Serious "priest" question

[HandyGrandpap]

Having grown up catholic, yes confession every week, in Pittsburgh, in many of the older large churches the nuns also resided in the same generally large rectories as the priest. It was very highly suspected that inappropriate behavior initiated by the priest took place in the rectories. I am interested in opinions regarding why those complaints by the nuns have never surfaced? Your thoughts

[Barefoot]

...

[Polar Bear]

If you grew up as a serious Catholic, I’m surprised that you don't know how to spell nuns.
My first thought also.

[retiredguy123]

I went to Catholic school for 8 years in Baltimore, and was an altar boy. Never saw any wrong doing from any nun or priest.

[rjn5656]

Me either.

[graciegirl]

Me either.

I have never seen a building where priests and nuns live together. One kind lived in a rectory. The other kind lived in a convent.


Our daughter's first grade teacher, Sister Dorothy married a young priest from our parish.


I have known lots and lots of dedicated, Godly clergy.

I have known a few who weren't Godly. I too am saddened by the recent news from Pennsylvania. Our churches in Ohio are nearly empty on Sundays and Holy days.

I must say that there is the Institutional church and then there is the church community.

[B-flat]

I went to Catholic school for 8 years in Baltimore, and was an altar boy. Never saw any wrong doing from any nun or priest.

Ditto. Parochial school grades 1 to 8, I was an altar boy and went to a Catholic H.S. Never any hint of wrong doing other than the nuns slapping me around for not being a good boy. :boxing2:

[Schaumburger]

Ditto. Parochial school grades 1 to 8, I was an altar boy and went to a Catholic H.S. Never any hint of wrong doing other than the nuns slapping me around for not being a good boy. :boxing2:

I attended a Catholic grammar school and high school in Dubuque, Iowa in the 1960's-1970's. Nothing happened at my grammar school that I know of during the time I was there. Unfortunately long after I graduated from my grammar school, some cases of abuse were reported probably about 12 years ago. The Archdiocese of Dubuque paid over $5 million to 26 victims several years ago. The Archdiocese of Chicago has also paid out millions to victims. Same thing has occurred in many other dioceses and archdioceses across the U.S. -- millions paid out to abuse victims.

This has happened from coast to coast...extremely sad; makes me angry that this abuse of children happened for decades with bishops, archbishops and cardinals looking the other way. :mad:

[paulat585]

Having grown up catholic, yes confession every week, in Pittsburgh, in many of the older large churches the nuns also resided in the same generally large rectories as the priest. It was very highly suspected that inappropriate behavior initiated by the priest took place in the rectories. I am interested in opinions regarding why those complaints by the nuns have never surfaced? Your thoughts
There was a mention in one of the articles written about the PA cases that "nuns" were pursuing legal action also. I will try to find the link.

[billethkid]

In any population, group, gathering, membership, et al, there will always be a statistical opportunity for a bad act/actor or mis-deed, serious or other wise.

The isolated or minority representation, like this subject, and unfortunately too many others, tend to be presented as general conditions when they are not.

Those of us who have been catholic all our lives most likely have never or will become aware of serious incident.
Eighty years, catholic schools including college and many churches over our life time.....no hint of wrong doing anywhere....which is the more typical representation.

General conditions derived from isolated incidents are very mis-leading.

[paulat585]

There was a mention in one of the articles written about the PA cases that "nuns" were pursuing legal action also. I will try to find the link.

Vatican Meets #MeToo: Nuns Denounce Their Abuse by Priests (https://www.voanews.com/a/vatican-meets-metoo-nuns-denounce-their-abuse-by-priests/4504022.html)

[maureenod]

In any population, group, gathering, membership, et al, there will always be a statistical opportunity for a bad act/actor or mis-deed, serious or other wise.

The isolated or minority representation, like this subject, and unfortunately too many others, tend to be presented as general conditions when they are not.

Those of us who have been catholic all our lives most likely have never or will become aware of serious incident.
Eighty years, catholic schools including college and many churches over our life time.....no hint of wrong doing anywhere....which is the more typical representation.

General conditions derived from isolated incidents are very mis-leading.
Massive cover-up , priests moved from parish to parish. Parents never went to police and if they did police took no action.

[billethkid]

Massive cover-up , priests moved from parish to parish. Parents never went to police and if they did police took no action.

Just like Hollywood, corporate America, Congress, etc, etc.......just about anyplace where males and females co-exist, haves and have nots, upper and lower class, etc.

The common denominator?
Males and females present!!

Another pattern is how such goings on can be kept secret for years and years and then all of a sudden "discovered" and then the me too multitudes come forward.

None of the above is intended as support for the wrong doings. Just merely pointing out the unfortunate reality of certain events/environments.

[Taltarzac725]

Spotlight (2015) - Rotten Tomatoes (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/spotlight_2015/)

This is a great movie about how this kind of evil flourishes at times and in certain conditions.

The problem to me seems to be over-rigid adherence to a moral code that does not reflect the private needs of people verbally committing to this code but not following it in practice as it ignores reality. Gay men preying on boys they are supposed to be educating and protecting.

Gay men should be allowed to marry other gay men. Or date them. Some of the Catholic morality just does not seem to recognize real life situations. Maybe they would not prey on boys if they had the possibility of dating other gay men.

[tomwed]

When I was old enough to be an alter boy I asked if I could join. My friends were accepted and I was turned down and instead they made me a patrol boy. My big job was to safely get kindergartners and first graders across a busy street. We had 2 parish priests, one was fun to be with and a bit of a ladies man. We figured that out as we became of age. The other was angry most of the time and as little ones we were scared of him. He was my second cousin. I remember telling my mother that I get nervous around him, lot's of kids did. He could be violent but as kids we thought that was a justifiable option. My mother sent me to my grandmother who told me that as kids he was called Fat Little Andy. I think Fat Little Andy blackballed me from being an Alter Boy. The nun told me that I wasn't very good in English and not bright enough to be an Alter Boy. I just wanted to get out of class for funerals and make tips, just like my friends. Maybe they knew. I also could make my friends break up when they were supposed to be quiet. Maybe that was it. I never heard of anything improper in my Parish but still wonder why I was excluded. As kids we did live in fear more then respect for the clergy.

[Taltarzac725]

When I was old enough to be an alter boy I asked if I could join. My friends were accepted and I was turned down and instead they made me a patrol boy. My big job was to safely get kindergartners and first graders across a busy street. We had 2 parish priests, one was fun to be with and a bit of a ladies man. We figured that out as we became of age. The other was angry most of the time and as little ones we were scared of him. He was my second cousin. I remember telling my mother that I get nervous around him, lot's of kids did. He could be violent but as kids we thought that was a justifiable option. My mother sent me to my grandmother who told me that as kids he was called Fat Little Andy. I think Fat Little Andy blackballed me from being an Alter Boy. The nun told me that I wasn't very good in English and not bright enough to be an Alter Boy. I just wanted to get out of class for funerals and make tips, just like my friends. Maybe they knew. I also could make my friends break up when they were supposed to be quiet. Maybe that was it. I never heard of anything improper in my Parish but still wonder why I was excluded. As kids we did live in fear more then respect for the clergy.

I was raised a Lutheran so some of these kind of problems did not present themselves. I did go to BYU Law School on a Merit Scholarship in 1982 but realized quickly that I would not be able to live up the the rigid moral code that they had. And I was about the only unmarried guy at that law school. Which only had a handful of women law students. Plus my roommate was a recent convert to Mormonism and wanted to gain points with his new religious leaders by converting me. The women in the BYU dorm also had me lined up for the alter, so to speak, as soon as they found out I was a single law student at BYU.


Soon went to a very expensive Methodist university -- the U of Denver-- where the men and women acted like you would expect 20+ years old to act. Drugs, sex, and rock and roll, etc. Not mine so much as I did still carry the world view that at one time had made BYU look OK. Us librarianship graduate students liked to party.

I had met Mormons in Reno, Nevada that really old gave their moral code lip service. But at BYU you have all kinds of eyes and ears on you all the time.

Did go to the U of MN Law School in 1986 which had more women than men in its starting Class of 1989 but they kept us so busy the First Year of law school that I doubt if many of us thought of anything but law books.

