursing homes and hospitals and performing arts centers?

And how do you ensure that somebody who today has been screened and deemed safe to own a weapon of tremendous destructive capability doesn't go off the rails at some time in the future and use that weapon to wreak havoc?

It seems to me that one component of the answer is to limit the destructive capability that individuals can own. Certainly there are social issues that need to be addressed as well. But some people believe that there are already too many guns out there and control is now impossible. Unfortunately, especially for lack of will, I fear that is true.

Let us, however, remember an incident that occurred a few years ago at night in Spanish Springs. There was an armed robbery at a restaurant and some folks had money and who knows what else stolen. I don't know if the perpetrators were captured or if the folks got their money back. But there were no shots fired. Nobody was hurt. No innocent bystanders were killed. If somebody had pulled out a gun to shoot it out with the robbers, isn't it just possible that one of the victims or somebody at the Rialto theater or on the square would have wound up dead? Just some food for thought.

Schools with spread out campuses and buildings, characteristic of universities, will require a different approach. As it has been repeatedly demonstrated, school shooters tend to take their own lives as soon as confronted by armed opposition. Ten states now have provisions allowing the carrying of concealed weapons on public post-secondary campuses. These states are Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Mississippi, Oregon, Texas, Utah and Wisconsin. This makes it more likely that a campus shooter will be confronted more quickly.

Frankly, I'm surprised that we haven't seen more mall shootings, although there have been some. Again, ordinary citizens legally carrying concealed weapons are a deterrent.

There is no such thing as perfect safety. Distracted drivers kill thousands of innocents annually. Backyard swimming pools kill thousands of children annually. Drug abuse kills thousands of people annually. Drunk drivers kill thousands of people annually.

About "limiting the destructive capability that individuals can own" think about the fact that the National Firearms Registry has a list of all owners of legally registered machine guns, short barrel shotguns, silencers, short barreled rifles, destructive devices, and "other" weapons. There are 3,656,034 of these items legally owned in the United States. In the past year none of them was used illegally.

Recognizing that a gun ban would only result in an underground Black Market for the banned items, let's come up with some other ways to deal with the problem.

[rivaridger1]

Prattle, prattle, prattle. The subject at one time was what can be done. Secure the guns, secure the campuses. That can be done. It involves money, not excuses, as to how hard it will be. If anyone has a better idea as to were to start, please post it. As a society we bury starting points for social action so deep in kaka nothing ever gets accomplished.

[billethkid]

Prattle, prattle, prattle. The subject at one time was what can be done. Secure the guns, secure the campuses. That can be done. It involves money, not excuses, as to how hard it will be. If anyone has a better idea as to were to start, please post it. As a society we bury starting points for social action so deep in kaka nothing ever gets accomplished.


Have you not seen or heard my appeal to forget the partisan anti gun BS and work on something that can be solved....how to protect the schools and the children.

Hypocrites will banter all day long about the guns. Not capable of spending 5 minutes toward making the schools safer.....how about we all agree to ban the guns is an impossible objective that does not accomplish making the schools safer and protect the children.

Now just why is it so hard to try to MAKE THE SCHOOLS SAFER??

[twinklesweep]

.... Gun bans is not the answer.

The emphasis needs to be on excluding the potential killers from schools. Hardened targets, with armed guards and effective security, is a first step. More emphasis on mental health observation of our adolescent population is another.

Work on mental health for adolescents, who often feel isolated, bullied, despondent, forlorn, or abandoned....

Kids often know which of their schoolmates are in need of attention. Create an environment in which they feel comfortable in reporting these situations.

In the meantime, the immediate answer is to establish full security at the school buildings.

Schools with spread out campuses and buildings, characteristic of universities, will require a different approach. As it has been repeatedly demonstrated, school shooters tend to take their own lives as soon as confronted by armed opposition....

After the initial post, after excluding all the 'nattering,' as described by one poster, after reading "Gun bans is not the answer," my question to the OP is "Well, it appears that gun bans are not the solution, then what are the answers?"

From the OP's next post, more questions: How viable is the suggestion of yet more mental health counseling, which is already prevalent in schools and does not necessarily pick up on who might be a potential shooter? And how does one create an atmosphere in schools of getting adolescents to squeal on other adolescents (even those whom they might hear about planning a shooting)? And how are we to address the situation of the father who not only provided the guns to his son (without realizing it, of course) but actually makes excuses for him? What of the suggestion to make the father bear responsibility for this horror?

