Why are using IQ scores for placement in school, controversial now?

[graciegirl]

It didn't used to be. I would like to preface this discussion with the disclaimer that I do NOT think people who score high on IQ tests are superior in life. Or more valuable. In fact watching Jeopardy will make you see that very bright people do not always have the jobs you might expect and some continue to go to school for years.

I believe that knowing an I.Q. score can help a person make choices and also guide his/her educators. I also believe that I.Q. scores do not move much, no matter HOW much education a person gets. It is innate intelligence that is measured. I remember the Wechsler, The Stanford Binet, the Whoopsie (for little kids) and others. My question is to why I.Q. tests are a touchy subject nowadays.

What say you?

[dewilson58]

I is smart.

[Bogie Shooter]

I be smarter to.

[rjm1cc]

I think the question is does the design of the test favor one group of people over another group that has a different culture background. The question is if two people actually have the same IQ but different backgrounds will they score the same.

[manaboutown]

Although excellent nutrition, a pleasant and supportive home environment and access to learning resources may all play parts in optimizing a child’s intelligence development one is born with a certain intellectual capacity. A Schnauzer cannot be turned into a Doberman.

[manaboutown]

I think the question is does the design of the test favor one group of people over another group that has a different culture background. The question is if two people actually have the same IQ but different backgrounds will they score the same.

Bias in Mental Testing - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_in_Mental_Testing)

[billethkid]

I made it a long way through life....a long way....not knowing (or caring actually) what my IQ was/is.

I do not recall anybody ever asking what it was through all my schooling and throughout my corporate career.

I was and remain a believer the cream always rises to the top and have found over the years that IQ/number of degrees are no substitute for experience and an individuals drive.

Yes, for some, there is an advantage.....for some.

It is not as though the calculation for an IQ is an exact science........from Google:

mental age ÷ Physical age × 100 = IQ. No matter what the child's chronological age, if the mental age is the same as the chronological age, then the IQ will equal 100.

Today there are different so called "intelligence testing".

My problem with the concerns of today are the new attitudes whereby there are no failures....the lowering/massaging of measurements to make more folks equal.....does that include IQ calculations as well????

[graciegirl]

I made it a long way through life....a long way....not knowing (or caring actually) what my IQ was/is.

I do not recall anybody ever asking what it was through all my schooling and throughout my corporate career.

I was and remain a believer the cream always rises to the top and have found over the years that IQ/number of degrees are no substitute for experience and an individuals drive.

Yes, for some, there is an advantage.....for some.

It is not as though the calculation for an IQ is an exact science........from Google:

mental age ÷ Physical age × 100 = IQ. No matter what the child's chronological age, if the mental age is the same as the chronological age, then the IQ will equal 100.

Today there are different so called "intelligence testing".

My problem with the concerns of today are the new attitudes whereby there are no failures....the lowering/massaging of measurements to make more folks equal.....does that include IQ calculations as well????

Your points are well taken. However many "gifted" kids are short in other areas, may be clunky socially, not as athletic, tend sometimes to zero in on one subject to the exclusion of another. Just as kids with low I.Q. need guidance to be the best they can be and able to succeed in life, so do some of the gifted.

When I went to school, kids were offered college prep based on I.Q. Others were offered stenography, etc, shop, woodworking, plumbing, electrical etc. Geeks weren't in then, now they are applauded.

I still say acting gooney is acting gooney, no matter what the score says and if someone gets you to acceptable behavior, your chances at success go up in life.

[retiredguy123]

I think the worst advice you can give to a child is recommend that they not go to college. Anyone can and should get a college degree. IQ has nothing to do with it. There are many dumb people with college degrees making big incomes, especially in the Government. The best Government jobs and white collar jobs go to those with a college degree. Being a plumber or carpenter is fine, but you are very limited in your employment opportunities and income potential.

[Madelaine Amee]

I think the worst advice you can give to a child is recommend that they not go to college. Anyone can and should get a college degree. IQ has nothing to do with it. There are many dumb people with college degrees making big incomes, especially in the Government. The best Government jobs and white collar jobs go to those with a college degree. Being a plumber or carpenter is fine, but you are very limited in your employment opportunities and income potential.

I cannot wait to see the replies to this!