[PennBF]

Spelling of "Nun's" is not important as all know who is being addressed. It is critical to remember that Nun's have no power. The power is with the priests. Where is the best hiding place for a pedophile? In the church? It is not a crime limited to the Catholic Church although the basic behavioral requirements to be a Priest is more favorable to this terrible problem. Nun's are essentially a "servant" of the Priest so to bring them into the equation is unfair although some also have their problems with this behavior.
As long as the Vatican tolerates this by neglecting to install the equivalent consequences it will continue and my guess would be at the same level as today. We should all feel bad for the life long harm this does to a child. :pray:

[Taltarzac725]

Spelling of "Nun's" is not important as all know who is being addressed. It is critical to remember that Nun's have no power. The power is with the priests. Where is the best hiding place for a pedophile? In the church? It is not a crime limited to the Catholic Church although the basic behavioral requirements to be a Priest is more favorable to this terrible problem. Nun's are essentially a "servant" of the Priest so to bring them into the equation is unfair although some also have their problems with this behavior.
As long as the Vatican tolerates this by neglecting to install the equivalent consequences it will continue and my guess would be at the same level as today. We should all feel bad for the life long harm this does to a child. :pray:

The nuns and other female nurturing elements in the Catholic Church do need to have a lot more power in that political structure. I heard a nun pretty much say that yesterday when they had a segment on the Pope visiting Ireland. This was on CBS News last night or maybe the day before.

[blueash]

Gay men preying on boys they are supposed to be educating and protecting.

Gay men should be allowed to marry other gay men. Or date them. Some of the Catholic morality just does not seem to recognize real life situations. Maybe they would not prey on boys if they had the possibility of dating other gay men.

No, double no, triple no. This is not an issue of gay men. Gay men are not pedophiles. Normal straight men do not seek or abuse underage girls or children as sex objects. Normal gay men do not seek or abuse underage boys as sex objects.
The issue is not sexual orientation. The issue is pedophilia.

[Taltarzac725]

No, double no, triple no. This is not an issue of gay men. Gay men are not pedophiles. Normal straight men do not seek or abuse underage girls or children as sex objects. Normal gay men do not seek or abuse underage boys as sex objects.
The issue is not sexual orientation. The issue is pedophilia.

I never said they were. I did write that they should do away with celibacy as a concept in the Catholic Church. It ignores basic human needs of intimacy. Any many of these men are gay judging by their attraction to boys and probably to other men. But older men would be harder to control for these priests. They do not go after girls in their care. If there are any. A lot of this seems to be about power and control. And manipulation.

[spring_chicken]

Just like Hollywood, corporate America, Congress, etc, etc.......just about anyplace where males and females co-exist, haves and have nots, upper and lower class, etc.

The common denominator?
Males and females present!!

Another pattern is how such goings on can be kept secret for years and years and then all of a sudden "discovered" and then the me too multitudes come forward.

None of the above is intended as support for the wrong doings. Just merely pointing out the unfortunate reality of certain events/environments.

Others are referring to the RAPE of CHILDREN, you bring up workplace sexual harassment?
I know the OP was about nuns, but the thread was quickly derailed to the children and the massive coverup.

[graciegirl]

No, double no, triple no. This is not an issue of gay men. Gay men are not pedophiles. Normal straight men do not seek or abuse underage girls or children as sex objects. Normal gay men do not seek or abuse underage boys as sex objects.
The issue is not sexual orientation. The issue is pedophilia.

Exactly. But pedophilia is a sexual orientation, I think. But as you say, it is not homosexuality at all. Victims don't become homosexuals because they have been victimized by a pedophile, but they carry the memory of the pain and ugliness for their whole lives. Both men and women can be pedophiles.

We cannot really teach about this, because I don't think any valid studies have been made on the subject. My opinion is that a person is born with their sexual orientation. It cannot be changed by therapy or punishment so the behavior continues for a persons life. Pedophilia seeks gratification from unwilling, weaker children and is heinous to us. I think that the whole sexual orientation thing is emotional and confusing because we only really know and understand our own. And may be repulsed by others. Most people are comfortable about what consenting adults do in private. I know I am, but pedophilia is extremely disturbing to me and most.

Now that I know that pedophiles are drawn toward groups and organizations that are trusting, I look back and wonder about a lot of situations in scout and church groups that didn't ever directly affect me. Our public grade school principal was a pedophile. He committed suicide in the school basement after it was discovered he had impregnated a sixth grader. Now I find myself suspicious of male grade school teachers. We cannot help our questioning, or our instinctive reactions. I have often thought pedophiles should be castrated.

[graciegirl]

Others are referring to the RAPE of CHILDREN, you bring up workplace sexual harassment?
I know the OP was about nuns, but the thread was quickly derailed to the children and the massive coverup.

Billethekid just brought up another issue that involves sexual activity. He is a very thoughtful poster and like most of us, discussions about one thing on this forum leads us to think about other related issues.

Many of us grew up not hearing sexual matters discussed and now find the world discussing all sorts of things relating to sex. I know one thing, sex is a powerful force. Every person in a huge stadium all got here because of it. We need to understand it and respect it. It has felled strong governments and destroyed civilizations. It has also cemented good and loving relationships, inspired art and music and is in general a wonderful thing.


.

[Nucky]

Priest should be allowed to marry, period.

Those found guilty should be punished immediately. Those who covered up what they knew should be punished.

The Nuns never Rat on the Priest because they had to Change Their Habits.

Proud non practicing Catholic but sick over this situation, just terrible. Those poor children. How can they be helped? Help them first then deal with the scum who hid behind the church.

Reminds me of Ray Donovan, permanent damage I think, what a sin.

[eweissenbach]

In any population, group, gathering, membership, et al, there will always be a statistical opportunity for a bad act/actor or mis-deed, serious or other wise.

The isolated or minority representation, like this subject, and unfortunately too many others, tend to be presented as general conditions when they are not.

Those of us who have been catholic all our lives most likely have never or will become aware of serious incident.
Eighty years, catholic schools including college and many churches over our life time.....no hint of wrong doing anywhere....which is the more typical representation.

General conditions derived from isolated incidents are very mis-leading.

With all due respect, despite your, or any individual's experience, these incidents are far from isolated events. They are widespread and systematic. I am afraid that trying to excuse them as isolated or overblown tends to perpetuate the problem.

[Taltarzac725]

Do Catholic priests have a worse abuse problem than most? - xkcd (http://www.forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=74907)

Found this very interesting about Catholics and insurance carriers with respect to abuse by priests.

Since the mid-1980s, insurance companies have offered sexual misconduct coverage as a rider on liability insurance, and their own studies indicate that Catholic churches are not higher risk than other congregations. Insurance companies that cover all denominations, such as Guide One Center for Risk Management, which has more than 40,000 church clients, does not charge Catholic churches higher premiums. "We don't see vast difference in the incidence rate between one denomination and another," says Sarah Buckley, assistant vice president of corporate communications. "It's pretty even across the denominations."

From the link which is from something else.

[SFSkol]

Exactly. But pedophilia is a sexual orientation, I think......

Quite a very controversial position.
Scholar Calls Pedophilia 'An Unchangeable Sexual Orientation' that Should Be Accepted by Society | CBN News (http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/health/2018/july/scholar-says-pedophilia-is-an-unchangeable-sexual-orientation-and-should-be-accepted-by-society)

Moreso, pedophila is an opportunistic crime, not a specific orientation.

Growing up in Catholic Brooklyn, one of my childhood aspirations was to be an altar boy. Father John was fond of rewarding us trainees with a swat on the rear. This plus Nuns rapping my hands with a ruler for writing left-handed, quickly turned me away from organized religion.

[graciegirl]

Sorry. WAY too much time on my hands.

[ColdNoMore]

With all due respect, despite your, or any individual's experience, these incidents are far from isolated events. They are widespread and systematic. I am afraid that trying to excuse them as isolated or overblown tends to perpetuate the problem.

ABSOLUTELY!! :mad:

[My Post]

Interesting thread to read. Interesting opinions. Life long Catholic. I'm about done. Someone said to me the other day, why would anyone listen to the words of people alive in the bronze age? They didn't know where the sun "went" at night. They didn't know the land we are on even existed.

Have heard it before of course, but this time it kinda stuck with me. This Pope is a Socialist and Communist at the same time. Not a fan. He wants redistribution of wealth? How about starting with some of that stolen art?
With that said I find going to mass comforting and have met many great Clergy members. Also unfortunately there was a terrible incident in the 80s in my Parish is New Jersey. And in retrospect, we shoulda saw it coming.

I have never been abused in any way and feel terrible for anyone that has been. The nuns are supposed to be "married to God."
I'm sort of embarrassed to say that sounds sort of cultist to me.

[graciegirl]

Interesting thread to read. Interesting opinions. Life long Catholic. I'm about done. Someone said to me the other day, why would anyone listen to the words of people alive in the bronze age? They didn't know where the sun "went" at night. They didn't know the land we are on even existed.

Have heard it before of course, but this time it kinda stuck with me. This Pope is a Socialist and Communist at the same time. Not a fan. He wants redistribution of wealth? How about starting with some of that stolen art?
With that said I find going to mass comforting and have met many great Clergy members. Also unfortunately there was a terrible incident in the 80s in my Parish is New Jersey. And in retrospect, we shoulda saw it coming.