And finally, "In the meantime, the immediate answer is to establish full security at the school buildings." Especially since the OP has worked in hostage negotiations, perhaps he can suggest how to implement this? I could be wrong, but I would think the problem of hostages comes after the fact, not before, in contrast with school or other mass shootings. And how does it help the situation to cite a large spread-out campus being problematic and so forth and not offering anything remotely addressing the problem?

I am not in agreement or disagreement, and I don't see that gun ban on one extreme or arming yet more personnel, including teachers, in schools the other extreme. These questions need answers for us to understand better what can be done in a realistic way. Can the OP provide cogent, sensible, practical ideas about how viably this can be dealt with? Or perhaps refer us to a source where these questions can be answered? I could never have made this post because, honestly, I have more questions than answers!

Also, while a solution must be found, who is going to pay for this? I constantly hear people griping and whining about having to pay taxes....

[rivaridger1]

Strict civil and criminal liability for failure to secure the guns. The Houston father apparently is wealthy having owned companies in the area. He should be stripped of his assets though the civil court system, pay a massive fine and do jail time. Others as a result will be motivated to secure their weapons. If we can secure our government buildings, we can physically secure the schools. As to who pays, the taxpayer who now pays for the schools is first in line. Next in line, the fines for failure to secure the guns and as much as I find it disagreeable, tax the gun and ammunition manufacturers. If we can tax such things specifically such as oil products, gas, airplane flights, and medical device makers, etc., we can surely tax the gun and ammunition industry. If the price of a new Smith and Wesson revolver goes from $ 650 to $ 1,300, I guess people will just have to save a little longer before making the purchase.

[thetruth]

I don't believe the "Gun Ban" group is a crowd. I believe the gun control and regulation crowd, and those who want to remove military assault rifles from the streets of America are huge.

A crowd? Closer to a MOB. It is easy to lead a MOB because most want to be told by others what they should think.

As to assault rifles. I SUGGEST YOU ALL LOOK IT UP. Perhaps, if you do you will discover that you are being misinformed. An assault rifle is by definition AUTOMATIC
it is illegal and has been illegal to own since the 1920's.

[Coal Miner]

Another school shooting today. The gun nuts say hohum, nothing can be done. Its not the guns, or the availability of guns, or guns in the wrong hands. No not the guns. Nothing can be done. So lets just keep sending thoughts and prayers while the NRA keeps buying our politicians.

[ColdNoMore]

Another school shooting today. The gun nuts say hohum, nothing can be done. Its not the guns, or the availability of guns, or guns in the wrong hands. No not the guns. Nothing can be done.

So lets just keep sending thoughts and prayers while the NRA keeps buying our politicians.

YEP! :ohdear:

[tomwed]

I just read Columbine in wikipedia. 1999 pistols, shotguns and home made bombs

[ColdNoMore]

I just read Columbine in wikipedia. 1999 pistols, shotguns and home made bombs

VPC - Where'd They Get Their Guns? - Columbine High School, Littleton, Colorado (http://www.vpc.org/studies/wgun990420.htm)

How Firearm(s) Acquired

Robyn Anderson, a friend of Klebold and Harris, bought the shotguns and the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine at The Tanner Gun Show in December of 1998 from unlicensed sellers.

Because Anderson purchased the guns for someone else, the transition constituted an illegal "straw purchase."

Klebold and Harris bought the TEC-DC9 from a pizza shop employee named Mark Manes, who knew they were too young to purchase the assault pistol, but nevertheless sold it to them for $500.

[Sail41]

Contrary to whats said about the NRA, from 1990 through 2018, the NRA has given approx 23 million dollars to politicians. That's chump change when you consider that in 2016 elections alone, the labor unions gave 1.6 billion dollars to liberals. That doesn't include the likes of Soros and Co. Big difference as to who is buying the politicians.

[Carl in Tampa]

After the initial post, after excluding all the 'nattering,' as described by one poster, after reading "Gun bans is not the answer," my question to the OP is "Well, it appears that gun bans are not the solution, then what are the answers?"

From the OP's next post, more questions: How viable is the suggestion of yet more mental health counseling, which is already prevalent in schools and does not necessarily pick up on who might be a potential shooter? And how does one create an atmosphere in schools of getting adolescents to squeal on other adolescents (even those whom they might hear about planning a shooting)? And how are we to address the situation of the father who not only provided the guns to his son (without realizing it, of course) but actually makes excuses for him? What of the suggestion to make the father bear responsibility for this horror?