[tomwed]

I think the worst advice you can give to a child is recommend that they not go to college. Anyone can and should get a college degree. IQ has nothing to do with it. There are many dumb people with college degrees making big incomes, especially in the Government. The best Government jobs and white collar jobs go to those with a college degree. Being a plumber or carpenter is fine, but you are very limited in your employment opportunities and income potential.I think you always need to train for 2 professions at the same time. Learn a trade and prep for college. I told my sons to take the networking classes offered in high school along with the college prep courses.

The government jobs where I'm from went to the candidates with military service first. That's fair. We're grateful. They were prepping for 2 careers.

When you are in HS you don't think that way. If you are from a family with wealth you can take your time. If not--get a part time job someplace where you can learn a trade or borrow a few bucks and go to a county college at night while you are in HS and learn a trade..

[roob1]

Performing well on Jeopardy is dependent upon a fund of general knowledge. One can have an abundant fund of general knowledge but not necessarily have a high IQ. It is only one aspect of "intelligence" that is measured on IQ measures, especially on the Wechsler scales.

Additionally, some IQ measures (i.e. Wechsler scales) yield both Verbal and Non Verbal scores. The Verbal score better predicts academic success in our school systems, while the Performance score is more closely aligned with visual, hands-on abilities. Incidentally, the subtest on the Wechsler scales that correlates most highly with the Full Scale IQ is a measure of vocabulary.

It is thought that most IQ measures can be best described as predictors of school success, not measures of innate intelligence.


It didn't used to be. I would like to preface this discussion with the disclaimer that I do NOT think people who score high on IQ tests are superior in life. Or more valuable. In fact watching Jeopardy will make you see that very bright people do not always have the jobs you might expect and some continue to go to school for years.

I believe that knowing an I.Q. score can help a person make choices and also guide his/her educators. I also believe that I.Q. scores do not move much, no matter HOW much education a person gets. It is innate intelligence that is measured. I remember the Wechsler, The Stanford Binet, the Whoopsie (for little kids) and others. My question is to why I.Q. tests are a touchy subject nowadays.

What say you?

[fishon]

Relying on I.Q. scores for classroom placement has always been a crapshoot.
The test is most often given and scored by schoolteachers like it was an everyday school quiz.
Without proper instructions before the test and a professional interview after the test, the results should be considered suspect.
If you don't understand the algorithm you shouldn't evaluate the score.

[fishon]

Duplicate post

[fishon]

Geez even

[roob1]

In most districts, individually administered intelligence measures for classroom placement are given by those trained in individual assessment at a graduate level. Training is comprehensive and beyond what a classroom teacher obtains. Classroom placement meaning placement outside of regular education.

Perhaps you are referring to the old, group administered IQ tests given in the 50's and 60's that may have been used for grouping students by ability.

Relying on I.Q. scores for classroom placement has always been a crapshoot.
The test is most often given and scored by schoolteachers like it was an everyday school quiz.
Without proper instructions before the test and a professional interview after the test, the results should be considered suspect.
If you don't understand the algorithm you shouldn't evaluate the score.

[graciegirl]

In most districts, individually administered intelligence measures for classroom placement are given by those trained in individual assessment at a graduate level. Training is comprehensive and beyond what a classroom teacher obtains. Classroom placement meaning placement outside of regular education.

Perhaps you are referring to the old, group administered IQ tests given in the 50's and 60's that may have been used for grouping students by ability.

I agree. I have never heard of an I.Q. test administered by a classroom teacher.

On another note, a good vocabulary is not a dependable way to score intelligence. People who have Williams Syndrome have amazing vocabulary skills in the face of cognitive deficit. They also are able to read non verbal body language better than the rest of us. Dr. Ursula Bellugi, director of Cognitive Development at the Salk Institute studied this and our family was part of the study. Salk scientists also noted that an area at the base of the brain that controls sociality and interaction with others was bigger in people with Williams Syndrome and smaller in people with Autism. People who have Williams Syndrome are charmingly social.

[retiredguy123]

Charmingly social? Whatever Williams Syndrome is, I'm confident that I don't have it.

[Madelaine Amee]

Charmingly social? Whatever Williams Syndrome is, I'm confident that I don't have it.

:icon_wink: Now I really like that!

[fishon]

In most districts, individually administered intelligence measures for classroom placement are given by those trained in individual assessment at a graduate level. Training is comprehensive and beyond what a classroom teacher obtains. Classroom placement meaning placement outside of regular education.

Perhaps you are referring to the old, group administered IQ tests given in the 50's and 60's that may have been used for grouping students by ability.

Well, yeah, 1960's.
Whatchu, just a whippersnapper?

