Failing Storm Sewers

[refeik]

My career as a civil engineer and being in charge many projects
containing storm sewer systems tells me something the failures should not be happening and we haven't been given the rest of the story. We still today have storm sewer systems working just fine with many more than 50 years old. I can only conclude that storm sewers less than 20 years old , many only installed just a few years ago has to be either faulty material or contractors doing inferior work. So now who is paying the huge bill to make necessary corrections, folks, it is you and I. The funds will be tax moneys from the coffers of Sumter County.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Substandard materials and substandard workmanship on the storm sewers just like the roads here; BV, 446, 466a - all the main roads - are really starting to loose that 1" top layer of asphalt and the repair asphalt that is being put in those areas doesn't appear to be much better.

[graciegirl]

This is the time of year of heavy rain and possible sinkholes. We aren't in Kansas anymore. The ground under us is sand and limestone. It drops, pipes break.

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/have-any-villages-ever-flooded-207835/index4.html?highlight=flooded+street

[justjim]

OP, I agree with you the storm sewers in The Villages are not that old and the failures make you wonder about the quality of construction. Here in Florida the soil makeup and amount of annual rainfall could present special construction challenges that could warrant a revisit of construction specifications for storm sewers. I suspect we haven’t heard the last of this issue in The Villages.

[graciegirl]

Substandard materials and substandard workmanship on the storm sewers just like the roads here; BV, 446, 466a - all the main roads - are really starting to loose that 1" top layer of asphalt and the repair asphalt that is being put in those areas doesn't appear to be much better.

Here is the Sumter County number for road repair;

Road & Bridge | Sumter County, FL - Official Website (https://www.sumtercountyfl.gov/217/Road-Bridge)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What failures? Can someone provide a link to an article or something? Please remember some of us haven't yet purchased a home in TV and are using the ToTV forums to learn as much as we can before making that decision.

[ColdNoMore]

Keep in mind how the whole scam works.

In this state a developer can build infrastructure, have it appraised by those it put in place, get paid for it...then hand off the maintenance to the local entity (usually county).

Consequently, where is the incentive from the developer to ensure high quality in the infrastructure for the long term (versus finding the cheapest contractor to build it), when they've already been paid for them...and others are left to pay for any shoddy workmanship in the future?

Community development district - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_development_district)

While the developer controls the BoS, he or she may direct the board to purchase the common property from the developer at highly inflated values determined by special appraisers, who use an income approach appraisal method rather than the standard, cost approach.

This is legal because the appraisal is approved by the BoS. The district manager, hired by the BoS, may administrate for the interests of the developer rather than the residents.

[Nucky]

Something as simple as leftover concrete from a primary job being used to make the pipes or concrete with to much water added or over the time limit can turn the strength of the concrete used to the strength of topsoil. I'm not stating that this happened but if the pipes are failing this is a possible area to look at. There probably is very little quality control to be certain that things are on the up and up.

Check out the Big Dig on Google. Very interesting for sure.

[graciegirl]

Sewer lines breaking is not a common happening here. AND I am shocked that anyone would use the word SCAM.

[skip0358]

What storm sewers are failing ??

[graciegirl]

What storm sewers are failing ??

There was a break south of 466A last week and now we have panic.

I am so tired of pot stirring...everywhere...

[skip0358]

There was a break south of 466A last week and now we have panic.

I am so tired of pot stirring...everywhere...

If that's the one that was on Pinellas I thought they said that was a lightning strike ?

[birdawg]

If that's the one that was on Pinellas I thought they said that was a lightning strike ?
That was Hillsborough.

[graciegirl]

That was Hillsborough.

The one south was a lightning strike and the one in the online news was broken during a cleaning. Sumter county is putting up residents at a hotel while being repaired. Is it in Winifred?

[spring_chicken]

Oh it's not just Pinellas. Ask the folks in Winifred.
"Village of Winifred residents are being put up at a local hotel during the disruption of their lives while work takes place on their street. Rainey Construction on Thursday began the repair work on a stormwater drain pipe that failed and caused two large holes and a sunken area in a resident’s front yard. "

At some point, people will realize that some things being called "an act of nature" (sinkhole) were actually due to shoddy construction. The "act of nature" claim releases them from liability.

[refeik]

Substandard materials and substandard workmanship on the storm sewers just like the roads here; BV, 446, 466a - all the main roads - are really starting to loose that 1" top layer of asphalt and the repair asphalt that is being put in those areas doesn't appear to be much better.