And finally, "In the meantime, the immediate answer is to establish full security at the school buildings." Especially since the OP has worked in hostage negotiations, perhaps he can suggest how to implement this? I could be wrong, but I would think the problem of hostages comes after the fact, not before, in contrast with school or other mass shootings. And how does it help the situation to cite a large spread-out campus being problematic and so forth and not offering anything remotely addressing the problem?

I am not in agreement or disagreement, and I don't see that gun ban on one extreme or arming yet more personnel, including teachers, in schools the other extreme. These questions need answers for us to understand better what can be done in a realistic way. Can the OP provide cogent, sensible, practical ideas about how viably this can be dealt with? Or perhaps refer us to a source where these questions can be answered? I could never have made this post because, honestly, I have more questions than answers!

Also, while a solution must be found, who is going to pay for this? I constantly hear people griping and whining about having to pay taxes....

Twinklesweep is to be commended for a thoughtful posting, with serious questions.

Regarding the question of how to get adolescents to "squeal" on other adolescents, the answer is to discard the gangland reference to squealing, and emphasize that identifying the mentally disturbed in the community is both a service to the community and to the mentally disturbed person.

The State of Florida has addressed the issue of properly securing firearms with a law that punishes anyone who fails to properly store or secure with a trigger lock a loaded gun, to keep it from getting into the hands of a minor (age 16 or under.) The offense is a Second Degree misdemeanor. Second degree misdemeanors are punishable by up to 60 days in jail and a $500.00 fine. Arguably, the penalty should be increased.

I do not claim special knowledge in the field of facilities security based upon having been a Hostage Negotiator, but rather because for six years I was in charge of the Secret Service personnel assigned to intrusion detection and prevention at the White House. This included perimeter and interior locks; closed circuit television; intrusion alarms; and other electronic surveillance.

We also examined every delivery to the White House from any tradesman who delivered goods, such as food to be prepared by the kitchen. I once personally searched the suitcase of the President's brother who had arrived for a visit.

I'm sure you know that tourists who visit the White House go through metal detectors, just as passengers do at the airport.

Regarding spread out campuses, I thought I did offer a suggestion. More armed personnel, also spread throughout the campus.

Let me point out again that it is often the case in school shootings that the shooter is not a student at the school, as was the case at Sandy Hook, or he comes late to school, as was the case in Florida (end of school day) and Texas (lunch time.) If the person is not a student we are not faced with an internal threat. If a person is a straggler he should be subjected to extra examination.

Not enough has been done to create a system to effectively fortify each individual classroom with a relatively simple device to make the door impenetrable to a shooter. This would be a relatively inexpensive fix.

There have been cases where the shooter sets off a fire alarm in order to flood the hallways with targets. School fire alarms should be re-configured to ring in a central office where a monitor could establish through closed circuit television and two way communication with the person who set off the alarm whether or not it was a false alarm. Then appropriate action could be taken.

There is no completely effective solution, but a lot can be done.

[Carl in Tampa]

Some may find it interesting to review information from the Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center on school safety.

Buried in all of the verbiage it the suggestion of having a police presence on campus, even where a full time School Resource Officer is not in place.

"Where school resource officers are not present, encourage law
enforcement personnel to have a presence in the school, such as having lunch in the cafeteria or completing administrative
work in the school library, a patrol car in the school parking lot, or even an empty office."

https://www.secretservice.gov/data/protection/ntac/Making_Schools_Safer_Quick_Reference_Guide_2018_Up date.pdf

Another interesting report, regarding mass attacks in public spaces in 2017, contained the interesting fact that "over three-quarters of the attackers made concerning communications and/or elicited concern from others prior to carrying out their attacks. On average, those who did elicit concern caused more harm than those who did not."

Great data with graphs.

https://www.secretservice.gov/data/protection/ntac/USSS_NTAC-Mass_Attacks_in_Public_Spaces-2017.pdf

[tomwed]

Dissecting the distinctive profile of school shooters: 'There's always a trail of what they're about to do' - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/US/dissecting-distinctive-profile-school-shooters-trail/story?id=53197511)

What Decades Of Covering School Shootings Has Taught Me : NPR Ed : NPR (https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/02/22/587334597/what-decades-of-covering-school-shootings-has-taught-me)

[tomwed]

Indicator 1: Violent Deaths at School and Away From School (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/ind_01.asp)
This goes against my intuition but shootings, or suicides may not be on the rise as much as we thing.


School Shootings: Five Critical Questions - Education Week (https://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/school-shootings/index.html)
This is what many districts are doing. good video at the end