[fw102807]

I think the worst advice you can give to a child is recommend that they not go to college. Anyone can and should get a college degree. IQ has nothing to do with it. There are many dumb people with college degrees making big incomes, especially in the Government. The best Government jobs and white collar jobs go to those with a college degree. Being a plumber or carpenter is fine, but you are very limited in your employment opportunities and income potential.

Tell that to Bill Gates and Steve Jobs

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

They gave us IQ tests in 5th or 6th grade. It was the early 1970's. The only IQ test I've seen since then was one of those silly "Mensa tests" that get bandied about Facebook all the time. You know the ones: "Nine out of ten people couldn't figure these out! Can you?" Colleges didn't ask for IQ test results. They asked for SAT or Achievement scores. It's a good thing, too. I tanked the IQ tests because I don't do well with timed multiple choice tests. Yet I was reading on a college level in Junior High school. I also tanked my SATs, with around a 1300 combined score. And yet, I scored the top 10% in the school district, and the top 1% in my school, for the English Achievement.

Part of the problem with IQ tests is that they don't measure your intelligence. They measure your ability to correctly answer multiple choice questions in a short period of time. Considering that most of those questions only have 4 or 5 possible answers, you have a 20-25% chance of getting it right, just by taking a wild guess. Guessing based on "what seems like a good answer" will give you almost a 50% chance at guessing correctly. You don't need to know the answer. You only need to be a good guesser, and you need to be able to guess quickly.

The other part of the problem is bias, which someone already mentioned. The wikipedia entry is a good summary explanation of that.

[retiredguy123]

If IQ tests are going to deny some people from attending college, then it is wrong. I think that everyone can and should get a college degree. It's easy peasy and will be a lifetime asset. I have worked with some very low IQ people who had college degrees, and made hugh salaries just because of the degree.

[graciegirl]

If IQ tests are going to deny some people from attending college, then it is wrong. I think that everyone can and should get a college degree. It's easy peasy and will be a lifetime asset. I have worked with some very low IQ people who had college degrees, and made hugh salaries just because of the degree.

I think I disagree. That is a little simplistic. There are degrees and there are degrees. People may be skilled in language and not in math. Some may be good in science but not at teaching. Some may simply not be good in college. I don't think that you mean "some very low IQ people" because that would mean an IQ of 70 or less. As I say, we are not born equal, but we are all born valuable and we all have limits to abilities.

I.Q. tests would not deny someone entrance to college. It isn't used as a screening test for entrance to anything. It shows the areas of strength and weakness in a persons ability to think, solve, reason, access. compare and learn.

In Austria, only the upper portion of the class scholastically are allowed to go to college and it is paid for by the government.

I keep thinking we are doing it wrong here. Too many people live off their student loans and never really learn much.. They keep getting money whether they do well or not. I think that sometimes we encourage people to scam the system when it comes to education.

[ColdNoMore]

IQ tests do not predict success.

EQ tests are a much better predictor of having a meaningful life that enriches others and in identifying the leading trait that produces all-around decent people...that being 'empathy.'


Intelligence Quotient versus Emotional Quotient (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iq-versus-eq-emotional-intelligence-in-the-workplace_us_5a56590be4b024fa0543b62d)

According to Harvard Business Review, emotional intelligence (EQ) is “the key attribute that distinguishes outstanding performers,” and is the leading differentiator between employees whose IQ and technical skills are approximately the same.

In fact, in a 2015 study, TalentSmart found that EQ is the strongest predictor of work performance, accounting for 58% of success in all fields.


:ho:

[Abby10]

I is smart.

We know you is.

[graciegirl]

We know you is.

Dew is. In all the good ways.

[billethkid]

I think I disagree. That is a little simplistic. There are degrees and there are degrees. People may be skilled in language and not in math. Some may be good in science but not at teaching. Some may simply not be good in college. I don't think that you mean "some very low IQ people" because that would mean an IQ of 70 or less. As I say, we are not born equal, but we are all born valuable and we all have limits to abilities.

I.Q. tests would not deny someone entrance to college. It isn't used as a screening test for entrance to anything. It shows the areas of strength and weakness in a persons ability to think, solve, reason, access. compare and learn.

In Austria, only the upper portion of the class scholastically are allowed to go to college and it is paid for by the government.

I keep thinking we are doing it wrong here. Too many people live off their student loans and never really learn much.. They keep getting money whether they do well or not. I think that sometimes we encourage people to scam the system when it comes to education.