I have never been abused in any way and feel terrible for anyone that has been. The nuns are supposed to be "married to God."
I'm sort of embarrassed to say that sounds sort of cultist to me.

I hear you with my heart. Our family sees this latest terrible concealment as the death knoll for the American Catholic Church. I have many beautiful memories of important life moments that will always be with me. I KNOW good men and women who were true to their vows and an inspiration to their flock. The truth is that celibacy isn't normal. I believe that it was expected because of it's sacrifice to God. People need the cherishing love of another human. That doesn't change the way I feel about the Eucharist. I know the pitfalls of all organized religion and I fight to have faith in God. Because no matter how smart you are, how "realistic" you are, there are times that we all fall to our knees. I feel sad for people who have no faith at all.

[My Post]

I hear you with my heart. Our family sees this latest terrible concealment as the death knoll for the American Catholic Church. I have many beautiful memories of important life moments that will always be with me. I KNOW good men and women who were true to their vows and an inspiration to their flock. The truth is that celibacy isn't normal. I believe that it was expected because of it's sacrifice to God. People need the cherishing love of another human. That doesn't change the way I feel about the Eucharist. I know the pitfalls of all organized religion and I fight to have faith in God. Because no matter how smart you are, how "realistic" you are, there are times that we all fall to our knees. I feel sad for people who have no faith at all.

Yes, that is a very good way to put it! Like...can you be a believer and NOT a believer at the same time? Not to get off track, but we know now from Mother Theresa's diaries that she struggled throughout her life with her faith in terms of what she actually thought, and was NOT a believer in many aspects at the time of her death........Yet, she is Mother Theresa.

Also, as you say, there have been times that there was just no where else to turn....so I try not to be a hypocrite and just turn there when someone is sick or whatever.

[retiredguy123]

I understand that "Spotlight" is an excellent movie on this topic (97 percent on Rotten Tomatoes). It's on Netflix, but I'm too cheap to pay for it yet.

[billethkid]

With all due respect, despite your, or any individual's experience, these incidents are far from isolated events. They are widespread and systematic. I am afraid that trying to excuse them as isolated or overblown tends to perpetuate the problem.

I merely was attempting to state that out of the total population of those "involved" those participating in wrong doing do not represent the majority. While not knowing exact numbers one can pretty much expect numbers to statistically follow the pattern of Paredo's Law (the 80-20 rule).

There was no intent or attempt at trying to excuse anything or intimate the subject was overblown.....no oblique or in between the lines messaging.

Our past and experiences guide us all in what we say, think and..... interpret.

[Henryk]

Having grown up catholic, yes confession every week, in Pittsburgh, in many of the older large churches the nuns also resided in the same generally large rectories as the priest. It was very highly suspected that inappropriate behavior initiated by the priest took place in the rectories. I am interested in opinions regarding why those complaints by the nuns have never surfaced? Your thoughts

In my old parish the rectory and the convent were far from each other, being separated by the large school building.

Come to think of it, I’ve never heard of such a thing.If I remember correctly, the nuns sometimes did light housekeeping (i.e., cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, serving meals, cleaning up, and any other job the priest wanted done).

[Schaumburger]

I think the church hierarchy here in the US may want to start listening to the laity who give of their time and treasure. For many Catholics the days of "pay, pray and obey" are coming to an end.

[My Post]

For many Catholics the days of "pay, pray and obey" are coming to an end.

This is definitely true. Salena Zito, the reporter and life long Pittsburgher and life long practicing Catholic has been writing about this a lot......I like her twitter feed.

[eweissenbach]

I hear you with my heart. Our family sees this latest terrible concealment as the death knoll for the American Catholic Church. I have many beautiful memories of important life moments that will always be with me. I KNOW good men and women who were true to their vows and an inspiration to their flock. The truth is that celibacy isn't normal. I believe that it was expected because of it's sacrifice to God. People need the cherishing love of another human. That doesn't change the way I feel about the Eucharist. I know the pitfalls of all organized religion and I fight to have faith in God. Because no matter how smart you are, how "realistic" you are, there are times that we all fall to our knees. I feel sad for people who have no faith at all.

Very heartfelt and rational post Gracie. Faith is never easy, but it is times like these that test it greatly. Faith in a church a church leader or a religion is often ill-placed, faith in God is not.

[SFSkol]

I merely was attempting to state that out of the total population of those "involved" those participating in wrong doing do not represent the majority. While not knowing exact numbers one can pretty much expect numbers to statistically follow the pattern of Paredo's Law (the 80-20 rule)......

Pareto principle - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle)
...The idea has a rule of thumb application in many places, but it is commonly misused. For example, it is a misuse to state a solution to a problem "fits the 80/20 rule" just because it fits 80% of the cases; it must also be that the solution requires only 20% of the resources that would be needed to solve all cases. Additionally, it is a misuse of the 80/20 rule to interpret a small number of categories or observations.

If the subset of the total population; priests, nuns, pastors, et al, Pareto would predict that 20% would perform crimes, we would have a much more serious social issue.

...I KNOW good men and women who were true to their vows and an inspiration to their flock....

It is preposterous to assume that anyone KNOWS their clergy friends are as pious as they portray. That being said, I have known many of the deeply religious that I believe are good people, with good intentions and hearts.

[Abby10]

Very heartfelt and rational post Gracie. Faith is never easy, but it is times like these that test it greatly. Faith in a church a church leader or a religion is often ill-placed, faith in God is not.

You nailed it, Coach! Was trying to think of a way to say this, but you said it best. :mademyday:

[PennBF]

I was the son of a Protestant Minister and raised in the Parsonage all my life. My wife, who I married 20+ years ago had been a Nun in a Convent. Neither of us miss our young lives and the experiences afterwards. The Church is a great place for pedophiles to hide. It should be noted that pedophiles are not only in the Catholic Clergy but the behavior is shared by all religions. The Catholic Church may have a better chance of that being a hiding place of choice because of the demand of the life style ordered by the church. The fact the church does not make the consequences equal to the crime is most likely a decision based on "costs". That is really a sad testimony to the churches dedication to their true calling. I should add that in fact the Nuns have no power, it is all with the Priests. Some convents are more strict than others but that does not detract from the Priest controlling their lives. :duck::ho:

[Edjkoz]

There was one incident in our parish when I was in grammar school. A priest molested a student. The next day, the seventh and eighth grade boys waited outside of church for the priest. They beat him so badly he had to go to the hospital and was never seen again. No more problems in the parish ever again

[Nucky]

There was one incident in our parish when I was in grammar school. A priest molested a student. The next day, the seventh and eighth grade boys waited outside of church for the priest. They beat him so badly he had to go to the hospital and was never seen again. No more problems in the parish ever again

Good job. Which part of N.J. are you from? :boxing2:

[Schaumburger]

You nailed it, Coach! Was trying to think of a way to say this, but you said it best. :mademyday:

Agree!

[Bleudeturquoise]

Mass of Forgiveness
Was the Bishop's letter regarding sex abuse report read at the Catholic churches in The Villages?

[PennBF]

Wow, how great is this list of comments on an important subject. It is healthy for people to ask why they are in a particular religion? Are they there because their parents were of that religion or because they did an independent study and decided this is what they believe? Do they actually understand the differences between religions? Do they understand or studied why some religions adopted certain practices for their followers to follow or believe? How do these practices have any relationship to following their God? Why some religions tolerate sins and particularly against those that can't protect themselves? It is truly a lot of work to decide on what basis a person decides to follow a certain religion. I would submit that most put more work into choosing a car than deciding the faith for them and their children. As a conclusion if just ONE child is abused that is enough to act as in the end that chld's abuse will go on to impact his/her for life and future generations ! :ho:

[Schaumburger]

After much soul searching and a few years of internal debate, I left Catholicism and joined another denomination 22 years ago, before the abuse scandals started to surface in the early 2000's. After spending the first 35 years of my life as a practicing Catholic, I did not wake up one morning and say, "I think I'm going to join a different denomination today." While I really liked my parish and singing in their large choir, I was having a hard time reconciling my disagreements with certain Catholic teachings. So I voted with my feet.

Ironically it was a former friend of mine who hadn't attended any church in several years who stood up in a restaurant while we were supposed to be eating and said I was "going to hell" for joining another denomination. My answer to her was "Will I be in the same hell as the pedophile priests, or is there a separate hell for former RC members who join another denomination?" This same friend also told me I was "going to hell" for eating meat on Friday during Lent when we were students at Loyola University in the early 1980's.

The congregation I joined in 1996 is still my church home today. About 1/2 of the congregation are former RC members. Our pastor was an RC priest up until about 13 years ago. And the Presiding Bishop of my church, Michael Curry, gave the sermon at the wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle this past May. Presiding Bishop Curry was diagnosed with prostate cancer about a month ago. My congregation and all Episcopalians are keeping Presiding Bishop Curry in our prayers. Fortunately his prognosis for a full recovery looks good, according to reports his office has released.