I agree 100%. I expressed my opinion to the FDOT (Florida Highways) about the condition of the nearly new 301 improvement between Oxford and Wild Wood. In my career, I also supervised miles of resurfacing using a asphalt mixture. In my 38 years of active working, this has to be the worse resurfacing project I have ever seen. If I had supervised a project this bad, I would have been fired. If you travel this section of highway. make sure your seat belt is fastened.

[refeik]

There was a break south of 466A last week and now we have panic.

I am so tired of pot stirring...everywhere...

Have you been away or what. We now have Villagers being lodged at a local motel (paid by Sumter County) while their front yards are being excavated.

[graciegirl]

Have you been away or what. We now have Villagers being lodged at a local motel (paid by Sumter County) while their front yards are being excavated.

Read post 14.

[skip0358]

Winifred is not new by any means and the sewer system installation was done by the county. It broke its being fixed and the people are being put up at the County’s expense. Stuff happen

[ColdNoMore]

Winifred is not new by any means and the sewer system installation was done by the county. It broke its being fixed and the people are being put up at the County’s expense. Stuff happen

So it's different than the other CDD's and wasn't built by the developer...then sold?

Link/proof?

[Bay Kid]

Things do happen, but it is repairable and nobody was hurt.

[billethkid]

A very notable difference with the "underground" throughout TV is that the base is little more than compacted sand. Brought in by the truckload to establish a specified level.

And we all know what happens to sand....yes even compacted sand when exposed to ANY flow rate of water.

In my humble opinion.

[refeik]

Winifred is not new by any means and the sewer system installation was done by the county. It broke its being fixed and the people are being put up at the County’s expense. Stuff happen

Let's get your post corrected. The county does not install the original storm sewers. How can a storm sewer be fixed when it is being fixed ?? Also and important, It it being done at the County's expense, but the "County" is YOU !! It is your tax money !!

[PennBF]

I understand the water pipes broke and nothing was done quickly so the water leaked and set up a "sink hole" which they are now trying to fix. As you can see it was able to spread to a few attached property possibly because of the delay?. There was a similar problem in Winifred and they tackled it right away and it did not cause a sink hole. It goes to show if a problem is not handled promptly it can lead to bigger problems . Of course another question is "why 2 water breaks within the same Village in such a short time"?:ho:

[skip0358]

Let's get your post corrected. The county does not install the original storm sewers. How can a storm sewer be fixed when it is being fixed ?? Also and important, It it being done at the County's expense, but the "County" is YOU !! It is your tax money !!

Stuff happens, it's being taken care of that's all that matters.Don't know where you lived but we had quite a few water main breaks on LI & NY City. At least the people are being put up regardless of whose paying for it!
FYI if it's a 6" main 800 GPM flow , 8" 1600 GPM flow at minimum of 50 PSI so it doesn't take long for a mess to be made. Probably a minimum of 1/2 hr. for someone to come out and then shut the main down. So think of how much water flowed before it was shut down.

[ColdNoMore]

Stuff happens, it's being taken care of that's all that matters.Don't know where you lived but we had quite a few water main breaks on LI & NY City. At least the people are being put up regardless of whose paying for it!
FYI if it's a 6" main 800 GPM flow , 8" 1600 GPM flow at minimum of 50 PSI so it doesn't take long for a mess to be made. Probably a minimum of 1/2 hr. for someone to come out and then shut the main down. So think of how much water flowed before it was shut down.

You seem to be totally confused.

First you said the county built it...which isn't true.

Then you talk about water mains (water pressure)...when this issue is simply a storm drain.

There are already some articles you can find with a Google search, that explains what happened and the timeline...if you want to get up to speed and understand the facts.

As for who's paying for it, our taxes are paying for what was built by the developer (then sold)...that has obviously failed decades prematurely.

I, for one...don't think that's OK.

[graciegirl]

I can't recall seeing any sand being brought in here. A lot of us get a kick out of watching the construction of big areas.

I don't think it is because the developer didn't do it right or Rainey either.

I don't think this is a huge issue. I think it is summer and the rains came. And there is substrata that shifts and collapses.

[NotGolfer]

I can't recall seeing any sand being brought in here. A lot of us get a kick out of watching the construction of big areas.

I don't think it is because the developer didn't do it right or Rainey either.

I don't think this is a huge issue. I think it is summer and the rains came. And there is substrata that shifts and collapses.

Yes, yes and yes!!

[JoMar]

You seem to be totally confused.

First you said the county built it...which isn't true.

Then you talk about water mains (water pressure)...when this issue is simply a storm drain.

There are already some articles you can find with a Google search, that explains what happened and the timeline...if you want to get up to speed and understand the facts.

As for who's paying for it, our taxes are paying for what was built by the developer (then sold)...that has obviously failed decades prematurely.