And in today's world they ask for the loan to be forgiven because they cannot afford to live their lifestyle and repay the loans.

I did not mean to hijack the thread intent....but being one who religiously paid their loan back, it is difficult to not comment...it does have a soothing effect (about all one can get):duck:

[tomwed]

I keep thinking we are doing it wrong here. Too many people live off their student loans and never really learn much.. They keep getting money whether they do well or not. I think that sometimes we encourage people to scam the system when it comes to education.
The scam is if you go to college you are guaranteed to make a lot of money. If you go to a junior college that is very inexpensive you get another chance [HS was your first chance] to see if you have what it takes in academics.

If you go to college you may make a lot of money when the degree matches the jobs that are vacant and high paying in engineering, science, business, computer science. The positions are vacant because the subject is difficult for average people with average IQ's. Some schools will recruit students leading them to believe that borrowing $40k/year to study French, Children's Literature Writing, or Communications at a University or Private Institution will pay off in the long run. That is a con job IMHO. Just when you are starting adult life you have big debt.

[billethkid]

Seems to be a built in knee jerk reaction on here to any facts, if they are not applauding.......I posted but was deleted because anything factual seems to be taboo.

Anyway, anyone interested in the birth of the student loan "forgiveness" etc., PLEASE read and learn the history and adjustments made to this plan that allows 60% of ALL college students to matriculate at higher learning institutions.

Student loans in the United States - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_the_United_States)

Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Service_Loan_Forgiveness_(PSLF))

To say that the student loan program is a "scam" is scandalous in itself. It may need work and your critique should be taken up with our current government to do the WORK required.

Right now, it is scheduled to be totally done away in a manner but as we all know it is not that cut and dry, but before calling it a "scam".

Ted CruZ, Marco Rubio are two examples of folks who used student loans.

To submit this opportunity as a "scam" is just wrong. BETTER to criticize instead of WORKING to fix a beneficial program for our country.

Please note that no where in my comments do I refer to the student loans as a scam. My commentary is aimed at those who applied for and received loans, understanding their commitment/obligation to repay. Then, too many try to cry lack of affordability for having such an obligation and the beginning of their lives.
We all knew the financial obligation being undertaken when applying....no excuse for forgiving the loans....a bad practice from politicians working on building up a following!!

As in my original commentary, none of the above infers a scam.

[Bucco]

Please note that no where in my comments do I refer to the student loans as a scam. My commentary is aimed at those who applied for and received loans, understanding their commitment/obligation to repay. Then, too many try to cry lack of affordability for having such an obligation and the beginning of their lives.
We all knew the financial obligation being undertaken when applying....no excuse for forgiving the loans....a bad practice from politicians working on building up a following!!

As in my original commentary, none of the above infers a scam.

I apologize...another poster used that word, not you.

Actually, that was not the point. You are making a very very GENERAL point that DOES NOT APPLY to the whole in any way at all.

I believe these opportunities have helped millions who contribute much to our country and society because this was afforded to them.

It seem LAZY on the part of our government, not those taking the loan to not even discuss or engage in public conversation about the good offered and changes that could be made and simply do away with it. Actually, at this point, with so much, it is just words but I believe our congress needs to wake up and GO TO WORK.

You just should not simply cancel programs because it is politically expediant. If you read the links I provided you will see this program of forgiving was introduced and founded on a great idea and basis....you have to work on jobs that benefited society or non profit to have the chance for forgiveness, and an attempt was made to put a ceiling on that with no luck.

Very short sight sided to simply cancel.

[retiredguy123]

I think that forgiving a student loan based on working for the Federal Government is absurd. A federal job is not "public service", it is a gravy train. I worked for the Federal Government because they paid more money, provided more benefits, and required less work than any other job I could find.

[Bucco]

I think that forgiving a student loan based on working for the Federal Government is absurd. A federal job is not "public service", it is a gravy train. I worked for the Federal Government because they paid more money, provided more benefits, and required less work than any other job I could find.

I think instead of rash, incorrect statements, perhaps you should review the kind of forgiveness programs exist, and the requirements.

Discussing issues, sans real facts, is no discussion at all.

The Complete List of Student Loan Forgiveness Programs and Options | Student Loan Hero (https://studentloanhero.com/featured/the-complete-list-of-student-loan-forgiveness-programs/)

And then weigh pros and cons, and if you still feel that this program, vital to so many successful and productive people, should be terminated...so be it, but do it based on facts, not high pitched verbal word cabbage.