[graciegirl]

Wow, how great is this list of comments on an important subject. It is healthy for people to ask why they are in a particular religion? Are they there because their parents were of that religion or because they did an independent study and decided this is what they believe? Do they actually understand the differences between religions? Do they understand or studied why some religions adopted certain practices for their followers to follow or believe? How do these practices have any relationship to following their God? Why some religions tolerate sins and particularly against those that can't protect themselves? It is truly a lot of work to decide on what basis a person decides to follow a certain religion. I would submit that most put more work into choosing a car than deciding the faith for them and their children. As a conclusion if just ONE child is abused that is enough to act as in the end that chld's abuse will go on to impact his/her for life and future generations ! :ho:

Many people are better for attempting to follow the basic rule of Christianity which is of course, Do unto others...……..

There is nothing in any faith I know that has sexual abuse of children in it's tenets. I would imagine that most people follow their families in their choice of religion and sometimes choose no religion.

Even those who keep immaculate homes can find dirt if they look hard enough. Society needs to have rules so as not to have chaos. Those rules are usually built on virtues and values found in religion. I have found much good in many religion's philosophies. It is only when people harm others in the name of religion that I become anxious and fearful. Or have tenets in their faith that says someone is better off dead than not a member.


The Roman Catholic church does not seem to value women as much as men. So do other large religions. That seems very wrong to me. I am not a marching feminist, just a strong woman raised by a strong woman who herself was raised by a strong woman who all married solid, fair, good men.

We all have come to this stage of our lives with some things we consider more important than others. It is sort of an "inner religion", a passion, a tipping point in what makes us want to stand up and be heard. It usually has something personal to do with our own lives.

It is hard to figure things out as we grow older. Most of us have far more questions than we have answers. We are facing death and it is years closer than it used to be. We need each other to talk to and to bounce things off of.

This forum is one of the places that happens.

[Rapscallion St Croix]

Anyone who believes that any organized religion has accurately figured out "The Almighty" and their expectations for our behavior has been duped.

[CFrance]

Just like Hollywood, corporate America, Congress, etc, etc.......just about anyplace where males and females co-exist, haves and have nots, upper and lower class, etc.

The common denominator?
Males and females present!!

Another pattern is how such goings on can be kept secret for years and years and then all of a sudden "discovered" and then the me too multitudes come forward.

None of the above is intended as support for the wrong doings. Just merely pointing out the unfortunate reality of certain events/environments.
Wow, it's a lot worse than "males and females present." It's males and little boys and girls present. It's also males who presumably dedicated their souls to God and bringing God to these children. Maybe it's not "the norm," but the number of abuses that have been proven, plus the amount of the cover-up, and added to that the sums of restitution admitted to by the church make it difficult to hear people say it's been overblown or that people are making too much of it.


I separate this from personal faith. But I do believe the Catholic church has grievously erred.

[graciegirl]

Anyone who believes that any organized religion has accurately figured out "The Almighty" and their expectations for our behavior has been duped.

That may be true. Karl Marx said that religion is "The Opium of the people". I never liked him.

There was a priest that I knew, our parish priest, who it was obvious to me was in a relationship with another priest. Father Jim said that there is "the institutional church and the community of God".

He somehow ran our church community in such a way that made so many people feel loving and energized and hopeful. He saw that kind things were done, and people sent to help those who needed help. He had an amazing sense of humor and an ability to put people at ease.

I wouldn't, couldn't ever be an M.D. a priest, rabbi, or pastor of any church. It takes enormous courage to face death and sadness and sin every day on a personal level.

We all know of people who have fleeced their flocks and people who are in religion for the money. Many of us also know personally good examples of people striving to do the right thing who make us want to be like them. You don't have to wear a habit or robes to be an emissary of God.

When is the last time that anyone met a Catholic that did not decide for themselves how many children to have? Many people are married and divorced and remarried. The humans I know are doing the best they can and if gathering together to pray makes it easier, than good.

[paulat585]

Wow, how great is this list of comments on an important subject. It is healthy for people to ask why they are in a particular religion? Are they there because their parents were of that religion or because they did an independent study and decided this is what they believe? Do they actually understand the differences between religions? Do they understand or studied why some religions adopted certain practices for their followers to follow or believe? How do these practices have any relationship to following their God? Why some religions tolerate sins and particularly against those that can't protect themselves? It is truly a lot of work to decide on what basis a person decides to follow a certain religion. I would submit that most put more work into choosing a car than deciding the faith for them and their children. As a conclusion if just ONE child is abused that is enough to act as in the end that chld's abuse will go on to impact his/her for life and future generations ! :ho:

:coolsmiley:

[graciegirl]

Wow, it's a lot worse than "males and females present." It's males and little boys and girls present. It's also males who presumably dedicated their souls to God and bringing God to these children. Maybe it's not "the norm," but the number of abuses that have been proven, plus the amount of the cover-up, and added to that the sums of restitution admitted to by the church make it difficult to hear people say it's been overblown or that people are making too much of it.


I separate this from personal faith. But I do believe the Catholic church has grievously erred.

CFrance , Billethekid was discussing the "Me Too" movement and not the child abuse cover up by the Catholic Church in Pennsylvania. If you read back, you will see that. Someone else responded in the same way you did and Bille, I think cleared that up.

[graciegirl]

I got a note from a kind person suggesting their wonderful church for me.

You know, we sort of each have our own comfortable type of worship. Some churches have a lot of interaction and beautiful Gospel songs, with swaying and movement and their folks dress up and wear charming hats. Some churches have the same liturgy, year after year and do not intereact much with each other during worship or even afterward. Some churches prayers almost sound like a monotone. Some churches are very musical, even having musical instruments accompanying their singing. Some churches have large and beautiful choirs. Some people are required to wear their hair long and wear dresses. Some meet not only on Sunday morning but Sunday Evening and Wednesday nights. Some have a large group of people who rise early every day and attend Mass, silently coming and going without a nod to others.

We each feel comfort in what we are used to

Each church has it's own flavor and many of us are used to worshipping in the way we always have. It feels comfortable, like a old pair of shoes. It would be hard to break in a new pair for many people who attend worship service.

I really think that many people attend a formal worship service less as they age. I do.

[manaboutown]

Predators seek prey rich environments.

[Schaumburger]

One can attend their church/synagogue/house of worship 7 days a week and spend hours in worship. It is how one treats their fellow human beings outside of church, at work, at play, when shopping, when driving, etc. that really counts.

[Schaumburger]

That may be true. Karl Marx said that religion is "The Opium of the people". I never liked him.

There was a priest that I knew, our parish priest, who it was obvious to me was in a relationship with another priest. Father Jim said that there is "the institutional church and the community of God".

He somehow ran our church community in such a way that made so many people feel loving and energized and hopeful. He saw that kind things were done, and people sent to help those who needed help. He had an amazing sense of humor and an ability to put people at ease.

I wouldn't, couldn't ever be an M.D. a priest, rabbi, or pastor of any church. It takes enormous courage to face death and sadness and sin every day on a personal level.

We all know of people who have fleeced their flocks and people who are in religion for the money. Many of us also know personally good examples of people striving to do the right thing who make us want to be like them. You don't have to wear a habit or robes to be an emissary of God.

When is the last time that anyone met a Catholic that did not decide for themselves how many children to have? Many people are married and divorced and remarried. The humans I know are doing the best they can and if gathering together to pray makes it easier, than good.

Very true...we are all called to be emissaries of God...that is what the pastor at my church reminds us every Sunday morning.

[Fraugoofy]

One can attend their church/synagogue/house of worship 7 days a week and spend hours in worship. It is how one treats their fellow human beings outside of church, at work, at play, when shopping, when driving, etc. that really counts.I could not agree with you more!

Sent from my SM-N920R4 using Tapatalk

[Nucky]

I could not agree with you more!

Sent from my SM-N920R4 using Tapatalk

Hey S Burger, you are on the money. Don’t talk the talk, walk the walk. Peace Out! :pray:

[fw102807]

One can attend their church/synagogue/house of worship 7 days a week and spend hours in worship. It is how one treats their fellow human beings outside of church, at work, at play, when shopping, when driving, etc. that really counts.

Truer words were never spoken, I totally agree

[tomwed]

Years ago we attended a wedding in Lambertville, NJ held at the Catholic Church. Then as now, the church was struggling for priests. Before the ceremony the Father comes out and tells the attendees that there is a shortage of priests. And if any of the husbands think they have the calling, and their wife passes away, in the eyes of God you are still eligible. He was a bit less direct. As I looked around I saw many wives shifting round in their seats wondering about their fate knowing that that card is on the table.

He walked away from the alter, disappeared in the vestibule and the organ music commenced.

It was a short ad like you see before a youtube video begins.