I, for one...don't think that's OK.

So what's your solution?

[ColdNoMore]

So what's your solution?

1. Contract with a nationally recognized engineering firm that is not beholden to the county or developer...to investigate the mode of failure.

2. If shoddy engineering/workmanship/materials is found to be the cause, take legal action against the entity that built it and make them pay for the repairs...not tax money.

3. Start internal inspections on other storm drain systems sharing the same characteristics...of the ones that have already failed.

[Chatbrat]

infrastructure failing in a fairly new community--faulty construction---Morse Bridge, and now storm water sewers--a house near mine-- 3 owners and they haven't been able to get green full grass coverage--gotta be lousy top soil

[skip0358]

I think it's amazing every time something happens it's the developers fault. He didn't build all the other areas in Florida where pipes are breaking. In this case storm drains. Ever watch the news and see all the breaks throughout Florida? The only thing in common is the soil in the ground. The news the other night showed the pictures of the road that's still closed since the pipes broke down by Orlando about a month ago said should be about 2 more weeks.

[Chatbrat]

Here we know the age of the system we don't know the age of pipes in Orlando--

[graciegirl]

infrastructure failing in a fairly new community--faulty construction---Morse Bridge, and now storm water sewers--a house near mine-- 3 owners and they haven't been able to get green full grass coverage--gotta be lousy top soil

Karst Features and Hydrogeology in West-central Florida-A Field Perspective (https://water.usgs.gov/ogw/karst/kigconference/abt_karstfeatures.htm)

Why Are There So Many Sinkholes in Florida? - The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/08/why-are-there-so-many-sinkholes-in-florida/378869/)

CHAPTER 11 STORM DRAINAGE
| 2017 Florida Building Code - Plumbing, Sixth Edition | ICC publicACCESS (https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/FPC2017/chapter-11-storm-drainage)

[PennBF]

I think it is being confused to believe the problem in question is sink holes in Florida. I hope most who have questions on this are now aware of the reasons. THE real question is why are the water supply pipes failing. In the case of Winifred there were two within the last about 2-3 months within in a few blocks of each other. One was dealt with immediately and it did not expand into a larger problem and the second had delayed attention and it turned into a sink hole allegedly because the water continued to drain within the open hole until the problem became a sink hole. I am not an engineer but never believed in coincidences. In a typical "City" you would have a charter, an organization controlled by statutes and laws for the purport of protecting citizens of the city. Another view is that in the case of Condo's they are under Florida Statue 718 which is MUCH more strict than the statues governing The Villages. As I have said a number of times we love the Villages but are not blind to the loopholes for the Developer and Contractors.:popcorn:

[graciegirl]

I think it is being confused to believe the problem in question is sink holes in Florida. I hope most who have questions on this are now aware of the reasons. THE real question is why are the water supply pipes failing. In the case of Winifred there were two within the last about 2-3 months within in a few blocks of each other. One was dealt with immediately and it did not expand into a larger problem and the second had delayed attention and it turned into a sink hole allegedly because the water continued to drain within the open hole until the problem became a sink hole. I am not an engineer but never believed in coincidences. In a typical "City" you would have a charter, an organization controlled by statutes and laws for the purport of protecting citizens of the city. Another view is that in the case of Condo's they are under Florida Statue 718 which is MUCH more
strict than the statues governing The Villages. As I have said a number of times we love the Villages but are not blind to the loopholes for the Developer and Contractors.:popcorn:

All things here in The Villages are built to code. The areas in and around us and under us are prone to collapse and will take drain pipes occasionally.


What would the motivation be for a builder with an excellent reputation to put in substandard drainpipes? It seems the Morses and the Raineys have long term goals for this area and will be building well into the future. They have made more money than their families could spend for generations. They still work. Is it because of greed? Or perhaps to continue to build an excellent place unlike any other on this earth? To continue to keep employed the thousands of people whose livelihoods rest on this business effort? Perhaps because there is a huge market for baby boomers with ten thousand retiring each day for the next fourteen years? Why would such smart people do something underhanded when they could build to code????


I am so tired of the Morse bashing. I think it is motivated by jealousy and misinformation and other ugly stuff.

[refeik]

Stuff happens, it's being taken care of that's all that matters.Don't know where you lived but we had quite a few water main breaks on LI & NY City. At least the people are being put up regardless of whose paying for it!
FYI if it's a 6" main 800 GPM flow , 8" 1600 GPM flow at minimum of 50 PSI so it doesn't take long for a mess to be made. Probably a minimum of 1/2 hr. for someone to come out and then shut the main down. So think of how much water flowed before it was shut down.