I still believe the lazy ones are those who simply want to erase things from existence with no discussions.

[retiredguy123]

I think instead of rash, incorrect statements, perhaps you should review the kind of forgiveness programs exist, and the requirements.

Discussing issues, sans real facts, is no discussion at all.

The Complete List of Student Loan Forgiveness Programs and Options | Student Loan Hero (https://studentloanhero.com/featured/the-complete-list-of-student-loan-forgiveness-programs/)

And then weigh pros and cons, and if you still feel that this program, vital to so many successful and productive people, should be terminated...so be it, but do it based on facts, not high pitched verbal word cabbage.

I still believe the lazy ones are those who simply want to erase things from existence with no discussions.
I'm confused. I don't think my statements were incorrect. Federal employment qualifies for student loan forgiveness of up to $60,000. OPM calls them loan payments, not loan forgiveness, but it amounts to the same thing. My only other point is my opinion that I think having a federal job is more of a benefit to the employee than to the Government. We don't need to offer an incentive to get people to accept federal jobs. They are in high demand.

[Moderator]

The original topic was using IQ scores for student placement. Please get back on topic or the thread will be closed.

If you wish to have a non political discussion about student loans, please feel free to start another thread.

Moderator.

[Bucco]

I'm confused. I don't think my statements were incorrect. Federal employment qualifies for student loan forgiveness of up to $60,000. OPM calls them loan payments, not loan forgiveness, but it amounts to the same thing. My only other point is my opinion that I think having a federal job is more of a benefit to the employee than to the Government. We don't need to offer an incentive to get people to accept federal jobs. They are in high demand.

Incorrect, in general, no......misleading and in complete..yes they are.

Those four requirements are:

You must have received your Student Loan under the William D. Ford Federal Direct Loan Program, and your loan may not be in, or have ever been in default

You must make 120, full, on-time and scheduled monthly payments on your Direct Loan (and only payments made after October 1st, 2007 will count toward the required 120)

You must make those 120 monthly payments while enrolled in a qualifying Federal Student Loan Repayment Plan

You must be, or have been working in a full-time position at a qualifying public service organization (any Government position counts) at the time each of those 120 monthly payments were mde.

I am offended at the general comments about those who have or ever had a student loan.

Ask who is and has been making money on these young people...Wall St for starters.

These are young people who simply wanted an education, could not afford it, and took out a student loan to make their life better.

In 2000, some recognized how the repayment, interest, etc was eating up these people, and a proposal was passed to allow forgiveness, UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS, all purported to be in the best interests of our country.

Allowing those who faithfully had made payments for TEN years and were working in what lawmakers considered non profit or public service jobs to have a way out made sense.

An attempt to cap the "forgiveness" was attempted during last administration but never made it even to the floor.

I just don't see the fairness of painting such a negative picture of people with no facts, and only vague generalities.

To simply cancel these programs and tell them to declare bankruptcy is, to me, a very lazy way out.

Why is there no discussion on the program itself. Posts on this limited thread simply paint a very false picture.

Discussion ..sure.....but to not even take up the issue, take remedial action where necessary is lazier than the picture being painted of those who use this chance to move on. Those who are making money on these young people sure must like this.

I realize as everyone seems overjoyed to point out that these folks knew their obligation....all the programs require the ten year on time payments....all the programs have a continuing and increasing interest rate...all the programs require a total repayment if default.....why is not our congress WORKING on discussing and resolving, or is cancellation with no discussion the new way

[Bucco]

The original topic was using IQ scores for student placement. Please get back on topic or the thread will be closed.

If you wish to have a non political discussion about student loans, please feel free to start another thread.

Moderator.

Sorry...the post that follows yours was being typed when yours was posted.

[dewilson58]

I Q Tests are just a tool, not an end-all.

It measures how you did on a test that day and compares how other people did "on the same test" on a given day.

[retiredguy123]

My experience with college is that having a high IQ is really not needed to get a college degree. College work, especially some college subjects, are so easy that a student's IQ has very little effect on being able to get a passing grade. However, those who get a college degree have a lifetime advantage over those who don't. I think it would be wrong to use IQ as a qualifier for college attendance. My opinion would change if colleges decided to become more challenging in their course requirements. But, as it is now, I would encourage any student to attend college and get a degree, regardless of their IQ. If you work hard enough, you can get the degree, and you will benefit from it.