I'm not judging. There are probably a good number of men who were good husbands, good fathers and now good priests. And a good number who never considered the priesthood as the next chapter in their life. It just struck me funny. I know if my aunts were sitting there at the reception they would have turned that into the funniest conversation you ever heard. It's the way my family thinks. I miss that. A lot.

[graciegirl]

Years ago we attended a wedding in Lambertville, NJ held at the Catholic Church. Then as now, the church was struggling for priests. Before the ceremony the Father comes out and tells the attendees that there is a shortage of priests. And if any of the husbands think they have the calling, and their wife passes away, in the eyes of God you are still eligible. He was a bit less direct. As I looked around I saw many wives shifting round in their seats wondering about their fate knowing that that card is on the table.

He walked away from the alter, disappeared in the vestibule and the organ music commenced.

It was a short ad like you see before a youtube video begins.

I'm not judging. There are probably a good number of men who were good husbands, good fathers and now good priests. And a good number who never considered the priesthood as the next chapter in their life. It just struck me funny. I know if my aunts were sitting there at the reception they would have turned that into the funniest conversation you ever heard. It's the way my family thinks. I miss that. A lot.

That is how a person thinks who has not been in sales. :1rotfl:

I still like you to pieces, Tomwed. (THAT is his screen name moderator)

[My Post]

Good article from Salena Zito:

When the beloved priest from your childhood turns out to be a monster (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/when-the-beloved-priest-from-your-childhood-turns-out-to-be-a-monster)

[tomwed]

Good article from Salena Zito:

When the beloved priest from your childhood turns out to be a monster (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/when-the-beloved-priest-from-your-childhood-turns-out-to-be-a-monster)It doesn't pass the smell test with all the sisters being wonderful. Everything else seems true.

[PennBF]

I was surprised to learn that lay Catholics are not stimulated to read the bible and it is left to the Priest to interpet the bible for the lay members of the Church. That does not seem right to a "non Catholic" since most churche religions encourage the reading of the Bible as part of their teaching. Does anyone know why this is part of the Catholic churches teaching?:popcorn:

[Taltarzac725]

I was surprised to learn that lay Catholics are not stimulated to read the bible and it is left to the Priest to interpet the bible for the lay members of the Church. That does not seem right to a "non Catholic" since most churche religions encourage the reading of the Bible as part of their teaching. Does anyone know why this is part of the Catholic churches teaching?:popcorn:

Do you have a link for this?? I found this quickly. Daily Reading for Wednesday, August 29th, 2018 - Bible - Catholic Online (https://www.catholic.org/bible/daily_reading/)

That sounds like something from the time of the Reformation and Martin Luther. I mean that something Luther complained about.

[spring_chicken]

I was surprised to learn that lay Catholics are not stimulated to read the bible and it is left to the Priest to interpet the bible for the lay members of the Church. That does not seem right to a "non Catholic" since most churche religions encourage the reading of the Bible as part of their teaching. Does anyone know why this is part of the Catholic churches teaching?:popcorn:

That is exactly my experience with my Catholic friends. My friends have no explanation when I ask them. They tell me they don't even carry a Bible to church.
The priests (who are sinful mortals, just like all of us) are given way too much deity and power over the membership. Perhaps this is why so many are scared to come forward about the abuse. I don't need to go to a priest to confess my sins, I talk to God directly.

[billethkid]

Here is some clarity for those unfamiliar with the use of the bible by catholics:

Do Catholics Read the Bible? - About Catholics (http://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/do-catholics-read-the-bible/)

And like others here, this is just one opinion....submitted by a catholic who thinks it is an accurate representation.

As for who has power over whom and what is taught/revealed or believed is usually 3rd or more hand bias driven.......in my humble opinion....

To each his own....mostly.

[CFrance]

This is what I was taught in a Bible history class... Way back in Biblical times, when the church was first started and was spread throughout the land, it was the job of the priests to go to the people and preach the Bible. There were no church buildings, no bookstores with inexpensive books, most people didn't know how to read anyway, and it became the custom in the early Catholic church that the priests would "carry the message" to the lay people. It wasn't the custom to leave Bibles lying about in church. I don't know if nowadays Bibles are put in the pews. They are in our Presbyterian church, and they were in an Episcopalian church I attended for many years.

Some of the Protestant churches used the fact that their congregants were encouraged to read the Bible and ask questions and make their own interpretations as a positive lure to practice their particular religion. They would say things like, "In the (name a religion that isn't Catholic), you don't have to leave your brain at the door," inferring that Catholics' thought processes were somehow controlled by the church. I have no opinion on this statement whatsoever, but I have actually heard it said by more than a few Protestants.

[graciegirl]

That is exactly my experience with my Catholic friends. My friends have no explanation when I ask them. They tell me they don't even carry a Bible to church.
The priests (who are sinful mortals, just like all of us) are given way too much deity and power over the membership. Perhaps this is why so many are scared to come forward about the abuse. I don't need to go to a priest to confess my sins, I talk to God directly.

Your friends may not have been paying attention. The Liturgy (direct quotes from the New and Old Testament) are part of the Catholic service every day of the year. There are two segments read and a sermon about them. When the segment from the New Testament is read (called the Gospel) all people in church stand up and make a small cross on their foreheads, their lips and their hearts first.(Not the sign of the cross) The priest or deacon will then give a homily, which means a talk about that certain part of the Bible. Different parts of the Bible is read every day of the year at daily Mass. If you were to go to St. Timothy's tomorrow at seven thirty and eight thirty in the morning you would see hundreds of worshipers and hear what the priests says and does...all in English. When a minister or priest or Rabbi is ordained they are said to be given special blessings and are usually respected in a special way.

Catholics don't carry Bibles to church but many do carry their missal which has the Bible reading for that day in it. The Missal is printed and in the pew of most Catholic Churches today. The Bible used by many protestants is called the King James Version or the Knox version and the Bible used by Catholics is called the Duay Rheimes version. Like most Catholics I have a Bible from my family. I have two, King James and Duaey-Rheimes. But I don't read them much anymore, I have to say. Every single person could read and interpret scripture in a lot of different ways and they will argue that their way is the right way. It is not an easy read.

All Catholic parishes these days have Bible studies. And many Catholics go to Bible studies in people's homes.

Here you can see the different versions of the Bible. (Which Catholics call Sacred Scriptures) Vulgate - Douay-Rheims - Knox Bible side by side (http://catholicbible.online/)

There are few who use the confessional or confess to a priest any more in the Catholic church, much has changed since Vatican two decades ago.. There is a general prayer to review your sins (to yourself) and ask God for forgiveness in every Mass.

[manaboutown]

Wow! There is a lot of information in this thread, many things I never understood or even considered.

Thank you all for your thoughtful postings.

[PennBF]

I was told by an Ex-Nun that Catholics are not led to read the bible but to let the Priest interpet it for them. This is a distinct difference between the various churches. i have not seen a real explanation for this practices. I am not being critical of the practice just curious as to why. :ho:

[graciegirl]

I was told by an Ex-Nun that Catholics are not led to read the bible but to let the Priest interpet it for them. This is a distinct difference between the various churches. i have not seen a real explanation for this practices. I am not being critical of the practice just curious as to why. :ho:

Here are the Bible studies listed at St. Tims. One is on Tuesday and one on Wednesdays at the Church, but many have Bible studies in their homes.

All are welcome.

Events (https://sttimothycc.com/events)

[Abby10]

I was told by an Ex-Nun that Catholics are not led to read the bible but to let the Priest interpet it for them. This is a distinct difference between the various churches. i have not seen a real explanation for this practices. I am not being critical of the practice just curious as to why. :ho:

I can only relay my experience for what it's worth. I was a practicing Catholic for 40+ years. Never during that time did I see a bible in the church nor was I encouraged to read it or study it for myself. I was encouraged to do so by my Protestant friends however and that's when I started attending a large non-denominational bible study. Been doing that for 20 years and have come to believe that my faith is not based on a religion but on a relationship. Having said that I have since been led by my faith to go to churches that are bible based.

You will hear no bashing of the Catholic church from me. I still love the worship and reverence found in the Catholic churches. To me, it is hard to beat certain aspects of that religion. However, there is a big difference between hearing about the bible at church and studying it on your own (alone and with a group). I believe with all my heart that one needs both to get the "full experience" and to build that personal relationship.

Having said all that, the Catholic church does seem to be moving forward with holding bible studies at their parishes. I have never attended one but have friends from my non-denominational study who have been involved. They are very hopeful that things will progress in the church in that direction.

[graciegirl]

I can only relay my experience for what it's worth. I was a practicing Catholic for 40+ years. Never during that time did I see a bible in the church nor was I encouraged to read it or study it for myself. I was encouraged to do so by my Protestant friends however and that's when I started attending a large non-denominational bible study. Been doing that for 20 years and have come to believe that my faith is not based on a religion but on a relationship. Having said that I have since been led by my faith to go to churches that are bible based.