The subject was storm sewers not water mains.

[skip0358]

The subject was storm sewers not water mains.

The one on the south side was a water main. Two post originally were tied together. Besides how much water from ALL the storm drains drain into the big pipe that failed? The storm drain pipe handles many storm drains. Having worked in the trenches for a good many years you'd be surprised what's down there and how easy the soil and the crushed stone sand base disappears. One little leak can create quite a crater under ground and then all of a sudden you have a break & collapse.

[Marathon Man]

I think it is being confused to believe the problem in question is sink holes in Florida. I hope most who have questions on this are now aware of the reasons. THE real question is why are the water supply pipes failing. In the case of Winifred there were two within the last about 2-3 months within in a few blocks of each other. One was dealt with immediately and it did not expand into a larger problem and the second had delayed attention and it turned into a sink hole allegedly because the water continued to drain within the open hole until the problem became a sink hole. I am not an engineer but never believed in coincidences. In a typical "City" you would have a charter, an organization controlled by statutes and laws for the purport of protecting citizens of the city. Another view is that in the case of Condo's they are under Florida Statue 718 which is MUCH more strict than the statues governing The Villages. As I have said a number of times we love the Villages but are not blind to the loopholes for the Developer and Contractors.:popcorn:

Are you suggesting that the building codes are different here than in Leesburg? Can you support that and define the 'loop holes'. Also, Community Development Districts are defined by Florida Chapter 190 law. If you have ever attended a meeting, you see Chapter 190 in force.

[CWGUY]

All things here in The Villages are built to code. The areas in and around us and under us are prone to collapse and will take drain pipes occasionally.


What would the motivation be for a builder with an excellent reputation to put in substandard drainpipes? It seems the Morses and the Raineys have long term goals for this area and will be building well into the future. They have made more money than their families could spend for generations. They still work. Is it because of greed? Or perhaps to continue to build an excellent place unlike any other on this earth? To continue to keep employed the thousands of people whose livelihoods rest on this business effort? Perhaps because there is a huge market for baby boomers with ten thousand retiring each day for the next fourteen years? Why would such smart people do something underhanded when they could build to code????


I am so tired of the Morse bashing. I think it is motivated by jealousy and misinformation and other ugly stuff.

GG - your head will feel better when you stop banging it against the wall. Ever hear the saying "Haters are gonna hate?" From the URBAN DICTIONARY:


Haters Gonna Hate
A colloquial saying. It means that people who don't like you will always find a reason to dislike you, no matter how stupid that reason may be.
:ho:

[graciegirl]

GG - your head will feel better when you stop banging it against the wall. Ever hear the saying "Haters are gonna hate?" From the URBAN DICTIONARY:


Haters Gonna Hate
A colloquial saying. It means that people who don't like you will always find a reason to dislike you, no matter how stupid that reason may be.
:ho:

Thank you. I needed that. :coolsmiley:

[JoMar]

1. Contract with a nationally recognized engineering firm that is not beholden to the county or developer...to investigate the mode of failure.

2. If shoddy engineering/workmanship/materials is found to be the cause, take legal action against the entity that built it and make them pay for the repairs...not tax money.

3. Start internal inspections on other storm drain systems sharing the same characteristics...of the ones that have already failed.

Who should contract? The residents? And any "National" firm has no standing in FL so it would be their opinion which could only be expressed as to it's compliance with local codes.

Who should pay for the legal action? The residents? If the "National" firm found it in compliance what is your next step?

Who should pay for the internal inspections? The residents?

As I understand it, when the infrastructure is completed the County inspects it before it is covered to insure it meets code. If anything doesn't, it is repaired or changed. If there are issues then it's a County issue and if the codes need to be changed that's where those with the solutions should start. Of course you would need to hire someone (assume your "National" firm) to try and prove the codes are faulty.

[PennBF]

Was not comparing a town (Leesburg) but rather Condo Law against other statues. I will not do the homework for someone to understand the difference but leave that to the person who raises the question. I do find it interesting that to raise a question regarding "controls and accountability" to be referred to as a "hater". The basis for being objective is to have an "open mind". There is a book "The Believing Brain" by Michael Shermer which proposes that a person first determines what they want to believe and then go about the process of proving this belief. Sound familiar?:ho:

[Mikeod]

Was not comparing a town (Leesburg) but rather Condo Law against other statues. I will not do the homework for someone to understand the difference but leave that to the person who raises the question. I do find it interesting that to raise a question regarding "controls and accountability" to be referred to as a "hater". The basis for being objective is to have an "open mind". There is a book "The Believing Brain" by Michael Shermer which proposes that a person first determines what they want to believe and then go about the process of proving this belief. Sound familiar?:ho:
I think the push back you see is not from a closed mind, but due to the immediate assumption among some posters that something was done not up to code, that the county allows the developer to circumvent regulations, that natural events could not be to blame, and use of words like "scam" to describe the developer's dealings. I like to wait until the real experts have evaluated the problem on site, than the keyboard experts who pontificate from afar.