You will hear no bashing of the Catholic church from me. I still love the worship and reverence found in the Catholic churches. To me, it is hard to beat certain aspects of that religion. However, there is a big difference between hearing about the bible at church and studying it on your own (alone and with a group). I believe with all my heart that one needs both to get the "full experience" and to build that personal relationship.

Having said all that, the Catholic church does seem to be moving forward with holding bible studies at their parishes. I have never attended one but have friends from my non-denominational study who have been involved. They are very hopeful that things will progress in the church in that direction.

No bashing from me either. I don't attend often anymore. We each have our own beliefs or lack of them.

The question was why Catholics don't use the Bible. Here is the Bible reading that was read this morning.

Today's mass reading from the Bible August/29/2018 (catholic church, Gospel word of God for the day) ~ DevotionHour.com (http://www.devotionhour.com/2018/08/todays-mass-reading-from-bible_28.html)

My experience with Bible studies is that it is a good reason to come together and assuredly it must be held in favor by the big guy, but it is a tough read with old fashioned language and open for a lot of interpretation.

AND Today's reading of the Bible shows us all that scandal and marital infidelity and terrible repercussions from the man woman thing are not new. ..MY interpretation.

[tomwed]

I went to an all boys high school and half of the teachers were brothers. This was after Pope John XXIII, the assassinations and the riots. Critical thinking skills were part of all the subjects except math. As a freshman this was a pretty big pill to swallow.

[Abby10]

No bashing from me either. I don't attend often anymore. We each have our own beliefs or lack of them.

The question was why Catholics don't use the Bible. Here is the Bible reading that was read this morning.

Today's mass reading from the Bible August/29/2018 (catholic church, Gospel word of God for the day) ~ DevotionHour.com (http://www.devotionhour.com/2018/08/todays-mass-reading-from-bible_28.html)

My experience with Bible studies is that it is a good reason to come together and assuredly it must be held in favor by the big guy, but it is a tough read with old fashioned language and open for a lot of interpretation.

AND Today's reading of the Bible shows us all that scandal and marital infidelity and terrible repercussions from the man woman thing are not new. ..MY interpretation.

Just for clarification purposes - I understand that the church reads from the bible during each mass and often times addresses the subject matter in the homily. I was thinking that PennBF was looking for more than that which is why I responded the way I did. Sorry if I was not on topic. I wish I knew the reason why the church doesn't, or at least didn't, outwardly promote personal bible study but I did not want to make a presumption regarding that although I too have heard what some others on here have already stated. Was just relaying my own personal experience, again for what it's worth which may be NOTHING. :icon_wink:

As far as your experience with bible studies, I understand that too. That's pretty much how I felt and is why my Protestant friends had to get me to look at it as a book study to even get me to consider going. It is a rather intense study, not a coffee klatch style study, but one with homework, indepth questions, sharing in groups, and then a lecture by an experienced, trained lay person. With all those things in place, and most importantly, a willingness to learn and know, it becomes a much easier read. I will finish with this - I went there knowing NOTHING and came out a changed person. Certainly still far from perfect, but definitely changed.

There is a study just like the one I refer to right in The Villages. If anyone is interested in knowing more about it, please feel free to pm me.

[graciegirl]

Just for clarification purposes - I understand that the church reads from the bible during each mass and often times addresses the subject matter in the homily. I was thinking that PennBF was looking for more than that which is why I responded the way I did. Sorry if I was not on topic. I wish I knew the reason why the church doesn't, or at least didn't, outwardly promote personal bible study but I did not want to make a presumption regarding that although I too have heard what some others on here have already stated. Was just relaying my own personal experience, again for what it's worth which may be NOTHING. :icon_wink:

As far as your experience with bible studies, I understand that too. That's pretty much how I felt and is why my Protestant friends had to get me to look at it as a book study to even get me to consider going. It is a rather intense study, not a coffee klatch style study, but one with homework, indepth questions, sharing in groups, and then a lecture by an experienced, trained lay person. With all those things in place, and most importantly, a willingness to learn and know, it becomes a much easier read. I will finish with this - I went there knowing NOTHING and came out a changed person. Certainly still far from perfect, but definitely changed.

There is a study just like the one I refer to right in The Villages. If anyone is interested in knowing more about it, please feel free to pm me.

Abbey. What ever contributed to make you who you are is undoubtedly a good thing. You are one of the finest humans I have met. And all Christians are challenged to spread the Gospel (i.e. the word of God, Sacred Scriptures, The Bible, the faith)

EVEN if they have to use words.

You don't need to. You walk the walk.

[Abby10]

Abbey. What ever contributed to make you who you are is undoubtedly a good thing. You are one of the finest humans I have met. And all Christians are challenged to spread the Gospel (i.e. the word of God, Sacred Scriptures, The Bible, the faith)

EVEN if they have to use words.

You don't need to. You walk the walk.

You are way too kind and I am truly humbled by your words.

[dewilson58]

Thank you Martin Luther.

[My Post]

Weren't some books taken out of the Bible that used to be in? And are they still available to be read if one wants?

[manaboutown]

Weren't some books taken out of the Bible that used to be in? And are they still available to be read if one wants?

I for one would like to know about what was written in the Dead Sea Scrolls!

25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls @ Century One Bookstore (http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html)

[graciegirl]

Weren't some books taken out of the Bible that used to be in? And are they still available to be read if one wants?

Short answer; Catholic Bible 73 King James 66

Books of the Bible - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible)

[PennBF]

I guess my question may be unclear. I am confident the Catholic Religion has a bible. I think when going to church the Missal is what is usually carried rather than a Bible and the average home does not have a "bible" as it is a practice for the Priest to provide the various translations of the scripture? I understand some scripture is included in the Mass, etc. Given all of this I am curious as to why the Priest is left to translate the scripture for the followers. In a discussion with an ex-Nun it was pointed out that Catholics are not directed toward reading the Bible. Assuming the Nun was correct my questions are (1) is this true and (2) Why. Just curious?:)

[graciegirl]

I guess my question may be unclear. I am confident the Catholic Religion has a bible. I think when going to church the Missal is what is usually carried rather than a Bible and the average home does not have a "bible" as it is a practice for the Priest to provide the various translations of the scripture? I understand some scripture is included in the Mass, etc. Given all of this I am curious as to why the Priest is left to translate the scripture for the followers. In a discussion with an ex-Nun it was pointed out that Catholics are not directed toward reading the Bible. Assuming the Nun was correct my questions are (1) is this true and (2) Why. Just curious?:)

WHY don't you drop in at the Bible study that is offered twice a week at St. Timothy's? No one will ask you who you are and why you are there or what church you came from.

The priest is not "left to translate the scriptures for the followers" anymore that the pastor of a protestant church is. They are both leaders and teachers and very versed in liturgy. No one keeps the Bible from Catholics. I worked at Catholic Supply all during College and I sold many a Daily Missal and many a Sunday Missal and many Catholic Bibles. There may not have been in the past the emphasis on Bible study for laity but that is changing. Vatican two was a huge sea change in the Catholic church. It isn't the church of forty years ago or perhaps the one you THINK you know or your wife knew. Not even the one Abbey left. I am not trying to say it is perfect but there are many, many Catholics who live in The Villages that love their faith. I may not be a good example, but there are many who are good people, quietly living and doing good things and preparing for the end of their lives.

P.S. I doubt you will find a priest leading the Bible Study at St. Tims. It will probably be a lay person.

Every Catholic home I know has a Bible. It usually is a wedding gift. Below is our Bible, my daily missal and my wedding missal.

[billethkid]

I guess my question may be unclear. I am confident the Catholic Religion has a bible. I think when going to church the Missal is what is usually carried rather than a Bible and the average home does not have a "bible" as it is a practice for the Priest to provide the various translations of the scripture? I understand some scripture is included in the Mass, etc. Given all of this I am curious as to why the Priest is left to translate the scripture for the followers. In a discussion with an ex-Nun it was pointed out that Catholics are not directed toward reading the Bible. Assuming the Nun was correct my questions are (1) is this true and (2) Why. Just curious?:)

No bible at home? Where did that come from. I'd make a sizeable wager on that one.

Having gone to a catholic college and taken more credits in theology than most, I can safely tell all the bible was required.

I think the discussion is swayed by semantics/context/bias (not negative or any malice intended; just my observation)....does it matter how the content of the bible is used/applied?

[PennBF]

I am sorry my question is being so confused. I have great respect for Catholicism and had a question regarding the Bible in the Catholic family. We had some wonderful Catholic Clergy as close friends. In fact one was a well known Monsignor and I grew up as a child in the lower grades playing with the Priests in the Seminary in Callicoon New York. We were married in the Catholic Church and so on. There should be no reluctance to ask questions. Anyone who worked in the education field should understand. I have never received a good answer to my question. What was the geneses of the practice and is it true the practice is still part of the faith? :ohdear:

[PennBF]

Given this is leading to more negative to faith than positive I believe this thread should be closed

[tomwed]

Take a look at the Baltimore Catechism. 1941 edition This is what we studied. We knew it by heart.

It brings back good memories.

[dewilson58]

I am sorry my question is being so confused. I have great respect for Catholicism and had a question regarding the Bible in the Catholic family. We had some wonderful Catholic Clergy as close friends. In fact one was a well known Monsignor and I grew up as a child in the lower grades playing with the Priests in the Seminary in Callicoon New York. We were married in the Catholic Church and so on. There should be no reluctance to ask questions. Anyone who worked in the education field should understand. I have never received a good answer to my question. What was the geneses of the practice and is it true the practice is still part of the faith? :ohdear:

could it be that catholic leaders made stuff up?? pay to get to heaven?? naming saints?? could it be??

[graciegirl]

could it be that catholic leaders made stuff up?? pay to get to heaven?? naming saints?? could it be??

Yes. It could be.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men.

I say enough slings and arrows towards us fish eaters.

For today.

Tomorrow we will discuss whether it is a sin for those other folks to dance.

Sleep well.

[Two Bills]

There was an innocuous little joke about Baptists, sex and dancing, and it has been 'dissapeared.'
Come on Mr. Censor. Get real!

[CFrance]

There was one incident in our parish when I was in grammar school. A priest molested a student. The next day, the seventh and eighth grade boys waited outside of church for the priest. They beat him so badly he had to go to the hospital and was never seen again. No more problems in the parish ever again
Yes, but what other parish did he go to and cause problems? That's the whole problem--hiding the problem. He should have been arrested.

[CFrance]

I am sorry my question is being so confused. I have great respect for Catholicism and had a question regarding the Bible in the Catholic family. We had some wonderful Catholic Clergy as close friends. In fact one was a well known Monsignor and I grew up as a child in the lower grades playing with the Priests in the Seminary in Callicoon New York. We were married in the Catholic Church and so on. There should be no reluctance to ask questions. Anyone who worked in the education field should understand. I have never received a good answer to my question. What was the geneses of the practice and is it true the practice is still part of the faith? :ohdear:
I thought I answered your question in post #69. At least the genesis part.


For the other part of your question, I quote from Why don’t Catholics read the Bible? (https://cruxnow.com/faith/2015/11/17/why-dont-catholics-read-the-bible/)


"Like Evangelicals, Catholics also use the Scripture to determine doctrine and moral principles - it’s just that the Catholic lay person or pastor doesn’t do so on his own. As Paul gave Timothy the apostolic authority to “rightly divide the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) (http://www.usccb.org/bible/2tm/2:15), so Catholics believe their bishops have inherited the authority of the apostles to teach doctrinal and moral truth faithfully.
They base this belief on St. Paul’s clear instructions to Timothy, “the things you have heard me say … entrust to reliable men so that they may in turn teach others” (2 Timothy 2:1 - 2 (http://www.usccb.org/bible/2tm/2:1)). Therefore, it is the bishops - living, praying, and working in a direct line from the apostles - who use the Bible to determine Christian doctrine and moral principles. That Catholic doctrine and moral teaching is biblically-based is easy to see. Try reading any official Catholic teaching documents and you will find they are - and always have been - permeated and upheld with Scripture."

[Boomer]

After much soul searching and a few years of internal debate, I left Catholicism and joined another denomination 22 years ago, before the abuse scandals started to surface in the early 2000's. After spending the first 35 years of my life as a practicing Catholic, I did not wake up one morning and say, "I think I'm going to join a different denomination today." While I really liked my parish and singing in their large choir, I was having a hard time reconciling my disagreements with certain Catholic teachings. So I voted with my feet.

Ironically it was a former friend of mine who hadn't attended any church in several years who stood up in a restaurant while we were supposed to be eating and said I was "going to hell" for joining another denomination. My answer to her was "Will I be in the same hell as the pedophile priests, or is there a separate hell for former RC members who join another denomination?" This same friend also told me I was "going to hell" for eating meat on Friday during Lent when we were students at Loyola University in the early 1980's.

The congregation I joined in 1996 is still my church home today. About 1/2 of the congregation are former RC members. Our pastor was an RC priest up until about 13 years ago. And the Presiding Bishop of my church, Michael Curry, gave the sermon at the wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle this past May. Presiding Bishop Curry was diagnosed with prostate cancer about a month ago. My congregation and all Episcopalians are keeping Presiding Bishop Curry in our prayers. Fortunately his prognosis for a full recovery looks good, according to reports his office has released.



I know several former Catholics — and former Lutherans— who have found comfort and community in the Episcopal Church.

(I have a good friend who lovingly calls the Episcopal Church “Catholic Light” or “Diet Catholic.” And that works just fine for many who have found the Episcopal Church after growing up in other denominations, not just Catholic.

I understand your choice of change.

Ecumenical Boomer :)

[tomwed]

Someone pointed this out to me not too long ago. The Rabbi may be the smartest person in the Village. When you are smart there is a very good chance your children will benefit.
The Priest may also be the smartest person in the Village too.

but...........

[manaboutown]

I grew up an Episcopalian. My mother played the organ for services when I was quite young so of course we were regular attendees. I was an acolyte (altar boy) for some years. Ours was "low church" although once in a while I went to a service in the cathedral which was more "high church". Our church youth group during my high school years was fantastic!

Because of my upbringing as an Episcopalian I find myself very comfortable at services (masses) in Roman Catholic cathedrals and churches. Over the years I have known several Roman Catholics who became Episcopalians.

Sadly for the vast majority of Episcopalians things started to go bad in 1958 when some extremist fringe groups hijacked the upper echelon of the church from its mainstream congregants. Today the church has drifted so far away from its historic basic tenets that I no longer identify myself as an Episcopalian.

[dewilson58]

Back to the original question...........

I am interested in opinions regarding why those complaints by the nuns have never surfaced? Your thoughts

Just like in Business, Hollywood, Government, etc., ............. Intimidation, Embarrassment, Fear and Money kept these events from going public.

[graciegirl]

///

[Edjkoz]

Yes, but what other parish did he go to and cause problems? That's the whole problem--hiding the problem. He should have been arrested.

Agreed but we could only solve our problem, not the problems of the world. We were still in grammar school

[retiredguy123]

Agreed but we could only solve our problem, not the problems of the world. We were still in grammar school
Well, but now that you are no longer in grammar school, apparently you have still not solved the problems of the world.

[CFrance]

I know several former Catholics — and former Lutherans— who have found comfort and community in the Episcopal Church.

(I have a good friend who lovingly calls the Episcopal Church “Catholic Light” or “Diet Catholic.” And that works just fine for many who have found the Episcopal Church after growing up in other denominations, not just Catholic.

I understand your choice of change.

Ecumenical Boomer :)
I happen to agree with you on this one. I skip over to the Episcopal church whenever possible. I can "get" my husband to go to a liberal Presbyterian church, so that's where our membership is and where most of my community work has been done in the past. But if I want spiritual inspiration, I go Episcopalian. In my heart I am an Episcopalian. It is indeed "Catholic Light," but in the right degree for me.

I don't know anything about an Episcopal split in 1958. I was too young to know about church politics. I only know about the most recent one, where those who were against ordaining gays split from the church. Fortunately, my two Episcopal churches (Muskegon, MI, and Key West, FL) supported the change.

[Boomer]

I happen to agree with you on this one. I skip over to the Episcopal church whenever possible. I can "get" my husband to go to a liberal Presbyterian church, so that's where our membership is and where most of my community work has been done in the past. But if I want spiritual inspiration, I go Episcopalian. In my heart I am an Episcopalian. It is indeed "Catholic Light," but in the right degree for me.

I don't know anything about an Episcopal split in 1958. I was too young to know about church politics. I only know about the most recent one, where those who were against ordaining gays split from the church. Fortunately, my two Episcopal churches (Muskegon, MI, and Key West, FL) supported the change.


Hey, CFrance,

I do not know what happened in 1958 either. I was still in elementary school and worrying about those frizzy, Tonette perms my mom kept giving me. With those perms, and my big, cat eye glasses, and too many teeth, I had enough to worry about back then. I just know, all too well, how things are across so many denominations now.

And I agree with you about the beauty of the Episcopal services. I like”Catholic Light” too. :)

[graciegirl]

I happen to agree with you on this one. I skip over to the Episcopal church whenever possible. I can "get" my husband to go to a liberal Presbyterian church, so that's where our membership is and where most of my community work has been done in the past. But if I want spiritual inspiration, I go Episcopalian. In my heart I am an Episcopalian. It is indeed "Catholic Light," but in the right degree for me.