[ColdNoMore]

I think it is being confused to believe the problem in question is sink holes in Florida. I hope most who have questions on this are now aware of the reasons. THE real question is why are the water supply pipes failing. In the case of Winifred there were two within the last about 2-3 months within in a few blocks of each other. One was dealt with immediately and it did not expand into a larger problem and the second had delayed attention and it turned into a sink hole allegedly because the water continued to drain within the open hole until the problem became a sink hole. I am not an engineer but never believed in coincidences. In a typical "City" you would have a charter, an organization controlled by statutes and laws for the purport of protecting citizens of the city. Another view is that in the case of Condo's they are under Florida Statue 718 which is MUCH more strict than the statues governing The Villages. As I have said a number of times we love the Villages but are not blind to the loopholes for the Developer and Contractors.:popcorn:

Yep! :agree:

[Marathon Man]

Here is something to consider.

It is indeed possible to be wealthy and honest at the same time. It is indeed possible to build a thriving business through good sound practices without greed, deception, or fraud. It is indeed possible for the grandchildren of a businessman to continue the business with the same sense of pride and honor as was shown in the early days.

[Chatbrat]

Remember most codes are the barest acceptable minimum, the Titanic had enough lifeboats per code @ the time

[BobnBev]

Here is something to consider.

It is indeed possible to be wealthy and honest at the same time. It is indeed possible to build a thriving business through good sound practices without greed, deception, or fraud. It is indeed possible for the grandchildren of a businessman to continue the business with the same sense of pride and honor as was shown in the early days.

Key word here is "possible". Sure, it's possible, albeit highly unlikely, in most cases anyways. JMHO.:popcorn:

[eyc234]

So you are saying that myself and many other Villagers that were successful, built thriving businesses and are financially well off are not honest. That is a pretty all encompassing group of people thru out the world that are well off but dishonest. I know that I have never shied away from making a dollar and saving a dollar but can emphatically say that it was all and still is done honestly and legally. That kind of statement that the well off are not honest or the poor are lazy is just the sort of thing that has this country with the issues it has now. Must be hard on you to see all the dishonest people that live in The Villages

[retiredguy123]

I am also an engineer and all of this is very interesting. However, I don't think hiring lawyers will result in any benefit to anyone except the lawyers.

[perrjojo]

Some seem to always be of the mindset that someone is out “to get me, cheat me, scam me”. Yes, those things happen but I don’t want to be a person who always assumes the worst. Some people like to believe that those who have “more” took it from them. I say the Universe provides enough for all. You will get what you choose to work for. Off soapbox now.

[JoMar]

Key word here is "possible". Sure, it's possible, albeit highly unlikely, in most cases anyways. JMHO.:popcorn:

Wow....not sure how to respond to that....:censored:

[JoMar]

So you are saying that myself and many other Villagers that were successful, built thriving businesses and are financially well off are not honest. That is a pretty all encompassing group of people thru out the world that are well off but dishonest. I know that I have never shied away from making a dollar and saving a dollar but can emphatically say that it was all and still is done honestly and legally. That kind of statement that the well off are not honest or the poor are lazy is just the sort of thing that has this country with the issues it has now. Must be hard on you to see all the dishonest people that live in The Villages

That will work..:)

[perrjojo]

Here is something to consider.

It is indeed possible to be wealthy and honest at the same time. It is indeed possible to build a thriving business through good sound practices without greed, deception, or fraud. It is indeed possible for the grandchildren of a businessman to continue the business with the same sense of pride and honor as was shown in the early days.
I really wish TOTV had a like button.

[Bogie Shooter]

What failures? Can someone provide a link to an article or something? Please remember some of us haven't yet purchased a home in TV and are using the ToTV forums to learn as much as we can before making that decision.

Don't base your decision on a few "pot stirrers" who are in the minority of Villagers. Or for that matter don't believe everything you read on here...…………………...

[My Post]

I think I have an Ike button somewhere.

[MSchad]

Wow....not sure how to respond to that....:censored:
I'll second that!

[NotGolfer]

I really wish TOTV had a like button.

Don't base your decision on a few "pot stirrers" who are in the minority of Villagers. Or for that matter don't believe everything you read on here...…………………...


BOTH echo my thoughts exactly!