I don't know anything about an Episcopal split in 1958. I was too young to know about church politics. I only know about the most recent one, where those who were against ordaining gays split from the church. Fortunately, my two Episcopal churches (Muskegon, MI, and Key West, FL) supported the change.

Episcopal Church (United States - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_(United_States))

Sez here less than two million members? Is that right?

[manaboutown]

Episcopal Church (United States - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_(United_States))

Sez here less than two million members? Is that right?

As of 2016 according to your citation in Wikipedia US membership had declined to 1,745,156 folks claiming membership in the church. The trend likely has continued downward as it has since at least 1965. BTW the actual attendees (seats in pews) tends to run only about a third of the membership - 570,454 in 2016.

[CFrance]

Episcopal Church (United States - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_(United_States))

Sez here less than two million members? Is that right?
I have no idea. I think Presbyterians have even fewer. But number of members has never factored into my churchgoing decisions!:pray:

[Boomer]

Mainstream denominations are dwindling in attendance across the board. When I was growing up, I had to be in Sunday School unless I was running a fever. The times have changed as people question so many things and as attitudes change about social issues and about who is “worthy” of God's Love.

Yes, Gracie and manaboutown, the Episcopal Church is probably the most open-minded of the Protestant denominations.

Protestants! It is like a cafeteria! I know of at least 3 different kinds of Lutherans. There are probably more. The ELCA ordains women and has open communion for all Christians, while the Wisconsin Synod and the Missouri Synod do not. The church on 466 in TV is ELCA. The other synods are in TV, too.

The United Church of Christ split over the issue of gay marriage. Part of the UCC was in the Congregational Church which has roots with the Pilgrims. It is an old, old denomination.

The Presbyterians seem to get along pretty nicely, but they have probably had their issues, too. I don’t know.

Some of those Episcopalians stomped out and into a different version of the Anglican Church.

I could go on and on. But my point is — they don’t call us Protestants for nuthin’. If we want a church community, we can find a denomination that suits who we are — mostly.

(I grew up in the Congregational Church. I remember singing, “Yes, Jesus Loves Me.” But as an adult, I have to ask myself, — “But would He like me?”)

[PennBF]

There is a rather small (abt 2500 Students) school in Western Pennsylvania. It is what is known as Coventor Presbyterian which means it is a strict school. All students must attend Chapel twice a week, there was no smoking, no dancing no Frat or Sort'ies in 1953 and it was like stepping back into the early years. They had a football team but restrictions on the amount of financial assistance from the school. The on going statement was "You may leave Geneva but Geneva will never leave you". Their bible Professor was brought in from Scotland and you were required to take 2 years of Bible to graduate. If you ask a Presbyterian what is the difference between them and a Methodist most cannot answer the question. Thought if you were going to go to the Presbyterian Church it may help to know some of the background. (Basic difference one believes in "predestination' while the other believes in "free will". There are others but that is a key one.)
I was not going to participate in this Thread again as it became "contentious" and at our ages we don't need that. Life is too good in The Villages to get tangled up in negative things. :popcorn:

[CFrance]

There is a rather small (abt 2500 Students) school in Western Pennsylvania. It is what is known as Coventor Presbyterian which means it is a strict school. All students must attend Chapel twice a week, there was no smoking, no dancing no Frat or Sort'ies in 1953 and it was like stepping back into the early years. They had a football team but restrictions on the amount of financial assistance from the school. The on going statement was "You may leave Geneva but Geneva will never leave you". Their bible Professor was brought in from Scotland and you were required to take 2 years of Bible to graduate. If you ask a Presbyterian what is the difference between them and a Methodist most cannot answer the question. Thought if you were going to go to the Presbyterian Church it may help to know some of the background. (Basic difference one believes in "predestination' while the other believes in "free will". There are others but that is a key one.)
I was not going to participate in this Thread again as it became "contentious" and at our ages we don't need that. Life is too good in The Villages to get tangled up in negative things. :popcorn:
My neighbor across the street in Pittsburgh went to Geneva College. Her parents said they would pay for all three children's college educations provided they went to Geneva College. She and her husband turned down the offer. Allegheny County in Pittsburgh had the largest number of Presbyterians in the entire state. However, that kind of "strangling" faith was not present in the modern day Presbyterian church. The only place I found that kind of Presbyterianism was in the deep south. Some of the churches were quite evangelical in nature, which is not the Presby I know. Edit: I do not mean at all to say that the evangelical faith is "strangling." I only know one kind of Presbyterianism from another.


I don't find this thread all that contentious.

[manaboutown]

Historically many abusive and alcoholic priest were sent to New Mexico. My former wife was raised Roman Catholic and educated K-12 in parochial schools in New Mexico. She has told me stories of which priests she learned to avoid as "they liked to past us little girls on our bottoms.". This was in a small town and I am sure the parishioners were in awe of and cowed by the clergy so nothing was done, at least way back then.

Report: Pennsylvania priests accused of sex abuse sent to New Mexico | Local News | santafenewmexican.com (http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/report-pennsylvania-priests-accused-of-sex-abuse-sent-to-new/article_8e9e95f3-136e-573a-af50-3ec5ec6c917a.html)

SCANDALS IN THE CHURCH: THE TREATMENT PROGRAM; Abusive Priests Are Varied, but Treatable, Center Found - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/26/us/scandals-church-treatment-program-abusive-priests-are-varied-but-treatable.html)

[dewilson58]

As of 2016 according to your citation in Wikipedia US membership had declined to 1,745,156 folks claiming membership in the church. The trend likely has continued downward as it has since at least 1965. BTW the actual attendees (seats in pews) tends to run only about a third of the membership - 570,454 in 2016.

1/3 on a good day.

[graciegirl]

In Protestant churches...see here;

The 15 Largest Protestant Denominations in the United States (https://www.christianpost.com/news/the-15-largest-protestant-denominations-in-the-united-states-92731/)

I don't think anyone goes to church because of these numbers but I am surprised. I would have thought Lutherans or Methodists had the biggest membership.

[manaboutown]

1/3 on a good day.

Yes, unfortunately. If one takes Christmas and Easter season services out that number would no doubt drop considerably if not precipitously.

I knew one priest quite well as an adult. He had started out assisting in the church in which I grew up and had run our high school youth group. Anyway, every once in a while he would come over to my house to unload about his problems - and he had them! Occasionally I critiqued a sermon for him. One he proposed to give on Christmas Eve admonished parishioners for not attending services regularly but only on special occasions. I told him that message would turn folks off and drive them away, that he needed to entice them to come back in the following weeks, not dress them down. He stuck with what he had written. He was a bit of a whiner, oh well...

It is not an easy life for a parish priest or his family. The son of our first priest committed suicide while in his teens. He was a nice kid; I knew him well and did not see that coming.

My best friend in college was "a son of a Bishop". lol I used to introduce him to others that way and we both got a laugh out of it. His father oversaw the Canterbury Club on our college campus and was a great guy. He used to try his sermons out on his son and me. He wrote them from scratch and they were good! They were not canned sermons.

[manaboutown]

In Protestant churches...see here;

The 15 Largest Protestant Denominations in the United States (https://www.christianpost.com/news/the-15-largest-protestant-denominations-in-the-united-states-92731/)

I don't think anyone goes to church because of these numbers but I am surprised. I would have thought Lutherans or Methodists had the biggest membership.

The Baptists far outnumber other protestant denominations.

I have attended "nondenominational" megachurches in both SoCal and NM. The one in NM had once been a Baptist church but had officially gone "nondenominational". In fact I had been baptized in it while it was a Baptist Church (even though I had been baptized as an infant in the Episcopal Church). It truly was a wondrous experience. Anyway, both "nondenominational" churches felt Baptist to me so I checked out where the ministers had attended seminary. Dallas Theological Seminary in almost every case. Bingo!
Dallas Theological Seminary - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Theological_Seminary)

[PennBF]

In some cases the Methodist Minister and his family sacrificed a lot for the church. The Methodist Ministers were known as Circuit Riders. They had multiple Churches and in the early days rode horses church to church on Sunday's. In Western Pennsylvania where the Parshioners were typically poor the family was paid in donated meat and veg's. In most cases the wives were called on to work as hard as the Minister. Since it was the practice for the Pastor to move about every 3-4 years the children had to adjust to new schools and new friends on that same schedule This provides a good picture as to how the whole family was called on to be supportive to their father. I am not surprised the Baptist faith has the greatest number of Churches. They have always been popular in the South. A significant Methodist school in the south is Duke University in North Carolina. We should all be proud of our Churches and Faith regardless of its basis.:ho:

[Moderator]

This thread has morphed far away from its original topic. It is closed. Please start a new thread to continue the discussion of different religions/denominations.

Moderator